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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Greatest Game Ever?
2008-11-25 15:17
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

What was the Greatest Game Ever Played in major league baseball history – the sport's equivalent to the 1958 Colts-Giants NFL championship classic? For a story he's working on, Bill Shaikin of the Times e-mailed me to ask Dodger Thoughts readers for their opinions.

First thoughts I had were Yankees-Pirates 1960 World Series Game 7 or Red Sox-Reds 1975 Game 6. However, Shaikin pointed out that there is also the issue of how big a factor social or cultural significance should play in the decision. The 1958 NFL game, for example, launched pro football as a national television obsession. What major league game had it going on, both on the field and off?

Comments (209)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-11-25 15:21:06
1.   Eric Stephen
April 15, 1947 has to be thrown in the mix too.
2008-11-25 15:21:19
2.   trainwreck
I just voted, TC.
2008-11-25 15:23:09
3.   DBrim
1 Definitely the biggest in the social or cultural significance field.
2008-11-25 15:25:30
4.   Harold M Johnson
As much as I hate the outcome. October 3, 1951. Not only was it one of the defining moments in American professional sports' best rivalry, it also became an iconic moment in Baseball history and was heard by millions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_'Round_the_World_(baseball)
2008-11-25 15:25:31
5.   trainwreck
Texas vs Notre Dame tonight in a big time basketball game.

Two teams UCLA has to play this year and two teams that will be a difficult matchup.

2008-11-25 15:27:13
6.   Indiana Jon
LATed from last thread.

In defense of Rose's hit on Fosse, he didn't know he was going to seriously injure the guy. I kind of admire a guy willing to play just as hard in an exhibition game as he would play in game 7 of the World Series. In hindsight it looked like a stupid move, but if Fosse had just dropped the ball and got up uninjured, I think it's a good play on Rose's part. Whatever you think of Rose, he made a long successful career out of playing harder than those with his same skill level.

2008-11-25 15:28:20
7.   Indiana Jon
To me the greatest game I ever saw was the Donnie Moore game. It was either an exciting game or my memory sucks.
2008-11-25 15:29:43
8.   MC Safety
Is Dustin Pedroia The Next Pete Rose?
2008-11-25 15:30:21
9.   trainwreck
The greatest game I saw was last two seasons ago between the Giants and A's that went into extras and all kinds of craziness occurred like seeing Pedro Feliz at catcher.
2008-11-25 15:30:59
10.   trainwreck
9
Two seasons ago, not last.
2008-11-25 15:35:38
11.   trainwreck
I like my baseball games like Greg Brock likes his women...

Crazy!

2008-11-25 15:36:16
12.   silverwidow
Rosenthal says we're on Jack Wilson AGAIN.
2008-11-25 15:37:35
13.   silverwidow
We might be after Pettite also!
2008-11-25 15:37:50
14.   cargill06
12 Is he a free agent?
2008-11-25 15:37:53
15.   Bob Timmermann
Game 6 of the 1975 World Series was seen by a lot more people than Game 7 of the 1960 World Series.

Even though it was a night game that had gone into extra innings and finished after midnight local time.

The only game I have ever watched on TV that was remotely close in tension was Game 7 of the 2001 World Series.

2008-11-25 15:38:07
16.   bhsportsguy
Game 6 of 1975 World Series might be the biggest because it planted the seed for now playing the World Series entirely at night.
2008-11-25 15:39:49
17.   Jason in Canada
October 15, 1988.

Dodgers 5
Athletics 4

At least for me anyways!

2008-11-25 15:39:58
18.   Indiana Jon
8 We'll know in 2029.
2008-11-25 15:40:04
19.   ToyCannon
Hate to say it but I'd go game six 1975 World Series. It had everything and while it didn't have any cultural effect I do think it helped bring baseball back into living room.
This one is in my top five.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/67929/the_greatest_baseball_game_ever_played.html

This is a good place to start.
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/excerpts/greatest_games.stm

2008-11-25 15:41:08
20.   godvls
7 - The Donnie Moore/Dave Henderson game is the greatest game I've ever been to. Best game I ever saw on television was Game 6 of the 1975 World Series.
2008-11-25 15:41:37
21.   silverwidow
14 No, the Pirates want Hu in a trade.
2008-11-25 15:42:33
22.   Frip
However, Shaikin pointed out that there is also the issue of how big a factor social or cultural significance should play in the decision.

This is one thing I hate sportswriters and music critics for. The game or music just isn't good enough for them for its own sake. At heart they feel the game is trivial and not worthy of their attention unless self consciously infused with "social significance". Especially since they're jumpy about not being taken seriously themselves.

2008-11-25 15:44:01
23.   68elcamino427
My vote goes to the first game at Yankee Stadium following 9/11.
2008-11-25 15:44:23
24.   ToyCannon
Xeifrank and Eric thanks for the age tip on BB-Ref, I never knew about the age sort on that side of the page.
2008-11-25 15:44:25
25.   Tripon
The 2002 all-star game. It lead to the world series home advantage being given to the league winning the all-star game.

In all serious though, I think the Don Larsen's perfect game in '56 in the world series has to rank up there in terms of historic games.

2008-11-25 15:45:11
26.   Kevin Lewis
I think it is funny that the woman's hat is considered as such because it is pink
2008-11-25 15:47:15
27.   blue22
Game 6 in '75 also has the distinction of ending on the day I was born, so it was socially significant to me!
2008-11-25 15:51:44
28.   Dodgers49
Piniella: Cubs are done seeking Peavy

>> With rotation set, manager says club looking for left-handed bat. <<

http://tinyurl.com/5q98xb

2008-11-25 15:51:47
29.   Marty
I'd vote for the Shot Heard Round the World. Then game 6 1975. Then the Mickey Owen passed ball game.
2008-11-25 15:52:38
30.   Eric Enders
It's hard to argue with 1975 Game 6. I'd also throw Game 8 of the 1912 Series into the mix.

