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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Mota Lives!
2005-12-05 06:24
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Manny Mota should be on Survivor, or whatever counts as the cool musical chairs reality show of the day. How has he survived in the Dodger organization, where there has been so much turmoil and so many others have been disappeared, long enough to play a role in making Rafael Furcal a Dodger?

Is it because of his magic bat? Or his ability to ride a bike? Or is he just too great a guy?

* * *

Be sure to read the Dodger Thoughts stories from a busy weekend:

Antonio Perez Recovering From Fractured Cheekbone

Furcal Theorems

Report: Furcal Agrees to Deal with Dodgers

Los Angeles Bruins of Pasadena at Los Angeles Trojans

Pursuit of Furcal Reopens Door for Bradley

* * *

Anyone else do a double take when they read this headline in the Times today?

Johnson Booed, Beaten
in Return to Phoenix

Comments (405)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-12-05 07:47:17
1.   Bob Timmermann
And yet his son, Jose, works for the Angels.

Just another a long list of Angel indignities visited upon their L.A. cousins!

Except if you've listened to Jose Mota who is sort of the negative image of Rex Hudler.

In a year or so, it's time to bring Lenny Harris into the organization.

2005-12-05 07:56:04
2.   deburns
Any thoughts on the rumored Bradley for Zito trade mentioned in the LA Daily News? With Zito on the last year of his contract, I assume LA would want a window to negotiate an extension. Or are they so sanguine about the Jax Sun rotation that a rental at somewhat less than Weaver's current deal is fine with them. Given that Bradley is cheap, you would think something more than Zito might be involved.
2005-12-05 08:14:44
3.   Izzy
2.
I looked up Bradley's salary and he's getting 2.5 a year. I think he is up for arb though? So he's not that that cheap, but still he's not expensive. I am thinking it would be nice to lock up Zito too, for more than a year in the deal, which seems impossible, but hey, it doesn't hurt to try. He's a great pitcher. I'd even throw three guys in there if we get a longer contract. But only one top prospect and Bradley. Bradley is damaged goods, and he could go off any moment, so they are taking some type of risk. The thing with Bradley is that he didn't just get a DUI. He flips out at the fans. He flips out at teammates. He flips on his wife. He flips at the umps. I mean, it's turmoil all over the place. It's not the same as Furcal, though I am not minimizing DUI's, because you can kill people like that.
iz
2005-12-05 08:14:52
4.   Sam DC
Buster Onley also appears to have Zito for Bradley in his insider piece.

Meanwhile, from a commenter on Bronx Banter:

3. Rob Gee Let all us believers say a little prayer this morning for the perfect one-year stop gap (more and cheap if it works) - the one, the only:

MIL-ton BRAD-ley

And for you non-believers, just recall the Latrell Sprewell phenomenon. No one wanted him for the same silly reasons and he was more than worth it. Now if the crazy, Lupica-spiting, version of Milton appears - he's on a cheap one-year contract!

2005-12-05 08:15:11
5.   blue22
2 - The prospect package that would have to go along with Bradley may be too much, especially since Zito would also have to be extended for the deal to make sense. I'd assume Bradley + 2 top prospects (probably not CBill or Guzman, but anyone else is up for grabs), then we get the privelege of negotiating a 3-4 year extension with Zito in the neighborhood of $10-$12M / year.

IF we're still resigned to trading Bradley, I might be more inclined to take Juan Cruz and Jay Payton instead. Cruz has always been long on talent, and could be a good 4th or 5th guy in the rotation. Payton would be a 1 year rental, and gives us more depth.

Of course this is all presuming Milton has played his last game as a Dodger, regardless.

2005-12-05 08:19:56
6.   LAT
From the LA TImes article, words I have been longing to hear:

"He and Raffy really hit it off," said Paul Kinzer, Furcal's agent. "Frank did a good job of selling the team. Raffy got all the answers he needed."

Alas, not they way I had hoped.

2005-12-05 08:20:45
7.   FirstMohican
2 - I'm in favor of a trade for Zito provided we can negotiate a contract extension for three more years after 06.

Considering the prospects the Mets gave up to get Delgado & Lo Duca, I wouldn't imagine we'd have to give up either Billingsley or Guzman to get Zito. Of our top prospects, I think I would most easily part with LaRoche.

I read an article comparing Wood and LaRoche in the AFL. A scout mentioned that, while both were very good players, Wood had the better work ethic. I took that as a knock on LaRoche.

Bradley, LaRoche, & PTBD for Zito? I think that's somewhat realistic, with the Dodgers getting the better end.

2005-12-05 08:21:51
8.   blue22
4 - Olney:

"You'd have to figure that the Dodgers would have to part with at least two of their top prospects, such as Chad Billingsley, as well."

I'm not trading CBill for Zito. I just won't do it.

2005-12-05 08:23:04
9.   TheDictator
I'd be for signing Sammy Sosa as long as he promised to go back on the Juice. That, and he would have to go through some sensitivity training on how to treat teammates.

Sammy and Kent in the same clubhouse! Let's get ready to rumble!

2005-12-05 08:24:41
10.   blue22
7 - Considering the prospects the Mets gave up to get Delgado & Lo Duca, I wouldn't imagine we'd have to give up either Billingsley or Guzman to get Zito.

What does one have to do with the other? Nobody has ever confused Beane with Minaya. Beane will want a package on par with what he got for Mulder last year - a top hitter, a top pitcher, and a bullpen arm.

Now if you're talking about getting Milledge and Heilman for Kent, I think the first half of your sentence is relevant.

2005-12-05 08:25:26
11.   worz
History gets re-written (again)......

"LoDuca essentially wound up replacing Piazza as the Dodgers' catcher five years ago and was a driving force in their winning of the National League West title in 2003. Then-Dodger manager Jim Tracy cited LoDuca as the Dodgers' team leader and was openly critical of the deal that sent the catcher to the Marlins at the trading deadline in '04"

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/371588p-316146c.html

Do these guys even check the most basic facts??

2005-12-05 08:27:06
12.   FirstMohican
10 - What does it NOT have to do with the other? What is it that you dont get?
2005-12-05 08:27:14
13.   blue22
LoDuca essentially wound up replacing Piazza as the Dodgers' catcher five years ago

You're right, totally discounts the Todd Hundley and Charles Johnson eras... :P

2005-12-05 08:28:14
14.   FirstMohican
11 - DePodesta destroyed a team that had won two consecutive NLW titles, apparently.
2005-12-05 08:28:34
15.   LAT
I don't want to trade MB for an inconsistant, over-rated pitcher who only has one year left and we likely would not re-sign. I would rather take a flyer on two or three highly rated prospects from another team.

BTW, when Depo was our GM I was always leary when there was talk of Dodger-A's dealings. Didn't want his Dad to get the best of him. But now its even scarier. Depo perhaps feeding BB the inside scoop. (Given the way he was treated, I couldn't blame him one bit). Just stay away from BB. Ned won't out manouver him.

2005-12-05 08:30:31
16.   blue22
12 - Minaya gives away the farm to get back Delgado and LoDuca from the Marlins.

Now Beane can't hold LA hostage for CBill or JtD to get Zito?

Unless you're saying that the Mets are no longer a player in the Zito sweepstakes since their prospects are now in FLA...

2005-12-05 08:38:02
17.   FirstMohican
10 - Nobody has ever confused Beane with Minaya.

You just confused Minaya with Beinfest. Minaya gave up prospects, while Beinfest recieved prospects. (Minaya:Beinfest::Colletti:Beane)

My point was that there may be a prospect market similar to the FA market. If the Dodgers, for example, sign Furcal at 3/39, then maybe the next SS that signs will ask for more than he originally would have in light of the recent SS deal. Admittedly, I'm no baseball markets expert, but I would imagine that in some capacity, that the prospects (which in my estimation aren't all that impressive) coming from the Mets, and going to the Marlins, would set somewhat of a precedent.

I could be totally wrong. It could be that the Marlins could care less about getting value in return and that priority number 1 is getting rid of salary and a very distant priority number 2 is value in return. But I'm fairly confident I'm not confusing Minaya with Beane. Anything else you don't get?

2005-12-05 08:40:00
18.   FirstMohican
17 - Because I'm sure you'll take issue with my "(which in my estimation aren't all that impressive)" let me clarify that the prospects the Mets gave up don't compare with Billingsley or Guzman IMO.
2005-12-05 08:48:14
19.   FirstMohican
15 - "perhaps feeding BB the inside scoop."

I could see that. Apparently they talked frequently while DePo was the Dodger's GM. There's no way DePo's happy with his release so I wouldn't put it past someone to give their input on what prospects are forreal in an org. Although, that does raise some ethical questions. =)

When was the last time the A's got the bad end of a deal?

2005-12-05 08:49:05
20.   fanerman
Joe Sheehan on Baseball Prospectus:
"Peter Gammons mentioned that the Red Sox have a 26-person contingent here, in lieu of an actual general manager. The absence of anyone with that title didn't stop them from making the Josh Beckett deal, however, and they continue to work on deals and negotiate with free agents without anyone designated as the top dog.

I think the Red Sox have backed into something here. The future of the general manager job is not the imperial GM, a role that goes back to Larry MacPhail and Branch Rickey and extends today to personalities like Billy Beane and John Schuerholz. As the industry matures, the GM role does too, beyond the capabilities of any one man into something better handled by a team of experts, each with a different speciality. So you'll have a performance analyst, and then a skills analyst, someone who likely has the title of "scouting director" or "director of player personnel." You'll need an expert in the game's rules and in the minutiae of contracts, often the same person for both jobs; finally, you'll want a media-friendly face heading the group, because media relations, for better or worse, are a critical part of the job."

Is Ned just a media-friendly face afterall?

2005-12-05 08:52:10
21.   Sospiro0
While I don't support trading Billingsley or Guzman for Zito, I don't see how a Beane trade always takes advantage of the other team's stupidity. A trade, in theory, should be good for both teams. The Braves and Cardinals aren't crying over trading for Mulder and Hudson. In the end, the trade was beneficial for both parties.

The A's can't afford, nor do they need to pay for Zito at 10 mil when they have young players ready to fill his position. They're dealing from an area of strength.

Would anyone expect a drop off from Zito if he came to the Dodgers? Not at all I think.

And I don't think you need to trade the Dodgers A prospects for him either.

2005-12-05 09:05:09
22.   dzzrtRatt
Bradley for Zito, straight up, I could accept. I would rather just look at Zito as a one-year rental, and give up no additional players. If Beane's asking price for Zito is like it was for Mulder and Hudson, he can peddle that elsewhere. In Bradley, he's getting an impactful player at an affordable price. That's a good deal right there; no need for the Dodgers to feel any necessity of enhancing it. Zito is a spare part now for the A's. A year ago, he could've named his price for Zito, but this isn't a year ago.
2005-12-05 09:06:11
23.   fanerman
22 - Yeah. If it was Bradley for Zito I'd do it. Otherwise, I'm inclined to say no.
2005-12-05 09:11:40
24.   blue22
22 - The Dodgers are in a much stronger negotiating position now that it isn't a foregone conclusion that Bradley will not be back.

I very much doubt, though, that Bradley straight up will get it done. My preference is that LA keeps Bradley around. If the ties have already been cut, a straight up deal for Cruz and Payton makes more sense to me. Either way, I'm not trading any of the major prospects to get Zito. And I'm not crazy about the idea of having to sign him to a long-term extension for big dollars.

2005-12-05 09:12:15
25.   FirstMohican
21 - The Braves and Cardinals aren't crying over trading for Mulder and Hudson.

True, but consider that Haren and Mulder put up incredibly similar numbers (120, 117 respective era+), while Mulder made 18 times what Haren did. Remember the A's got Calero and Daric Barton OPSd at 901 in AA for the A's. I suppose the Cards may not be crying, but they're definitely hiding a frown.

2005-12-05 09:19:05
26.   Sushirabbit
So, I just looked at the numbers on Weaver and Zito again. Zito comes out better than I thought; his SO/BB is still not as good as Weaver's but everything else, looks solid. I think my memory of Zito on my Fantasy League must have been faulty, or perhaps he evened out in the latter half of the year, because I was recalling that his SO/BB ration got out of whack. Not according to baseball-reference.com.

With Zito, you could argue that you get a few more innings, with a bit more consistency-- Plus, well, I guess it's OK to lift this:

.2005...........ERA.. *lgERA.. *ERA+
Jeff_Weaver... 4.22 ... 4.06 ... 96
Zito ......... 3.86 ... 4.49 .. 116

Zito's ERA+ is consistently better than Weaver. I really think if Weaver had been handled better this year, he would have been even better.

2005-12-05 09:20:38
27.   Sospiro0
Upon checking out Haren's stats, I didn't realize how good of a season he actually had. Looks to be better for the A's.....damn you Mohican!
2005-12-05 09:25:45
28.   Mark
Bradley and Jackson for Zito.
2005-12-05 09:26:50
29.   dzzrtRatt
The Braves & Cards also faced a different situation. Both teams were in "win-now" mode. If the Dodgers had won 94 games last year but got bounced from Round One of the playoffs because of a hole in our starting pitching, I might be more willing to overpay for Zito to optimize my existing investment in the players who got me this close. But the Dodgers are conbuilding/ retending. Colletti would consider winning the division a success, and in the NL West, the bar isn't that high. Zito helps him get there, sure. Kenny Rogers helps him maybe not so much, but the difference between Zito and Rogers isn't worth more than the value of Milton Bradley. And--if Bradley was baggage-free and injury-free, I wouldn't make the deal at all. The Dodgers will need to trade prospects to get a good outfielder to replace him. The Zito-Bradley trade aggravates one problem while solving two others.
2005-12-05 09:28:23
30.   FirstMohican
I noticed on a 2005 top 50 prospect list by minorleaguenews.com and on thebaseballcube.com that LaRoche was listed as a SS. As far as I knew, he was and has been a 3B. Anyone know what the deal is?
2005-12-05 09:33:55
31.   dzzrtRatt
To pick up on Jon's topic, let me ask this: Why is Manny Mota never considered as a possible Dodger manager?

