Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hershiser on Hold
2005-11-16 22:26
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Apparently, the Dodgers' phone communication did not improve when Paul DePodesta left town. According to the Dallas Morning News, Orel Hershiser hasn't heard from the Dodgers in more than a week.

If he doesn't get a call Thursday, he should scribble over the "I [heart] Dodgers" on his Pee Chee folder and keep his tender mercies back in Texas.

* * *

Is there a fair explanation for why the Dodgers have gotten pilloried for their 2005 season while the San Francisco Giants have gotten a complete writeoff for theirs?

There's this inconsistent application of "what have you done for me lately" thinking that seems only to apply to people within the Dodgers. Meanwhile, no one asks, "What's going on in San Francisco?" "Oh, nothing. It's just that Bonds was hurt." As if Bonds missing time was somehow less predictable than J.D. Drew missing time.

The Giants have gone from 100 wins to 75 wins in two years, and are seemingly less prepared for the future than Los Angeles. How long do they remain a model team? How long does reaching the 2002 World Series carry a glow?

Comments (223)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-16 22:59:51
1.   Bob Timmermann
I will give a prize to anyone who can make sense of this passage from Mr. P in his column about Colletti.

"About J.D. Drew, whose injury history clashes with Colletti's philosophies?"

How does an injury history clash with someone's philosophy? Are some people morally opposed to injuries? Are some GMs never going to sign anyone who has been injured?

Should I just go to bed?

2005-11-16 23:02:28
2.   Jon Weisman
Yes, the implication is that the assistant GM who oversaw Bonds, Alou, Snow, Schmidt, et al has no room for players who might get hurt.

I'm not even sure Colletti would buy into that assertion.

2005-11-16 23:12:45
3.   Bob Timmermann
It's a well-known fact that no other player in the majors has had injuries other than J.D. Drew.

It's not called the DL for disabled. According to the terms of the Basic Agreement, it's called the Drew List.

Sheesh...

So there is a Plaschke column, where he admits he likes Colletti personally, Mike Downey admits the same in the Chicago Tribune.

I'm a nice guy. At least one sportswriter in America likes me. Maybe even two.

2005-11-16 23:23:03
4.   Jon Weisman
Sportswriters are the music makers. And sportswriters are the dreamers of dreams.
2005-11-16 23:37:45
5.   Eric L
Can we give Plaschke an award for coming up with mind-numbing ideas?

Who taught guys like Plaschke, Mariotti, and Bayless to be numbskulls when they were coming up? I want someone to blame!

2005-11-16 23:38:36
6.   scareduck
4 -

I write the songs that make Lasorda sing
I write the songs for teams that don't have rings
I write the songs that get the GMs fired
I am Plaschke, and I write the songs

2005-11-16 23:40:03
7.   scareduck
How long does reaching the 2002 World Series carry a glow?

A lot longer if you win it, apparently.

2005-11-16 23:43:28
8.   Bob Timmermann
And the weird thing is that it seems that Arte Moreno is getting credit for 2002 when he didn't even own the Angels.

Now that's good PR.

2005-11-16 23:51:09
9.   dzzrtRatt
The national media let the Giants skate, but not the locals, and especially not the local blogs and sports talk radio. They tend to blame Sabean and Colletti as a unit for the sorry state of the franchise. One faction hates that the front office traded away so many of the good young pitchers that were being hyped for years. Another faction points out that many of them flopped with other teams. But the Nathan/Bonser/Liriano deal is despised. The likely departure of Scott Eyre is another gloomy prospect. The national media might believe that all will be well in Giantsland when Bonds returns, but I don't think local fans buy that.

Steve would enjoy the names Colletti gets called. Every possible way you could join Colletti's name with Neifi Perez'.

2005-11-16 23:52:33
10.   dzzrtRatt
8 like an old boss of mine used to say, "I'd rather be lucky than good."
2005-11-17 00:08:34
11.   slackfarmer
9 I can see where the SF locals are coming from. Can you really expect a year older, roidless Bonds to carry your team?

On a hopefully unrelated topic, anyone else worried that Gagne in 2006 is not going to be quite the guy he was in Game Over years?

2005-11-17 00:39:57
12.   al bundy
I am certain that Colletti is our savior. Henson in the LA Times said today that Ned has quite a mess on his hands that he will need to clean up. It's a good thing that Ned has done such a great job with the Giants and is leaving them in perfect working condition. (Insert logo for dripping sarcasm here.) Ugh. We have had so much disappointment with the Dodgers. Here's hoping it doesn't continue but between McCourt(s), Lasorda, Colletti, and the LA Times sports page, we are up a creek without a paddle. The sky is falling!!!
2005-11-17 01:04:42
13.   Romyrick
11. Wow an out in the open roid post about Gagne, hehe.

I say the Dodgers go all out on this traditionalist's thing. 8 Neifi's out in the field 5 Russ Ortiz's in the rotation and 72 fingers in the bullpen.

If you guys want to check it out, i've created a new blog.

http://zedwords.blogspot.com/

2005-11-17 02:04:43
14.   dzzrtRatt
From this morning's NY Times:

"To do my job and do it well, I need to tune out criticism," Frank McCourt said. "I can't be persuaded by being pulled and tugged in different directions."

Cut to a storefront in Van Nuys. The door opens.

"I am Frank M."

"Welcome. The first step is to admit you're powerless over Plaschke, and that your life has become unmanageable..."

2005-11-17 06:23:24
15.   scareduck
8 - considering the Angels' 2003, it's not so surprising. One of his first acts was releasing Kevin Appier, who was owed at least half of about $14M. Turning in a losing season after 2002 and then coming back to win the division in 2004 made a huge difference. In my mind Arte's one of the best owners if not the best owner in the game now; he's not a big ego like Steinbrenner, he's willing to put money on the field (within reason) AND he's got the do-re-mi to do it, too. That's not to say that Bill Stoneman always uses it wisely (Orlando Cabrera? To some extent, Steve Finley?), but Arte runs circles around Frank.
2005-11-17 06:29:39
16.   SMY
At the end of his column, Plaschke claims he has thought Colletti should be the Dodger GM for a long time, and wrote about how he was jealous of the Giants front office in a 2001 column. I must have missed all those "Hire Ned Colletti" columns over the past 4 years. Anyway, I did a LexisNexis search and the only Plaschke+Colletti hits that came up were his columns from the past couple days. But I don't think the LA Times has their archives online before 2004, since all the pre-2004 hits for "Plaschke" come up reprinted in some West Virginia newspaper.
2005-11-17 06:29:47
17.   scareduck
14 - you think they put him on the e-meter, too?
2005-11-17 06:49:16
18.   scareduck
16 - Newsbank comes up with one from July 4, 2001:

"I hate that the Giants have such front-office depth, one of baseball's smartest guys--Ned Colletti--is only their assistant general manager."

2005-11-17 07:04:06
19.   SMY
18 Yeah, that's what he said. Too bad, I was hoping to catch him in a lie. Still, it's not like he's been beating the Ned Colletti drum all this time.
2005-11-17 07:36:35
20.   Colorado Blue
All we are saying is give Ned a chance...

Look, his moves in SF may look pretty suspect, but let's remember 2 things:
1) He was not the head honcho. He may have had philosophical issues with Sabean that he had to compromise on more than one occasion.
2) The SF philosophy the last couple of years has been "win now while Bonds can still play". Bonds is such a force that SF had no choice but to attempt to win now... and don't think Bonds didn't have anything to say about it.

I guess what I'm saying is that the paradigms between SF and LA are quite different and Colletti is probably not only aware of this, he may just use it to his (our) advantage. Time will tell and I'm inclined to wait-and-see before hitting the panic button.

2005-11-17 07:52:03
21.   scareduck
20 - at the same time, he reported how much freedom he had as an AGM to pursue trades and other things that were usually the purview of the GM. I agree with you broadly, but it's something to keep in mind.
2005-11-17 08:01:12
22.   SMY
Or we could just bash him now, and if he succeeds, pretend we never said anything bad about him in the first place. It works for everyone else.
2005-11-17 08:07:47
23.   Colorado Blue
21 - Agreed, except, as I stated, he was probably given well-defined parameters. For example, get anything that will help us now and sell the farm to do it.

22 - You sly devil :)

2005-11-17 08:12:25
24.   SMY
20 By the way, I agree with the wait and see approach, but I have to say that I watched the press conference and read all the articles and I'm not terribly impressed so far. And I'm REALLY tired of hearing about how he grew up poor in Chicago. The writers are spending like half their column inches on that fact. We get it -- he's the anti-DePodesta and he didn't go to Harvard.
2005-11-17 08:39:44
25.   dzzrtRatt
20 Right, in my opinion. It's not encoded in his DNA that Colletti must trade prospects for old players. He had a situation in San Francisco--a superstar player on a mid-market team who consumed a quarter of the payroll, but could carry the team offensively and draw a crowd. In that situation, you pursue a win-now strategy.

I always thought Sabean was as much a master of the July-deadline dealmaking process as Beane. The Giants seemed to look at the entire season as an opportunity to make shrewd trades--which cost them prospects, but got them 90+ win seasons year after year. Their FA signings were less consistently successful, but the Giants were forced to mostly go after second-tier talent--the Vladdys and Sheffields were beyond their reach. At the second-tier, the chances for disappointment are much higher.

