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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Quiet or Too Quiet
2006-02-25 12:21
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

I was thinking this morning that this might be the quietist Dodger Spring Training since before Mike Piazza was traded.

But it's sort of a waiting room quiet, filled with the underlying tension of incomplete medical recoveries - not to mention the everloving fear of being blindsided with worse news, like the Gary Shepard bike wreck in "thirtysomething."

There's peace, but not exactly peace of mind.

Comments (338)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-02-25 13:31:07
1.   Blu2
Just waiting for the stupid jerk to trade Choi. Then he'll bring in an old worn out Giant.
2006-02-25 13:48:58
2.   Big Game
i like the quiet. its keeping expectations manageable.
2006-02-25 14:00:04
3.   popup
It will be good when the games start. Always a good time of year unless like Gagne last year, someone gets hurt.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-02-25 14:18:03
4.   Sam DC
Nationals camp is busy. Brian Lawrence tears a labrum and out til August. Want to blame Jim Bowden, but can't. Was his best move of the offseason to trade Castilla for that guy. Funny how things go. No injury history that I know of, but I'm not sure I'd know.
2006-02-25 14:35:48
5.   kinbote
tuesday should be interesting. intrasquad game featuring billingsley and other jacksonville prospects . . .
2006-02-25 14:50:24
6.   oldbear
I think that perceived silence is actually apathy.
2006-02-25 14:51:33
7.   oldbear
1. Trading Choi is too easy. I'm waiting for the Ramon Martinez/Jason Repko in LA, Choi to Vegas scenario.
2006-02-25 15:13:15
8.   Marty
RIP Barney Fife
2006-02-25 15:24:37
9.   Linkmeister
The calm before the storm, perhaps?
2006-02-25 16:18:11
10.   Steve
Now, am I just drunk or crazy, or did Chad Hedrick win the same color medal as Sasha Cohen did?
2006-02-25 16:46:35
11.   thinkingblue
This is a good thing. Yes, it's quiet. No Bradley sounding off. No third base controversy. No obsessive worrying over Brad Penny. No doom and gloom. And BEST OF ALL, absolutely no HEE-SEOP CHOI chants. This is the bomb (and no, I am not talking about the THIRTY BOMBS of Hee-Seop Saenz.)
2006-02-25 17:17:18
12.   natepurcell
i dunno how anyone cannot like the choi chants.
2006-02-25 17:24:36
13.   Andrew Shimmin
10- Same medal, different sins. If Plaschke had been born in Saudi Arabia, his precinct would never have had any trouble meeting it's morality code violation quotas.
2006-02-25 17:27:52
14.   Suffering Bruin
As post number 13, unless someone beats me to it, perhaps we ought to look at the dark side. What could happen to make some unwelcome noise in the Dodger camp?

1. Gagne and his contract (this will happen).
2. Izzy gets very healthy very quickly and wants his old position back (this could happen).
3. Choi gets traded/released (almost certain to happen).
4. Kent decides someone else needs a pep talk on how to be a professional (might happen).
5. Baez has a great Spring and thinks he should be the closer (longshot).

Outside of these scenarios, I can't think of anything. There's no Milton Bradley, no overt anger at the McCourts, no DePodesta to tick off a good portion of the media, positions are set... I don't think we'll be seeing any controversy for a while.

2006-02-25 17:31:55
15.   Kayaker7
I heard on NPR this morning that Piazza is playing for Italy, in the World Baseball Classic.
2006-02-25 17:44:12
16.   King of the Hobos
"Not making the trip will be pitchers not scheduled to throw that day (Gagne, Lowe and Brad Penny among them) and veterans recovering from injuries (Jeff Kent, Furcal, Izturis, Drew and Kenny Lofton)."
-Gurnick's Dodger Notes

I thought Lofton was completely healthy, just old. Did Gurnick include his name because there was nowhere else to put it? Or was Lofton hurt? And the trip refers to Tuesday's intrasquad game, Billingsley and Houlton starting

2006-02-25 17:45:12
17.   thinkingblue
12.

It's not that it was not fun, it was just stupid. I mean, we were chanting like bleep for the carrer .240 hitter HEE-SEOP CHOI.
That blows, especially when we were chanting "MYP" only a year ago.

2006-02-25 17:47:25
18.   thinkingblue
<<14.Outside of these scenarios, I can't think of anything. There's no Milton Bradley, no overt anger at the McCourts, no DePodesta to tick off a good portion of the media, positions are set... I don't think we'll be seeing any controversy for a while.<<

I know, that's exactley what I was getting at, isn't that awsome?

2006-02-25 17:49:49
19.   King of the Hobos
17 You're new around here aren't you?
2006-02-25 17:54:18
20.   thinkingblue
<<19. King of the Hobos
17 You're new around here aren't you?<<

Nah, I don't post here much, I mostly post on dodgers.com.
But what do you mean by that? Do you mean that most people that post here are Depo supporters, and still see something in Choi?

2006-02-25 17:56:14
21.   King of the Hobos
20 Yes, moreso to the latter part of the question
2006-02-25 17:57:09
22.   Steve
I mostly post on dodgers.com.

Uh-oh

2006-02-25 17:58:24
23.   Bob Timmermann
I'm going to hide in my closet with my new cat for a while.
2006-02-25 18:00:20
24.   Steve
I say we table the Choi talk (please consult the archives, et seq., ad nauseum) and help Bob name his cat.
2006-02-25 18:01:01
25.   MartinBillingsley31
Hey King of the hobos.

That 30 bombs in post 11 was directed towards me, from someone from dodgers.com.

I got into a debate with the large anti-depodesta crowd there and pointed out that choi and saenz combined for 30 hr's(bombs) last year and that i'd rather have them in the lineup than lofton or mueller, with nomar playing either LF or 3B

It looks like we have a brave one from dodgers.com here in depodesta friendly country. LOL!

2006-02-25 18:01:35
26.   thinkingblue
<<21. King of the Hobos
20 Yes, moreso to the latter part of the question<<

Ok, so what exactly do you see in our favorite .240 hitter, with more carrer K's than hits?

2006-02-25 18:01:59
27.   Bob Timmermann
You don't like Casey?

Or should he be KC?

2006-02-25 18:03:36
28.   thinkingblue
25. MartinBillingsley31>>

What's up, I am dodfan2 on dodgers.com, yes.

2006-02-25 18:06:17
29.   thinkingblue
27.

Who are you responding to?

2006-02-25 18:07:07
30.   King of the Hobos
26 His power, and ability to get on base more often than someone such as Izturis.
2006-02-25 18:07:57
31.   Andrew Shimmin
27- He should not be KC, unless you can already tell that you don't like him. Disco cannot die soon enough.
2006-02-25 18:08:26
32.   King of the Hobos
27 I'm guessing Frank Robinson is not being considered? How about Bowden the Cat?
2006-02-25 18:10:00
33.   Steve
You just said "for the time being" so I got the idea that this was a temporary name. I would consider naming the cat Rockfish, though I have no quarrel with Casey.
2006-02-25 18:10:30
34.   thinkingblue
<<I got into a debate with the large anti-depodesta crowd there and pointed out that choi and saenz combined for 30 hr's(bombs) last year and that i'd rather have them in the lineup than lofton or mueller, with nomar playing either LF or 3B<<

And of course we pointed out that last year was an abberation for the better half of our platoon (Saenz). After all, his previous carrer high in home runs was 11, and previous carrer high in RBIS was about 42.

So it was no sure thing that you would get your patented THIRTY BOMBS!

2006-02-25 18:11:03
35.   Vishal
[26] an enthusiastic, charismatic young player with decent power and underrated qualities who is a pleasure to root for.
2006-02-25 18:13:22
36.   thinkingblue
30.

The thing is that he has not been able to continue his home runs in the second half of the season. Also, it is not a fair comparison to Izzy, after all, he will not even be in the line up most of the time.

2006-02-25 18:15:18
37.   LAT
Just when we thought it was going to be quiet around here.

Thinking, not ALL of us here are huge Choi or Depo fans. For me the jury was (is) still out on them. Regardless of whether you agree with his moves Depo was not given a fair opportunity to prove himself. Choi was so badly mismanaged by Tracey, I'm not sure anyone knows what he is truly capable of. I'm not convinced that Depo would have succeeded and I am not sure that Choi is as good as other here, but we may never know and that is frustrating.

2006-02-25 18:15:35
38.   thinkingblue
35.
Of course, you don't win games with setiment. Believe me, I like Choi's personality, it's just that we can't win with him in the line up. Perfect example being our 71-91 season last year.
2006-02-25 18:18:57
39.   Vishal
[38] you don't win games because of a cheer at all, but that's not why we do it. you asked why we would cheer for a guy like choi, and i was speaking to that.

as for not being able to win with choi in the lineup, your "example" is pure fallacy. choi being in the lineup (even though he wasn't for much of the season) had little to do with our record compared to the massive wave of injuries to key players like drew, bradley, gagne, perez, etc...

2006-02-25 18:19:27
40.   thinkingblue
37.

Of course, our new GM appears to understand how to put together a major leauge roster with some balance. He knows that you have to have balance, not say "D@m it, I am going to put my finger prints on this roster, Period." Which is what Depo did. And of course, he forgot about the 5th starter, infield depth, and forgot to resign Beltre.
Meanwhile, Ned is willing to listen to other people (he just hired a senior advisor the other day), and does not try to control the manager, like Depo.
2006-02-25 18:21:41
41.   thinkingblue
39.

Actually, I remember late in the season, against the giants, Choi was up late, and struck out with a chance to win the game.
And guess what he struck out on? The curveball from A. Benitez.

2006-02-25 18:24:03
42.   Icaros
LOL.
2006-02-25 18:25:16
43.   Vishal
[41] oh no!!!! how DARE he.
2006-02-25 18:27:51
44.   Bob Timmermann
Who turned on the italics?
2006-02-25 18:28:28
45.   Icaros
Who turned off the italics?
2006-02-25 18:31:40
46.   thinkingblue
43.

That's not the only reason I can go on and on about why Choi is basically a failed experiment.

For example:
He has 42 more Ks than hits.
He hit .207 against lefties.
He is a carrer .240 hitter.
He hit .197 with RISP against righties (.250 against lefties).
He hit .245 with two outs.
He relied on a platoon.
and so on.

2006-02-25 18:33:20
47.   Steve
Phil? Phil Connors? Phil Connors, I thought that was you!

Hey now, don't you tell me you don't remember me 'cause I sure as heckfire remember you.

Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing. Ned Ryerson, got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson, I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to anymore? Well?

2006-02-25 18:34:46
48.   natepurcell
*It's not that it was not fun, it was just stupid. I mean, we were chanting like bleep for the carrer .240 hitter HEE-SEOP CHOI.
That blows, especially when we were chanting "MYP" only a year ago.*

choi 2005> beltre 2005.

2006-02-25 18:36:20
49.   natepurcell
i cant believe this thread has turned into ANOTHER choi debate.
2006-02-25 18:39:29
50.   natepurcell
Which is what Depo did. And of course, he forgot about the 5th starter, infield depth, and forgot to resign Beltre.

in hindsight, i would think not resigning belte proved to be the right move. seattle just payed 17 mil last yr for an offensive season of around 700 OPS.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-02-25 18:39:35
51.   thinkingblue
48.
In what way? Beltre had more HRs, RBIs, and hits.
Bottom line, it is easy for you to say that with hindsight, but did you really think Beltre was going to have a down year? After all, he was an MYP for us. He was easily our best third baseman since Ron Cey. I am sorry, but Beltre is a better player than Choi.
2006-02-25 18:41:27
52.   natepurcell
Meanwhile, Ned is willing to listen to other people (he just hired a senior advisor the other day), and does not try to control the manager, like Depo.

sorry but thats absolutely ridiculous. if depo wasnt willing to listen to people, he would have fired all our scouts and logan white and used his "computer" to draft players.

If depo tried to control the manager, he sure as hell wouldnt have had jason phillips batting 4th and bat izturis leadoff and an endless amount of stupid moves by tracy.

2006-02-25 18:41:42
53.   Andrew Shimmin
What's the deal with MYP? That's twice now, so you're doing it on purpose, right? What does the 'Y' stand for?
2006-02-25 18:41:53
54.   Icaros
Jon should set up an automatic debate generator for our new Choi-hating visitors.

Most of us are too tired to keep making the same points ad infinitum.

2006-02-25 18:41:53
55.   LAT
40. Now you've gone and done it-tying Depo, Choi AND Beltre into one post;-)

As for listening to others, Billy Beane listened to Depo for years. And while you may dispute Depo philosophy its hard to argue with Beane's success. Ned is no proven entity yet. Let's see how this team does.

