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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Off-the-Cuff Revelation: Schmidt Had Different Injury When Dodgers Signed Him
2008-12-10 06:24
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Bill Shaikin of the Times read the Dodgers' Jason Schmidt insurance lawsuit and found that the team admitted it knew Schmidt had a rotator cuff injury at the time he signed his three-year, $47 million deal.

In the suit, filed Monday in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, the Dodgers argue the torn labrum that required surgery and limited Schmidt to six games over two years was unrelated to the rotator cuff injury and thus covered by insurance.

Dodgers spokesman Josh Rawitch said Tuesday the team could not comment on a pending legal matter. ...

It is believed the Schmidt physical included an MRI examination that confirmed the rotator cuff injury. In the suit, the Dodgers claim such injuries are not uncommon and said they awarded him the contract based on his success with the Giants.

"Major league pitchers often experience such partial rotator cuff tears but nevertheless remain competitive and effective," the suit reads, "as Mr. Schmidt had demonstrated himself to be during the 2006 season immediately prior to joining the Dodgers.

"The Dodgers therefore did not find Mr. Schmidt's preexisting rotator cuff condition to exclude him from consideration as a team member." ...

In other news:

  • Diamond Leung of the Press-Enterprise expands on these notes:

    --If the Dodgers decide to give up on Andruw Jones, they might be able to trade him and only have to pay, say, $22 million of the $22.1 million they owe him.

    --Tony Abreu is making progress but remains more or less in recovery mode.

    --Ramon Troncoso is working on a curveball while working as a starter, but still is more likely to remain in the bullpen. And I still have to wonder if the Dodgers will think twice about this.

  • Ex-Dodger and Hall of Fame Oriole Eddie Murray is pursuing a position in the Baltimore front office, writes Roch Kubatko at MASN.

  • Nothing like In 'N Out home (or hotel) delivery, as Big League Stew illustrates. But remember - don't debate the fries.

  • Various unsourced reports this morning have CC Sabathia bowing his head, kicking the dirt with his feet and succumbing to the Yankees' $140 million, six-year contract offer (which might or might not have gotten a booster shot). We'll see if/when we get confirmation.

  • Comments (482)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-12-10 06:44:53
    1.   DBrim
    LAT'd

    I wonder if that 7th year is an option? It seems a bit weird that the Yankees would increase the length when they already offered longer than anybody else.

    2008-12-10 06:51:01
    2.   silverwidow
    The Yanks are getting Sabathia AND Lowe, apparently.

    This is horrible news - we get, at best, a 2nd rounder for Lowe?

    2008-12-10 06:53:32
    3.   Eric Stephen
    2
    Man, I hope the Yankees don't sign Tex too.
    2008-12-10 06:58:12
    4.   MC Safety
    I'm so tired of the best players going to New York or Boston.
    2008-12-10 07:00:28
    5.   Eric Stephen
    Someone won $1 million from ESPN for correctly picking 25 different games in a row (a few different sports). The final game was Pittsburgh's comeback win over the Cowboys Sunday.
    2008-12-10 07:01:35
    6.   JoeyP
    For Ned to sign Schmidt knowing he had a rotator cuff injury, at his age, is a fireable offense (amongst others...Pierre, Druw, etc).
    2008-12-10 07:01:41
    7.   MC Safety
    0 Color me unsurprised.
    2008-12-10 07:05:07
    8.   DBrim
    As much as I hate myself for saying this, I think it's about time for baseball to look into a salary cap of some sort.
    2008-12-10 07:12:15
    9.   MC Safety
    6 For Ned to sign Schmidt knowing he had a rotator cuff injury, at his age, is a fireable offense (amongst others...Pierre, Druw, etc).

    What a phony. And then to top it off, he lied to the press saying that Schmidt checked out fine with our team doctors when they looked at him. Complete bollocks.

    2008-12-10 07:14:12
    10.   Ken Noe
    I just read the Schmidt story and my jaw dropped. Ned gave $47 million to a pitcher with a torn rotator cuff? Unbelievable.
    2008-12-10 07:16:01
    11.   Ken Noe
    11 No, almost criminal. Criminal incompetence.
    2008-12-10 07:30:00
    12.   Disabled List
    2 The Yanks are getting Sabathia AND Lowe, apparently.

    ...and they're still demanding another $150 million from New York City taxpayers to finish building their royal palace.

    2008-12-10 07:36:56
    13.   scareduck
    If this doesn't settle the question of whether Ned is an idiot, I don't know what will.
    2008-12-10 07:47:31
    14.   bluegold
    But of course, if Ned were NOT an idiot, he would not be part of the McCourt organization.
    2008-12-10 07:47:44
    15.   D4P
    13
    To be fair, I don't think we ever completely ruled out the Sabean double agent scenario, a fire to which this Schmidt news adds fuel.
    2008-12-10 07:49:24
    16.   bluegold
    My dream of a CC/Manny Dodgers combo just got a jolt of reality. I have a feeling it will wind up to be a zilch/zilch combo when it's all over.
    2008-12-10 07:53:32
    17.   Xeifrank
    Without signing Sabathia, the Dodgers will struggle to build a team capable of winning 85+ games without the help of a breakout year from someone or some creative team building for which the current GM has shown no signs of skill for doing so.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 08:03:29
    18.   DBrim
    9:59am: Jon Heyman talked to people close to Hank Steinbrenner who say he wants Manny. Heyman says the Yanks are mulling a run at the slugger.

    Uh oh.

    2008-12-10 08:05:38
    19.   natepurcell
    i want to see them spend 300mil this offseason!
    2008-12-10 08:07:24
    20.   Kevin Lewis
    I am pretty annoyed by this news. I understand that pitchers can pitch through minor pain, but to know about the rotator cuff and to spend that kind of money is just beyond me. This was the same off season we picked up Pierre, correct?
    2008-12-10 08:12:19
    21.   Disabled List
    So the Yankees are gonna run off with CC, Lowe and Manny. It seemed like just yesterday I had visions of all three of those guys in Dodger uniforms in 2009.

    Oh well. Maybe Ned can find another pitcher with a ruined arm or an overweight outfielder with a dead swing.

    2008-12-10 08:13:17
    22.   Ken Noe
    21 Yes, and remember, Ned gave him five years to top Sabean's offer of four. It all comes back to the Giants again. What we might have done this year if not still--still--hamstrung by those two deals. Sabean may be a genius after all.
    2008-12-10 08:13:35
    23.   Kevin Lewis
    At the time the Dodgers entered into the policy with ACE," the suit reads, "both the Dodgers and ACE were aware that Mr. Schmidt had for some time during his career with the San Francisco Giants been suffering from a partial tear of the rotator cuff in his right [pitching] shoulder."

    Wow.

    2008-12-10 08:13:59
    24.   old dodger fan
    The Dodgers therefore did not find Mr. Schmidt's preexisting rotator cuff condition to exclude him from consideration as a team member.

    I wonder who the "Dodgers" are? More specifically, I wonder if McCourt knew.

    2008-12-10 08:14:01
    25.   Kevin Lewis
    Sorry, citing the linked story in the times
    2008-12-10 08:14:15
    26.   Ken Noe
    22 I mean 20
    2008-12-10 08:16:37
    27.   DBrim
    The fact that we didn't even try for Sabathia upsets me. A lot. Given the amount of time he took, if we made a moderate offer (6/120 or so), we would have had a very good chance.

    I think we have to go after Randy Johnson now.

    2008-12-10 08:21:14
    28.   cargill06
    17 I don't think that's accurate.
    2008-12-10 08:21:25
    29.   MC Safety
    27 You mean Ben Sheets?
    2008-12-10 08:22:10
    30.   cargill06
    Memo to Ned, Rotator Cuff is in the shoulder. Shoulder's are important to a pitcher, espically if it's in his pitching arm.
    2008-12-10 08:22:11
    31.   MC Safety
    28 Are you going to post why you don't think that's accurate?
    2008-12-10 08:22:52
    32.   DBrim
    29 - That's probably who Ned will end up signing.
    2008-12-10 08:24:45
    33.   oshea2002
    I can't think of a worse scenario then all of our Type A's going to NYY after they sign CC.
    2008-12-10 08:25:53
    34.   Kevin Lewis
    I would be happy with Lowe or Sheets at this point, but we need to go after Manny.

    I felt better when I used to think that Ned didn't see the warning signs with Jason and took the calculated risk, but now I don't know what to think.

    It's possible that Frank and Jamie are so disenchanted with the signings they have allowed that they want to shed some payroll, reassess and then make a go for it when Ned is gone.

    2008-12-10 08:25:55
    35.   old dodger fan
    So if Ben Sheets passes our physical what exactly does that mean?
    2008-12-10 08:26:36
    36.   Ken Noe
    34 Going to an NL team where we have to see them regularly.
    2008-12-10 08:26:52
    37.   Johnny Nucleo
    My jaw dropped when I read this too.

    The hand I used to re-close my jaw is now supporting my forehead, because if I don't do that, I think I will start banging it against a wall.

    2008-12-10 08:29:31
    38.   Jon Weisman
    27 - You really think Sabathia would have left $40 million on the table? Maybe, but I don't know ...

    And let's hold off before we assume that the Yankees will end up with all of CC, Lowe and Manny.

    2008-12-10 08:30:06
    39.   cargill06
    31 Marcel's thinks the team constructed as is will post a OPS better than last years team. The starting pitching we're losing (Penny, Lowe, Maddux) posted a 4.29 ERA last year. We should be able to replace that.
    2008-12-10 08:30:33
    40.   Disabled List
    I think only Rod Blagojevich is having a worse day than Ned Colletti.
    2008-12-10 08:30:46
    41.   cargill06
    31 Oh, and our Pythag record last year was 87-75.
    2008-12-10 08:31:08
    42.   kinbote
    You guys are missing the big picture here: Toaster Ovens are now 50% off!
    2008-12-10 08:32:21
    43.   underdog
    7 years 160+ million...Ay caramba. Even with his west coast preference there's no way the Dodgers (and certainly not the Giants) could have come close to that. It would've been nice to have made an offer, though.

    But that offer would've been so far away from that, if he'd even considered it the damned players union probably would've talked to him.

    On the other hand, after this next season, even more money comes off the books for the Dodgers, so it seems like they could've tried.

    On the other hand... {{head explode}}

    At least we have Jason Schmidt next year -- the 09 Comeback Player of the Year!

    {{remains of head explode for good measure}}

    2008-12-10 08:32:27
    44.   MC Safety
    39 Are you counting Furcal?
    2008-12-10 08:32:45
    45.   Ken Noe
    I wonder about the timing of this admission. They filed Monday. At the beginning of the meetings, it sure makes Ned look like a goofus. Any other time, I'd think it was the ground being laid for a change. Or does McCourt suddenly just need the money?
    2008-12-10 08:34:13
    46.   cargill06
    44 No, that's with Hu and Berroa playing SS.
    2008-12-10 08:34:53
    47.   DBrim
    38 - At that point it was only 20. In a location that he wanted to play in, so it was possible. Or at least worth the effort.

    All in all I'm not as upset that he's going to be a Yankee as much as I'm upset about our (apparent) apathy.

    2008-12-10 08:36:40
    48.   Ken Noe
    I see the Twins have entered the Peavy matrix. Next, the Expos.
    2008-12-10 08:37:23
    49.   CajunDodger
    31
    I tend to agree with that post because:

    Until yesterday, I never really considered CC a real possibility.

    I think there are plenty of ways to ensure that our club can win or even dominate the West. Whether Colletti is savvy enough to do those things is another discussion...

    I really can't see New York getting serious about Manny.

    I like Bills as our ace. I know that his leg is broken, but I think he can go toe-to-toe with anyone in our division. What we really need is a good number 2-3 guy. Sheets or Oliver Perez could fill this role IMO.

    2008-12-10 08:41:44
    50.   DBrim
    49 - Is the goal to win the west, or is it to field a team that will be competitive during the playoffs? These are two entirely different approaches, especially given the current state of the division.
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-12-10 08:43:48
    51.   underdog
    Bright side: He's not going to the Giants.

    More optimism: I don't see Lowe and Manny going to the Yankees, certainly not both of them.

    --

    I like Ben Sheets but after the Schmidt stupidity would assume the Dodgers are now shying away from the injury-prone. Sheets has higher potential than Schmidt though. All I know is they need another top pitcher to add to their staff. Just one.

    2008-12-10 08:44:08
    52.   cargill06
    50 The playoffs are largely a crapshoot. Get in and every team is competetive.
    2008-12-10 08:45:00
    53.   Terry A
    This would be maddening if we didn't already suspect McCourt's most valued trait in a GM is the ability to schmooze at company parties.
    2008-12-10 08:46:11
    54.   Ken Noe
    The deal has an opt-out clause after the first three years, which are worth $69MM. The 31 year-old Sabathia will make his opt-out decision after the 2011 season with four years, $92MM remaining on the deal. He would have to buck the opt-out trend (or renegotiate) to make this more than a three-year, $69MM deal for the Yankees.

    http://tinyurl.com/6ogntd

    2008-12-10 08:48:18
    55.   underdog
    54 - Lord... couldn't the Dodgers have done that then? The ol' opt-out escape hatch... Sigh.
    2008-12-10 08:51:07
    56.   Big Game
    45 Just a guess, but could it be that Schmidt's career is over? Why file a suit now, if he's on track to be able to pitch this season?
    2008-12-10 08:52:18
    57.   kinbote
    I keep thinking of the famous boat scene from "The Sopranos": "Hey, [Schmidtty]--Did you[r Dodger career] even really exist?"
    2008-12-10 08:54:24
    58.   D4P
    In Plaschke's forthcoming diatribe against the Dodgers for letting CC slip out of their grasp (which he was never actually in), I wonder if he'll also blast Cashman for including the Google Boy opt-out clause.
    2008-12-10 08:54:30
    59.   MC Safety
    I hope Tommy recruits Sheets for us.
    2008-12-10 09:02:03
    60.   CajunDodger
    50
    I think the goal should be to win as many games as possible while trying to match up with your division (since that is the only sure way in to the playoffs).

    All of our best players are still 26 or under. We have plenty of money to spend (even assuming a reduced payroll) and there are still a lot of good players out there. If the season started today with no more additions, I still think we win 80 games. If we can add a decent SP, that could get us to 85-86. Manny or another big bat would get us to 88-92.

    All strictly opinion, but I worry less about losing CC than I do about losing out on one of the remaining SP.

