It was just shocking to me that their 3rd base coach sent Castillo there. That is the single most bone-headed 3rd base coaching move I've seen this year.

320 Jason Johnson
--A sustained rebirth from Johnson would be a greater surprise than Chan Ho Park's 2008.

139 Eric Stults
--On paper, better than Johnson.

Billy Joel says that these are the time to remember, 'cause they will not last forever.

As much as it pains me to say this, Chan Ho probably warrants a mention as a starting candidate.

I wouldn't have guessed that Bills only trails Kevin Brown(?!?) in ERA+...how soon we forget.

3 - So does Kuo, for that matter, but I think the Dodgers may have resolved not to consider either for the rest of the year

Tony Jackson's coverage of the possible Maddux deal notes that Maddux's bad numbers are a product of playing for a bad team.

No mention (probably because he didn't research it) of how horrible Maddux has been away from Petco this year.

I had a dream last night that the Dodgers traded Andy Laroche for Esteban Loaiza and Matt Kemp for Chad Tracy.

Fitting to see Kuroda's ERA+ at almost exactly league-average. His up-and-down, great-one-start-horrible-the-next season has been driving me nuts, on both the Dodgers and my fantasy team.

3 - Why would it pain you to say that? Chan Ho has been great this season and every team is going to rely on more than the same five-man rotation to get them through the season. I am grateful that we have had some quality innings from Park, Stults and Johnson because players of their ilk are needed every season.

9 Because I still don't really believe in him and I haven't exactly been kind to him this year. Plus I considered Chan Ho to be somewhere around the number 12 starter this year, so I assumed we'd never see him.

When will you believe in him though, outta curiosity? September? (Or hopefully, October?) ;-)

3.5 hours to go folks. Go take a walk. We'll call you if anything happens.

10
Billy Joel asks (on Chan Ho's behalf), "What will it take til you believe in me, the way that I believe in you...?"

11 When his FIP and ERA actually are kind of close to each other. I'm still really scared his regression to the mean will happen at the worst possible time.

So how do you guys feel about my McDonald in August suggestion?

10 - That's too bad. I think we get caught up heaping too much support behind either great veterans or high ceiling young players. I don't think enough attention is paid to those journeymen that really do have value of the course of the season as we have seen. The team has to turn to somebody at various points during a season and I think it is great that we have gotten so much out of several guys who were not given a second thought at the beginning of the season.

14 I'm all for it, but doubtful it's going to happen. But maybe, if they don't end up acquiring Maddux after all and need a fresh arm at some point in August, it's possible. (But they might just call Stults back up for that.)

Sounds like the Griffey trade's a go. For two middling prospects, might be money involved. Could be his last chance for a ring (in a box).

14 I'm for it. We need to save some of Kershaw's innings for later.

15 The problem is that you don't really know when Chan Ho, Aaron Sele or Jose Lima is going to revert back to form. I just can't believe that journeymen suddenly figure it all out, the collapse is usually inevitable. Torre pulling Chan Ho from the rotation before it happens is a really great move.

14 I'd rather see McDonald make some August starts instead of Stults, or even Jason Johnson, but Brad Penny is the X factor. I'm hoping he can return in August, because we'll need him to be close to his old level of performance for the stretch run.

It would be interesting to see the ERA+ numbers from members of the bullpen, as well as some stat that shows the volatility/up and down starts from Kuroda. His ERA+ is right around league average, but he sure has taken a wild path of getting there.
vr, Xei

Disclaimer: This post was brought to you by Rootzoo.com where you can talk baseball and all sports with Billingsley fans and more... free!

14. Do we have an opening in the rotation? If we do then it's no worse than trading for Maddux.
vr, Xei

17 - I don't think it is about figuring it all out. I think it is about getting quality innings out of players that were summarily disregarded at a time when the team needs it. We are not looking for long-term projection out of these players, just short-term gain which we have gotten in spades.

FLAKE - Standard deviation of per-start SNVA for each pitcher. This was previously shown as the variance, and was used to compute the "flakiest" pitchers.

1. Hiroki Kuroda

Chan Ho Park's HR/inn. are about career-average. His K's are up there at 58 over 70 innings. Giving up a hit an inning. Solid control. Fastball's in the low 90s. Martin may or may not be impacting his staff in a positive way with his pitch calling. I don't see a reason to worry too much.

Park's ERA may finish in the low 3s instead of it's current 2.42 ERA, which will mean a few bumpy outings, but still better than his 4.2 career mark.

21 The problem is that these guys are known useless players. You can't predict how Brandon Webb is going to do in the short term, and you definately can't predict how some journeyman will do. Sometimes you end up with Chan Ho, sometimes you get Scott Erickson.

19 -

242 Hong-Chih Kuo
183 Chan Ho Park
252 Joe Beimel
139 Jonathan Broxton
159 Cory Wade
85 Brian Falkenborg
78 Ramon Troncoso
203 Takashi Saito
65 Scott Proctor
--- Scott Elbert

also, Park is facing lineups like the Padres', Giants', and Diamondbacks' fairly often. He can get those guys out.

22. Where did you find the list?
vr, Xei

23 Doesn't Chan Ho's fastball touch 94-97 MPH? In the past few years, his fastball's been junk, and it's nice to see him regain some of the strength and stuff that he had earlier in his career.

Some Greg Maddux home/away splits:

IP: 73.0/61.1
ERA: 2.84/6.02
OPSA: .649/.842
BABIP: .245/.353
K/BB: 2.85/2.83

His strikeout-to-walk ratio is almost identical at Petco or on the road. But look at that disparity in BABIP.

Might not be the worst acquisition, if Ned can get him cheaply enough.

24 - Clearly they have not been useless. Park was injured for several seasons and is now healthy and throwing with increased velocity. I see no reason to believe that he won't be effective for the rest of the season. Johnson and Stults are a likely not more than #5 starters but they have given us better than #5 results when called upon.

I wonder... would Maddux accept a role in the bullpen? He just seems like a valuable asset on so many other levels.

Griffey apparently OKed the deal to the ChiSox. I'm not sure how much he'll help Chicago, but I'm glad there's a chance we'll see Junior in the postseason this year.

25 It's kind of surprising how much higher Kuo and Beimel's ERA+'s are than Broxton's. I realize the guy's not quite at his usual pace, but he still has a very solid 3.18 normal ERA. What goes into ERA+ anyway?

I would picture Maddux as a pretty poor reliever. He doesn't come out like a house afire when he pitches.

I have a feeling we'll be calling the time as we get closer to 1pm, much like Vin Scully in Koufax's perfect game ("9:46pm...").

I picture Maddux as a pretty poor starter.

24 I would think that if Chan Ho was still the 'useless player' he was during his exile from Dodger Stadium, he'd have shown it by now. Surely, going into August, we've long since exited small sample size territory?

32 Quentin to the Dodgers for Pierre and Lowe

Maddux to the Dodgers for some C prospect

Chicago's log-jam in the outfield is fixed and they finally get that starting pitcher they've been looking for! ;)

14 Worth a shot. Provided there's a spot for him (Penny's not back, Kuroda is banged up, etc.) I have no objection to McDonald getting a shot.

33
It's just ERA adjusted for park effects and compared to the league. 100 is average.

maddux does have mildly better numbers early in the pitch count... but don't we all?

27 BP custom report.

36 Maddux looked like a fairly poor bet when we got him from the Cubs in '06 and he proved to be quite a spark. There could be something to the notion that he focuses a bit more when he's in the middle of a pennant race.

Brent,

I miss the Appetizer in PV. Their submarine sandwich was awesome, but the last time I went they no longer used the marinated lettuce in the Italian dressing...it changed the whole sandwich for me. I was very sad.

35 Every hour, on the hour, one of us does a Vin imitation of the countdown... who's with me?

Bottom line, I do not trust Kuroda, I'd trade him in a heartbeat if I could get return value. I think he has great abilities and if everything goes well, he's near perfect. But errors and freak happenings shake him too much. Maybe the phrase is "lose concentration" but whatever, his effectiveness is gone. Players used to call this "having rabbit ears". Broxton may, I say may, have the same problem, it is not uncommon. I remember a Dodger game, playoffs or World Series, where Burt Hooten blew up. He thought the umpire missed a call or two on him and he completely lost it, couldn't throw a strike at all. He never completed the first inning.

37 You can keep things up for a while if you're lucky. Kyle Kendrick went all of last year on fairy dust.

No Maddux. He will do to us what Glavin did to the Mets on the last day of'07.

47 - Then what is the problem? A while is better than nothing at all and it is not like we are placing the future of the franchise on their shoulders, we have other players for those honors.

45
It's 9:06am. One for one with Kevin Towers. Ned looks in, and here's his pitch. Aguasviva to the Padres!

Either the Dodgers just traded for Brett Favre, or I've gone bleary-eyed from watching too much ESPN.

14 - I listened to parts of McDonald's start last night and it sounded like he was really laboring. He had some command issues and gave up a lot of line drives but maybe it was just a bad outing because he had a pretty good July (in spite of a sharp decline in his k/bb). One thing to keep in mind is that he has already thrown 118 innings. Last year he threw 134 total. But nevertheless I'd love to see him pitch for the Dodgers this year.

McDonald K/BB:
PreJuly 3.1
July 1.25

Avg. 5.4 IP per start on the year.

27 - Just the Dodgers' Baseball-Reference team page.

"What's that old saying? 'It gets late early out here?' That was from Yogi Berra and for Dodger fans, it's been late for days now--the trading deadline is a mere four hours away but for most of us, it may as well seem like four days. So many rumors, too many to mention, the latest being Matt Kemp being part of a package to go east while Manny Ramirez comes west to the Dodgers--we read that on sportsillustrated.com in an article by Jon Heyman, not to be confused with that sage of the internet, the all-knowing and all-powerful Jon Weisman but that's another story. For now, Dodger fans are sitting on pins and needles waiting, just waiting because that's all they can do until something--or nothing--happens. Until 1pm, if not sooner..."

My bad imitation of Vinny, counting down to the trade deadline. Back in an hour.

46 He hasn't been giving up HR's or walking many people. I just chalk last 4 or 5 starts to tough luck. He'll be fine.

If for no other reason, Maddux would again be great to have on the bench as another pitching coach for the young guys. He will also rise to the heat of the battle to be on a contender again. Dodgers should have never gotten rid of him in the first place. Off topic but I really need to know: Where is Rick Monday? I hear Steve Lyons now on the radio. What happened to Mo? Forgive the random off topic. But I gotta know.

Sorted by FIP, which only takes into account things like HR, SO and BB. vr, Xei

Saito 1.82
Troncoso 1.90 (.Note: .383 babip)
Guo 1.95
Broxton 2.37
Billingsley 3.15
Beimel 3.25
Lowe 3.41
Kuroda 3.86
Johnson 3.98
Wade 4.03
Park 4.07
Kershaw 4.23
Penny 4.66
Stults 4.73
Falkenborg 5.09
Proctor 5.33

To me, this list shows just how great Billingsley is. His FIP is 4th in the NL (also 4th in the NL West), behind Haren (2.78), Lincecum (2.82) and Webb 3.01), based on min 100 IPs. FWIW, the 5th and 6th are also NL West pitchers (Peavy, Lowe... excluding Sabathia). Also what stands out is how well Troncoso has pitched. His peripherals are outstanding and has taken a beating from a .383 BABIP against.
vr, Xei

It seems like having Maddux as a pitching coach is like having Vince Young do color commentary.

"Well the quarterback got a little pressure here, so he obviously should have ran it 80 yards to the house"

Maddux is one of the greatest control pitchers ever, does his stuff work if you can't throw all of your pitches exactly where you want them?

57 I asked this question on Sat and never really got an answer.

Isn't K/9IP a bad way to measure how effective a strikeout pitcher someone is? Wouldn't strikeout % be more effective?