As for Beltre, why would you have signed him. He had one season where he exceeded his norm and you want to give him 5yr/60M. Yet, Choi exceeds his averages and you call it an aberration and want him released.

Finally, do you really think Ned hasn't put his finger prints all over this roster? Tomko, Baez, Carter, Nomar, Mueller, Sao, Furcal. They may or may not be good moves but they are 100% Ned's. Its a little disingenuous to criticize Depo for the same things you praise in Ned. You just like Ned's moves more. Its ok to like Ned's moves. I hope they turn out to be brilliant but lets be fair.

2006-02-25 18:43:14
56.   natepurcell
51.

more hrs, rbis and hits then what?

i didnt think beltre was going to have that crappy of a year but no way he was going to repeat 2004. look at his career. what year is out of pattern with the rest of his career? it was more likely beltre was going to be average then a superstar. and being average isnt worth the type of contract he demanded and receieved.

2006-02-25 18:43:54
57.   LAT
47. Hilarious!!!
2006-02-25 18:44:50
58.   natepurcell
Its a little disingenuous to criticize Depo for the same things you praise in Ned.

depo is an ivy league nerd. ned is a baseball man!

2006-02-25 18:45:40
59.   natepurcell
steve with the groundhogs day reference should mmake best of DT second edition.
2006-02-25 18:47:21
60.   natepurcell
In what way? Beltre had more HRs, RBIs, and hits.

okay, you are saying that in contrast to choi. i get it.

well all the numbers you pointed out are due to the # of ABs beltre got. of course he had more homeruns, he had about 200+ more ABs. sorry im not buying that argument.

2006-02-25 18:48:05
61.   Ken Arneson
43 is 34, who found a bug in my code.

45 is me trying to fix the bug in 34.

2006-02-25 18:48:47
62.   natepurcell
255/.303/.413

253/.336/.453

wow. i cant believe you rip on choi and still want to resign beltre.

2006-02-25 18:57:44
63.   Steve
If I had a cat, I would be all over the name Rockfish.
2006-02-25 18:58:36
64.   Steve
To be fair, in Utah we had a cat, and its name was Tony Rockford. So I'm a little biased. But who isn't?
2006-02-25 19:01:09
65.   Daniel Zappala
Naming the cat after Casey Kotchman is a classy move.
2006-02-25 19:04:16
66.   thinkingblue
60.
Exactly, imagine if Choi had that many at bats, against lefties no less.
2006-02-25 19:05:25
67.   Steve
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

2006-02-25 19:08:11
68.   thinkingblue
<<As for Beltre, why would you have signed him. He had one season where he exceeded his norm and you want to give him 5yr/60M. Yet, Choi exceeds his averages and you call it an aberration and want him released.<<

Because he hit .334, with 48 home runs, and 121 RBIS!!!!!!! And he was only 25! He, like you Choi people claim with Choi, was stil developing when he finally came through in 2004 When your players finally reward you, are you supposed to just let them go? NO.

No, I said that Saenz was an abberation last year.

Also, when compared with the letting Beltre go, signing Jose Valinetin, and trading for Jason Phillips, doesn't Ned look good?

2006-02-25 19:08:50
69.   Bob Timmermann
63

Rockfish would be a good name, but I think friends wouldn't like it. I decided to opt for a baseball-themed name.

Right now the Mighty Casey is hiding out. (in the closet)

2006-02-25 19:09:09
70.   Steve
Phil? Phil Connors? Phil Connors, I thought that was you!

Hey now, don't you tell me you don't remember me 'cause I sure as heckfire remember you.

Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing. Ned Ryerson, got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson, I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to anymore? Well?

2006-02-25 19:09:45
71.   thinkingblue
What does John Lennon's song have to do with projecting Choi with a full 550+ at bats?
2006-02-25 19:11:22
72.   Steve
69 -- It would take some contextual explanation...every time you mentioned the cat's name. But why would you be afraid of that? That's the fun! (obviously)
2006-02-25 19:11:47
73.   Steve
Why is a raven like a writing desk?
2006-02-25 19:15:35
74.   thinkingblue
You're not making much sense.
2006-02-25 19:18:23
75.   Andrew Shimmin
73- Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are very flat; and it is never put with the wrong end in front!

Or, perhaps you might prefer: I think you might do something better with the time, than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers.

2006-02-25 19:24:00
76.   thinkingblue
52.

Yes, Depo did try and control what went on the field, and his struggles with Tracy are well documented.

2006-02-25 19:24:44
77.   Andrew Shimmin
74- The trouble is, the lot of us have been down this road a million times before you popped in. It was pretty exciting, the first dozen times. Now, just the prospect of it tests a lot of gag reflexes. No offense to you personally, it's just the topic. The never dying, not even with Choi relegated to fourth on the depth chart. Not even with Choi having left the country for a month. It just never dies. Like Herpes.
2006-02-25 19:29:16
78.   Steve
No offense to you personally

None taken. Thank you.

2006-02-25 19:30:47
79.   ToyCannon
Has anyone checked the numbers on how many Scott Boras clients ever resign with the same team they were on during their free agent season? Sure seems like they never do. They might sign an extension before they become a FA but once they are on the market I don't think they ever resign with the original team.

How many HOF hitters have had more strikeouts then hits in their careers? I know of at least one who most Dodger fans should be very familiar with and wish he'd never played baseball. FYI, Adam Dunn has had only 564 hits compared to 733 strikeouts and I don't think to many people who know jack about baseball consider him a failure.

2006-02-25 19:31:57
80.   Andrew Shimmin
78- Would you like a little more tea?
2006-02-25 19:33:04
81.   Steve
And not only that, but Don Knotts died and all we can come up with is this? Though I tried once, I shall try again, for my cause, it is just. Don Knotts was never better than in The Private Eyes. This is a one time only deal. No Deposit, No Return.
2006-02-25 19:34:17
82.   Bob Timmermann
81

Better than "The Apple Dumpling Gang"?

2006-02-25 19:37:10
83.   Steve
I also like Mr. Limpet and Shakiest Gun in the West. Not so much The Ghost and Mr. Chicken. It runs afoul of Ebert's "Silly Names Make Bad Movies" rule.
2006-02-25 19:42:11
84.   Brendan
I think Bob should name his cat Nixon.
2006-02-25 19:46:27
85.   Andrew Shimmin
Nixon (as defined by Kinky Freidman) is what Bob's cat is doing, right now, in his closet.
2006-02-25 19:53:19
86.   ToyCannon
I must have missed the thread where Curt Gowdy passing away was discussed. Of course many people on the West Coast under the age of 40 probably don't even know who Gowdy was.
2006-02-25 19:55:17
87.   Steve
86 -- Nope. Don't think there was one. Pile on. We're desperate.
2006-02-25 20:04:19
88.   Jon Weisman
Don Knotts' passing makes me very sad.

A Choi debate in this thread is certainly ironic. It does seem like a FAQ would spare both sides some frustration and wasted time.

2006-02-25 20:14:24
89.   Marty
Bob, you should name your cat Al Swearingon.
2006-02-25 20:22:15
90.   Steve
I have it on good authority that Scoop Jackson's ESPN column next week will be about Don Knotts.
2006-02-25 20:27:28
91.   Bob Timmermann
"Curt Gowdy" is the top search phrase people have used to find the Griddle in February.
2006-02-25 20:37:48
92.   Marty
Wow, Kolchak is dead too.
2006-02-25 20:43:40
93.   D4P
Cat names for Bob:

Flea Seop
Ja(y)son Furth
The Kittle

2006-02-25 20:50:37
94.   thinkingblue
78

I was responding to Steve's question about the raven. I was asking what the song "Imagine" had to do with projecting Choi.

Also, what I said originally, was why it is so good to have this quiet ST, and that not having to hear the HEE SEOP CHOI chants topped it all.

2006-02-25 20:50:40
95.   dagwich
I went to jr high with Don Knotts' daughter, and even talked with her on the phone a few times. That means, I suppose, that I called his house! Never got invited there, however.

Bob, is it too much for you to at least consider naming the cat "Hee Seop"? That would be so cool.

2006-02-25 20:52:39
96.   Vishal
i was a big don knotts fan. it's sad to see him go.
2006-02-25 20:54:12
97.   Bob Timmermann
I think I will stick with Casey. I went and fetched him from the closet and brought him to my kitchen where there is food, water, and a litter box. He's hiding behind my stove now, which isn't unusual behavior from what people tell me. But at least he'll be able to eat.

I'll leave him there until I take him to the vet Wednesday for his checkup.

2006-02-25 21:07:40
98.   Marty
How old is it Bob? And any particular breed or a rescue?
2006-02-25 21:15:29
99.   Bob Timmermann
I was told the cat is 1 1/2 old and was dropped off at the shelter because his owner wasn't allowed to keep him because of the landlord. He just got to the shelter today so he's been through a lot.

Lynx point, shorthair. He's not a bad looking cat.

When I see him.

2006-02-25 21:23:07
100.   Steve
94 -- You're not making much sense.

92 -- Darren McGavin died? I don't believe you.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-02-25 21:27:23
101.   Steve
In honor of Darren McGavin:

Holy smokes. Do... Do you know what this is? This is... A lamp!

That his last days on earth were spent in the knowledge that ABC desecrated his signature role makes me even angrier about it than before. The Enemies List shall swell tonight.

2006-02-25 21:30:18
102.   deburns
I never thought I would bring this up on this site, but I need to find a home for our house-broken, cute, declawed cat. My wife is in the last stages of a terminal illness, and we need to simplify things around the house.
Please excuse my bringing this up, and feel free to ignore.
I love the site, and don't want to intrude.
2006-02-25 21:32:49
103.   D4P
"It's a klinker!"
2006-02-25 21:33:15
104.   Andrew Shimmin
100- I'm not butting in, again. The only reason I did, the first time, is that, when somebody goes through the looking glass, I want to play, too. And it always seemed like Alice should have had a nicer tour guide than the Cheshire Cat. She didn't know any better. . .
2006-02-25 21:35:08
105.   thinkingblue
100.

I was telling you what I meant by my 94 post.
2006-02-25 21:35:18
106.   thinkingblue
100.

I was telling you what I meant by my 94 post.
2006-02-25 21:36:14
107.   Steve
Why would I care what you meant by your 94 post? I'm trying to talk about Don Knotts and Darren McGavin.
2006-02-25 21:47:18
108.   Steve
Actually, what I've really been trying to do for the last 15 minutes is come up with a way of telling deburns that I wish my best for him and his wife without it sounding empty, and I have come up with nothing. Nevertheless, I do.
2006-02-25 21:48:37
109.   thinkingblue
107.

You were responding to me right?
2006-02-25 21:50:22
110.   Marty
Not a fingah!!!
2006-02-25 21:52:40
111.   D4P
Fra-gee-lay...must be Italian!

(Haven't we discussed that one before?)

2006-02-25 21:53:13
112.   overkill94
Is it bad that the only version of Darren McGavin I know is Billy Madison's dad?
2006-02-25 21:53:49
113.   Steve
I kid you not, Grandpa Jack got a leg lamp for Christmas this year. Big laughs around the tree.
2006-02-25 21:55:38
114.   Steve
109 -- I don't know any more. Everything's sort of a light haze. Do you have a favorite Night Stalker episode?
2006-02-25 21:56:44
115.   Marty
I've pronounced it frageelay since I first saw the movie.
2006-02-25 21:58:36
116.   Marty
My first memory of Darren McGavin is in the Delicate Delinquent. A movie not on my top ten list, but memorable none-the-less.
2006-02-25 21:59:19
117.   D4P
"(Tapestry of indecipherable obscenities ending with something that sounds like) hostical phi-FAH!"
2006-02-25 22:02:33
118.   Steve
Over 200 IMDB acting credits died today. But this is what gets me. From the New York Times:

Mr. Knotts died of pulmonary and respiratory complications at U.C.L.A. Medical Center in Beverly Hills, said Paul Ward, a spokesman for the cable network TV Land, which broadcasts "The Andy Griffith Show" and another hit co-starring Mr. Knotts, "Three's Company."

I have to say that in all sincerity, if a TV executive were to announce my death, I would have died a happy man.

2006-02-25 22:16:37
119.   Xeifrank
Waiting for spring training to heat up and the TV talk to die down. Had a quiet day. Learned how to fix a garbage disposal, on accident watched some of the Tour de Amgen that passed by the house and sat in on a Lewis and Clark history/art exhibition at the local library. Got my library card, brand new library opens soon... Bob would be very proud. vr, Xei
2006-02-25 22:16:54
120.   Bob Timmermann
So Darren McGavin wasn't engaged to Charlize Theron?
2006-02-25 22:21:14
121.   Steve
119 -- A special dispensation was required tonight. We beg your indulgence.

