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Quiet or Too Quiet
2006-02-25 12:21
I was thinking this morning that this might be the quietist Dodger Spring Training since before Mike Piazza was traded. But it's sort of a waiting room quiet, filled with the underlying tension of incomplete medical recoveries - not to mention the everloving fear of being blindsided with worse news, like the Gary Shepard bike wreck in "thirtysomething." There's peace, but not exactly peace of mind.
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Stan from Tacoma
1. Gagne and his contract (this will happen).
2. Izzy gets very healthy very quickly and wants his old position back (this could happen).
3. Choi gets traded/released (almost certain to happen).
4. Kent decides someone else needs a pep talk on how to be a professional (might happen).
5. Baez has a great Spring and thinks he should be the closer (longshot).
Outside of these scenarios, I can't think of anything. There's no Milton Bradley, no overt anger at the McCourts, no DePodesta to tick off a good portion of the media, positions are set... I don't think we'll be seeing any controversy for a while.
-Gurnick's Dodger Notes
I thought Lofton was completely healthy, just old. Did Gurnick include his name because there was nowhere else to put it? Or was Lofton hurt? And the trip refers to Tuesday's intrasquad game, Billingsley and Houlton starting
It's not that it was not fun, it was just stupid. I mean, we were chanting like bleep for the carrer .240 hitter HEE-SEOP CHOI.
That blows, especially when we were chanting "MYP" only a year ago.
I know, that's exactley what I was getting at, isn't that awsome?
17 You're new around here aren't you?<<
Nah, I don't post here much, I mostly post on dodgers.com.
But what do you mean by that? Do you mean that most people that post here are Depo supporters, and still see something in Choi?
Uh-oh
That 30 bombs in post 11 was directed towards me, from someone from dodgers.com.
I got into a debate with the large anti-depodesta crowd there and pointed out that choi and saenz combined for 30 hr's(bombs) last year and that i'd rather have them in the lineup than lofton or mueller, with nomar playing either LF or 3B
It looks like we have a brave one from dodgers.com here in depodesta friendly country. LOL!
20 Yes, moreso to the latter part of the question<<
Ok, so what exactly do you see in our favorite .240 hitter, with more carrer K's than hits?
Or should he be KC?
What's up, I am dodfan2 on dodgers.com, yes.
Who are you responding to?
And of course we pointed out that last year was an abberation for the better half of our platoon (Saenz). After all, his previous carrer high in home runs was 11, and previous carrer high in RBIS was about 42.
So it was no sure thing that you would get your patented THIRTY BOMBS!
The thing is that he has not been able to continue his home runs in the second half of the season. Also, it is not a fair comparison to Izzy, after all, he will not even be in the line up most of the time.
Thinking, not ALL of us here are huge Choi or Depo fans. For me the jury was (is) still out on them. Regardless of whether you agree with his moves Depo was not given a fair opportunity to prove himself. Choi was so badly mismanaged by Tracey, I'm not sure anyone knows what he is truly capable of. I'm not convinced that Depo would have succeeded and I am not sure that Choi is as good as other here, but we may never know and that is frustrating.
Of course, you don't win games with setiment. Believe me, I like Choi's personality, it's just that we can't win with him in the line up. Perfect example being our 71-91 season last year.
as for not being able to win with choi in the lineup, your "example" is pure fallacy. choi being in the lineup (even though he wasn't for much of the season) had little to do with our record compared to the massive wave of injuries to key players like drew, bradley, gagne, perez, etc...
Of course, our new GM appears to understand how to put together a major leauge roster with some balance. He knows that you have to have balance, not say "D@m it, I am going to put my finger prints on this roster, Period." Which is what Depo did. And of course, he forgot about the 5th starter, infield depth, and forgot to resign Beltre.
Meanwhile, Ned is willing to listen to other people (he just hired a senior advisor the other day), and does not try to control the manager, like Depo.