I'd probably nominate 9/18/06 as the greatest game in regular season history, but my objectivity can't be trusted in that regard.

The 2007 NL Wild Card playoff was pretty great.

2008-11-25 15:54:20
31.   Harold M Johnson
By the way I didn't get a chance to comment on the sly Curb reference in the last post-- nice one Jon.
2008-11-25 15:54:25
32.   Eric Stephen
24
I love the Play Index. I remember buying something in like 1992 at Radio Shack that was the size of a pocket calculator but could sort baseball stats. The Play Index is like the evolution of that little treasure.
2008-11-25 15:54:41
33.   Eric Enders
How about the famous 1963 Giants-Braves game? 1-0 in 16 innings, ending on a walk-off homer by Mays, with Spahn and Marichal each pitching all 16 innings.
2008-11-25 15:55:29
34.   Marty
The Sid Bream playoff game is Barry Bonds' favorite. Game 6 of the 2002 series is up there too.
2008-11-25 15:55:46
35.   bhsportsguy
33 What about the Harvey Haddix game ending on a Adcock "double."
2008-11-25 15:56:11
36.   Eric Enders
33 http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196307020.shtml
2008-11-25 15:58:03
37.   Eric Enders
23 The first game in NY after 9/11 was at Shea.
2008-11-25 15:58:41
38.   Bob Timmermann
29
Actually, Mickey Owen committed an error, not a passed ball.
2008-11-25 15:59:27
39.   John Hale
I vote for game 6, 1975 because I was an 8 year old who had never been off the west coast but happened to be in Boston that night on a family trip to celebrate the impending Bicentennial. (my parents planned ahead)
If it happened at midnight I must have still been on West Coast time to stay up that late but I vividly remember the city of Boston going bananas that night. And Joe Morgan was on the losing side that night so it has that going for it.
2008-11-25 16:00:19
40.   Dave60
0 The Giants/Cubs tie-breaking game in '08. (The last '08.) The game culminated a season in which the game truly grew into a national obsession. The emotional intensity around the game remains palpable, 100 years later.
2008-11-25 16:01:05
41.   Marty
Game 7 of 1975 was big for me. That was when I won a baseball pool for the first, and so far last time.
2008-11-25 16:01:26
42.   trainwreck
Holy crud! Ben Howland is implementing more motion offense into the system instead of so many called plays.
2008-11-25 16:01:50
43.   Marty
That's right, the Merkle game!
2008-11-25 16:02:12
44.   underdog
I might be in the minority here but I wouldn't mind the Dodgers signing Andy Pettite. I always liked him and if they insist on signing a FA pitcher or two, would rather him than some of the other stiffs out there. Of course, I'd rather CC Sabathia but this is in whole 'nother category.

Still trying to figure out what my pick would be for greatest game ever... The 4+1 game has a special place in my heart of course, but doesn't have the wider significance or some of the famous "big games". I think I'd second that 1975 game 6 pick if pressed.

2008-11-25 16:03:47
45.   Tripon
According to Ken Rosenthal, free agent lefty Andy Pettitte spoke to Joe Torre multiple times about the possibility of signing with the Dodgers. Rosenthal notes that Pettitte has a history of leaving when he doesn't feel wanted, and the Yankees are taking a laid-back approach toward him this winter. Still, the Yankees remain Pettitte's first choice. Rosenthal does not see Pettitte returning to Houston.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-11-25 16:04:57
46.   Eric Enders
The last game of the 1950 season between the Dodgers and Phillies doesn't get a whole lot of pub but probably belongs in this discussion.

http://tinyurl.com/5wqlpe

2008-11-25 16:07:56
47.   John Hale
42
You don't think change is a good thing? Or you do? I am more worried about the defense then the offense at this point.
2008-11-25 16:08:31
48.   bhsportsguy
In no particular order:
Merkle game Cubs vs. Giants, 1908, Polo Grounds

1919 World Series Game 1 Reds vs. White Sox(First pitch)

Opening Day 1923, Yankee Stadium

Lou Gehrig Day, July 4, 1939, Yankee Stadium

Williams hits .400 (.406) Doubleheader Red Sox vs. Athletics, 1941

Jackie Robinson's 1st Game, April 15, 1947, Ebbets Field

Bobby Thompson, Dodgers vs. Giants, 1951, Polo Grounds

Harvey Haddix's Perfect Game and beyond,
Pittsburgh vs. Milwaukee

Maz beats Yankees, Yankees vs. Pirates, 1960, Forbes Field

Carlton Fisk puts the Reds to bed, Reds vs. Red Sox, 1975, Fenway Park.

Bucky Dent invents new curse words for Red Sox Nation, Yankees vs. Red Sox, 1978, Fenway Park

"I can't believe what I just saw", A's vs. Dodgers, 1988, Dodger Stadium

2008-11-25 16:09:03
49.   Dave60
43 Yup, the Merkle game. One thing I remember about the game (I may be slightly off, but I'm close) is Teddy Roosevelt's brother crawling through a stormdrain to gain illicit entry into the ballpark. Can one imagine a sporting event of such magnitude that Jeb Bush would climb through a stormdrain?
2008-11-25 16:11:40
50.   bhsportsguy
40 The "Merkle Game" was the game whose result made the one-game playoff a necessity.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-11-25 16:11:58
51.   Jon Weisman
31 - Thanks. Now, what was it I did?
2008-11-25 16:11:58
52.   trainwreck
47
I think it is great and I am shocked Howland is doing it.
2008-11-25 16:16:15
53.   ToyCannon
51
I'd like to read a post someday about why "shifty" is part of your identity. Give us fiction if the real story isn't a page turner.
2008-11-25 16:19:26
54.   Dave60
50 Good clarification. My nomination is the game made necessary by the Merkle game.
2008-11-25 16:19:38
55.   bhsportsguy
50 Correction

The "Merkle game" was declared a tie, so the NL in their wisdom, had the Cubs and Giants replay the game, which the Cubs won and then they went on to win their last World Series in a 100 years.