    2008-12-10 09:06:23
    61.   underdog
    More from ol' Milwaukee paper, via MLBTR:

    >>For the first time, Brewers GM Doug Melvin confirmed he offered five years and slightly more than $100MM to Sabathia. Adding a sixth year was under serious consideration. Tom Haudricourt also learned from Melvin that Sabathia wanted an opt-out clause no matter where he signed, and the Brewers were prepared to offer one.<<

    ---

    I guess we can say the Dodgers managed a quick coffee date with CC but only during the day and in a hotel lobby. SF only exchanged a few emails after looking at CC's profile on the web. Milwaukee was further along, went out with CC a few times, knowing there was another suitor at the same time who had more money. Still, poor Brewers got his hopes up and feels pretty heartbroken.

    2008-12-10 09:11:18
    62.   cargill06
    The Dodgers are not doing a Matt Kemp-Robinson Cano deal. "We're not trading any of our young guys," Ned Colletti says.
    2008-12-10 09:12:19
    63.   ToyCannon
    Cesear gets a starting gig in Baltimore reducing Furcal's options even further. Hard to believe little Cesear is now 28.

    As far has Schmidt goes everyone in the Dodger organization signed off on that deal from McCourt to the medical staff. It would seem they were all culpable in this decision. I would like them to give us some examples of pitchers who pitched well with a partially torn rotator cuff that didn't eventually tear it completely since they state this is a common occurrence.

    2008-12-10 09:15:47
    64.   68elcamino427
    61
    That is Hilarious! Well Done.
    2008-12-10 09:18:45
    65.   Big Game
    63 Jimmy Key comes to mind as a guy who was able to recover from it. Roger Clemens came back from it as well, but he had a little help from his friends.
    2008-12-10 09:20:41
    66.   Hollywood Joe
    Never get into an negotiation you don't think you can win

    I am glad the Dodgers didnt wave some "west coast discount" offer at CC. If you aren't going to beat the Yankees initial offer and be ready for their counter offer then don't even get into the water.

    Why is it so important to us if it appears, in the media (because what do any of us really know), that the Dodgers tried to get CC - the only important thing in the end wouldn't have been the attempt but rather the result. I care little about what the Dodgers (or my employees) try to do and everything about what they get done. I think the Dodgers would have looked pathetic if they offered him less than the Yankees and ultimately would not have been successful paying him one cent less. I would not have wanted the Dodgers to sign him to the Yankee deal.

    I think Hank believed in the much publicized west coast preference (which was either real or a clever ruse by CCs agent to get the best of all possible deals) so he bid early and large with in an east coast premium built in; once Hank dropped that first bomb CC was NYC bound (even if he didnt want to go there the MLBPA would not have let him walk)

    ...and I wish nothting but ill on the Yankees. I hope the wall street economic plague results in empty seats, I hope freak injuries result in wasted dollars, I hope that they kill their own golden goose by finally making the rest of baseball rise up and demand a cap.

    2008-12-10 09:21:08
    67.   Kevin Lewis
    Okay, so to be proactive and positive...

    what if we sign Burrell, Furcal, and Lowe...

    that could still be cheaper than Manny and a pitcher, correct?

    2008-12-10 09:24:17
    68.   68elcamino427
    63
    Wow - Let's see ... this is a common occrance.
    Ummm - Who are the people they will cite?
    Are there more than five such affirming examples in the last 40 years?
    Bet there are a few from the 1960's - especially pre Kerlan-Jobe.
    Did they even talk about rotator cuffs and labrums pre Kerlan-Jobe?
    2008-12-10 09:26:43
    69.   68elcamino427
    66
    great post
    2008-12-10 09:28:50
    70.   Louis in SF
    The Schmidt story is absolutely appalling. If my memory is correct when it was discovered that Shawn Green had played almost a full year with a torn labrum, it was universally agreed that was the reason for his lower power numbers, but it was also said at the time that a pitcher would even have more problems. What were the Dodgers thinking? If he pitched more was he going to get better?

    61
    Going with the coffee-date analogy on CC, where are with Manny? I would say we had the coffee date, and because the girl was so hot you paid for the meal, but you have called all your friends and you are still wondering when the next date will be.

    2008-12-10 09:29:27
    71.   68elcamino427
    Who are the Kurada Sans?
    Two frontline pitchers.
    Furcal
    Manny
    Would that that would work if Furcal could stay healthy?
    2008-12-10 09:31:37
    72.   tjdub
    I thought I would be more upset when the Dodgers inevitably lost out on CC. The more I think of it however, the more I recognize that I just have an emotional attachment to a specific idea. Whenever I see that Webb is pitching for AZ or Lincecum is pitching for SF, I presume a win. As good as Bills is already and as great as he can become, I don't feel that way. I wanted to have someone like that join the Dodgers. This is faulty thinking on my part. The staff with one or two additions, can be plenty formidable as a whole. I'm now on the Manny (2-3 yrs max), Furcal (3yrs. max), Randy Johnson (or some other stop-gap) trifecta bandwagon. I would prefer we stay as far away from Ben Sheets as possible, as the current situation with Schmidt illustrates.
    2008-12-10 09:32:30
    73.   Eric Stephen
    70
    That is the basis for the lawsuit against the insurance company. We are dealing with two things here:

    1) Dodgers knew Schmidt had a partially torn rotator cuff before he was signed. I agree, knowing that his contract was appalling.

    2) Schmidt's torn labrum is a separate injury, and it's up to the courts to decide the level which the two injuries (rotator cuff & labrun) are related.

    2008-12-10 09:32:32
    74.   ToyCannon
    68
    We have no idea how many pitchers are pitching right now with partially torn rotator cuffs. Maybe it is common maybe it isn't. It is not something that would be common knowledge because other then in Schmidts case it would probably effect their leverage.

    TJ just did a story on how they couldn't acknowledge a deal until the physical is done because they could be sued if they didn't pass the physical and word got out that they they didn't sign someone because they did not pass the physical.
    "On a separate note, we now know why the Dodgers are so hesitant to talk about their deals with free agents Mark Loretta and Casey Blake. Turns out that when a deal is in place pending that player passing a physical -- something we know is true in the case of Loretta and that we suspect is the case with Blake -- if that information gets out in the open, there is a concern that if the player fails the physical and the deal never gets consummated, then it becomes obvious to other clubs that the player failed the physical and in theory hinders that player's ability to get a deal with another club. That player can then file a grievance or perhaps even a lawsuit against the first club for allowing the information to get out. In other words, a player can sue one team for hindering his ability to deceive another team about his physical condition. What a world we live in."

    2008-12-10 09:39:30
    75.   unlazy4sports
    Per Rotoworld:

    Multiple baseball executives at the winter meetings in Las Vegas believe the Pirates' asking price for players like Jack Wilson, Freddy Sanchez or Adam LaRoche is far too high.

    "Their demands aren't as bad as when (Dave) Littlefield was the GM but they are not going to get three good prospects for Wilson or Sanchez or LaRoche," one National League executive said. "Those guys just aren't that good... They're complementary players on a good team." A comparison to Littlefield is just plain rude, but current GM Neal Huntington has come across as a bit naive this week.

    2008-12-10 09:44:35
    76.   Ken Noe
    FWIW, Olney said this morning that Manny has no other real suitors, and that all of the big corner outfielders can be had more cheaply than they ever imagined. Hank may just be pulling Torre's chain.
    2008-12-10 09:45:37
    77.   underdog
    The Pirates need to take what they can get for those guys to help replenish their farm system and start over. Getting a few decent prospects for them should be all they expect.
    2008-12-10 09:48:52
    78.   68elcamino427
    74
    Great post - thanks.
    57
    Hey -- Schimidtty did your career even really exist? comes to mind.
    2008-12-10 09:50:15
    79.   Disabled List
    70 Going with the coffee-date analogy on CC, where are with Manny? I would say we had the coffee date, and because the girl was so hot you paid for the meal, but you have called all your friends and you are still wondering when the next date will be.

    Not even close. The Dodgers and Manny already had a drunken hook-up and a passionate fling. But now Manny wants to settle down and get serious, while the Dodgers are afraid of commitment.

    2008-12-10 09:51:04
    80.   Xeifrank
    39. Care to show us your work? Also, how are converting ERA into wins? I've never seen ERA converted to wins. FIP ERA yes, ERA no.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 09:51:59
    81.   bferb
    Perhaps our parting ways with Brad Penny is a result of some rotator cuff situation similar to Schmidt and the Dodgers dont want to go down that road again.

    Also, it was initially reported right after the World Series that Yankees were planning to offer CC a contract that would dwarf all other teams offers - which is exactly what they did, so they would land him without a doubt. It never seemed plausible the Dodgers would compete. I feel like we will somehow still get Furcal, maybe Manny. If we can land those two plus maybe an Oliver Perez type guy, I think we can still be in decent shape.

    I also liked the idea someone on here wrote of possibly doing a bad contract swap of Jones or Pierre for Millwood or Padilla

    2008-12-10 09:53:45
    82.   Patagent
    If the insurance company did in fact know of Schmidt's rotator cuff injury and still chose to insure him, then perhaps the risks were minimal at the time of the signing.
    2008-12-10 09:54:04
    83.   ishXdavid
    I don't follow the prospects of other organizations, but is there anyone on the radar that we can acquire with some creativity? CC is a big fish, and I'm disappointed that we were never in the running, but the freaking RAYS won the AL East and got to the World Series with pitchers they developed and creatively acquired. I'm still unnerved that the Dodgers haven't settled on an identity of the club.
    2008-12-10 09:55:19
    84.   ToyCannon
    We've got a quick poll going on over at true blue to figure out which pitcher would be best to fill out our rotation.
    http://www.truebluela.com/2008/12/9/688231/winter-meeting-day-three
    2008-12-10 09:56:26
    85.   GMac In The 909
    I came here to say this: 20

    Oh, and this: "You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."

    2008-12-10 10:01:40
    86.   scareduck
    73 - except that shoulder labrums and rotator cuffs often fail in tandem, and an injury to one can lead to the other failing (this is also true of elbows). There is simply no way that this should be a surprise.
    2008-12-10 10:02:25
    87.   ToyCannon
    83
    The Rays are where they are because of great trades and finally getting some good value being the worse team in the league year after year. Players like Upton, Longoria, Price, and Crawford only fall to teams who are dreadful year after year.
    2008-12-10 10:03:55
    88.   Kevin Lewis
    Could we afford Manny, Furcal, and Johnson?
    2008-12-10 10:04:11
    89.   OhioBlues12
    Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports the Mets have shown interest in Dodgers outfielder Juan Pierre.

    The Dodgers put Pierre on the market back in October and are just now getting their first inquiry. To get a deal done, they'd likely have to eat a large portion of his remaining contract. He's owed $28.5 million over the next three years. Pierre may be a cheaper option than Raul Ibanez or a couple of other free agents, but he hit just .158 last season.

    - rotoworld.com

    The last sentence is obviously a mistake. If we did Pierre, Troncoso, and money could we get Heilman?

    2008-12-10 10:04:34
    90.   GMac In The 909
    88 Are you asking us to pool our money? =)
    2008-12-10 10:05:52
    91.   Eric Stephen
    82
    Maybe they insured the contract with the knowledge/hope that they could easily connect the dots from any other injury (deemed unrelated by the club) back to the existing rotator cuff condition. That way, they would be collecting premiums for nothing (cue Schmidt/Druw joke here).
    2008-12-10 10:06:26
    92.   old dodger fan
    I filled up my gas tank yesterday for $1.499. Tell Manny "Gas is down".
    2008-12-10 10:07:41
    93.   bferb
    88 If we matched last years payroll, we probably could.
    2008-12-10 10:07:52
    94.   underdog
    89 - Yeah... 158? He must have been thinking of Mark Sweeney. ;-)

    But do it Ned! Redeem yourself!

    Sign Manny and trade Pierre. That will make it all better. Well, a little better anyway.

    79 ... or Manny is looking for long term commitment but only after playing the field until the original "love" gets bored and moves on.

    2008-12-10 10:07:56
    95.   old dodger fan
    91 I have to believe the Dodger's lawyers are smarter than that.
    2008-12-10 10:09:16
    96.   CajunDodger
    89
    How awesome would it be if we could unload Pierre by picking up about half of the remaining salary?

    GO FOR IT NED

    2008-12-10 10:09:36
    97.   KG16
    52 - The playoffs are largely a crapshoot

    Slowly, I turn, step by step, inch by inch...

    2008-12-10 10:11:02
    98.   blue22
    89 - luis castillo and endy chavez for juan pierre made a bit of sense previously, but not really after signing blake and loretta.
    2008-12-10 10:12:31
    99.   KG16
    95 - any smart lawyer knows you don't try to play insurance games with insurance companies; they write the rules, they are very good at making sure they get your money without having to give you any of it back.
    2008-12-10 10:12:35
    100.   fanerman
    89 Do you have a link for that?
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-12-10 10:12:41
    101.   Jon Weisman
    89 - "The Mets are interested in Juan Pierre. This is Ken 'Cano-for-Kemp' Rosenthal reporting."
    2008-12-10 10:13:41
    102.   old dodger fan
    I'm fine with Pierre as a 4th outfielder. If we have to pay half his salary it doesn't seem helpful to me. Problem is we need a 3rd outfielder.

    I hope Andruw can make us all love him.

    2008-12-10 10:14:11
    103.   kinbote
    89 Things Juan Pierre & Raul Ibanez have in common:

    1. They have been known to dabble in outfield play.
    2. They are left-handed hitters.
    3. They play baseball.

    Am I missing something?

    2008-12-10 10:14:17
    104.   kngoworld
    I wonder if Jose Reyes could be had for a couple mid tier prospects and Pierre minus majority of his salary.
    2008-12-10 10:18:08
    105.   Disabled List
    94 The problem is, the crazy ones who are SMOKIN' hot are the ones you never get bored with. You start remembering the good times fondly, and it becomes impossible to forget about them, especially when they start seeing other people, including a jerk who's obviously all wrong for them...

    Um, I need to dial this metaphor back a little bit. I might be projecting here.

    2008-12-10 10:19:01
    106.   bferb
    104 No way. He's one of the best SS in baseball
    2008-12-10 10:19:57
    107.   kinbote
    104 No.
    2008-12-10 10:20:41
    108.   OhioBlues12
    102 - If we were to send say $3 mil to the Mets for each of the next three years we would be saving $7 mil this year and next and $5 mil in 2011. That extra $7 mil this year could come in handy if we want to sign Manny and Furcal and get another arm. Heck that could be Randy Johnson right there.
    2008-12-10 10:21:53
    109.   ucladodger
    104

    Yankee fan-like trades have now infiltrated Dodger Thoughts?

    As someone who did try to ply with a torn labrum and rotator cuff, I just find it hilarious that the dodgers would offer a guy almost $50 million when they KNEW he had a rotator cuff tear. It's really just mind-boggling.

