The bullpen lacks real depth, and if Tracy created a four-man rotation, fatigue would set in early, especially when the Dodgers go two or three weeks straight, and things would go from bad to worse.

Hopefully Tracy will put more faith in his starters-not Grady Little faith, but enough to get by in the fifth or sixth after a couple earned runs-and maybe the Dodgers can pick up a fifth man by summer.

That said, I'm not in favor of pulling the starter in the fifth, unless it's an absolute disaster, and I wouldn't really like pulling the starter in the sixth, either. We should try for six reasonable innings from our #4 and #5 pitchers (I'd up it to seven for our #1, 2, and 3 pitchers). Bringing in the bullpen in the fifth and sixth might or might not win more games for us now, but I fear that it would mean that they'd be worn out by the postseason. And I do believe that this team will be in the postseason.

In sum: Our #4 and #5 should go six innings when possible, bring in whatever combination of pitchers works best for the seventh, and of course close out with Brazoban and Gagne. The top of the rotation, obviously, has a longer range possible, from seven innings to complete games - I say let them go to seven barring complete meltdowns. Pull them at the first sign of trouble in the 8th or 9th, use judgment in the 7th (ack, did I just say that?).

vr

Xei

I would love to see both Game Over the elder, and Ghame Over the younger used in less precisely defined roles. Why save our best releivers (and arguably our best pitchers period) for situations that may or may not occur in the last couple of innnings of a given game. How about using them to squash rallies mid-game, when tied, or even god-forbid when we're a run or two behind with a chance to come back. Why save these guys for what may happen in the 8th or 9th when you can use them in pressing situations earlier.

And speaking of the elder Game Over, I hope now that we're paying him Rivera level money Tracy is willing to use him for more than an innning at a time. But then again I've never understood the logic of having a "closer", and I guess my bias is obvious.

I've had several latecomers asking about the TEAM DEPO shirts. I'll take new requests until Friday and see if we have the minimum for a new batch.

Ordering info: http://tinyurl.com/8ez6z

PITCH COUNT VERY IMPORTANT
# OF INNINGS PITCHED NOT IMPORTANT

When thought about for a while this should answer your questions about when pitchers should be pulled and why.

This is why managers like Jim Tracy leave starters in too long. It's some kind of Victorian test of mettle. 'Let's give the boy a chance to pitch his way out of the adversity he's created. Then we'll find out what kind of stuff he's made out of, by golly.'

Aren't there alternatives that a creative mind like DePo can consider? Why can't a manager plan ahead to use three pitchers for three innings each, in a combination designed to maximize advantages? Or, why not pursue the four-man rotation as Jon suggests, and keep eight pitchers in a bullpen that will be worked constantly? Why not designate Yhency or Gagne in a new role as pre-9th inning closers, who are brought in to A) come in at the maximum moment of danger to protect the lead, such as a bases-loaded situation; or B) to be deployed not necessarily in the 9th inning, but in whichever late inning it falls that the opposing team's best hitters are coming to bat.

What stands in the way of this is the notion that certain pitchers "own" certain parts of a game. If you designate someone as the closer, and then don't use them in the 9th inning to close out a close game, they are taught to feel slighted. Ditto a starter who is showing no signs of fatigue. If a manager came out to get a guy who's pitching a shutout in the fifth inning because he wants a different matchup, most starters would have a tantrum. Why? Who's running the team?

I think a lot of the way in which pitchers are used is based on tradition and Pavlovian conditioning. The Dodgers are the perfect team to think anew about pitching.

First, I bet that at least half the time the reliever doesn't do much better than the starter. This also has the effect of undermining the starting rotations confidence.

Second, even if there is no doubt the starter is done, you have to find the right reliever for the spot that night. Especially, if like Alou, you use your reliever on a spot basis so often. ,i.e. bring Eyre in to face one batter, then Herges to face another and then Tyler Walker for a third and its only the sixth inning. Alou, for better or worse, never seems to care if a reliever is going well. Doesn't matter how they are pitching just bring them in based on the match-up. Thus, even if Herges were doing great (I know, I know but this is a hyopthetical) Alou would still replace him if he were not comfortable with the match-up. Thus figuring out who to use is only half the battle, when you have used everyone in your bullpen everyday for the last week and you have to figure out whether they are too tired.

Third, when you start using the bullpen liberally, you require two or three pitchers to warm up everytime, even if they ultimitaly don't go in. Further taxing the pen.

Finally, we all know how much a game can change from inning to inning, like most things in life, if you shot your wad too early your done.

This is too rambling and its late, Tracy has made some mistakes leaving pitchers in too long, but on balance (over the years) he generally makes the right call and when we need it most we have lots of fresh, strong arms to choose from.