The Dodgers chess pieces are in a completely different alignment. This guy doesn't seem like he's so dumb that he can only build a team one way. The problem is not him; it's who he works for.

2005-11-17 08:45:21
26.   Steve
DePodesta wants to hire Terry Collins, and he's fired. Ned Colletti wants to hire (wait for it) Jim Fregosi, and they're holding parades.

Jim Fregosi would be a whole lotta worse than Jim Tracy.

2005-11-17 08:45:25
27.   Colorado Blue
25 - The problem is not him; it's who he works for.

Let's hope he knows he only answers to the McCourts... if he thinks he works for Plaschke, Simers, et. al. then we're in even bigger trouble; hopefully he's adept at managing the MSM. Feed 'em enough to keep them content. They're as smart as goldfish so a few fluffy flakes now and then and they'll be happy.

And, if he can manage to relegate Lasorda to the background...

2005-11-17 08:47:09
28.   Colorado Blue
26 - He wants to hire Fregosi? Is that an immutable fact?
2005-11-17 08:48:34
29.   Steve
So says Mason & Ireland after their interview with him. I only heard Mason this morning doing news updates saying that Fregosi was the lead candidate. Coupled with the Hyplaschkrit's rantings.
2005-11-17 08:49:48
30.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
9 Another perspective on why the Jints get away from a fall from grace more easily, and one I continually point out when pressed:

There has never been a World Champion San Francisco Giants. Never. Not. One. Time.

There have been only three NL Champion San Francisco Giants. Just. Three.

By comparison, the Dodgers came to Los Angeles and won the hearts and minds of the town by brining four NL Pennants and three World Championships in their first 9 years. Added three more pennants by to close out the first 20 years. Added two more World Championships in the next 10 years.

My expectation as a Dodger fan is the Dodgers will win it all. Expectations of Giants fans is that they will be disappointed. (This was fed continuously for 8 or so years where they dangled 90+ win seasons in front of the fans and just missed or exited from the playoffs in the first round).

2005-11-17 08:54:05
31.   SMY
26 Tim Brown's manager article also mentioned Colletti was going to talk to Collins. Imagine if he decided he wanted to hire Collins too.
2005-11-17 08:54:07
32.   regfairfield
Wasn't that season where the Giants won 103 games and missed the playoffs great?
2005-11-17 08:55:31
33.   Bob Timmermann
I think Giants fans got used to the fact that their team finished nearly every year in the 1960s despite having Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Marichal and Perry.
2005-11-17 08:56:08
34.   gvette
24-- It's not like Colletti was forced to get his college education at some fly by night school that advertises on mid day TV.

Northern Illinois Univ. is a good school with students mostly from the north (upper middle class) suburbs of Chicago.

At least the Giants' farm system produced young players that other teams were willing to trade for, unlike the Dodgers until very recently. LaTroy Hawkins is no ones answer, but you'll grow old waiting for Jerome Williams to be a star.

Can't say I care much for how the Giants were constructed, and I care even less about Bonds, but they DID go to the World Series in '02, and they DID finish ahead of the Dodgers 8 of the last 9 years.

Brown's Times article puts to rest speculation about the return of Dusty Baker, and the candidacy of Ron Wotus.

2005-11-17 08:56:45
35.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Been in Yankeeland for a week, so I guess I missed all the fun.

I didn't see Colletti's press conference, but I've seen a few comments disparaging him for not saying much. Really, though, did you expect him to? The common approach these days seems to be to spew vague platitudes so as to avoid giving your enemies any ammo. Considering that the press ran his predecessor out of town, that might be a wiseplan.

And I'll remind you, DePo took much the same approach, as far as I noticed. I rarely saw him give an interviewer anything of substance after he came to LA.

2005-11-17 08:58:08
36.   regfairfield
34 Jerome Williams and David Aardsma. If Colletti had anything to do with that trade, I truly fear for the organization.
2005-11-17 09:09:53
37.   Michael Green
Thanks for the comments on my other post. By the way, while the mention of Fat Freddie Fitzsimmons brought back warm memories, I think Sal Maglie also played in World Series for both the Giants and the Dodgers. As to Vinnie possibly retiring, I'm not saying he's not allowed--but if he quit at the end of the coming season, it probably would look like he was fed up with the McCourts, too, or at least that's what Plaschke would say.

As to Colletti, it's the first day. We should do what so many didn't do for DePodesta: cut him some slack and give him a chance.

Now, help my memory. Years ago, someone asked the then-manager of the top farm club--the Albuquerque Dukes, or as Vin once called them in one of his greatest moments, the Albukookie Derks--why so many of the younger players who went up to the Dodgers didn't do that well. The manager blamed it on Lasorda. And I have to agree that if a young player came up and wasn't his type of guy or not quite ready (anybody remember his misuse of Pedro Martinez and John Wetteland?), Lasorda couldn't deal with him.

Now, that manager was either--drumroll, please--Kevin Kennedy or Terry Collins. I am almost sure it was Collins. And if so, I wonder if that played into the recent melodrama. If it was Kennedy, that might explain why he may be the best manager who hasn't managed lately.

2005-11-17 09:15:44
38.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
As for Plaschke's earlier reference to Colletti being one of the smartest men in baseball, I'm gonna go find a grain of salt to take that with. We've heard at how well Ned handles the media, so I'm thinking he just played Plaschke enough to get on his good side.
2005-11-17 09:17:46
39.   Bob Timmermann
37

I goofed with my note about Fitzsimmons, I was just looking at the list of players who played ONLY for the Dodgers and Giants.

In addition to Maglie, both Chief Meyers and Casey Stengel played in World Series for the Dodgers and Giants.

2005-11-17 09:18:17
40.   Bob Timmermann
I thought the smartest man in baseball was Alex Cora?
2005-11-17 09:19:45
41.   Steve
As for Plaschke's earlier reference to Colletti being one of the smartest men in baseball

This could, of course, be true, but it would be like asserting that Bill Plaschke is the best columnist at the LA Times.

2005-11-17 09:23:19
42.   Bob Timmermann
Terry Collins managed Albuquerque from 1983-88. Kevin Kennedy managed Albuquerque from 1989-91.
2005-11-17 09:23:28
43.   SMY
So let me get this straight. The argument against Terry Collins (aside from merely being associated with DePodesta) is that he was fired twice and the veterans hated him. Correct?

Collins' winning percentage as a manager was .506 and he never won a division, but did finish 2nd 5 out of the 6 seasons he managed. New front-running respected baseball guy Jim Fregosi's winning percentage is .484, he did win the division twice but only finished as high as 2nd one other time in his 15 seasons. Plus, he was fired 4 times.

I don't know how well Fregosi got along with his players. But since they finished 3rd, 4th, and 5th most of his years, I'm guessing not all that well. But he is 7 years older than Collins, so I guess he's seen a lot more baseball in his time (sarcasm). And he also won that last game. Oh wait, no he didn't, Joe Carter did.

2005-11-17 09:27:50
44.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
As to the possibility of Vin retiring, is anyone else thinking they'd rather see that happen than to see him lose his edge any more than he already has? I've noticed many more mistakes from him in the last few years: mispronounced names, misidentified players, etc. He's clearly lost a step.

I'm not saying he should hang it up anytime soon. But he's far and away my favorite sports announcer, and I just don't want to see him become a shadow of his greatness. I watched it happen with Chick, and I don't want my impressions of Vin to be similarly tainted.

There, I've criticized two LA broadcasting icons in one post. Let the floggings begin!

2005-11-17 09:33:32
45.   Bob Timmermann
44

You're a Dodgers fan, so you're allowed to gently criticize Vin. If you were an Angels or Giants fan, you wouldn't be.

2005-11-17 09:38:49
46.   Jacob L
44 Vin may not be at the top of his game, but he hasn't lost that much off his fastball. When the number 2 guy in the booth is getting the job done better, than maybe I'll agree, and we all know that's a long way from being the case.

Chick was a different story. For a while every player who touched the ball was Sedale Threatt.

2005-11-17 09:39:07
47.   molokai
I can understand youth getting impatient with Vinny but anyone of us who have had to deal with the same thing happening to our parents are more then happy to give Vinny some slack when it comes to mispronounced names, misidentified players, etc.
2005-11-17 09:42:23
48.   gvette
Problem for Collins isn't that he got fired (almost every manager is, Joe Torre was fired twice), but the spectacular flameout when he did get fired. In a closed community like baseball, labels are probably hard to shake.

Can't imagine that McCourt would go for Fregosi, though. Lot of irony in the Angels being led by Scioscia and Hatcher, while former Halo icon Fregosi is in Dodger Blue.

2005-11-17 09:42:41
49.   molokai
I lost interest in the Lakers when Chick passed away. I tried to blame it on Kobe but I no longer enjoy watching the Lakers and if I do I just put them on mute. When you listen to someone your whole life from the time your 10 they become a part of you. Having Chick describe Magic was Magic and if it had been Stu Lantz the thrill would not have been the same.
2005-11-17 09:43:13
50.   Bob Timmermann
But I do think Vin has a lot a bit off of his fastball and has to rely on offspeed stuff. Fortunately, he's lefthanded so he will able to get by on guile longer. Sort of like Jamie Moyer.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-17 09:44:28
51.   Bob Timmermann
Fregosi is not nearly as much of an icon in Anaheim as Scioscia is in Los Angeles.