The example I use is a guy pitches 6 innings gives up 7 hits and 2 walks but k's 7. That's a 10.5 K/9IP ratio, but K'd 26% of the batters faced. Another guy k's 6 in 6, but gives up 1 hit and 0 walks. His K rate is 9 K/9IP, but k's 31.5% of the batters faced.

Wouldn't that skew some FIP's one way or another?

Long Beach would love to see James McDonald in August.

Happy Trade Deadline Day everybody!

Observe it a manner consistent with your religious faith.

Was a 100 ERA+ the break even point for the Kuroda Accords?

Or was it higher?

61
I shall spend the day venerating the Virgin Mary and drinking sacramental wine out of a paper cup.

Redondo Beach would also love to see McDonald in August.

I loved the ending of Mark T.R. Donohue's latest Bad Altitude post:

"In order to make this a successful road trip, the Rockies have to win a series in Miami. That'll be a tall order considering that Colorado is starting not one but two former Brewers with "De" in their last names in the series."

63 Light a candle for me, Bob!

Also, if one is near Palos Verdes, one might as well schlep to San Pedro for a delicious sandwich from Busy Bee's.

Best. Sammiches. Ever.

0
Unless Penny has a setback I see no reason for McDonald. McDonald may be better in the long term but I doubt that if he was put in the rotation today he would fair any better then Johnson, Stults, or Park.

Andrew you must have watched Park pitch quite a bit this year. He is throwing quality stuff, and his peripherals have been climbing all year.

He kind of reminds me of Alvarez who was washed up with a history of arm injuries when we gave him one more shot. He was finally healthy and his once solid stuff returned. As long as Wilson was healthy he produced for us. If Chan Ho was throwing 88-90 will little movement I'd understand your concern but I see a nasty fastball and his command is solid enough that he has become a solid member of the pitching staff. I know you hate to be wrong, but it is July 30th and he is not going to turn into a pumpkin. He still may have a rough outing or two as even someone as talented as Broxton will but I'm sold and have been for several months.

66
Candles are $5.

68
Religious freedom isn't free.

I can get Greg Brock a deal on indulgences though.

Here's a deadline day issue that I've been wondering about since I was a kid: Who's job is it to photoshop a player's new team's uniform onto their MLB stock photo on ESPN broadcasts? Do you think they just pasted a hat and a uniform on top of his old photo?

59. =((HR*13 + Walks*3 - SO*2)/IP) + 3.2

Your example 1 yields a FIP of...
((0 + 6 - 14) / 6) + 3.2
FIP = 1.87

Example 2 yields a FIP of...
((0 + 0 - 12) / 6) + 3.2
FIP = 1.20

So yes, the second pitcher will have a lower expected ERA based on FIP. Keep in mind that your example is extreme as it's based on only one outing (small sample size). vr, Xei

The White Sox trade is a real head scratcher. Thome is on fire so he can't DH. The three outfielders have all performed much better then Griffy and they have a possible MVP candidate in Quentin. Can't bench Dye or Swisher.

Is Konerko done and they are going to move Swisher to 1st and Griffey to CF? Yikes

70 I know a guy in the indulgences district.

65. Bob, I thought you of all people would've caught that it should've been "de", not "De". :)
vr, Xei

Has anyone ever been traded for a Class A player and then been the MVP the following year? Or any minor leaguer for that matter in a one on one deal?

62
The Kuroda Accord©
failure
< 125IP ERA+ 96

break even
125IP-150IP ERA+ 96-106

success
150+IP ERA+ 106+

© Nate Purcell Industries, 2007

"When you have young players, even if with the player you can get, you may not want to give up a young player who isn't as good as he's going to be," said Torre. "Those are the ground rules. Matt Kemp is good now and in a couple years he'll be special. Kemp may be better than the guy you're going to get, and that guy probably is making a ton of money. That's just good business sense there."

mlb.com

yeah.

73. "Yes" to your last sentence.
vr, Xei

71
Alen Davidian

Alert: Don Mattingly will be on Jim Rome at the top of the 2nd hour of his show. Which is in a half hour here at least.

75
It was cutting and pasting.

73 At this point I have to believe he's insurance for when Thome makes his annual trip to the DL. Quentin/Griffey/Dye would give Manny/Ross/Willingham a run for it's money in defensive incompetence, which would really hurt Danks and Vazquez.

78 I'm off to go buy a Joe Torre poster.

77
Seems like a lot of money for break even. Kyle Lohse is having a season that I did not think was in him.

78
That's just good business sense there

I know it was an overall good point by Torre, but for some reason I can't read that without thinking Ron Burgundy saying "Its Science."

73 Yeah that one's a real head scratcher, I agree.

61 I'll be holding a silent meditation followed by a reading from the Old Testament in Hebrew, particularly Logan 15:6, in which the patriarch Colletti is warned about trading thine youth.

Nothing on Rick Monday? Anybody know what happened to Mo? Has he been relegated to announcing only away games?

I, for one, welcome our trade deadline overlords.

83
Given the size of the Marlin outfield, I would be afraid to take the mound if Willingham/Manny were allowed to be in the same outfield. It would be like having two Greg Luzinski's.

what does cash in the back pocket have to do with pitching machines?

Busy Bee is good, but I also like Lighthouse Cafe in San Pedro. Amazing BBQ beef sandwich on a toasted roll mmmmmmmmm

85-->12 mils does seem pretty high amount for a league average pitcher.

88. Wasn't he going to the White House to commemorate his flag saving play? Not sure when that was scheduled, but Lyons sure is brutal on the radio.
vr, Xei

85
Seems like a lot of money for break even

Are you saying Kuroda's AB music should be "You Wreck Me" by Tom Petty? :)

It's valuable to be average. So far, there are only 60 starters in MLB this year with 100 IP and a 100 ERA+.

I'm off to Lou Mitchell's in Chicago. Best omelets I've run into in my travels.

89

I will cast my vote for the third party.

92. $12Mil should give you around 2.5 win above replacement, right?
vr, Xei

Huh, this sounds familiar. (From MLBTR:)

"The Rays appear unlikely to make a trade, by the way. Perhaps they're cursed by their own loaded farm system."

from will carroll at bp:

The Red Sox, on the other hand, will try to deal Manny Ramirez even if the Pirates fall out. They can't do a deal to just the Marlins, but the Dodgers and one other mystery team have been contacted. The Dodgers are thought to be offering Matt Kemp.

i have a bad feeling this is going to happen.

Rick Monday was at the White House over two weeks ago. Did he end up getting a Cabinet position without us knowing about it?

Should we ask Sam DC if Monday is going to be a new U.S. attorney for some place?

14 Jon, thank you for recognizing that McDonald is worthy of a shot with the big club this year. I have been pushing that idea on this site since late May. I don't think it was wrong to promote Kershaw, but at the time, McDonald seemed like an appropriate choice as well. James has been solid all year and deserves a look. And the idea of promoting him now, when his innings are still low, and when the team could actually use a starter makes more sense. Also, he would be able to debut without putting him through the additional September playoff run pressure. Stults and Johnson made their contributions. Let's give McDonald a chance.

72 My point being, is when we look at stikeout pitchers the stat that is always brought up is K/9IP. Wouldn't K% be a much more effective measure?

Any conjecture about the Dodgers ending up with a SS?

99 We talked about that earlier. Will Carroll is the only one mentioning that, and even he admits his sources are sometimes meshugganah. It's possible, but most likely was something the Sox inquired about, just as every team that talks to the Dodgers likes to ask about Kemp. I wouldn't trust that one.

But that doesn't mean I won't feel better in 3 hours and it hasn't happened.

100
Monday is the new Secretary of Flag Protection.

90 Numbers since 2007

Manny: -39
Ross: +6 (didn't see that coming)
Willingham: -16 (in left)

Quentin: -6
Griffey: -19 (was -26 in center in 2006)
Dye: -43 (somehow was -41 last year according to the "enchanced" +/- they rank with)

99
Scott Akasaki and Billy DeLury are taking self-defense courses to get ready for MannyB.

Will Carroll is also probably mentioning the Dodgers are in the market to replace an injured Chad Billingsley. :)

105
But Monday would always get invited to the State of the Union address because they just wouldn't care if something happened to him.

92 Yeah, but if we didn't have him we'd be giving the ball to Stults right now. At least he's helping the cause.

I keep hearing the White Sox are shopping around Orlando Cabrera. Should we be going after him?

14 - I could see McDonald joining LA sometime, especially if Kershaw remains inconsistent. I'm not saying swap one for the other, but possibly alternating starts or going back to a 6 man rotation to conserve innings for both. Although in the wake of Johnson's start on Tuesday, Torre will probably keep him in the rotation long enough to have his ERA jump to 8.00 as to block McDonald. Here's hoping Penny comes back OK.

102

You're talk about K% was interesting, though I'd be lying if I said that I fully understood the implications.

Dodgers get: Manny & Clay Bucholz
Red Sox get: Matt Kemp & Joe Beimel

Do you do that deal?

Pierre and La Roche to the Red Sox; Manny to Cincinnati; Adam Dunn to the Dodgers. The Red Sox pick up both Manny's and Pierre's salary.

Actually, I'd force the Red Sox to take Juan Pierre's entire contract if I was making the above deal:

Dodgers get: Manny, Bucholz, & prospect
Red Sox get: Kemp, Pierre, & Beimel

Trading Kemp would be tough, but you'd get out of Pierre's contract plus get a high ceiling starter like Bucholz back. Not to mention Manny to help win in the short-term.

104 sorry about that, i hate recycling old conversations. i just think it would be so fitting that the hitter i have most often heard his ceiling compared to be the guy they trade him for. plus i promised id get his jersey on any team he is traded to, and i really dont want a red sox jersey.

113

I don't. Kemp is under our control for more years at a lesser price and possible more production. The addition of Clay is intriguing, but our pitching depth in the organization is enough so that I'm not jumping at him.

114

Dream come true, but there is little to no way at all that the Boston would pick up ALL that salary.

Boston's not going to deal Manny without getting a good hitting OF'er back.

112 I don't know the implications either, but take a look at Maddux's 95 season

181 K's in 209.2 IP, for 7.8 K/9IP nothing too impressive. But take into account he only walked 23 guys, and gave up 147 hits. If you looked at his K% I would be it's higher than some guys with over 9 K/9IP that season.

Just for giggles, which would you want back...

Shane Victorino
Cody Ross

115 I think the first deal is pretty fair, but it just takes us down to one competent outfielder above A ball in 2009 while it gives us more of our biggest strength.

lol for Eric {86}

Torre Burgundy: When you have young players, even if with the player you can get, you may not want to give up a young player who isn't as good as he's going to be

Ned Corningstone: No, there's no way that's correct.

Torre Burgundy: Those are the ground rules. Matt Kemp is good now and in a couple years he'll be special. Kemp may be better than the guy you're going to get, and that guy probably is making a ton of money. That's just good business sense there."

Ned Corningstone: Doesn't it mean Trade Him?

Torre Burgundy: No. No.

Veronica Corningstone: No, that's - that's what it means. Really.

Torre Burgundy: Agree to disagree.

I am guessing that Colletti could get Maddux cheaply if the Dodgers picked up all of his salary remaining for the year. I am also guessing McCourt is getting smarter and won't let Colletti increase payroll, especially on a player that has at best a 50/50 chance of helping.

If Colletti really wants Maddux then he can trade like salary for him. Maybe someone like Pierre. That gives him more money to go after Sabathia next year. And, as bad as Jones is hitting, I think the Dodgers are a better team with Jones playing instead of Pierre along side Ethier and Kemp.

Peter Gammons says the three-way Manny deal is close to dead. It may not make sense for Boston.

And Jason Bay is in the mix for Toronto, too(!) Weird times, man, weird times.

119

Agreed that looking at his walk and hits are important as is his K rate, but couldnt we just look at WHIP for that.

117 They are paying Cincy to take Manny, they are getting LeRoche to pick up Pierre's salary. It's not like they can't afford it, or even may trade him away anyhow.