104 -- Here's the part I was looking for:

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

2006-02-25 22:29:29
122.   Steve
120 -- That was Tom Poston.
2006-02-25 22:38:57
123.   Steve
Oh Mrs. Peacock, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

http://tinyurl.com/eagyn

2006-02-25 23:11:58
124.   das411
112 - THAT's who you've been talking about?!?!? :( :(

119 - XF, is it too late to start simulating just a spring training season?

2006-02-25 23:28:34
125.   oldbear
Does anyone find the titled post, and the subsequent posted comments/conversation in this thread ironic?

DT readers just casually sitting around chatting. A visitor runs in. DT readers continue to casually chat. The visitor leaves. And the DT readers continue their chat.

I think I like this silence, or shall I say apathy.

2006-02-25 23:42:44
126.   Woody
"Nip it, nip it in the bud, Andy".
Rest in peace, Barney.
2006-02-26 00:01:01
127.   LAT
102. Deburns, I am sorry for your situation. I hope things go as well as they can given the circumstances. As for the cat, do you live in LA? I work in an office with about 300 people and will ask around, assuming you are local.
2006-02-26 00:21:34
128.   Steve
Apathy is hard work.
2006-02-26 01:02:46
129.   thinkblue0
68-

" Because he hit .334, with 48 home runs, and 121 RBIS!!!!!!! And he was only 25! He, like you Choi people claim with Choi, was stil developing when he finally came through in 2004 When your players finally reward you, are you supposed to just let them go? NO."

uhh..YES! You're not putting yourself in the owner or gm's shoes when you say that. From the get go I thought it was a good move not t sign Beltre and people thought that was just because I liked Depo...not true. It was because I don't feel comfortable giving insane money to a guy who has ONE great season (that also happened to be in his walk year). It's just too risky. Even if Beltre did continue his tear I still would have thought it was a good non-move. You simply can't invest that much in a guy who has one great year in his contract year...that's just too shady.

Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.

"Also, when compared with the letting Beltre go, signing Jose Valinetin, and trading for Jason Phillips, doesn't Ned look good? "

not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...

2006-02-26 01:10:16
130.   natepurcell
i love grady little because he loves chad billingsley :)

http://tinyurl.com/syv5v

ps: tonight was fun. i love parties when girls are making out right in front of me.

2006-02-26 01:17:21
131.   Steve
nate, I promise when I link to something (123), it is not a Darren McGavin obituary.
2006-02-26 01:19:36
132.   Andrew Shimmin
102- I'm sorry, deburns. Have you considered posting on craig's list?

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/pet/

It should be free to list. Best possible luck.

2006-02-26 01:22:17
133.   Steve
Not that it would be a problem to link to Darren McGavin's obituary. We often link to non-sports websites, such as scout.com
2006-02-26 01:26:27
134.   natepurcell
haha sorry steveeee.

oh madn college iz fuen burt im out of alcohold!

2006-02-26 01:41:40
135.   Andrew Shimmin
Bill Plaschke doesn't like Bode Miller.

He likes some guy nobody's ever heard of, better.

Me too.

Too bad nobody's willing to pay me for that.

2006-02-26 06:10:56
136.   Jon Weisman
Deburns, I can't express how sorry I am.
2006-02-26 09:26:49
137.   Bob Timmermann
I'm very sorry for you deburns as well.

I know with everything going on, it's hard to keep track of things that don't seem as important. My father practically ignored our family cat after my mother passed away. But he had a lot on his mind obviously.

2006-02-26 09:49:00
138.   deburns
127 LAT and everyone else. Thank you for your good thoughts, expressed or inexpressable. Bob, is that "-ible" or "-able"?
And yes, I live on the West Side of LA, so I would appreciate any potential adoptors. I can send photos and a little note about him.
Don
2006-02-26 09:57:55
139.   Bob Timmermann
I had to doublecheck and look it up.

Inexpressible.

2006-02-26 10:28:39
140.   Suffering Bruin
138

Were I not allergic to cats like most of us are to another Choi argument, I'd do it. I live in WestLA and I teach so I'm contact with too many people a day. I'll ask around. My deepest sympathies for your situation. I usually check the site once a day so I'll see what I can find out about a new home for the cat unless some of the other good people beat me to it.

2006-02-26 10:30:05
141.   thinkingblue
<<uhh..YES! You're not putting yourself in the owner or gm's shoes when you say that. From the get go I thought it was a good move not t sign Beltre and people thought that was just because I liked Depo...not true. It was because I don't feel comfortable giving insane money to a guy who has ONE great season (that also happened to be in his walk year). It's just too risky. Even if Beltre did continue his tear I still would have thought it was a good non-move. You simply can't invest that much in a guy who has one great year in his contract year...that's just too shady.<<

Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.

<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<

His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.

<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<

Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.

2006-02-26 10:30:16
142.   thinkingblue
<<uhh..YES! You're not putting yourself in the owner or gm's shoes when you say that. From the get go I thought it was a good move not t sign Beltre and people thought that was just because I liked Depo...not true. It was because I don't feel comfortable giving insane money to a guy who has ONE great season (that also happened to be in his walk year). It's just too risky. Even if Beltre did continue his tear I still would have thought it was a good non-move. You simply can't invest that much in a guy who has one great year in his contract year...that's just too shady.<<

Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.

<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<

His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.

<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<

Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.

2006-02-26 10:30:18
143.   thinkingblue
<<uhh..YES! You're not putting yourself in the owner or gm's shoes when you say that. From the get go I thought it was a good move not t sign Beltre and people thought that was just because I liked Depo...not true. It was because I don't feel comfortable giving insane money to a guy who has ONE great season (that also happened to be in his walk year). It's just too risky. Even if Beltre did continue his tear I still would have thought it was a good non-move. You simply can't invest that much in a guy who has one great year in his contract year...that's just too shady.<<

Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around.

<<not yet he doesn't. I like a lot of his moves, but we still have a whole season to play. The moves he made are really shaky though. What will Tomko do? Will Nomar stay healthy? Will Lofton repeat his good season? Which Seo is the real Seo? Again, I'm not ragging on his moves and I hope like everyone else that everything pans out. But there is a loooooooong way to go before we start praising the Colletti era...<<

His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA.

<<Also, there is a huge difference between Beltre and Choi. None of us are saying Choi is Pujols or anything, and he sure as heck wouldn't cost us 5/60. Not to mention, a lot of us just want to see what Choi can do given a regular gig. If he stinks it up, then fine at least we know. The problem with Beltre is that he had a regular job for years and was average and then he explodes in his contract year. Choi simply hasn't even gotten his shot.<<

Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit.

2006-02-26 10:31:16
144.   thinkingblue
Why was my post posted twice? If theres a mod, delete one of them.
2006-02-26 10:33:51
145.   Steve
This is taking the Groundhog Day meme a little too far, but then again, I just used the word "meme," which requires all of us to take another drink. Except for Nate, who is out of alcohol.
2006-02-26 10:37:02
146.   Icaros
Okay, new DT rule:

No more mentioning this site at dodgers.com.

2006-02-26 10:43:01
147.   Blu2
I thought $12 million was too much for Beltre. But when the idiot gives $13 million to Furcal, I now realize $15 is too little! If Furcal doesn't hit .290+, with 30+ dingers and 100+ ribbies, then we got , er, ahh, sexually assaulted.
2006-02-26 10:54:56
148.   willhite
138 -

deburns, let me add my thoughts to those already expressed. Although Jon has set up this blog as a Dodger-oriented site, there is also a real sense of family here. When one of us is going through tough times, we all feel it.

I'm sure you'll have no problem in finding a good home for a cute, young cat, but if nothing develops I suggest you do a search on cat rescues. These organizations will hold the cat until it's adopted so you have no worry about the ultimate welfare of your pet, as you might if you took it to a shelter.

Good luck.

2006-02-26 10:58:16
149.   Vishal
"players who know how to play the game". that's right up there with playing the game "the way it should be played".
2006-02-26 11:03:23
150.   Icaros
"players who know how to play the game"

So is that, like, knowing what base to run to and stuff?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-02-26 11:07:54
151.   Steve
Lewis Carroll, pre-dating Bill James:

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.

"I don't much care where –" said Alice.

"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.

"– so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation.

"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."

2006-02-26 11:10:32
152.   ImChuck
Seriously, do all Dodgers.com posters post to pick a text-fight? I've seen more heated arguments there than any other boards combined. And to think I thought DT was a safe-haven from that...

For heaven sakes, leave Choi alone! The topic is old/so last season/tried. Please don't take DT down that Dodgers.com road.

2006-02-26 11:13:04
153.   Andrew Shimmin
141, 142, 143- You're conflating two, at least, different arguments. One is over DePo with or without Choi. The other is over Colletti. If Colletti is better than DePo, does that make him good? Considering that DePo was teh suxxor, wouldn't Colletti have to prove that he was better than other GMs who are any good, not just a bad one?

Unrelated: I conducted me own little expirement, a la Xeifrank. I added up the batting averages of last years 40 man roster, and this years likely 40 man. Then I divided by the number of letters in the GM's last name. DePo totally p0wned Colletti. So, there you go.

2006-02-26 11:32:56
154.   mountainmover
My 10 cents on Depo:

http://ladodgertalk.com/2006/02/26/my-final-word-on-depodesta--beltre.aspx

2006-02-26 11:34:23
155.   regfairfield
That's actually pretty surpring (assuming you actually did this). DePo's batting averages/nine is greater than Colletti's/eight?
2006-02-26 11:35:46
156.   Steve
153 -- Did you test your findings against the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?
2006-02-26 11:37:13
157.   Steve
155 -- Be careful in Wonderland. Things aren't always as they seem there.
2006-02-26 11:42:21
158.   Andrew Shimmin
155- D-E-P-O. I count four.
2006-02-26 11:44:11
159.   D4P
D-E-P-O = 4
F-L-A-N-D-E-R-S = 8
2006-02-26 11:49:25
160.   regfairfield
Ah, not actual last name. Got it.
2006-02-26 11:52:20
161.   Andrew Shimmin
156- BA/GM transcends Heisenberg! It assigns values, with full precision, to UNobservable variables. That's how I roll, yo.
2006-02-26 11:52:28
162.   Steve
This is like the K-EARTH of DT threads.
2006-02-26 11:54:26
163.   Andrew Shimmin
160- If you want to get semantic about it, I didn't actually do this. It seemed like too far to go for a joke that wasn't that funny. If Plaschke were writing a hit piece about DT, he'd question my commitment.
2006-02-26 11:54:40
164.   LAT
138 Deburns, when you have time, you can send me a photo and a note about him/her to l.tabb@mpglaw.com

I will circulate it. I actually rescued my dog through some people in my office who are involved in pet placements so I know they will try.

2006-02-26 11:58:09
165.   Andrew Shimmin
154- Somebody should compliment your binary joke. That's the sort of thing that needs to be nurtured. Way to go, there.
2006-02-26 11:59:29
166.   GoBears
First of all, I'd like to thank my fellow long-time citizens of DT-land for their good humored restraint in this thread. An argument can't really happen as a monologue (well, unless schizophrenia is involved).

Second, it has occurred to me that another way to characterize the distinctiveness of this site and its patrons is that, in addition to Jon's explicit "no swearing" and "no politics" rules, there is an implicit "no explanation points" norm as well. It gets violated every now and then, but not often. If you really feel like you need to shout, do it somewhere else, then come back and contribute here with calm, reasoned open-mindedness.

No swearing.
No politics.
No shouting.

Unless Jim Tracy is the subject.

2006-02-26 12:05:13
167.   Vishal
what's wrong with exclamation points?!!?!

i always thought TYPING IN CAPS denoted shouting on the internet.

2006-02-26 12:08:06
168.   Steve
Jim Tracy is a BLEEPING Communist!
2006-02-26 12:09:13
169.   GoBears
<shakes head in mock disappointment.

Boys, boys.....

2006-02-26 12:10:18
170.   Bob Timmermann
Approved punctuation marks: . , ( [ < @ # % : & * and ?

In an emergency only: ! ~

Banned: ;

2006-02-26 12:14:07
171.   Vishal
[170] that's totally unfair; you're just prejudiced against semicolons.
2006-02-26 12:15:44
172.   Steve
Jim Tracy is a BLEEPING Communist; Steelers fans will love him.
2006-02-26 12:25:14
173.   King of the Hobos
Good luck to whoever tries to use a > and a < in the reverse order
2006-02-26 12:26:32
174.   D4P
?What's wrong with communists?
2006-02-26 12:31:23
175.   willhite
174 -

They tend to be Giants fans

2006-02-26 12:33:31
176.   D4P
Do communists tend to be Giants fans or do Giants fans tend to be communists?
2006-02-26 12:36:29
177.   Johnson
174 Don't you read all the complaints here about Plashke and Simers?