As good as Fregosi was, the best thing he did for the Angels was get traded for Nolan Ryan.

2005-11-17 09:46:08
52.   molokai
So because two local radio hacks mention the name of Fregosi he's the frontrunner. Have Ireland and Mason ever actually broken a story?
At least McDonald with all his baggage can claim to have broken some big stories.
2005-11-17 09:46:12
53.   SMY
48 Yeah, but what happens if Colletti really wants Fregosi and McCourt doesn't agree? Does he get the axe too? You'd figure at that point McCourt would just hire whoever he wants to be manager as GM/manager so he wouldn't have to keep firing people who don't agree with him.

This is all facetious, by the way.

2005-11-17 09:47:07
54.   Xeifrank
McCovey Chronicles http://tinyurl.com/bsanh
has a blog entry about Colletti up. They seem rather lukewarm to his AGM skills. Here are a few entries:

- The only things I have to go on are his public statements, like this interview with Baseball Prospectus, and the results of his contract-fu. Based only on that, you can grab the Crayolas and start coloring me Not Impressed Pink.
-A strategy that seems common in Colletti negotiations is to offer one more year than the competition, hoping to quickly secure a deal. Frankly, just in terms of negotiating veteran contracts, Colletti scared the bejeepers out of me. Every offseason was a slow-moving slasher flick, with a three-year deal to Craig Counsell creeping up as you showered.
-As a Giants fan, it warms the heart to hear an incoming Dodgers G.M. saying he looks for "overachievers", and "character players who had something to prove."
-but you have to hope he approaches Dodger acquisitions by looking at "character", trying to get the guys with "something to prove", and trying to nab players like Neifi Perez because, "(Perez) knew how to play the game." Vague, meaningless aphorisms masquerading as legitimate talent evaluation? It makes me want to stare into Frank McCourt's eyes and say, "no backsies."
-The Giants have been successful during Colletti's tenure, and while it's tempting to ignore that as he ventures to the land of the unwashed Hessians, it has to be one of the boldest points on his resume. I have no idea if this is a good or bad move for the Dodgers.

2005-11-17 09:47:17
55.   molokai
Jamie Moyer - He could be our Kirk Rueter.
2005-11-17 09:51:37
56.   Bob Timmermann
I think Vin would identify more with a good Catholic "kid" like Moyer rather than Rueter. Although Vin always spoke well of Rueter during games. He usually spoke well of most of the Giants players. I'm sure Vin still wants the Dodgers to acquire Pedro Feliz.
2005-11-17 09:51:50
57.   SMY
The headline for Mark Whicker's column on the OC Register site is "Colletti's Roots Food for Dodgers". Is that supposed to be "Good" or am I just not understanding it? Either way, it's funny.
2005-11-17 09:52:38
58.   SMY
56 Good ol' Happy Pete.
2005-11-17 09:56:13
59.   Bob Timmermann
From Whicker's column:

"He is gregarious and outspoken. Unlike DePodesta, he will be in the clubhouse daily and nightly, taking the pulse."

I guess that's how their going to test for amphetamines next season.

2005-11-17 09:57:03
60.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Just to be clear, I don't think Vin is anywhere near needing to retire. He's still Ted Williams, and I expect he will also go deep on his last AB.

We can't expect him to go on forever, though. Nor should we want him to. That's all I'm sayin'.

2005-11-17 10:00:31
61.   SMY
Didn't Plaschke also say something about the pulse?
2005-11-17 10:00:56
62.   RELX
What is this nonsense about Fregosi? People hear something on the radio and all of a sudden, he's the frontrunner?? Why do people take these "rumors" and turn it into fact? Remember, after Depo was fired, Peter Gammons said it that Hershisher was going to be the GM, Valentine the mananger--had that turn out? And, even if it turns out to be Fregosi--which it won't--it aint much worse than picking Terry Collins!

And to 31--Colleti only said he was going to talk to Collins about remaining in the organization, not as a managerial candidate.

Based on Colleti's comments, i would assume the top managerial candidates are: Lee Elia, Jim Frey(is he dead? Shouldn't cost the McCourts much $ then), and Dallas Green. However, if we want to go all retro 80s, we have the perfect candidate in-house--Tommy Lasorda!

2005-11-17 10:01:34
63.   gvette
51-- Fregosi may not be big to the "rally monkey" generation of Angel fans

but;

To the long suffering Angel faithful, he WAS the face of the organization in its first 10 years;
1)six time All Star,
2)team captain (and surrogate Autry son),
3)the career leader in most offensive, categories when he got traded for Ryan,
4)first manager to win ANYTHING for the Angels

None of which has anything to do with whether he has any business being considered as Dodger manager.

2005-11-17 10:07:57
64.   Xeifrank
Another MSM hack chimes in on the Colletti hiring. This guy is from my small local paper that I don't subscribe to since they never paid me my $50 for winning their football pool contest 10 years ago!! vr, Xei

http://tinyurl.com/7sq7l

Here is the intro:
Expect commitment toward chemistry, not a spreadsheet. The Dodgers have clearly embarked on a new way of doing things --which happens to be the old way of doing things. Wednesday's introduction of Ned Colletti as the team's new general manager more or less completed the repudiation of the Paul DePodesta era. This means the Michael Lewis best-seller, a textbook on how things were done in baseball's stat-driven new age, is now no more relevant than, say, a Dodger media guide from 1968. Actually, the old media guide might be more relevant, because it, like the 50-year-old Colletti, represents old-school baseball values.

2005-11-17 10:08:46
65.   Steve
Why do people take these "rumors" and turn it into fact?

Because the inmates are running the asylum, and hiring Jim Fregosi would be crazy?

2005-11-17 10:17:52
66.   Eric L
64 Why the heck do the writers automatically give Colletti a passing grade in chemistry 101?

Do they forget that the Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent hated each other, yet they still made it to the WS?

2005-11-17 10:31:00
67.   GoBears
I'm just worried he'll find that veteran leadership he loves in Steve Finley. You know, the guy with all the Dodger tradition in his bat.
2005-11-17 10:35:26
68.   alexx
Is there some sort of Oakland A's guide I can read to familiarize myself with them? I've been a Dodgers fan for 19 years (assuming I was born one) and grew up in Echo Park, but since I'm living in Berkeley I figure I might as well become a fan of the local team (and I almost cried when I read about DePodesta's firing - the introverts lose another battle).
I have a friend who became an Angels fan when the Dodgers hired DePodesta. He told me he is now going to root for the Dodgers again. He gets really defensive when I make fun of Scioscia,
2005-11-17 10:40:30
69.   Romyrick
http://zedwords.blogspot.com/

Join me in a look into the future. I will show you why the Ned Coletti hiring is a good thing for your Los Angeles Dodgers.

Ned Coletti inherits a Dodger team that will win the western division in 2006. The other teams in the division stink and are getting older (although the Cameron pick up is a good one). The return of Eric Gagne, Odalis Perez and JD Drew will be tremendous.

Following the division championship the Dodgers will start to implode. JD the introvert will be traded for character reasons or if he has a good enough season, which I expect, he'll walk. He didn't help the Dodgers win the championship anyways; it was all the doing of the sparkplug Jason Repko. Speaking of Repko, he will get a Baldelli type contract making him your centerfielder for years!

Oh Joy!

Jeff Kent will either retire or walk; it will be mutual and very happy. What a good PR skills you have Mr. Coletti. I won't be so cliché' as to say he will be replaced with Niefi Perez but it will be someone with the ability to hurt you at many different positions. By this time Choi has already been long gone, which is a good thing because whichever former Angels first basemen we get will have character'd us into the playoffs. These are just a few examples of the decisions that will shape this franchise.

Luckily, this will send the Dodgers into a downward spiral for at least 3 years. It is possible that they lose 300 games. Attendance will plummet and the value of the franchise will drop. Forcing Mr. McCourt to get out before its too late.

This is where things start getting better.

Confirmed stat head and innovative executive Mark Cuban will step in and save the franchise. Cuban will immediately put the team back in the right direction. He will turn the reigns back over to Paul Depodesta. It will take Depodesta a year or two to get the team back in order, prompting the L.A. media to out do its typical ignorance. However, Mark Cuban provides the resilience the team needs to follow out Paul's plan.

The team then goes on to win 10 straight division titles and 4 World Series rings. By the time Paul Depodesta decides to retire, sabermetrics has become common practice. This leaves Depodesta's successor with little or no advantage over the other teams in the league.

2005-11-17 10:53:02
70.   SMY
62 Nobody's taking a rumor as fact. Except for Tim Brown, because he wrote in his Times article today that Fregosi was likely among the frontrunners.
2005-11-17 10:57:03
71.   Bob Timmermann
With the exception of the esteemed Rob McMillin and Matt Welch and Ross Newhan, who knows much about the Angels of the Fregosi Era. That's not a time the current Angels franchise looks back upon with a lot of fondness.
2005-11-17 10:58:50
72.   Marty
I always think of it as the Bobby Knoop era.
2005-11-17 11:02:53
73.   gvette
Hey, Knoop used to throw out the first ball for my Little League. Couldn't hit much but was scrappy. Kind of like a 60's Alex Cora.
2005-11-17 11:15:44
74.   Bob Timmermann
Fregosi does have his number retired by the Angels, but who knows what number that was without looking it up?