119
Maddux in 95, 7.8 K/9IP 23.0% K%
Burnett this year, 9.2 K/9IP, 23.1%

K/9IP is a major factor to figuring FIP, why should someone be penalized because they face less hitters per 9?

When is the trade deadline over?

116 Oh no worries! Just wanted to catch you up. I think all of us were at least briefly worried about it but I'm not taking it too seriously... {{bite nails}}

You guys in the US probably haven't heard about this yet, but a pretty grisly news story is the talk of Canada right now. Late last night, on a Greyhound bus from Edmonton bound for Winnipeg, a man took out a butcher's knife and killed his sleeping seatmate, stabbing him repeatedly. The driver and other passengers fled in terror, and the killer was later seen through the bus's windows holding up his victim's severed head like a trophy.

10:03 AM, less than three hours to go and everyone here today can breathe a sigh of relief.

Colletti hits a little nubber! And it's just foul. We'll do it all over again.

113/115 - I wouldn't make either of those deals. reg is right in 121, it means the Bums would have to rebuild their outfield completely or hope that their pitchers didn't allow anything out of the in field.

Right now, I can't see trading Kemp for anything short of a superstar in his prime (Manny should be on the decline).

Ethan Martin, the Dodgers' first-round draft pick in June's draft will undergo season-ending knee surgery. Martin, who the Dodgers now plan on using as a pitcher instead of a third baseman, reportedly injured his knee during fielding drills. The severity of the injury is unknown.

Dodgers last two 1st rounders have been cursed.

Has Withrow threw a professional pitch yet?

130
Best segue ever

134 He threw like seven innings last year.

Torre doesn't have enough players if he wants to shore up the defense in the 8th and 9th innings and be able to pinch hit. Kent and Nomar already come out and if Manny is in left, he should be on the bench for the late innings if games are close and the Dodgers have the lead. Billingsley doesn't have his shutout and the Dodgers don't necessarily win if Manny or Pierre were in left last night.

132 Right now, I can't see trading Kemp for anything short of a superstar in his prime (Manny should be on the decline).

I concur.

130 Wow that's absolutely frightening =/

Reg, where is the flaws in my question in 127 ?

133 Yikes. Bummer.

Where's that from?

Okay, DON MATTINGLY! Live on Jim Rome.

130 ya, that's absolutley horrible

88 I thought I heard Steiner say earlier this week that Monday was on vacation.

The Dodgers are holding out hope for a Brad Penny market, and one of the clubs they're watching is the Detroit Tigers. But Jim Leyland insists that Tim Byrdak will be back soon from his contused fingernail, and that Bobby Seay can at least do a loud job resembling a chimpanzee while he fills in.

Ken's random Diamond Notes generator is good for what ails ya on this day.

140 I'm thinking about it. My initial thoughts are K/9 is simply easier to compute, and that K/9 plays into the idea that all non home run hits are mainly luck so you shouldn't get punished by them.

130 - Give them back their hockey teams, now.

If would be fitting if the Bay deal is dead for Boston but somehow Tampa finagles a deal for him. If McGee hadn't gone down with TJ they would have more to offer. It is close to the Dodger scenario last winter where I think we would have a better shot at Miggy if Elbert had not gone down with shoulder problems.

Toronto could use some offense but what could they offer the Pirates? Travis Snider? Why would Toronto bother? They can't jump 2 teams with McGowan gone for the year.

Chad Billingsley tosses his first career shutout with a five-hitter despite this pre-game interview...

Leung: How's it going?

Billingsley: Good.

Leung: Proceeds to next question

Billingsley: I'm starting.

Leung: Covers mouth

144 Good idea!

133

That sucks a lot.

145 Wouldn't K% just be Ks/BF?

149 The Dodgers feel they have a competitive pen with Ramon Troncoso and Hong-Chih Kuo, but they need Jonathan Broxton, whose obsession with graham crackers was in danger of becoming a distraction, to return to last year's level.

Oh Noes!!!!

151 right.

Humans are still monkeys. Make enough movies showing the exact same thing and someone, somewhere will mimic it.

mark (chicago): With all the conflicting reports out there, all baseball journalists need to take a breath and try to not sacrifice accuracy for speed. They really aren't doing their jobs and appear to be mouthpiecess of various organizations. I know * has lost all credibility to me already.

SportsNation Jim Callis: (1:04 PM ET ) I deleted the writer's name . . . but yes, I agree with the point. There's such a rush to be first that accuracy gets sacrificed last night, and that's not good. I went to bed last night after reading that a Manny Ramirez deal was on Bud Selig's desk for approval, and that obviously wasn't the case.

Mattingly's comments on The Andruw Jones Question on Jim Rome were most illuminating. You should give it a listen later if it's rerun or is on line later.

But the upshot of it is that he compared the situation to when Jason Giambi first came to NY and he worked with Giambi and said after his knee problems Giambi was a total mess, his swing was a mess and he was pressing because he was in a new place. It took a lot of time but he got better. He attributes a lot of Jones' problems to pressing in a new place and having lost all confidence after a slow start. He said if Jones got off to the same start in the comfort of Atlanta they'd seen that before so he'd press less because they'd be after him less and there weren't all these new expectations. He said his swing was a mess but he's working with him and Jones is working hard every day. He doesn't believe he's "lost it," after Rome asked him that.

153 I agree with what you're saying, K% is more important than K/9.

I got the answer now. The reason you evaluate based on perhiperals instead of runs allowed is because it takes out two factors: BABIP, and team defense. K% rewards pitchers who have low BABIPs (so they face less batters) and who have a strong defense behind them who can turn more balls in play into outs.

Mattingly also had thoughts on the Dodgers' young hitters but there wasn't that much new there. They have talent, some of them were just "go up there and hack" mentality and had to learn more patience, but they're doing well and are talented and blah blah.

Arthur Rhodes' last game with the Mariners resulted in an ejection. Now the left-handed reliever has been thrown into a pennant race with the Florida Marlins.

Rhodes, 38, has been traded by the Mariners to Florida for pitching prospect Gaby Hernandez.

The ease of figuring K/9 is a major selling point. You have to dig a little deeper to find batters faced.

There isn't much difference between the K/9 leaders and K% leaders. Of the 110 MLB pitchers with 100 IP this year, 88 of them are within 5 rank spots of their positions on both lists. For instance, Edinson Volquez ranks 3rd in K/9 but 4th in K%, so he is 1 rank spot off. The top guys are all in essentially the same spots on both lists, with a little variation.

127. K% takes into account balls put in play, which in a small sample size can be very luck based. A pitcher who gives up 10 bloop singles vs a pitcher who had all those bloop hits hit at somebody for outs will have very different K%, but will have the same FIP.
vr, Xei

Yeah, Rhodes was ejected after arguing with ump about a questionable ball call (it did look like a strike, but of course you're never going to win that one). Seems like a logical deal for both teams.

About the news story on the grisly murder, what are the chances the last sentence of a news wire story on such a thing would make one laugh out loud? I suppose you all know that Canada has very strong gun registration laws? Here's the last sentence of CTV.ca's story: "The minister [Canada's Minister of Public Safety] said he's not entertaining any notion of registering knives as dangerous weapons given that millions of kitchen knives alone are sold annually." Knife control laws? A journalist was stupid enough to ask a government cabinet minister about the possibility of knife control laws?

155 The Toaster seems to eat consecutive asterisks, but for what it's worth, the number of asterisks matched up with a blogger who is thoroughly convinced that Billingsley's arm is about to disintegrate.

Don Mattingly's highest walk total in one season was 60.

164
No offense, but it's Canada. I fully expected someone to ask that question.

152 You rang?

Oh, 61. My bad.

Huge plate discipline, that guy.

158 makes sense.

156 Mattingly was on the pregame show a couple of days ago and said something about Jones getting too low in the legs and uppercutting his swing, which I found to be utter crap, because he has always dipped way low (I once saw him hit a massive home run with his right knee on the ground) and has always had an uppercut swing. Granted, his swing is a mess, but I don't think it's any different than his swing in years past.

That's a scary story. I've actually ridden Greyhound a couple of times in my life and never had any problems (except for one drunk woman who had to be ejected) but I do recall napping with one eye open, and that's without even imagining something so grisly.

---

Meanwhile the Manny trade talks are not dead after all. Or maybe they are. Or not. Or just resting. Or maybe they wouldn't voom if you put four million volts through 'em, they're bleeding demised.

Or not.

154

Humans are primates and monkeys are primates, but humans are not monkeys.

162 So FIP doesn't factor WHIP?

143 Vacation mid-season? Don't they have rather long vacations in the off-season? There must be more to it than that, some special situation - someone getting married, sick, whatever.

169 - Twue. Though doesn't it seem like Kemp is being more patient at the plate? Maybe that's all on his own. Or Mattingly's of the "do as I say, not as I do/did" school of teaching.

174. I posted the FIP formula earlier in the thread. vr, Xei

Did you know that Rick Monday is actually one of the Watchmen? He didn't make the comic book's final cut, but apparently his character was called The "FlagGrabber." Yep, it's a little-known fact.

175
It's still a grind to cover 162 games. And all the spring training games. After all these years, I would think Monday has some vacation time due him.

I love posters who know so much more about hitting then hitting coaches.

174
Per 72 (and The Hardball Times), here is the calculation for FIP:

=((HR*13 + Walks*3 - SO*2)/IP) + a league adjustment factor (currently 3.2; it can fluctuate)

177 Oops, I missed it thanks.

180 Most of the posters I own are inanimate.

180 Who said anything like that?

Nobody, that's who.

Not talking to you Greg, stand down.

I love posters who know so much more about player evaluation than general managers

180 Posters also know more than General Managers and Managers, so why not hitting coaches?

I love posters who know more about catcher's interference calls than I do.

185 I haven't seen anything about anybody being more of an expert than Mattingly.

Now Colletti, yes, he's a big dumb animal, folks.

187 Because it's Donny Baseball, the sport is in his name for crying out loud!

189
171 based on one at bat that he once saw A Jones take. I'm sure that was more relevant then the hours and hours of video that Mattingly has seen of hitters.

189
But, not a monkey.

Don Mattingly should be our first pitch hitter off the bench. ...Okay, second pitch hitter after Kuo.

I love that poster of Alyssa Milano in a hockey jersey. Or at least I did when I was a kid.

173 Q: Some primates are humans and some primates are monkeys so are some humans monkeys?

A: Ned Colletti

Approximately 2 hours 10 minutes to go!
How's everyone holding up?

How's everyone holding up?

I just can't take all this back and forth with the Manny Trade™. The future of American baseball (nay: society) hangs in the balance!

191 I just took that as a long way of saying his problem is in his head, not his swing.

Which I happen to agree with. Well, that and the lack of performance enhancing drugs. Those two things.

Also: I got my tickets for Tuesday's Billingsley/Carpenter (I think) matchup at Busch Stadium. Bob will be glad to know that the St. Louis stadium hails itself as "Baseball Heaven."

It's printed right on the tickets, so it must be true!

196

I have to pack all my clothes and I'm having a hard time doing that.

But, it could just be that I have a burning hatred for moving.

How many PVL's can Colletti gather at young talent's expense in the next 2 hours plus that he can get past Mccourt/White/Eng? That is the question? Not quite Shakespeare but for Dodger fans right now, a very vital question for our teams future!

191 I think you're inferring far too much.

Personal insults just bring down DT to a talk show mentality.

anyone have tickets for tomorrow night they can't use? This DT'er trying to find some tixs..thanks guys/gals.

203 - Yeah? What do you know about it, boogerhead?

199
Does "Baseball Heaven" have a trademark symbol next to it?

Nothing will be worse than Nate's "OMG Kershaw is cleaning out his locker!" bomb last year.

Man, that was...Most bothersome.

206 - No, but it does appear just below the image of a sliding Yadier Molina. Only in Baseball Heaven could Yadi generate enough footspeed to make sliding worthwhile.