Oh, communists, not colum...never mind.

2006-02-26 12:36:58
178.   willhite
177 -

Actually communists tend to be Reds fans

2006-02-26 12:37:56
179.   willhite
178 -

sorry, was answering 176

2006-02-26 12:38:05
180.   De Ruijter
The great shame of the communist movement will always be the '61 Series, where the headline of "Reds defeat Yankees" never made it to print.
2006-02-26 12:41:13
181.   willhite
Do communists, by definition, believe in parity and capitalists believe in Steinbrenner?
2006-02-26 12:49:22
182.   Bob Timmermann
180
But there was the 1976 World Series.
2006-02-26 13:34:31
183.   Xeifrank
The Depodesta Dodgers continue to make mince meat out of the pre-season NL West competition.

NL West Standings
Standings
Team W L GB Streak
PD Dodgers 31 14 _ Won 5
DBacks 24 21 7 Lost 5
NC Dodgers 22 23 9 Lost 1
Giants 22 23 9 Won 3
Padres 20 25 11 Won 1
Rockies 16 29 15 Lost 3

2006-02-26 13:37:00
184.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Regarding the resurgence of the HS Choi debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Trolls

Just a good read, and the motto, "don't feed the trolls," pretty well sums it up.

(This would be more appropriate about 100 posts back, but I wasn't around the discussion...)

2006-02-26 13:38:55
185.   Linkmeister
182 But was there a John Reed to memorialize the events?

I'm feeling grumpy. A friend and I had planned to go to see the UH-USC baseball game this afternoon, but it's so rainy and gloomy that we decided we'd cancel. The game may go on, but without us. UH has won the first two games in the series, so it likely would have been an SC victory anyway.

So I'm doing the laundry that otherwise wouldn't have gotten done till tomorrow.

2006-02-26 14:02:42
186.   Bob Timmermann
The 1976 World Series should be described as five days that really bored the world.
2006-02-26 14:07:18
187.   Vishal
[183] how slow is this simulation?? is it going to take an entire 6 months? can't you do 162 games in one day?
2006-02-26 14:14:00
188.   Brendan
There seems to be some hope of Piazza entering the HOF as a Dodger. In the LAT today, Piazza said that Lasorda was instrumental in convincing Mike to sign with the Padres. I'm sure Tommy will try to convince Mike to become the first LA Dodger position player to enter the Hall( any NY mets in the Hall? Did Gary carter go in as an Expo or a Met? I don't recall)
2006-02-26 14:16:07
189.   thinkblue0
141-

"Beltre was rushed to the major leauges. Also, he was 25! And a power hitting 3B! In fact, he hit the most home runs for a 3B since Mike Schmidt. I am sorry, but 12 million a year is ok. Especially if Furcal is worth 13 million a year. Beltre was player, who you could build around."

I really don't understand how you can have that point of view. Beltre had ONE good season, then absolutely stunk it up after we let him go...yet you still say he's worth all the money he got? As of right now, he's a giant bust until he proves otherwise. The difference between him and Furcal is #1 less years and #2 Furcal is a proven player. Beltre for all we know is a one hit wonder.

"His moves have been brilliant. He has gotten players who know how to play the game. Where as Depo was willing to go with Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips (who hit .216 the year before). And Valinetin who hit like .228 the year before. Mean while, Nomar is not far removed from being an elite player, Lofton hit .335 the year before, Mueller is a .292 hitter, Seo had a 2.59 ERA."

Brilliant? don't you think that's going a bit far? You're assuming all of Flander's's's's moves pan out which is a giant question mark. You say Nomar isn't far from elite but seem to be forgetting the guy is perpetually hurt. You mention that Lofton had a great year last year but ignore previous years before that where he was average at best. You talk about Seo's 2.59 ERA but fail to mention his numbers before that.

The bottom line is that none of us should be praising Colletti yet until we see exactly what these guys are going to do. If Nomar stays healthy then yes we have an elite player...but that's a giant IF. Same with guys like Lofton and Seo...if they perform how we want them to perform then Colletti will look great but if they don't, then Colletti will look pretty bad. It's just way too early to be calling Colletti's moves brilliant.

"Maybe there's a reason for Choi not starting. Like the fact that he has done NOTHING when he is in there. He has struck out more times than he has gotten a hit."

Choi always was great at drawing walks (before Tracy messed that up), has HUGE power potential, and was tied for the best FPCT and had the best RF amongst NL first baseman last year. Yeah, he's done nothing alright...If anything, what he has done while in there should warrant him getting a platoon job with Saenz at the minimum. This team would be far better off putting Nomar in LF and Saenz/Choi at first because they're going to put up better numbers than Lofton.

Also, I love how all the Depo haters bring up Valentin, Phillips etc but always fail to mention Kent, Sanchez, Werth (who was big for us in that second half), the fact that he jettisoned an overpaid catcher and worn out reliever etc etc. I'm not saying I'm the bigggest Depo fan in the world, but the fact that people are so selective with his bad moves yet fail to mention his good moves always gives me a chuckle.

2006-02-26 14:25:34
190.   MartinBillingsley31
189

AMEN BROTHER!

I couldn't have said it better.

2006-02-26 14:44:07
191.   Andrew Shimmin
I'm not sure the guy was a troll. He may just be new. When you spend ten plus years being told all the nonsense that baseball fans get told, it takes a little while to adopt the non-nonsense. I'm also not sure that young people (cheeky of me, to say) understand how irksome their typographical eccentricities are to normal people.
2006-02-26 15:07:57
192.   MartinBillingsley31
Here is what i'm hoping for either right out of spring training(which i highly doubt) or eventually this season.

c navarro/martin
1b choi/seanz
2b kent
ss furcal
3b guzman or nomar
of drew, cruz, guzman or nomar

bench mueller, lofton, aybar, ledee, and catcher 1b who is not starting.

penny
lowe
perez
seo
tomko(unfortunately i don't think billingsley will be ready, i wish tho, so we can dump tomko)

bullpen gagne, baez, brazo, broxton, osoria, kuo

Even tho i talk smack about lofton and mueller, they both are great assets to have for the bench.

2006-02-26 15:10:41
193.   Jon Weisman
I think the most disappointing part of this thread, other than the truly terrible news within, was how quickly some demonized a commenter just for having a different point of view. Telling a person or group of people that they don't deserve to be here, when they haven't broken any rules of the site, is wrong.
2006-02-26 15:41:36
194.   oldbear
192. Things would be much simpler if Nomar was in LF, Bradley was still in CF, and Tomko had never been signed.

Maybe after the A's win the World Series and the McCourts lose money this year, Frank will switch gears yet again.

2006-02-26 16:00:57
195.   Suffering Bruin
HSC FAQ (first draft)

Wha?
That stands for "Hee-Seop Choi Frequently Asked Questions."

Why?
Some think it's necessary because this subject has been tilled to death.

Okay... suppose I'm a newbie to the site. What do I need to know and why is Choi a centerpiece?
It's difficult to know what you mean by centerpiece but I'll assume you mean that Choi has been the subject of considerable focus and debate on this website and as such learning more about him means we can learn more about the site in general.

If you want to get verbose, be my guest.
My pleasure.

So what gives?
The sites creator, Jon Weisman, has rightly or wrongly been described as a "SABR" guy, meaning he admires Bill James, likes stats with acronyms like VORP, WARP, EQA, EQR and other things mathematical. The commenters of DT seem to like these numbers, too. So does a guy named Paul DePodesta.

Didn't he used to be GM?
Yep.

I don't understand what this has to do with Choi.
DePodesta traded Paul LoDuca, Guillermo Mota and Juan Encarnacion for Brad Penny and HSC, by far the most controversial trade the Dodgers have made since Mike Piazza went to Florida.

Why did he do that?
DePodesta felt that LoDuca was a 32-year old catcher who had some value but that he was a player on the decline and additionally was due for a fat contract. He felt Mota played a position that was about as reliable year-to-year as grain futures and that Encarnacion chewed AB's unecessarily. He felt that Brad Penny was underappreciated as a starting pitcher and that HSC was the exact opposite of Lo Duca: a relative unknown with unimpressive triple crown stats but a hidden star because of his ability ot draw walks.

What would the detractors of the trade say?
They'd say that Paul LoDuca was a guy who gave his all to the Dodgers, who played hard every day and was a great guy to have in the clubhouse. They would also say that Mota was a crucial stepping stone to Gagne and most all, the trade is disruptive and would adversely affect the chemistry in the clubhouse.

How did the trade work out?
The Dodgers won the division.

Because of or in spite of the trade?
Let's move on.

I still don't know why we're talking here. What's the big deal about HSC?
For those not inclined or hostile to the point of view of DePodesta, Beane or Baseball Prospectus or weblogs about baseball (a group, I might add, that can disagree about a number of things) HSC represents all this right about sabermetrics: a low-average, clumsy looking guy with an ugly swing who nevertheless is able to help a team score runs because of his proven ability to draw walks. He is young, he has impressive minor-league stats... yet he doesn't play.

And the opposition would say...
That this is no time for experiments. Choi is not graceful, he does not have a pretty swing and he has played for three teams now, all of whom have come to the conclusion that he is not a full-time player and hardly a part-time player.

Can we talk about this some more? This sounds interesting!
I'm glad you think so but we'd prefer not to since, again, this subject has been gone over ad nauseam and since Choi is a longshot to be a Dodger by the start of the season--he'll probably be traded, sent to the minors or released--we are all becoming sick of the subject.

All?
Well, not Suffering Bruin but he's always been a little different.

2006-02-26 16:06:45
196.   Steve
With due respect to SB's effort, commenter Wayne wrote the definitive post on Choi months ago. That could just be posted as a disclaimer on every future post. Then new people can just argue with Wayne's old post.
2006-02-26 16:08:16
197.   Suffering Bruin
196

Oops...

I knew I should check this site more often. And as fast as I wrote it, I'd hardly call it an effort!:)

Where is Wayne's post?

2006-02-26 16:12:18
198.   dzzrtRatt
193 Jon,

I haven't posted for a little while (it being off-season and like you said, quiet), but I think this thread is an interesting case study on blogs.

You have formed a community here. Your regular posters come back on the deadest days in Dodgerdom to chat with each other. Like any community, there's a shared history, in-jokes, well-known prejudices and hot buttons, etc. It's part of what we come back for. Actually, it's almost all of what we come back for. It's a benign clique and a very amusing one.

So along comes a new guy, thinkingblue, who from his perspective is making a point as valid as any other about last season. He wasn't here for the 200 previous discussion on the topic of Choi. The community's response was not so much to condemn him for having that p.o.v. (contra-Choi, pro-Beltre), as to express frustration that a tired old discussion has been revived again.

Tired, however, only to the "community." Not tired, necessarily, to thinkingblue or any of the dozens of newcomers who probably show up here every day, wondering if it's safe to jump in.

There's really no appropriate admonition here. You can't blame a community for acting like a community, especially when "community" is the most prominent feature of this site. But you certainly don't want posters like thinkingblue to feel unwelcome. Especially since he was perfectly civil, far as I could see.

Someone mentioned an FAQ. That might be one way to address this. Give newcomers a chance to, at least, catch up on the lingo and understand what goes on here. You're going to get a lot more visitors as Opening Day approaches. They might enjoy it more if they understand who Steve is, who Bob Timmerman is, what their likely reactions will be to, say, Jim Tracy and Frank Robinson, respectively.

Just a thought.

2006-02-26 16:17:06
199.   Andrew Shimmin
dzzrtRatt is, as always, a billion percent right. There needs to be a Steve FAQ. Maybe a Choi one, but definitely a Steve one.
2006-02-26 16:22:22
200.   willhite
Glad to see you back Ratt. I agree whole heartedly with Andrew in that I almost always find myself completely agreeing with your posts. They tend to be well thought out and well written, and yes (199) we most certainly need a Steve FAQ
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-02-26 16:24:54
201.   Andrew Shimmin
197- This is the WWSH post

Although I think Choi should start at 1B, a 110 OPS+ at a traditional power position for a league average fielder isn't actually all that much to get excited about. I know Choi looks okay in the NL (I think Jon had some figures on this), but just because we don't have as many traditional slugger corner IFs in the league today doesn't mean that 1B isn't still a traditional power position. I think it's fine in our circumstances, especially when you've got a potential HOFer at 2B and a stud at SS, but as a 1B at least, I think it's defensible to say that Choi's raw numbers have not been what one would normally expect out of that position.