I had to look it up.

Fregosi is the only player to ever hit for the cycle in a game at Dodger Stadium.

2005-11-17 11:27:53
75.   gvette
Bob, what number do you think he'll wear for the Dodgers?

Got to run, and tend to my shrine for Rick Reichardt.

2005-11-17 11:35:15
76.   Bob Timmermann
Fregosi could wear his Angels number. No current Dodger is using it and it's not retired.

Of course, it's being used by one of the few coaches who didn't leave for Pittsburgh.

2005-11-17 11:36:08
77.   Jacob L
The Giants front office reminds me of the 90s Chicago Bulls. Reinsdorf and Krause would bring in a Paxson here and a Wennington there and believe all the clippings that called them geniuses. They literally could not wait to start rebuilding. It took years in the wilderness for it to sink in that, maybe, just maybe, the Bulls were not the model organization. Maybe having the best player in the world was a bigger factor than they thought.

The difference with the Giants is that they've been in no hurry to push Bonds out the door. In fact, they've known, up until arguably last year, that they've got to milk it while they can.

The similarity is that they think, based all the 90+ win seasons, that they've made all the right moves, and have got it all figured out. I've waited and waited for them to learn the hard way. I like Lance Niekro in the role of Eddie Curry. Now I'm worried that when the Giants get re-educated, that we, with Colletti, are along for the ride.

2005-11-17 11:43:47
78.   Bob Timmermann
Prior to the current coach wearing Fregosi's number, the previous owners of it have been an undistinguished lot: Bart Shirley, Tommy Dean, John Kennedy, Ken McMullen (his first term with the Dodgers), Larry Burright, Bob Lillis, Dick Gray, four different pitchers in 1950 (it must have been the 'extra' jersey), Jack Banta, Dixie Walker, Tony Lazzeri, Fred Frankhouse, George Watkins, Nick Tremark, and Clyde Sukeforth,
2005-11-17 11:46:24
79.   Jacob L
Is it 11, worn with distinction for the last 30 or so years by Manny Mota?
2005-11-17 11:49:18
80.   dzzrtRatt
68 Is there some sort of Oakland A's guide I can read to familiarize myself with them?

You mean like, "Moneyball"? That's a pretty good introduction. It's a little out of date--Chad Bradford and Scott Hatteberg are gone, as is this stat-geek who worked with the GM, who disappeared somewhere. But Nick Swisher's in it, and Beane's approach is still pretty much what it was.

2005-11-17 11:49:42
81.   Bob Timmermann
Indeed it is #11.

I doubt Fregosi could pry that number away from Mota. If he did, there would be a lengthy Plaschke column about Fregosi disrepecting Mota's history with the Dodgers. And Plaschke will write a long column about how much Fregosi meant to Angels fans when he didn't even live out here during the time that Fregosi played in L.A. and Anaheim.

And Mike Downey will write a column saying that Fregosi is a nice guy.

2005-11-17 11:52:17
82.   SiGeg
77 -- I can see that story, too. On the other hand, for a number of years recently the Giants kept winning more games than I thought they could, based on their rosters. Maybe it was just having Bonds that did it. Usually one player doesn't impact a baseball team as much as one player can impact a basketball team (for obvious reasons). But Bonds has a greater impact than any other player in baseball, so that could be case. Certainly the winning stopped last year when Bonds was not playing. Even so, I'm not sure that was it, and I'm not sure I want to give the credit to Baker/Alou either. So, maybe Colletti does know something about undervalued contributions from some kinds of players. We can hope.
2005-11-17 11:53:56
83.   Jacob L
81 So for getting the right answer, can I get some of your points from Humbugardy? No, I didn't look it up. I've been languising in the standings since I got a correct response having to due with Dave Roberts months ago.
2005-11-17 12:00:20
84.   dzzrtRatt
[64} "Wednesday's introduction of Ned Colletti as the team's new general manager more or less completed the repudiation of the Paul DePodesta era."--VC Star

Don't buy this for a second. The media needs an angle (as opposed to actually enlightening people), so here it is. But the real DePodesta legacy, as opposed to the caricature, is the team is no longer burdened by a bunch of bad contracts, and he resisted the temptation to spin off the emerging prospects for immediate gain. These were brave things for DePo to do, brave but foolish for his long-term survival; but Colletti will quietly thank him many times in the next four years.

I don't think it's fair, however, to judge Colletti as the antithesis of everything DePodesta allegedly stood for, just because some bad writers say he is. Maybe DePo was a poor communicator. But that's not a "Moneyball" principle, that's a character trait. The logic of this writer is that DePodesta's shyness discredits the use of statistics. Huh?

Just say no to lame sportswriters.

2005-11-17 12:07:29
85.   Jacob L
Building the farm system, and shedding bad contracts was pretty much Dan Evans' legacy as well. Setting aside Juan Encarnacion for the moment. Depo was just more ruthless about it e.g., having to swallow even one more year of Shawn Green was killing him. What distinguishes the 2 of them was Depos ability to fill holes off the scrap heap (Werth, Perez) compared with Evans' failed attempts at same (Houston, Rickey).

The combined work of our last 2 GMs left a situation that's fairly hard to screw up. That's something that either of them might want to mention in their next interview.

2005-11-17 12:08:41
86.   dzzrtRatt
63 I was a 15-year old Mets fan transplanted to Southern California when Fregosi got traded for Nolan Ryan. I remembered Nolan when was part of the great corps of young starting pitchers, Seaver, Koosman, Gentry and Ryan. Ryan was #4 because he was still kind of wild then. He used to soak his fingers in pickle brine because he threw so hard it raised blisters. I knew the Mets made a huge mistake trading him, and it's my recollection that Fregosi was a dud. I blame him for the Mets losing Ryan and getting basically nothing in return. It's unfair, but to paraphrase Nicholas Cage, what I look like, the Supreme Court?
2005-11-17 12:12:16
87.   Slipstream
The evaluation of Paul DePodesta's tenure as Dodgers' GM is something that will be ongoing over the next several years (at least). Of course it's not even remotely fair to him, since he didn't get a chance to complete the job, and the new GM will likely change course. But we should get a fuller picture of how smart his moves were over time. Remember, we're still finding out how bad Lasorda was as GM with each passing year.
2005-11-17 12:14:08
88.   Steve
Their manager having him bunt aside, the Pirates just bought out Jason Bay's arbitration for a song.
2005-11-17 12:18:20
89.   SMY
88 Hopefully it's just to make him more attractive so they can trade him for managerial favorites Phillips and Repko :)
2005-11-17 12:23:34
90.   das411
86 - Fregosi will never have to pay for a drink in Philadelphia ever again though. He deserves a lot of credit for managing a team that was picked by many to finish BEHIND the first-year Marlins to 97 wins and two outs away from a potential World Series Game 7. Worth noting that he did it with platoons in LF, RF, and 2B for most of the season, and it's been said that those 1993 Phillies were really one of, if not the first true Moneyball teams.

88 - That deal looks too good to be true! Four years for only $18.25m? Sir Sidney will probably be earning more than that over the next four years.

Anyone else notice there is an ad for a Scott Stapp album as one of mlb.com's top stories? Is this not very, very disturbing?

2005-11-17 12:32:18
91.   regfairfield
90 Wow, that's some mighty on base:
Of the players with at least 150 PA.

Kruk:.430
Dykstra: .420
Stocker: .409
Daulton: .392
Hollins: .372
Eisenrich: .363
Milt Thompson: .341
Ricky Jordan: .324
Ingaviglia: .318
Morandini: .309
Duncan: .304

Yeah, i'd take that team.

2005-11-17 12:35:58
92.   SMY
84 The good news is that following their logic, if Colletti doesn't win, we can triumphantly declare that building a team based on chemistry and "old-school" values doesn't work. Really in the end, nothing works.
2005-11-17 12:37:39
93.   regfairfield
92 Percentage wise, sabermetrics is destroying old school.
2005-11-17 12:38:57
94.   Kevin Maxwell
14. dzzrtRatt

I would love for the Dodgers to be restored to sanity.

2005-11-17 12:50:29
95.   Xeifrank
Is there some sort of Oakland A's guide I can read to familiarize myself with them?

Atheletics Nation blog, the link is listed on Jon's sidebar. They tend to talk alot of sabr stuff. Latest rumor is Beane is shopping Zito. vr, Xei

2005-11-17 12:53:05
96.   Steve
90 -- That is an incredible deal. What is Jose Cruz Jr. getting paid again? Taking into account all the risk and reward scenarios, a remarkable signing.
2005-11-17 12:56:41
97.   das411
91 - And if you look at the way that team was built, don't most of the position players (I'm looking at you, Kruk) fit the Moneyball/Oakland A's stereotype of the non-athlete, walk or homer player?