205 I don't know anything about it.

You mean to tell me the Manny trade is NOT going to happen? What in the heck.

130
That is flippin insane.

207

Yes that was horrible, I apologize again.

209 - Shoot. I thought you might at least call me a goober or something. Work with me, people!

(You get that 205 was pure silliness, I hope. I agree with your comment in 203.)

212 Nah, it was funny....Afterwards.

Those few minutes, not so much.

214

You think it'll work two years in a row?

213
bhsportsguy's theme song is "Goober Peas" by the Kingston Trio.

I'm just glad to learn we don't have to wait until midnight to know. That would make for a long day.

The Score 670 Chicago reports that the White Sox are close to acquiring John Lannan from the Nationals.
It's unknown just who the Chicago would be sending over in the deal, but this is Jim Bowden we're dealing with, so anything is possible. Lannan is arbitration eligible through 2013, and he can keep the ball on the ground, which would make him a nice fit in Chicago.

Lannan seemed like such a goof when he pitched against the Dodgers a little while back. Wouldn't mind him pitching for the Dodgers though.

215 Only one way to find out...

OH MY GOD!!!! WE'RE HAVING A FIRE!!!!

.

.

sale.

212 for those who weren't around, please explain.

220
I had a dream last night that Tobias was pregnant, and was claiming that I was the father.

It was weird.

207 -- When Nate revealed he was joking, you want to know how I felt? Let's just say that if Nate and I had been on a Greyhound bus together at that time....

221 It seems to be covered in 207

I wish this wasn't a true story or at the least, I wish I was exaggerating, but unfortunately this is true. I got hit by a cold yesterday and last night I was sick as heck. I have very vivid memories of waking up for a few minutes at a time about 5-6 times last night. And every time I woke up, in my half-asleep, barely-able-to-breathe stage, I was thinking about the baseball trading deadline. The whole thought of it all made me sicker I think.

I had a dream last night that Matt Kemp hit a home run. And everybody on Dodger Thoughts was happy. It was a good dream.

Why did everyone just run out of the bus and leave that guy to be decapitated? I don't think a guy with a knife could take on a giant mob of people.

223 You'd be asking Nate why they don't ban knives in America?

223 wow. here's the line, there's canuck.

The think I don't like about the trade deadline anxiety is that even though the deadline is at 1pm, there is always that 30 minutes or so afterwards during which deals could get finalized.

It's like extra time in soccer. You think it's over, but it's not quite over yet.

222 Did you violate his never-nudeness?

It feels good to know that my imprint has been left on DT where the shockwave still resounds a year later.

Very proud for myself.

222
Did someone forget to take his Timocil last night?

130

Man, that story made me sick to my stomach. That is absolutely horrible. I can't imagine what an experience like that would do to an eyewitness.

229 -- Relax, Nate and I are pals.

227 I had the impression that by the time they figured out what was going on, the guy was dead already.

The truly weird thing is that, even after doing everything in 130, Canuck still has internet privileges. Canadian jail must be pretty sweet.

231
Fortunately, the dream did not include any potentially impregnating activities. It all took place post-conception.

130 That's one of the more disturbing things I have ever read. Couldn't find any news links to it though.

I didn't say I thought the comment wasn't humerous. In fact when I read I pictured some canuck type dude (whatever that is) riding in the dodger's huge travel bus, holding up Nate's head wearing a Dodger helmet.

I can't hear Reid Brignac's last name without thinking of the rock monster from Galaxy Quest.

Rock!
Rock!
Rock!

227 maybe in the heat of the situation courage would take over. but from a logical standpoint i'd flee, as wrong as it maybe it'd be different if it were a family memeber or friend, compared to a complete stranger.

239- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7535840.stm

227 -- I think it was already too late for the victim when somebody saw what was happening. The decapitation happened after the victim was already dead, and while the decapitation makes the whole story more horrific, if the victim is already dying, do you risk any more lives to prevent something disgusting happening to the corpse?

keith law's link to ken griffey jr's stats on his trade blog go to pat tabler's stats instead.

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3512791&name=law_keith

227

Easier said than done.

"There was no rage in him ... It was just like he was a robot or something," he added.

The eyewitness is obviously not familiar with Asimov's three laws of robotics.

239. http://www.canada.com/news/story.html?id=692762

To pass the final two hours. A quick look back at what we have done this decade at the trade deadline.
http://tinyurl.com/DodgerDeadlineDeals

By the way, Rich Lederer was (may still be, I haven't seen him pushing it in a while) a big proponent of moving off of K/9 to K/100 Pitches. It's worth a read, if you haven't seen it before.

http://tinyurl.com/hwwsj

237
They just play street hockey, badminton, and smoke dope. Sure sometimes the dope sucks. I've seen documentaries about this.

It is always nice to see a Dodger progress the way billingsley has, very promessing. Man, I saw Kevin Brown warming up once from close distance, that was really cool.

Just imagine a 94+ fastball that drops all of a sudden, WHAT!?

249
You seem to be missing something in 2004...

248 did he commit suciede it doesn't say.

if i was the police, id have a hard time not ending his life right there.

The Canadian decapitation made Drudge. The story, right beneath it, for juxtapositional purposes.

252 I played ball with Bruce Bochy's kid and got the opportunity to go to Qualcom before a Padre game in the late 90's. I saw Brown throw a BP and was amazed at the movement and control he had. One of the guys we were with asked him if he could throw a 4-seamer and he preceded to pump a 98 MPH fastball(radar gun was in front of us) right down the pipe. Needless to say we were all blown away.

249
He was just looking for trades on the deadline day.

The Heart and Soul trade was on July 30 I believe.

Oops. Forgot the link:

http://tinyurl.com/5omwsb (grotesque, but not unsafe for work)

253
Thanks, day before the deadline but it is there now.

251 -- Trailer Park Boys!

260
I pretty much quote the show everyday, so it was about time I got to make a reference on DT.

Rome was on fire with his "Golf Guy" segment. I bet there is a few "Golf Guys" in here

Two movies I can never not watch if my remote happens to glance past them even though I own both of them.
Galaxy Quest
Princess Bride

If my partner did not like these movies we would not be married.

Who cares if Adam Dunn likes playing baseball? He's good at it.

This ongoing meme is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Jeff Kent doesn't like baseball very much, either. And he's not good at it anymore.

261 -- Do you have any favorite quotes?

According to MLBtraderumors

1:31pm: Heyman says the Dodgers are back in the mix for Manny but the Marlins aren't out of it.

If you click the Heyman link on the page, it says the Dodgers are offering Ethier but the Sox prefer Kemp. Come to think of it, an outfield of Kemp Manny and Jones is quite appealing.

265
I have a ton, too bad you can't say most of them here.

Ricky: ...I'm having trouble talking, but I am smart.

Ricky: Get over here you alien skinny giraffe chickens!

More junk:

From MLBTR:
>>>>>1:31pm: Heyman says the Dodgers are back in the mix for Manny but the Marlins aren't out of it.

The Dodgers have offered young outfielder Andre Ethier, but Boston is believed to prefer Matt Kemp.<<<<<<

In an effort to increase the eyeballs at True Blue, Andrew has added the Textually Active Snorgtees to the ad lineup. I applaud this move, reminds me of the old Herald Examiner ads in the sports pages.

247 A Robot Made of Knives?

--

263 - I agree, Toy, I can watch Galaxy Quest repeatedly. I think I've worn the grooves out on that DVD, if you could wear grooves on DVDs.

Jayson Stark says the Dodgers deal for Maddux is dead.

Heyman: Ned offers Ethier for Manny, Sox want Bison: http://tinyurl.com/56opdh

Bubbles:I got a grey kitty, white one,
and a tabby too/
And a big orange guy
who put snakes in my shoes/
Mad MC skills, leave ya struck,
and I roll with ma kitties,
and I'am hard as {Rule 1}/
I am down with Plato and Socrates/
And I like to get busy with all the ladies.
Grunt, grunt/
sumthin,' sumthin,' sumthin,'/
Grunt/
Up in ma shed, up in ma shed...

272

How does that work with the new mandate on not taking on anymore salary?

You have to pick up Manny's options right?

274 McCourt will pay any amount of money for a former Red Sox.

275 I think the caveat is that you have to not pick up Manny's options.

275
Manny doesn't want his options picked up. He wants another long-term deal after this season.

Keep Kemp!

274 Sox would pay it, supposedly.

275 I have read reports that Manny wants his options declined at the end of season, no matter what team he is on.

277

Then the trade isn't as good.

I'm standing by with my 'Molecular Biology of the cell.' Just let me know when.

I hope Ned does panic and give them a giant package centered around Ethier.

Ethier would be more reasonable from the Dodgers' standpoint. Anyway, I hope this whole thing dies a quick, horrible death.

One hour and ten minutes, folks. Keep together in an orderly fashion. There's coffee and tea in the lobby.

283
doesn't

271 Is it dead, or just resting?

On second thought, 2 months of Manny sounds nice, but next year we'd be stuck with having to watch JP play every day with Jones and Kemp. I say we just keep Ethier.

278 ManRam for a buck.

286 It's pining for the fjords.

286
It's passed on. Deceased. Expired. Singing in the Choir Invisible.

284 If there's any truth to it--it is Heyman after all--it should founder on Bison. I still want this over.

Ugh. I'll be unhappy if the Dodgers trade Kemp for Manny. Probably not as unhappy as you'll be, but still.

It has ceased to be.

287-Not once Ned brings in Randy Winn.

FSN Prime is airing 'Andre Ethier: Before the Bigs' tonight.

I hope Ned stays firm on Ethier and not give in with Kemp. Maybe get the Sox to take Pierre as well?

The temptation to please Plaschke and Rosenthal must be strong. Logan, take the phone away from him, now!

Gammons just said that someone close to Manny said that they are still talking to the Dodgers.

Ugh.

292 "Probably not"? ;-) I think this place will explode with Hulk-like rage and take the whole Toaster down with it.

293 This deal wouldn't voom if you put 4 million volts through it.

(Oh wait, that's the second time I've quoted that today. I'm a nerd.)

How about...

This deal's a bit runny today.

Oh! The cat's gotten it.

I don't know why Kemp's name is still out there. At this point, shouldn't Kemp be almost as untouchable as Billingsley. Not blaming the Dodgers FO, but they should be making it plenty clear to everyone that Kemp is not leaving unless replaced by someone like HanRam.

We're going to trade Ethier/LaRoche/???.

I just know it.

The possible Matt Kemp / ManRam trade was last seen riding on a Greyhound bus headed for the Canadian border.
vr, Xei

If we do Ethier for Manny and he leaves I can't see us going with Pierre/Jones/Kemp in '09. So that makes us bidders on Burrell/Dunn.

I haven't been this nervous since I climbed the twin peaks of Kilimanjaro.

After seeing that Manny would be a rental, the only way that I'd make the deal is if the Red Sox took Pierre along with Ethier.

With Ned in charge, I'd prefer that the Dodgers not make anymore deals.

One more hour and some change.

{{biting nails}}

Can someone hack into Ned's cell phone and cut off service?

302 man that's cold

Steve Phillips, pop psychologist.

Numbskull.

Steve Phillips thinks our problem is that we have young players, and old player.... no one in their prime.

I don't necessarily disagree.

John Perallato saying that Beane's turned off his phone.

307 earthquake?

310 He's not wrong on that, but the idea that the pressure bothers the young players is weird.

Heyman:

>>Dodgers manager Joe Torre is known to love Ramirez from Torre's days in New York managing against him, and Dodgers owner Frank McCourt, a Bostonian, has long been enamored of Red Sox players and can't be counted out now.<<

That's kind of embarrassing.

307 - Canuck can hack into his central nervous system and cut off...

The inimitable Buster Olney says the D-Backs will stand pat.

Ken Rosenthal is reporting that four out of five dentists prefer Crest Whitening Strips over the leading brand.