I actually think those numbers should be adjusted for misuse by Tracy, and the hope that Choi will improve, but really, the way certain stats were bandied around here on this thread as objective truth to support one position seems a bit much at times. The raw stats only show that Choi has so far been an okay player--his career OPS+ is 107 and his fielding Rate2 is 99. His career EqA is 275, league average being set at 260. Assuming one didn't have a Kent and Furcal in the IF, and that Choi didn't improve (a debatable but possible proposition), Choi would be a below-average 1B. That's all the raw objective numbers say so far.

2006-02-26 16:30:49
202.   das411
188 - I think the Mets had some guy named Tom Terrific get into the HoF, didn't he have something like 99% of the vote that year?

198 - Amen! I still have not seen an official definition of The Grabowski Principle, just that horrifying movie that I think Nate found that one time.

200 - Where is that classic Steve rant where he compares Choi's #s to every other 1B in the league?

2006-02-26 16:34:13
203.   King of the Hobos
If I may, can I direct our attention today's Dodgers.com photo gallery, part I, picture 3. Here we see Kent with Lofton. However, I noticed something...Kent doesn't have his signature pornstache. What gives? Am I just missing it in the lighting? Did he shave it? Is he instead growing a beard?
2006-02-26 16:34:17
204.   Bob Timmermann
188, 202
Gary Carter has an Expos cap on his HOF plaque.

202

The Grabowski Principle is that when a pitcher gives up a hit (usually one that is well struck) to a hitter as bad as Jason Grabowksi, he must be removed from the game immediately if the ultimate outcome of the game still hangs in the balance.

2006-02-26 16:36:16
205.   willhite
Has anyone noticed how many smiling photos there are of Kent on dodgers.com? The daily photo posts are full of them. Today we get one of our new Mr. Cheerful with his arm around Lofton's shoulder.

I just hope Kent doesn't play better mad, or we may be in for a long season. First Bonds, then Milton. We'd better find someone to upset him before the season starts.

2006-02-26 16:38:33
206.   natepurcell
http://www.orange32.com/grabowski/

we are the grabowskis wild and free, what you get is what you see!"

for the next DT meet up, we all should buy a grabowski t-shirt from there and wear it!

2006-02-26 16:38:39
207.   willhite
204 -

I thought the Grabowski Principle was that if a pitcher gave up a hit to G. he was immediately sent to Japan.

2006-02-26 16:46:59
208.   LAT
Five Things the Newcomers Will Wonder About:

1. Is Bob really that smart or does he have a library at his fingertips?

2. Who is Becker and why does he aggravate our host so much?

3. What is Marty making for dinner?

4. Danica McKellar? Don't they mean Danica Patrick?

5. "Who is Phil Conners?"

2006-02-26 16:56:38
209.   Daniel Zappala
A brief interruption for those of us who are Angels fans as well ... Percival has likely thrown his last pitch:

http://tinyurl.com/qy4o9

My enduring image of Percival will be his last pitch thrown in the 2002 World Series, stretching back and raising his arms in triumph, as if to say --- this one's for you Gene!

2006-02-26 16:58:08
210.   Bob Timmermann
208
1. Is Bob really that smart or does he have a library at his fingertips?

I'm really that smart.

2006-02-26 16:59:32
211.   LAT
I know that Bob, but they don't.
2006-02-26 17:03:37
212.   D4P
6. Is Bob really Ken Jennings, or does he just play him on this blog?
2006-02-26 17:04:04
213.   King of the Hobos
Here's an article on why Lajoie joined the Dodgers:

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=128082&format=&page=1

2006-02-26 17:10:05
214.   oldbear
Repko FAQ's?
Izturis FAQ's?
Tomko FAQ's?
Ramon Martinez FAQ's?
Lance Carter FAQ's?
Sandy Alomar FAQ's?

To retain sanity and thus apathy, I believe I'll need these before the start of the season. Even moreso than the Choi FAQ's.

2006-02-26 17:18:20
215.   mountainmover
You know, I pay attention to all the stats... and there are more and more every year. It seems like everything can be measured by a statistic. WHIP, OPS, VORP, et al, but stats fail to consider the power and resilience of the human spirit and stats cannot begin to measure "heart."

Put one foot into ice water and the other into boiling water and statistics will say that on average, you are fine. Anyone who ever tries that will attest to the fallicy of statistics!

HS Choi? Stats may prove something, but take away one week last year and see what Choi's stats say. Forget the stats - watch him - I could get him out! He has a nice eye for a number 2 hitter, but he is slow and lumbering (Tony Jackson's words) and should be in a power slot. Stats may say he stays - watch him and even Ray Charles could see otherwise!

It was incumbent upon Tracy to see what Choi was capable of - he should have played full time last year - but he didn't and we don't have the time to see if he can play.
Let him go somewhere else and play - I doubt we will regret it!

2006-02-26 17:25:44
216.   bhsportsguy
Here is the answer to the Jacksonville 5 question from today's Dodger notes

"Over the first two weeks of Spring Training, they [Ned and Grady] got to see many of those prospect jewels. A bunch of them were on display when Chad Billingsley, the top pitching prospect, threw batting practice to Andy LaRoche, Joel Guzman, James Loney and Russell Martin.

That Big Five, which helped make Double-A Jacksonville Baseball America's Minor League Team of the Year in 2005, figures to advance as a unit to Triple-A Las Vegas in 2006.

http://tinyurl.com/jj4e8

2006-02-26 17:32:25
217.   Vishal
[215] stats may not measure heart, but neither can you. i say hee seop has a ton of heart; prove me wrong.
2006-02-26 17:33:16
218.   Suffering Bruin
198 Hey, hey! Great to see that name. Icaros and now you! Hope all is good.

215 People are sick of this subject but for me, it never fails to fascinate. I've written this before and I'll say it again: I like Tony Jackson a lot. But I think Tony and many, many others spent time concentrating on the things Choi is not and they come to the conclusion that he's a stiff who can't play. Choi is not a contact hitter, he's not scrappy, he's not personally or professionally aggressive. The conclusion seems logical enough: if you're playing pick-up baseball and Choi is against the fence, he ain't getting picked for a while because like you said, with a swing like that he can't be any good, right? Except he is pretty good and for the past two years he's been at least as good as Garciaparra and he's younger, healthier... and if I took a weeks worth of games away from a part-time player--his best games--I could put a serious dent in the stats, too.

Good to see you here, too, by the by. Welcome if I haven't seen you before and welcome back if you've been here before.

2006-02-26 17:35:59
219.   LAT
This may have been mentioned already, but this lays to rest the name on the unis issue.

http://tinyurl.com/fgdkw

2006-02-26 17:51:01
220.   oldbear
215. "Forget the stats - watch him - I could get him out!"

You must have pesky arm angles.

2006-02-26 18:00:24
221.   dzzrtRatt
Thanks for the nice comments. I've never really been away, but I haven't had anything to add lately. I do subscribe to Jon's site on my My Yahoo! feed and always read his new posts. I figure as decisions start getting made in Vero, the Jon posts will become more fast 'n' furious, and so will the action here. Choi's status might well become a historical curio, layered over by posts on Billingsley, Guzman, Nomar... Already I learned something new: Kent shaved his mustache. Maybe he had some snarky bet with Colletti about whether Bonds would report to Spring Training on time.

I've also started my own blog, which only occasionally references baseball. If anyone's interested, you'll find out some facts about me, like my name and ...a few other details of note.

I was pleased that when Kevin Roderick told the world about my blog, he did so in the same post he announced Bob Timmerman's. A harmonic convergence known only to me, but it made me smile.

Here's the URL:

www.johnstodderinexile.wordpress.com

2006-02-26 18:04:14
222.   dzzrtRatt
P.S. My deepest sympathies to deburns. I've been where you are--7 years ago. This is an awful time for you. I hope as you simplify your life you keep the door open to your friends and family on both sides, if you can. Especially if you're the main caregiver. You need a chance to unwind now and then, and so does your wife. Dying is an awfully serious business, but I think the passage is helped when you both can be surrounded by those who know/knew you when life was not so heavy; and can keep reminding you of the lighter days. Some of the best days I had at the end with my former wife were when friends and family came over to, basically, say goodbye to her. These occasions were anything but depressing; often they were joyful.

Not to second-guess your decision about the cat, but for what it's worth, it's a totem of normal life that might be reassuring at times. But obviously there are other factors at play.

Anyway, write me offline at dzzrtRatt@hotmail.com if you wanted to discuss anything with someone who can relate.

2006-02-26 18:04:41
223.   Bob Timmermann
I would beg to differ that no one pick Choi on the playground. He's a big guy. You wouldn't want to mess with him.
2006-02-26 18:07:28
224.   mountainmover
Vishal,

I did not equate heart (or lack thereof) with HS Choi. I merely compared it to statistics! I was a big Choi fan after the trade, but Tracy butchered him. We can't wait another year to see if he can be an everyday 1B. I do not doubt his heart - my brother has more "heart" than anyone I have ever seen (except me), but he can't play 1B for the Dodgers either! I watch his swing and realize he's never going to be what I wanted him to be.

Finally, this is not a racist question (my wife is Asian as are my stepchildren), but are your Asian?

Oldbear,

I am 52 Years Old, but about 30 years ago, my flat, straight fastball was clocked at 97 MPH at a Cincinnati Reds tryout camp. I had plenty of heart, just no movement and no curve & no pesky arm angles...

Heart won't get it!

2006-02-26 18:07:30
225.   oldbear
218. I love when people say "take out that 1 week in June"... They fail to realize that June was actually Choi's worst month at the plate.

Choi batting 2nd:
Games: 44
ABs: 158
BA: .316
OBP: .391
SLG: .646

I posted these stats at a few boards and wondered if the Choi haters would say these are flukes or what not.

Can 44 games be fluke? I suppose. But here's the response I got.

Choi Fan- "Here are Choi's stats. Most baseball fans would approve of them"

Choi Hater= "He only hits good in the 2nd spot bc he gets easy fastballs to hit"

Choi Fan- "But you told me last week that Choi's bat was slow and he couldnt hit fastballs, right?"

Choi Hater--"Err...stats are meaningless. I dont care what they say I could get Choi out"

A Choi FAQ is needed btw.

2006-02-26 18:07:47
226.   mountainmover
Vishal,

I did not equate heart (or lack thereof) with HS Choi. I merely compared it to statistics! I was a big Choi fan after the trade, but Tracy butchered him. We can't wait another year to see if he can be an everyday 1B. I do not doubt his heart - my brother has more "heart" than anyone I have ever seen (except me), but he can't play 1B for the Dodgers either! I watch his swing and realize he's never going to be what I wanted him to be.

Finally, this is not a racist question (my wife is Asian as are my stepchildren), but are you Asian?

Oldbear,

I am 52 Years Old, but about 30 years ago, my flat, straight fastball was clocked at 97 MPH at a Cincinnati Reds tryout camp. I had plenty of heart, just no movement and no curve & no pesky arm angles...

Heart won't get it!

2006-02-26 18:08:20
227.   thinkingblue
>

With hindsight, it is easy for you to say he is a bust. But c'mon, you weren't really thinking he was gonna hit less than .300/30HR/100 RBIs were you? If so, I really don't understand your point of view.

>

Choi has been great at drawing walks? LOL. Are you talking about his 34 walks to 80 strike outs? Potential Potential Potential. His swing is AWFUL. He looks clumsy out there on the field. Yea his fielding pct. may be good. But that's because he doesn't get close enough to the balls for it to be considered an error. You don't really think that he is better defensively than Derek Lee or Todd Helton do you? And platoons blow. Hee-Seop Saenz fizzeled down the stretch last year. And if one falls, then what do you do?
And if Choi is an everyday player, that would be awful. He can't hit a curveball, or a lefty.

Depo's negatives outweighed his positives. Ned hasn't really had a major negative yet. I mean, you know that at one point, Depo said he wished he had 9 Milton Bradly's?

2006-02-26 18:11:29
228.   oldbear
So...Steve was was your favorite Andy Griffith episode?
2006-02-26 18:12:53
229.   oldbear
Thinkinblu how old are you?
2006-02-26 18:13:41
230.   Jon Weisman
221 - "Fast and furious" posting will begin around March 6. I am doing a small restup until then with light posting. Thanks for hanging with me.
2006-02-26 18:13:58
231.   mountainmover
deburns,

My wife died 11 years ago at age 37 of a brain tumor and I became a single parent. It seemed overwhelming at the time, but life wnet on for me and it will go on for you... and I am sure she would want it to. Sometimes, death is a blessing (I know nothing of your situation). You cannot, however look ahead, you must embrace each moment and the greatest honor you can show a person who has passed is to have a happy life again. You never forget - You always remember. Honor every minute you have together.

2006-02-26 18:18:44
232.   Steve
So, we spent 200 posts trying to avoid a Choi debate, and then we got a Choi debate?