2008-11-25 16:20:51
56.   Eric Enders
50 That isn't really the case, though. The Merkle game is frequently mischaracterized as a playoff but was actually a regular season game that was simply replayed at the end of the year.

I believe the first time two teams actually tied for the pennant was in 1946 when the Dodgers and Cardinals tied. (Actually, there was a quasi-tie in the 1915 Federal League I believe, but nobody really cares about that one.)

2008-11-25 16:20:53
57.   silverwidow
What about 9/9/65...?
2008-11-25 16:21:11
58.   Eric Enders
doh.
2008-11-25 16:21:48
59.   Tripon
The Dodgers, seeking a possible replacement for free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal, balked at the Pirates' asking price for shortstop Jack Wilson during recent trade talks, according to major-league sources.

The Pirates, who are discussing Wilson with several teams, wanted Dodgers shortstop Chin-Lung Hu and two other young players, sources say.

This seems silly. Why not just play Hu who will give you similar production?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8848344/Sources:-Dodgers-revive-interest-in-Pirates%27-Wilson?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

2008-11-25 16:22:11
60.   bhsportsguy
54 Your choice, 10/8/08 - Cubs vs. Giants, Polo Grounds.

According to published reports, nearly 250,000 fans show up at the Polo Grounds to watch the disputed replay of the September 23 game between the Cubs and Giants. The gates were closed at 1:30 for the 3:00 game, but still fans tried to storm the gates. Fireman with high pressure hoses knocked down fans who tried to scale the walls. Nearly 40,000 fans watched from Coogan's Bluff, telephone poles and other vantage points. Two fans are killed when they fall from a pillar on the elevated subway platform. Later admitting he had nothing on the ball, Christy Mathewson loses, 4–2, to the Cubs, giving way to Hooks Wiltse in the 8th.: Three Finger Brown, relieving Jack Pfiester in the first, gets the win.

2008-11-25 16:22:56
61.   Xeifrank
I will buck the trend and instead of Game 6 of the 1975 series, I will go with Game 7 of the 1975 W.S., as I was a big Reds fan back then. vr, Xei
2008-11-25 16:23:12
62.   Eric Enders
59 Is Hu a former all-star?

Does he have a stereotypical middle infielder name like Jack Wilson?

Is he scrappy enough?

Didn't think so.

2008-11-25 16:23:30
63.   ToyCannon
Does a poster here do this blog?
http://www.firenedcollettinow.com/
2008-11-25 16:25:05
64.   bhsportsguy
57 I thought about that game but is their anything different about that perfect game than other perfect games. Sure, the quality of the pitcher but I did not choose Larsen's perfect game in the World Series so I felt I couldn't choose that one.

Also, it was an era where more than likely the rest of the country didn't read about it until the next afternoon.

2008-11-25 16:25:12
65.   Jon Weisman
53 - Fiction it is!
2008-11-25 16:25:12
66.   Dave60
60 Yup, that's the one. And I stand corrected on the fact that it was a replay of a tie. It acted just like a tie-breaker, but was officially a slightly different beast.
2008-11-25 16:26:25
67.   Tripon
62 He's also not making $7.5 million a year.
2008-11-25 16:27:05
68.   bhsportsguy
59 While there is no guarantee that Hu won't produce like Wilson, there is nothing to be gained from his 2008 season to give you confidence that he will produce the same or better either.
2008-11-25 16:29:13
69.   Xeifrank
My 2nd vote would go to a game that I am having trouble finding on Retrosheet or BB-Ref and wondering why nobody has mentioned it. When I was a kid, i could've swore I watched a game where Bugs Bunny struck out the side on one pitch!
vr, Xei
2008-11-25 16:29:19
70.   John Hale
52
I can't remember Howland adjusting like this before but it does seem like good news.
I wish I could see the ND-Texas game today. I also hope Oregon does not lose by 30. The Pac-10 is so far down this year. 3 teams in the tourney?
2008-11-25 16:31:20
71.   Xeifrank
69. I'm not sure, but it may have been this game. Let me see. vr, Xei .... SFW
http://tinyurl.com/6rsffx
2008-11-25 16:31:58
72.   silverwidow
64 For me, the greatest pitcher of all-time in his defining moment.
2008-11-25 16:32:37
73.   Harold M Johnson
51 I guess I'm too clever for my own good, I thought you were referencing "Long Ball Larry" from Curb Your Enthusiasm.
2008-11-25 16:34:13
74.   Tripon
68 Hu has one of the worst years offensively posting a 24 OPS+ in 2008, but its not as if Wilson even approached what an averaged hitter looks like with a 77 OPS+ and playing only 89 games with injuries.

You're selling low on Hu, and trading him along with other prospects to buy a mediocre, injury-prone player in Jack Wilson. I know Hu's may never hit offensively, but we know that Wilson never will. And defensively, its a wash. There's no point of trading for Wilson straight up, much less for Hu and two prospects. It'd be trading for $1.20 on the dollar.

2008-11-25 16:34:50
75.   trainwreck
70
You would think three, but even USC looks bad at this point.
2008-11-25 16:37:45
76.   bhsportsguy
74 I'm not saying make the deal but I watched Hu play several games this year and he wasn't close to being a major league hitter.
2008-11-25 16:39:06
77.   Tripon
75 I always wonder to myself at what would get Tim Floyd fired first, his fiascoes with recruits or his team's win/loss records.

Okay, I don't really but its odd that both Pac-10 football and basketball are down in the same year.