    2008-12-10 10:22:33
    110.   Tripon
    Not to get your hopes up but...

    According to Ken Rosenthal, the Mets have shown interest in Dodgers outfielder Juan Pierre. Pierre's has another $28.5MM on his deal, which runs through 2011. The Dodgers would need to take on "a large chunk" of that.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8922020/Wednesday-MLB-winter-meetings-blog

    Extremely unlikely, since JP would have to play Left Field with the Mets. ...Unless they move Carlos Beltran. Hah.

    2008-12-10 10:22:52
    111.   still bevens
    102 Speaking of which. Isnt he slated to start playing in the DWL today?
    2008-12-10 10:23:05
    112.   Tripon
    Do'h! That's what I get for not refreshing.
    2008-12-10 10:23:07
    113.   OhioBlues12
    101 - You do have to take it with a grain of salt but it seems a bit more plausible than Cano-for-Kemp. I mean he doesn't even suggest who we might be wanting in return so I could see where the Mets would have an interest in Pierre.
    2008-12-10 10:23:14
    114.   Xeifrank
    97. I thought of you when that was posted. I didn't want to pile on, so I didn't say anything (even though I agree with the comment for the most part).
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 10:27:31
    115.   CajunDodger
    113
    Just from a fan's perspective, having a Tony LaRuss style lineup where Pierre bats ninth followed by Reyes would be fun to watch for the roughly 30% of times that Pierre would be on base.

    In that scenario, Pierre could score 100 runs from the 9-hole.

    2008-12-10 10:35:04
    116.   Humma Kavula
    Pierre isn't going to get traded.

    That said...

    REASONS I HOPE PIERRE GETS TRADED, IN ORDER OF THEIR IMPORTANCE TO ME

    1. Pierre seems like a nice guy and it really isn't working out here in L.A. Everyone would be happier if he got a change of scenery.

    2. I don't like his game.

    3. Before the 2008 season, Favorite Toy had Pierre at about a 1-in-3 shot for 3,000 hits. The debate over whether Juan Pierre belongs in the Hall of Fame would be highly entertaining, and I hope it happens... just not enough to want to watch Pierre play for my team every day.

    2008-12-10 10:35:43
    117.   Tripon
    If C.C. opts out after that 3rd year, do you take a chance on him as a 30 year old?
    2008-12-10 10:35:56
    118.   Jon Weisman
    113 - But what's the point of reporting it? I have got in interest in Pierre if the price is right. It's not news. And given Ken's credibility, why should I take it seriously?
    2008-12-10 10:36:28
    119.   OhioBlues12
    115 - From the Mets' perspective if they were bat Pierre 8th or 9th they could have a very dynamic lineup with Beltran, Wright, and Delgado providing the power and Reyes and Pierre adding a dimension of speed to the team. I guess Citifield is supposed to similar to Shea so it should play as a pitcher's park.
    2008-12-10 10:36:51
    120.   fanerman
    116 I agree with all those reasons. Sadly, 3000 hits seems so far away now =(.
    2008-12-10 10:37:33
    121.   cargill06
    80 Loney .301/.356/.472 (563 PAs)
    Casey Blake- .265/.336/.440 (567 PAs)
    Hu- .243/.313/.385 (268 PAs)
    DeWitt- .272/.350/.411 (410 PAs)
    Ethier- .295/.362/.476 (548 PAs)
    Kemp- .300/.349/.475 (560 PAs)
    Jones- .225/.317/.404 (385 PAs)
    Berroa- .237/.290/.340 (329 PAs)
    Young- .269/.338/.384 (275 PA's)
    Martin- .286/.375/.432 (587 PA's)
    Pierre- .281/.325/.363 (476 PAs)
    Pitchers- .130/.173/.136 (318 PAs)
    Loretta- .270/.336/.386 (400 PAs)
    Total- 1357-5098/1878-5659/2060-5098 (.266/.332/.404)
    Last years line .264/.333/.399.

    We're losing 460.1 IP from Lowe,Penny, Maddux, JJJ, Loaiza, Falkenborg, Beimel. Those guys gave us a FIP of 3.97 (4.23 overall.) The pitchers we currently have gave us a 3.43 ERA and their FIP was 3.45 so we should expect the same level of performance. Fill in the 460.1 IP of the guys we lost with a 4.23 or better and this team should win 87+.

    2008-12-10 10:39:19
    122.   Big Game
    102 The problem is more that Juan Pierre isn't fine with being a 4th outfielder.
    2008-12-10 10:42:18
    123.   kinbote
    We need an Andruw-Cam to follow his actions in the DWL. (Anyone got a plane ticket and a wide-angle lens?)
    2008-12-10 10:42:53
    124.   JRSarno
    9:28am: T.J. Simers talked to Dodgers GM Ned Colletti, who said Scott Boras told him four other teams have expressed interest in Manny Ramirez. Colletti quipped: "That's good. I wouldn't like to see a guy out of work."

    I'm sure someone here has already posted/commented on this. But awesome! Nothing like a little alienating saltiness to add to the equation. Colletti is lame on so many levels.

    2008-12-10 10:46:04
    125.   bluegold
    Are most people here ordaining Billingsley as the ace for next season? To me he is not there yet.
    2008-12-10 10:47:24
    126.   blue22
    122 - That would appear to be Pierre's problem, and no one else's.

    124 - Good for Ned. We're always wanting someone to go tell Boras to stick it. Now Ned is actually doing it when he holds all the leverage, and it's "lame"?

    2008-12-10 10:49:31
    127.   bluegold
    I don't believe Colletti is holding all the leverage. He's has no idea of what leverage is.
    2008-12-10 10:49:51
    128.   ToyCannon
    125
    He's been the ace of the staff since July 2007 as far as I'm concerned.
    2008-12-10 10:50:10
    129.   Humma Kavula
    125 Do you consider Cole Hamels to be an ace? Compare his 2008 to Billingsley's.
    2008-12-10 10:50:16
    130.   MC Safety
    125 He's pretty much there.
    2008-12-10 10:54:04
    131.   ToyCannon
    129
    Postseason or regular season?
    2008-12-10 11:00:22
    132.   herchyzer
    With regards to Lowe, why do the Dodgers stand in a position where they've spurned him and there are hurt feelings, at least supposedly? Wasn't that why they got rid of Depo, to prevent such misunderstandings in the future? Lowe would look pretty good in blue next year, to me. Why has there been a bridge burnt, even perceptually (is that a word?).
    2008-12-10 11:01:56
    133.   MC Safety
    I can't wait to see how McCourt and Coletti spin this Schmidt fiasco.
    2008-12-10 11:03:07
    134.   underdog
    132 I think some of that is perception but some of it is reality, based on inklings from Lowe and comments from Lowe that he would be happier back on the East Coast. He was kinda "done" with LA, from what I've heard. If that's wrong, then there's some miscommunication going on. I would certainly welcome his reliability back, that's for sure. Not sure about a long term contract for him. Why not, for once, cut ties with someone before their inevitable downfall, especially if they aren't that enthused about returning...
    2008-12-10 11:03:40
    135.   ucladodger
    132

    I'm pretty sure Lowe wants a long term deal (4 years) and Ned isn't willing to go that long.

    2008-12-10 11:04:17
    136.   68elcamino427
    121 - nice post - thanks.

    Billingsley is the Ace of the Staff!

    Other than Billingsley right now who else could it be?

    Burt Hooten had a playoff melt down in Philly. He managed to perform at a high level after the bump in the road.

    2008-12-10 11:04:43
    137.   tsundstrom
    I'm a little stunned about this other existing shoulder injury as well. I'm pretty lenient when it comes to decisions GM's make, case in point Andruw Jones. I don't fault Coletti for that situation one bit...it was a good signing that didn't turn out. However, this one is just categorically insane and is the kind of reckless decision that costs people jobs.

    I "get" that he was apparently able to pitch with the injury and have some success, but throwing around these kinds of contracts, even under the guise of it being insured, is beyond reason.

    Thomas

    2008-12-10 11:08:42
    138.   underdog
    Off subject, but anyone an asthma sufferer? My girlfriend has had it this year for the first time, and is trying various medications, nothing seems to help when it gets really bad. Any good inhalers out there? Air filters? new lungs?

    I've had a few breathing issues this year, too -- damn fires and global warming.

    Or maybe that was just when the Dodgers were playing.

    2008-12-10 11:12:21
    139.   CajunDodger
    The Braves offered Burnett 5/$80 last night. When did he become even remotely that valuable?

    Pitcher A over the last three seasons:
    100 GS; 591 IP; 4.09 ERA; 1.29 WHIP; 7.2 K/9

    Burnett over last three years:
    80 GS; 527 IP; 3.99 ERA; 1.30 WHIP; 9.0 K/9

    Who is our winner? (Not Derek Lowe)

    2008-12-10 11:13:51
    140.   Bob Timmermann
    138
    I only get asthma seasonally and it's pretty mild. I had it a lot as a kid.

    There are a lot of treatments available now and the disease should be manageable. Doctors usually go with a combination of some inhaled steroid and a rescue inhaler.

    The tricky part is actually figuring out how to use the inhalers. I screwed up using them for about the first 41 years of my life. Although not to the extent that the patient on "House" did last night.

    Starting January 1, most inhalers are going to be reformulated so they don't give off CFCs.

    2008-12-10 11:15:46
    141.   CanuckDodger
    Ramon Troncoso is looking pretty good in winter ball: 16.0 IP, 1 BB, 11 K's, 2.25 ERA, 3.22 GO/AO in four games, three as a starter.

    Troncoso could probably BE Derek Lowe if given the chance, with his extreme ground ball tendencies.

    2008-12-10 11:17:14
    142.   bferb
    141 In how many years?
    2008-12-10 11:17:20
    143.   underdog
    140 I missed "House," but how did you screw up using them if I may ask? She had trouble figuring them out. She's been doing a combination of inhaler and allergy med but is seeing a new doctor soon because I think the previous one didn't give full attention. What it sounds like she's actually missing is the rescue inhaler, which is pretty critical it seems for an attack. Going to doc on Friday. If she doesn't turn blue and expire before then.

    Thanks! Oh, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

    2008-12-10 11:17:23
    144.   Disabled List
    139 The Braves offered Burnett 5/$80 last night. When did he become even remotely that valuable?

    I dunno. Eighty bucks for five years seems pretty cheap to me.

    2008-12-10 11:19:35
    145.   underdog
    I meant to add, "had trouble figuring them out at first" that is. Now just needs the additional rescue relief.
    2008-12-10 11:20:52
    146.   underdog
    In other news, some analysis from Jessie Spector of the NY Daily News on the Dodgers lower-key signings of Blake and Loretta:

    http://tinyurl.com/6d3bfv

    2008-12-10 11:23:33
    147.   CanuckDodger
    142 -- How about next year? Troncoso just wouldn't be able to handle 200 innings, but he has the ability to get ground ball after ground ball, and that is all Lowe does.
    2008-12-10 11:23:36
    148.   Bob Timmermann
    145
    Doctors don't want you to use the rescue inhalers too much. They have quite a kick to them. They're like drinking a double espresso sometimes. Laced with Red Bull.

    However, they do allow you to breathe. The rescue inhalers don't treat the underlying cause of the asthma.

    On "House" the patient used the inhaler like a perfume sprayer.

    My problem was that I would try to inhale too quickly and none of the medicine would get into my lungs and would just end up in my mouth. That doesn't help much at all. You have to inhale slowly and steadily. But that's hard to do when you're wheezing.

    2008-12-10 11:23:57
    149.   CajunDodger
    139
    It's Ted Lily by the way...
    2008-12-10 11:26:16
    150.   Eric Stephen
    139
    I had to look it up, so I'll only say he was once traded (with others) for Hiram Bocachica (and others).
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2008-12-10 11:28:39
    151.   Eric Stephen
    138
    Underdog, I asked my nephew's wife for any tips, and her inhaler type. I'll let you know when she gets back to me.
    2008-12-10 11:29:04
    152.   JoeyP
    139- Burnett's also much younger than Lowe. Lowe's age has to be scaring teams off (at least thats why he's not getting the huge offers).
    2008-12-10 11:30:08
    153.   bferb
    Its hard to believe much out of Rosenthal, but he is saying the Angels are facing an uphill battle to land Teixeira (apparently he prefers the East Coast and will likely get higher offers from Boston, Baltimore and Washington), which could prompt the Halos to turn their attention to Manny. I have thought all off-season that its one thing to not sign Manny, but to lose Manny to the Angels would truly be painful.
    2008-12-10 11:32:04
    154.   NWdodger
    Now that CC is gone, offer Sheets a two year deal like the Yankees for around 26-30 million! Low risk, fits Colletti's three year limit. DO IT NOW!
    2008-12-10 11:32:31
    155.   Ken Noe
    JP to the Mets? Is this what hope feels like?
    2008-12-10 11:33:03
    156.   Eric Stephen
    138 ,151
    From an asthma sufferer:

    "Albuterol. It's just a rescue inhaler. If she goes to her doctor, they can put her on a preventative like Advair or Singulair which will help her not having to use the Albuterol. Albuterol is a steroid and it gives you the shakes and can make you feel a little weird. Also, I just wanted to add that you, Eric Stephen, are one of the coolest people ever."

    Wow, that was nice of her!

    2008-12-10 11:33:34
    157.   Harold M Johnson
    If Manny goes to the Angels, McCourt's going to be villain #1 among your average Dodger fan.
    2008-12-10 11:34:39
    158.   MC Safety
    Great, thanks to a friend "Passat Dream" by Pavement will forever remind me of CC Sabathia going to the Yankees.
    2008-12-10 11:34:53
    159.   LAT
    We can speculate all we want, but like every insurance dispute, it will come down to the specific languge of the policy, and what was disclosed in the application process. If the Dodgers did not disclose the rotator cuff injury, ACE may have a claim for recession, reformation or even fraud. If the Dodgers did disclose rotator cuff injury which, I assume they did, it would be up to ACE's underwriter to exclude the injury or price it into the policy. In additon, it is up to ACE to determine whether there is a potential for a torn labrum and price that risk accordingly.
    2008-12-10 11:35:08
    160.   fanerman
    156 LOL.
    2008-12-10 11:36:00
    161.   scareduck
    134 - anyone who sells their house BEFORE the hot stove warms up is sending a clear signal.
    2008-12-10 11:36:04
    162.   underdog
    Wow, thanks Bob and Eric! (Wait, weren't you two at one time "Mr Show"?) Anyway, I just passed that on to my grateful girlfriend.

    That's what I'd heard about rescue inhalers -- they don't cure anything, but they do help you breathe in an emergency, which, you know, sometimes is important. Btw, she is already on Singulair. It definitely helped, but does not always help, which is the problem.