Not that anyone needs a perspective check, but just a call for your good wishes and fingers crossed about something unrelated. See, my g/f was found to have some growths on her thyroid, which aren't that uncommon. They're gonna do a biopsy soon (though not soon enough for my own psyche). The odds are really good it's not cancerous, and if God forbid it is, still in her favor, very treatable (but not fun), but we're still pretty nervous about it til we get the results. Sometimes they do surgery, sometimes they just keep an eye on it and give thyroid medication. But at any rate, if y'all could think good thoughts and cross yer fingers, I'm sure it can't hurt! She's less freaked out than I am. :-) (And no need to post anything here. Just think good thoughts. Will let y'all know what happens.)

Baseball is a nice distraction from all this, though. Although a horrific trade or some sort might ruin me more than it normally would.

314

So we're interested in ManRam because Torre and McCourt have manlove for him.

Great.

317
He also reported that Matt Kemp brushes his teeth with his own spit, so the Dodgers may trade him.

318 All the best, man.

I swear, I will cut off my allegiance to the Blue if they trade Kemp for a rental. I'm not even happy if we give them Ethier and LaRoche. Ethier and Pierre or Jones I can live with and would even approve as it would get one of our albatrosses off our necks. I don't think epstein would be that stupid though! I am so afraid Colletti and Frank will approve this turkey of a trade and send our future outfield stud away for two months of Manny. I'm almost as scared as the morning of Jan. 17, 1994, not quite, but almost.

318 Good luck!

This would be a really good time to force the Pirates to make a bad move. They have to rebuild more than we need their players.

Phillips wouldn't have traded Kotchman for Teixiera.

Tomorrow's LA Times headline:

319 - ManLove brings ManRam for ManBoobs

318 Oh man. Good luck!

Every year its the same.

On the one hand, I don't see why Ned doesn't trade for now, heck what does he care what the team looks like next year or 2010.

On the other, if things hold pat for another hour, he and the Dodgers will get ridiculed by Plaschke and Simers for not going for it and reward their long suffering fans with something that looks like they are trying to win now.

318 My fingers and toes are crossed until further notice.

Ethier is my favorite Dodger, by far. I will be very upset if he leaves. It will be a very sad, sad day for me indeed.

318
Good luck to her.

But I didn't know you were dating Doug Davis.

If we wind up with Manny, Congress needs to pass a law that he and JP can't be in the same outfield at the same time.

Good luck underdog - fingers crossed

331
Who can turn down the pride of Northgate High School.

I'm thinking good thoughts, underdog.

Best wishes, underdog and g/f.

333
Actually, Icaros would.

I think at the end of the day the Manny thing doesn't come off with the Dodgers because the salary dump, anything over 1 million has to be approved by the commissioner's office, so if the Dodgers added Jones or Pierre the salries would be closer, but don't think the Red Sox are interested in either of those two.

Does it make any sense to try and do Ethier for Bay straight up? He is signed through next year and in fairness represents more power

318 Hang in there--we just went through something similar. All was well.

331 Thanks folks!

Hah! I forgot he had thyroid cancer. Well, he's a good model if, again, God forbid it comes to that. Sigh. I believe she'd go on the disabled list for awhile, too, if PR firms have disabled lists. They'll probably call up some rookie flack to fill her spot.

318 - Ok, taking a break from my self-imposed moratorium on posting to wish you and your girlfriend the best of luck. You're a good guy, so I can only assume you've picked yourself out a quality partner. Hope all turns out well, and you can breathe easy.

"Thanks folks!" was meant for all of you, not just Bob.

318

Best of luck, bro.

318 Good luck man. Like Bob said, before you know it, she'll be ready to pitch in the majors.

Rotoworld: A source told MLB.com that the Rays will get Jason Bay from the Pirates for Reid Brignac and Jeff Niemann.

318
I wish you and your GF the best!

328
Plaschke has criticized the Dodgers front office every for not making a big deal at the trading deadline except in 2004.

Then he criticized the Dodgers for making too many big deals at the trading deadline.

Jason Bay is now a Ray, per MLBTR.

A source told MLB.com that the Rays will get Jason Bay from the Pirates for Reid Brignac and Jeff Niemann.

340
It's okay, Bob's like the size of 2 or 3 people anyways.

Jason Bay to Rays for Brignac/Niemann (MLB.com).

I wonder what Giants fans who mancrush on Ethier will feel if he leaves the division for manram? A lot of mixed feelings and sadness.

345 - Boom!

48 minutes!

And then the hour afterward when deals trickle in.

But 48 minutes!

318 Good luck, Sweet Polly!

I think the Rays dominated this trade. Niemann is an innings eater, with a bad injury past. Brignac looks like a one-year wonder.

Some perspective from Rotoworld: According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, the Dodgers are back in on the Manny Ramirez talks, but they're offering Andre Ethier, not Matt Kemp. This after Heyman said last night that the Dodgers had made it clear they were willing to trade Kemp for Ramirez. The Red Sox would surely prefer the right-handed hitter and are likely to hold out for him.

Good luck to you and your girlfriend, underdog.

Doctors love to send me in for thyroid checks because I always show up at the office with a fairly high pulse rate (although normal BP). Every doctor I see has to go through the ritual of just determining that I'm always freaked out by going to the doctor.

Thanks again, guys (and gals). {{sniff!}}

I'll keep ya posted. :-)

--

Wow, that's a great trade for BOTH teams, no?

If TB gets Bay, can Boston afford to trade Manny? I don't think any trade can match his production this year.

354 - I thought scouts were really high on Brignac? Or is he overvalued?

Pirates should have gotten a third piece.

Does this mean Ned will now overpay slightly less for Jack Wilson?

I'm still waiting for any of those Rice guys to sniff anything close to being good.

Throwing your arm off in college is a bummer.

346 Xei, should be happy

361 - Desmond Jennings?

If ManRam comes to LA, I'll buy a beer toanyone who accompanies me to the first game he wears Blue.

318 Good luck with that.

And this may bring a smile to your face today, but really I hope everything works out, we still need to do that Bay Area DT outing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ0GbL4247M

150:1, Baby!

What's so good about Brignac? He's young for his league, but he's sucking in AAA.

360
They were, but I think people see him as iffy now.

Though I can think of somebody that likes how Niemann's last name is spelled.

369
People like that he's a 6-3 shortstop and had one good season. At least, that's what it seems like to me.

I love this trade for Tampa Bay. Ir gives the Rays a legit middle of the order bat who gets on base at a high rate.

Huh. Well then the Pirates are stupid, as usual.

367 If you come up for the Aug 8 series you can join us! I'm looking for tix now.

Pirates should have demanded either Hellickson or Davis, along with John Jaso.

Dang, I don't like that at all. Jason Bay in the AL East (and without pinstripes). And Manny's still in the division, too.

371 What's the big deal? So he can paint cheesy watercolors of athletes. Big whoop.

375

Not a big fan of Davis, but they definitely needed a 3rd piece.

376 I hope he is in an hour anyway. Stop jinxing it!

Best of luck Underdog

For the last half an hour, I've been repeating in my head:

"Please be Ethier, please be Ethier, please be Ethier."

337 And belated thanks, Ken. Who knows, we may email you for advice. :-)

---
38 minutes folks... are we still intact?

For the last half an hour, I've been repeating in my head: "Please be Pierre, please be Pierre, please be Pieere."

382 Anytime, not that I have much.

For the last half an hour, I've been repeating in my head: "Please be Pierre and Andruw, please be Pierre and Andruw, please be Pierre and Andruw."

The heck is ESPN doing? Why are they showing Golf and Tennis when they're baseball talk going on!

147-year old Hal McCoy comments on the Griffey trade:
http://tinyurl.com/6ehzbo

Doesn't his picture look like one of those fake ones for like the astrologist in the Onion?

I'd have been all for trading Ethier for Bay, but now that he's off the table, I really hope we don't give up either Ethier or Kemp for ManRam.

Please be Pierre... please be Pierre... please be Pierre...

For the last half an hour, I've been repeating in my head: "Please be asleep, Ned, Please be asleep, please be asleep..."

383 385 I guess the voice in my head is just more realistic.

{{busy hacking into Ned's cell phone account via personal connection at AT&T}}

{{rerouting all calls to a telemarketer in Bangladesh}}

I don't think Manny's going anywhere. Any kind of deal where we want the Red Sox to pay him off is inherently complicated, there's not enough time for it.

Good luck and my thoughts are with you Underdog. UCSF is very good with that stuff, but other places in the Bay Area are also good.

35 more minutes (I hear the clock ticking like in the show 24)

386
They put the deadline coverage on ESPNews, because two seasons ago they had a big special and absolutely nothing meaningful happened.

I would love an Ethier for Manny deal. I have a bit of manlove for Manny myself and Ethier seems replaceable. Kemp, not so much. The only scray thing is what we send with Ethier.

I've been chanting "Systems analyst! Systems analyst! Systems analyst!"

393 Unfortunately a trade only has to be agreed upon by both teams before the deadline. If it requires Commish approval, they can take as long as they want as long as its on Selig's desk before then.

I don't want Manny. I just want Pierre and Jones disappeared.

399 Never forget the Lugo post-deadline bombshell of 2006.

From the Globe's Gordon Edes (3:24 p.m.): It's looking like the Red Sox are not engaged with the Dodgers in any talks regarding Manny Ramirez.

This is the calm before the storm. Didn't we find out about the Maddux trade a few minutes after the deadline?

398 Is that a Vanilla Sky reference? Isn't is System Support!

Yes the Lugo headline felt like a punch to the stomach

Breaking News!

Dodgers trade GM Ned Coletti,OF Andruw Jones, and OF Juan Pierre for GM Theo Epstein, Manny Ramirez, and Josh Beckett.

The Dodgers just acquired Brett Favre, apparently. More news as it happened! QB problem is solved. Good work, Ned!

402 That's good. Edes is a cut above the other gossip mongers. Two cuts.

406 As long as the Sox eat up Manny's salary

404 I believe it is a reference to The Simpsons. One of Bart's classmates is hoping the result of an aptitude test shows him suitable to be a Systems Analyst.
Been a long time since I've seen that episode though.

I'm dreading the Jack Wilson for Ethier & LaRoche headline.

398 I saw that episode when I had no idea what a systems analyst did (not that I have any clue now, though).

Hm, the White Sox are actually interested in old friend Joel Hanrahan, not Hannan as was previously reported. Understandable mistake.

407
So he's going to start for the Avengers?

406 That comes with Peter Gammons too.

Stark says Maddux not coming to LA
http://tinyurl.com/64geuk

406 - What's weird is that your "Breaking News" appeared just at the bottom of my browser, and my heart actually skipped a beat because I had to scroll to get to your next sentence.

Great e-mail sent in to Rome:
"Brett Favre for Manny Ramirez, and let's be done with it.
Signed, an FBI hostage negotiator."

25 more minutes Ding Ding

Could be that Boston is debating between Hermida and Ethier offers. What I fear is we kick in LaRoche.

Kevin Goldstein (12:30:50 PM PT): LeverettB24 (Boston, MA): If you were the Red Sox, wouldn't you take Kemp for Manny?

We have about 129 variations of this question in the que. This deal is not available. I repeat. This deal is not available.

I just know Ned is going to blink before Theo, and it's going to haunt us....

So will all the Jason Bay to Tampa headlines center on the Bay/Bay reference, or will they be along the lines of "Devil of a Deal" or something like that?

404 Tech Support!

422 Has he ever blinked on a trade? I am not talking about his free agent deals, but on trades.

I'm picturing mayhem in the Dodgers FO, as Logan White and Kim Ng wrestle with Ned to keep him away from the phone.

423 I thought it was against federal law to use the word 'devil' in connection with that team.

The Red Sox have always been my favorite AL team. If we do send Kemp to them, I hope Ned throws me into the deal.

Someone please hold me, I'm scared...