Back in the 70s, I worshipped Manny Mota. He was probably my favorite Dodger player, or at least tied with Cey and Smith. If the Dodgers ever lost Mota, it would be like God withdrawing his blessing.

So what's Jim Fregosi got that Mota hasn't got?

2005-12-05 09:35:39
32.   blue22
The Hudson trade was less successful than the Mulder trade. The Braves gave up Dan Meyer (2-8, 5.36 ERA in AAA this year), Juan Cruz, and Charles Thomas. Meyer doesn't look like he'll be able to crack Oakland's young rotation (though it's far too early to give up on him), Cruz is tradebait, and Charles Thomas looks like he's got a lot of Jason Repko in him.
2005-12-05 09:36:53
33.   CanuckDodger
The Cardinals should definitely be crying over the idiotic deal they made to get Mulder. They got an expensive pitcher two years from free agency in exchange for a cheap pitcher five years from free agency JUST AS GOOD AS MULDER, their #1 prospect, Daric Barton, and a good reliever, Kiko Calero. Billy Beane has built his reputation on these sort of rip offs, and not only do the Dodgers seem to want to line up to be fleeced, plenty of Dodger fans want the fleecing too. The common baseball fan's attitude is that as long as his team gets the "biggest name" in the deal, his team wins. Beane's attitude is that he does not care about the names, he just want the MOST and CHEAPEST talent in the deal, and that is why he REALLY DOES WIN.
2005-12-05 09:42:03
34.   D4P
31
So what's Jim Fregosi got that Mota hasn't got?

A losing record...?

2005-12-05 09:42:46
35.   Vishal
i've been thinking about zito-for-bradley(+prospect) for weeks. i don't know why you guys wouldn't want zito. the guy has NEVER MISSED A START. the tag on him was that he didn't even know where the trainer's room was.

here are some stats:
zito
2005
228.1 IP 3.86 ERA 6.75 K/9 1.20 WHIP .220 BAA 116 ERA+

career avg
~218.7 IP 3.50 ERA 7.03 K/9 1.22 WHIP .228 BAA 129 ERA+

the thought of getting a guy who has held the AL to a .228 average for his whole career, and is only 27, should make anyone drool.

2005-12-05 09:44:09
36.   Vishal
plus zito lives in LA. i'm sure he would be agreeable to a long-term extension.
2005-12-05 09:47:03
37.   blue22
Not sure what Oakland's catching situation looks like, beyond Kendall. Could it be that Beane would want Russ or Dioner (Russ), plus Bradley and a pitcher (Orenduff/Tiffany)?
2005-12-05 09:48:35
38.   CanuckDodger
32 -- Yes, for Hudson, the A's got a lot less than they got for Mulder, because Hudson was only one year from free agency while Mulder was two years away. Zito's situation is analogous to Hudson's situation, not Mulder's. A package from the Dodgers comparable to what the Braves gave Oakland would be Justin Orenduff, Yhency Brazoban, and Jayson Werth. Bradley alone is worth more than any of those three players, so if Zito were to fetch anything more than Bradley, it should be very little -- if a deal we made were to be comparable to the deal Atlanta made for Hudson. Yet Colletti is probably a lot dumber than Atlanta's GM, and to that effect I am hearing rumor has it that Colletti is offering Bradley "and several top prospects" for Zito. If true, Colletti is an idiot.
2005-12-05 09:52:39
39.   SMY
Buster Olney thinks one year of Zito is worth Bradley + 2 top prospects, mentioning Billingsley in particular? That's crazy talk. Why am I not suprised?
2005-12-05 09:57:08
40.   Jon Weisman
I have personally gotten the sense that Billingsley is close to untouchable. Colletti is relying on Logan White for a judgment on the farm system, and I seriously doubt that White is out there thinking that including Billingsley in a Zito trade is a good idea.
2005-12-05 10:00:12
41.   Jon Weisman
I might add, cautiously, that the media isn't off to a great start at predicting what Colletti will do. I don't think anyone saw Furcal coming, or the payroll going above $80 million. Olney, like anyone else, might turn out to be right - but it could be a broken clock syndrome.
2005-12-05 10:02:50
42.   SMY
[40, 41] I agree, I'm just amused (as always) by Olney's ideas of the relative worth of players.
2005-12-05 10:02:59
43.   blue22
38 - Hudson was only one year from free agency while Mulder was two years away.

Interesting. I thought it was more StL getting fleeced. Or, rather, the guys StL traded away ended up making more of an impact. I could've seen Cruz being as good as Calero was - he's always had the stuff. And Haren I think surprised a lot of people, whereas Meyer was a major disappointment.

I'm not even touching the Daric Barton vs. Charles Thomas comparison though.

2005-12-05 10:07:37
44.   Jon Weisman
I posted this query in a quick update up top: Anyone else do a double take when they read this headline in the Times today?

Johnson Booed, Beaten
in Return to Phoenix

2005-12-05 10:24:59
45.   Jon Weisman
31 - It's kind of a good question. You figure there must be something wrong with Mota that has kept him from being considered, although the question is whether there is anything more wrong with him than with anyone else?

Strategically, you'd assume he's Old School, which might be a downer for me and others in DodgerThoughtsLand, but not among those doing the hiring. Then again, who knows?

Or maybe he doesn't want that much responsibility and spotlight?

2005-12-05 10:27:49
46.   Izzy
15.
I hadn't thought of that at all. That's a good point on BB and Depo and ya, proceed with caution. Is Depo working yet anywhere?? Zito is a known quantity, and lifetime ERA of 3.5 is pretty dang good. I don't think I would give LaRoche for him in any deal though, less Oakland paid Zito's salary for 4 years. not
2005-12-05 10:33:36
47.   blue22
46 - Depo seems to be a pretty ethical guy. I doubt he's giving away insider information while still collecting a paycheck from LA. Maybe I'm just naive.

I read the other day that Beane does want to get Depo back in Oakland after this year.

2005-12-05 10:37:55
48.   Sushirabbit
Anyone out there besides me, feel certain that Depo has probably visited this site by now?
2005-12-05 10:41:09
49.   Rob M
35 I want Zito very much. He's a stud, and he's underrated. His numbers would look a lot better in the NL, he's very durable, he's a lefty, he's still young. There is some kind of post-hype letdown about him - he's never quite replicated his Cy Young year, so people think, he's not very good. He probably has some more years like that ahead of him, but he's the kind of horse that anyone should covet, regardless.

Also, why so much rampant speculation about Colleti being a moron and likely to make horrible trades? I'm starting to think the braintrust, with Ng, White, and Smith in the background, is solid. I feel pretty confident about things going forward. Choi, for instance. If he doesn't hold on to the 1B job, I bet it will be because he doesn't earn it, not because we have a stupid manager. I'm ready to assume that there are grown-ups in charge.

2005-12-05 10:41:41
50.   Izzy
Oh, so since he is being paid by us, he isn't working anywhere else? I didn't know that, but it makes sense. You would hope he would be that way.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-12-05 10:45:42
51.   Marty
I'll always rememember a Mota interview back when he was playing, where Vin or Jerry Doggett asked him what his secret to hitting was. He said "I just close my eyes, swing as hard as I can and hope I hit the ball".

I love that.

2005-12-05 10:46:58
52.   blue22
I'm starting to think the braintrust, with Ng, White, and Smith in the background, is solid.

Me too, though there isn't much to go by so far (Small Sample Size Alert!). This setup fits nicely into the scenario described in 20.

2005-12-05 10:48:30
53.   Jon Weisman
48 - I'm certain he has visited. Whether he was or is a regular reader, I don't know.
2005-12-05 10:52:47
54.   Bob Timmermann
Paul DePodesta is really Steve.
2005-12-05 10:57:51
55.   D4P
53
By "certain he has visited" do you mean "Someone registered under the name Paul Depodesta"?
2005-12-05 10:58:24
56.   SMY
54 Words can't describe how hilarious that would be.
2005-12-05 11:00:15
57.   Jon Weisman
55 - I mean, the person whose DNA makes up the person you know as former Dodger general manager Paul DePodesta has logged on to this URL and read the words beneath it.
2005-12-05 11:03:01
58.   D4P
57
How would the person whose DNA makes up the person I know as "Jon Weisman" know that the person whose DNA makes up the person I know as "former Dodger general manager Paul DePodesta" has logged on to this URL and read the words beneath it?
2005-12-05 11:06:02
59.   scanderbeg
Just a thought: what is the liklihood that one of the possible corner infield prospects (Aybar, Guzman, LaRoche, Perez) will be starting at 3B on Opening Day?
2005-12-05 11:07:02
60.   Jon Weisman
58 - He once praised me for something I wrote.

I suppose it's possible he read a printout, if he's not computer-savvy enough to find the URL himself.

2005-12-05 11:09:21
61.   Marty
60 Hey, I once praised you for something you wrote too. Maybe I'm Depo.
2005-12-05 11:10:55
62.   D4P
60
1. He praised you in person?

2. If Depo's not computer-savvy, well, then neither is Bill Gates.

2005-12-05 11:13:43
63.   Jon Weisman
62 - Via e-mail. And don't ask the next question. Just trust me.
2005-12-05 11:16:08
64.   Mark
63 Please don't say AOL. Please don't say AOL. Please don't say AOL.
2005-12-05 11:17:28
65.   Jon Weisman
64 - I don't get it.
2005-12-05 11:17:48
66.   D4P
63
Do you think he sent the email from his (ghasp)...LAPTOP?
2005-12-05 11:18:51
67.   KLV
Zito would be great. As Dodger fans who suffered through 2005, we should especially appreciate durability, and Zito has been simply amazing in that department.

Obviously, it will take a lot more than Bradley to get him, but we have significant depth to trade from and durable, young, quality starters like Zito are a rarity (none on the FA market this year).

It's hard to evaluate a potential trade without knowing who the prospects would be. I'd hate to give up Guzman, Martin, or Billingsley. But given the scarcity of pitching on the free agent market, Zito would probably fetch a nice package including top prospects. Here's hoping that Zito has his heart set on L.A. - he lives here, dates movie stars, and likes to play music - and would only do an extension with an L.A. team. That would give us a lot of leverage and drive down what other teams would offer.

2005-12-05 11:19:00
68.   Steve
pdp@firejimtracytoolate.com
2005-12-05 11:19:06
69.   natepurcell
so zito trade eh?

wow, everyone one remember my original dodger success excel file?

my moves were
-resign cruz
-sign furcal
-sign giles
-trade for zito

okay i admit it, i am roy smith, stats analysis member of the gang of four.

2005-12-05 11:19:17
70.   molokai
Everyone, I value your opinions and I'm curious how you think a player like Milton is equal to Barry Zito.
1. Had several problems in the Expo organization that resulted in his being suspended.
2. He missed 1/3 of a season to a bad back in 2003
3. Was traded in the spring of 2004 for nothing because the manager was fed up with his attitude and didn't want to deal with him anymore. A manager who knew how usefull MB was and a manager who has since proven to be one of the better handlers of young talent in baseball.
4. As the Dodgers were in a heated pennant race lost his cool in 2004 and might have cost us the pennant because of his suspension.
5. Told JD Drew he was the CF.
6. Tore his finger in a freak accident in 2005 missing a bit of time.
7. Fights with Jeff Kent, is asked by management to keep it in house and decides his agenda is more importants to the teams and takes it to the media anyway.
7. Next day blows out his knee.
8. Next day his marital abuse becomes common knowledge.
9. I listened to Jim Tracy go on and on about MB for 25 minutes one day. If he can't make with JT in his corner I have no belief he will make anywhere.
10. His knee injury will probably remove him from being a decent CF anyway and is probably a preclude of more knee problems in the future.

In 3 major league seasons he's completed one and that was marred with the suspension. So we have a talented but injury prone outfielder, who has now blown it with two teams, has put HIMSELF above the team in key situations and you think he's worth the same as a guy who has been by most metrics one of the best pitchers in the AL for the last 5 years and has rarely missed a start in that time. Honestly how many times do you have to get burned by someone before you say enough is enough. By the time he's mature enough to be productive enough to match his talents his talents will have waned to the point that his career will be pointless.

I would love to trade Milton to the A's and I'll include any two prospects not in our top 10. If I'm idiot so be it.

2005-12-05 11:19:22
71.   D4P
64,65
I assume he means "don't say Depo's address ended in @aol.com"
2005-12-05 11:19:44
72.   Bob Timmermann
64

He was hoping DePodesta would have a better ISP.

Maybe it was PaulD@webtv.net

Or DodgersGeneralManager@hotmail.com

2005-12-05 11:20:11
73.   fanerman
Of course he's read this site. We're his biggest, most closely knit, most loyal supporters. If I were in his shoes and I were fired, I'd read Dodger Thoughts to help pick myself up.

Wait, I do that already even though I haven't been fired.

Actually, he probably has read Jon Weisman more than he has read us commenters. Ah well.

2005-12-05 11:20:43
74.   natepurcell
zito would be a good move, depending on if contract extension would be made and what is given up.

that said, to beane, bradley is worth more than a top prospect because hes ready to breakout like as soon as next year.

Bradley, orenduff, tiffany.

2005-12-05 11:21:59
75.   fanerman
So...
Steve = Paul DePodesta
Nate = Roy Smith

Who's Kim Ng? Bob Timmerman?