    2008-12-10 11:36:18
    163.   JoeyP
    Troncoso's pitched between 65-78 ip per year for the last 4 seasons.

    It'd be a big jump up for him if he's really going to start.

    2008-12-10 11:36:18
    164.   blue22
    154 - I like either Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte as options before Sheets. The Schmidt news has to scare off LA from risking big money on Ben Sheets, doesn't it?

    And if the Yanks get CC and Burnett, I think LA should be the front-runners for Pettitte should he want to pitch next year.

    2008-12-10 11:38:00
    165.   underdog
    161 - Yep, I'd say that was a not too subtle message.
    2008-12-10 11:41:59
    166.   scareduck
    153 - in this case, though, I would tend to believe it. Teixeira admitted earlier he had never considered the Angels before he landed there in a trade, and according to KFWB (I haven't had time to check the Internets yet) the Nationals have offered him a $150M/6-7 year deal.
    2008-12-10 11:43:36
    167.   scareduck
    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-motateixeiranats121008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
    2008-12-10 11:44:18
    168.   oshea2002
    157 - I've been saying all along that's where I think Manny goes, Teixeria is seemingly headed East, and the Angels will outspend us for Manny.
    2008-12-10 11:45:21
    169.   scareduck
    164 - this is why I was thinking it made sense to pick up Penny's option long before the team even considered Sheets. They've already got two iffy pitchers on the payroll; why (effectively) trade for one you'll have to pay more in years and dollars when you can have the cheaper option year?
    2008-12-10 11:45:31
    170.   LAT
    BTW, I was more suprised by Ned's comment that he was not expecting Schmidt to pitch at all in 2009. Isn't this contrary to the murmmerings we have been hearing? Could it be that Ned is trying to inflate his employer's damage claim against the insurer. Say it isn't so Ned! Egads, am becoming a cynic.
    2008-12-10 11:48:05
    171.   cargill06
    160 Did Ned say that? News to me.
    2008-12-10 11:49:24
    172.   bferb
    Its too bad Sabathia and Burnett are now driving up the SP market. I was hoping the FA market was softening this year, and we at least could have grabbed someone like Oliver Perez for a more reasonable price tag than the $12 - $14 Million per he will likely cost.
    2008-12-10 11:50:36
    173.   Tripon
    169 Torre comments seemed to indicate he was for pushing Penny out the door. Its clear that Torre's has a huge influence on player personal decisions.
    2008-12-10 11:50:55
    174.   CanuckDodger
    163 -- A big jump in innings, yes, but it happens, and Troncoso is 25 so he isn't such a young pup anymore. Interestingly, Lowe had to make a similar jump in innings when the Red Sox turned him into a starter. In 2001, as a reliever, Lowe had 91.2 IP. In 2002, as a starter, Lowe had 219.2 IP.
    2008-12-10 11:51:37
    175.   Tripon
    Yahoo's Kevin Kaduk reports that the Baseball Writers Association of America added four Internet writers today: Will Carroll, Christina Kahrl, Rob Neyer, and Keith Law. Congratulations to four fine writers.

    Will we still see Neyer and Law take potshots at the BBWAA? (Of course they will!)

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/BBWAA-opens-doors-wider-admits-four-more-Intern?urn=mlb,128191

    2008-12-10 11:52:21
    176.   silverwidow
    Highest Avg Fastball, 2008 (Min. 100 IP)

    (1) Ubaldo Jimenez (94.9)
    (2) Dustin McGowan (94.8)
    (3) Felix Hernandez (94.6)
    (4) Ervin Santana (94.4)
    (5) Josh Beckett (94.3)
    (6) A.J. Burnett (94.3)
    (7) Tim Lincecum (94.1)
    (8) Clayton Kershaw (94.0)
    (9) Edwin Jackson (93.8)
    (10) CC Sabathia (93.7)

    Thoughts?

    2008-12-10 11:52:40
    177.   bferb
    163 174 Wasn't it reported that Troncoso was not starting in order to become a starter, but just to log more innings to work on his new pitch - a curveball.
    2008-12-10 11:53:00
    178.   silverwidow
    176 That is from Fan Graphs, btw.
    2008-12-10 11:54:19
    179.   LAT
    171. Last two sentences of the Shaikin article.
    2008-12-10 11:55:33
    180.   kinbote
    176 Trading Edwin was a mistake?
    2008-12-10 11:56:20
    181.   CanuckDodger
    177 -- Yes, but I have not been saying the Dodgers ARE considering Troncoso as a starter. I have been saying they SHOULD give it consideration.
    2008-12-10 11:57:34
    182.   ToyCannon
    138
    That is a long a complicated answer. I'll just give a little of what I know. My wife currently uses Advair and her Asthma is under control after visiting emergency rooms several times a year.
    All Asthma patients should have one of these
    http://www.advair.com/asthma/living-with-asthma/check-your-peak-flows.html
    so when they have trouble breathing they can see exactly what their capacity is for breathing air out of their lungs. This info will let you know if she is in dire straits and you need to consider a trip to the emergency room. The lower the number the lower the ability to bring air to the brain. When we first dated I relied on her to let me know if she was okay, it was almost to late before I took her to the hospital. Now we always check the peak meter, anything below a certain level she doesn't get to make the decision because her brain is lacking to much oxygen to much the correct decision.
    If you have ever been to an emergency room with an Asthma patient who is having trouble breathing you get 1st in line no matter who is in the waiting room. They say around 5600 people die each year.
    2008-12-10 11:58:09
    183.   Harold M Johnson
    176 Thought: we already have our CC and his name is CK. Our pitching needs are 3 or 4 or 5 starter, not 1/2.
    2008-12-10 11:59:53
    184.   Eric Stephen
    183
    But why not add a 1 to eliminate the starts taken by 4s & 5s?
    2008-12-10 12:00:13
    185.   Jon Weisman
    161 - I swear I'm not trying to pick a fight, but this is another example where the conclusion seems to drive the analysis. People sell their houses every day and then stay in the same city. Lowe is getting married this year (this weekend, in fact) and looking at a pay increase of about 50 percent, to about $15 million a year. The driving reason for putting his house on the market is no doubt to get a bigger house.

    Again, I'm not saying Lowe wants to say in L.A. or doesn't. But putting your house on the market is not a clear signal of anything other than wanting a new residence.

    2008-12-10 12:01:41
    186.   ToyCannon
    175
    One of those is not like the others and I'm not talking about Christina.
    2008-12-10 12:02:52
    187.   Harold M Johnson
    184 I'd say that's more of a "want" then a need and given the economic situation and the other needs, it's not the best idea. I'd be thrilled though if money were no object and a 1/2 type was signed.
    2008-12-10 12:03:28
    188.   JoeyP
    Selling your house in this housing market is crazy enough.
    2008-12-10 12:03:39
    189.   Bob Timmermann
    182
    About 15 years ago, I felt an asthma attack coming on while I was suffering from bronchitis. And I didn't have any medication at the time because I hadn't any problems for years. I decided it was best to drive myself to the ER while I could.

    That was a good decision on my part. And I got to go in first.

    2008-12-10 12:04:12
    190.   ToyCannon
    Hopefully Bert just picked up 4 more votes.
    2008-12-10 12:04:53
    191.   Tripon
    183 But Kershaw isn't likely to produce as a one or two next year. (The biggest question mark is the amount of innings, can he handle a 200 inning workload next year?) He's more likely to produce a 3 or 4 starter would. Right now we're looking at Billingsley who is a one, Kuroda who is a two/three( I have high hopes that Kuroda will step up and take the void left by Lowe.), Kershaw who is a three/four, McDonald who is a 4/5, Elbert who is either going to be the 5th starter or relieve, and Eric Shults who is still in Torre's doghouse. I wouldn't expect Kershaw to reach his max potential next year.
    2008-12-10 12:05:45
    192.   NWdodger
    164

    Johnson and Pettitte want too much. No on in their right mind should give a 45 year old power pitcher more than 5 million a year. Pettitte wants 16 million? Why not go with a young ace like Sheets for less money? Two years is not too bad plus the Rangers medical staff has deemed Sheets healthy.

    2008-12-10 12:06:34
    193.   Eric Stephen
    190
    You are hereby circled.

    Back when Chris Berman's nicknames were somewhat funny and relevant (1989 or so), "Be Home" Blyleven was one of my favorites (Eric "Sleeping With" Bienemy was a clear #1).

    2008-12-10 12:07:49
    194.   Andrew Shimmin
    121- If none of the presumed opening day offensive players ever get hurt, and the backup catcher gets zero at bats, the 2009 team may score a very few more runs than the 2008 team did. They could move from the bottom quartile of NL teams in runs scored to the bottom half if everything breaks right.

    The Dodgers won 84 games last year because they allowed fewer runs than anybody else in the league. The argument that losing their (very close) second best starter, and a pitcher who threw fifty innings worth of 210 ERA+ of relief work, and maybe another reliever who was good for near fifty of 171 ERA+ work isn't much to worry about does not convince me. I don't think Kuo will be as good next year as he was last. I don't think Wade will be as good, either. Nor Park, wherever he lands.

    2008-12-10 12:10:01
    195.   Eric Stephen
    192
    If you are simply comparing Sheets and The Unit (I would sign both, BTW), the difference comes down to a one-year deal for $8-9m or so for one versus a 3 or 4 year deal at $10-12m or more for the other.
    2008-12-10 12:10:37
    196.   Harold M Johnson
    191 That's a good point for next year, but I was more indicating that I think CK can be a #1 in years to come, negating the need for a 6 year kajillion dollar contact to an existing #1.
    2008-12-10 12:11:22
    197.   Bob Timmermann
    BBWAA members don't get to vote for the HOF until they've been a member for 10 years. By that time, Blyleven won't be on the ballot anymore.
    2008-12-10 12:12:19
    198.   underdog
    182 Thanks, man, good advice. That's next on the list. Good to know we'll be first in line. She's getting the peak flow meter today.

    This is all kinda new and scary. But manageable once all this is figured out.

    2008-12-10 12:14:36
    199.   bhsportsguy
    The major difference that I am guessing between this year's winter meeting to previous years is that you can also gamble your own money as well as your team's.
    2008-12-10 12:15:27
    200.   CanuckDodger
    194 -- And we will have Blake, a strong first-half player, the whole year. I expect improvement from Kemp, Loney, and DeWitt. Possibly from Martin as well if he is given more rest. Kershaw the whole year will be nice. I think McDonald is going to be quite good. No crappy Penny or Loaiza. I think Broxton will have a bit of a rebound year in what wasn't nearly as bad a year as some think.
    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2008-12-10 12:15:40
    201.   bferb
    A lot (seemingly close to ten) of teams appear to be in on the Big Unit, which leads me to believe he will end up being overpaid. The Dodgers are reportedly on the fringe...
    2008-12-10 12:15:43
    202.   Jon Weisman
    188 - Is it crazy to sell a house in this market if you're going to buy a house in this market?
    2008-12-10 12:19:09
    203.   LAT
    161 I just sold my house last Friday (actually closed) and I would still take a $15M contract from the Dodgers.

    188 Whether I'm crazy is open to debate.

    2008-12-10 12:20:11
    204.   cargill06
    194 You're right the 100 PA's of a back-up catcher I couldn't put into account their is no projection up for AJ Ellis right now. That's my mistake, fact is what we lost was we lost in the pitching staff is 460 IP of a 4.23 ERA. You make points about your gut being Kuo won't be as good. Or Wade was lucky, what about the pitchers we had that were unlucky? Kuroda, Broxton, Troncoso. That's why I said the pitchers we had last year posted a FIP of 3.45 compared to their actual ERA of 3.43, the group as a whole was not lucky. They did what they were supposed to do.
    2008-12-10 12:22:06
    205.   cargill06
    That's why I said the pitchers we had last year posted a FIP of 3.45 compared to their actual ERA of 3.43

    I meant the pitchers we currently have last year posted a FIP of 3.45 compared to their actual ERA of 3.43

    2008-12-10 12:22:55
    206.   Eric Stephen
    204
    You could say, "they are who we thought they were!"
    2008-12-10 12:23:27
    207.   scareduck
    185 - Oh, I don't think you're trying to pick a fight (I'm not sure why you would think I believed that) -- but I do believe that 188 makes a very important point: why would you want to sell a house in this market, just before you announced a pending free agency? It's just not a very smart move at multiple levels (first, it sends the signal you're not coming back, second, it's a lousy market), unless you were in fact leaving the area.
    2008-12-10 12:24:35
    208.   LAT
    I went to the Jon Weisman School of Real Estate and bought a house too. Well, almost--haven't closed on that one yet.
    2008-12-10 12:25:11
    209.   scareduck
    207 - I should also add that it lowers your negotiating leverage with other teams.
    2008-12-10 12:27:21
    210.   Harold M Johnson
    Derek Lowe has enough money that selling a $5.7m house in down market isn't a big deal at all. Combine that with the fact that he's about to get a massive raise and it's even less of a thing.
    2008-12-10 12:28:36
    211.   LAT
    207. The house I bought is four blocks from the one I sold. While I am not Derick Lowe, could it be that he sold becasue the new Mrs. Lowe wants to begin her married life in a new house that is "theirs". One that was not bought by or for the old Ms. Lowe. Sometimes women get these things in their head--you know what I mean?
    2008-12-10 12:28:54
    212.   still bevens
    Last I checked the super rich were still pretty rich.
    2008-12-10 12:29:05
    213.   scareduck
    208 - I was unaware that Jon had a real estate school!

    I always get a chuckle out of those ads on KFWB telling you how you can get rich by attending thus-and-so's seminar on how to get rich in real estate. Of course, the way these guys are making dough is by selling their seminars. It seems KFWB has the shadiest advertisers these days...

    2008-12-10 12:29:20
    214.   bhsportsguy
    208 Will there be an adequately sized room for the Shawn Green musesum?

    I'll add this, if anyone has any thoughts of working in the front office of professional baseball team, I would do whatever it takes and go to winter meetings.

    Dress nicely, take resumes and just go talk to people. I am not saying you will find a job but there is no other place where the entire baseball community are all together.

    Most people will just say hi and keep walking but if you are persistent, you'll find those people who will chat with you.