There is a thing or two to be learned from the pitching that year also, from the reverse-Gagne that Fregosi and Johnny Podres (where is he these days?) pulled with some punk kid named Schilling, to the playoff experienced starters that Lee Thomas brought in (Terry Mulholland, Danny Jackson), the scrap heap but undervalued relievers (Dave West, Larry Anderson) and late-season additions (Donn Pall, Roger Mason, and Bobby Thigpen), with a VERY deep bench (Jordan, Kim Batiste, Thompson/Incaviglia/Wes Chamberlain, Todd Pratt).

If that team signs Larry Walker instead of Gregg Jefferies in the '94 offseason, it's quite possible the Atlanta streak ends in 1995 and that team never wins a WS, we see a slugfest for the ages between the Indians and Phils in the '95 Series, and who knows if the late 90s Yankee dynasty ever emerges?

Ahh, hindsight...

2005-11-17 13:23:43
98.   LAT
Why do the Giants skate?

In additon to the reasons above, its becasue they are not boring. Even when losing everyone stops to watch Barry and to a lesser degee Schmidt. With the exception of one late-inning when the bullpen door swung open, the Dodgers have been extremly boring to follow for at least three years (if not longer). Even when they were winning in 2004, they were like watching grass grow. 2003 was the most boring season ever and 2005 was only interesting to count how days on the DL we could rack up.

Of course I would rather win, but I would like a little excitment as well. Maybe Drew can provide that if he can stay healthy in '06.

2005-11-17 13:29:22
99.   jasonungar05
Ned Colletti, talking clubhouses.

"I believe in character, work ethic, coachability, how badly someone wants to win," he said. "Statistics don't tell the whole story."

Which is why we just loved Barry Bonds in SF.

Huh?

2005-11-17 13:30:37
100.   Bob Timmermann
I think the Giants also get a honeymoon period because of their relatively new park, (Large Telephone Corporation) Park, the nice setting it has, and the presence of Miller and Morgan on ESPN telling you what a great team the Giants have.

When Bonds returned last year, it was the Giants that made the last run at the Padres for first place, but after the Jeff Fassero meltdown and the JT Snow error, the Giants faded into third.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-17 13:32:27
101.   molokai
I guess the incredible MVP type year that Beltre put up in 2004 was boring. Evidently you never went to a ballgame because 2004 was anything but boring. From Lima to Beltre to Milton to Werth to Finly to Gagne that was the best year I've had at Dodger stadium from a fans perspective since the days of Piazza.
2005-11-17 13:33:37
102.   fanerman
Giants get to skate because of Bonds. It's as simple as that.
2005-11-17 13:33:44
103.   SMY
99 Don't you know? Barry is really great in the clubhouse and brings cookies for his teammates every day. But the media has it out for him, so they say he's a bad guy.
2005-11-17 13:35:19
104.   Jon Weisman
98, 101 - Yeah, 2004 was definitely not boring. And I'd argue that although there wasn't any offense, 2003 was too tense to be boring.
2005-11-17 13:40:15
105.   alexx
80, 95 Thanks. I might have to reread Moneyball.
2005-11-17 13:40:56
106.   dzzrtRatt
101 2004 was fun, and 2003 was fun too. Having no offense was frustrating, but that was when Gagne/Quantrill/Mota were so often handed one- or two-run leads that they managed to hang onto almost every time. Brown, Nomo and Wilson Alvarez were good. Izturis's great defensive abilities were starting to show; between Izzy and Beltre, any ball hit to the left side of the infield was snagged. It was the only year when I couldn't wait for the Dodger offense to finish up so I could watch the fun part, the pitching and defense. That was not a boring team; it was weird, but not boring.

What I found boring were the 90s teams.

2005-11-17 13:41:39
107.   dzzrtRatt
I guess it took me five minutes to describe 2003.
2005-11-17 13:45:57
108.   jasonungar05
It's only april, I mean May, strike that, June..oh crap it's really July? well we still have time.

Yeah, that's the boring 90's as defined by Eric Karros.

2005-11-17 13:47:52
109.   Bob Timmermann
When the Dodgers had Piazza, Karros, and Zeile all lined up, you had to hope for a home run because those guys just went one base at a time.
2005-11-17 13:52:06
110.   jasonungar05
uh-huh, and every now and then he let's his team mates watch him review his homerun highlights on his in clubhouse hi-def for his eyes only flat panel screen. Just don't sit on the leather recliners.
2005-11-17 13:56:39
111.   Sushirabbit
109 Is it just me or was this years team slow as Christmas, too? Kent looks like he is in slow motion to me. But he's years past where those three were in mid 90s. Maybe getting old and slow is the best teacher of plate discpline.
2005-11-17 14:00:36
112.   fanerman
111 - Well, compared to Phillips, everybody was lightning fast.
2005-11-17 14:00:40
113.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers appeared to be slower this year because:
1) Kent got on base the most and he isn't all that fast anymore
2) Phillips was playing a lot
3) Saenz was a playing a lot
4) Robles batted leadoff a lot and he was slower than you would expect for a leadoff hitter/middle infielder

On the other hand, Jason Repko is very fast and one of the fastest players I've ever seen on the Dodgers.

2005-11-17 14:01:41
114.   dzzrtRatt
The 90s: Eric Karros, but also Tommy Lasorda and Fred Claire. Tommy should've retired after '88. O'Malley should've found a sharp guy like DePodesta to work under Claire, since Claire himself was threatened by anyone with a brain. The 1990s Dodgers were the exhausted dregs, the rusted remains of the "Dodger Way" that became outmoded as both a business and baseball model.
2005-11-17 14:06:02
115.   Bob Timmermann
O'Malley could have hired DePodesta in 1989, but he would have had to have gotten permission from his parents.

(Yes, I know he said "like DePodesta")

2005-11-17 14:09:50
116.   molokai
Maybe this has been posted but here are the Type A/B/C free agents as rated by baseball.
From the BA site.
For a Type A player, the compensation is the signing team's first-round pick plus a supplemental first-rounder. For a Type B, it's the signing team's first-round choice. For a Type C, it's a supplemental second-rounder.
Aren't most of these players going to be screwed as I can't see teams giving up number ones and supplemental picks for these guys.

Dodgers and players I'd be interested in are highlighted.
Type A
[Wilson Alvarez (LAD)], Brad Ausmus (Hou), A.J. Burnett (Fla), Jeromy Burnitz (ChC), Royce Clayton (Ari), Roger Clemens (Hou), Jeff Conine (Fla), Johnny Damon (Bos), Octavio Dotel (Oak), Erubiel Durazo (Oak), Scott Eyre (SF), Kyle Farnsworth (Atl), Rafael Furcal (Atl), [Brian Giles (SD)], Tom Gordon (NYY), Mark Grudzielanek (StL), Ramon Hernandez (SD), Trevor Hoffman (SD), Bob Howry (Cle), Todd Jones (Fla), Paul Konerko (CWS), Matt Lawton (NYY), Braden Looper (NYM), Kevin Millar (Bos), Bengie Molina (LAA), [Matt Morris (StL)], Bill Mueller (Bos), Mike Piazza (NYM), Joe Randa (SD), Al Reyes (StL), Kenny Rogers (Tex), B.J. Ryan (Bal), Rudy Seanez (SD), Julian Tavarez (StL), Ugueth Urbina (Phi), Billy Wagner (Phi), Larry Walker (StL), [Jeff Weaver (LAD)], Rondell White (Det), Bob Wickman (Cle), Tim Worrell (Ari).

Type B
Antonio Alfonseca (Fla), Rich Aurilia (Cin), Paul Byrd (LAA), Hector Carrasco (Was),[ Elmer Dessens (LAD)], Cal Eldred (StL), Juan Encarnacion (Fla), Shawn Estes (Ari), Carl Everett (CWS), Julio Franco (Atl), [Nomar Garciaparra (ChC)], Alex Gonzalez (Fla), Todd Greene (Col), Chris Hammond (SD), Scott Hatteberg (Oak), Rick Helling (Mil), Roberto Hernandez (NYM), Jason Johnson (Det), Jacque Jones (Min), Al Leiter (NYY), [Esteban Loaiza (Was)], Kenny Lofton (Phi), Brian Meadows (Pit), Jim Mecir (Fla), Jose Mesa (Pit), Dan Miceli (Col), Kevin Millwood (Cle), Jamie Moyer (Sea), Mike Myers (Bos), Rafael Palmeiro (Bal), Todd Pratt (Phi), Felix Rodriguez (NYY), Reggie Sanders (StL), J.T. Snow (SF), Sammy Sosa (Bal), Russ Springer (Hou), Frank Thomas (CWS), Brett Tomko (SF), Michael Tucker (Phi), Daryle Ward (Pit), Jarrod Washburn (LAA), Bernie Williams (NYY), Preston Wilson (Was), Eric Young (SD).

Type C (first-time free agents only)
Joey Eischen (Was), Scott Elarton (Cle), Abraham Nunez (StL).