2005-12-05 11:24:21
76.   D4P
75
Hmmm..."Bob" took offense when I innocently commented on Kim's appearance...it's all making sense to me now...
2005-12-05 11:26:33
77.   Rob M
70 Agree. Maybe not about "any two prospects in our top 10," but about the rest. Bradley's injury history plus his behavioral problems make him less than stellar trade bait. And Zito, as I said before, is a stud. Not quite Beckett, but not far behind. Especially if we could sign him to a nice extension. Without a doubt, a No. 1 starter is our biggest need. He's the only one available, AFAIK.
2005-12-05 11:26:59
78.   Jon Weisman
73 - "Actually, he probably has read Jon Weisman more than he has read us commenters. Ah well."

You say that like it's a bad thing :)

71, 72 - Oh, I see. It wasn't AOL. Nor did I get any e-mail from googleboy@gmail.com.

2005-12-05 11:27:01
79.   Bob Timmermann
I always hated having such a short last name, hence my pseuodnym.
2005-12-05 11:27:15
80.   molokai
He's just as likely to breakdown as he is to breakout. How many players coming off of knee surgery have had a breakout year the following year?
2005-12-05 11:28:13
81.   molokai
77
I said any 2 prospects NOT in our top 10.
2005-12-05 11:30:05
82.   natepurcell
He's just as likely to breakdown as he is to breakout. How many players coming off of knee surgery have had a breakout year the following year?

same can be said for zito. the continue innings logged on his arm, the declining peripherals, he could just implode soon.

2005-12-05 11:30:23
83.   molokai
75
Sad to say I don't see any female posters. Maybe Jon could get Christina Karl to post here once in a while.
2005-12-05 11:30:37
84.   Rob M
81 Ah...Then I agree completely :)
2005-12-05 11:30:48
85.   Curtis Lowe
Why not Bradley+ Repko+Jackson+Edwards+Cody something+Jim Fregosi for Zito.
2005-12-05 11:31:28
86.   natepurcell
so... bradley+all of our trash for zito?

excellent!

2005-12-05 11:32:55
87.   D4P
86
That's not all of our trash...
2005-12-05 11:34:47
88.   Curtis Lowe
One mans Trash is another mans Treasure, I honestly think that Oakland would be great for Jackson, they do alot of good things for promising young pitchers up there.
2005-12-05 11:34:58
89.   CanuckDodger
77 -- Zito is not a stud, he is not much better than Derek Lowe, and he is incredibly over-valued. Billy Beane knows this, that is why he is trying to find a sucker to overpay for him.
2005-12-05 11:34:58
90.   CanuckDodger
77 -- Zito is not a stud, he is not much better than Derek Lowe, and he is incredibly over-valued. Billy Beane knows this, that is why he is trying to find a sucker to overpay for him.
2005-12-05 11:35:08
91.   CanuckDodger
77 -- Zito is not a stud, he is not much better than Derek Lowe, and he is incredibly over-valued. Billy Beane knows this, that is why he is trying to find a sucker to overpay for him.
2005-12-05 11:35:09
92.   the OZ
I always thought the enormous Mr. Timmermann was really Richard Kiel, the guy that played Jaws in the Bond films.
2005-12-05 11:35:29
93.   Slipstream
63--

Jon, what was the thing you wrote that Paul DePodesta praised?

2005-12-05 11:35:29
94.   molokai
You forgot J Philips and I don't consider E Jackson trash but a worthy trading chip.
2005-12-05 11:36:34
95.   Midwest Blue
E! Entertainment Alert: Didn't Zito and Penny date the same starlet (Alyssa Milano)? Think of the potential clubhouse conflicts!
2005-12-05 11:36:39
96.   natepurcell
this is interesting.

beane traded hudson to atlanta, hudson is from georgia.

beane traded mulder to st louis, mulder is from somewhere near st louis.

zito is from socal, went to USCB/USC.

the truth comes out. beane is a sweetheart, sending the big 3 all home in one final gesture of love.

2005-12-05 11:41:16
97.   Bob Timmermann
92

I'm not that big. According to the IMDB, Richard Kiel is 7'2".

I've seen Carel Struycken, who played the Giant in "Twin Peaks" and Lurch in "The Addams Family".
He's 7' tall. He was a big dude.

2005-12-05 11:41:29
98.   fanerman
On Saturday, Rob at 6-4-2 posted that "Paul DePodesta is likely to come back into the A's fold after the birth of his second child in January."

I'm sure they talk regularly and I'm sure they talk baseball regularly. If DePo's coming back officially in January, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already giving his input to Beane now.

So if we were to trade Bradley + prospects for Zito, we'll have to trust Mr. White's judgments. Still, I agree with Nate's assessment that Zito also has a chance of imploding like Bradley. And I agree with CanuckDodger's triple post to an extent. Zito's good, but I'm not sure he's an ace. I'm skeptical.

2005-12-05 11:43:11
99.   Curtis Lowe
96- Lets hope his love can help prevent him from robbing the farm.
2005-12-05 11:43:58
100.   molokai
77
I'll agree he's not a stud in that 2002 was his outlier He is much younger then Lowe and just using win shares has out pitched him every year since 2001. We don't know if he's overvalued until we see what Beane gets for him. There was a huge difference between the packages that Beane got for Mulder and Hudson. If it is the Brave package which was basically a setup pitcher, a 4th outfielder, and a B level pitching prospect I would do that. If it is the Cardinal package, of course I'd pass.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-12-05 11:45:31
101.   natepurcell
Flanders has stated that he is going to rely on logan white heavily for his input if we are trading prospects. I have my full faith in logan white, so lets see what happens.
2005-12-05 11:46:23
102.   Jon Weisman
95 - People noticed, I assume, that Drew McCourt, Matt Leinart and Shannen Doherty were all on the sideline of the USC-UCLA game Saturday?

93 - If you can believe it, I don't know. It was basically a "nice piece" comment, without identifying it. I wrote back to thank him and never did find out which one it was. Thus, my earlier comment, he "praised me for something I wrote."

2005-12-05 11:46:41
103.   CanuckDodger
88 -- Gee, maybe we should do a lot of good things for promising pitchers down here (Well, I'm up in Canada, but you get my point). What Oakland does for young pitchers is put them on the pitching staff and keep them there. They have some bad games to start, but they aren't sent to Siberia for it. Oakland sticks with them and gets improvement from them. So yes, why don't we send Jackson to the A's. They can turn him into a star, and then when Jackson is a year from free agency, we can get him back for a king's ransom in prospects, who are useless to us because we don't trust prospects. (Just ask Aybar, whose .900 OPS in his job audition in the bigs wasn't good enough for him to warrant consideration for a starting job with the Dodgers next year.)
2005-12-05 11:47:35
104.   Bob Timmermann
At least some guy with Drew in his name had a good time on Saturday.
2005-12-05 11:49:36
105.   natepurcell
if aybars 900OPS audition in september makes him overvalued to other GMs, then bye bye willy!
2005-12-05 11:51:45
106.   molokai
I haven't seen anything from Colletti that shows he's not competent and the gang of four should be able to deal with Beane on equal footing. Not all of Beane's trades are plusses.

I wouldn't call Kendall a success.
I wouldn't call Kielty a success.
I wouldn't call Ginter a success.
I wouldn't call Meyer,Cruz,Thomas a success
I wouldn't call Dotel a success

The man is not infallible and we should not be afraid to deal with him.

2005-12-05 11:51:56
107.   D4P
105
The kind of GMs who care about OPS are probably not the kind of GMs who would base their evaluation of a player on one month's performance.
2005-12-05 11:54:25
108.   dsfan
Molokai, thank you sincerely for spelling out all of the reasons Bradley is unreliable. You've done it before and it's an important point that bears repeating.

I'd keep Bradley, but his injury history is disconcerting.

The Indians traded him not just because of his immaturity/temper but because they doubted he could stay healthy to justify his rising salary.

2005-12-05 11:54:39
109.   natepurcell
remember when beane traded bonderman? that wasnt a plus either.
2005-12-05 11:54:40
110.   molokai
103
They don't stick 20 year olds in the rotation.
2005-12-05 11:54:46
111.   Marty
Saturday was a great day. I'm looking forward to USC crushing Texas by at least 3 touchdowns.
2005-12-05 11:54:46
112.   Midwest Blue
Jon, I actually don't keep up on this stuff so I don't know if you mean that public personalities who date each other can get along on a sideline. But that would be much different than sharing a clubhouse with someone for a whole season, dontcha think?

Anyway, I vote for getting Zito. Bradley + 1 good pitching prospect and one not so good hitter (Edwin, Braz, Orenduff OR Tiffany + Repko). I'll throw Phillips in for free.

2005-12-05 11:56:28
113.   Marty
Throw Phillips in on any deal. Just remember not to include a return address.
2005-12-05 11:58:19
114.   dsfan
Canuck,

Bingo on Aybar!

The LAD should keep him in in the picture for 2006. Maybe it'd be too much to hand him the 3B job, but if you sign Mueller to a short-term deal, Aybar could still be in the mix at third.

2005-12-05 11:58:22
115.   molokai
109
I only went back one year. And I'm not trying to say the Beane is not a great GM. His record stands on his own but he does not have the greatest trade record, he has a great record of developing his players and using them when they can help his team. Seems to me that he lets his prospects percolate in the minors longer(Hudson Street the exception) and when they hit the majors they are able to produce at a high level right away while most teams promote to fast and the prospects struggle.JMO
2005-12-05 11:59:08
116.   Jon Weisman
112 - My comment was just a tangent, not an analogy, by any stretch.
2005-12-05 12:00:07
117.   Sushirabbit
54 was hilarious, Bob.

I am sort of surprised that MLB teams aren't using Blogs in the same way they use newspapers. They obviously are willing to do online "chats". Why not come someplace that obviously cares about the team, is knowledgeable, and for the most part not going to try and rip your head off.

How would it be any different than being at your wife's corporate party and some drunk guy coming up to you and asking "Hey, why'd you trade Lo-Duca-Heart-And-Soul away?" Maybe it's just my overactive imagination, but I'm guessing stuff like that happens alot.

2005-12-05 12:01:25
118.   D4P
Unless I missed it, I don't think I've seen anyone mention Choi as a likely candidate to accompany Bradley to Oakland. I think Beane would probably be interested in Hee Seop, and especially so if it's true that Depo is advising him. That's not to say that I want Choi to go, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if (1) Beane wanted him and (2) Flanders wanted to get rid of him.
2005-12-05 12:01:35
119.   Uncle Miltie
I'm an A's fan and I've never been a big fan of Zito. Canuck is right in that he's overrated. He's overrated because people think of him as an ace pitcher, which he isn't. He's a solid number 2, who walks too many guys and is a flyball pitcher. I'd give up Jackson and Bradley for him though, because he is a good pitcher, who gives you quality innings (unlike Weaver) and gives you lots of them. Zito has never been on the DL in his career which is another plus. Canuck is wrong to compare him to Lowe. Lowe's ERA was fairly good because of the quality of the defense behind him. Lowe is an innings eater (a #3 starter).

I think if Zito is traded to LA, he'll be traded to a package similar to this:
Bradley, Tiffany, and Broxton

I think that's too much.

If Billingsley is traded, Ned is going to wake up with Tommy Lasorda's head in his bed (not saying that I would be doing it - probably some crazy Canadian).

2005-12-05 12:01:54
120.   CanuckDodger
110 -- Oakland apparently doesn't mind sticking 21-year-olds in the rotation (Rich Harden in the middle of 2003). Billingsley is 21 (22 next July) and Jackson is now 22. It's not like I said Scott Elbert should be in the rotation, is it?
2005-12-05 12:01:54
121.   CanuckDodger
110 -- Oakland apparently doesn't mind sticking 21-year-olds in the rotation (Rich Harden in the middle of 2003). Billingsley is 21 (22 next July) and Jackson is now 22. It's not like I said Scott Elbert should be in the rotation, is it?
2005-12-05 12:05:11
122.   fanerman
118 - Nobody has said it because nobody wants Hee Seop to go =(. Actually, the A's already have Dan Johnson and Nick Swisher. Though I suppose there's always room for one more.
2005-12-05 12:09:54
123.   molokai
121 or 120
I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said. Beane has been successfull with plugging his kids into the rotation because he waits until he knows they are ready. Then your dead on right, he keeps them there even when they struggle. Blanton was the perfect example.

119
I would agree that is to much. I actually want Broxton back in the rotation. I hate to see a young pitcher like that get moved to the bullpen this early in his career. He was doing fine in AA in the rotation. I thought he was moved because they wanted him to get the experience when Gagne went down in case he was needed later in the year. Now put him back in the rotation.

2005-12-05 12:14:40
124.   fanerman
123 - Do you mean put Broxton in the LA rotation or the Jacksonville rotation?
2005-12-05 12:16:09
125.   Midwest Blue
What's up with that Canadian Time Zone that causes double and triple posts, hey?
2005-12-05 12:20:19
126.   sanchez101
Didnt we already go through this last year with the A's and Tim Hudson? Beane will ask for Billingsley, the Dodgers wont give in, and the deal will fall through but Beane will establish that he wants a young potential top starter in return for Zito. My guess is that Zito ends up with however looses out on Burnett.
2005-12-05 12:21:05
127.   CanuckDodger
125 -- I've never had a double or triple post here before, so I don't know how I could have a triple and a double so close together. The triple one exposed the truth about Zito, so I assume the software thought it was worth people reading three times.
2005-12-05 12:21:18
128.   fanerman
BTW, out of morbid curiosity, has Plaschke said anything about the Furcal signing yet?
2005-12-05 12:23:06
129.   D4P
126
Last year, Beane was dealing with Depo. This year, Beane is dealing with Flanders, whose fetish for left-handers is well-chronicled.