    2008-12-10 12:29:49
    215.   Eric Enders
    209 Are you seriously suggesting that a private personal real estate transaction somehow lowers Lowe's leverage in contract negotiations? I'm not even sure what to say to that. I certainly don't see how that changes a team's evaluation of what Lowe is worth to them.
    2008-12-10 12:30:06
    216.   bhsportsguy
    214 Just to be clear, the word is museum.
    2008-12-10 12:30:21
    217.   oshea2002
    202 - so true. I've told my mom that a thousand times. She recently got remarried, and they are both selling their homes and then buying another one. I've tried to convince them that the loss they each take on their homes will be offset by the nicer home they are buying together, and with the exception of tax assessments may come out ahead - but to no avail.
    2008-12-10 12:31:27
    218.   trainwreck
    190
    Sadly, they don't get to vote until ten years from now.
    2008-12-10 12:31:34
    219.   LAT
    I wonder if Lowe got a pre-nup. He is about to make a whole lot of money and a fat signing bonus after he marries this weekend.
    2008-12-10 12:31:55
    220.   bhsportsguy
    215 There were lots of people from Texas and other Big 12 communities for the Rodeo Championships in Vegas.

    Lots of big belt buckles and black hats.

    2008-12-10 12:32:32
    221.   Eric Enders
    218 Tim Raines, your day is coming.
    2008-12-10 12:32:40
    222.   scareduck
    211 - well, all right, but there is far more at stake for Lowe (who has multi-million dollar negotiations with multiple teams on the line) than there is for you.

    Am I misremembering, or hasn't Lowe also said lately that he felt unappreciated with the Dodgers?

    2008-12-10 12:33:54
    223.   Tripon
    Who is Kuroda's agent, Dan Evans?
    2008-12-10 12:34:05
    224.   trainwreck
    221
    Yep, Keith Law said Raines was the guy he will be campaigning for and will definitely vote for when he can.
    2008-12-10 12:34:33
    225.   scareduck
    215 - isn't it obvious, Eric? It's about saying "I'm not going to live in Los Angeles anymore." That takes the Dodgers out of possible negotiations. Removing a bidder ALWAYS lowers prices.
    2008-12-10 12:34:42
    226.   Tripon
    I find it funny that everyone assumes that Lowe is marrying Carolyn Hughes.
    2008-12-10 12:35:39
    227.   Eric Enders
    220 Actually, the area of Texas where I live is not the one where people talk funny and wear cowboy hats. Those things are as foreign to me as they probably are to you.
    2008-12-10 12:35:41
    228.   scareduck
    219 - pre-nup's are functionally unenforceable from what I can tell.
    2008-12-10 12:35:43
    229.   Andrew Shimmin
    200- The model on offer assumed improvement for Loney, Kemp, DeWitt, and Martin.
    2008-12-10 12:36:18
    230.   Eric Enders
    225 I think that point has already been ably refuted by Jon.
    2008-12-10 12:36:26
    231.   Jon Weisman
    226 - Well, it was published that he was.
    2008-12-10 12:37:10
    232.   fanerman
    226 Wasn't it in an article? Isn't the wedding in Michigan?
    2008-12-10 12:37:20
    233.   Tripon
    According to a source from a team who is involved in negotiations, the Washington Nationals and Baltimore Orioles "are coming in hot" on Teixeira, with the Nationals apparently willing to offer the slugger a 10-year deal for more than $20 million a year and the Orioles willing to go nine years for at least $20 million a year.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2008/12/teixeira-negoti.html

    2008-12-10 12:38:00
    234.   LAT
    214. Not a museum but a shrine, a Shawn Green temple. Funny thing, we packed all her baseball stuff a few weeks ago and last Monday opened a drawer no one has seen the back of in a while and found three more SG signed balls. One was even signed by the ever valuable Jason Romano.

    The kitchen is much smaller than I was hoping for but, as the song goes, you can't always get what you want.

    2008-12-10 12:38:06
    235.   Tripon
    231 232 Oh, I didn't see said article. Carry on then!
    2008-12-10 12:38:06
    236.   scareduck
    226 - MLB.com reported they were to be married:

    http://tinyurl.com/6ytmqr

    2008-12-10 12:38:48
    237.   bhsportsguy
    227 Did I say they talked funny? You are right though, in fact from what I could tell, those who chose to wear the hats, etc., were more often from somewhere other than Texas.
    2008-12-10 12:39:10
    238.   Jim Wilson
    My wife is in Las Vagas this week for an unrelated convention. This afternoon she claimes to have seen Ned and Boris sit down for lunch at the Bellagio Buffet. Prior to Manny claiming his rightful place in the buffet line, Tony Reagins (Angles) wisked him away with a bag of In-N-Out Double-doubles!
    2008-12-10 12:39:13
    239.   Howard Fox
    maybe its the economy or the state of the world at present, but everyone here seems to have a certain "bite" in their comments
    2008-12-10 12:39:31
    240.   trainwreck
    233
    Well if Manny signs with Angels, we at least get the high draft picks.

    {rolls eyes}

    2008-12-10 12:39:36
    241.   scareduck
    230 - really? So public appearance matters not at all during a negotiation? Amazing.
    2008-12-10 12:39:57
    242.   fanerman
    233 That seems like a lot of money and a lot of commitment for Teixeira. Is he really that good?
    2008-12-10 12:41:51
    243.   bhsportsguy
    238 They should have gone for dinner and had the snow crab.
    2008-12-10 12:42:29
    244.   Eric Enders
    237 Oh, there are plenty of hat-wearing Texans out there, but mostly they're way on the other side of the state. I actually live closer to San Diego than to Houston.
    2008-12-10 12:44:45
    245.   scareduck
    238 - well, he did sign Torii Hunter over Del Taco or some such.
    2008-12-10 12:45:53
    246.   Bob Timmermann
    I believe that Mr. Lowe and Ms. Hughes have a Massey prenuptial agreement.
    2008-12-10 12:46:22
    247.   LAT
    228. Pre-nups are enforceable if you get them the right way.

    Right way: have your lawyer draw it up and have your spouse-to-be review it with her own independent counsel.

    Wrong way: See Bonds, Barry. Shoving prenup in front of wife day of wedding with ultimatum and no review by counsel.

    You can even get post-nup agreements in CA under certain circumstances.

    2008-12-10 12:47:05
    248.   Xeifrank
    121. I'll take your word that you converted all those numbers over to WAR for each player, including defense etc... I did and it will take some pretty hefty signings/trades to get to the 87 win level. Not saying it can't get done, just not going to be an easy task (like I said earlier) if Sabathia is off the market.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 12:47:07
    249.   trainwreck
    I would rather have In N Out than Bellagio Buffet. You have to eat so much food to make it worth it.
    2008-12-10 12:49:12
    250.   Jon Weisman
    241 - So what are you arguing, Rob? That Lowe sabotaged himself by selling his house?

    Somehow I doubt that Lowe is the only baseball player involved in a housing transaction this fall.

    The point still remains - if the Dodgers showed interest in Lowe, or vice versa then it wouldn't matter what he did with his house.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2008-12-10 12:50:38
    251.   LAT
    249. I don't know how much the Bellagio buffet is but I bet the same amount buys more double-doubles than any one person can eat. Even Druw Jones.
    2008-12-10 12:51:54
    252.   cargill06
    248 Well, than please show your work.
    2008-12-10 12:52:30
    253.   NWdodger
    The Big Unit is one injury away from retirement. He started just 10 games in 2007. He is likely to get 10 million + in today's market. I think you go with someone with more upside. Pettitte has always been overpaid IMO. Last year he was the fifth highest paid pitcher in baseball! Meanwhile he ranked 65th in ERA, 33rd in strikeouts, 25th in wins, etc. In terms of money versus production, he may be one of the most over-rated pitchers in history. He only has six seasons with an era under 4 (one is at 3.99). During his two 21 win seasons he had run support of 5.6 and 6.88 per game.
    2008-12-10 12:53:13
    254.   bferb
    Mike DiGiovanna of the L.A. Times has the Nats willing to offer ten years at more than $20MM per and the Orioles willing to do nine years also at at least $20MM per year.

    Here comes the Angels strolling down Mannram lane...

    2008-12-10 12:53:17
    255.   scareduck
    247 - Wrong way: See Bonds, Barry. Shoving prenup in front of wife day of wedding with ultimatum and no review by counsel.

    Wow, that's harsh. And, in addition to the usual problems ballplayers have with marriage (a divorce rate that has to be around 60-70%, just about guaranteed cheating, etc., etc., etc.), the take-it-or-leave-it prenup. What a charming fellow.

    2008-12-10 12:54:02
    256.   LAT
    Bellagio Buffet. And people here were worried that Frank was running out of money.
    2008-12-10 12:54:29
    257.   cargill06
    248 What is the flaw in using the pythag record from last year (87-75), saying the team constructed as is will score just as many (maybe more) runs, and if we can replace the 4.23 ERA over 460 IP we lost, we can expect to win 87 games?
    2008-12-10 12:55:15
    258.   Xeifrank
    252. It's on my blog and been there for the last week.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 12:56:14
    259.   cargill06
    258 Could you please link me?
    2008-12-10 12:56:18
    260.   scareduck
    250 - So what are you arguing, Rob? That Lowe sabotaged himself by selling his house?

    Yes, that is exactly what I'm arguing.

    Somehow I doubt that Lowe is the only baseball player involved in a housing transaction this fall.

    How many of them sold their homes before hitting free agency?

    254 - to Frank McCourt: I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record ...

    2008-12-10 12:57:45
    261.   Xeifrank
    259. Click on the Dodger Sims link on Jon's sidebar.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-10 12:58:50
    262.   Jon Weisman
    260 - What is the Yankee front office going to care more about - whether the Dodgers made a contract offer to Lowe, or whether Lowe is in escrow?
    2008-12-10 12:59:07
    263.   LogikReader
    I checked the rates for the Bellagio Buffet. $30?! Plus it didn't fare well with Chowhound users

    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/448830

    The Wynn Could have been much better. If they left it up to me, I'd go with the MGM Grand Buffet. I loved their food... it was a true winner.

    What is your favorite Las Vegas buffet if you have one? I still think Circus Circus is tops for breakfast. Mmmm... little donuts.

    2008-12-10 13:01:24
    264.   trainwreck
    Harrahs was alright.
    2008-12-10 13:02:38
    265.   trainwreck
    No Vegas buffets are worth it unless you don't want to do anything for a few hours will you are in a food coma.
    2008-12-10 13:02:50
    266.   trainwreck
    *while
    2008-12-10 13:02:55
    267.   GMac In The 909
    Everyone sure seems testy today.
    2008-12-10 13:03:54
    268.   scareduck
    262 - Are you saying that Scott Boras (or whoever is Lowe's agent, I'm not sure) always tells the truth about who has bid on a particular free agent? Because I'm pretty sure that's not true.
    2008-12-10 13:04:15
    269.   Jim Wilson
    The Rio Seafood Buffet if very good. Bellagio is alo very good. MGM has good breakfast choices IMO.
    2008-12-10 13:04:20
    270.   mwhite06
    260 The same situation happened in New York last year with A-Rod buying Shaq's house in Miami after he had opted out of his contract with the Yankees. Despite that fact, A-Rod still managed to negotiate and execute a new contract with the Yankees.
    2008-12-10 13:04:28
    271.   GMac In The 909
    263 My favorite Vegas buffet is the tequila bar in Bally's.

    What? That's not a buffet? It sure seemed like one to me.

    2008-12-10 13:05:17
    272.   Jim Wilson
    And yes...I make the buffets work for me!
    2008-12-10 13:06:41
    273.   Jon Weisman
    268 - That's not what I'm saying at all.
    2008-12-10 13:07:35
    274.   cargill06
    261 Thank you.

    Missing 460 IP from last year...

    Signed pitcher- 190 IP 3.79 ERA
    Kershaws additional workload- 70 IP, 3.99 ERA
    McDonalds additonal workload- 150 IP, 4.68 ERA
    Elberts additional workload- 50 IP, 4.14 ERA

    That equals a 460 IP at 4.15 ERA. No rhyme or reason to those numbers, just giving an idea of what it would take to better thos missing innings.

    2008-12-10 13:07:59
    275.   Big Game
    The Rio used to be a big hit. Nowadays, if I'm in Vegas, I'm eating at Bouchon
    2008-12-10 13:09:53
    276.   Disabled List
    267 Sabathia signed with the Yankees, everyone's paranoid about Manny signing somewhere else, and we now have ironclad evidence that Ned Colletti is an incompetent buffoon.

    Yeah, you could say we're a little snippy today.

    2008-12-10 13:18:01
    277.   scareduck
    270 - nobody would take seriously the idea that A-Rod was going to move to Florida, though, given the financial status of either team. But selling or buying a principle residence in a major-market city ... well, now ...

    273 - but you want me to believe that such transactions have little or no effect on negotiations. I just gave an example of why they have, at least, some effect.

    2008-12-10 13:20:00
    278.   GMac In The 909
    276 I wish some good news would break for all of us, like Loretta passing his physical or something.
    2008-12-10 13:21:11
    279.   Tripon
    The neck injury that Pacman Jones suffered in the last Cowboys game may be career threatening.

    Adam Schefter of NFL Network is reporting that the neck injury suffered by Cowboys cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones Sunday could end his career.

    2008-12-10 13:22:31
    280.   cargill06
    172 Boras likes your line of thinking.

    In a radio appearance on WFAN, via MetsBlog, Jon Heyman said that the Mets are interested in bringing back lefty Oliver Perez, but the two sides are "still far apart on the dollars." He went on to say that Perez and agent Scott Boras are seeking five years and around $70MM.

    2008-12-10 13:26:37
    281.   Jon Weisman
    277 - Rob, if my original comment in 185 doesn't do it for you, I've got nothing else.
    2008-12-10 13:26:47
    282.   mwhite06
    277 Derek Lowe made $10MM last year and is selling a house for $5MM. To put that in perspective, that would be the equivalent of a family who made $200M last year selling a $100M condo. The econonomics of the super-wealthy simply does not jive with our personal finances--- these guys like A-Rod and Derek Lowe could cut a check for $5MM house and use it as a storage bin.
    2008-12-10 13:27:14
    283.   trainwreck
    Jeter is the captain of Team America for WBC.

    Lame.