Forward, backward, inward, outward, Come and join the chase! Nothing could be drier than a jolly caucus-race.

2006-02-26 18:19:48
233.   mountainmover
Hey,

I like Choi. I really do.

2006-02-26 18:25:53
234.   Steve
Backward, forward, outward, inward

Bottom to the top

Never a beginning,

There can never be a stop

2006-02-26 18:32:37
235.   D4P
From the bottom to the top
From the top to the bottom
Mmmmmmmmm...I got'em!
2006-02-26 18:39:38
236.   Andrew Shimmin
Is it just me, or does anti-Choi-ism seem to correlate perfectly to double (and triple) posting? I wonder if that means something.
2006-02-26 18:40:01
237.   overkill94
I hope the new guys are happy, you've driven Steve to rhyming!
2006-02-26 18:40:30
238.   Bob Timmermann
Meanwhile, my cat is still behind the stove. I will wait him out.

The name Casey is going to stick. He can be either The Mighty Casey or Casey Stengel. Depends upon my mood.

The last cat had a TV-themed name (Emily), so I wanted a baseball themed one.

Tonight's question: What was the name of Jim Rockford's cat?

2006-02-26 18:46:24
239.   thinkingblue
229.

I was responding to thinkblue0, sorry for not putting his post number.

Also, on your "Choi batting second" what about his hitting with runners in scoring position? To be sure, he hit .203 total with RISP this year. Meanwhile, Nomar Garciaparra has never had under 96 RBIs in a healthy season. And Cruz had 22 RBIs down the strecth with us. And I am sure that those 44 games are all against righties rigth? If he played a full season, with lefites, he would be largely unproductive.

2006-02-26 18:48:19
240.   dzzrtRatt
Steve was beginning to get very tired of sitting by his sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice he had peeped into the laptop his sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, `and what is the use of a blog,' thought Steve`without pictures or conversation?'
2006-02-26 18:49:16
241.   dzzrtRatt
238 Maybe you should name it Dinah.
2006-02-26 18:50:32
242.   mountainmover
Rockford's cat:

Valentino

2006-02-26 18:51:52
243.   Steve
They say we're young and we don't know
We won't find out until we grow
Well I don't know if all that's true
'Cause you got me, and baby I got you
2006-02-26 18:52:29
244.   das411
238 - But Bob, you never answered my Q in 202 about what % of voters Seaver had.

Doesn't he still hold the (pre-Ripken) record?

2006-02-26 18:53:25
245.   Steve
Bob Newhart's wife?
2006-02-26 18:58:08
246.   Bob Timmermann
245
That is correct.

244

Seaver got 98.84% of the vote. Ryan got 98.79%. Aaron got 97.83%. Mays got 94.68%

With Aaron and Mays, I really would like to know the explanations of the guys who left them off the ballot.

2006-02-26 18:58:55
247.   willhite
221 -

Since I always enjoy your DT postings John, I look forward to being a regular reader of your blog. Already took a look and I'm looking forward to following your journey. Hope it ends well for you.

2006-02-26 18:59:31
248.   Bob Timmermann
242
Valentino is correct. I think he only shows up once, in the episode that introduces Freddy Beamer. He's alluded to at other times.

241
Dinah would be a bad name for a male cat.

2006-02-26 19:00:10
249.   Daniel Zappala
My uninformed guess would be because they were black.
2006-02-26 19:04:26
250.   Bob Timmermann
Actually I think the rationale used to not make Aaron's or Mays's choices unanimous was the old saw "Well, Joe DiMaggio didn't make it on his first try." Which is utterly meaningless and DiMaggio didn't make it on his first try because there was a backlog of players to be inducted.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-02-26 19:05:29
251.   dzzrtRatt
247 Thanks. On the blog, I'm still feeling my way around. Since I'm politically disgusted by both parties, I don't get to take the bold partisan stands of a Daily Kos or Hugh Hewitt. Then I get interested in science, then I go off chasing after alternative energy for awhile. I even posted about Kevin Brown recently.

As for the other part of my journey... thank you. I can't say much now other than I'm confident it will turn out okay in the end.

2006-02-26 19:06:43
252.   Steve
The BBWAA does the voting. What more explanation is needed?
2006-02-26 19:10:55
253.   Suffering Bruin
232

I, Suffering Bruin, taking my last break before finishing up lesson plans, do hereby declare the following:

I will not mention, discuss, write about or talk about Hee-Seop Choi until opening day. I will refer to him by another name, perhaps one that's a pain in the rear to type. Who's with me?

I do this for the site. I do this for the sanity of the posters. I do this selflessly and with pride. It's a sacrifice, sure, but as one who adopted the strapping lad as his favorite player of 2005, I'm just the fan to do it! I will treat Choi's name the same way actors do the scottish play.

One last time before opening day: Hee-Seop Choi! Hee-Seop Choi!! Hee-Seop Choi!!!

(steps down from podium...cue the choir: "Climb every Mountain... Ford every Streeeeaaaammmm!!!)

2006-02-26 19:17:06
254.   Steve
251 -- That's the biggest anonymous reveal than when we found out that Bokonon42 was one of the original Temptations.

But seriously, wow. Beyond the Choi nonsense (and really, what does nonsense invite but nonsense?), this has been an interesting and sobering weekend at DT.

2006-02-26 19:18:08
255.   Bob Timmermann
I'll be mentioning Choi on the Griddle in conjunction with the WBC. I think the Korean team will keep him in the lineup for all three opening games.

The Asian Group (Pool A) is hard to handicap because it's likely going to be Japan going 3-0 with Korea and Taiwan facing off for the second spot. China will go 0-3.

The Dodgers will be in a pickle? Whom do they want back in camp: Choi or Kuo?

2006-02-26 19:22:59
256.   D4P
this has been an interesting and sobering weekend at DT.

And not just because Nate's out of alcohol...

2006-02-26 19:25:20
257.   Steve
In some sense, Nate was one of the lucky ones
2006-02-26 19:25:29
258.   Vishal
[226] sure, i guess i'm "asian", speaking broadly. my parents are from india. i was born in LA.
2006-02-26 19:25:49
259.   Sam DC
deburns -- I really don't have anything to add but you and your wife will be in my and my family's thoughts. I'm just so sorry.

When my father passed last year, I was glad to be able to come to this community and get away from it all, but also to talk about it a little bit. It helped here both ways. I hope we can do some of the same for you.

mountainmover -- your handle seems apt. sorry too to hear of your loss.

2006-02-26 19:29:12
260.   overkill94
I'm totally guessing, but maybe for Mays and Aaron's ballots, certain sportswriters knew that they were locks to get in, so they used their votes for guys they felt were underappreciated.
2006-02-26 19:31:43
261.   mountainmover
Sam DC,

That's not where I got the handle "mountainmover". If you are interested, he's the short version of how I got it:

http://www.themountainmover.com/

2006-02-26 19:38:33
262.   Bob Timmermann
I just dug up a Dave Anderson column about how Aaron was nine votes short of being a unanimous choice. They wouldn't reveal who the people were who didn't vote for Aaron, but one person cast a ballot that had just one name marked: Luis Aparicio.

Another one just had Juan Marichal marked.

Seaver was left off of five ballots, three of them were blank ones returned in protest of Pete Rose being left off the ballot.

I don't know if there are still HOF voters like that around.

2006-02-26 19:39:20
263.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
A Hee Sop Choi / Paul Depodesta FAQ, not necessarily on this site, but somewhere, would be a great thing to help not regurgitate the same debates every time a new person comes into this community. Then, the appropriate response to such comments would be to point out the FAQ, rather than get into the argument and burn 150 posts where 15 people try to convince one person of their point of view.

(I mentioned the Troll definition because a newcomer may have accidentally fallen into troll-like behavior -- inciting a debate that can be inflamatory and has been already debated to death.)

So a suggestion to this community is to find a way to resist re-engaging in that debate, and instead, point people to a FAQ. It just isn't good reading during the off-season when HSC cannot prove or disprove anyone's hypotheses.

2006-02-26 19:44:37
264.   mountainmover
Like there is now new take on the subject?

Sort of like 1899 when the chief of the US Patent Office suggested closing it down, because "everything that can be invented has been invented?"

I see the logic...

2006-02-26 19:45:17
265.   natepurcell
lets talk about something more fun then HSC and paul depodesta.

lets talk about:
-our awesome prospects
-why there is a bruce willis marathon on television today
-why i have to write a paper on Ovid's "metamorphoses

i think those topics are much more interesting and less regurgitated then HSC/depo/moneyball/computer baseball.

2006-02-26 19:50:47
266.   natepurcell
Like there is now new take on the subject?

okay one less response. there isnt a new take on the subject. everything that has been talked about today has been debated and answered before. I read your blog and i respect your opinions but i dont agree with them and there has been countless rebuttals to the opinion in your blog about depo's demise and choi.

okay moving on, whats everyones favorite greek mythology story!?!? my favorite is the story of priapus. i LOL everytime.

2006-02-26 19:52:46
267.   Bob Timmermann
264

Sign from God:

On a rerun of "What's My Line?" I'm watching, Casey Stengel is the mystery guest.

The name Casey stands for the cat.

2006-02-26 19:55:29
268.   Andrew Shimmin
261- What does the 'sm' mean? Just after the epigraph? (do websites have epigraphs?)
2006-02-26 20:01:10
269.   mountainmover
1. I couldn't get beyond "The Hero With a Thosand Faces."

2. I respect the right to disagree.

3. When do you think DePo will start his next GM gig? (Like 'never')

4. History will be the judge of HS Choi.

2006-02-26 20:03:45
270.   mountainmover
Andrew,

It is just signifying it's my "service mark" - kind of like a trademark.

2006-02-26 20:22:03
271.   D4P
Is it safe to assert now that the answer to the question Jon posed in the title of this thread was clearly "Too Quiet"?
2006-02-26 20:26:45
272.   Steve
After this, how could anything, ever again, be too quiet?
2006-02-26 20:30:31
273.   Jon Weisman
I guess I was onto something.
2006-02-26 20:34:02
274.   LAT
That's the biggest anonymous reveal than when we found out that Bokonon42 was one of the original Temptations.

This is a joke, right? Bokonon42 was one of the Temptations? I know I'm missing something here. Damn, on the outside looking in again!

2006-02-26 20:38:14
275.   De Ruijter
262-

Jeff Blair of The Globe and Mail in Toronto only votes for one player a year for the HOF, recently had a blog post where he suggested that writers should only be able to vote for one guy a year, and also wrote "don't ask me to describe what makes a Hall of Famer. I just know one when I see it."

He should have fun next year, when Gwynn, Ripkin, and McGuire all become eligible.

2006-02-26 20:38:32
276.   Steve
274 -- The reality-based community hasn't made out very well in this thread.
2006-02-26 20:39:01
277.   D4P
Newsflash: Singer-songwriter George Michael arrested on drug charges. He acknowledged that the drugs were his, confessing "I was going to smoke the marijuana, like a cigarette."
2006-02-26 20:43:37
278.   oldbear
Is there any prestige that comes with being named opening day spring training pitcher?
2006-02-26 20:46:26
279.   Bob Timmermann
My cat Casey is very quiet. He hasn't made a peep yet.
2006-02-26 20:53:41
280.   D4P
279
Quiet or too quiet?
2006-02-26 20:54:34
281.   Andrew Shimmin
274- I was the Brian Jones of the Temptations. They sold out and went pop when I wanted to hold true to our founding ethos: addo funkum. Also, I don't think Barry Gordy liked me very much.
2006-02-26 21:04:48
282.   Bob Timmermann
280

I believe this type of cat isn't supposed to be very vocal.

I think Casey, like most cats, will decide to become vocal and active and come out of hiding around 3 am.

2006-02-26 21:11:00
283.   D4P
282
Our two cats typically decide to become vocal and active between 5 and 6 am. Will Casey be an indoor/outdoor cat, or indoor only?
2006-02-26 21:12:54
284.   Bob Timmermann
Casey is going to be an indoor cat. I live in an apartment.
2006-02-26 21:15:34
285.   D4P
The problem with indoor cats is that you can't put them outside (and thus solve the problem) when they decide to become vocal and active at 3am.
2006-02-26 21:16:21
286.   Andrew Shimmin
281, updated: I didn't actually get the joke, either. Partial list of things, from this thread, that I don't get:

1. How Marty knows when people die before anybody else (what's up with that? Does he have the obit page on an RSS feed?)
2. What Bob thought he was pulling, naming his cat without putting it up for a vote here (the nerve on that guy!)
3. What MYP means
4. What the whole italics thing (post 43, 45, 64) was about
5. How my knowing a mountain can move might have any affect on whether it does
6. If there are really people who think Choi is magically better in the two hole
7. What Bob has against the semicolon
8. If there are really people who think Choi is magically worse with two outs, or RISP, or whatever else

I have my suspicians. Actually, I have my suspicians that TB (an abreviation I find funny) is actually Steve having a little fun. It might indicate psychotic episode, on his part, which would be bad. But the whole thing makes a lot more sense, and is actually more funny, if I'm right. Asking yourself to explain your own joke? The multiple posting? Yes, my tin foil hat is in place; why do you ask?