Just one month and 21 minutes until the waiver-trade deadline for inclusion on postseason rosters!

One score minutes left (is that how you use that word?)

426 - Turn your key! I said, turn your key!

410
You are correct.

Logan: "Just put the phone down, Ned!"
Ned: "You can't stop me. Theo! Theo!"
Kim: "Ned, please, no!"
Ned: "Theo, I'll take...no. It's Batman!!"
Batman: "Drop the phone, Mad Hatter! Do it!!"

I don't want ManRam here if it's only for two months, considering what we would give up. Heyman says part of the deal would be the new team declining the options for 2009, 2010, guaranteeing a rental. Ugh, I'm holding my breath until after the deadline.

432
WarGames?

428 But then you'd be a pink hat. Can you live with that?

426

I'm picturing an old Western with the guy in the white hat and the guy in the black hat wrestling over the six-shooter.

Luckily Kim and Logan have him outnumbered (I hope).

A source told SI.com's Jon Heyman that not only are the Dodgers not offering Matt Kemp for Manny Ramirez, but that they're looking to part with prospects instead of Andre Ethier.

418

That joke's been done three times already, once by Manny Ramirez himself.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3511804

440

Forgot to preface with "hahahahah" because that email was still funny.

Hallelujah!!

If you are ethier or kemp are you excited or nervous....

426 , 432 I actually LOL'd at both of those.

A source told SI.com's Jon Heyman that not only are the Dodgers not offering Matt Kemp for Manny Ramirez, but that they're looking to part with prospects instead of Andre Ethier.

Or, it could be like Private Parts, with Howard Stern, Pig Vomit and the station chief fighting.
"Pig Vomit just hit himself in the head with the phone!"

436
I was thinking Crimson Tide, but I think I was mistaken.

433 Only on this site would I come across a reference to the Systems Analyst. At the time that episode aired, I was in college and one of my roommates was hopeful of becoming a Systems Analyst. We got a good chuckle out of that. It wasn't so funny when he landed a job immediately after graduation making quite a bit more than those of us studying the "Liberal Arts."

439 That would make me happy, except that I have a feeling people say all kinds of thing to Heyman.
A source told SI's Jon Heyman that the Rumanians have cloned a talking donkey.

439 This is the fault of that dastardly and fractured dodgers front office! Curse them for not wanting to make deals proffered by Ken Rosenthal!

Nothing is official until Rosenthal and Olney say it is....

If Heyman's right now, he's admitting he was clueless last night and earlier today. He needs a new source among the Fenway vendors.

not only are the Dodgers not offering

That double negative really freaked me out. I thought at first we were not only offering Kemp but MORE!

Can't wait for the Dunn for Ethier and 2 prospects headline to pop up.

A source told SI's Jon Heyman that he has no freaking idea what he's talking about.

439 445 If they can get away with trading only prospects, that 1) Scares me very much which prospects they are giving away and 2) that HAS to mean Pierre and/or Jones is not playing. I will have lost all faith in this franchise if I see a starting outfield of Pierre/Jones/Ramirez with Either AND Kemp on the bench

12 more minutes to hold off Ned from a bad decision. Will we make it?

A source told SI.com's Jon Heyman that not only are the Dodgers not offering Matt Kemp for Manny Ramirez, but that they're insisting Boston take on a Canadian bus rider's head.

it sure would be nice to still have carlos santana to sweeten a deal to the sox, who would love to find a varitek successor, im sure.

456 Bench upgraded? Check!

459 Casey Blake is giving us .412 since he's been here.

10 minutes folks...we're in the home stretch

Time to breath easy.

Mr. Heyman seems to have a talking anal sphincter.

I've been lurking on this thread, sitting on pins and needles, refreshing every minute or so since I got into work this morning. It's been a tension-filled day, but I had to chime in and say that the biggest development thus far has been the Canadian head taking on a life of its own. Morbid as it sounds, it's provided me with some comic relief as I sit waiting to push the panic button should Colletti trade Kemp away.

461 And Carlos Santana is hitting .200. Ned's a genius.

Also, Bay to the Rays is not official yet aside from that one MLB.com report.

458 please, we could do without those types of jokes. it's in bad bad taste.

i'm curled up in the fetal position shaking under my desk. 1pm can't come fast enough.

Something I learned on CSPAN2, this afternoon: you can pay for gasoline with a post-dated check. I was surprised, since I didn't think gas stations took checks at all, still less post-dated ones, but it must be true. It was on CSPAN. It's possible that's only applicable to senior citizens on their way to hospitals, as that was the scenario presented, but still. Good to know.

This is like the Blair Witch Project, nothing is happening.

FIVE MORE MINUTES

467 Excellent. Anybody know what the hold-up is?

bay might still be going to boston according to Rosenthal...so you know that's legit

bay might still be going to boston according to Rosenthal...so you know that's legit

bay might still be going to boston according to Rosenthal...so you know that's legit

468 Marty is having too many Italian beef sandwiches in Chicago.

Go get some ribs Marty.

I think the Canadian head jokes are too soon. Just like Aids jokes.

471
This is like the Blair Witch Project

And my head kind of hurts, and I feel a little nauseous.

I have to say this is one of our most entertaining threads ever. And that's without anything (Yet! gulp!) happening on the trade front (yet!) Shoulder pats all around. I laughed, I cried, I curled up in the fetal position. Four stars!

Now mlb.com has also backed off the Bay-to-the-Bay deal. Rays are saying Brignac and Niemann are too much.

473 They're saying it doesn't involve both Brignac and Niemann and that one of those two is on the Rays untouchable list, which is hard to believe.

470 No way a gas station would take a check for payment of gas. Its getting to the point where some gas stations are not allowing credit card purchases.

We're melting the Toaster!

480 Did you like the clip?

Maybe Ned is just holding out for our old pal SS Julio Lugo in the deal

471 - This is like the Blair Witch Project

Yes, yes it is:

http://www.rinkworks.com/movieaminute/m/blairwitch.shtml

I don't know who to trust anymore!

I say we do an Ethier/Laroche for Manny/Lowrie deal. That is since we won't let Andy play anyway.

I say we do an Ethier/Laroche for Manny/Lowrie deal. That is since we won't let Andy play anyway.

Sooo, is it over? I'm gonna go lay out in the sun and hope I don't get any bombshells when I come back.

Reading the comments over the last 30 minutes or so, I have come to the conclusion that there is something seriously wrong with all of us.

Reading the comments over the last 30 minutes or so, I have come to the conclusion that there is something seriously wrong with all of us.

Even a non-trade can crash the toaster.

492
We can continue DT when we are all in hell.

This is probably the busiest time of the year, so be patient. Your comment may well have gone through.

Wow, Rosenthal made himself look kind of foolish in that last fifteen minutes or so. No, it's off! No, it's back on! Nope, it's dead.

492

It would be helpful if we just all had our internet access turned off during this time of the year.

That was a little scary. When I couldn't refresh or get back in, I thought for sure Ned had made a horrible deal and I would come back to find an overload of negative comments.

Something seriously wrong with the Toaster, too. Maybe Ned got revenge by hacking into it and crashing its server.

I wonder if the lack of trades at the deadline will be blamed on the dysfunctional Dodger office, which has contaminated the entire MLB.

ZOMG! ESPN is reporting that the Dodgers have traded Juan Pierre and Chris Withrow to the Padres for Greg Maddux!

I think the SBN servers are getting swarmed too. I'm having a really hard time posting on my site.

500 It's dead. No, it's alive! Oh wait...

No deal on Bay.

497 Just in the last fifteen minutes? ;-)

Seriously, it's great, because now the rest of the world knows what must of us here already knew, which is Rosenthal is a complete fool.

502
...really?

492

It would be helpful if we just all had our internet access turned off during this time of the year.

502
It's cruel to torture us with trades of Juan Pierre.

I couldn't seem to get to the Toaster for about 10 or 15 minutes. I can't totally let down my guard yet, but it is probably pretty stupid to worry about a Manny trade.
You get a two month rental and then you have to deal with Boras and Manny. Manny couldn't play anywhere but LF so you have deal with Pierre. Shouldn't happen.

509 I never knew Cal fans would be so up in arms about a story about admission guidelines.

Sorry, my sick humor gets the best of me sometimes. In my group of friends, nothing is too soon and nothing is off limits. Probably from hanging out with TV writers.

Ban Neal Pollack. Ban Neal Pollack.

How good a prospect is Chris Withrow?

I am going to wait another hour or so just to make sure that nothing is pending at Bud's desk.

In less a trade is still being discussed in the Comiss's office, I think the Dodgers did the smart thing. As much as I was fearful of Manny comming for something more than Ethier, I was also concerned about Jack Wilson. I personally think he is a waist of time and the Dodgers are far better off bringing up Hu and letting Nomar get healthy and pray for Furcal or perhaps if the price is right get Eckstein from Toronto during the waiver period.

502 That is cruel and unusual!

...Rosenthal is a complete fool.

And yet, there he will be this Saturday, sharing his "insights" with millions during GOTW.

Okay, well back to drooling over this weekend's great pitching matchups. It's actually okay with me that the AZ/LA series is only of interest to our two cities. Records aside, right now these are two of the hottest and hottest-pitching teams in baseball, and it'll be a thrill to see what happens.

502 Wait, what? I don't see that anywhere. I hope you are not lying sir, wrong time to be toying with Dodger fans' emotions.

511
I had no idea how crazy Cal fans were till I went to a game last year. They hate UCLA with a passion. Heck, every UC school seems to.

If anything we need a Rule 12A banning bogus trade posts in July.

After all the talks about Bay heading to Tampa Bay or Boston, it appears that the Dodgers may have landed the Pirates left fielder just prior to the 4 p.m. ET deadline.

MLB.com has confirmed that they were a late player in the race for Bay and that it was L.A. One industry source in Pittsburgh believes that a deal between the two clubs has been made.

515 Good idea. Gotta stay on alert.

I don't even think it's possible to trade Withrow except as a stealth PBTNL type of deal.

MLB:
After all the talks about Bay heading to Tampa Bay or Boston, it appears that the Dodgers may have landed the Pirates left fielder just prior to the 4 p.m. ET deadline.

San Diego wouldn't give up Ted Danson for Pierre and anyone... much less Greg Maddux.

When Rosenthal appears on a FOX game, it's just very uncomfortable -- I feel like everyone's thinking, "Gosh, what can we do with this guy, he can't get a real job, okay send him into the stands to grab some dork to talk to." But a lot of people think he writes good columns.
I've always thought he was kind of a nitwit; today I'm convinced.

Here is the link:
http://trades.mlblogs.com/

I hope we just gave up Ethier.

Oh Crap

Will Carroll (1:22:15 PM PT): Manny to Dodgers?

Will Carroll (1:22:51 PM PT): Yep, I have two sources on this one, plus Jon Heyman. NO idea on particulars.

Yankees just picked up the guy we traded to DC for Marlon Anderson.

I hope we just gave up Ethier.

Bay for Ethier, sure. Bay for Kemp -- I would not be happy about.

Sorry, guys. I couldn't resist.

ESPN.com is saying the Maddox deal is dead and the Padres have no leverage. I have a hard time seeing the Dodgers giving up a Top 10 pick even with someone else picking up Pierre's contract unless McCourt is filing for bankrupcy.

520 I went to Cal. I went to the UCLA-Cal football game at the Rose Bowl, sitting in the UCLA student section, dressed from head to toe in Cal gear. When Longshore threw a pick after a long, potentially game winning drive, and the UCLA fans cheered and started chanting "OH-ver-RATE-d"... it was the worst sports moment I've ever experienced.

Sorry, guys. I was hoping that by saying it, it would become true. I couldn't resist.

Oh God, this is from Heyman

The Red Sox traded Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers late Thursday afternoon, SI.com has learned.

Nothing on who we gave up

Excuse me I must prepare for the worst

Yankees just picked up the guy we traded to DC for Marlon Anderson.