    2008-12-10 13:29:28
    284.   Marty
    The Bellagio buffet may be expensive, but it's probably the cheapest meal you can get at the Bellagio.
    2008-12-10 13:29:50
    285.   Tripon
    283 Jeter will wear that C proudly... to a 2nd round exit.
    2008-12-10 13:30:13
    286.   trainwreck
    Furcal is meeting with the A's again.
    2008-12-10 13:30:14
    287.   wronghanded
    Realistically aside from Manny, whats the best we can do this offseason? Regardless of the intrigue in guys like Sheets, Perez and Burnett (all overrated IMO) Lowe still seems to be the best option out there. Will signing Furcal to a 3+ year deal block DeJesus? I just don't see too many possiblities to improve our team significantly. This year might be better spent saving $$$ and making some real noise next offseason.
    2008-12-10 13:31:06
    288.   bferb
    280 Well fortunately in this case, with the 3 max contract limit Colletti seems to have, we won't have to worry about overpaying for him. I can't imagine what team would give Perez $14 Million per for 5 years. That'd make him a top 10 paid pitcher I think (in average salary per year)
    2008-12-10 13:33:54
    289.   fanerman
    283 He's always been Captain America to me.
    2008-12-10 13:36:38
    290.   bferb
    287 Well what we do with our rotation? Bring back Odalis Perez? :)
    2008-12-10 13:38:44
    291.   trainwreck
    Offer Ben Sheets a shorter contract for a lot of dough.
    2008-12-10 13:41:31
    292.   MC Safety
    291 Aka The Ned Special.
    2008-12-10 13:42:32
    293.   Eric Stephen
    286
    Raiders took all of last weekend off. Nice to see they are well-prepared.

    http://tinyurl.com/5ettqg

    2008-12-10 13:42:53
    294.   trainwreck
    292
    True. I have never complained much about the Andruw or Schmidt deals, because I thought they made sense at the time.

    Of course, that was before we found out about Schmidt's injury.

    2008-12-10 13:43:59
    295.   bluegold
    I thought the Ned Special was offering a lot of dough to a player who can't/don't perform.
    2008-12-10 13:44:37
    296.   trainwreck
    293
    Not like practicing would do much for them anyways. Raiders are an embarrassment to humanity.
    2008-12-10 13:47:04
    297.   oshea2002
    I've completely given up hope on the Raiders until Al is out of the picture. And I'm pretty sure there's only one way that is happening.
    2008-12-10 13:47:16
    298.   Eric Stephen
    296
    Raiders are an embarrassment to humanity

    That's an excellent summation.

    2008-12-10 13:47:42
    299.   Eric Stephen
    297
    Me too.
    2008-12-10 13:48:14
    300.   bferb
    287 Just glanced at Cot's free agents following '09. Doesn't look like the players are there to make a lot of noise, especially at positions at which we have holes, other than maybe Holliday or Jason Bay assuming we don't sign Manny.
    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2008-12-10 13:50:24
    301.   trainwreck
    Everyone who is under 40 and follows the Raiders should realize Al needs to die.

    And I have no issue saying that, because Al is not exactly a good person.

    2008-12-10 13:52:22
    302.   silverwidow
    Giants are interested in Penny.
    2008-12-10 13:52:48
    303.   Kevin Lewis
    Speaking of legal forms:

    Does anyone know how to make up a basic release of liability form for computer repair. I do it on the side, and this next client is making me want to have one...and I know I should too.

    2008-12-10 13:52:58
    304.   oshea2002
    301 - Rome said it best - "It ain't turning around until the old man is horizontal."
    2008-12-10 13:56:50
    305.   wronghanded
    300 Holliday is an intriguing player, if he puts up good to great numbers for Oakland next season, we should offer him a contract he can't refuse.
    2008-12-10 13:58:25
    306.   Disabled List
    287 Now that Sabathia is off the market, it seems to me that the best-case scenario for the Dodgers this offseason is to re-sign Manny, Furcal and Lowe. In other words, bring back the exact same team that got steamrolled by the Phillies in the playoffs.

    And right now, even the chances for that are dimming.

    2008-12-10 13:58:28
    307.   Bob Timmermann
    303
    I believe you said you live in Pasadena. If you go to the Main Library over by City Hall, they should have reference books with copies of legal forms in them. You can get a template for one and then just fill in the blanks.

    Try looking for books about the law and small business or the law and independent contractors.

    2008-12-10 13:58:35
    308.   cargill06
    A source who spoke with Angels owner Arte Moreno downplayed suggestions from other teams that the Angels are contemplating meeting Boras' 10-year, $200-million price tag for Mark Teixeira. The Angels are "remaining patient" on Teixeira, the source said. But he said Moreno had laid down "very, very definitive parameters" for signing Teixeira. And a $200-million deal wouldn't appear to be one of them.

    The same source said the Angels have zero interest in Manny Ramirez.

    2008-12-10 14:00:28
    309.   blue22
    295 - Which could easily describe Sheets. McCourt would have to have a lot of trust in Ned to let him throw another 3/$40M or 2/$30M deal at a known injured pitcher.
    2008-12-10 14:01:13
    310.   trainwreck
    303
    Robert Shapiro would like you to use legalzoom.com, where he puts the law back on your side.
    2008-12-10 14:01:20
    311.   Kevin Lewis
    307

    Thanks Bob

    2008-12-10 14:01:40
    312.   bferb
    305 I agree I've always liked his game and he has always crushed us whether in LA or COL. The only real intriguing player to me from that crop is Brian Roberts, but 2B is apparently DeWitt's job for now.
    2008-12-10 14:01:48
    313.   Disabled List
    304 Dude, please stop quoting Jim Rome. I stopped listening to him 10 years ago for a reason.
    2008-12-10 14:01:52
    314.   trainwreck
    We could try something with Smoltz.
    2008-12-10 14:01:53
    315.   Eric Enders
    307 Or if you're, you know, lazy, you could just mimic someone else's.

    http://www.rockymountaincomputer.com/repairsignin1.html

    2008-12-10 14:07:38
    316.   wronghanded
    314 I would rather take several short-term risks on guys like Johnson, Smoltz, Prior etc. than give Perez an $80 million contract. Load up on good, old SP's on the downside of their career and hope they can combine to equal at least one decent pitcher.
    2008-12-10 14:09:10
    317.   Daniel Zappala
    The market for Teixeira is very depressing. 10 years at $200 million?
    2008-12-10 14:09:26
    318.   Kevin Lewis
    315

    Yikes, that is detailed

    2008-12-10 14:14:00
    319.   oshea2002
    313 - haha, I still enjoy Rome, been listening for over 15 years. I still think he's better then most sports radio right now, and is light years better then any local LA sports radio show.
    2008-12-10 14:14:08
    320.   trainwreck
    Come on, Red Sox. Bring back Lowe. Let us get the high draft picks!!!
    2008-12-10 14:17:27
    321.   trainwreck
    Ooo, Cardinals are after Lowe. That is even better.
    2008-12-10 14:19:53
    322.   CanuckDodger
    BA says that for the Rule 5 draft tomorrow there is buzz around Dodgers' reliever Jordan Pratt. He was in San Berdoo this year and he throws hard, but he has poor control. 67 walks in 69 innings to go along with 80 K's. We took him in the 5th round in 2003, one round before we selected Matt Kemp.
    2008-12-10 14:20:25
    323.   Eric Stephen
    320
    I'm on board with that, as long as Boston stays away from Tex.

    If the Yankees sign Lowe and Sabathia (and no other Type As), the non-sandwich compensatory draft pick will be something like 40-50 picks lower than if Lowe signed somewhere else (bottom 15, of course).

    2008-12-10 14:20:38
    324.   Harold M Johnson
    Just thinking out loud, but is now the time for the Dodgers to jump into the Peavy sweepstakes? It seems the price for Peavy has declined drastically. Just for fun, who would you give up to the Padres for Jake Peavy?
    2008-12-10 14:20:38
    325.   blue22
    320 - So the Yankees are the worst-case landing spot for Lowe with regards to draft pick compensation, right? Unless the Red Sox (or Angels) sign both Tex and Lowe?

    We should be rooting hard for the Yanks to top the Braves offer for Burnett then. C'mon Steinbrothers, Burnett's the one you want. Lowe's a flake and can only pitch in the NL.

    2008-12-10 14:23:43
    326.   wronghanded
    324 DeJesus, McDonald, Wade. I bet this deal has more talent in it than anything the Cubs are offering.
    2008-12-10 14:23:49
    327.   trainwreck
    322
    I thought the Trailer Park Boys special was okay. I was disappointed that they used the last episode as basically a lead-in to the next film.
    2008-12-10 14:24:11
    328.   Disabled List
    325 I'm pretty sure the Angels wouldn't have to surrender a draft pick to themselves if they signed Teixeira.
    2008-12-10 14:25:02
    329.   wronghanded
    326 Heck you can add Pierre +14 mill towards his contract.
    2008-12-10 14:26:29
    330.   trainwreck
    327
    It was also silly how obvious and simple Lahey's plan was, but no one expected it.
    2008-12-10 14:27:35
    331.   Eric Stephen
    325
    The worst case semi-realistic scenario would be the Yanks signing CC Lowe & Manny, because then the non-sandwich picks received by the Dodgers would be a 2nd & 3rd rounder.

    Next worst would be NY signing CC & Manny, coupled with Boston signing Tex & Lowe. Then the Dodgers would get two 2nd rounders instead of two 1st rounders.

    2008-12-10 14:27:35
    332.   blue22
    328 - Uh, right. Good point.
    2008-12-10 14:28:11
    333.   trainwreck
    324
    Elbert, Hu or DeJesus, one or two prospects not named Lambo.
    2008-12-10 14:31:55
    334.   CanuckDodger
    330 -- They have so over-done Lahey's drunkeness that it is not the least bit funny to me anymore.
    2008-12-10 14:31:59
    335.   bferb
    324 I'd try Paul, Elbert or Wade, and DeJesus or Hu
    2008-12-10 14:33:12
    336.   Tripon
    Its looking more and more likely that Lowe is going to sign with a team that already gave its first rounder to a higher graded Type-A FA.
    2008-12-10 14:34:53
    337.   ToyCannon
    KROQ has a WBC ad going. I don't recall ever hearing a Dodger ad on KROQ. The announcers are lame but it has a cool ending. Looks like they are going to promote this big time.
    2008-12-10 14:36:08
    338.   oshea2002
    W/o going to a hard cap, they need to make the draft pick penalties stiffer. Ie - if the Yankees want to sign everyone, they have no picks in the first 3-4 rounds for like 2 years.
    2008-12-10 14:38:00
    339.   ToyCannon
    324
    If I'm Depo I'd want McDonald(flyball pitcher, perfect for Petco), DeJesus(replace Greene), and Scott Elbert.
    I'd counter with LaRoche, Santana, and Meloan.
    2008-12-10 14:39:32
    340.   Jon Weisman
    Loretta deal is official.
    2008-12-10 14:39:36
    341.   Tripon
    Hah! Special Yankees rules.

    I'd tweak it that if a team signs multiple Type-A FAs, and already gave the first rounder away, the next team receiving instead gets two comp picks between the first and 2nd round instead of a 2nd and comp.

    2008-12-10 14:42:44
    342.   ToyCannon
    336
    Phillie might be in the mix.

    Latest has the Royals as hot for Furcal with Moore asking his owner to allow him to make a good offer. Would Furcal want money or the chance to win? I like the Royals but the odds of them contending during his fours years would be high. Unless they of course keep finding free talent like Soria and Aviles.

    2008-12-10 14:42:57
    343.   Tripon
    Funniest rumor at the moment.

    4:38pm: Chipper Jones popped onto Dave O'Brien's blog under the handle U Kno Who (unless it's an imposter), mentioning that Smoltz is irked by the link to the Mets and isn't going anywhere.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

    2008-12-10 14:44:25
    344.   StolenMonkey86
    I'm disgusted reading this, and frustrated that Dodgerblues' spam filter made it harder for me to vent my frustrations through feedback.
    2008-12-10 14:44:32
    345.   bferb
    339 If I were Depo I would want that too especially since that would be far better than what its looking like they're going to get from the Cubs/other teams in this multi-teamer

    Two reporters have now agreed on this per MLBTR:
    Lowe is not on the verge of signing. He does have offers in hand from the Yanks and Phillies, with the Mets and Red Sox in talks. The Brewers made contact but are considered a long shot. Edes says Lowe's desire to return to Boston has been overstated. Edes says the two offers are in the four-year, $65MM range, and a fifth year could clinch it.

    2008-12-10 14:45:29
    346.   Tripon
    342 Money. A player like Furcal will always have value as a player to be traded later to a contender for prospects. Its one of the reasons why a team like the Royals should sign good, high priced free agents, even if the team is still not contending. To be able to move a pitcher like Gil Menche or Furcal for two or three players that can help your team later on could have enormous value.

    The other side is that the Royals also signed bad players like Guillien.

    2008-12-10 14:48:29
    347.   Harold M Johnson
    It does seem like the Dodgers can offer better players then what's been put out there for Peavy already, plus it doesn't sound like most people would be upset to lose those players when getting Peavy in return. SO is there any chance the Dodgers do it?
    2008-12-10 14:52:02
    348.   silverwidow
    Dodgers are interested in OMAR VIZQUEL!!!!

    Per TJax.

    2008-12-10 14:52:04
    349.   ToyCannon
    347
    Canuck would be upset, I'm not sure if we want that. I'm not a big fan of Peavy, I hope he breaks down, so I'd rather he do it somewhere else.
    2008-12-10 14:52:49
    350.   Tripon
    347 No, because San Diego would still want a inter-divisional tax on any players Los Angeles would give up.
    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2008-12-10 14:53:49
    351.   fanerman
    348 Well that one makes sense on so many levels.
    2008-12-10 14:54:47
    352.   GoBears
    Yeah, I can't see the Padres trading Peavy within the division, especially not to the Dodgers. Certainly not for any reasonable price.
    2008-12-10 14:54:56
    353.   bferb
    348 The news and rumors in Dodgertown just keeps getting worse...
    2008-12-10 14:56:15
    354.   oshea2002
    348 -Loretta, Omar, Blake, etc. Gentlemen - we have become the San Francisco Giants. All we need now is The Unit or Jaime Moyer to round out the staff, and after Manny walks, 2 years for Moises Alou. And of course a camp invite for Scott Ericson.
    2008-12-10 14:57:06
    355.   ToyCannon
    350 352
    Depo has stated many times that he's not afraid to trade within the division and then went and moved Shawn Green to the Diamondbacks. Peavy is another caliber player but I don't think he cares if gets what he wants for him.
    2008-12-10 14:59:35
    356.   Tripon
    355 Its Kevin Towers I'm worried about. Even if Depo has to sign off on player acquisitions, Towers is still the point man for the Padres on any Peavy talks, and Towers wants everything and more from the Dodgers.
    2008-12-10 15:00:10
    357.   CanuckDodger
    349 -- No, you definitely don't want me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.:)
    2008-12-10 15:00:32
    358.   bferb
    I can't believe Im actually saying this, but I think I might rather have Berroa than Vizquel. If we are going for virtually no offense and thinking about Vizquel for his defense, why not just play Hu?
    2008-12-10 15:03:34
    359.   Tripon
    358 Because Visquel is 20 years older than Hu, and we can't give any young player a break. The goal is to set as many road blocks as possible against your young players to succeed, and then act astonished when said young players fail.

    If we're actually serious about Visquel, then why didn't we make a run on Casear Izutris? At least Izutris didn't bat below .220 last year.