2005-11-17 14:11:55
117.   Sushirabbit
I was wrong about Kent I guess

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_34_bat.shtml

Also, here are the extra bases courtesy:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/

Year----2b--3b---HR
2005---284--21--149
2004---226--30--203
2003---260--25--124
2002---286--29--155
2001---264--27--206
2000---265--28--211
1999---253--23--187
1998---209--27--159 (johnson replaces piazza)
1997---242--33--174 Zeile
1996---215--33--150 Blowers

2005-11-17 14:12:57
118.   molokai
113
Robles might be the slowest middle infielder in baseball under the age of 30.
2005-11-17 14:14:37
119.   Sushirabbit
117 uh, substitute 34 with 37 on that first link
2005-11-17 14:21:34
120.   Sushirabbit
Kent really was a great pickup. I definitely saw more downside to him when the trade happened and more upside to Bradley. Man was I wrong.
2005-11-17 14:26:20
121.   fanerman
117 - Can you explain the extra bases table? Is that how many extra bases the team had?
2005-11-17 14:30:13
122.   Bob Timmermann
Kent is good, but Omar Vizquel has the necessary character to hold a team together.
2005-11-17 14:31:37
123.   LAT
OK, maybe instead of "boring" I should have said "fun" or "enjoyable." No doubt 2003 had great pitching, but it was no fun watching the Dodgers lose 1-0 because the offense stunk. Or to know on the rare occasion when someone did get on base he was going to be stranded there. Yes, Beltre was great to watch in 2004 and Finley's one at bat was fun, but Lima was a circus side show. Werth had a nice season but let's not go overboard, he was not exciting or highlight film material. Bradley also had a nice season but the highlights, unfortunately, were watching him lose his s#*t. Frankly the highlight of 2004 for me was Cora's 18 pitch at bat. I was there for that, it was electric.

Maybe there were more enjoyable moments than I am remembering. Perhaps the events of the last year, culminating in the last month, have left such a bad taste in my mouth I have forgotten the good times. A little more consistent offense and a lot less front-office drama is all I'm asking for.

2005-11-17 14:37:55
124.   Jon Weisman
123 - However many games they lost in 2003 because the offense stunk, they won more because the pitching was so great. And you do seem to have forgotten the many, many comeback victories in 2004. The game was never over, as they say.
2005-11-17 14:41:28
125.   bhsportsguy
One of the benefits of finishing in the bottom part of the league is the fact that we won't lose our first round pick if we sign a type A or B free agent.
2005-11-17 14:47:38
126.   Curtis Lowe
I dont see how 53 come from behind victories is not fun to watch, I honestly had a blast at he bars when it'd be the 9th with 2 outs then some kind of rally would push those kids on top, then would come Gagne and many rounds and many shots would be bought. If thats not fun baseball than I dont know what is.
2005-11-17 14:50:45
127.   Curtis Lowe
I didnt mean "He Bars" I meant just plain old bars so please dont get the wrong idea.
2005-11-17 14:55:06
128.   Bob Timmermann
I haven't heard the term "He Bar" since they took out the County Bear Jamboree at Disneyland.
2005-11-17 14:57:44
129.   fanerman
What's a "he bar"?
2005-11-17 15:05:49
130.   jasonungar05
2 things from the Whicker article that stand out.

"I'm a believer in kids," Colletti said. "And in this park, pitching and defense. They (Dodgers) had good infield defense two years ago when they won the division. Last year it wasn't so good."

He quickly confirmed he was less infatuated with Hee Seop Choi and J.D. Drew than DePodesta had been.

No quote on the last one.

2005-11-17 15:11:47
131.   dzzrtRatt
116 Molokai raises a good point about the Type A free agents. Who's going to give up a first-round pick to sign Mark Grudzielanek, or Braden Looper, or Kevin Millar? The only players on the A-list who seem worth it to me are Clemens, Burnett, Giles, maybe Damon, Eyre and Ryan. Maybe the two catchers, Hernandez and Molina just because there's such a dearth. A few of the Type B's look borderline interesting--Loiza, the Angel pitchers, Reggie Sanders. But not much that's worth surrenduring a big piece of the future on.

(This is where Jamesian principles have infused the whole game, whether Joe Morgan wants to admit it or not. It wasn't so long ago that the draft-choice impact of a FA signing was considered trivial.)

As bhsportsguy says in 125, the Dodgers would not face that liability if they signed a FA, but isn't that rule also deterimental to FAs? Bottom-tier teams are the ones least likely to have the budget for a FA. For those teams, it's better to lose a FA than gain one.

So--what happens to Type A's and B's if no one signs them? At what point can you sign, say, Mike Piazza without penalty?

2005-11-17 15:14:49
132.   Steve
130 -- And the mediocre shall again rule the Earth.
2005-11-17 15:22:33
133.   RMAPasad
Teams will have to forfeit a draft pick for signing a Grudz, Millar, or Piazza only if their former teams offered arbitration. Teams don't want to take that risk (as LA didn't last yr with Lima or Finley) because an arb award or pre-arb settlement would be too high.
2005-11-17 15:24:19
134.   jasonungar05
yeah I almost started my post with:

Steve, make is a double why your up

2005-11-17 15:25:23
135.   LAT
124. Good point about the come from behind victories. This recent nightmare seems to have robbed me of my memory of the good times.
2005-11-17 15:26:07
136.   Marty
I'm wondering if, needle-nose Ned, because of familiarity, is going to load the team up with ex-Giants. I really don't want to see J.T. Snow, Bret Tomko, etc.
2005-11-17 15:27:16
137.   Marty
Sorry about the horrible abuse of commas.
2005-11-17 15:29:05
138.   natepurcell
lets trade for zito. what would you give up for zito?
2005-11-17 15:36:32
139.   natepurcell
ha! this was proposed on athletics nation blog by a poster:

...for their farm system is absolutely loaded(dodgers); however, the players you mentioned are not the ones we should go after in a trade.

If we could pull something like this: Zito + someone else for Billingsley, Andy LaRoche, Edwin Jackson (why not take a chance), and Milton Bradley.

2005-11-17 15:38:24
140.   Bob Timmermann
Zito + Penny + Alyssa Milano + Shannen Doherty = Bad chemistry
2005-11-17 15:45:09
141.   jasonungar05
139throw in russ martin and it's a deal
2005-11-17 15:46:17
142.   willhite
130 -

When I saw your comments about Whicker's article, I emailed him to see what made him make the comments about Drew and Choi.

This is what he answered back:

"Because he said, on the podium, the Dodgers needed help at corner infield, and later he said he put a premium on healthy players. When asked how that affected JD Drew, he said, "I have my thoughts about JD Drew and I'm going to tell them to JD Drew first." Which I didn't take as an endorsement."

2005-11-17 15:46:46
143.   Steve
Yep, it's official. The Phillips Doctrine is invoked.
2005-11-17 15:55:41
144.   dzzrtRatt
The Drew comment struck me as odd the way he phrased it.

It might be that Ned wants to alter the rather one-sided contract DePo signed him to. He probably wanted to get Scott Boras' heart rate up a little.

By the way, if I call Colletti "Ned" on this website, does that mean I'm an "old-fashioned baseball" geek? I've been rolling my socks over my pants legs since Tuesday night, so maybe I am.

2005-11-17 15:59:45
145.   Bob Timmermann
Ned was the most misunderstood man in this here territory.
People used to think he was a mean ugly feller and they called
him a dirty skunk and an ornery pig stealer

But the folks that really knowed him.

Knowed that beneath them two dirty shirts he always wore

There beat a heart as big as all outdoors

As big as all outdoors.

2005-11-17 16:00:38
146.   tjshere
I'm thinking Orel should change his last name to something that ends in a vowel.
2005-11-17 16:06:34
147.   molokai
142
Maybe what he meant was that he feels JD Drew has enough talent to be to the Dodgers what Barry Bonds was to the Giants and Ned knows just the chemist to make it happen.
2005-11-17 16:07:25
148.   Jacob L
145 You really don't want me completing that lyric, do you, Bob?

Can't. Hold. Back.

Poor Ned is dead
Poor Ned Colletti is dead
He's lookin oh so purty and so nice (and so nice)
It looks like he's asleep
Its a shame that he won't keep,
But its summer and we're running out of ice.

2005-11-17 16:18:47
149.   Bob Timmermann
148

So someone else had a parent who was addicted to singing songs from "Oklahoma" too?

My father had a home karaoke machine which he used for this purpose.

2005-11-17 16:26:59
150.   fanerman
142 - Corner infield could still mean only 3rd base. Right? Right? right?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-17 16:30:39
151.   Uncle Miltie
150- but then I wouldn't be able to say "Just another walk for Aybar..."
2005-11-17 16:33:32
152.   fanerman
151 - but then you could say "Just another home run for Choi..."

I don't really believe myself when I say that.

2005-11-17 16:36:21
153.   gvette
I'm amazed by all the love for the '03 team, which tried to turn a Mike Kinkade HBP into an offensive weapon.

As revisionist history WHAT IF;

1)Instead of bargain shopping for Henderson and Burnitz, Evans had rolled the dice and sent hot prospects Jackson and Hanrahan to Pittsburgh (as rumored) for Brian Giles;

2)With Giles in the lineup, the Dodgers eke out a playoff berth and their superior pitching takes them deep into the postseason;

3)Evans keeps his job(temporarily of course) and is hailed for his shrewdness,

4)Giles is in the lineup 2 years in exchange for two prospects who haven't developed; no DePo,no Choi, in fact most of the topics on Dodger Thoughts are wiped off the table.

Isn't hindsight great.

2005-11-17 16:41:05
154.   Uncle Miltie
Aybar could have made McCourt more money than Gagne.