2008-11-25 16:42:19
78.   trainwreck
If you are going to have cruddy players play, you might as well go with the cheaper cruddy player.
2008-11-25 16:44:08
79.   ToyCannon
I'd rather resign Izzy then trade for Wilson.
Wilson is owed:
# 07:$5.25M, 08:$6.5M, 09:$7.25M, 10:$8.4M club option ($0.6M buyout)
Izzy is a free agent who made 2.85 million and had his 5.4 million option turned down. Not saying he's a great option, just saying he's a better option then trading for Jack Wilson or resigning Berroa.
Thing is, I'd like them to give Hu a shot but if he fails what do you do? Go right to DeJesus?
2008-11-25 16:45:09
80.   John Hale
77 I was hoping last year was a sign of things to come for pac-10 hoops but I think it will be a long time before we see that kind of talent spread across the entire league.
As for football I think the Pac-10 is what the ACC was when Florida St joined. Not even worth discussing as a league anymore.
2008-11-25 16:46:15
81.   Tripon
I would go to DeJesus. If he's would be ready by June, who can say he won't be ready in March/April? And its not as if Dodgers prospects needs to spend time in Triple-A to fine tune their skills. We have DeJesus, we should trust in his ability and talent unless we have a viable alternative, and players like Renteria, Cabera, and Jack Wilson aren't it.
2008-11-25 16:47:34
82.   fanerman
79 Izzy is a former all-star, scrappy, and while not having a stereotypical middle-infielder name, his name does say out loud "middle-infielder" (to me at least).
2008-11-25 16:49:27
83.   Tripon
We could always trade with the Angels for their Izzy, or Erick Aybar.

We'll give them Juan Pierre and call it a fair deal. We'll even throw in Andruw Jones to help their outfielders problem.

2008-11-25 16:50:00
84.   Eric Stephen
81
Whether or not the lineup can absorb the risk of starting Hu and/or DeJesus will depend on whether the man joining Kemp and Ethier in the OF has one or two nines on his jersey.
2008-11-25 16:50:12
85.   bigcpa
Izturis would be an nice 1 year option, but he might get a 2+ yrs from Detroit, Baltimore or Cincy. Ned probably likes Wilson's 2010 option as insurance in case DeJesus can't handle AAA.
2008-11-25 16:51:00
86.   trainwreck
84
I think our offense is screwed to be frank.
2008-11-25 16:51:19
87.   Eric Enders
Did DeJesus continue stinking up the joint in Arizona? The early reports were not good.
2008-11-25 16:53:29
88.   trainwreck
87
But he has gone off in Puerto Rician League.
2008-11-25 16:53:50
89.   trainwreck
*Puerto Rican League
2008-11-25 16:55:00
90.   regfairfield
I'm incredibly skeptical of guys who walk without power, so I'm really hesitant to want to see DeJesus get a job in 2009, especially since he strikes out a pretty good amount for a guy that doesn't drive the ball too much.
2008-11-25 16:56:58
91.   Tripon
90 http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=3726

But DeJesus walked 76 times in 463 at bats last year. That seems pretty good for me.

2008-11-25 16:58:38
92.   ToyCannon
85
I think that 8 million will scare him away.

81
Maybe we are okay at SS with Hu/DeJesus. I do know the Sept 07 Hu was not the April 2008 Hu and hopefully the correct Hu is more like Sept then April. It could be a moot point if Dejesus is ready in 2009. If you need to scimp, maybe this is where you do it.

2008-11-25 16:59:39
93.   Eric Enders
91 DeJesus's walk rates are good and always have been. I think what Andrew is saying is that since DeJesus has few offensive weapons with which to scare major league pitchers, he will probably not be walked as frequently in the big leagues.
2008-11-25 17:00:34
94.   ToyCannon
90
It sure looked like he increased his power in the 2nd half of the season but then it also looked like Hu had done the same the year before. Do the underlying peripherals say he's still strictly a singles hitter?
2008-11-25 17:01:03
95.   regfairfield
90 Right, and that doesn't mean a ton to me if he's not driving the ball. Once you adjust for parks, DeJesus' power production went down last year. He's certainly not hopeless there, but I'd like to see a bit of pop before calling him up.
2008-11-25 17:01:26
96.   ToyCannon
93
That is the old argument that we use Brett Butler to refute with.
2008-11-25 17:02:28
97.   Eric Enders
Eric Young is another one whose excellent minor league walk rates were expected to disappear in the majors, but didn't.
2008-11-25 17:04:03
98.   Tripon
93 Is walking a skill or a mistake by the pitcher then? I mean a lot of things go into getting a walk, the pitcher's strike zone, pitch selection, the batter's eye, the batter's own strike zone, the umpire's strike zone, etc.

Wonder if there's a way to measure 'tough walks'. Or is that just a silly extension of 'clutch hits'?

2008-11-25 17:06:46
99.   ToyCannon
If DeJesus is Luis Castillo without the stolen bases, is that a bad thing? I know you don't believe in just putting a guy out there because he's cheap but if my alternative is Jack Wilson or Orlando Cabrera I'm taking the home grown talent who is as good and costs nothing.

I just don't see any real viable alternatives available that I'm willing to trade for or spend money on as the SS position. We have two possible in house solutions.

2008-11-25 17:09:12
100.   trainwreck
What do we do with second base then?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-11-25 17:12:48
101.   trainwreck
It appears Lane Kiffin will be the next coach at Tennessee.
2008-11-25 17:12:49
102.   Tripon
Jeff Kent is still around right?

Hey, put your pitchforks away, that was a joke!

2008-11-25 17:13:02
103.   El Lay Dave
100 Etanislao Abreu!
2008-11-25 17:15:58
104.   ToyCannon
Ramon Vazquez against RHP would be a nice option as we search for his platoon mate.
2008-11-25 17:17:15
105.   ToyCannon
Maybe at some point next year we see an infield of Loney, Abreu, DeJesus, and DeWitt. Doesn't sound like a pennant winner but I wouldn't be crying foul if that happened.
2008-11-25 17:19:03
106.   trainwreck
I would be more than happy to go with some combination of Hu, DeJesus, and Abreu, but I do not see Ned wanting to.