See, for example,

http://tinyurl.com/8foeo

2005-12-05 12:29:38
130.   sanchez101
129. how could i have overlooked that, i guess thats good news for wunsch
2005-12-05 12:31:10
131.   CanuckDodger
126 -- Beane could not pull the wool over DePo's eyes. Remember how when DePo was hired there was talk about how there would be a lot of trades between the two old pals? Did not happen. Why? Because the two men looked at players too similarly. Trades happen when two GM's have different perceptions of the same talent and different ideas about building a team. As for Colletti, he has just come from an organization that does trade away a lot of young players for older, more "proven" players, so that is why it is hard to be sure that he is not being insincere when he says he wants to protect the farm.
2005-12-05 12:34:32
132.   D4P
130
And Choi...?
2005-12-05 12:35:19
133.   fanerman
132 - One can hope.
2005-12-05 12:40:11
134.   sanchez101
131. but Colletti is running the show with Ng and Smith and Logan White all of whom were there last year. I think its pretty obvious by now that Colletti isnt going to deal a bunch of prospects for veterans. Joe Sheehan has an interesting article on BP that details how the Red Sox are happy with their Front Office by Committe, and it seems to parallel the dodgers current front office perfectly. May be its reality, may be it isnt. But if Ned was so willing to trade prospects for older guys, why hasnt he done anyting of the sort yet? Are we so sure that Beane and Colletti evaluate talent differently, over the past couple years Beane has been building up the defensive value of his team, while Colletti just spent $40 million on Rafael Furcal. I think Colletti and Beane might be a little closer in philosophy than you think, especially when Ned is basically working with Depo's staff.
2005-12-05 12:40:59
135.   Rob M
I think that there has been so much talk about Zito being overrated the past few years that he's back to being underrated. People seem to take issue with my calling him a "stud." I suppose that's a vague term, and he certainly isn't a Santana or Halladay or Oswalt, he's pretty darn good. He's a very solid guy - clearly a step above Weaver and Lowe, and probably better than Penny (Penny has more upside, but is less consistent and more fragile).
2005-12-05 12:50:21
136.   Linkmeister
O/T but amusing: I just ran across a column by Gene Lyons in Salon (day pass req., it's worth it) called "I married a Coach's daughter." Sports fans will enjoy it.

http://tinyurl.com/dwp5a

2005-12-05 12:57:05
137.   Uncle Miltie
"It's one thing to trade a prospect, it's another thing to trade a star or future star," he said. "A lot of prospects never make it. We have a handful that we'd have to be overwhelmed to talk about." Those are believed to include Billingsley, LaRoche, Matt Kemp, Scott Elbert and Blake DeWitt.

Would having Zito for 1 year really make it worth trading a "future star" for Ned? I doubt it. When he said overwhelmed, he probably meant Miguel Cabrera, Johan Santana, etc.

2005-12-05 12:58:02
138.   dsfan
If the LAD can get Zito for a package whose worth is similar to what the Braves got Tim Hudson, then it's a fair deal.

Is that possible? Yes.

Will it be easy? No.

Beane probably knows the LAD farm system better than he did the Braves farm system and a decent case could be made that Zito has a tad more value than Hudson.

2005-12-05 12:58:07
139.   natepurcell
From Joe Sheehan this morning on Baseball Prospectus:

*I'm very impressed by the imminent Rafael Furcal deal, which looks like three years and $39 million. The Dodgers are showing an understanding of a key element of free-agent signing: it's often not the money in the deal but the length, and a shorter commitment that involves the same number of dollars you might spend in a longer one is often a better deal for the team.

Furcal is a good, not great, player, and he's probably better suited to bat anywhere but leadoff. He has very good power for a shortstop, but his walk rates are average and he's not a .300 hitter. Batting him second would be a better use of his skill set. The Dodgers will get his age 28-30 seasons and have no commitment to him past that; it's a terrific contract for them, and shows an understanding of the limits of player projection. Three years out is about as far as you can project any player, and even that's going to have a fair amount of uncertainty attached to it.*

2005-12-05 13:03:57
140.   Linkmeister
"he's probably better suited to bat anywhere but leadoff."

But, but, leadoff's what Colletti said we needed! ;)

2005-12-05 13:07:44
141.   D4P
139,140
I'd have to think he's better suited to bat leadoff than cleanup.
2005-12-05 13:09:21
142.   blue22
And JD Drew is our best leadoff hitter. Good thing batting order doesn't matter.
2005-12-05 13:10:26
143.   SMY
At least he's better suited to bat leadoff than Izturis.
2005-12-05 13:10:59
144.   fanerman
What exactly does Sheehan mean? I guess Furcal hits too many home runs and doesn't draw enough walks. Still, his baserunning ability means his OBP undervalues his run-creating contributions. He's the best lead-off hitter we have and probably the best lead-off hitter most teams would have.
2005-12-05 13:21:02
145.   Steve
At least he's better suited to bat leadoff than Izturis.

Now there's a pronoun with a lot of predicates.

2005-12-05 13:22:35
146.   D4P
145
Hey Paul, er, Steve, how's the offseason treating you?
2005-12-05 13:23:10
147.   blue22
With all the talk of Milton getting shuffled off to Oakland, there's been surprisingly little talk of who LA replaces him with in the OF. There has to be some sort of plan there, right? Bradley is hitting either 3rd or 5th in LA's current lineup. That's not Ricky Ledee territory going into the season. LA needs a big hitter there.

That's one of the reasons I'm not overly excited about this Zito deal. Cough up top prospects and a truck full of money to lock down Zito, but then what of the OF? If the idea is to grab an impact bat via trade, that's more prospects being moved. And the less said about Preston Wilson or Jacque Jones, the better.

2005-12-05 13:24:17
148.   natepurcell
With all the talk of Milton getting shuffled off to Oakland, there's been surprisingly little talk of who LA replaces him with in the OF.

easy, wilkerson for odalis.

2005-12-05 13:25:04
149.   fanerman
147 - That was my original complaint about trading Bradley for Zito. If we had Giles, it would be a different story. But we don't.
2005-12-05 13:27:22
150.   Steve
146 -- I kept wanting to Fire Jim Tracy. I really did. But the *#%&#)( coin kept coming up heads.

Wilkerson for Odalis is music.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-12-05 13:27:42
151.   standuptriple
I think, considering the lack of arms available, Beane asks for a package more like the Mulder deal (2 pitchers and a stud bat) than what he got for Hudson. I can't figure out why they would want Bradley in that young clubhouse.
2005-12-05 13:27:49
152.   blue22
Keep Bradley (still hoping!), trade Kent to the Mets, sign Nomar. Done and done.

Nomar goes a long way to replacing Kent's production, the Aybar/Perez platoon moves to 2nd (or maybe Nomar plays 2nd), and Heilman goes into the rotation. Milledge studies hard to replace Werth by season's end.

2005-12-05 13:32:54
153.   Blu2
127
A four-bagger and you've hit for the cycle...
2005-12-05 13:33:22
154.   Sospiro0
131 - "Trades happen when two GM's have different perceptions of the same talent and different ideas about building a team."

Trades happen because you have a surplus of one thing and a shortage of another. Supply and demand. Both teams can benefit from a trade--not just teams, but people, countries, or even fifth graders trading Pogs. Evaluating talent in the same manner shouldn't prevent a trade. Do the Dodgers trade some of their minor leaguers for major league talent because they're hoping to jip the other team, knowing the prospect won't pan out? Not necessarily. Do all parties involved in a trade think they're taking advantage of the other? I don't think so. (Though maybe some of the time.) You simply have a need--starting pitching, power outfielder, whatever--and you have a surplus of prospects with which to deal.

Of course if you're talking about perceptions and money then yes. Beane probably values Zito, just not at 10-12 mil a year when he has younger players who he can pay the minimum. The Dodgers need to improve the starting pitching NOW, and have the resources to pay the price.

Now I've said a lot, but I'm sure I've said anything at all.

2005-12-05 13:33:43
155.   molokai
So you trade Kent the one guy who actually plays the game and keep the guy who doesn't and then sign a FA who is even more unhealthy then JD Drew. To make the lineup even more brittle why don't we get Rondell White.
2005-12-05 13:37:03
156.   Jon Weisman
Regarding the Sheehan article about GMs, I don't really see the revolution here. You still need one person to be decision-maker: to be sure, the Red Sox will hire a GM at some point. Maybe that GM, and maybe Colletti, are going to rely on in-house experts for input, but it's not like GMs worked in an utter vacuum before.

134 - "But if Ned was so willing to trade prospects for older guys, why hasnt he done anyting of the sort yet?"

I'm avoiding preconceptions about Colletti, as you know, but to answer your question - he's only had the job for three weeks. He's hardly past the point of no return on willingness to trade prospects.

It's December 5, everyone. The offseason has barely begun.

2005-12-05 13:37:25
157.   Sospiro0
154---errr "not sure"
2005-12-05 13:40:53
158.   Steve
On this Bradley/Zito thing, I've been begging for a rumor that was at least somewhere in the distant vicinity of making sense, and this is finally it.
2005-12-05 13:41:07
159.   molokai
Eventually he's going to trade prospects. The question is who and for what.
2005-12-05 13:42:09
160.   Jon Weisman
By the way, since it's been an ongoing C plot here, a reminder that Dead Show Walking, aka Arrested Development, is back on the air tonight.
2005-12-05 13:42:22
161.   blue22
155 - In my scenario, players don't get hurt.

In all seriousness, I like the Kent to NY for Heilman and Milledge trade (rumor) much more than the Milton trade (rumor). Dodgers are short on OF prospects, and Heilman can go right into the rotation this year. LA bolsters its depth in the minors, allowing for another possible trade to land a big young hitter (Carlos Lee, Adam Dunn?).

2005-12-05 13:43:36
162.   natepurcell
what would you give up for zito steve?
2005-12-05 13:44:15
163.   D4P
160
Jon - As a Hollywood bigwig, do you have any insider info regarding the possibility of AD moving to another network?
2005-12-05 13:45:17
164.   Sospiro0
Why are there no rumors of the Dodgers trading for Bobby Abreu?! I'll give my left foot for him? Who's willing to sacrifice the same?
2005-12-05 13:45:18
165.   scareduck
156 - I'm avoiding preconceptions about Colletti, as you know, but to answer your question - he's only had the job for three weeks.

My God -- and he hasn't been fired yet?

2005-12-05 13:47:09
166.   Marty
There's a certain columnist who thinks 3 weeks is more than enough time to judge Flander's effectiveness.
2005-12-05 13:49:50
167.   molokai
164
I'm more then willing to give your left foot for him.
2005-12-05 13:50:09
168.   jasonungar05
yah I am with Molokai on this one.

78hr and 305rbi over the last 3 years does not equal 46hr and 176rbi.

Wow, I was gone from Friday afternoon until this morning with no computer. I am finally caught up.

2005-12-05 13:50:17
169.   Jon Weisman
163 - I can say as a Hollywood smallwig that there is no chance of it happening.

165, 166 - That came to mind when I read that question in 134. Not that I'm comparing any writer to the commenter.

2005-12-05 13:51:45
170.   Midwest Blue
152 - I hope that your comments were meant in the spirit of fanning discussion and not really serious because your proposal makes no sense at all. While I might entertain getting ramoN, he is in no shape to be considered a savior. Adding Bill Mueller at a reasonable price, tading for Zito and getting a big bat in the outfield through trade is all I still want for Christmas. If done right, we may only have to sacrifice money and two or three good prospects to get it done.
2005-12-05 13:54:30
171.   Steve
162 -- Bradley, Tiffany, and ????
2005-12-05 13:55:50
172.   Midwest Blue
171 ...Cody Ross.
2005-12-05 13:58:31
173.   Bob Timmermann
Sometimes with TV shows you just have to learn to let go. Not every show you like will stick around forever.

TV, like life, is not fair.

2005-12-05 14:00:10
174.   Rob M
161 I like the Kent for Milledge and Heilman rumor too. I also like the Kent for Young, Upton and Kazmir rumor that I just started.
2005-12-05 14:03:31
175.   blue22
170 - I don't see what Mueller brings to the table that Aybar/Perez don't, so that seems to be unnecessary.

And I just have a bad feeling that getting Zito is going to cost LA both Bradley and a prospect that'll sting. And what is Zito going to ask for as an extension - 4yrs/$40M? Higher? Seems like a lot, though I like him as a pitcher.

If Zito can be had for Milton plus a non-(Guzman/Billingsley/Martin/Broxton) prospect, and locked up for a reasonable extension, then I'd go ahead with it.

2005-12-05 14:09:50
176.   D4P
173
Sad but true.
2005-12-05 14:10:38
177.   Marty
Way off topic and kinda late, but I just saw a headline from a Pat Morita obit that said:

"Mr. Miyagi waxes off"

2005-12-05 14:11:26
178.   Sushirabbit
I don't know why you'd trade Kent, and get Zito. If you are actually trying to get to the playoffs in 2006, you'd keep Kent and get Zito for the year. Both are pretty consistent, so you know what you are going to get. Furcal is going to help, but I don't think he replaces Kent, so you'd have a big hole. I like the idea of Furcal, Drew, Kent, (Choi or Werth) all together in the lineup. If you are rebuilding, you can trade Kent, and use all the young talent, but why would you rent Zito?
2005-12-05 14:17:19
179.   Midwest Blue
I agree with 178.

175 -- I think we need some experience at the hot corner and one that can cut down on errors while waiting for kids to grow into the position. I think Mueller brings that at a reasonable price. I think he could hold down the position for two years while platooning with LaRoche. Neither Aybar or Perez are natural 3rd basemen. In fact, I'd listen to trades for either one of them. I don't know what a facial fracture is going to do to Perez' confidence around the plate next season.

2005-12-05 14:17:36
180.   KLV
What FA OFs are still on the market?
2005-12-05 14:20:22
181.   Midwest Blue
Damon, to start. He can be had for seven years at the basement price of the GDP of Latvia.
2005-12-05 14:23:32
182.   Sushirabbit
180 Manny?
2005-12-05 14:24:09
183.   the OZ
180 - Burnitz, Conine, Damon, Encarnacion, Grieve, Hidalgo, J Jones, B jordan, Lawton, Lofton, Mabry, O Palmeiro, Sander, Sosa, Tucker, P Wilson, to name notable players.
2005-12-05 14:25:18
184.   the OZ
Notable does not necessarily = good.
2005-12-05 14:25:21
185.   blue22
182 - Not a FA.