I was going to change the phrase to "Just another walk for Willy" and they could make t-shirts.
-Willy Ay-Pod cases
-Willy Ay-Ware (sunglasses)
-Willy Eye-bars (someone else's suggestion)- they would be powerbar substitutes

Any other Aybar suggestions?

2005-11-17 16:42:52
155.   Bob Timmermann
All of this hindsight we've had today reminds me of the words of the famous philosopher:

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

2005-11-17 16:45:21
156.   Steve
If Frank McCourt had balls, he'd be Jamie.
2005-11-17 16:46:05
157.   Marty
If Willy was a porn star, his catch phrase could be "raise the Aybar"
2005-11-17 16:46:13
158.   gvette
Does that aunt go to "he-bars"?
2005-11-17 16:52:45
159.   jasonungar05
How about these trade proprosals.

JD Drew for Ryan Freel.

Hee Sop Choi for Kenny Lofton.

Antiono Perez for Juan Castro.

2005-11-17 17:01:14
160.   Uncle Miltie
Yes on the Lofton deal. He's a former Giant.

Next years team:
C Benito Santiago
1B J.T. Snow
2B Jeff Kent
SS Rich Aurilia
3B Bill Mueller
LF Jose Cruz Jr
CF Kenny Lofton
RF J.D. Ghost

SP
Lowe
Penny
Tomko
Rueter
Ponson

2005-11-17 17:11:39
161.   Brian Y
142- I just thought he was going to try Drew at 1B again to be honest. Drew played 1B for the Cards a LONG TIME AGO. But he could probably still play there I'm thinking. And then we would be after some OF's.

Anyone here think there is a way doesnt opt out of his contract after next year? I guess he could always tear a hamstring but anyways......

2005-11-17 17:18:36
162.   grandcosmo
155. And if cats could fly there'd be no birds in the sky.
2005-11-17 17:20:43
163.   Bob Timmermann
And going back to my first comment and J.D. Drew as the inimitable Mr. P wrote today

""About J.D. Drew, whose injury history clashes with Colletti's philosophies?"

The philosophy of not getting hurt apparently.

I'm upset at my parents for clashing with my philosophy of not wanting them to die.

2005-11-17 17:23:22
164.   dzzrtRatt
According to Hacksaw, Colletti is going after Nomar and Lyle Overbay. The other anonymous idiots on 570 were chuckling about what Overbay's arrival would mean for Choi. One of them, "Matt," said he wanted Choi to get another year. Hacksaw and the other guy both acted as if he'd just proposed the most ridiculous notion possible. I guess the CW on Choi is that he just stinks the joint up, and he was DePodesta's folly. Jim Tracy must have really chatted up a lot of sports media types about why he didn't like Choi--I don't know where else this could be coming from. He might not be the best fielding first baseman, but the Dodgers have seen a lot worse.

142 Using that left-to-right diagram, if Drew can still play centerfield, shouldn't he play there until he can't? I don't recall having any issues with Drew's defense, and I am led to believe that RF is harder on a bad knee than CF. Leg angles I guess.

Drew is in the catbird seat. I don't know what Colletti's leverage is. You don't add a year to that contract. The only good news is if Drew looked at '06 as his walk year, and repeated his '04.

2005-11-17 17:27:05
165.   D4P
164
I think I speak for us all when I say that Choi can do at least as well as Overbay, if not better, and we wouldn't need to give anything up to get him.
2005-11-17 17:33:05
166.   Uncle Miltie
Jim Tracy must have really chatted up a lot of sports media types about why he didn't like Choi
That Korean food that he brought into the dugout stinks.

Do you like the smell of raw eel and kimchi?

2005-11-17 17:34:41
167.   fanerman
164 - What kind of sources does Hacksaw have? If Choi goes, I hope he goes somewhere he'll be appreciated. He really deserves it.
2005-11-17 17:40:41
168.   willhite
mlb.com reporting Cubs have signed Eyre.

Very good signing.

2005-11-17 17:41:16
169.   King of the Hobos
Replacing Choi with Overbay does seem somewhat of a waste, especially as it will cost something.

If we must replace Choi, we could do a lot worse than Overbay, and I wanted Nomah anyways. The only thing I don't like about Overbay is that he's a doubles hitter, although a little more power and he has a few more homers. And he's a good bet for 80 walks

Eyre has signed with the Cubs. Supposedly, all 32 clubs had interest in him, so he narrowed it down to 4 clubs yesterday (the Dodgers were not one). It's a two year deal, which surprises me as he could easily get 3 years. Guess he signed for more than just money...

2005-11-17 17:43:42
170.   Marty
Kimchi is one of my favorite foods to eat
2005-11-17 17:44:05
171.   willhite
Nice to get Eyre away from the Giants
2005-11-17 17:45:12
172.   dzzrtRatt
Eyre's a great signing, especially for the NL West.

Colletti's San Francisco house of cards...tumbling down!

just kidding.

2005-11-17 17:50:27
173.   molokai
167
For some obscure reason I think the Twins might be interested:) Wouldn't it be cool if they lucked into their own David Ortiz.
2005-11-17 17:54:18
174.   D4P
173
They could nickname him "Big Choppy"
2005-11-17 17:56:21
175.   King of the Hobos
FOXsports.com says it's a 3 year, $11 mil deal. That's a lot for a set up man. Cubs have now signed Dempster, Neifi, Rusch, and Eyre, not exactly difference makers, and they're wasting their money doing it

Martin followed up his 0-4 performance in game 1 with a 2-5 performance in game 3 of the Olympic qualifying series. He also was hit by a pitch, and stole a base

2005-11-17 18:00:14
176.   D4P
175
Why do hitters get credit for getting hit by pitches?
2005-11-17 18:03:40
177.   dzzrtRatt
Because it's scrappy?
2005-11-17 18:08:13
178.   King of the Hobos
In Biggio's case, he stands in so far that he probably should get credit. Same with former Dodger HBP extraordinaire, Mike Kinkade
2005-11-17 18:10:23
179.   D4P
178
But hitters are supposed to try to get out of the way of pitches, such that "getting hit" indicates that they weren't successful in doing what they are supposed to do.
2005-11-17 18:14:45
180.   D4P
177
Good point. I've been working on a "scrappiness index", that can help quantify the characteristics that keen eyes (like those on Jim Tracy's face) can identify immediately, but that they rest of us seem to miss. So far, it includes:

# of crashes into walls (+)
# of basemen taken out by hard slides (+)
# of years spent in minor leagues (+)
# thickness of dark stuff worn under eyes (+)
# height (-)
# HBPs (+)
# being white (+)
# being named Ja(y)son (+)

Anything else?

2005-11-17 18:16:47
181.   King of the Hobos
Goatee and goggles help as well
2005-11-17 18:19:12
182.   Eric L
179

If only JD Drew could have gotten out of the way...

2005-11-17 18:21:00
183.   D4P
181
Duly noted.

182
Wouldn't have mattered. His knees would have given out anyway...:)

2005-11-17 18:22:38
184.   Steve
Bunting unless you're Hee Seop Choi (+)
2005-11-17 18:24:13
185.   Uncle Miltie
182- Bill Plaschke should like J.D. then. He was being scrappy.
2005-11-17 18:26:46
186.   Bob Timmermann
Why shouldn't batters get credit for getting hit by a pitch? Should pitchers just be allowed to toss 90 mph fastballs at guys all game long?

If you don't let the batters reach first on HBPs, then you'd have a bloodbath on your hands.

Or you can look at it this way? Why should a pitcher be rewarded for being so wild that they hit someone with a pitch?

2005-11-17 18:30:37
187.   D4P
186
I don't mean that hitters shouldn't get awarded first base for getting hit. I mean, why should getting hit by a pitch be factored into OBP? Why is getting hit, for example, any better than reaching on an error? The error is on behalf of the fielder, just as the errant pitch is on behalf of the pitcher. It's not as if getting hit by a pitch represents a "talent" on the part of the hitter, in the way that hits and walks (supposedly) do.
2005-11-17 18:33:31
188.   Bob Timmermann
HBP is factored into OBP on the theory that a good hitter will get hit by pitches more frequently than a bad one because pitchers are working more carefully to him.

There are obvious exceptions to it, such as Mike Kinkade.

You could just as easily argue that it's the pitcher's fault that a batter walked too.

2005-11-17 18:33:57
189.   King of the Hobos
New pitchr is on the market, Yasuka Iriki

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=919

JapaneseBaseball.com has a link to the official story, but it's in Japanese. The other site mentioned, which has it in English, says he's poseted, whereas the Japanese article says he's released to follow his dream, similar to Iguchi last year. The people on that forum believe he may be no better than a AAA pitcher. I don't think signing him to compete for the 5th starter would not be that bad of an idea (he's 34 next season)

2005-11-17 18:37:57
190.   D4P
Except for the fact that hitters are supposed to try to avoid getting hit by pitches, but not supposed to swing at pitches out of the strike zone. In other words, they're supposed to try to draw walks, but not supposed to get hit. Letting a pitch hit you when you could have gotten out of the way is against the rules.

And yes, much of the "fault" for a walk goes to the pitcher. It's impossible for a hitter to draw a walk unless the pitcher throws at least 4 pitches out of the strike zone per at-bat.