    2008-12-10 15:04:33
    360.   Harold M Johnson
    350 Aren't the proposals people mentioned here big upgrades over what's (reportedly) been offered by the Cubs? Or is it not enough of a difference to placate Towers?
    2008-12-10 15:04:35
    361.   Tripon
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2008/12/angels-mulling.html

    Shakin says the Angels are planning to offer Manny a two year deal.

    2008-12-10 15:04:56
    362.   trainwreck
    Steve Phillips, okay stop laughing, said that the Cubs are trying to work a three-way deal with the Phillies.

    Phillies get DeRosa
    Cubs get Peavy
    Padres get Vitters, Pie, Jason Marquis, Carrasco, and Jason Donald.

    2008-12-10 15:05:42
    363.   Big Game
    347 I'd think the Padres would like to see him leave the division if they trade him.
    2008-12-10 15:06:44
    364.   Tripon
    360 Towers can smell that he can get more from the Dodgers because they can offer more. The Braves kinda have a similar problem, where they made the trade for Texieria, and gave 4 good prospects away because they could.

    Heck, the Dodgers gave away Santana and Meloan away for Blake, just because they could do it.

    2008-12-10 15:07:41
    365.   Tripon
    362 That seems decent. The Padres could always flip Marquis later on.
    2008-12-10 15:08:26
    366.   Jon Weisman
    359 - A week ago, Jackson said Juan Castro was back in the picture.

    Seriously, why do we have to react to everything so strongly?

    2008-12-10 15:08:40
    367.   ToyCannon
    362
    Now that is a deal the Padres should do.
    2008-12-10 15:08:59
    368.   Harold M Johnson
    362 Would the Cubs be paying Marquis salary?
    2008-12-10 15:09:14
    369.   regfairfield
    DePo trying to get Pie? I'm shocked. Shocked.
    2008-12-10 15:09:26
    370.   Andrew Shimmin
    Maybe Vizquel would be the backup catcher.
    2008-12-10 15:10:10
    371.   blue22
    362 - Carrasco and Donald seems like a steep price for DeRosa, unless the Phils really don't trust Donald for the 2 months of the season to replace Utley.
    2008-12-10 15:10:13
    372.   ToyCannon
    366
    On the same day the Yankee's sign CC, we get rumors of Omar, only the strongest could resist the urge to vent.
    2008-12-10 15:11:08
    373.   Eric Enders
    Hopefully the Vizquel flirtation is just a negotiating tactic with Furcal.
    2008-12-10 15:11:16
    374.   bhsportsguy
    369 I don't think so, at least not from what I heard in Vegas.

    366 I think "interested" is defined as someone seeing two people talking on their way back from the buffet.

    2008-12-10 15:12:13
    375.   tjdub
    366 We could liken this off-season to a horror movie when the music is playing. The pavlovian response is to jump at anything, whether or not it's actually frightening.
    2008-12-10 15:13:06
    376.   bferb
    That is gross overpayment for DeRosa, especially when DeRosa will be a bench player after two months
    2008-12-10 15:13:58
    377.   Jon Weisman
    366 - Except we've been venting already all morning. It still doesn't explain why the rumor is taken seriously and not ignored.
    2008-12-10 15:15:48
    378.   trainwreck
    I would assume they want DeRosa at third.
    2008-12-10 15:16:07
    379.   Tripon
    376 DeRosa would be a super-utility player. He can play RF, or LF too. And I guess 3rd. The Phillies will find DeRosa enough at bats though out the seasons, with 3rd base, 2nd base, and LF still questions marks for them.
    2008-12-10 15:17:04
    380.   blue22
    376 - Yeah, I don't know much about the Phillies system, but I'm pretty sure those are far and away the Phils two best prospects. For Mark DeRosa. Said Steve Phillips.

    Something is amiss.

    2008-12-10 15:17:42
    381.   Bob Timmermann
    Venting is so 2004.
    2008-12-10 15:17:58
    382.   trainwreck
    Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley to Phoenix for Diaw, Raja Bell, and Sean Singletary.

    Breaking news on Sportscenter.

    2008-12-10 15:18:24
    383.   regfairfield
    To be fair, Mark DeRosa did out VORP Ryan Howard this year.

    Who predicted he would be the bargain signing of the decade?

    2008-12-10 15:18:39
    384.   ToyCannon
    I thought they wanted him to play LF after Utley came back.

    377
    Out of 377 comments less then 5 jumped on the Omar rumor.

    2008-12-10 15:19:49
    385.   bferb
    For the Phills to do that would be like us trading McDonald and DeJesus for DeRosa. Would anyone on here advocate that?
    2008-12-10 15:20:28
    386.   ToyCannon
    The Suns will be shorthanded tonight.
    2008-12-10 15:20:28
    387.   Harold M Johnson
    I imagine (professional journos correct me if I'm wrong) that this how these rumors work.

    TJax: Hi Ned
    Ned: Hey, I've got a minute what's up?
    TJax: If you can't sign Furcal, what are you other options?
    Ned: Non-descript generic GM-speak
    TJax: Omar Vizquel is a free agent, is that someone you would consider?
    Ned: Omar's a great player and would be a good addition to any club.

    Voila, your daily Vizquel to the Dodgers rumor.

    2008-12-10 15:21:53
    388.   Jim Hitchcock
    366 , 377 , 381

    ...and it's making Jon talk to himself :)

    2008-12-10 15:22:47
    389.   Andrew Shimmin
    Let the record reflect that though I didn't ignore it, I didn't take it seriously either. If playing footsy with Vizquel makes Furcal nervous, I hope he's seeing the same shrink that Jon hopes Jones is seeing.

    It could make Berroa's heart beat a little faster. . .

    2008-12-10 15:22:49
    390.   blue22
    385 - McDonald and DeJesus is our "Peavy package". I'd be disappointed if all it landed was Mark DeRosa. And I like DeRosa.

    And from what I can tell Donald/Carrasco might be better than DeJesus/McDonald.

    2008-12-10 15:22:50
    391.   Harold M Johnson
    I imagine (with zero actual understanding of how this all works) that this how these rumors play out:

    TJax: Hi Ned
    Ned: Hey, I've got one minute to chat, what's up?
    TJax: If you can't sign Furcal, what are your other viable options?
    Ned: Non-descript generic GM-speak
    TJax: Omar Vizquel is a free agent, is that someone you would consider?
    Ned: Omar's a great player and would be a good addition to any club including the Dodgers.

    Voila, your daily Vizquel to the Dodgers rumor.

    2008-12-10 15:23:10
    392.   bferb
    All this venting talk reminds me of the Coors light commercial "Lets Vent!"
    2008-12-10 15:23:51
    393.   Harold M Johnson
    I apologize for the double post, my browser is going nuts. Sorry all.
    2008-12-10 15:23:57
    394.   Eric Enders
    377 While I'm pretty much on your side in the holy war against rumormongering, well... sometimes rumors do come true. And there's no real news this time of year, so for many, faux news is better than no news. And it's probably asking too much to ask that rumors be absolutely and completely ignored.

    And, let's face it, Colletti wanting Vizquel is a highly believable rumor given Ned's history. So much so that dozens here speculated on that possibility during the past year even before it became an official rumor.

    2008-12-10 15:24:01
    395.   fanerman
    381 You mean by 2005 it was already "so last year"?
    2008-12-10 15:24:02
    396.   Tripon
    385 Phillies are a better team with fewer holes to fill, and they already signed their best players sans Howard to long term deals. And they had a hard time figuring out how to fit players like Donald into their system.

    The Dodgers think both McDonald and DeJesus are long time starters for the Dodgers. Big difference there.

    2008-12-10 15:24:54
    397.   trainwreck
    392
    My friend went out and bought a box of those thinking they were some new special beer. When all it does is make pouring better, which is pointless when people drink out of the can.

    I made fun of him.

    2008-12-10 15:25:59
    398.   ToyCannon
    390
    So then our baseball common sense says the rumor is false and that if there is anything to it more or less players are involved.

    However it is the 1st package I've seen headed to SD that would make it worthwhile for the Padres to pull the trigger.

    2008-12-10 15:27:38
    399.   cargill06
    If we're actually serious about Visquel, then why didn't we make a run on Casear Izutris? At least Izutris didn't bat below .220 last year.

    Omar hit .222 last year, does that affect the above statement???

    2008-12-10 15:28:41
    400.   Tripon
    399 Okay, around .220 =P
    Show/Hide Comments 401-450
    2008-12-10 15:29:00
    401.   Kevin Lewis
    397

    That confuses me on so many levels

    2008-12-10 15:30:43
    402.   Jon Weisman
    384 - Now come on, that's not fair. It's not as if the rumor was published at the start of the 377 comments.

    Look, if you guys have the right to vent on these rumors, I certainly have the right to vent about you venting.

    2008-12-10 15:30:44
    403.   bhsportsguy
    Generally, the media has one meeting with Ned each day, that meeting takes place towards the end of the day.

    Sometimes, if they have an event like the Maddux press conference, Ned may surprise them by taking questions there.

    There are lots of people floating around the Bellagio, agents, front office types, media of all kinds, it would be fairly easy for someone to come up with a story based on a misunderstanding or flawed logic.

    Some writers will not print/blog anything unless they get a confirmation from the team. I believe at least one of those writers covers the Dodgers. It is easy to believe that others do not follow that process.

    2008-12-10 15:31:27
    404.   bferb
    397 The point of the vent is to make it pour faster, not better, so their idea is you can get the delicious coors light down the hatch faster.

    Unfortunately Coors light is not delicious, but then again that could be a reason to get it down the hatch faster.

    2008-12-10 15:35:45
    405.   Indiana Jon
    I'm not going to vent about Omar, vent about venting, or go out and buy Coors cans with some vent on them. What I would like to vent about is Furcal. For the money, I would rather have Sheets. Manny and Sheets, my dream is still alive.
    2008-12-10 15:36:58
    406.   Tripon
    LAS VEGAS -- New York Mets Omar Minaya General Manager knocked down rumors that his team was contemplating deals with the Dodgers to acquire either Juan Pierre or Andruw Jones.

    "Pierre doesn't fit for us," said Minaya, whose outfield already includes soft-hitting left-hander Endy Chavez. "And Andruw, we'd have to create a spot for him."

    Cyclops: DREAMS DON'T DIE
    Onslaught: THE DREAM IS DEAD

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/

    2008-12-10 15:37:26
    407.   Eric Enders
    Well, call me greedy, but I'd like to have Manny, Sheets, AND Furcal. That would basically be maintaining the status quo from 2008, with Sheets replacing Lowe and Penny.
    2008-12-10 15:39:04
    408.   trainwreck
    Quick, Eric Stephen get to a TV!! Your fav, Amy Nelson, is on!
    2008-12-10 15:39:46
    409.   Indiana Jon
    407 If we spend that kind of money, then yes. I'll take Johnson too. I'm just trying to limit my expectations to our needs and I believe starting pitching is a bigger need than SS.
    2008-12-10 15:40:33
    410.   Bob Timmermann
    Now this is a vent:

    http://tinyurl.com/55upmo

    SFW

    2008-12-10 15:40:54
    411.   bferb
    It seems our best chances to dump Pierre would be to a team that at the least needs a leadoff hitter and speed. Like the White Sox or Reds. If we could get anything back, I'd be happy
    2008-12-10 15:40:54
    412.   ToyCannon
    405
    I'm surprised you like Sheets for us. Aren't you against the Rafy signing because of his health history with us or do you just think he's not very good?

    384
    I'm with Eric, it is hard to discount an Omar rumor considering Berroa was our SS for most of the year. One has always been a lousy player and one is now. It is not like Ned knows the difference between useful skills and useless skills.

    2008-12-10 15:41:37
    413.   cargill06
    According to MLB.com's Bill Ladson, the Nationals offered Tex an eight-year, $180MM contract. Dave Sheinin talked to a Nationals exec who said in general about the rumors, "Ninety percent of this stuff is pure fabrication."

    I though for a split second reading this he was going to pull, "Ninety percent of this stuff is false 100% of the time."

    2008-12-10 15:41:44
    414.   fanerman
    411 The White Sox always seemed like the best fit for a Pierre trade.
    2008-12-10 15:42:05
    415.   Indiana Jon
    412 I would send him to the Reds for two Skyline chili dogs.
    2008-12-10 15:42:35
    416.   Zak
    Something does not add up. I saw so many posts upset about Schmidt and how the Dodgers should not have signed him given what they knew. I totally agree with that and without being meloramatic, agree with the general sentiment regarding that disaster. However, by that same token, why are so many of us ready to jump on the Sheets wagon? I would like to have the healthy Sheets, but I am pretty wary about his injury history. Is it reasonable to believe that his arm has no pre-existing problems? We see from the Schmidt situation that someone can pitch ok one year, and still be carrying signs on huge problems to come. With Sheets, it's almost worse, because he couldn't even finish his year off last year. Why is he so attractive, especially to the same people bagging on the Schmidt signing?
    2008-12-10 15:44:02
    417.   Indiana Jon
    412 Neither really. The injuries do worry me, but I've been against resigning Furcal since before the back problems. I just think Furcal is way overpaid and I don't want to waste that kind of money on him.
    2008-12-10 15:44:03
    418.   Harold M Johnson
    this is by far my favorite vent:

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/ventcover.asp

    2008-12-10 15:44:05
    419.   trainwreck
    416
    Hopefully the Dodgers learned that if there are red flags during the physical than nix the deal.

    Sheets is much younger than Schmidt and some of his injuries are not that bad for a pitcher.

    2008-12-10 15:44:06
    420.   Jon Weisman
    406 - Score yet another one for Rosenthal.
    2008-12-10 15:45:09
    421.   cargill06
    Assuming CC pitches 230 innings this year, he would earn $100,000 per innning pitched. This means he'd make what Joba makes in a year after 4 innings pitched.
    2008-12-10 15:45:49
    422.   Zak
    416 I'm not picking on anybody, just generally wondering how comfortable people feel about Sheets. I know that I would like his talent on the Dodgers, but I would not be 100% happy with the signing. There are just too many reasons to worry here. In fact, I would call this signing a bigger gamble than the Andruw Jones signing, and probably on the same level as the Schmidt signing.
    2008-12-10 15:46:04
    423.   bferb
    416 Well we could always sign Sheets and get an insurance policy.... Oh wait
    2008-12-10 15:46:22
    424.   Indiana Jon
    416 Because his stats are pretty close to CC's at a much discounted price.
    2008-12-10 15:46:54
    425.   Zak
    421 But Joba will pick up some priceless eating tips.
    2008-12-10 15:47:08
    426.   LogikReader
    I am not on the Sheets bandwagon. I really feel like he's an injury waiting to happen. I still remember how he missed about a bunch of time in 2006 and 2007. He pitched 106 and 141 innings those years.