Which is why it will be Cabrera to Durham.

2008-11-25 17:20:42
107.   oshea2002
101 - rumor from the other night had him bringing Ed Orgeron and Tim Davis with him, the Davis part won't happen since he just ended up at Minnesota. Kiffin and Orgeron will definitely win at Tennessee, and I will pull for them.
2008-11-25 17:22:04
108.   trainwreck
107
Washington should have offered him the job like a month ago.
2008-11-25 17:22:05
109.   Linkmeister
The first MLB night game was played on May 24th, 1935 at Crosley Field in Cincinnati.

Major social significance, and no redeeming baseball value at all.

PHI N 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 - 1 6
CIN N 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 x - 2 4

2008-11-25 17:22:09
110.   El Lay Dave
98 I vote skill. Even if the pitcher makes a mistake, the batter has to recognize it. Also, I'd guess that most batters that walk a lot probably foul off more "pitcher's pitches" that would be called strikes if taken, compared to batter that don't walk as much.
2008-11-25 17:22:34
111.   ToyCannon
Infielders with an OBP > 375 with a Slug% < 375 since 1980
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/SZ7h
2008-11-25 17:23:53
112.   Jon Weisman
109 - Calls to mind the Vander Meer game though.
2008-11-25 17:24:05
113.   Tripon
Whats the difference between Steve Sarkisian and Lane Kiffin?

Kiffin's getting rewarded for his one and half years as the Raiders coach, while nobody is trying to see if Sarkisian is available.

2008-11-25 17:26:29
114.   trainwreck
Lane lost to Texas in the national title game, while Sarkisian led offense loses to Oregon State.
2008-11-25 17:27:03
115.   trainwreck
Lane is also known for being a better recruiter.
2008-11-25 17:28:41
116.   oshea2002
113 - I look at it like staying in college too long before bolting to the NBA. Sark has lost a lot shine lately with the offensive struggles the past two year. Kiffin handled the Raiders situation pretty well, is a shrewd talent evaluator, and was SC's recruiting coordinator, so I think he's more equipped to run a program then Sark. That said, I still think Sark may get a shot at a New Mexico or something like that.

Dewayne Walker is apparently set for the SDSU job.

2008-11-25 17:29:25
117.   ToyCannon
I've always liked Durham, as a part time player he has his uses. Several of the available 2nd baseman hit right hand pitchers very well. Vazquez and Durham, the hard part is finding someone to hit the LHP. If only Nomar could play 2nd.
2008-11-25 17:29:29
118.   scareduck
30 - you would get no argument from me, being I was there at the time. It was simply the most spectacular regular season game I have ever attended live.
2008-11-25 17:31:10
119.   trainwreck
116
If Walker leaves UCLA than Ken Norton Jr will return home.
2008-11-25 17:31:17
120.   bhsportsguy
101 Next year's schedule has 8 home games, second game of the year is the rematch with UCLA but the following week they go to Florida. First two road games of the year, at Florida and at Alabama.
2008-11-25 17:34:38
121.   oshea2002
119 - yeah, I think Rick will look at him for sure. Great recruiter, probably not ready to be a DC though. Norton's beef was with Dorrell, not Rick or the school, so I'm sure he'd take it. He's fiercely loyal to Carroll, but he's have to take that job, it's an upgrade and it's at his alma mater. I'm sure Carroll would love to keep him, but that would require pushing Holt out, and that won't happen, unless he can package deal Holt and Sark somewhere else.
2008-11-25 17:36:44
122.   Ken Arneson
Best game I ever saw in person was the 2003 ALDS Game 1 between the Red Sox and A's. It had everything: a pitching duel between Tim Hudson and Pedro Martinez, a ninth inning comeback to tie the game, and a highly improbable ending in extra innings, a two-out walk-off bunt by the slowest player on the field, Ramon Hernandez.
2008-11-25 17:42:33
123.   Eric Enders
I know Jon said major league baseball, but I'm going to throw the famous 1930 game between the K.C. Monarchs and Homestead Grays into the mix. Chet Brewer, pitching for K.C., struck out 19 batters in 12 innings, but lost 1-0 to 43-year-old Hall of Famer Smoky Joe Williams, who allowed one hit and struck out 27.
2008-11-25 17:56:42
124.   Gen3Blue
My only expertise is with the Dodgers. But I think these games must be in the group considered.
A)The awful Thompson game
B)The 1956 World series victory
C)The '88 Gibson game
D)The 4+1
2008-11-25 17:59:07
125.   Gen3Blue
103 Yes. Especially with that marvelous first name.
2008-11-25 18:09:34
126.   bigcpa
Rosenthal:
The A's continued their aggressive courtship of Rafael Furcal on Tuesday, meeting in Oakland with the free-agent shortstop, his wife, Glenny, and his agent, Paul Kinzer, according to major-league sources. Furcal visited A's officials at the Oakland Coliseum, toured communities where he might live and had a two-hour lunch with A's general manager Billy Beane.

Buh bye!

2008-11-25 18:12:38
127.   trainwreck
Wow, Abrams of Texas almost pulled off a crazy ending.
2008-11-25 18:15:52
128.   das411
Has Bob already answered "The Merkle Game" on behalf of Cait Murphy?

Best game I've ever watched non-in-person was probably the 18 inning Astros/Braves playoff game in 2005...Clemens's last postseason appearance and first one in relief, the end of the Braves dynasty, and the unforgettable Chris Burke ending!