From the game story, it was Millwood who asked to come out.

In other news, did anyone notice that the Padres are now tied for second?

I sympathize with Jon's thinking here. And with other posters who feel that teams do themselves a disservice by straitjacketing pitchers into defined roles. Starters have never liked to leave games (complete games used to be quite normal, not rare exceptions, no matter what the score). But thank Tony LaRussa for creating THE CLOSER, as well as the SETUP MAN, and when he could, THE 7TH INNING GUY. Probably the LOOGY as well. This is now Gospel. In SD, where Bochy is as much an automoton as anyone, it's Linebrink-Otsuka-Hoffman, like clockwork. Agents love it this way. The quite logical idea to bring your best reliever in in the highest leverage situation died with Goose Gossage, and it's also why Goose isn't in the HoF (at least not yet). Saves and win credits determine managerial decisions. Stupid, but true. Tracy can still learn to pull his starters earlier (as long as he gives them the requisite 5 to be in a position to win) but if he were to start bringing in Gagne to put out fires (remember when we called them "firemen?") in the 7th, Scott Boras and Bill Plascke would team up to have him killed (and then insulted in the Times).

http://tinyurl.com/dyh63

However, I love the idea of using Yhency as a smokejumper once Gagne is back. If there comes a point in the game where a real fire needs to be put out let Yhency do it. Why not use your best, or second best, arm when you need it most? If you don't need him then you still have him for the eighth. We could use Gagne the same way if he were up for it. But if it were tomorrow and Tracy used Yhency in the sixth to stop a rally and another reliever blew a save in the ninth I think Tracy would be crucified. If we wait until Gagne is back we have the luxury of two stoppers to use as we wish.

Along the same lines, I don't think it would be disasterous to bring in a pitcher who is due to start a couple days later to pitch to a couple of batters. In other words, last night in the fifth you bring in Penny to pitch to Pujols. Use your best arms when you need them most. For the record, I doubt I would have pulled Perez then. But Odalis should not have thrown him anything close to the plate. I'd take my chances with the bases loaded and anybody who isn't Albert Pujols hitting with one out.

However, I've never been less surprised by a home run than I was by Pujols' second one last night. It just seemed extremely obvious, based on past confrontations and also the body language of both players, that Pujols was going to take Odalis deep there.

That's almost a situation where I'd do something silly like bring in a reliever to pitch to Pujols while stashing Perez in left field. Odalis had no chance against Pujols whatsoever.

Tracy has proved willing to pitch Gagne multiple innings, and to bring him in non-save situations (i.e. tie games late at home), but I don't recall a single example of him using Gagne as a fireman. I like Langhorne's suggestion of using Ghame Over as a fireman, which perhaps Tracy can be persuaded to do, but even this might be a bit too much out-of-the-box for Trace.

Although I'm a big supporter of Tracy, the sort of revival of the fireman or the four-man rotation being proposed by Jon and by posters in this thread is not the sort of thing that plays to Tracy's strengths. Tracy's very good at massaging egos, developing kids (with the singular exception of his mishandling of Choi IMO), and he's competent with bullpen management within the confines of LaRussa style specialization, but I think we're expecting too much of him to think that he'll go to a four-man rotation or revive the fireman.

WWSH

The new batters on the list: Kent, Drew, Phillips, Valentin, Ledee, Choi
with 515 AB, 39 2B, 21 HR, 94 RBI, .285 AVG, .393 OB%, .495 SLG

Old batters: Beltre, LoDuca, Finley, Green, Cora, Hernandez
with 568 AB, 20 2B, 16 HR, 80 RBI, .246 AVG, .293 OB%, .373 SLG

New pitchers: Lowe, Erickson, Wunsch, Brazoban
with 97 IP, 90 H, 38 ER, 30 BB, 55 K, 4-6 W-L, 3.53 ERA

Old pitchers: Ishii, Lima, Nomo, Mota
with 102 IP, 102 H, 66 ER, 52 BB, 56 K, 2-9 W-L, 5.82 ERA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The improvement in OPS is 222 points, .888 vs .666. I looked up the walks, and the new guys have 87 BB vs. 37 BB for the old guys.

As for the pitchers, they chose to include Wunsch, but not Schmoll, Carlyle or Houlton (Their combined ERA is 6.25 with 36 IP).

It's a bit infuriating when you look at their last 10 or so games:

Home vs COL:
Three one-run wins, 5-4, 2-1, 8-7

At STL:
W 8-3, 5-4, 6-5, L15-5

Last night at CIN:
W6-5 in 13 innings; Wagner and Graves blow a 4-run lead in the ninth. Hopefully this ends any notion that Graves should pitch in high-leverage situations ever again.