512
I am sure a good number of us thought it was funny. Never hide the dark humor!

So we acquired Jason Bay and Manny Ramirez? Yeah, that sounds realistic.

Back-to-back posts on ESPN's chat with Keri and Neyer:
Carlos (Los Angeles): Sports Illustrated is reporting that Manny Ramirez was traded to the Dodgers. Can you confirm?

TJ (Washington, DC): Rob- MLB.com is reporting Bay to the DODGERS

Yankees just picked up the guy we traded to DC for Marlon Anderson.

531 Who? Oh, the pitcher? Yadier something?

I think that's still a maybe.

God, I hope you got Bay and not Manny...

By Jon Heyman, SI.com

The Red Sox traded Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers late Thursday afternoon, SI.com has learned.

So we acquired Jason Bay and Manny Ramirez? Yeah, that sounds realistic.

How can anyone work in these conditions?

530
Sorry, but Will is not batting 1.000 here with Manny info.

Sorry for all this posting. Stupid refreshing getting the better of me.

531 - Old friend Jhonny Nunez is a Yank.

Please not the Bison. Please not the Bison.

mlb.com says we got bay

no joke

In other news, Eric Gagne just got ejected from the Cubs-Brewers game after plunking Jim Edmonds in the top of the 9th, Cubs leading 9-1.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/29/heyman.tradeblog/

Says Manny to LA

The Sox are getting Bay in a three way. That may be good for the Dodgers. The Pirates don't necessarily need an outfielder back.

Jason Bay is part of the Manny to LA deal...Bay to Boston.

(Heyman)

546
JUST SPECULATING

It looks like we took the Marlins' place in the three-way deal. Ethier to Pirates for Bay, then Bay to Red Sox for Manny.

AHHHHH! Too much confusion. I can't get no relief.

Oh, Nunez.
For the former Attorney General?

Bay for who? Ethier and Hu? If so, as much as I like Ethier... and Hu... I may have to re-make my opinion of NedCo.

What is this work you speak of?

SI: Manny to Dodgers, Bay to Sox. No word on the Dodgers' end of the deal.

From what I'm understanding, it looks like we traded for Jason Bay and then traded Bay + for Manny. I think I would have rather kept Bay....

So who's in the deal....I'm guessing Ethier and LaRoche for sure....

SI says we got Manny. MLB.com says we got Bay. I know we couldn't have gotten both.

My head is about to explode if this is not cleared up soon

Pirates to get 4 minor leaguers. so no Kemp. Eithier or Kershaw.

HEAD EXPLODING

I'd rather have Bay, but I'm guessing I am about to feel what it's like to be in prison.

Four minor leaguers to the Pirates!!!!!!! At least it's not Kemp.

565 Per who? WHO??!?!?!?

I think I would have rather kept Bay

Me too.

Why wouldn't we just keep Bay instead of going after Manny?

Ahhhhhhn

I don't get it. Why wouldn't Coletti just keep Jason Bay instead of swapping him for Manny? There must be money and/or prospects involved.

Rosenthal:
Manny Ramirez has been traded to the Dodgers in a three-team blockbuster, pending the approval of the commissioner's office, according to a source with knowledge of the deal.

Announcement to come in conjunction with the WBC press conference.

As long as it's not Kemp I'll live with this one. But how can the Dodgers afford the rest of Manny's salary? Or is Boston eating some of it?

God, this is all so torturous.

"The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Damien Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox.

The Red Sox will pay all of the approximately $7 million remaining on Ramirez's contract."

Rosenthal

God this is torture.

Jason Bay is headed to Boston as part of the deal, SI.com has learned. The Pirates will get four minor leaguers in the three-way trade.

Maybe there's hope? I hope there's hope.

The four minor leaguers have to all be coming from the Dodgers. Bye bye Andy LaRoche, that's for sure.

512 What would be really weird was if they tie this guy in with all the feet found in B.C.

I see, a lot of people shared my thought there.
I bet Boston is throwing in more. They couldn't deal directly with Pittsburgh, because Manny would refuse to go there. And the Dodgers couldn't make a deal work with the Pirates because they (you) weren't willing to part with enough to get Bay. The Sox kick in something, cash maybe or prospects.

Could that be it?

guess here... LaRoche seems certainly gone but he would be blocked by (or block) the guy they drafted from vandy Alvarez or whoever...

The rest are probably Hu, McDonald and another pitcher...

576
I kinda figured the LaRoche boys would be united...

This deal doesn't make sense--our OF is not Manny, Kemp, Jones, Pierre and Ethier??

576
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I swear I am shivering and shaking and hardly breathing.

So we have Manny, Pierre, Kemp, Jones and Either in the outfield. Doesn't make sense

576
LaRoche and Morris for Manny.

I can accept that, Ned.

Laroche, thats sucks, but at least he will get to play now. Good luck Andy. This is a good deal to get Manny's bat, but only if we go with Manny/Kemp/Ethier.

Who's Damien Moss?

Brandon Moss, maybe?

The only way this deal makes sense is if Pierre and Andruw are on the bench. Otherwise, you gave up LaRoche for the benefit of benching Ethier.

ESPN confirmed Manny to LA

Giving up LaRoche & Bryan Morris for 2 months of Manny.

I dont know how I feel about that.

The Dodgers are really going to need to re-tool pretty much their entire infield next year.

Colletti's going out like gangbusters.
He's burning the entire thing down lol...

LaRoche and Morris for 2 months of Manny?

This is insane. I don't know what to think. On the one hand, it will be HUGE and fun to have Manny. And they still have Kemp. On the other hand I'm sad to lose LaRoche if that's true. And our OF is way too crowded. That part particularly makes NO sense.

As I said, this can't be right--we now have five starting outfielders???

If that's all we're giving up, I'm quite OK with this deal.
Two-month rental = compensatory draft picks after Manny walks. And Manny definitely is a Type A free agent.

In the end, Ned did what we all feared he would do: mortgage part of our future to save his job and please Bill Plaschke.

espn news just said the manny story isn't dead...and specifically mentioned the Dodgers. God i can't wait till this is over.

I like Andy LaRoche, too, but if the Dodgers do the right thing and play Ethier over Jones/Pierre, this trade makes this team VERY tough to beat, at least in the NL West.

If we get Ramirez for LaRoche, we now have 5 starting OFers?
vr, Xei

Alright, Canuck, pack your bag of knives we are headed to Los Angeles!!!

BTW, I now don't want Kim Ng or Logan White to be GM. I want a new management team, because I have no faith in this one.

Colletti's going out like gangbusters.
He's burning the entire thing down lol...

Sabean must be very pleased with his agent's performance.

Speculation we may have received Jack Wilson too.

Jon Heyman: The club options on Ramirez's contract for $20 million each in both 2009 and '10 were dropped.

So we traded LaRoche and Morris for two months of Manny Ramirez. If the Dodgers do anything but win the World Series this year, this deal will be a bust.

594 . With five starting OF's, we won't need no stinkin' infield! They can have Martin and Loney play free safety.

So, now we are renting a LF and a 3B. Great.

Its definitely not as bad as giving up Kemp for 2 months of Manny.

The Dodgers have plenty of everyday OF'ers now.

588 - Andruw is now nicknamed "Manny Ramirez's Legs."

Can't wait for that first conversation between Manny and Kent.

And does this mean we need a permanent doorman at the left-field bullpen gate now?

I'd like to reiterate that I'd much rather have Bay than Manny. Ned and McCourt are only concerned about big names....

Good luck Andy.....Ned don't let the door hit you on the way out

Also of note the Dodgers will be moving to the AL to use Manny as a DH and will also employ a Rover position similar to women's softball to utilize Pierre while not having a SS because they have none healthy on their roster.

Haven't heard of Morris? Anyone know about his potential? If LaRoche is gone, do we eventually play DeWitt next year? Who's going to start now in the outfield now? I will vomit if Pierre/Jones/Manny is the starting outfield.

591
It is Brandon. Rosenthal corrected the typo.

I would actually feel happy for LaRoche if this is true, at least that he gets to play with his bro and get some starts. I'd be okay if the Dodgers re-sign C Blake or if DeWitt wins it next year. And don't mind losing Morris. But the crowded outfield part makes NO sense. Does Ned think we have a DH in the NL?

LaRoche couldn't be part of our present, I don't see how he would ever be part of our future.

I can't wait for a Manny-Kemp-Ethier OF.

Kemp
Ethier
Martin
Manny
Kent
Loney
Blake
Nomar/Berroa

MmmmmmMMmMmmmm.

I like this deal if it is true...

The fact that we have 5 OF'ers has me questioning the validity though. I am still scared we threw in Ethier somewhere.

There has to be another deal in the mix, right? We can't have 5 starters in the OF

I would have rather kept Bay, but maybe the Pirates weren't giving up Bay unless they received the Sox prospects. If Pierre and Jones sit, the Dodgers will run away with the division.

So who comes off the 25 man roster to make room for 2 months of Manny being Manny?

From MLB.com:

"The Pirates will be announcing a trade shortly, as they are a part of a three-team trade that involves the Pirates, Dodgers and Red Sox.

According to an industry source, Manny Ramirez has been dealt to the Dodgers.

The Pirates are believed to have gotten Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen from Boston and Bryan Morris and Andy LaRoche, the brother of Pirates' Adam LaRoche, from Los Angeles.

Boston is believed to have received Bay. There is speculation that Jack Wilson, too, may have been dealt (to Los Angeles), though that has been unconfirmed.

None of the three teams has confirmed anything as of now."

The Pirates will be announcing a trade shortly, as they are a part of a three-team trade that involves the Pirates, Dodgers and Red Sox.

According to an industry source, Manny Ramirez has been dealt to the Dodgers.

The Pirates are believed to have gotten Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen from Boston and Bryan Morris and Andy LaRoche, the brother of Pirates' Adam LaRoche, from Los Angeles.

Boston is believed to have received Bay. There is speculation that Jack Wilson, too, may have been dealt (to Los Angeles), though that has been unconfirmed.

None of the three teams has confirmed anything as of now.

597 The plan is to not use a shortstop and have Jones and Pierre alternate as an OF rover.

WBC Press Conference is streaming from dodger.com now.

Everywhere is slammed right now.

I think the Dodgers do okay out of this -- of course I don't know as much about LaRoche as you guys do. The team doesn't pay for Manny's services, and you get the draft picks when he walks. If the picks compensate for the two prospects, you basically get a great bat for August and September and don't pay for it. Not bad.

Some men aren't looking for anything logical. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

I think Ned Colletti is one of those men.

If Wilson was really in this too, then Eithier, at the least, is gone.

Can somebody plz confirm or deny whether or not many is a Gamer?!

We had two excellent young third basemen.

They were both ready or just about ready for their shot.

One of them was bound to be moved.

The writing has been on the wall for at least four months that LaRoche would be the one to go.

Getting Manny for two months out of that scenario isn't too bad.

On the plus side... I can't wait to see Manny here in SF next week. That's gonna be awesome.

I have 1-2 extra tickets for the Friday the 8th game in SF if any of you are interested and up here in the bay area, let me know asap. Tix are good seats. underdog8 at gmail dot com

Only thing I can say for sure right now: man does our defense suck.

Manny will no doubt be a great influence on our younger players.

Sounds good to me. Good job Ned.

627 . Colletti, Torre, McCourt, whoever else was part of this, damn you all to Hell. And Ramirez can go there as well.

628 . RIYank
I think the Dodgers do okay out of this

Fellas, do I detect a difference of opinion?

if the Dodgers got Jack Wilson, too, then I'm much more in favor of this trade.

So how many early draft picks could we potentially have now, 17? Yeesh.

FWIW, Neyer likes the trade for the Dodgers.

If this means an OF of Manny/Kemp/Ethier than it could be awesome. But something tells me Ethier is going somewhere.