183 - Wow.

2005-12-05 14:25:26
186.   Sushirabbit
I see the Hardball Times Annual is out featuring the "Depo Era" article by Jon.

http://tinyurl.com/avq2g

2005-12-05 14:28:19
187.   Jon Weisman
I'm going to update the Dodger blogs portion of the sidebar this week - retiring the link to FJT, for example, and renaming the Depodesta for President link.

Any Dodger blogs out there that I should know about?

Also, just wondering, but has no one started a Heart and Soul blog, other than the one Tommy Naccarato did for a couple of days early this year?

2005-12-05 14:28:31
188.   MartinBillingsley31
On another board someone said they heard on espn that the proposed deal is bradley, billingsley, and another unknown prospect for zito.

I say no friggin way, do not trade billingsley.

2005-12-05 14:32:14
189.   D4P
187
http://firethemccourts.blogspot.com/

http://tommy.mlblogs.com/ (just kidding)

2005-12-05 14:33:05
190.   Sushirabbit
I know Manny is not a FA, just seems like the way to go after getting Furcal. I can't believe it will happen because of the money, but that's what I said about Furcal. I'm not sure I'd really wany him for the money he will cost, but WOW, what a potent lineup you'd have. Drew isn't dead, right?

I think there is still a lot that is going to happen. At this point I've changed from scared about Coletti, to guardedly optimistic... and maybe that's misplaced, maybe it's the four-mccourtsmen to whom I should give credit.

2005-12-05 14:33:38
191.   willhite
188 -

Might as well make Martin the other prospect. That way you could just shorten your name to Zito31

2005-12-05 14:34:02
192.   Bob Timmermann
181
The most recent figures from the IMF put the GDP of Latvia at 3,902,900,000 lats. That works up to about $6.5 billion.
2005-12-05 14:34:22
193.   Jon Weisman
186 - Ah, completely my fault, since I put off mentioning it too long, but you scooped my procastinated but planned post for later this week.

I can't reprint the article - which I do hope all of you will get to see - here for obvious reasons - but there was some research I did that the book didn't have room for, that I hope to be able to use on for a DT post. It was all very interesting.

2005-12-05 14:37:47
194.   Midwest Blue
192 With Boras involved, that sounds about right.
2005-12-05 14:40:08
195.   Bob Timmermann
I want to be paid in lats from now on.
2005-12-05 14:52:52
196.   underdog
I'd be happy to get Zito, for Bradley and someone, but if that someone is Billingsley* I may really become physically ill. God, please, Colletti, if you're reading this blog by some chance, please...

I thought the A's had a surplus of starting pitching and needed some offense - why would they want a pitching prospect instead of a hitting prospect?

*Unless that's Peter Billingsley from A Christmas Story, in which case, by all means!

Thanks for the Arrested Dev. reminder, btw, I'm setting my TiVo (have a soccer game at that time).

C

2005-12-05 14:54:50
197.   Steelyeri
Saw this at Benmaller.com and thought it was funny...

"Stephen A. Smith turned heads in the press box at the USC-UCLA game over the weekend when he showed up with a pair of body guards, according to a BenMaller.com mole.

Smith, host of the much-hyped but low-rated "Quite Frankly" (reportedly averaging a 0.2) on ESPN2, was covering the game with a pair of off-duty police officers by his side. When he went to the bathroom before half-time, one of the bodyguards walked into the men's room with him to make sure it was secure."

2005-12-05 14:55:28
198.   D4P
196
It's TiVo-ers like you who are responsible for the show getting cancelled...;)
2005-12-05 14:55:33
199.   Bob Timmermann
If you have a TiVo (which I don't, I have the generic one from Time-Warner) you can sign up to set the programming remotely through Yahoo TV now.
2005-12-05 14:56:37
200.   Bob Timmermann
197

Maybe he has a shy bladder?

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-12-05 14:57:27
201.   underdog
198. Heh. But I thought ratings could still track if someone's TiVoing it? Er, well, I'm not a Nielsen family member anyway... No, it's Fox execs who are responsible for canceling it, especially after moving it to Monday.
2005-12-05 14:58:31
202.   Jon Weisman
Yes, let's stop blaming TiVo.
2005-12-05 14:59:18
203.   Dello
has anyone done an analysis of the players in the Dodger system that may be vulnerable to the rule 5 draft? seems we have a lot of potential prospects but they can't all make the MLB roster. As a result, we may need to trade players rather than give them away. The other LA team seemed to be in that situation last year with respect to losing Jenks and another good player (?)
2005-12-05 14:59:46
204.   Bob Timmermann
I blame:

a) Paul DePodesta
b) Bill Plaschke
c) Liberal media conspiracy
d) Conservative media conspiracy

but the real enemy is the moderate media conspiracy.

2005-12-05 15:02:41
205.   Steelyeri
Don't think anyone has mentioned this SFgate article...

http://tinyurl.com/bmk5r

"Which brings us to another player the A's are targeting: Dodgers outfielder Milton Bradley. Ned Colletti, the Dodgers' GM, says he wants character guys, and Bradley is no Marquis Grissom. Colletti is making Bradley available, and sources in Dallas confirmed Sunday night that the A's are in hot pursuit.

The A's, deep in starting pitching, could offer Kirk Saarloos or lefty Joe Kennedy in a package. To part with Barry Zito -- not a necessity, Beane said -- the A's would need more of a sure thing."

2005-12-05 15:05:18
206.   Thomas Naccarato
187Well, I was all set to do it, then Bob started posting all of the great Dodger moments as per the LA Times archive, and it just seemed completely unneccessary. Just like its completely unneccessary for a heart & soul guy like myself to contribute here anymore! :)

Also, my unexpected eight week stay in the Hamptons also played a big part of it.

I haven't checked the rest of the postings, but did any of you see the latest ESPN rumor mongering?

Zito? Why do I suspect quaility young Dodger talent in an Atheltics uniform? (Zito is still signed to Oakland, correct?)

I'm going to grab those URL's quick before someone else does! Thanks for the suggestion.

2005-12-05 15:05:55
207.   molokai
Turnbow

Canuck did one and if I remember correctly he came away thinking that we wouldn't lose anyone that we'd terribly miss. Since he has about as much knowledge as anyone of our prospects I'll defer to him. I hate to see Carlos Alvarez exposed but I've yet to see his name pop up on sites who are talking about the best rule 5 players available.

2005-12-05 15:07:33
208.   Fern
You know who I would love to see in center? Jeremy Reed from Seattle. I know he wouldn't be available, but his minor league numbers were amazing and he looks like he'd be a great leadoff guy in front of Furcal.

I'd give up half the farm for Grady Sizemore.

2005-12-05 15:10:09
209.   molokai
werthless.com
mentalbradley.com
choiman.com
duiraffy.com
iamthebetteraybar.com
iwashere1stnavarro.com
wheredoesntithurtdrew.com
frigginfregosi.com
loweisinlove.com
2005-12-05 15:10:15
210.   Fern
208

Not much of a point to that post...just daydreaming out loud.

2005-12-05 15:10:34
211.   D4P
204
Yeah, the liberal and conservative medias are just pawns being played against each other by the elite moderate media. Kinda like how SPECTRE played the Americans and Russians in "From Russia With Love."
2005-12-05 15:13:37
212.   oldbear
Would taking Mark Kotsay back from the A's be worth it? Or is he useless at his salary/term?
2005-12-05 15:14:59
213.   CanuckDodger
#207 -- Marcos Carvajal, Matt Merricks, and Shane Victorino weren't on any of last year's lists for top Rule 5 draft candidates, yet all three were taken, while many names on the lists went unclaimed.
2005-12-05 15:15:18
214.   natepurcell
I personally dont find substance in the rumor billingsley is involved in a zito deal.

i mean, when there are rumors concerning the dodgers in trades, it always concerns our top prospects. like the drays rumor of billingsley, martin etc for toby hall and gathright.

2005-12-05 15:15:59
215.   Thomas Naccarato
211 And they are led by a EEEEEEE-vil man named Blowfeld.

theytoredodgerstadiumdownandputup a parkinglot.com

shannenanddrew.com (or is that old news now?)

2005-12-05 15:17:46
216.   Steelyeri
I heard an update guy at a sports station (didn't notice which one) this morning say as an update...

"The Dodgers have Furcal, but no one to manage him."

That was all he said on the subject, that could be interpreted a number of ways.

2005-12-05 15:18:05
217.   trainwreck
On ESPNews' Winter Meetings Special, they said Burnett is going to the Blue Jays for $55 million over 5 years.
2005-12-05 15:19:28
218.   blue22
205 - Juan Cruz and Jay Payton for Milton Bradley.

If Milton already has his one-way ticket out of town, and there is zero hope of him coming back, that's a realistic deal I would do. A starter in Cruz, a decent OFer in Payton as a 1 year rental.

2005-12-05 15:20:27
219.   Fern
217

Wow, it is Dreifort all over again.

2005-12-05 15:23:30
220.   molokai
For Nate's favorite unheralded prospect:

Michael Laureano, Diamond Futures, selects the best of the second base prospects and tabs Rickie Weeks MIL for the top slot. That likely comes as no surprise, but the runner-up might -- the Dodgers' Travis Denker. Dustin Pedroia BOS is No. 3. Howie Kendrick LAA ranks No. 6. I'm sure Michael will get a few notes about that !

More on Travis Denker LAD :

" ... While he may not have all the tools to attract national attention at this point, he's a very good player who does have all-star potential. Hitting with power and keeping patient at 19 in A ball isn't something to ignore, even though he's come from obscurity. Don't be surprised if by this time next year Denker is being touted as the Dodgers' second baseman of the future." (WarmOctoberNights)

" ... someone is impersonating Jeff Kent at the minor league level ... Denker really broke out this year to become a legitimate contender for a top 100 slot ... showed a great combination of power and plate discipline at the Low A level ... .973 OPS is great for an OF and incredible for a 2B. Two negatives though: Denker may be a man without a position. The Dodgers hope he can develop into an offensive 2B, but some scouts say that his range, arm, and hands limit him to LF or even DH. Ouch ... There's still a lot to like about this kid, but he's also got a lot to prove in 2006." (RotoAmerica)

2005-12-05 15:23:43
221.   blue22
217 - And the eery comparisons to Darren Dreifort continue...

Barry Zito's price also continues to climb. If Burnett, a 29-year old RH w/ a career 49-50 record, is worth that contract, what's a 27-year old, LH, former Cy Young-winner worth?

2005-12-05 15:23:56
222.   Sushirabbit
Sorry, to scoop on the HBT thing, Jon.

I keep looking at all the pieces that the Dodgers have and thinking, "that's a pretty good bunch." I'd be happy as it stands now if we could get one more good pitcher. I'd like Santana over Zito, but hey who am I kidding? Or alternatively, I can see spending some more dough/prospects on a High Caliber outfielder and going with the pitching we've got. I mean, by the grace of any deity you want to name, there's got to be some bounce back after those injuries... right? right?

I have this feeling Bob (or Paul, er, Steve) are going to say the Dodger's fate is ruled by Kali.

2005-12-05 15:24:21
223.   MartinBillingsley31
Pitching,pitching,pitching,pitching,pitching.
Just sign 2 free agent pitchers and be done with it, morris and 1 of washburn,millwood,weaver.
Oh also mueller for 3b.
We don't need to settle for jackson or houlton in our rotation, plus we need a backup or 2 incase of injuries.
And if billingsley is ready mid season, trade odalis perez at the trade deadline for any hole we might have.
Don't trade prospects.
2005-12-05 15:24:46
224.   natepurcell
id trade bradley for cruz and andre ethier.
2005-12-05 15:25:08
225.   King of the Hobos
Six Dodgers selected for the WBC: Gagne and Martin (Canada), Cruz and Ledee (Puerto Rico), Robles (Mexico), and Sanchez (Dominican Republic).
2005-12-05 15:25:09
226.   trainwreck
Dodgers get:Barry Zito, and Juan Cruz
A's get: Bradley, Tiffany, and Broxton
2005-12-05 15:26:15
227.   molokai
213
So who do you think will get nabbed from our system. Juarez, Hull, Stultze, Merrick, ALvarez, Megrew?
2005-12-05 15:26:49
228.   trainwreck
224-
I was trying to think of a deal to get Either and I think it would require us to have to give up someone like Elbert. Either is going to be able to help the A's out at some point this year, I doubt they part with him easily. They know they can get Bradley without giving him up.
2005-12-05 15:26:59
229.   blue22
224 - andre ethier

Who's he?

2005-12-05 15:27:33
230.   natepurcell
having jackson in the rotation isnt settling. its called "developing" young players.

you cant keep yanking his chain. let him pitch.

2005-12-05 15:29:02
231.   oldbear
I doubt Gagne will be ready to pitch for WBC.
2005-12-05 15:29:43
232.   King of the Hobos
Mike Piazza, David Dellucci, Frank Catalanotto, Mark DeRosa, Matt Mantei, Doug Mirabelli and Val Pascucci will play for the Italian team in the WBC. So I'm guessing there's not a strict country of citizenship/birth rule
2005-12-05 15:30:09
233.   MartinBillingsley31
230
Develop in the minors not the majors.

He's not ready.

2005-12-05 15:30:32
234.   molokai
I think Zito ends up somewhere other then LA.

We all seem to like Juan Cruz but isn't it curious that Beane who knows young pitching would rather shell out 7.5 mill for Loaiza then give Cruz a spot in the rotation?