2006-02-26 21:28:32
287.   das411
um....so is anybody else catching some spring training games this year? I'm going to Tampa for spring break next week...Nate, what will you be up to?
2006-02-26 21:33:32
288.   Bob Timmermann
I've never been to a spring training game in my life. I could go to Arizona I suppose, but it just doesn't seem that interesting to me.

As for putting up with a cat that makes noise at night, my old cat did and I just put her in the kitchen (where the food is) if she bugged me. I sense that Casey isn't going to be an overly sociable cat even after he comes out of hiding.

2006-02-26 21:34:13
289.   Daniel Zappala
Checking the latest LA Times Dodger info...

"In addition to starters Chad Billingsley and D.J. Houlton, top prospects Jonathan Broxton, Greg Miller, Eric Stolts, Justin Orenduff and Jose Diaz will pitch.

Among veterans, infielders Nomar Garciaparra, Bill Mueller, Olmedo Saenz, Oscar Robles and Ramon Martinez, and outfielders Jose Cruz Jr., Ricky Ledee and Jason Repko will play."

Words to warm a DT soul during the long winter months: Jason Repko will play.

2006-02-26 21:35:34
290.   Brendan
202

Tom Seaver. that is right. I think of him as a Red.
Thinkingblue
Choi is average. his pay is below average. he is young and his minor league numbers suggest he might be an above average player, while still being cheap. Everyone would just like to see him get a chance to play a full season without a genius like Tracy playing Phillips instead or Kerry Wood bashing HSC's face in. Is that really so hard to understand? Did I mention he was cheap for an average 1b baseman?

Plus to your strikeout argument:
Reggie Jackson 2,597 Strikeouts to 2,584 Hits
Jim Thome 1,762 strikeouts to 1,665 Hits
A ton more players with about half and half strikeouts to hits
ex. Reggie Sanders 1,563 Hits to 1,513 Strikeouts, Mark McGwire 1,626 Hits to 1,596 Strikeouts.

These were just a few examples that I randomly thought of and looked up. Would you mind not using the "HSC has more strikeouts than hits" argument in the future? I think it would be helpful but the choice is yours. welcome.

2006-02-26 21:41:12
291.   Brendan
287

I'm headed to Tempe to catch the Angels(all my friends are die hard Angel fans, I think that is why I like DT so much) I've been to Tempe the last seven years.
I'm going to the March 17th Angels/Cubs games and then catch whatever games are going on in Phx or scottsdale the next few days.

I'd really like to get to Vero one day.

2006-02-26 21:48:14
292.   blue2thebone
Watching from the dugout, this has been an interesting thread.

Deburns -My sincere regards.

Mountainmover - I remember you from the old LA times message board. Its good to read you again. Your Depo post at ladodgertalk makes good sense.

Re: Depo... I felt the Lo Duca/Mota/Encarnacion for Penny/Choi trade was vital for the Dodgers to advance in the playoffs, but I don't think that trade won the division for us. Of course, Penny turned out to be a non-factor when he injured his arm, and we were temporarily weak at catcher for a while, but I support the trade, even though I liked Lo Duca & Mota. I think Depo's worst move was the parting of Dave Roberts. Though I expected him to resign Beltre, and he seemed apathetic, it didn't bother me too much to lose him for what Seattle paid for him, as I thought it doubtful that he could produce anywhere near his '04 numbers, but he did deserve a ton of respect for that career year. And finally, I felt that Depo got a raw deal the way he was canned by McCourt.

Re: Coletti...I am impressed with the way he has restored respectability to our storied franchise after the mess McCourt made of it. Some of his moves may not pan out, but some are likely to, and best of all is that he hasn't had to deal many of our treasured prospects!

2006-02-26 21:48:16
293.   blue2thebone
Watching from the dugout, this has been an interesting thread.

Deburns -My sincere regards.

Mountainmover - I remember you from the old LA times message board. Its good to read you again. Your Depo post at ladodgertalk makes good sense.

Re: Depo... I felt the Lo Duca/Mota/Encarnacion for Penny/Choi trade was vital for the Dodgers to advance in the playoffs, but I don't think that trade won the division for us. Of course, Penny turned out to be a non-factor when he injured his arm, and we were temporarily weak at catcher for a while, but I support the trade, even though I liked Lo Duca & Mota. I think Depo's worst move was the parting of Dave Roberts. Though I expected him to resign Beltre, and he seemed apathetic, it didn't bother me too much to lose him for what Seattle paid for him, as I thought it doubtful that he could produce anywhere near his '04 numbers, but he did deserve a ton of respect for that career year. And finally, I felt that Depo got a raw deal the way he was canned by McCourt.

Re: Coletti...I am impressed with the way he has restored respectability to our storied franchise after the mess McCourt made of it. Some of his moves may not pan out, but some are likely to, and best of all is that he hasn't had to deal many of our treasured prospects!

2006-02-26 21:58:26
294.   LAT
287. das411, Daughter and I are going to:

D'backs v. Brewers 3/24 in Tucson;
D'backs v. LAA 3/25 in Tucson; and
D'backs v. Cubs 3/26 in Mesa (that is if we can get tickets. Game is already sold out.)

Never been to spring training so I'm looking forward to it.

Going to be in Vegas on April 10 and 11th. Hopefully we will be able to catch a 51s game. They are playing Salt Lake. The only minor league games I've been to are the Pawsox. (Pawtucket, RI)

Hey here's a thought. Does anyone think HAC will be playing for the 51s then? Just kidding. Please don't answer that.

2006-02-26 22:01:34
295.   LAT
HAC = HSC

Duh. I guess getting his name wrong kills what little humor was there in the first place.

2006-02-26 22:14:42
296.   Andrew Shimmin
Grizzly Man is on the Discovery channel. Has there ever been a time or place where being crazy wasn't dangerous?
2006-02-26 22:21:36
297.   thinkingblue
290.
<<Choi is average. his pay is below average. he is young and his minor league numbers suggest he might be an above average player, while still being cheap. Everyone would just like to see him get a chance to play a full season without a genius like Tracy playing Phillips instead or Kerry Wood bashing HSC's face in. Is that really so hard to understand? Did I mention he was cheap for an average 1b baseman?

Plus to your strikeout argument:
Reggie Jackson 2,597 Strikeouts to 2,584 Hits
Jim Thome 1,762 strikeouts to 1,665 Hits
A ton more players with about half and half strikeouts to hits
ex. Reggie Sanders 1,563 Hits to 1,513 Strikeouts, Mark McGwire 1,626 Hits to 1,596 Strikeouts.

These were just a few examples that I randomly thought of and looked up. Would you mind not using the "HSC has more strikeouts than hits" argument in the future? I think it would be helpful but the choice is yours. welcome.<<

I just hate how you kept using the word "average and cheap" with Choi, and the dodgers. Does anyone want to see an "average, cheap" first baseman with the dodgers? No, that is where your productive hitters should be.

His minor leauge numbers are misleading. In the minor leauges, a hitter can get away Hwith many more things than a major leauger. He does not have a major leauge swing. It is basically a sweeping motion, that can only hit low pitches.

So yes, it is really hard to see why anyone would want to see Choi, instead of have this line up with people who know how to win, and have been in the playoffs before. We are not in a position to take a chance on Choi this year. In fact, I think we just should have let him go so the D-Rays or Royals could have picked him up.

As for the strike out people you mentioned, those guys at least got you a ton of home runs and RBIs. Choi does not.

2006-02-26 22:52:02
298.   Andrew Shimmin
So yes, it is really hard to see why anyone would want to see Choi

It is for you; you've made that clear. People who see something in Choi, who'd like to see him in the lineup (in place, as it happens, of Cruz/Werth/Repko, which, you show me the proven winner there), look at the game in a fundamentally different way from the one you do. They don't think RBIs prove much of anything. They tend to dismiss, outright, any RISP statistics. They value different things from the ones you do.

There's no magic bullet, though. There's no one thing that, if you'd read it, you'd understand exactly what makes a Choi fan tick. Actually, if you're going to take the knee-jerk, "Price is no object," position, then there probably aren't any million things you could read that would help you understand. Price is always an object.

I'm curious why it should be that his, "sweeping motion," swing makes hitting any but low pitches impossible. Also: how did you come by this theory?

2006-02-26 23:06:54
299.   Brendan
297

I can see why you say you hate the use of average and cheap when talking about the dodgers, I truly do but what about this combo; average and expensive? Because there are a lot of baseball players who are exactly that. You can't have an all star at every position who gets paid like an all star. If you have an avg 1st baseman who is cheap you can spend money at other positions rather than tying up your money in just one position. that is the theory. It would be great to have a HOF baseman but they don't grow on trees. I would love the dodgers to have the best players at every position but it doesn't always work out that way.

I'm not sure of your qualifications to judge who has a major league swing or not. All I know is that it's not easy becoming a major league player and then don't let you become one without a major league swing9excluding pitcher)

I think we agree more than we disagree.

2006-02-26 23:11:53
300.   Sospiro0
It's 1am. Do you know where your refrigerator is?

I think Billingsley and his misleading minor league stats should get the boot. And not just any boot, but one of those steel toed construction boots,

First post, I think, since December, and Choi still brings the PC to a boil, or any other mixed metaphor you can think up.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-02-26 23:21:21
301.   natepurcell
His minor leauge numbers are misleading. In the minor leauges, a hitter can get away Hwith many more things than a major leauger

that is so laughable. if you are going to dismiss his minor league numbers then you should dismiss all the minor league numbers of every player that played in the same league as choi. They play the same teams and even face the same pitchers.

okay i cant do this and i said i wouldnt do this so im changing the subject.

to answer das411, ill probably attend some ST games in tucson. the white sox, dbacks and rockies are stationed here. I want to catch a look at all the hot shot baby backs since i am really scared of them interfering with the future dodger dynasty.

2006-02-26 23:29:43
302.   Steve
I have my suspicians that TB (an abreviation I find funny) is actually Steve having a little fun.

You think this is fun?

2006-02-26 23:34:11
303.   blue2thebone
With 6 players among BA's top 32, the D-Backs figure to be tough indeed. I found it interesting that BA ranked LaRoche above Guzman, and there are 4 other 3B's ranked ahead of LaRoche!
2006-02-26 23:34:37
304.   das411
OH! Hey Nate, want me to swing over to Tampa and check out everybody's two favorite SP prospects? Haha, maybe I could even tell the guys how much this board misses them already.

For everyone that answered (and I'm sorry if I stole a future discussion topic Jon), I'd like to say that Spring Training games are what make baseball great, there is nothing quite like hanging out in the sun, trying to ID all of the obscure minor leaguers (and/or getting autographs from them!), and knowing that every team is 0-0 at this point and they all have the same chance of winning that last game of the season.

Plus you never know who you might accidentally meet, and who they could turn out to be. I went to a SaraSox game (Sarasota Red Sox) sometime in 1994 or 95 and got a sig from a svelte young outfielder named Trot Nixon, and it really was amazing to watch him "cowboying up" ten years later as a key player on a world champion team.

And there was also the time I met Paul Fletcher in Phils camp in 1994 and then he was on one of those "who are these guys?!?" posts up on The Juice a couple weeks ago. Can't beat that for coolness, eh?

2006-02-26 23:40:43
305.   natepurcell
OH! Hey Nate, want me to swing over to Tampa and check out everybody's two favorite SP prospects? Haha, maybe I could even tell the guys how much this board misses them already.

i dont miss tiffany that much but you can tell edwin i miss him.

2006-02-26 23:42:40
306.   Andrew Shimmin
302- Read 94, 100, 105, 106 again, in order, and tell me that wouldn't have been fun, if you were playing both parts.
2006-02-26 23:45:23
307.   Steve
All of this does have a Phil Hendrie feel to it, now that you mention it.
2006-02-26 23:45:23
308.   natepurcell
so the intra-squad scrimmage on tuesday in jacksonville... is that going to be on tv?

if not, is it going to be on the webcam feed that we used to watch all the jax home games last season?