629 Why so serious?

633
How much do they cost if you don't mind saying?

I'll miss what Andy LaRoche could have been.

But, objectively, this is not a bad deal. Not a damn-it-to-hell kind of deal, although I'm sure a few such comments are loading up. It's a win-now deal that has a tolerable impact on the future.

Hey, at least he didn't trade LaRoche for Dennys Baez.

Another way of looking at it. We've spent a lot of money on Derek Lowe, Jeff Kent and Nomar. They will all be gone next year and we'll be a lot younger. Getting Manny optimizes that expenditure if it gets us a title. If.

Odd to think the Pirates wouldn't take Andre Ethier instead of LaRoche. Would fill Bay's spot for Pittsburgh, ease the OF logjam in L.A., and keep LaRoche in L.A. for next year's barren infield.

Manny is one of the best clutch hitters of the last 5 years, and he hasn't lost that.

If we get to the playoffs, that will be huge.

LaRoche is a future solid player, and while it would've been great to finally give him the shot he deserves, at least this moves keeps things very interesting in the NL West and in the NL in general for the rest of the season. I'm on board with this one.

Ned is a freaking genius. I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier!

Manny plays 7 innings, Juan Pierre pinch runs for him in the late innings, and then Andruw Jones will come in late for defensive purposes. It only took Ned $47 million to fill the LF spot!

What's the over/under on how many Pierre/Jones/Manny starts there'll be?

I'd be jumping out of my shoes if we traded for Bay. For Manny, I'm merely ok with the trade. All bets are off if it turns out we traded Ethier to acquire Wilson, though.

I almost bought a LaRoche jersey shirt earlier this year too.

644 They're probably thinking McLouth/McCutchen/Doumit in the long term. They've got nothing at third.

627--You gotta include Logan White in there too. Everything that is written, he signs off on the deal.

Having Manny for 2 months I'm actually looking forward too. He'll at least provide entertainment.

If the deal had been DeWitt/Morris---> that would have been a ton better.

Ethier has to be going to the Pirates if the Dodgers are also getting Wilson back.

There's only so many spots on the 25 man roster.

You have to give something to get something. Manny providing power is worth it. LaRoche had already been passed up by Blake, at least in the eyes of management.

I think our pitching depth can withstand the loss of Morris.

At worst, we make a run this year and replenish with draft picks when Manny leaves.

I can dig it.

I'm hoping this is as simple as Jones pulling his [insert muscle]. But if we got Wilson....

Going out on a limb, I'm going to say the Dodgers were on the receiving end of another team's desperation - for once.
Once the FLA-BOS-PIT deal fell through, NedCo acted quickly and presented a lowball offer.
I will gladly take two months of Manny plus two high draft picks for a pair of minor leaguers.

642 60$ each. Weird, I could've sworn I emailed you on these -- did you not get it? Maybe I have the wrong address...

631

If you saw how slow Manny was running to first base on a ground ball heading down the third base line the other night, he's not a gamer.

644 I think the Pirates are looking for McCutchen to replace Bay in the OF. Getting Laroche, Moss (who will also replace Bay/Nady), and a couple pitchers is a pretty good haul for Bay.

Good God, what are we going to do with our outfield? I guess Pierre and Ethier platoon now. Pierre in CF and Manny in LF is going to be horrific to watch.

BOOM!

640 That's the rub. You've got to figure Kemp and Manny are locks for a lineup spot, but what happens to Ethier, Pierre and Jones?

Even those who think defense is totally irrelevant have to be concerned about an outfield with Manny and Pierre in the corners.

It's a shame Manny won't be here for tonight.

Morris/LaRoche for 2 months of Manny is way way way better than Santana/Meloan for Casey Blake.

If all the Dodgers gave up was Morris/LaRoche, then I have to say this is one of Ned's better deals.

At least he traded for a good player.

I told you that is why I wait an hour for jumping into the yeah no trade pool.

New York Times says Theo kept pushing until Ned folded: http://tinyurl.com/5dxz8e

Think of it this way. the Dodgers traded Larouche (whom for whatever reason they did not like) and Morris for 2 months of Manny & 2 first round picks as compensation when Manny leaves. Not bad

637 ;-)
Well, everyone likes their own prospects a little more.
And, as I said, I might be off on LaRoche's value.

Why would Manny want the two 20 million dollar option dropped? He's not going to get that much as a free agent is he?

If Either hasn't moved, then get ready for a Jones/Pierre and Kemp/Eithier platoon.

Good Times ahead.

Manny should draw a lot of walks in the #3 spot with Kent hitting behind him.

Just Another OutFielder For Ned Colletti.

My initial reaction:

1) I'm heartbroken to see LaRoche go
2) I absolutely love Manny Ramirez, quirkiness and all
3) At least in giving up LaRoche, it was for one of the best players in MLB
4) If Wilson is involved, and Ethier is gone, I don't like it.

644. Especially odd since they drafted Pedro Alvarez who is supposed to be close to MLB ready and a masher.

658--Why couldnt the Dodgers go with:

Manny--LF
Kemp--CF
Ethier--RF

Druw/Pierre can collect splinters on the bench.

Looking ahead to next year, we get possibly 4 or 5 draft picks from Blake and Manny leaving, and we have a whole infield save 1B to replace. If we look in-house we have Hu, Dewitt, possibly DeJesus? Who's out there on the free agent block for infielders this offseason?

Outstanding deal for the Dodgers.

This is a textbook illustration of how you use prospects in a trade EFFECTIVELY to improve your team.

Don't think I've forgotten about you either, LA media.

If this is true, the question becomes "does Ramirez's bat overcome his defensive deficiencies?"

I'm not sure.

Rosenthal: Sox will pay all of Manny's salary.

667

I believe Manny thinks he can get 4yr 100mil contract.

I fully expect Andruw Jones to be DFA'd. Manny/Kemp/Ethier is an AMAZING outfield. I love the deal. I'm also at work and just put in the soundbyte. I'm shaking over the whole thing.

668 - No way is Kemp platooned.

So what do we think now about the alleged "payroll-neutral" mandate?

From Rotoworld:

No word yet on whether agent Scott Boras was also able to add a clause forcing the Dodgers not to offer Ramirez arbitration. Ramirez would be more valuable as a free agent this winter if the teams pursuing him didn't have to worry about losing a draft pick. The Dodgers might not want to offer arbitration anyway.

673 It's the only way the deal makes sense for me...

I haven't seen anywhere, aside from here, that Ethier and Jack Wilson are on the move.

Anybody in the D.C. area for the Dodgers-Nats series in late August? I want to see these new look Dodgers with my own eyes.

If they actually DFA'd Jones, I'd like this deal a lot more.

Jones might now be the world's most expensive defensive replacement.

NPUT

685 MLB Trade Blogs mentioned Wilson as speculation. Ethier rumors come from here.

How soon can Manny be in the line-up?

NPUT

Either hasn't moved, then get ready for a Jones/Pierre and Kemp/Eithier platoon.

So the Dodgers now have 1 everyday OF'er.
And 4 guys platooning in 2 spots.

Thats something.

Pee Wee has to be upset...;)

677 You'd rather have Jones, with his Gold Glove and his .166 average in the lineup rather than a guy who's hitting .299 with 20 HRs?

fun to look at:

Kemp CF
Ethier RF
Martin C
Ramirez LF
Kent 2B
Loney 1B
Nomar SS
Blake 3B
Thighmaster P

That is LEGIT.

This comes down to who Manny replaces. Kemp is already a more valuable player this year thanks to Manny's defense and Ethier isn't far behind. If he replaces either of those two, we gave up LaRoche and Morris for nothing.

I never ever thought I'd see Manny and Kent and Bowa on the same team. I would have lost a lot of money betting against this trade ever happening.

Manny in Left Field for the Dodgers. It is a big name and LA loves it's big names. Bet the place is hopping this weekend.

Now it all comes down to who Torre plays on how big a trade this was for us.

Sweeney be gone.

Boras would have too agree to not accept arbitration for us to get two draft picks.
On the other hand, I guess we could pay to get Manny's 37 year without any more, which might be OK.

678 Whoa... if true, that's great.

Except for messing up the arbitration/draft pick thing for next year if that part's true, too.

Any word on whether there's any other players attached to this?

Manny for rest of 2008 per Marcel projections:
.287/.386/.516 with 11 HR and 12 2B

Nomar to the DL, to make room for Manny?

664 Theo pushed us until we folded but LaRoche/Morris is all we gave up? Sure. I love LaRoche and thought he would have succeeded here had he been given a full outright chance this year at third, but essentially we got Manny (for free plus compensation picks) for two minor leaguers. We got a good deal.

651 -- If White approved this, then damn him too. But I see no reason to believe he approved it. People were just assuming he had some sort of veto power. Does he have influence? Sure. But in this case, his opinion could have been asked for and it was over-ruled.

I think it comes down to McCourt. McCourt has sided with White in the past, but today he may have sided with Colletti. In fact, he may have ordered Colletti to get a deal done. At the Dodgers.com board, somebody there posted that they have a friend who works in a low level marketing department job at Dodger Stadium. He says his friend told him that the talk around the office was that McCourt was furious when he heard about the Angels landing a big fish like Teixeira. So I can see getting Ramirez as a McCourt-driven move to "keep up" with the Angels. And of course for McCourt it would help that Ramirez was a Red Sox hero. This is a PR-driven trade to make Plashke happy, basically, but also a "Win Now" trade since LaRoche and Morris obviously weren't going to contribute anything this year.

I repeat, new post up top.

I'm AMAZED that anyone here would want Manny or Maddux. I don't care what Maddux did in 2006 or 98, 99, 2000 etc. This is 08 and he has pretty much shown that he is on the wrong side of the hill. Besides that someone would have to be shipped to make room for him. Do really believe that Sweeny's going to get DFA'd? News flash if it hasn't happened by now it ain't going to happen and the likely candidate would be DY cause JP and AJ, much as you guys would like to believe they are, aren't going anywhere. And you're using the same excuses the neD uses for JP ' HE's great in the club house and he'd teach the young guys so much', gee that's worth getting rid of one of the only viable bats off bench the Dodgers have left. Then there's the very real possibility that the way he's pitched this year isn't an aberration but has become the norm. Then what? just take him out of the line up? put him on the DL?

I also can't figure out why so many of you undervalue Ethier so much. Compared to Manny Andre's 1000% better in the field has above average speed, a gun for an arm and although his bat might not be in Manny's class it's still solid and remember Manny plays 1/2 of his games in an EXTREME hitters park. Add to that that Manny has already said that he doesn't want his option picked up so if it is he'll probably make the Dodger FO and the fans wish they hadn't gotten him. Whereas Andre has done nothing but go out and do his job regardless of how he's gotten jacked by torre. If his option isn't picked up than deN has given away an above average OFer for 2 months of Manny and now has to go out and find another OF comparable to what Ethier brought. Or he sticks with an OF of PJ, AJ and Kemp which would REALLY send you guys into howling mode. All in all I'm just amazed that you guys really think a deal for Maddux and/or Manny would actually be a good one.

LaRoche gets sent for a 2 month rental on a below average fielding OF?!? That's it I'm done. I refuse to watch, root or support the Dodgers in any way til deN is gone. Later guys.

405 Ethier being gone looks to be speculation. I'd be against this trade if he were somehow gone. However, and this has yet to be mentioned, there is still a huge discrepancy between AL and NL, so I predict Manny has a huge August, September, and October, because this trade also makes us favorites in the NL West. And Ned actually did something that's not catastrophic. He didn't sacrifice a Kemp, Kershaw, Ethier, or someone else that our future hinged on besides LaRoche and he got back a positively impacting player who is a big bat that hasn't lost it like AJ has. It's not so bad to want him on our team.

707 Rather that was directed at 705 My bad.

Walter Alston will not allow Manny to wear his number 24.

Manny is confirmed on an American Airlines flight to arrive at LAX tomorrow 8/1. Don't ask me how I know.