2008-11-25 18:17:56
129.   trainwreck
128
Totally forgot about that one. That was pretty crazy.
2008-11-25 18:18:13
130.   bablue
Question: Assuming we don't re-sign Furcal, why would it be bad to sign someone like Renteria to a 1-2 year deal? If it was the 2/18 deal rumored earlier, I think that would be pretty fair and not too risky. I'm a former Braves fan who loved what Renteria did in Atlanta so I'm kinda biased but I don't see why anything but the elite FA's are scoffed at.

It seems Renteria can't handle the AL for some reason, but I think he would be league average in LA. At this point I don't see how you can make Hu the opening day starter, he was so bad last year. And if one of Dejesus/Hu/Abreu steps up they can play second for a year or so.

Obviously I think it would be bad if we gave him 3/33 or a similar contract, or if the deal led to us dealing Hu/Dejesus for Pennies on the deal, but otherwise I don't see what's so bad about it. I'd much prefer it over trading for Wilson or signing Furcal at 4/52 at the very least.

Also, here's Dave Cameron's take on Renteria. He seems to think 2/18 is fair:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/renteria-to-sf/#comments

2008-11-25 18:19:25
131.   bablue
130,

*pennies on the dollar

2008-11-25 18:20:35
132.   bigcpa
More from Rumorthal:

The Pirates, who are discussing Wilson with several teams, wanted Dodgers shortstop Chin-Lung Hu, outfielder Delwyn Young and a third young player, sources say... The teams spoke as recently as Monday, according to one source, but currently are at an impasse.

2008-11-25 18:21:36
133.   trainwreck
130
It depends on scouting reports. I remember we all expected Andruw Jones to recover based on previous track record. But with the numbers, we could not see that his bat speed had dramatically decreased, which is why he became so bad and why I think he will continue to be bad.
2008-11-25 18:33:08
134.   trainwreck
Looks like the body snatchers left the Raiders and have taken over the Washington Huskies (basketball).
2008-11-25 18:39:37
135.   68elcamino427
Great thread!

Most important defensive positions on the field:

1. Catcher

2. Shortstop

3. Centerfield

Jus' say'in

2008-11-25 18:43:48
136.   popup
I am not sure if there is a baseball game that compares to the 58 Colts/Giants game. For long stretches of the 20th century baseball's only competition for national attention was college football and boxing. Baseball was on the sports map before there was anyone to really to create a sports map.

Stan from Tacoma

2008-11-25 19:01:38
137.   Tripon
This post on mlbtraderumors.com made me laugh out loud.

I am sick and tired of the venom everytime the Pirates try to do something. They are doing whatever it takes to right this ship. In the case of Jack Wilson there are six teams that want his services. These teams don't want to be stuck with a high-priced free agent for the next 4 years.

I prefer a package of DeJesus and McDonald for Wilson and a C prospect. Wilson will be traded in 2 weeks to the highest bidder. Some team will be desperate for his no-bat all-glove services. Until then go pick on someone your own size.

I'm sure you prefer DeJesus and McDonald. But... that's probably not happening.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/dodgers-conside.html#comments

2008-11-25 19:10:29
138.   Dodgers49
124 B)The 1956 World series victory

Which 1956 World Series victory was that?

2008-11-25 19:14:41
139.   Dodgers49
62 Does he have a stereotypical middle infielder name like Jack Wilson?

"So you're Jack Wilson."
"And what does that mean to you, Shane?" :-)

2008-11-25 19:15:54
140.   Ken Noe
Count me in for Game 6, 1975. I once wrote a paper about it as an undergrad. As for Jack Wilson, why? Why?
2008-11-25 19:24:47
141.   PDH5204
Jon, please define "great". Until then, I'm going with April 6, 1973, Yankees at Red Sox. First official game with the DH. Since then, the game has been played under two sets of rules. It doesn't get any "greater" than that.

For history's sake, Ron Blomberg went 1-3 with an RBI while Orlando Cepeda went 0-6.

Ron Blomberg's take:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/04/05/wwwred7dh5.html

2008-11-25 19:27:46
142.   bablue
137,
I just read that too. It took all my strength to keep me from busting out laughing in the middle of the library.

How about this: We prefer McClouth, Doumit, and McCutchen for Hu and Pierre. Pierre is gritty and fiery, and some teams are bidding for his services. After all, no one wants to be stuck with nobody in CF next year with the FA market so barren. Please leave Ned alone, I'm tired of the venom he receives. Its not as if he took a top 5 payroll team to mediocrity last year. If you want Pierre you have to pay up, until then go pick on someone Plaschke's size.

2008-11-25 19:28:39
143.   Marty
He's a low down, dirty Pirate.
2008-11-25 19:29:33
144.   Dodgers49
I got a kick out of this headline:

Indians Sign With Pirates, Open Flood Gates

http://tinyurl.com/6n4lbq

2008-11-25 19:35:16
145.   Dodgers49
143 Prove it. :-)
2008-11-25 19:37:55
146.   Marty
It's one of my all-time favorite scenes.
2008-11-25 19:39:34
147.   LAbits
What does FL want for Uggla? Is he on the market?
2008-11-25 19:39:59
148.   Marty
Actually, my favorite scene in that movie is when they are coming to tell Shane and Starrett that Stonewall has been killed. It's shot through the legs of the horses in the stable. And the horses are spooked. It makes for a wonderful shot.
2008-11-25 19:43:21
149.   Tripon
147 I would think the price for Uggla would be high and would start at DeJesus and McDonald or Elbert. Even if he's starting in his first year of arbitration, Florida isn't looking to trade him, at least for this year.
2008-11-25 19:49:07
150.   Tripon
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/spring_training/tickets.jsp?c_id=la

$125 bucks for a spring training game?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-11-25 19:49:23
151.   D4P
Andy Pettitte has spoken multiple times with his former manager, Joe Torre, about joining the Dodgers, sources told FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal. It was supposed to be Yankees or retirement for Pettitte, but now it seems like he wants to pitch and he's simply not among the Bombers' top priorities. That could put either the Dodgers or Astros into the mix.
2008-11-25 19:54:12
152.   Tripon
Garret Anderson should be able to play another four years, according to agent Scott Boras, who added that any team that signs the 36-year-old outfielder to a deal that long will get to see him collect his 3,000th career hit in its uniform.