Of their last seven wins, six have been by one run. They could easily be in fourth place.

Davey Johnson, of course, used to pull the move-the-pitcher-to-LF trick in the late innings. And I had that same thought about Odalis yesterday. Probably would have worked, too, even if, say, Sanchez walks Pujols (come on Odalis, how hard is it to throw ball four!!), he still can get Rolen out. Then Odalis comes back. I might do that in Strat some time, now that I'm thinking about it more.

Its kind of the opposite of the old Las Vegas tourism slogan - "I'll sleep when I'm at work."

Langhorne, this is brilliant. Not as much the concept as the marketing.
If Tracy explained Yhency's new role using exactly that word - smokejumper - fans would instantly understand what he was getting at in using a top-notch relief pitcher in the middle innings.

Substitution patterns that mirror those of other major sports (NBA, NFL, NHL?) is all well and good in theory. Except in baseball, once you've made the substitution, you don't get to rotate guys in and out of the lineup/bullpen.

Stashing OP in left field against Pujols might save you that 3 run homer. But what does that do exactly? Odds are that Pujols is still gonna hit that homer, and you're left with a starting pitcher who knows that the manager's confidence in him is shot. And no pitcher is going to want to play for the Dodgers if the manager is gonna run him off the rubber everytime the boogey-man comes to bat.

We've heard "The Mantra" more than once:
"Tracy puts his players in position to succeed." But in certain situations, the chance of success is going to be slight, not because of any managerial decision, but because the opposition's skill is so great. That doesn't mean that you shrug it off and assume that the games over in the fifth, but if OP is our #2/3 guy, then you've got to go with him.

So don't make the best managerial decision because it might hurt someone's feelings and that might in turn damage their confidence and might lose you some games later on?

If the Dodgers had scored 5 runs last night I don't think many people would have a problem with Odalis' use.

"If the Dodgers had scored 5 runs last night I don't think many people would have a problem with Odalis' use."

I concur.

Yup, and it is readily apparent that Tracy lives by the dictum "Go with the horse that brung ya."

I don't think you have to go to an extreme to improve the bullpen/roster usage, just fine-tuning a bit...

There have been several games recently where the Dodger starter has pitched into the later innings, having allowed three runs or less. (I refuse to call this a "quality start," which I think should be at least six innings and an ERA of less than 3.00 in that game.) It isn't unreasonable to expect the Dodger lineup to score more than two runs through seven innings. The starters are pitching well enough to win these days, but not getting enough run support in many of these games.

I think Tracy is also saving the bullpen. There are going to be many times -- during the heat of summer and in the last six weeks -- where the starter will pitch well but will be tired by the sixth inning, and Tracy will need to use more of the bullpen even on days when the starter performs well.

On the other hand, at least one of these relievers will go down to the minors when Gagne returns, so it might not be necessary to save that particular arm. And Alvarez's arm has not been taxed in the first five weeks, so he should be fresher. You could argue that under those circumstances, it makes sense to use the pen a little more. I also like the way Tracy used Alvarez for long relief several times last season. He should face more righties and save Wunsch as the lefty specialist.

As far as the situational stuff, in my opinion, Tracy goofs more often by not pulling the pitcher for a pinch hitter than he does in leaving the starter in until he gets shelled. There have been several times in the sixth and seventh innings when I thought Tracy shouldn't bat the pitcher and he did it anyway. I think that has more of an outcome on the game than leaving the pitcher in for a few too many batters.

If you pull the starter at the first sign of trouble, you are telling him, "Don't make too many mistakes, or you'll get yanked. That is, unless we can't score today. Then, you need to pitch mistake-free." This is a bad approach on many levels.

Letting a pitcher work out of his own problems is a psychological effect that I think cannot be overcome. You'd have a hard time selling it to starters.

That being said, I'd rather see the 7 guys in the bullpen get used day-in, day-out for the last 7-9 outs of the game (assuming it isn't a blowout in either direction). There are some good arms in the 'pen (some great ones as well, and the kingfish is returning soon) and I'm sick and tired of seeing this waste of the entire 25-man roster.

I was thinking of marketing at least to the degree that you'd have to convince people that this is a good use of a top reliever. But the Dodgers have had such success with the whole Gagne phenomenon I would think they'd be drooling to recreate it. So picture this:

Sixth inning, two on, one out. Tracy goes out to the mound. The starting pitcher walks off and Trace is standing there holding the ball when blaring out of the stadium sound system comes the opening base line from "Smoke on the Water" as the bullpen gates open. Yhency comes in, strikes out the side and the ovation dies out as fans rush to buy every shouvenir they can find.