2005-12-05 15:30:34
235.   natepurcell
ethier is an outfielder in the A's system. drafted in the second round out in the 2003 draft. hes been a little old at each level of competition but these are his stats from AA this year at age 23. hes 6'2 205ish and bats lefthanded.

505ABs 18hr 48bb 93k

319/.385/.497

2005-12-05 15:31:02
236.   trainwreck
Houlton will be as effective as Odalis if you ask me so I will take a warm body in exchange for Odalis. I still have hope Edwin can show us something this year. Hopefully he is working out hard with Gagne which will help him stay healthy.
2005-12-05 15:31:37
237.   natepurcell
jackson is ready to be given the 5th spot all year next yr.

when he wasnt bothered by back spasms, he pitched pretty good in his callup.

2005-12-05 15:32:24
238.   molokai
Your putting to much value on Ethier. He is not close to being ready for the bigs.
2005-12-05 15:33:38
239.   trainwreck
How many countries are in the WBC? I am a mutt so maybe I can go play for a country that has no players at all and I will get to walk to the batter's box and watch Roger Clemens strike me out in three pitches as I try not to pee my pants.
2005-12-05 15:34:59
240.   King of the Hobos
236 Does 2004 mean nothing? Perez can actually pitch, especially on even years. The widespread desire to get rid of him doesn't make much sense to me (unless we're getting rid of his contract and actually have someone proven to replace him)
2005-12-05 15:35:44
241.   natepurcell
well i never said ethier would start for us next year. Hes just a nice OF prospect that i take in a return for bradley.
2005-12-05 15:35:57
242.   blue22
I'll still take the top 3 of Penny, Lowe, OPerez with the 4 and 5 filled out with a list that could include:

EJackson
Billingsley
Heilman
Cruz
Houlton

Houlton is not guaranteed a roster spot this year, which was a major advantage for him last year.

2005-12-05 15:36:10
243.   King of the Hobos
239 16. If you're part South African, you could have a good chance to make a team
2005-12-05 15:36:57
244.   trainwreck
238-
Michael Urban who talks with Beane all the time and knows the A's well says they think Either can be ready sometime this year. AN is down right now but I remember him saying something like that in a chat with them.
2005-12-05 15:39:14
245.   natepurcell
anyone who follows the A's, is ethier the second best prospect behind barton? or does meyer still hold that rank?

maybe we should get flyer on meyer in a bradley deal..

2005-12-05 15:40:49
246.   trainwreck
I see Odalis as a 4+ era pitcher for the rest of his career. I could be horribly wrong, but he just looked really bad to me last year and not someone that is going to age well (I question his work ethic).
2005-12-05 15:43:49
247.   trainwreck
Either is right now the second (though there is a lot of positive talk for the high school pitchers they drafted last year like Liriano) best prospect for the A's. Everyone thinks Meyer can bounce backand it was injuries that affected him last year, but there is definitely worrying going about him that has dropped his stock. Meyer MUST make a good showing this year to be valued as a potential starter again.
2005-12-05 15:48:41
248.   Steelyeri
Peter Gammons' top ten Free Agents...

1. A.J. Burnett
2. Johny Damon
3. Trevor Hoffman
4. Kevin Millwood
5. Jaque Jones
6. Matt Morris
7. Mark Grudzielanek
8. Jeff Weaver
9. Jarrod Washburn
10. Bill Mueller

2005-12-05 15:49:35
249.   natepurcell
are those.. top 10 free agents left?
2005-12-05 15:54:04
250.   MartinBillingsley31
248
We need 3 of those top ten, mueller, morris and either washburn or millwood or weaver.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-12-05 15:54:37
251.   Steelyeri
Yes
2005-12-05 15:54:43
252.   trainwreck
I am surprised how often I have read Andy Marte's name being dangled out there for pitching and ss help for the Braves. You know Schuerholz we have Brazoban and Izturis if you want...
2005-12-05 15:54:54
253.   Steelyeri
249.

Yes

2005-12-05 15:56:12
254.   trainwreck
Let's give the Pirates Bradley and Aybar (they want a third baseman) for Ian Snell.
2005-12-05 15:57:00
255.   trainwreck
I think Morris is going to get overpaid I am not sure why everyone wants him (aside from the fact he has a beard).
2005-12-05 16:01:46
256.   Steve
I thought Katie Holmes was dating Tom Cruise.
2005-12-05 16:04:43
257.   Marty
Either it's Ethier or it's Either. I'm getting confused
2005-12-05 16:08:17
258.   Xeifrank
221. I don't think W/L record is a very good way to evaluate a pitchers worth. vr, Xei
2005-12-05 16:10:37
259.   Xeifrank
254. Heck, let's give the Pirates Phillips, Robles and Repko... I hear their manager is really high on those three players. :)
vr, Xei
2005-12-05 16:10:55
260.   trainwreck
255-
Unless we can give him a two year deal. I am all about the short term big money deals now. Let the Dodgers be the innovative team for once.
2005-12-05 16:10:59
261.   Bob Timmermann
256

I always take along an ultrasound machine on my dates.

2005-12-05 16:18:46
262.   blue22
258 - I know that, and you know that, but don't tell me that his agent won't factor that into his price.

Zito has a far better resume than Burnett, and Burnett is about to sign a "Dreifort". Has nothing to do with his "ability", everything to do with his "worth".

2005-12-05 16:20:29
263.   natepurcell
players signing a driefort is not a good precedent for the future of AJ burnett.
2005-12-05 16:23:04
264.   King of the Hobos
Yusaku Iriki has been released so he can pursue a career in the US (no one bid when he was posted last month). He could be worth a minor league contract

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=919

Rosenthal says the Indians are close to signing Hoffman for more than Loaiza is getting. There aren't a lot of good closers left, but the Indians have 2-3 guys in their pen that could close for under a million

2005-12-05 16:27:20
265.   trainwreck
260-
The innovative part was supposed to be sarcastic btw.
2005-12-05 16:28:44
266.   molokai
JP has taken his owners money and just wasted it this winter. Other then Vernon Wells he has no impact bats at the Major league level and he has no impact bat at the minor league level. Tampa Bay is going to bust a move on them and take 3rd place after they get done moving Lugo/Hall/Gaththright/Huff/Baez they should have enough pitching to make it happen.
2005-12-05 16:29:08
267.   dzzrtRatt
256 No, he's purchased her outright.
2005-12-05 16:38:33
268.   Dello
at what point is a player in the minor league system exposed to the Rule 5 if he is not on the 40-man roster? The reason I ask, is why does it make sense to protect players like Edwards, Grabowski, etc. on the 40-man if it possibly exposes a prospect?
2005-12-05 16:39:03
269.   natepurcell
some someone on an A's board is saying A's are offering up joe kennedy for Bradley.
2005-12-05 16:40:40
270.   dzzrtRatt
This is an outrage.

http://tinyurl.com/bqd7s

Did we screw up and somehow forget to nominate you?

2005-12-05 16:41:22
271.   FirstMohican
221 - If Burnett, a 29-year old RH w/ a career 49-50 record, is worth that contract, what's a 27-year old, LH, former Cy Young-winner worth?

Careful not to confuse JP with BB. =)

2005-12-05 16:45:05
272.   Bob Timmermann
270

I took out a fullpage ad in "Variety" and another in the "Hollywood Reporter" for Jon..

"For Your Consideration ...."

2005-12-05 16:52:16
273.   sanchez101
271. he was making a comparison that agents will make, not confusing billy beane with ricciardi
2005-12-05 16:57:49
274.   Bob Timmermann
Today's mind blowing thing I never knew before:

desiccate

I always spelled it "dessicate"

I'm glad it was never in a spelling bee for me.

2005-12-05 16:59:16
275.   D4P
East Coast Arrested Development time!
2005-12-05 17:14:23
276.   blue22
273 - We had an earlier conversation about this, so there's context to it. :-)

Zito will now be looking to sign a Dreifort for an extension, you can bet on that. Is Zito worth 5 yrs/$55M, and Milton, and a heavy prospect or two? Ugh.

2005-12-05 17:15:41
277.   natepurcell
zito, a nonexistent injury history might break the driefort curse!
2005-12-05 17:20:54
278.   KLV
I'm a bit surprised the A's are so interested in Bradley given that they already have Mark Kotsay signed for the next 3 years and he is a very good CF. Bradley as a corner OF is no great shakes; a lot of his value is (was?) his ability to play a very good CF. If he can get Bradley for Saarloos/Kennedy, then I understand. But I don't see why he'd give up someone like Zito in a deal centered around Bradley.
2005-12-05 17:25:04
279.   blue22
278 - That's why the prospects are so important to the deal (it's not "Zito for Milton"). And if that's the case, I say keep Bradley and go all prospects for Zito.
2005-12-05 17:26:38
280.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
103"What Oakland does for young pitchers is put them on the pitching staff and keep them there."

True, but they take it a little farther than that. They are VERY careful with young pitchers' arms, monitoring innings pitched, pitch count, etc. Beane has been quoted as saying players' health, specifically that of pitchers, is the next big area that can be exploited by innovative teams.

In the same vein, I think Burnett gets a bum rap by being written off as injury prone. Didn't most of his injuries come after Jeff Torborg's "pitch them until their arms explode" managerial stint? Few young pitchers would have gotten through his repeated 140-pitch outings intact; doesn't mean Burnett won't be an ace under better care. He sure as hell has the stuff to be.

2005-12-05 17:28:06
281.   blue22
Per Stark and "Rumblings":

Abreu for Vernon Wells/Gustavo Chacin
Abreu for Trot Nixon/Matt Clement
Abreu for Brandon Backe/Chad Qualls

I'm thinking that LA can put together a package better than any of those 3. It would appear that TOR's offer is the top so far.

2005-12-05 17:30:11
282.   Fallout
278. KLV
But I don't see why he'd give up someone like Zito in a deal centered around Bradley.

Because he feels badly about recommending DePodesta.

2005-12-05 17:34:01
283.   MartinBillingsley31
Has anyone read or heard that kent has agreed to play 1b, because there is a thread at dodgers.com that say someone heard it on a radio station?

I hope its not true.

2005-12-05 17:34:12
284.   Steve
Abreu for Houlton and Brazoban!
2005-12-05 17:40:26
285.   blue22
Phils want a starter for Abreu, which is understandable. I think it's odd that an OF is being featured in each trade considering their current roster. They currently have Burrell, Rowand, and Michaels (the 30-year old phenom!) as starters in the OF (post-Abreu).
2005-12-05 17:41:08
286.   fanerman
283 - No no no no no. I'M NOT LISTENING!!!
2005-12-05 17:41:10
287.   Uncle Miltie
Has anyone read or heard that kent has agreed to play 1b, because there is a thread at dodgers.com that say someone heard it on a radio station?

I hope its not true.
It probably is...on the condition that Bradley is traded. Does that make Willy Aybar our starting 2B?

2005-12-05 17:41:33
288.   fanerman
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO
2005-12-05 17:41:50
289.   Izzy
283.
It was mentioned on the Dodger home page 3 or 4 days ago that Kent was probably going to be moved to first. It also said that LaRoche or Guzman would likely be brought up to play third.
2005-12-05 17:44:38
290.   blue22
This one's for you Steve.

Florida is asking in exchange for Juan Pierre:

Cubs - uberprospect Felix Pie
ChiSox - top prospect Brandon McCarthy
Tex - either John Danks or Thomas Diamond (aka the guys the Rangers wouldn't trade for Josh Beckett)

The infamous "unnamed source" says:

"Somebody is going to have to move a hell of a [young player] to get this guy," said an official of one team involved in these discussions. "If not, there are so many teams, somebody else will give up that [kind of player]."

2005-12-05 17:44:50
291.   MartinBillingsley31
That would suck.

Just leave choi at 1b, kent at 2b, furcal at ss, and sign mueller for 3b or bring up guzman or laroche for 3b.

2005-12-05 17:48:58
292.   Steve
I read they wanted Eric Duncan from the Yankees. I'm sure they asked us for either Guzman or Billingsley. Of course, they've been rooking people left and right, so you can forgive them a little hubris.
2005-12-05 17:50:11
293.   Javier Gutierrez
Anybody know the park factors for Turner Field? 2B, 3B and HR?
2005-12-05 17:51:26
294.   blue22
2005 - OBP/SLG/OPS

Juan Pierre: .326/.354/.680
Jason Marquis: .326/.460/.786

It means nothing due to sample sizes, but Felix Pie? Really, Florida? That's who you want for Pierre?

2005-12-05 17:54:50
295.   trainwreck
Odalis + Tiffany for Abreu
That Backe deal is laughably bad.
2005-12-05 17:58:15
296.   natepurcell
i wouldnt take any of those deals if i were the phillies.

if i had to choose, i would take the toronto deal, only to flip vernon wells to somewhere else.

2005-12-05 17:58:47
297.   Steve
What kind of world do we live in where you can spread rumors about:

Abreu for Qualls and Backe

and

Pierre and Pie/McCarthy/Diamond?

Conclusions:

1) People making stuff up.
2) People in baseball are stupid.
3) Both.

I vote for 3. Why would you make up stupid rumors unless the underlying actors were stupid?

2005-12-05 17:58:52
298.   fanerman
Ugh... Might as well package Choi with Milton...
2005-12-05 18:03:12
299.   D4P
298
Like I said...(see 118)
2005-12-05 18:04:03
300.   trainwreck
Apparently XM MLB Radio is saying Bradley to the A's for Joe Kennedy...please not be true! please not be true!
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-12-05 18:07:27
301.   natepurcell
soo... does anyone know anything about edible knowledge and how Lakatos' viewpoint on research programs relates to it?
2005-12-05 18:08:10
302.   sanchez101
id be ok with milton for kennedy, id rather have kennedy than many of the FA starters
2005-12-05 18:08:58
303.   sanchez101
301 ... all in know is finals suck
2005-12-05 18:09:06
304.   natepurcell
how old is kennedy and when can he become a FA?
2005-12-05 18:09:51
305.   Vishal
[82] the guy is and has always been healthy. he has a great exercise regimen. there's no reason to think he is more likely than anyone else to get hurt. also, which of his peripherals are declining exactly?