Actually, I remember late in the season, against the giants, Choi was up late, and struck out with a chance to win the game.
And guess what he struck out on? The curveball from A. Benitez.
That's not the only reason I can go on and on about why Choi is basically a failed experiment.
For example:
He has 42 more Ks than hits.
He hit .207 against lefties.
He is a carrer .240 hitter.
He hit .197 with RISP against righties (.250 against lefties).
He hit .245 with two outs.
He relied on a platoon.
and so on.
Hey now, don't you tell me you don't remember me 'cause I sure as heckfire remember you.
Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing. Ned Ryerson, got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson, I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to anymore? Well?
That blows, especially when we were chanting "MYP" only a year ago.*
choi 2005> beltre 2005.
in hindsight, i would think not resigning belte proved to be the right move. seattle just payed 17 mil last yr for an offensive season of around 700 OPS.
In what way? Beltre had more HRs, RBIs, and hits.
Bottom line, it is easy for you to say that with hindsight, but did you really think Beltre was going to have a down year? After all, he was an MYP for us. He was easily our best third baseman since Ron Cey. I am sorry, but Beltre is a better player than Choi.
sorry but thats absolutely ridiculous. if depo wasnt willing to listen to people, he would have fired all our scouts and logan white and used his "computer" to draft players.
If depo tried to control the manager, he sure as hell wouldnt have had jason phillips batting 4th and bat izturis leadoff and an endless amount of stupid moves by tracy.
Most of us are too tired to keep making the same points ad infinitum.
As for listening to others, Billy Beane listened to Depo for years. And while you may dispute Depo philosophy its hard to argue with Beane's success. Ned is no proven entity yet. Let's see how this team does.
As for Beltre, why would you have signed him. He had one season where he exceeded his norm and you want to give him 5yr/60M. Yet, Choi exceeds his averages and you call it an aberration and want him released.
Finally, do you really think Ned hasn't put his finger prints all over this roster? Tomko, Baez, Carter, Nomar, Mueller, Sao, Furcal. They may or may not be good moves but they are 100% Ned's. Its a little disingenuous to criticize Depo for the same things you praise in Ned. You just like Ned's moves more. Its ok to like Ned's moves. I hope they turn out to be brilliant but lets be fair.
more hrs, rbis and hits then what?
i didnt think beltre was going to have that crappy of a year but no way he was going to repeat 2004. look at his career. what year is out of pattern with the rest of his career? it was more likely beltre was going to be average then a superstar. and being average isnt worth the type of contract he demanded and receieved.
depo is an ivy league nerd. ned is a baseball man!
okay, you are saying that in contrast to choi. i get it.
well all the numbers you pointed out are due to the # of ABs beltre got. of course he had more homeruns, he had about 200+ more ABs. sorry im not buying that argument.
45 is me trying to fix the bug in 34.
253/.336/.453
wow. i cant believe you rip on choi and still want to resign beltre.
Exactly, imagine if Choi had that many at bats, against lefties no less.
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Because he hit .334, with 48 home runs, and 121 RBIS!!!!!!! And he was only 25! He, like you Choi people claim with Choi, was stil developing when he finally came through in 2004 When your players finally reward you, are you supposed to just let them go? NO.
No, I said that Saenz was an abberation last year.
Also, when compared with the letting Beltre go, signing Jose Valinetin, and trading for Jason Phillips, doesn't Ned look good?
Rockfish would be a good name, but I think friends wouldn't like it. I decided to opt for a baseball-themed name.
Right now the Mighty Casey is hiding out. (in the closet)
Hey now, don't you tell me you don't remember me 'cause I sure as heckfire remember you.
Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing. Ned Ryerson, got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson, I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to anymore? Well?
Or, perhaps you might prefer: I think you might do something better with the time, than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers.
Yes, Depo did try and control what went on the field, and his struggles with Tracy are well documented.
None taken. Thank you.