"He's in the class of player where he gets a chance to get 3,000 hits like Tony Gwynn," Boras said. "This guy's four years away."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2008/11/boras-garret-an.html

2008-11-25 19:57:16
153.   fanerman
Scott Boras = no yey.
2008-11-25 20:03:58
154.   trainwreck
How does every GM not just start laughing on the phone when talking to him? Or just start making fun of him?
2008-11-25 20:18:10
155.   Andrew Shimmin
Avon Barksdale joined the SWAT team. Still, I think I'm just about done with House.
2008-11-25 20:23:01
156.   Cones88
I just rode a southwest plane from Oakland to Burbank with Rafael Furcal and his Wife/Girlfriend. Does this mean anything to anyone? He was in boarding group B. What does that say about his agent??
2008-11-25 20:24:47
157.   fanerman
156 Raffy was in Oakland today being wooed by the A's. Someone mentioned it already. Something about Billy showing Raffy places he could possibly live.
2008-11-25 20:26:53
158.   Andrew Shimmin
156- Fourteen more flights and he'll get a free upgrade.
2008-11-25 20:29:15
159.   trainwreck
Billy would be smart to make sure Furcal saw as little of the Oakland Coliseum as possible.
2008-11-25 20:33:21
160.   Tripon
I think Boras is arguing that Garrent Anderson is a hall of famer, which he would be if he gets 3000 hits? But... which team is crazy enough to give him that many at bats to get to 3000?
2008-11-25 20:35:49
161.   Tripon
NY politicians say Mets should call new park Citi/Taxpayer Field

NEW YORK—Two New York City Council members say that Citigroup should show its thanks for a federal bailout by sharing the naming rights to the new Mets ballpark in Queens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3726892

2008-11-25 20:36:14
162.   68elcamino427
156
That is hilarious - and pathetic at the same time :)
2008-11-25 20:45:49
163.   Gen3Blue
138 Make that 1955. The memory gets fuzzy.
2008-11-25 20:48:56
164.   Duranimal
Please oh please, don't let us sign Petitte. I hate the way he peers over his glove as he gets the signal from the catcher. He looks like a pedophile.
2008-11-25 20:52:40
165.   Gen3Blue
I'm sorry, but I can only see many baseball players and money as hilarious, esp. those with Boras, ala Furcal and Manny. Of course these guys deserve their payday. But I just have to realize how young they are, and unknowing in the ways of the world.
2008-11-25 20:54:37
166.   Gen3Blue
Or maybe not Furcal. Doesn't matter.
2008-11-25 20:54:44
167.   Dodgers49
148 Actually, the horses being spooked in the stable was during the fight scene. During the scene you mentioned they're just standing there. You're probably running the two scenes together due to not having watched the movie for a while. The same thing happened to me. I'm a huge Shane fan. I watched it the first time in a movie theatre in 1953 when I was 13 years old. I didn't see it again until 40 years later on cable only to discover that a couple of scenes weren't quite as I remembered them. :-) I've watched it more than a dozen times since on video.
2008-11-25 20:55:49
168.   68elcamino427
165
Could one road trip with the groupie leftovers possibly cause you revise your opinion?
2008-11-25 20:56:45
169.   JRSarno
What's the general tenor in here re: potentially losing Furcal? Understanding his recent health concerns, I'm still rather surprised that we're not pushing a bit harder to resign him...
2008-11-25 21:01:07
170.   68elcamino427
169
I can only speak for me - Bye Bye Raffy - we hardly knew ye :)
2008-11-25 21:01:17
171.   das411
Jon, can we vote for a game that hasn't happened yet...the one that will come this September when Rickey becomes the first player to take the field having already been inducted in the Hall of Fame?

/perusing Mets and/or Athletics schedules to see exactly when this might happen...

2008-11-25 21:01:22
172.   trainwreck
169
I think it has been obvious for awhile that we weren't, so then you just get used to it.
2008-11-25 21:04:23
173.   Dodgers49
157 in 1953 when I was 13 years old.

Also, in my old age I don't count so good. :-)
I as actually 16 years old.

2008-11-25 21:04:57
174.   Gen3Blue
165 Of course--sign me up!
2008-11-25 21:05:44
175.   oshea2002
169 - I originally figured they'd re-sign Manny, and no other signings of real consequence other then bodies, so I never thought he was coming back.
2008-11-25 21:07:20
176.   Eric Stephen
I like the Antoine Carr hunting glasses on Radmanovic.
2008-11-25 21:07:49
177.   LogikReader
Welcome to another edition of...

The Lakers Are Soft on Defense&trade

Tonight's Guest: The New Jersey Nets.

This is just pathetic. You see the Celtics putting away teams left and right while these Lakers struggle to beat Jersey and Sacramento.