[89-91] 135
repeating it 3 times doesn't make it true :) zito is MUCH better than derek lowe, and while he is overvalued, ALL pitchers are overvalued. sure, zito is no johan santana, but he'd be most teams' best starter, and that includes the dodgers.

2005-12-05 18:10:10
306.   natepurcell
i wish it was a final. but its the topic of a paper i have to write. id rather take a test then write a paper right now.
2005-12-05 18:11:36
307.   Vishal
[295] what backe deal?
2005-12-05 18:11:56
308.   dzzrtRatt
This "Kent would play first" idea has been around for a week, or at least since the Furcal idea was broached. It's not new news.

Colletti was sourced as having suggested this would happen if we got Furcal and if Izturis returned healthy -- so he could play second. Colletti said he would discuss it with Kent before deciding.

The conclusion is:

-- Choi's got at least two months of the regular season to make enough of an impression that Colletti changes his mind, because Izturis is not due back til mid-year.

-- My speculation was that this is all a way for the Dodgers to appear like they are still committed to Izzy, who the front office seems to think is beloved by the same fans who mourned the loss of LoDuca.

If Choi doesn't cut the mustard next season, what's the objection? And if he does, why do you think it would happen? Have you forgotten the old adage?

"Man plans, Choi laughs."

2005-12-05 18:12:24
309.   natepurcell
the rumored backe/qualls for abreu.

shouldnt it be at least backe and lidge for abreu?

2005-12-05 18:12:32
310.   trainwreck
He is 26 I know that.
2005-12-05 18:13:02
311.   Vishal
oh, never mind, i see it in 281
2005-12-05 18:15:10
312.   Steve
Does that mean we can get Chase Utley for Houlton and Schmoll?
2005-12-05 18:15:43
313.   Vishal
[309] astros fans would riot in the streets of houston if lidge got traded.
2005-12-05 18:16:44
314.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I can live with Kennedy for Bradley straight-up.

I think a lot of posters here are overvaluing Bradley. The issue is not so much his character problems, but the fact that he's never played a full MLB season, and he's currently rehabbing from serious knee surgery. He seems to also have chronic hamstring issues, which is a real problem for a player who bases much of his value on the fact that he's a CF with good defense. Beane knows all this, and he's not going to give you a Zito straight up for Bradley, unless we can include prospects we don't want to give up.

WWSH

2005-12-05 18:17:04
315.   trainwreck
I do not like the idea of us giving the A's Bradley for Kennedy when the A's got Kennedy and Witasick for Byrnes. Bradley is much better than Eric Byrnes.
2005-12-05 18:17:08
316.   dzzrtRatt
300 Why would we want Kennedy more than Houlton/Billingsley/Jackson? What's he likely to deliver?

It should be Bradley for Kennedy + a decent outfield prospect.

From the rumor stream it sounds like Beane realizes he can't use our Milton Bradley problems as a way to steal Billingsley, so he's taken Zito off the table for LA. In short, if we want Zito, Billingsley is the real price. Good on Neddy if he told Beane to shove it.

2005-12-05 18:21:14
317.   natepurcell
if kennedy can keep his walks down, he is actually a decent pitcher that could get better since hes kind of young.

but i would still ask for a prospect from the A's. or maybe jairo garcia. ned gets his left handed bullpen arm.

bradley for kennedy+garcia

odalis+schmoll for wilkerson

2005-12-05 18:22:30
318.   Vishal
jairo isn't left-handed. unless you see kennedy in the bullpen.
2005-12-05 18:23:32
319.   natepurcell
hmm, you are right he isnt. okay backto the drawing board!
2005-12-05 18:24:23
320.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 315

Is that still true, if we factor in Bradley's injury history? Bradley's talent is indisputable, but he sees even more brittle than Drew so far, which is saying a lot. And IIRC, Beane would only have Bradley for a year. Furthermore, McCourt for better or for worse has telegraphed our desire to trade Bradley--every team knows this, and there's little Ned can do about it.

Re: 316

Kennedy is by no means all that, but he gives us some SP depth, which we need with Weaver leaving. He pitched okay in Oakland, and Dodger Stadium will also help, along with the absence of the DH. His ERA+ in Oakland was 101; wasn't Weaver's something like 97?

WWSH

2005-12-05 18:26:20
321.   Vishal
the only thing close to a LOOGY they might have is flores, but i don't know how good or dependable he might be.

btw nate, you still haven't explained how zito's peripherals are declining...

2005-12-05 18:27:33
322.   Linkmeister
I nominated Jon for that best sports blog award a few days ago and mentioned it here(somewhere early in a post's comments, I think).
2005-12-05 18:28:49
323.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Also, in 2004, Kennedy posted an ERA+ of 138 in 162 innings in Colorado. He's also 26 so it's not as if he doesn't have any upside.

WWSH

2005-12-05 18:32:14
324.   sanchez101
the kennedy-bradley trade seems odd from Oaklands point of view, why would you trade a potential starter for a CF when you already have Kotsay and youre about to trade Zito?
2005-12-05 18:32:26
325.   dsfan
Didn't Izturis recently help the LAD win their first NL West title since 1995?

He's a good shortstop who showed remarkable improvement at the plate in 2004. He got off to a pretty good start in 2005, as I recall, before the hamstring injuries, then the elbow problem.

Reading this stuff, you'd think Choi was an All-Star and that it was Izturis, of the two, who's never helped the LAD win a division.

Izzy just turned 25. He's done some nice things for the LAD. Sad that people on an LAD forum deride him and give him no credit.

If Ned likes Izzy, he's got plenty of company in MLB.

Just a great trade by Dan Evans to get Izzy. Too bad about the elbow. Hope he can make it back.

2005-12-05 18:34:38
326.   trainwreck
With Bradley gone, it means another outfielder and bat to replace. Granted Bradley might not contribute at the beginning of the season, but he can still be a good player. I saw Kennedy pitch with the A's and one can see his numbers and it just gives us another mediocre starter, like we need another one of those.
2005-12-05 18:34:43
327.   Dello
I can't decide if I would rather get Kennedy for Bradley, in which case we would be on our way to forming a great offensive line (assuming Penney and Broxton are guard and tackle, respectively) or take Saarloos for Bradley. He's kind of a flyweight and doesn't strike anyone out, but his #s look pretty decent and Beane doesn't have room for him either in his lineup.
2005-12-05 18:35:32
328.   natepurcell
well, his peripherals were declining until second half of this year. then he turned it around somehow.

I think i heard that he developed a new pitch, a slider/cutter to nuetralize righties or something? is that accurate?

2005-12-05 18:36:43
329.   trainwreck
324-
Because Kennedy is going to come out of the bullpen for them. They have Haren, Harden, Blanton, Loaiza, Zito. Okay take Zito out and they still have Saarloos, Cruz, Meyer, and I bet they get a good young pitcher in return for Zito, so they have the depth to trade pitching. Kennedy was actually good out of the bullpen for the A's.
2005-12-05 18:37:16
330.   Vishal
[325] ok, izturis is a good shortstop. but why would we need him AND furcal in the lineup?
2005-12-05 18:38:09
331.   natepurcell
re 330

so we can form the most acrobatic/dazzling Middle infields ever?

2005-12-05 18:38:11
332.   trainwreck
Maybe I should look at this from my A's fan perspective and realize I get to keep rooting for Bradley and just lose a bullpen arm.
2005-12-05 18:40:37
333.   trainwreck
And the reason the A's does this is because they can move Swisher to first base and Dan Johnson to DH.
2005-12-05 18:41:41
334.   D4P
331
I thought that was Izturis and Cora...
2005-12-05 18:42:41
335.   Vishal
[328]

half a season doesn't make for a projectable trend, though. his K rate, walk rate, hit rate, BAA, they're all pretty consistent. he does tend to walk more than i'd like, but from watching him, i feel like a lot of that is that umpires are very inconsistent about how they call his curve, and that's his bread and butter pitch. he usually isn't wild with it, but some days he gets the call his way and some days he doesn't.

and yeah, that's right. from what i understand he's also incorporated a 4-seamer that comes up high like the curve but then doesn't drop. he's a very smart pitcher who constantly tries to hone his skills and improve his game.

2005-12-05 18:43:02
336.   blue22
I'd take Cruz over Kennedy or Saarloos. And if they give us Payton or Kotsay, it (sorta) solves the missing outfielder problem LA would have, and the excess Oakland would be faced with.
2005-12-05 18:44:44
337.   dsfan
Vishal,

Your statement that Izzy is a good shortstop is far kinder than what I'm accustomed to seeing on this board. And that's my point. He deserves more respect than he gets here.

As for the Izzy/Furcal dyamics, I think concerns there are premature since Izzy's return is so distant and the medicals are thin on a shorstop coming back from TJ surgery.

2005-12-05 18:45:12
338.   dsfan
Vishal,

Your statement that Izzy is a good shortstop is far kinder than what I'm accustomed to seeing on this board. And that's my point. He deserves more respect than he gets here.

As for the Izzy/Furcal dyamics, I think concerns there are premature since Izzy's return is so distant and the medicals are thin on a shorstop coming back from TJ surgery.

2005-12-05 18:46:28
339.   dsfan
Sorry about repeating that post.
2005-12-05 18:50:45
340.   natepurcell
izzy is a good defensive shortstop.

i wont go beyond that.

2005-12-05 18:51:12
341.   Vishal
well, i enjoy watching izturis, and he makes some dazzling plays at shortstop, and it seems like he was improving at the plate until he got injured... but the fact is that he's still a no-power slap hitter who can't really take a walk or steal a base. and now that we've signed furcal, who is a decided improvement, izturis is kind of the odd man out. it just doesn't make any sense to get a hitter like choi, who has a much better bat than izturis, out of the lineup and move 2 players out of position (kent and izturis), just to get izturis in there.
2005-12-05 18:56:02
342.   Dello
I agree with the pro Izzy argument for the most part. And add that I feel the opposite about Choi. He should be a DH in the AL. You'd think Beane would be interested if he trusted Depos opinion.
2005-12-05 18:58:09
343.   Vishal
dello, would you say paul konerko is a legit first baseman?
2005-12-05 18:59:36
344.   Dello
haven't seen him play on a day-to-day basis to give an opinion on Konerko, but I know what I've seen with the Chopper.
2005-12-05 19:01:10
345.   regfairfield
And with that, an angel gets his wings
2005-12-05 19:01:59
346.   Vishal
well, i for one have seen some good picks and accurate throws. maybe not a ton of range, but hey, nobody's perfect.
2005-12-05 19:02:21
347.   Vishal
[345] LOL
2005-12-05 19:03:49
348.   dsfan
Nate,

Without getting into the Furcal/Izzy debate, I'm sticking up for Izzy a little here on a forum that often dismisses him.

Good defense at a premium position is a good thing, no? (Frankly, I think his defense was VERY GOOD in 2004, and yes, I've heard from the sabermetricians on this point.)

Izzy's improvement at the plate in 2004 was pretty impressive. It's not his fault that Tracy batted him first so often and almost never rested him.

In 2005, Izzy appeared to build on that improvement.

He had an .818 OPS entering June 2. A few days later, the hamstring problems began. That's pretty good stuff: A 25-year-old SS, coming off a good season in which a great deal was asked of him, delivered more strong defense and an .818 OPS even as Tracy kept him in the No. 1 spot.

I wouldn't sweat the Furcal/Izzy/Kent/Choi dynamics for 2006, by the way. With the medicals on Izzy, it's not a pressing issue. What happens on the field will shape this scene long before Izzy is full go.

2005-12-05 19:06:15
349.   natepurcell
wells for choi?

mlb.com has that rumor..

2005-12-05 19:08:06
350.   Vishal
please be vernon, please be vernon....
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-12-05 19:09:00
351.   D4P
350
Or even Bonzi...
2005-12-05 19:09:38
352.   Dello
Let's face it, JT had his flaws but I don't think he was crazy. So if he's trotting Phillips, Grabowski and others out to 1b last year ahead of our man Chopper, something had to be wrong with the guy. Every time a ball was hit to his right he didn't seem to know which direction to go. I could seem him freeze. I think JT was making a similar statement with Perez last year considering the playing time he doled out to Edwards, Robles, etc. Or was he just nuts?
2005-12-05 19:10:39
353.   D4P
I'm gonna go out on a limb right now and just state once and for all that it's a foregone conclusion that Choi will not be the first baseman for the Dodgers next year.
2005-12-05 19:12:30
354.   Vishal
[352] he was just nuts. or stupid. or both.
2005-12-05 19:19:42
355.   natepurcell
bradley for Sarloos?
http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051205&content_id=1276725&vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

A's fans, can you give me a scouting report of Sarloos. would we need another outfield prospect?

sarloos and ethier?

2005-12-05 19:21:20
356.   natepurcell
wow, his krate last year was 2.99

uhh.... thats not good...

2005-12-05 19:21:57
357.   natepurcell
k:bb ratio of 53:54

thats not very good either. argh..

2005-12-05 19:32:03
358.   Vishal
he's an extreme groundball pitcher (last year 2.34 G/F, career 2.28 G/F)

unlike derek lowe last year though, he doesn't give up many homers. unfortunately he's about a 6-inning pitcher though. not a bad #5 guy, but nothing more than that.

2005-12-05 19:35:27
359.   Uncle Miltie
Groundball pitcher, throws 85-87 mph sinker, gets very few strikeouts, doesn't give up many home runs, pretty decent control.