How many HOF hitters have had more strikeouts then hits in their careers? I know of at least one who most Dodger fans should be very familiar with and wish he'd never played baseball. FYI, Adam Dunn has had only 564 hits compared to 733 strikeouts and I don't think to many people who know jack about baseball consider him a failure.
Better than "The Apple Dumpling Gang"?
A Choi debate in this thread is certainly ironic. It does seem like a FAQ would spare both sides some frustration and wasted time.
Flea Seop
Ja(y)son Furth
The Kittle
I was responding to Steve's question about the raven. I was asking what the song "Imagine" had to do with projecting Choi.
Also, what I said originally, was why it is so good to have this quiet ST, and that not having to hear the HEE SEOP CHOI chants topped it all.
Bob, is it too much for you to at least consider naming the cat "Hee Seop"? That would be so cool.
I'll leave him there until I take him to the vet Wednesday for his checkup.
Lynx point, shorthair. He's not a bad looking cat.
When I see him.
92 -- Darren McGavin died? I don't believe you.
Holy smokes. Do... Do you know what this is? This is... A lamp!
That his last days on earth were spent in the knowledge that ABC desecrated his signature role makes me even angrier about it than before. The Enemies List shall swell tonight.
Please excuse my bringing this up, and feel free to ignore.
I love the site, and don't want to intrude.
I was telling you what I meant by my 94 post.
I was telling you what I meant by my 94 post.
You were responding to me right?
(Haven't we discussed that one before?)
Mr. Knotts died of pulmonary and respiratory complications at U.C.L.A. Medical Center in Beverly Hills, said Paul Ward, a spokesman for the cable network TV Land, which broadcasts "The Andy Griffith Show" and another hit co-starring Mr. Knotts, "Three's Company."
I have to say that in all sincerity, if a TV executive were to announce my death, I would have died a happy man.
104 -- Here's the part I was looking for:
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
http://tinyurl.com/eagyn
119 - XF, is it too late to start simulating just a spring training season?
DT readers just casually sitting around chatting. A visitor runs in. DT readers continue to casually chat. The visitor leaves. And the DT readers continue their chat.
I think I like this silence, or shall I say apathy.
Rest in peace, Barney.
" Because he hit .334, with 48 home runs, and 121 RBIS!!!!!!! And he was only 25! He, like you Choi people claim with Choi, was stil developing when he finally came through in 2004 When your players finally reward you, are you supposed to just let them go? NO."
uhh..YES! You're not putting yourself in the owner or gm's shoes when you say that. From the get go I thought it was a good move not t sign Beltre and people thought that was just because I liked Depo...not true. It was because I don't feel comfortable giving insane money to a guy who has ONE great season (that also happened to be in his walk year). It's just too risky. Even if Beltre did continue his tear I still would have thought it was a good non-move. You simply can't invest that much in a guy who has one great year in his contract year...that's just too shady.
Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.
"Also, when compared with the letting Beltre go, signing Jose Valinetin, and trading for Jason Phillips, doesn't Ned look good? "
not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...
http://tinyurl.com/syv5v
ps: tonight was fun. i love parties when girls are making out right in front of me.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/pet/
It should be free to list. Best possible luck.
oh madn college iz fuen burt im out of alcohold!
He likes some guy nobody's ever heard of, better.
Me too.
Too bad nobody's willing to pay me for that.
I know with everything going on, it's hard to keep track of things that don't seem as important. My father practically ignored our family cat after my mother passed away. But he had a lot on his mind obviously.
And yes, I live on the West Side of LA, so I would appreciate any potential adoptors. I can send photos and a little note about him.
Don
Inexpressible.
Were I not allergic to cats like most of us are to another Choi argument, I'd do it. I live in WestLA and I teach so I'm contact with too many people a day. I'll ask around. My deepest sympathies for your situation. I usually check the site once a day so I'll see what I can find out about a new home for the cat unless some of the other good people beat me to it.
Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.
<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<
His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.
<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<
Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.
Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.
<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<
His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.
<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<
Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.
Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.
<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<
His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.
<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<
Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.
No more mentioning this site at dodgers.com.
deburns, let me add my thoughts to those already expressed. Although Jon has set up this blog as a Dodger-oriented site, there is also a real sense of family here. When one of us is going through tough times, we all feel it.
I'm sure you'll have no problem in finding a good home for a cute, young cat, but if nothing develops I suggest you do a search on cat rescues. These organizations will hold the cat until it's adopted so you have no worry about the ultimate welfare of your pet, as you might if you took it to a shelter.
Good luck.
So is that, like, knowing what base to run to and stuff?
"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
"– so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
For heaven sakes, leave Choi alone! The topic is old/so last season/tried. Please don't take DT down that Dodgers.com road.
Unrelated: I conducted me own little expirement, a la Xeifrank. I added up the batting averages of last years 40 man roster, and this years likely 40 man. Then I divided by the number of letters in the GM's last name. DePo totally p0wned Colletti. So, there you go.
http://ladodgertalk.com/2006/02/26/my-final-word-on-depodesta--beltre.aspx
F-L-A-N-D-E-R-S = 8
I will circulate it. I actually rescued my dog through some people in my office who are involved in pet placements so I know they will try.
Second, it has occurred to me that another way to characterize the distinctiveness of this site and its patrons is that, in addition to Jon's explicit "no swearing" and "no politics" rules, there is an implicit "no explanation points" norm as well. It gets violated every now and then, but not often. If you really feel like you need to shout, do it somewhere else, then come back and contribute here with calm, reasoned open-mindedness.
No swearing.
No politics.
No shouting.
Unless Jim Tracy is the subject.
i always thought TYPING IN CAPS denoted shouting on the internet.
Boys, boys.....
In an emergency only: ! ~
Banned: ;
They tend to be Giants fans
Oh, communists, not colum...never mind.
Actually communists tend to be Reds fans
sorry, was answering 176
But there was the 1976 World Series.
NL West Standings
Standings
Team W L GB Streak
PD Dodgers 31 14 _ Won 5
DBacks 24 21 7 Lost 5
NC Dodgers 22 23 9 Lost 1
Giants 22 23 9 Won 3
Padres 20 25 11 Won 1
Rockies 16 29 15 Lost 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Trolls
Just a good read, and the motto, "don't feed the trolls," pretty well sums it up.
(This would be more appropriate about 100 posts back, but I wasn't around the discussion...)
I'm feeling grumpy. A friend and I had planned to go to see the UH-USC baseball game this afternoon, but it's so rainy and gloomy that we decided we'd cancel. The game may go on, but without us. UH has won the first two games in the series, so it likely would have been an SC victory anyway.
So I'm doing the laundry that otherwise wouldn't have gotten done till tomorrow.
"Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around."
I really don't understand how you can have that point of view. Beltre had ONE good season, then absolutely stunk it up after we let him go...yet you still say he's worth all the money he got? As of right now, he's a giant bust until he proves otherwise. The difference between him and Furcal is #1 less years and #2 Furcal is a proven player. Beltre for all we know is a one hit wonder.
"His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA."
Brilliant? don't you think that's going a bit far? You're assuming all of Flander's's's's moves pan out which is a giant question mark. You say Nomar isn't far from elite but seem to be forgetting the guy is perpetually hurt. You mention that Lofton had a great year last year but ignore previous years before that where he was average at best. You talk about Seo's 2.59 ERA but fail to mention his numbers before that.
The bottom line is that none of us should be praising Colletti yet until we see exactly what these guys are going to do. If Nomar stays healthy then yes we have an elite player...but that's a giant IF. Same with guys like Lofton and Seo...if they perform how we want them to perform then Colletti will look great but if they don't, then Colletti will look pretty bad. It's just way too early to be calling Colletti's moves brilliant.
"Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit."