2005-11-17 18:40:41
191.   King of the Hobos
The Red Sox are bringing Bowden and Beattie back for 2nd interviews. I feel a lot better about Colletti now
2005-11-17 18:42:05
192.   D4P
191
NED Beattie?
2005-11-17 18:44:17
193.   dzzrtRatt
For your scrappiness index, a quiz:

Ever slid headfirst?
Ever slid into first?
Ever caught a line drive in your bare hands?
Ever slid into the dugout to catch a foul pop?
Ever kicked dirt on an umpire?
Ever taken out the guy at second on a double play ball?
How many infield hits did you get?
(Managers only) Ever punched out someone in a bar who criticized your team?

Tiebreaker:
How fast do you run to first on a BB?

2005-11-17 18:44:51
194.   Robert Fiore
What Choi needs for the sake of his career is to be traded to a lousy team hungry for power that would let him play. The hell of it is, last year he was on a lousy team hungry for power that had no better alternative, but the manager wouldn't play him.
2005-11-17 18:45:59
195.   das411
187 - It's not as if getting hit by a pitch represents a "talent" on the part of the hitter, in the way that hits and walks (supposedly) do.

The above sentence will NOT be on Craig Biggio's Hall of Fame plaque.

2005-11-17 18:46:30
196.   D4P
193
Nice additions. The tiebreaker is particularly noteworthy.
2005-11-17 18:48:17
197.   Bob Timmermann
But just about every batter does try to get out of the way of a pitch. It hurts a lot.

However, unless you're Craig Biggio or Ron Hunt, HBPs don't affect your OBP very much.

Washington led the NL (and tied with Toronto in the AL) with 89 HBPs. That represented 1.4% of the team's plate appearances that year.

2005-11-17 18:53:23
198.   Sam DC
Red Sox also interviewing unspecified other candidates. Plural.
2005-11-17 18:54:37
199.   D4P
197
I guess I'd rather see BOTH HBPs AND reached-on-errors included in OBP, rather than just one. If it's legitimate to argue that pitchers are more likely to hit "good" hitters with pitches because they are working them more carefully, it would seem to be legitimate to argue that fielders are more likely to make errors on balls hit by fast runners, because they have to hurry the fielding and throwing, which presumably increases the chances of committing an error.
2005-11-17 18:59:53
200.   Uncle Miltie
Ever kicked dirt on an umpire?
Who was this referring to?
(Managers only) Ever punched out someone in a bar who criticized your team?
Billy Martin?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-11-17 19:02:20
201.   Bob Timmermann
However, studies of batters reaching on errors hasn't really shown any correlation between speed and reaching on errors.

I can't find 2005 figures, but the batter who reached base the most on errors in 2004 was Miguel Tejada: 18 times.

On the 2004 Dodgers Cesar Izturis led the team by reaching first 10 times on errors.

Overall, right handed batters reach first on errors more often than lefties for some reason.

2005-11-17 19:06:48
202.   Bob Timmermann
Another example of the weird aspects of reaching first on an error:

In 2002, Dave Roberts played in 122 games and reached first on an error just once

In 2003, Roberts played in 107 games, but reached first on an error 14 times.

2005-11-17 19:14:26
203.   Jesse
Skimming through the last fifty or so posts I've missed since work, I can't help but get a little hot n' bothered over the blatent assumptions as to how Ned is going to build the team in the image of some of the more poor Giant aquisitions over the last few years. We saber folk got so upset when the Plashkes and Simers types stereotyped Depo out of reality, don't do the same to Ned. I'm nervous at what he may do, but let's approach it from a more thoughtful manner. He hasn't done anything yet.

Anyhow, I love Choi, but (barring giving up a gem of a prospect) his ceiling could be that of a guy like Overbay. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing Choi getting respect in an Oakland uniform, while at the same time reaping the benefits of a guy like Overbay. As for Nomar, I thought I saw him driving on my way to work in Whittier the other morning. What he can do now is probably similar to Aybar's ceiling, no matter how well Willie played at the end of last year.

2005-11-17 19:16:33
204.   Jesse
I'm a little buzzed on sake and am apologizing for my lack of adequate grammar in post 203.
2005-11-17 19:26:17
205.   Sushirabbit
121 Sorry so late to respond, but, yeah, those are the extry-base-hits (doubles,triples,homers) in regards to Bob's comment about piazza,karros,ziele which was really only 97, and 37 games of 98. And then because I thought Kent and the 05 team seemed really slow, I thought I'd just do the whole thing. I expected greater differences, I was surprised at the doubles and then more surprised by how many Kent had. That ain't bad for a 37 year old. Even if I can still stroke a ball, I can't see one now even if it was painted nitro-yellow-tennis-ball-green.
2005-11-17 19:33:02
206.   dzzrtRatt
Just added to the 40-man roster: Loney, LaRoche, Guzman, Jose Diaz, Greg Miller. So no Rule 5 for them.

From mlb.com

2005-11-17 19:36:52
207.   King of the Hobos
203 Aybar hit .326/.448/.453 in 86 ABs, clearly overperforming based on minor league numbers. After Nomar came back from injury, he hit .318/.347/.531 in 179 ABs. Nomar may not have the patience of Aybar, but when Aybar goes back to hitting .270/.340/.390 that he hit throughout the minors, Nomar will look better. Plus Willy looks awful for Estrellas this year, and is overvalued for trades
2005-11-17 19:39:31
208.   Uncle Miltie
I think Aybar could hit .270/.340/.420, and those are pretty solid numbers for a 2B (the position he should be playing).
2005-11-17 19:41:54
209.   King of the Hobos
206 Jumbo surprises me, he doesn't seem like a target. But I'm not complaining. I believe this leaves Chin-Lung Hu available, but he's probably not worth a spot on a major league team next year. Still wouldn't be surprised to see him replace Edwards or someone. Anyone know who else is eligible?

And what do you guys make out from the last 2 paragraphs? Wedding, or Piniella/Fregosi, or both?

2005-11-17 19:43:03
210.   Uncle Miltie
Willy has 21 at bats (small sample size, just like when he was up with the Dodgers).
2005-11-17 19:49:58
211.   King of the Hobos
210 What are those ABs for?

If Aybar's DWL stats are included with his MLB stats, he's hitting .254/.354/.366 in 142 ABs

2005-11-17 20:01:07
212.   dzzrtRatt
Lou Piniella and Jim Fregosi.

Do we have to?

I think this is part of McCourt's Donald Trump complex. He wants a glitzy name. That's why Nomar's coming too, I bet. To McCourt, Nomar is a superstar because he was on the Sox.

I guess I'd prefer Lou, just because I do think his TB and Seattle jobs were similar to what the next manager will face here. A lot of young guys. But unlike the Rays, the Dodgers can pay at least a few big salaries--Lou got tired of it being kids and kids only in Tampa Bay.

2005-11-17 20:04:14
213.   fanerman
If the manager keeps the pitchers healthy and plays the right guys, I'll be happy enough.
2005-11-17 20:12:06
214.   D4P
213
Hopefully the manager's philosophy is such that he prefers healthy pitchers.
2005-11-17 20:17:13
215.   Eric L
214 Hey, I'll be happy to have a manager that realizes that some pitchers get gassed after a certain amount of pitches and hooks them as soon as there are any signs of trouble.
2005-11-17 20:25:45
216.   Uncle Miltie
211- the Dominican Winter League. On his team's website (http://tinyurl.com/78prm) It says he has 21 at bats. I thought he had poor year in 2004 in the Dominican also.
2005-11-17 20:27:05
217.   Steve
So is it true that the Cubs just gave up a first round draft pick for Scott Eyre?
2005-11-17 20:27:12
218.   D4P
Since Jon didn't say it (did he?): new post up top.
2005-11-17 20:34:09
219.   CanuckDodger
209 -- Chin-Lung Hu signed his Dodger contract three days before his 19th birthday, so he is not eligible for the Rule 5 draft till after the 2006 season.

It is interesting to reflect on how much worry there has been for nearly a year now over how we were going to have to trade prospects in 2005 just to avoid getting slaughtered in the up-coming Rule 5 draft. Or perhaps "worry " is not the right word. People who have been wanting us to jettison prospects for "proven" major leaguers have been argiung that we might as well trade a bunch our prospects because we would just lose them for nothing anyway in December 2005's Rule 5 draft. Hogwash. Every single one of the prospects on my list of Top 30 Dodger prospects who needs to be protected from the Rule 5 draft IS protected, and we did not have to make a single trade. Oh, I'm sure we will lose some minor leaguers in December, to either or both the major league and minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft, but non-Top 30 prospects are not guys who could have got us anything in trade anyway.

2005-11-17 20:38:24
220.   King of the Hobos
216 Licey's page says he has 56 ABs, and 8 hits. Only 3 walks. Not sure which one to believe, although Licey's page is updated regularly
2005-11-17 20:42:55
221.   King of the Hobos
216 Thanks about Hu. Man did he cut it close though
2005-11-17 20:56:25
222.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
203 "I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing Choi getting respect in an Oakland uniform..."

I would love to see him get a shot also, but I think Dan Johnson will be their 1b for the next several years.

2005-11-17 22:14:24
223.   Jesse
222.

to be sure, though i figure choi, who is only a few months older than dan johnson, could have quite the similar career path. maybe DH?

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.