With a K/9 rate of 2.99, he was very lucky. He had great defense behind him. I think he'd be better as a reliever. I'd rather have Kennedy than Saarloos, but I'd also rather have Bradley over either of them. If Ned has made up his mind that's he going to trade Bradley, I'd go after Juan Cruz. The guy is ready to bust out. He showed that he can be an effective reliever with the Braves. He stunk when he was with Oakland, but when they sent him down to the minors, he was dominating, posting these numbers:
2.40 ERA 75 IP 51 H 4 HR 28 BB 90 K 1.05 WHIP

Juan Cruz and prospect for Bradley? Still not a good deal though...

2005-12-05 19:36:12
360.   Vishal
anyway, i've got nothing against saarloos, but i don't think the dodgers need another pitch-to-contact, sinkerball kind of starter. i want to get a guy who can miss some bats and strike some fools out.
2005-12-05 19:37:48
361.   D4P
Tidbits from Dodgers.com:

1. Kent had an MRI on his wrist, which revealed "irritated scar tissue." Not considered serious.
2. Once again: "...when Cesar Izturis returns from elbow surgery at mid-season, he will be asked to move to second base and Kent will be asked to move to first base."
3. Flanders said there have been "a lot" of teams asking about Bradley.
4. Regarding Furcal, Flanders confirmed that a perceived shift in the style of Major League offense from power to speed and athleticism was "part of the thought process, as were length of the contract. Speed is a lost art in the game."
5. Dodgers are still interested in Juan Pierre.

http://tinyurl.com/arecm

2005-12-05 19:39:53
362.   dzzrtRatt
JT had his flaws but I don't think he was crazy.

Tracy has said it made him upset to look around the clubhouse and see all his 'team leaders' like LoDuca and Dave Roberts gone without any acknowledgement from DePodesta of how their leadership helped the Dodgers win. In their place: Penny and Choi. Tracy couldn't take it out on Penny, so his wrath settled on Choi--who didn't help his own cause by starting his Dodger career with a long slump.

By not playing Choi, and then by telling the media all the reasons he didn't play him, i.e. no savvy, unable to hit pitches thrown at certain arm angles, Tracy was able to mock and degrade DePodesta without doing so directly. It was classic and transparent passive-aggressive behavior.

So--no Tracy's not crazy. But he's neurotic, and his neuroses hurt the team last year.

2005-12-05 19:42:10
363.   Vishal
gah, come on. speed is not an art. it's not even a skill, really. it's an attribute.

whyyyyy would we need to have pierre and furcal?

if all these other teams want bradley, that is, if he is so desirable, then why should we give him away?

2005-12-05 19:42:41
364.   CanuckDodger
357 -- But his name is "Saarloos." Who cares about things like pretty stats or even ability when you have a chance to get a funky cool name like that on your roster! I can say it all night: "S-a-a-a-r-l-o-o-o-o-s."
2005-12-05 19:45:56
365.   D4P
363
That was my thought too. If SO many teams want Bradley, Flanders should be able to get something for him. He should be dealing from a position of strength, not weakness.
2005-12-05 19:58:14
366.   Vishal
on the other hand, i think so many teams are interested in him because they think we are desperate to get rid of him and therefore they will be able to fleece us.
2005-12-05 20:01:00
367.   dsfan
Folks,

How do you know so many clubs want Bradley and, more to the point, that they want to give up good value for him?

Given Bradley's brittleness, surgical knee, emotional baggage, arbitration status and possibility of getting non-tendered, it's likely that the LAD are getting weak offers for Bradley.

It's also likely that the LAD are embellishing just how much interest there is in Bradley in an attempt to bid up the price.

One can hope that Colletti entered this process with a good fallback in mind: Namely, unless a decent (not great) trade can be done, hold onto Bradley and assume that he regains full healthy in March/April. From there, he should at least build his value to its present, paltry state.

2005-12-05 20:02:16
368.   D4P
Simer's latest points out that Furcal is the "worst active hitter in all of Major League Baseball with at least 50 at-bats when it comes to performing in Dodger Stadium."

He notes that "Paul DePodesta's computer would have known that, but you have to admire the instincts of the Dodgers' new general manager, Ned Colletti, who is old school and just has a feel for this kind of thing — landing the worst instead of maybe the fourth or fifth worst."

http://tinyurl.com/8ddwj

2005-12-05 20:16:34
369.   still bevens
I'd pay good money to see what kind of scrubs Simers would throw out if he were a GM.
2005-12-05 20:19:44
370.   Steve
Crazy.
2005-12-05 20:22:10
371.   Nagman
If it's July, and Izturis is ready, and we're in a situation where we actually do this Izzy-to-second-Kent-to-first thing, things can't be going all that well, can it?

I would hope that whoever is playing first is doing well enough that this change can't be made and Izturis is a reserve infielder the rest of the season.

2005-12-05 20:23:46
372.   D4P
370
Someone needs to do a better job of indicating where his comments are directed.
2005-12-05 20:26:18
373.   D4P
Milton Bradley could be on his way to the A's for right-hander Kirk Saarloos and left-hander Mario Ramos.
Rumors are floating that it's a done deal. The A's official site says only that the team has offered Saarloos and another player to the Dodgers for Bradley.Dec. 5 - 11:09 pm et
- Rotoworld
2005-12-05 20:27:14
374.   dsfan
Again, not worth sweating the Izzy-Furcal-Kent-Choi dyanamics. Way, way to much will happen between now and then too get worked up over it.
2005-12-05 20:28:37
375.   bigcpa
355 This trade blows. Ramos was a prospect 5 years ago. Saarloos is a downgrade from Houlton. Obviously keeping Bradley was never an option because this amounts to a DFA.
2005-12-05 20:30:39
376.   Steve
372 -- Kind of multi-purpose.
2005-12-05 20:31:25
377.   dsfan
my to and too typing needs work.
2005-12-05 20:33:28
378.   dzzrtRatt
368 The Times is running a little clinic on "The Unaccountability of the Press." Frank McCourt was supposed to take it but he dropped out.

Pretty soon, Simers is going to be licking DePodesta's computer. When it helps the A's.

2005-12-05 20:37:46
379.   D4P
378
I kinda like the idea of Depo reuniting with Beane. I actually think Depo might prefer the budget constraints that Oakland faces over the relatively large pot of money available to spend in LA.
2005-12-05 20:41:08
380.   Steve
379 -- Not to mention those priceless moments when you say "You can have Saarloos or Kennedy" with a straight face, and the other guy says Saarloos.
2005-12-05 20:53:42
381.   Ken Arneson
Scouting report on Saarloos is very simple: sinker, sinker, sinker. If he keeps the ball at the knees, he's a pretty darn good pitcher. If the pitches are up around the belt...whack!

He can have trouble if the umpire has a high strike zone. In one game against Cleveland, the ump was giving him strikes six inches below the knees...he was darn near unhittable.

He's a useful pitcher. He can start or relieve, and seems to be equally effective in either role. And he's only 26, so that ain't bad, either. It's not like he's 33.

Mario Ramos: that's gotta be a mistake. Who would want Mario Ramos? John Rheinecker, now that would make more sense.

2005-12-05 20:58:47
382.   Andrew Shimmin
Izturis is a pretty good SS who doesn't hit much. That's his peak potential value. Turn him in to a 2B and you leach off most of the difference between him and Alex Cora. It's like turning Jason Phillips in to a 1B, not to put too fine a point on it.

Is the Izzy fan Speaking-Truth-To-Power moment going to be a daily thing, now?

2005-12-05 21:02:33
383.   Steve
381 -- Fantastic. Another sinker-ball pitcher. And let me guess. He'll be "perfect for Dodger Stadium."
2005-12-05 21:12:39
384.   Ken Arneson
383 I don't think it matters too much where Saarloos pitches. Well--artificial turf would probably be bad for him. But what matters more is where he's putting the ball in the strike zone, and who is playing infield defense behind him. Having Furcal's cannon in the 5.5 hole behind him will be a good thing, methinks.
2005-12-05 21:16:08
385.   Steve
384 -- I'm a little cynical. I've heard all this, somewhere, before...something about sinkerball pitchers and the defense behind them. The result was Lowe and Weaver giving up a combined 60 home runs, not to mention the last fifth starter we had with a "sinkerball" and an inverse BB/K ratio.
2005-12-05 21:19:47
386.   alexx
I have a Rule 5 question..

Suppose a team leaves a potential prospect in A or AA unprotected. What's to stop a rival team from picking that player, sticking him in the major leagues for a while where he is vastly overmatched, and ruining his confidence and perhaps his career and then returning him to the original team? Suppose the team that picks him is horrible and has no chance of winning in the playoffs anyway.

2005-12-05 21:22:42
387.   alex 7
That strikeout ratio is rather horrible though for a starting pitcher. His numbers scream league-average pitcher. Couldn't we just sign a nobody free agent who could give us 6 IP, 3 runs on a consistent basis and keep Bradley?

I agree that his numbers do match up with a bullpen position better, but we have a deep bullpen as it is.

I'm hoping Tony Jackson is right and Bradley is part of a Zito deal. I can't imagine Colletti doesn't feel we can get Saarloos' production from Houlton, Jackson, or Bills.

ESPN did mention the Pirates are also after Bradley. If you have to choose to trade with Beane or someone not named Beane, and you're not getting Zito in return, don't you just choose the latter automatically?

2005-12-05 21:26:11
388.   alex 7
well twin brother alexx, I would think a move like that would get a GM in trouble being that it hurts his team. Also, most worthwhile players in A are too young to be eligible for the Rule 5 draft. Finally, you have to make room on your 25-man roster to include this prospect you picked up, meaning you probably allowed someone better to go sign with another team.
2005-12-05 21:32:42
389.   bigcpa
When Beane acquired Saarloos from Houston the story was his stellar HR/9 rate. He allowed 8 hr in 111 ip that year between AAA and Houston. But at that time his K rate was 7.5 per 9.

There's no way DePo would have done this deal. The sad thing about this is I had already decided I preferred Bradley to 1 year of Zito.

2005-12-05 21:34:51
390.   Andrew Shimmin
Wasn't Saarloos an A's draftee? He was in the Moneyball draft, I though. Unless there's another Saarloos flooting around.
2005-12-05 21:37:10
391.   Andrew Shimmin
Wow. Two misspellings in one post. Actually, I kind of like "flooting", whatever it means. It might need umlauts.
2005-12-05 21:42:04
392.   alexx
Thanks, Alex. Still, it would be kind of fun to ruin another team's prospects. Maybe I am just evil.
2005-12-05 21:47:13
393.   Ken Arneson
387 What's wrong with a league average pitcher? You're not usually going to fill a staff with 12 above-average pitchers.

If Saarloos is your #1 starter, that's a bad thing. If he's your #5 starter, you're probably doing fine. If you're getting league-average production out of your #4 or #5 starters, you're probably ahead of the curve.

That's not to say I think Saarloos is worth Milton Bradley. From a talent perspective, obviously, he isn't.

2005-12-05 21:47:27
394.   bigcpa
390 Oakland traded Chad Harville for him in April 2004. In 2003 Saarloos posted 49ip, 43k, 17bb and a 4.93 era. Something strange happened to his stuff in 2004.

Sounds like we're getting Mueller. It's between us and the Pirates.
http://tinyurl.com/d5abe.

2005-12-05 21:49:24
395.   Ken Arneson
390 The A's wanted to draft Saarloos, but Houston beat them to it. They traded Chad Harville to get him during spring training a couple years ago.
2005-12-05 21:56:29
396.   Ken Arneson
394 What bigcpa said.

Saarloos had some arm or shoulder problems (I forget which) late in 2004, and they thought he might need surgery and miss all of 2005. Instead he rehabbed it over the winter, and surprisingly came out in spring training and won the 5th starter job. The A's expected Dan Meyer, Keiichi Yabu or Seth Etherton to get that job, but Saarloos seized it, and never let it go all year.

The A's babied his arm a bit, especially early in the year, rarely letting him exceed 90 pitches. He seemed to tire around that point, anyway. Whether that was cause or effect, I don't know.

2005-12-05 21:58:50
397.   Sospiro0
Just read the Timers article. Not sure if anyone cited this part yet but do you think he's been reading this site?

" I know this, things have to be looking up for Milton Bradley, since character is no longer a prerequisite to play for the Dodgers."

Plagiarism!

2005-12-05 21:59:03
398.   Andrew Shimmin
394, 395- Right you are. DePo wanted Saarloos (and Youkilis) but didn't get them because the evil old-school scouts thought he was too short(page 19 in the hymnal). Which is odd, if he's six feet tall, as Baseball-Reference insists.
2005-12-05 21:59:47
399.   OaklandAs
392 Most of the good prospects in A or AA are either on the 40 Man Roster, or are still in their first three pro seasons, and can't be taken in the Rule 5 Draft. If the player is a good prospect, he shouldn't be available for Rule 5. The Dodgers, for example, have protected Guzman, LaRoche, Billingsley, Loney, RMartin, Broxton, GMiller, DYoung, etc.
2005-12-05 22:03:57
400.   Steve
398 -- These are the same scouts who thought Paul LoDuca was too short.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-12-05 22:23:06
401.   CanuckDodger
400 -- Lo Duca IS too short -- to play a season longer than four months. His small body tuckers out after a while. If MLB played a season that began in April and ended after May, Lo Duca would be a veritable Johnny Bench.
2005-12-05 22:30:14
402.   Steve
401 -- I'm the last person you have to tell.
2005-12-05 22:34:48
403.   A Slo
But we like short players, because being tall is a moral flaw. Just like getting injured.
2005-12-05 22:57:59
404.   Steve
Just like getting injured.

Unless you're a scrappy shortstop, and therefore unable to be injury prone.

2005-12-06 06:38:05
405.   Sushirabbit
385 Ding. Ding. Ding. DING!
Why another sinker baller? Argh.
The Dodgers need somebody to mix it up with all the other slow pitchers, I guess if you are keeping Jackson and Broxton you might plan one of them to get in there with Penny eventually.

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