Choi always was great at drawing walks (before Tracy messed that up), has HUGE power potential, and was tied for the best FPCT and had the best RF amongst NL first baseman last year. Yeah, he's done nothing alright...If anything, what he has done while in there should warrant him getting a platoon job with Saenz at the minimum. This team would be far better off putting Nomar in LF and Saenz/Choi at first because they're going to put up better numbers than Lofton.
Also, I love how all the Depo haters bring up Valentin, Phillips etc but always fail to mention Kent, Sanchez, Werth (who was big for us in that second half), the fact that he jettisoned an overpaid catcher and worn out reliever etc etc. I'm not saying I'm the bigggest Depo fan in the world, but the fact that people are so selective with his bad moves yet fail to mention his good moves always gives me a chuckle.
AMEN BROTHER!
I couldn't have said it better.
c navarro/martin
1b choi/seanz
2b kent
ss furcal
3b guzman or nomar
of drew, cruz, guzman or nomar
bench mueller, lofton, aybar, ledee, and catcher 1b who is not starting.
penny
lowe
perez
seo
tomko(unfortunately i don't think billingsley will be ready, i wish tho, so we can dump tomko)
bullpen gagne, baez, brazo, broxton, osoria, kuo
Even tho i talk smack about lofton and mueller, they both are great assets to have for the bench.
Maybe after the A's win the World Series and the McCourts lose money this year, Frank will switch gears yet again.
Wha?
That stands for "Hee-Seop Choi Frequently Asked Questions."
Why?
Some think it's necessary because this subject has been tilled to death.
Okay... suppose I'm a newbie to the site. What do I need to know and why is Choi a centerpiece?
It's difficult to know what you mean by centerpiece but I'll assume you mean that Choi has been the subject of considerable focus and debate on this website and as such learning more about him means we can learn more about the site in general.
If you want to get verbose, be my guest.
My pleasure.
So what gives?
The sites creator, Jon Weisman, has rightly or wrongly been described as a "SABR" guy, meaning he admires Bill James, likes stats with acronyms like VORP, WARP, EQA, EQR and other things mathematical. The commenters of DT seem to like these numbers, too. So does a guy named Paul DePodesta.
Didn't he used to be GM?
Yep.
I don't understand what this has to do with Choi.
DePodesta traded Paul LoDuca, Guillermo Mota and Juan Encarnacion for Brad Penny and HSC, by far the most controversial trade the Dodgers have made since Mike Piazza went to Florida.
Why did he do that?
DePodesta felt that LoDuca was a 32-year old catcher who had some value but that he was a player on the decline and additionally was due for a fat contract. He felt Mota played a position that was about as reliable year-to-year as grain futures and that Encarnacion chewed AB's unecessarily. He felt that Brad Penny was underappreciated as a starting pitcher and that HSC was the exact opposite of Lo Duca: a relative unknown with unimpressive triple crown stats but a hidden star because of his ability ot draw walks.
What would the detractors of the trade say?
They'd say that Paul LoDuca was a guy who gave his all to the Dodgers, who played hard every day and was a great guy to have in the clubhouse. They would also say that Mota was a crucial stepping stone to Gagne and most all, the trade is disruptive and would adversely affect the chemistry in the clubhouse.
How did the trade work out?
The Dodgers won the division.
Because of or in spite of the trade?
Let's move on.
I still don't know why we're talking here. What's the big deal about HSC?
For those not inclined or hostile to the point of view of DePodesta, Beane or Baseball Prospectus or weblogs about baseball (a group, I might add, that can disagree about a number of things) HSC represents all this right about sabermetrics: a low-average, clumsy looking guy with an ugly swing who nevertheless is able to help a team score runs because of his proven ability to draw walks. He is young, he has impressive minor-league stats... yet he doesn't play.
And the opposition would say...
That this is no time for experiments. Choi is not graceful, he does not have a pretty swing and he has played for three teams now, all of whom have come to the conclusion that he is not a full-time player and hardly a part-time player.
Can we talk about this some more? This sounds interesting!