    When he's healthy, he's a terrific pitcher... but that's the thing... can we count on him staying healthy?

    2008-12-10 15:49:32
    427.   Eric Enders
    423 Serious question: Does a team's inclination to sue its insurance company decrease its likelihood of being able to get insurance on future signings? Or will the companies jump at easy money regardless of who's offering it?
    2008-12-10 15:49:53
    428.   Zak
    424 But, are they discounted? Isn't the discount just perceived because you are looking at total dollars. To use a extremely crude example, say CC will cost $100,000 for a 3.00 ERA for 230 innings this year and there is a 85% chance of that happening based on his injury and performance history. Is Sheets still a discount using all those categories at $10-12 million a year?
    2008-12-10 15:51:06
    429.   bhsportsguy
    427 If insurance companies didn't offer coverage to businesses that sued over coverage disputes, they would run out of customers really quick.
    2008-12-10 15:51:15
    430.   ToyCannon
    422
    I like Sheets because he's had a history of injuries but none of them have been the kind to disable a pitcher for a season. He is kind of like the Milton Bradley of pitchers. He will miss some time but when he pitching he's very effective. Plus I just like him but I can understand why anyone would be wary of signing him to an expensive contract.
    2008-12-10 15:51:21
    431.   El Lay Dave
    Should the sport coat Shimmin buys to go with his new Levis have a single, center vent? double-vent? This might work - it's single-vented. Yes, SFW.

    http://tinyurl.com/6f94jq

    2008-12-10 15:51:53
    432.   CajunDodger
    420
    How can he be proven wrong by quotes like Minaya had and be taken seriously by anyone (including his editor) the other 51 weeks of the year?

    I know that the Winter Meetings have become a place for some journalists to show off their sources/contacts, but when a GM comes out and calls what you reported complete crap, there really should be some sort of ridicule/backlash.

    There should be a baseball equivalent of TMZ for guys like Rosenthal.

    2008-12-10 15:51:55
    433.   Zak
    427 I have to think that one or five lawsuits will have no impact on their decision. If some team was a serial "suer" than I can see that being an issue... maybe. But in general, if they feel like it's easy money, regardless of team involved, they will bite.
    2008-12-10 15:53:16
    434.   Indiana Jon
    428 Yes
    2008-12-10 15:54:03
    435.   silverwidow
    In describing Mark Loretta, Ned used the word "character."

    I know, BIG shock.

    2008-12-10 15:54:36
    436.   silverwidow
    Are the Dodgers a screenplay?
    2008-12-10 15:54:42
    437.   El Lay Dave
    If Tony Jackson can make his principle residence in Phoenix and be a Dodgers beat writer for the LA Daily News, Derek Lowe can sign with whichever team and live wherever Carolyn Hughes desires.
    2008-12-10 15:54:53
    438.   trainwreck
    More breaking news on Sportscenter.

    Yankees offer AJ Burnett a 5-year deal.

    2008-12-10 15:55:26
    439.   Eric Enders
    426 I don't understand why staying healthy all year is a prerequisite. Let's go ahead and stipulate that Sheets is guaranteed to get injured every year, and will pitch somewhere between 106 and 141 innings per year.

    Would not 106-141 innings of really, really good pitching be worth a lot? Why does being hurt for significantly less than half a season cancel out the outstanding performance turned in the rest of the time?

    Sheets has always pitched well, even in his injury plagued seasons, and the 106-IP year is an outlier. He's got three seasons of over 200 IP and came within two innings of that in 2008. His injury problems have been overstated to an almost laughable degree.

    2008-12-10 15:57:40
    440.   wronghanded
    424 These numbers are not very close at all, and probably as important as anything.

    IP since 02:

    Sheets/Sabathia

    216.2/210
    220.2/197.2
    237/188
    156/196.2
    106/192.2
    141/241
    198/253

    For the record, I don't want Sheets AKA Schmidt part II.

    2008-12-10 15:58:11
    441.   El Lay Dave
    436 Fargo. Not sure what the wood chipper represents. William H. Macy as Ned? Ya sure, you betcha.
    2008-12-10 15:59:11
    442.   Jim Hitchcock
    410 I prefer fumarole. It has more zing.
    2008-12-10 15:59:44
    443.   Eric Enders
    406 , 420 , 432 : Those quotes by Minaya don't prove a thing, any more than the original rumor by Rosenthal proved anything. When a GM opens his mouth you have to assume he's lying through his teeth unless you have good reason to believe otherwise. Not to mention which, publicly expressing an interest in Pierre and Jones, who are under contract, would violate baseball's tampering rules.

    Remember last year when Minaya kept saying we're not going to fire Willie Randolph, right up until the hour they actually fired him?

    I'm not saying Rosenthal's rumor is true. I think it's not. But the quotes by Minaya are beyond meaningless.

    2008-12-10 16:00:25
    444.   ToyCannon
    A year ago they try Hughes / Kennedy / Joba and now they are buying CC and AJ. Talk about about a 180 team direction. It will be easy to root against them again.
    2008-12-10 16:00:55
    445.   bferb
    438 That is great news if it is true. I doubt the Braves will top that and that will probably take the Yanks out of the Lowe sweepstakes
    2008-12-10 16:01:02
    446.   Indiana Jon
    440 Really? As important as anything? If that's all that is important, then there are much cheaper options.
    2008-12-10 16:01:14
    447.   El Lay Dave
    440 So there's a fear that contracts for Schmidt and Sheets would turn to, uh, the same thing in the long run?
    2008-12-10 16:02:06
    448.   Indiana Jon
    444 I wonder if they will make Hughes available.
    2008-12-10 16:03:30
    449.   Jon Weisman
    443 - True. You're right.

    It's all meaningless.

    2008-12-10 16:04:31
    450.   Tripon
    448 But not Kennedy, Kennedy can't seem to do no wrong even when he claimed he didn't have any bad outings on nights he gotten shelled.
    Show/Hide Comments 451-500
    2008-12-10 16:04:37
    451.   El Lay Dave
    339 "If I'm Depo I'd want McDonald(flyball pitcher, perfect for Petco), DeJesus(replace Greene), and Scott Elbert.
    I'd counter with LaRoche, Santana, and Meloan."

    That made me LOL for real.

    2008-12-10 16:05:26
    452.   Eric Enders
    Yet another reason to hate the Schmidt signing: It gives false ammunition to those who are wary of Sheets, when in fact the two are not all that similar. Schmidt was good pitcher with a history of arm problems and steadily decreasing velocity. Sheets is a very good pitcher with a history of non-arm-related injuries.

    Schmidt is not comparable or equivalent to Sheets. It's like using Andruw Jones as a reason not to sign, say, Carlos Beltran.

    2008-12-10 16:05:55
    453.   Tripon
    http://tinyurl.com/5utg7o

    For more Schimdt, and insurance business. Comment 19 in this thread has info on kinda what the Dodgers and the Insurance company will be fighting on in court.

    2008-12-10 16:07:05
    454.   scareduck
    436 - Alien. Every time you think you're safe, something comes bursting out of the (war)chest.

    439 - but he's getting older, and his injury history is going to get worse, not better, over time.

    2008-12-10 16:07:08
    455.   Andrew Shimmin
    I still don't really understand three rolled to two button coats.

    And the orange component of my wardrobe is fully and permanently covered by my Griddle March Madness major award.

    2008-12-10 16:07:20
    456.   wronghanded
    446 If you're unable to pitch your ERA+, K/9, whiff % etc. all mean nothing. I wouldn't be heartbroken if we got Sheets but it seems to me we need an innings eater this year. With Kershaw, McDonald, Stults all prepared to see several starts next season, our bullpen is going to be slave driven. A guy like Sheets may be lights-out when he pitches but doesn't seem like a good fit for our current needs. That said, if the price is right go for it.
    2008-12-10 16:07:23
    457.   Tripon
    452 Carlos Beltran has an amazing contract. You could even argue that its below market now for a player of his caliber.
    2008-12-10 16:09:38
    458.   Eric Enders
    441 "Fargo. Not sure what the wood chipper represents. William H. Macy as Ned? Ya sure, you betcha."

    The woodchipper. You insert healthy young trees like Edwin Jackson, Carlos Santana, Andy LaRoche, and you get back useless little pieces.

    2008-12-10 16:11:28
    459.   trainwreck
    Gammons says if Nationals can't get Teixeira they will offer big money to Manny.
    2008-12-10 16:12:39
    460.   ToyCannon
    459
    That is not happening, Boras bought Pete a Latte to say that.
    2008-12-10 16:13:18
    461.   Tripon
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3761008

    Cransick says the Burnett offer is 5 years, and 91.5 million dollars.

    2008-12-10 16:15:35
    462.   Zak
    439 The fact that he has been able to pitch only half a season or so for the last few years is a sign, at least to me, that the problem might get worse, not remain status quo. I usually agree with your arguments, but this one does not pass the smell test. If someone is breaking down every year, it seems to me that a long term injury is more likelier than not.

    Also, without judging whether Sheets is a good signing or not, it is not unfair to say that as a Dodger fan, I will feel more wary about him than excited about him if we do sign him. And that is true even if he pitches into September, and we're heading into the playoffs, which is kind of what happened in 2008. That is how I will feel. I suspect that is what a lot of Dodger fans will feel. I don't think we'd be wrong.

    434 Our definitions of a discount are way off. It's best not to keep arguing that then.

    2008-12-10 16:16:24
    463.   ToyCannon
    We need another rumor, we can't end the day with the Omar rumor. BH, you are back in town, can't you make a rumor up for us?
    2008-12-10 16:16:36
    464.   trainwreck
    461
    Call him a Yankee.
    2008-12-10 16:17:30
    465.   Tripon
    463 For what's it worth, the Giants beat writer is also claiming the Padres are interested in Omar, and want to sign Corriera to a minor league contract.
    2008-12-10 16:19:23
    466.   Zak
    452 That's unfair because you could see a Schmidt like situation with Sheets developing and there is nothing to suggest that with Beltran. Whether you think it will happen or not, someone like Sheets has a higher probability of being a Schmidt like contract than Beltran does of becoming Andruw Jones. And please don't bring up Jones' five years BBF (before becoming fat) because than I have to look up comps to Beltran who did not tank like Jones did. :)
    2008-12-10 16:20:05
    467.   Kevin Lewis
    This thread is making me look forward to the weekend in Vegas. Man, it will be good to blow off some steam.
    2008-12-10 16:20:41
    468.   fanerman
    467 In other words... vent?
    2008-12-10 16:22:32
    469.   Harold M Johnson
    467 What's on the agenda for the weekend? Gambling? Golf? Shows? Fine Dining? Sports Book?
    2008-12-10 16:22:45
    470.   Eric Enders
    462 "The fact that he has been able to pitch only half a season or so for the last few years is a sign, at least to me..."

    The problem is, it's not a fact. It's not remotely a fact. Only once in his eight-year career has Sheets pitched fewer than 141 innings.

    Key points about Ben Sheets that must be emphasized:
    1) His injuries have never caused him to miss more than half a season, and that only once.
    2) He's really, really good even in the seasons when he's been hurt.
    3) A player who gives outstanding performance for three-quarters of a season is preferable to one who gives mediocre performance for a whole season.
    4) He's significantly younger than the other options out there.
    5) Most of his injuries haven't been arm-related and there's really no reason to believe they'll continue indefinitely.

    He's sort of the J.D. Drew of pitchers.

    2008-12-10 16:24:38
    471.   Harold M Johnson
    470 He's sort of the J.D. Drew of pitchers.

    Is that supposed to be a positive thing? :)

    2008-12-10 16:25:07
    472.   Kevin Lewis
    469

    First, stop by Costco on the way for alcohol.

    Then,

    Gambling, Poker, games in the room, movies, food, hanging with the guys.

    2008-12-10 16:25:18
    473.   Andrew Shimmin
    Casey Blake is the Andrew Bogut of third basemen.
    2008-12-10 16:28:25
    474.   Eric Enders
    I thought Casey Blake was the Mark Eaton of third basemen.
    2008-12-10 16:29:23
    475.   Jon Weisman
    NPUT
    2008-12-10 16:29:38
    476.   JRSarno
    I love the Omar rumor. Can we hit the eject button on Colletti/McCourts? PLEASE? It's kind of painful to watch them "talk" and "do things" in the off-season.
    2008-12-10 16:30:14
    477.   Andrew Shimmin
    474- Can't be. I don't dislike Mark Eaton.
    2008-12-10 16:31:07
    478.   bhsportsguy
    458 I don't think you can say the Manny deal was a bad deal and regardless of what LaRoche and Morris do in their careers, it was the right deal to make.
    2008-12-10 16:31:25
    479.   CanuckDodger
    Now that Sabathia is gone my REALISTIC agenda for the rest of the Dodgers' off-season is as follows: (1) don't trade away any young players or prospects, and (2) make sure we don't lose our 17th overall draft pick. I would add "Don't sign any useless vets" but that would be part of an UNREALISTIC agenda. I can only hope the useless vets we sign won't block any young players, and if that is too much to ask, then at least not past 2009.
    2008-12-10 16:36:00
    480.   scareduck
    462 - If someone is breaking down every year, it seems to me that a long term injury is more likelier than not.

    Seconded. Is there any pitcher, anywhere, who has ever had a string of injuries like Sheets and got better? Based on Sheets' Rotoworld news history, here's some of the things that have afflicted him lately:

    + Tight/strained groin
    + Tight forearm
    + Triceps tightness
    + Blister*
    + A tear in the tissue adjacent to his right index finger tendon*
    + Pectoral muscle soreness
    + Right shoulder tendinitis (x2)*
    + Upper back muscle tear† ...
    + ... contemporaneous with a strained lower back
    + Viral infection*
    + Back surgery (herniated disc repair)
    + Inner ear infection (missed one start)
    + Sheets reported a sore back in spring training that lingered through the first half of 2003.

    * = 15-day DL stint
    † = 60-day DL stint

    2008-12-10 16:39:01
    481.   Marty
    Didn't Nick Saban say there was no way he was going to Alabama?
    2008-12-10 19:48:28
    482.   berkowit28
    If you're planning on buying a bigger, more expensive house than the one you have now, then the perfect time to sell your present house and buy a new one is when prices are low, like now. The same percentage increase means less actual extra cash needed now.

    If the bigger house you buy is worth 1.5 times the one you sell, then selling your little mansion for $1 million and buying a bigger one for $1.5 million is going to cost you a lot less than it would have last year, or a couple years from now, when your current house is worth $2 million and the new one $3 million.

    Jon said the same thing in about three words, but some people didn't seem to notice.

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