2006-02-26 23:50:20
309.   natepurcell
i really hope its going to be on the webcam.

i also really hope i didnt have a business presentation on tuesday as well. blast! i will only be able to watch the first hour

2006-02-26 23:50:30
310.   Andrew Shimmin
307- I'll take that as a confession.
2006-02-26 23:54:53
311.   ImChuck
Yeah, minor leaguers get away with too many things. I say we no longer take any minor league statistics into consideration in the future. Forget the fact that minor league numbers have a tendency to correlate with major league numbers. :)
2006-02-26 23:57:12
312.   natepurcell
from jaxsuns.com

The Suns squad will look very similar to last year's Southern league Championship and Minor League Team of the Year squad with catcher Russell Martin, third baseman Joel Guzman, shortstop Andy LaRoche and left fielder John Weber among the Suns starters for Tuesday.

ummm, i think they mixed up laroche's and guzman's positions.

2006-02-27 00:02:34
313.   das411
all part of the plan nate...
2006-02-27 00:18:18
314.   Steve
310 -- I do hope you were at least mildly amused if your theory turns out not to be true.
2006-02-27 01:12:39
315.   oldbear
297. Here are a few reasons why you wont convince any of us of your position:

#1. Most of DT doesnt care about batting average. They think OBP (the amount of times a player gets on base), and SLG (the amount of power a player produces) are more important than batting average. And shouldnt it be? Batting average doesnt tell you much about a hitter. OBP/SLG give a fuller, more complete picture.

#2. Saying things like "Choi has a long swing"...or "I watch alot of baseball"... Doesnt fly here. THose are subjective judgements. No one cares about your amateur scouting eye. Sheesh, most here dont care about professional scouting eyes (at least I dont.. Nate probably does). Choi may have a 'long' swing in your eye, but if he OPS's +800 (which he did last year as a starter) who really cares? THe last I checked they dont let you reach base for having a pretty swing. You have to either get a hit/walk to do that.

#3. Generalizations (ex. 1st basemen should do this..A #2 hitter should be that)... dont fly here either. Jeff Kent isnt exactlly a tradiditional 2nd basemen but no one complains about him.

#4. The Dodgers do have budget constraints. THey cant sign just anyone for any amount. Much of Choi's value lies in his salary.

#5. Choi hitting 25HR's getting 450 AB's, with Saenz chipping in 10HR's in his 200AB's (when he hits against lefties at 1st), is seen as more likely to happen than Nomar hitting 35HR's getting all 650 AB's at 1st.

6. THinkinblu you might be younger than most of us that post (I think Hobos is the only HS'er here). Its understandable that you've put emphasis on BA, RBI's, and "grit", bc thats what the mainstream baseball culture has been about. But I actually started to change my thinking after the 2003 Dodger season, in which none of our guys could get on base or score runs. It was then that I realized how much more important OBP, SLG were than BA. And how much little value SB's actually had. And how "looks" dont really matter if you cant get on base or hit for power.

Cant LA unite in hating Mitch Kupchak? I'm sure there's some common ground SABRE and Non-Sabre fans can unite on.

2006-02-27 02:03:54
316.   regfairfield
Desperate for word count, I give you my attempt at the Choi FAQ:

http://dodgermath.com/?p=277

If you have something to contribute, please do.

2006-02-27 02:31:06
317.   thinkblue0
315-

speaking of mitch kupchak, wh does it seem that there are only about 2 GM's in baseketball who really know what they're doing?

I mean, these guys make moves that have forced me to make an audible gasp when I read about them online. It seems they pay guys insane amount of money when they can get someone off the scrap heap to dhte same thing...it's really unbelievable.

Also, does anyone else have this really nervous feeling about the start of season that I have? Our lineup looks great on paper, but there are so many question marks (mostly health related) that I can't help but be very cautiously optimistic about it. Who knows, maybe it's because it's 2:30 AM and I just got back from the ShortStop but I'm starting to feel really weird about this team...which I wasn't before. My friend described it the best when he said: "this team is like a card castle. If it holds, we've got a heck of a team, but we're teetering on the edge with some of these guys."

Man, I really need to go to bed....

2006-02-27 06:31:21
318.   dzzrtRatt
315 Maybe instead of an FAQ, we need the equivalent of this, which is what the first 5 items on your post reminded of:

http://tinyurl.com/jd8ea

317 Everyone else has "this really nervous feeling" about the start of the season. Many of us used to need ativan, transcendental meditation, and great spoonfuls of tequila-soaked worms to make it to Opening Day. Until we started coming to DT, which don't forget is "Jon Weisman's outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball." You're in therapy now.

2006-02-27 06:35:20
319.   dzzrtRatt
Not a happy day for Jim Tracy and Jim Colborn....

BRADENTON, Fla. (AP) -- Pittsburgh Pirates pitcher Kip Wells has a blood clot close to his right arm, and his season is in jeopardy.

General manager Dave Littlefield described the clot as a "100 percent blockage" of an artery under the clavicle, the primary vessel that carries blood from the chest to the arms.

The 28-year-old Wells told the team he still must determine whether he wants to get a second opinion before having surgery, a decision he is expected to make within two days. If Wells has surgery, he would likely miss five to eight months.

2006-02-27 06:53:17
320.   Sam DC
315 Oldbear -- I know you are trying to engage in a respectful way, but your post too has a number of generalizations. I don't mean to speak for Jon, but generalizations about what flies and does not fly at DT and what people here believe are uncomfortable territory. Better, in my opinion, just to say what flies and does not fly for you.
2006-02-27 07:13:12
321.   MartinBillingsley31
Dodger Math has a nice writing about choi, he wrote it after visiting here with the latest choi debate.

http://www.dodgermath.com/

2006-02-27 07:49:05
322.   deburns
Thanks so much to 222, 231 and 259and all the others who have expressed their sympathy to what I am going through. I am really overwhelmed at the warmth and empathy, not to say even love, coming from the DT family to someone who only a few of the family have met me.
I also think that we should not wait to judge Colletti's moves until they work out in practice. That is akin to a bridge player saying that taking the finesse through the LHO was wrong because it did not work. The Garciaparra acquisition for 1B is either a good move or not. It may work out, or not. Mueller may be a good idea or not. We will know what happens after some or all of the season, but neither Colletti nor we know what actually will happen.
Anyway, thanks again.
2006-02-27 08:19:30
323.   Marty
I tend to find out about obits first because I have the wire services at my fingertips at all times.

For LAT, last night's dinner was short ribs with chocolate and rosemary. It came out terrific.

Ratt, that's quite a revelation. Good luck with the case. I liked the Elliot Mintz post you did. I was just thinking about him a couple weeks ago. I remember when he ws on local radio and had the late night talk show on TV. One show with Doc Watson stands out. That got me onto his music.

2006-02-27 08:42:26
324.   Vishal
[315], [320] -

while the points oldbear raised succinctly and accurately reflect my personal opinion, and i'm sure the sentiments of many people who post here, i guess it should be clear that even if someone has a divergent view, they're welcome here. i think what oldbear means by something "not flying" here, is that if you have a position that is not very well supported by fact, the intelligent folks who congregate here are likely to criticize or deconstruct it. that doesn't mean you're not welcome to say what you want though.

2006-02-27 08:54:28
325.   deburns
319 I guess Kip Wells at $6 in a NL keeper league is not such a good freeze after all.
2006-02-27 13:50:15
326.   oldbear
324. Thats what I meant. Anyone can post here. But if you want to argue, you best bring something to back up your argument. If you dont, most will just ignore it.
2006-02-27 15:14:02
327.   thinkingblue
98.
<<in place, as it happens, of Cruz/Werth/Repko, which, you show me the proven winner there<<

Cruz has been to the world series.

<<They don't think RBIs prove much of anything. They tend to dismiss, outright, any RISP statistics. They value different things from the ones you do<<

So... Is Jeff Kent worthless? He led the leauge hitting with RISP, and had 105 RBIs. And would Manny be worthless as well? Oritz?

2006-02-27 15:17:14
328.   thinkingblue
299.

<<I can see why you say you hate the use of average and cheap when talking about the dodgers, I truly do but what about this combo; average and expensive?<<

Well, we are only paying Nomar 6 mill with incentive.

<<I'm not sure of your qualifications to judge who has a major league swing or not. All I know is that it's not easy becoming a major league player and then don't let you become one without a major league swing9excluding pitcher<<

I have a pair of two eyes. I see Choi, and he tries to load up, and then swing upward.

2006-02-27 15:19:38
329.   thinkingblue
300.

Billingsley has poise, the prototypical pitcher body type, and off the charts stuff. Choi is passive, sometimes clumsy @ 1B, and has an awful swing.

2006-02-27 15:21:57
330.   thinkingblue
<<that is so laughable. if you are going to dismiss his minor league numbers then you should dismiss all the minor league numbers of every player that played in the same league as choi. They play the same teams and even face the same pitchers<<.

No, this is true. All scouts say this. In the minors, you ahve have a hitch in your swing, because pitchers fastballs are not as crisp, and curveballs are not as sharp. So players can feast on the easy pitchers, and get away with bad habits.

2006-02-27 15:26:40
331.   thinkingblue
315.

Old bear, you know what, I agree. In fact, I have the most irrfutable argument on why Choi/Saenz should start, and wrote down my thoughts here.

www11.brinkster.com/xtraxisx/t3.html

2006-02-27 15:37:49
332.   Steve
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2006-02-27 16:44:01
333.   Andrew Shimmin
327- No, you're not paying attention. I'm not saying hitters who have lots of RBIs are bad. I'm saying you cannot tell whether a hitter is good or bad from only that stat. Same for BARISP. It's like, lots of good players are taller than average, but not all taller than average players are good. A player's height tells me hardly anything about his skill. N'es pas?

Cruz's post season line (he didn't actually appear in the WS, just the NLDS, just like HSC; so, there's that): 11 AB .000/.154/.000. Now, because I know that 11 ABs can't mean anything, I'm not going to use this to further my point that Cruz isn't great. I'm just noting it, so that we can drop the charade about his winner bona fides. Deal?

2006-02-27 17:20:06
334.   dzzrtRatt
323 Marty, thanks.

The Elliot Mintz post has brought more people to my site than anything else I've written since Kevin Roderick outed me. I would not have expected that.

2006-02-27 17:34:10
335.   thinkingblue
Well, Cruz certainly produced more with the time he had with us, than Choi did. .301 with 22 RBIs down the strecth was solid. And in this line up, he would be a 6-7.
2006-02-27 17:51:37
336.   Andrew Shimmin
335- Because the only time that matters is time spent in a blue jersey. All other time is moot. Gotcha.
2006-02-27 21:01:29
337.   Gilgamesh
333- Like you, I think RBI's et.al. are a flawed stat. Your post got me thinking about the question in reverse. Rephrasing the statement, without the simile:
'lots of good players have above average RBI's, but not all players with above average RBI's are good.'
So I thought, it doesn't really sound as good that way; let't test it.

First, it's hard to figure what an 'average' RBI total is, since it is effected by ABs. There are almost 200 players with at least 400 ABs last season, so I took the top 200 in RBI's, and found their average, which is surprizingly 97. The guys at the very top really pull this average up. But the median is 68.

Now the comparison. Of the average or better players in RBIs...all were better than average in OPS (.747).
Of the players at median or better, 85% were better than average in OPS.
Interestingly, of the top 30 in RBI's, all were over .800 and all but three were over .850.
Finally, of the 30 RBI leaders, 20 were also in the top 30 in OPS.

So perhaps using RBI totals to gauge a hitter is using an inference to measure hitting ability, but RBIs do seem to largely parellel hitting ability, albiet more directly measured through OPS.

So I don't really see the above stated generalization holding up. More accuratly it can be summed up as:

'Players with above average RBIs are very probably also above average hitters, and players with elite RBI totals are probably also elite hitters, but in the end, OPS is a better measurement of hitting ability, because it is a direct measurement, whereas RBI totals measure hitting ability through inference'

But certainly next time someone makes a point about a batters ability, citing their RBI total, I won't dismiss it out of hand, because it probably does indicate he is a good hitter.

2006-02-28 13:42:45
338.   ImChuck
335.

I think you're simplifying things to see it your way. I can name a number of other players with bad swings like Choi that have produced big numbers. The bottom line isn't about beauty; it's about producing. Why do you not like Choi so much? We've seen his power, we've seen his ability to get on base, and we've seen how the money saved from his contract can be directed to other positions (i.e. Mueller, Nomar, Lofton, etc). We could easily be overpaying a mediocre 1B who can take up the contract space of those three players named above.

Choi isn't the enemy. He isn't the reason why we had a 71-91 record last season. He is simply a developing player, just like Russell Martin or Andy LaRoche. Why dump him now when he has the possiblity of producing 30 HRs in the near future, even if it is a low possibility. He's sure a better bet than some of the other players we had, like Jason Phillips at 1B.

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