I'm glad you think so but we'd prefer not to since, again, this subject has been gone over ad nauseam and since Choi is a longshot to be a Dodger by the start of the season--he'll probably be traded, sent to the minors or released--we are all becoming sick of the subject.
All?
Well, not Suffering Bruin but he's always been a little different.
Oops...
I knew I should check this site more often. And as fast as I wrote it, I'd hardly call it an effort!:)
Where is Wayne's post?
I haven't posted for a little while (it being off-season and like you said, quiet), but I think this thread is an interesting case study on blogs.
You have formed a community here. Your regular posters come back on the deadest days in Dodgerdom to chat with each other. Like any community, there's a shared history, in-jokes, well-known prejudices and hot buttons, etc. It's part of what we come back for. Actually, it's almost all of what we come back for. It's a benign clique and a very amusing one.
So along comes a new guy, thinkingblue, who from his perspective is making a point as valid as any other about last season. He wasn't here for the 200 previous discussion on the topic of Choi. The community's response was not so much to condemn him for having that p.o.v. (contra-Choi, pro-Beltre), as to express frustration that a tired old discussion has been revived again.
Tired, however, only to the "community." Not tired, necessarily, to thinkingblue or any of the dozens of newcomers who probably show up here every day, wondering if it's safe to jump in.
There's really no appropriate admonition here. You can't blame a community for acting like a community, especially when "community" is the most prominent feature of this site. But you certainly don't want posters like thinkingblue to feel unwelcome. Especially since he was perfectly civil, far as I could see.
Someone mentioned an FAQ. That might be one way to address this. Give newcomers a chance to, at least, catch up on the lingo and understand what goes on here. You're going to get a lot more visitors as Opening Day approaches. They might enjoy it more if they understand who Steve is, who Bob Timmerman is, what their likely reactions will be to, say, Jim Tracy and Frank Robinson, respectively.
Just a thought.
Although I think Choi should start at 1B, a 110 OPS+ at a traditional power position for a league average fielder isn't actually all that much to get excited about. I know Choi looks okay in the NL (I think Jon had some figures on this), but just because we don't have as many traditional slugger corner IFs in the league today doesn't mean that 1B isn't still a traditional power position. I think it's fine in our circumstances, especially when you've got a potential HOFer at 2B and a stud at SS, but as a 1B at least, I think it's defensible to say that Choi's raw numbers have not been what one would normally expect out of that position.
I actually think those numbers should be adjusted for misuse by Tracy, and the hope that Choi will improve, but really, the way certain stats were bandied around here on this thread as objective truth to support one position seems a bit much at times. The raw stats only show that Choi has so far been an okay player--his career OPS+ is 107 and his fielding Rate2 is 99. His career EqA is 275, league average being set at 260. Assuming one didn't have a Kent and Furcal in the IF, and that Choi didn't improve (a debatable but possible proposition), Choi would be a below-average 1B. That's all the raw objective numbers say so far.
198 - Amen! I still have not seen an official definition of The Grabowski Principle, just that horrifying movie that I think Nate found that one time.
200 - Where is that classic Steve rant where he compares Choi's #s to every other 1B in the league?
Gary Carter has an Expos cap on his HOF plaque.
202
The Grabowski Principle is that when a pitcher gives up a hit (usually one that is well struck) to a hitter as bad as Jason Grabowksi, he must be removed from the game immediately if the ultimate outcome of the game still hangs in the balance.
I just hope Kent doesn't play better mad, or we may be in for a long season. First Bonds, then Milton. We'd better find someone to upset him before the season starts.
we are the grabowskis wild and free, what you get is what you see!"
for the next DT meet up, we all should buy a grabowski t-shirt from there and wear it!
I thought the Grabowski Principle was that if a pitcher gave up a hit to G. he was immediately sent to Japan.