2008-11-25 21:11:04
178.   Dodgers49
173 as = was. Not having a
good night. :-)
2008-11-25 21:11:26
179.   68elcamino427
177
Starring the slow feet of the "Radman".
2008-11-25 21:15:20
180.   Eric Stephen
177
Pathetic is a little strong. I would certainly like to see them play better than the last few games, but they have all been wins outside of the Detroit game. They still haven't had a win by fewer than 7 points.
2008-11-25 21:16:15
181.   Tripon
Is Vlad Rad still starting?
2008-11-25 21:20:23
182.   Gen3Blue
I'm afraid with the current downturn our drunken spending spree like the New York teams may have ended. For 39 mil, we only got one decent year out of Furcal. Of course, it looks like he can be awesome if healthy. We also spent almost 100 mil on Jones and Schmidt. Unfortunately, the only expensive free agent who stayed healthy was JP. Thats luck--or fate. I seem to remember we had bad karma at the beginning of the FA agent era with guys named Stanhouse? and Goltz? Maybe we should work on the farm.
2008-11-25 21:29:34
183.   68elcamino427
182
In 2016 maybe the "Dodger Network" will have been been on stream for 24 months?
2008-11-25 21:34:52
184.   Eric Stephen
One of the Nets players appears to have received a technical foul for standing up and distracting/yelling something at The Machine® as he made a 3 from the corner.
2008-11-25 21:36:16
185.   Eric Stephen
I stand corrected. No technical foul was called, much to the dismay of one Stuart Lantz.
2008-11-25 21:38:15
186.   Sagehen
September 9, 1965. Koufax's 4th no-hitter and perfect game, and poor Bob Hendley loses a perfect game.
2008-11-25 21:39:04
187.   eusmus
177 Huh? The Lakers have the best point differential in the NBA, 6 points better than the Celtics.
2008-11-25 21:39:27
188.   LogikReader
185

I once coined a term known as "Laker-itis" which goes back to the Shaq era. Basically, its the action of turning a switch on and off to up the intensity.

Right after I wrote 177 the Lakers really turned on the jets. Suddenly, they're up by 20 points.

Eric is right... even with their struggles, they haven't been taken to the wire in the last six games. I can take comfort in that.

2008-11-25 21:39:39
189.   StolenMonkey86
156 - It says he's serious about joining the A's?
2008-11-25 21:40:32
190.   KG16
177 - they're up by 17 with 10:32 to go in the game, Jersey has now 78 points as somebody hits a couple of free throws. That's not that bad, considering that scoring has been up a bit lately.

I'm on the other side of the equation, this might be the best Lakers team I've seen. The '88 team probably still has that title for me, with the '01 team a distant second, but if these guys stay on the pace they're on, they'll challenge the '88 team (and yes, I know, one of the other teams might even be better).

Also, now that I've finished this comment, the Lakers are up by 25

2008-11-25 21:41:01
191.   Eric Stephen
188
Clearly you provided the inspiration! :)
2008-11-25 21:41:16
192.   LogikReader
177 187

105-78! Holy cow, do I stand corrected!

2008-11-25 21:41:50
193.   Sagehen
186 Oops. I mean Hendley loses a one-hitter.
2008-11-25 21:42:40
194.   68elcamino427
189
Furcal's agent is thrifty?

Raffy's paying for it either way - no?

2008-11-25 21:43:08
195.   oshea2002
The Lakers are so explosive, they can almost afford to play down to inferior opponents. Boston has actually had similar struggles this year too.
2008-11-25 21:44:04
196.   Eric Stephen
190
The 1987 team was awesome, mostly because Kareem didn't have both hands gripping the edge of the cliff.

No Laker team in my lifetime had as impressive a run as the 2001 team, which was an OT loss (AI) away from sweeping through the postseason. They reached a gear during that run that I'd like to think was reached by the 1972 club that I never saw play.

2008-11-25 21:44:14
197.   68elcamino427
Jackson - the Great Yoda - knows all ...
2008-11-25 21:45:58
198.   KG16
196 - actually, I may have been thinking of the 87 team, but those two teams were basically the same.
2008-11-25 21:46:40
199.   Eric Stephen
My brother likes to tell a story about the 1972 Laker team, that during one game some opponent had a clear path breakaway layup. As he went up for the easy two, with seemingly no one around, out of nowhere came a sprinting Wilt Chamberlain to block his shot.

The Lakers were up 25 at the time.

I have no idea if this story is true, but I still love it.

2008-11-25 21:46:44
200.   KG16
and yes, the '01 team in the playoffs was simply incredible.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-11-25 21:50:55
201.   StolenMonkey86
194 - He wants to fit in.
2008-11-25 21:54:54
202.   bhsportsguy
The 1982 Lakers were probably the fastest of the Showtime era, when they had the lineup of Magic, Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper, Jamaal Wilkes and Bob McAdoo, they would just fly down the court.

Certainly Kobe has had some strange games in his career when you questioned his actions but I will always believe that no team ever quit like the 2001 Spurs did in their 4-0 series loss to the Lakers.

2008-11-25 22:10:07
203.   Eric Stephen
I have a lot of obscure yet very specific stats in my head (for instance, Eddie Murray had 184 hits in 558 AB, for a .3297 average in 1990, the highest in MLB), but one of the most obscure stats burned into my memory is that Derek Fisher made 35 of 68 threes during the 2001 playoffs.
2008-11-25 22:13:58
204.   fanerman
203 2 years later in the 2003 playoffs, Fish made 29 out of 47 threes.
2008-11-25 22:23:42
205.   Eric Stephen
At the end of the 2001 season, the Lakers won their last 8 regular season games.

They won their first 11 games of the playoffs, sweeping into the Finals with a 19-game winning streak.

After the OT loss to the 76ers in Game 1, they won the next 4 games to clinch the title.

To start the 2001-2002 season, the Lakers won 7 straight. They then followed a single loss (at Phoenix) with 9 more wins, and a 16-1 start (best in club history, until this year...?).

So, over a 41 game stretch the Lakers went 39-2.

2008-11-25 22:30:45
206.   Icaros
Wasn't there a season during the Three-Peat era where the Lakers lost to the last place team of every division, or something like that?
2008-11-25 22:35:50
207.   Tripon
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4325

Meanwhile, Marc Gasol is averaging 12 points a game. Who knew!?

2008-11-25 22:36:57
208.   Jon Weisman
NPUT
2008-11-25 22:40:16
209.   trainwreck
I remember when the Bills had their 72 win season they lost to the expansion Raptors twice.

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