1. Is Bob really that smart or does he have a library at his fingertips?
2. Who is Becker and why does he aggravate our host so much?
3. What is Marty making for dinner?
4. Danica McKellar? Don't they mean Danica Patrick?
5. "Who is Phil Conners?"
http://tinyurl.com/qy4o9
My enduring image of Percival will be his last pitch thrown in the 2002 World Series, stretching back and raising his arms in triumph, as if to say --- this one's for you Gene!
1. Is Bob really that smart or does he have a library at his fingertips?
I'm really that smart.
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=128082&format=&page=1
Izturis FAQ's?
Tomko FAQ's?
Ramon Martinez FAQ's?
Lance Carter FAQ's?
Sandy Alomar FAQ's?
To retain sanity and thus apathy, I believe I'll need these before the start of the season. Even moreso than the Choi FAQ's.
Put one foot into ice water and the other into boiling water and statistics will say that on average, you are fine. Anyone who ever tries that will attest to the fallicy of statistics!
HS Choi? Stats may prove something, but take away one week last year and see what Choi's stats say. Forget the stats - watch him - I could get him out! He has a nice eye for a number 2 hitter, but he is slow and lumbering (Tony Jackson's words) and should be in a power slot. Stats may say he stays - watch him and even Ray Charles could see otherwise!
It was incumbent upon Tracy to see what Choi was capable of - he should have played full time last year - but he didn't and we don't have the time to see if he can play.
Let him go somewhere else and play - I doubt we will regret it!
"Over the first two weeks of Spring Training, they [Ned and Grady] got to see many of those prospect jewels. A bunch of them were on display when Chad Billingsley, the top pitching prospect, threw batting practice to Andy LaRoche, Joel Guzman, James Loney and Russell Martin.
That Big Five, which helped make Double-A Jacksonville Baseball America's Minor League Team of the Year in 2005, figures to advance as a unit to Triple-A Las Vegas in 2006.
http://tinyurl.com/jj4e8
215 People are sick of this subject but for me, it never fails to fascinate. I've written this before and I'll say it again: I like Tony Jackson a lot. But I think Tony and many, many others spent time concentrating on the things Choi is not and they come to the conclusion that he's a stiff who can't play. Choi is not a contact hitter, he's not scrappy, he's not personally or professionally aggressive. The conclusion seems logical enough: if you're playing pick-up baseball and Choi is against the fence, he ain't getting picked for a while because like you said, with a swing like that he can't be any good, right? Except he is pretty good and for the past two years he's been at least as good as Garciaparra and he's younger, healthier... and if I took a weeks worth of games away from a part-time player--his best games--I could put a serious dent in the stats, too.
Good to see you here, too, by the by. Welcome if I haven't seen you before and welcome back if you've been here before.
http://tinyurl.com/fgdkw
You must have pesky arm angles.
I've also started my own blog, which only occasionally references baseball. If anyone's interested, you'll find out some facts about me, like my name and ...a few other details of note.
I was pleased that when Kevin Roderick told the world about my blog, he did so in the same post he announced Bob Timmerman's. A harmonic convergence known only to me, but it made me smile.
Here's the URL:
www.johnstodderinexile.wordpress.com
Not to second-guess your decision about the cat, but for what it's worth, it's a totem of normal life that might be reassuring at times. But obviously there are other factors at play.
Anyway, write me offline at dzzrtRatt@hotmail.com if you wanted to discuss anything with someone who can relate.
I did not equate heart (or lack thereof) with HS Choi. I merely compared it to statistics! I was a big Choi fan after the trade, but Tracy butchered him. We can't wait another year to see if he can be an everyday 1B. I do not doubt his heart - my brother has more "heart" than anyone I have ever seen (except me), but he can't play 1B for the Dodgers either! I watch his swing and realize he's never going to be what I wanted him to be.
Finally, this is not a racist question (my wife is Asian as are my stepchildren), but are your Asian?
Oldbear,
I am 52 Years Old, but about 30 years ago, my flat, straight fastball was clocked at 97 MPH at a Cincinnati Reds tryout camp. I had plenty of heart, just no movement and no curve & no pesky arm angles...
Heart won't get it!
Choi batting 2nd:
Games: 44
ABs: 158
BA: .316
OBP: .391
SLG: .646
I posted these stats at a few boards and wondered if the Choi haters would say these are flukes or what not.
Can 44 games be fluke? I suppose. But here's the response I got.
Choi Fan- "Here are Choi's stats. Most baseball fans would approve of them"
Choi Hater= "He only hits good in the 2nd spot bc he gets easy fastballs to hit"
Choi Fan- "But you told me last week that Choi's bat was slow and he couldnt hit fastballs, right?"
Choi Hater--"Err...stats are meaningless. I dont care what they say I could get Choi out"
A Choi FAQ is needed btw.
I did not equate heart (or lack thereof) with HS Choi. I merely compared it to statistics! I was a big Choi fan after the trade, but Tracy butchered him. We can't wait another year to see if he can be an everyday 1B. I do not doubt his heart - my brother has more "heart" than anyone I have ever seen (except me), but he can't play 1B for the Dodgers either! I watch his swing and realize he's never going to be what I wanted him to be.
Finally, this is not a racist question (my wife is Asian as are my stepchildren), but are you Asian?
Oldbear,
I am 52 Years Old, but about 30 years ago, my flat, straight fastball was clocked at 97 MPH at a Cincinnati Reds tryout camp. I had plenty of heart, just no movement and no curve & no pesky arm angles...
Heart won't get it!
With hindsight, it is easy for you to say he is a bust. But c'mon, you weren't really thinking he was gonna hit less than .300/30HR/100 RBIs were you? If so, I really don't understand your point of view.
>
Choi has been great at drawing walks? LOL. Are you talking about his 34 walks to 80 strike outs? Potential Potential Potential. His swing is AWFUL. He looks clumsy out there on the field. Yea his fielding pct. may be good. But that's because he doesn't get close enough to the balls for it to be considered an error. You don't really think that he is better defensively than Derek Lee or Todd Helton do you? And platoons blow. Hee-Seop Saenz fizzeled down the stretch last year. And if one falls, then what do you do?
And if Choi is an everyday player, that would be awful. He can't hit a curveball, or a lefty.
Depo's negatives outweighed his positives. Ned hasn't really had a major negative yet. I mean, you know that at one point, Depo said he wished he had 9 Milton Bradly's?
My wife died 11 years ago at age 37 of a brain tumor and I became a single parent. It seemed overwhelming at the time, but life wnet on for me and it will go on for you... and I am sure she would want it to. Sometimes, death is a blessing (I know nothing of your situation). You cannot, however look ahead, you must embrace each moment and the greatest honor you can show a person who has passed is to have a happy life again. You never forget - You always remember. Honor every minute you have together.
Forward, backward, inward, outward, Come and join the chase! Nothing could be drier than a jolly caucus-race.
I like Choi. I really do.
Bottom to the top
Never a beginning,
There can never be a stop
From the top to the bottom
Mmmmmmmmm...I got'em!
The name Casey is going to stick. He can be either The Mighty Casey or Casey Stengel. Depends upon my mood.
The last cat had a TV-themed name (Emily), so I wanted a baseball themed one.
Tonight's question: What was the name of Jim Rockford's cat?
I was responding to thinkblue0, sorry for not putting his post number.
Also, on your "Choi batting second" what about his hitting with runners in scoring position? To be sure, he hit .203 total with RISP this year. Meanwhile, Nomar Garciaparra has never had under 96 RBIs in a healthy season. And Cruz had 22 RBIs down the strecth with us. And I am sure that those 44 games are all against righties rigth? If he played a full season, with lefites, he would be largely unproductive.
Valentino
We won't find out until we grow
Well I don't know if all that's true
'Cause you got me, and baby I got you
Doesn't he still hold the (pre-Ripken) record?