nice to see Furcal heating up...if only Kent and Drew can get on the same page.

I'm on the edge of my seat with the deadline coming up....

Just an idea but if Perez is going to be of any use this year then it must be as a starter. Why doesn't Grady just give him 3 straight starts to either cut it or be cut. As it is now, Perez is totally useless and taking up a valuable spot in the club.

Also, I'm not sure if Ned and Grady are on the same page as to use of Perez. Last night, Grady put Perez in a position to fail and as expected it happened. Is Grady trying to send a message to Ned that either Perez is going to be useful or get someone else.

Furcal's offense will be fine as he is starting to show (and Jon points out). His OBP is up there and he has scored runs all year. His defense has been a disappointment and he isn't worth 13 million a year, but I don't seem to have the sometimes instense negative feeling towards him that others on DT do.

1

it seems like medusa has something brewing for us fans (good trade?) Let's hope it's not at the expense of our farm.

3

if he starts hitting I'm willing to turn a blind eye on his D.

2 - Believe it or not, but our rotation is full right now. Penny, Lowe, and Sele are pitching well (Lowe's slump notwithstanding). Hendrickson has pitched to expectations, and would seem rash to yank him out of the pen in favor of OP. And the club is apparently committed to Billingsley for the rest of the year.

I keep OP in long relief until he's DFA'd, or there's an injury or replacement needed in the rotation.

2

Odalis has already been a disaster as a starter this year, and we have others who are more productive. Who would you take out of the starting 5 to let Odalis go in there again. He is a long reliever and the only reason he was used last night was because the bullpen had already gone 8 innings and we were running out of arms. I don't think we can waste 3 more starts on Odalis as we are in a pennant race. Lets face it, Sele took his place and that has saved the season.

I'm afraid of Colletti getting fleeced by Krivski.

I'd take out Hendrickson and give OP like 3-4 starts.

4 - Bowden was on ESPN radio today, and said neither the Angels nor Dodgers are in the Soriano sweepstakes.

I don't think we can waste 3 more starts on Odalis as we are in a pennant race.

How many starts have been wasted on Seo, Tomko, and Hendrickson? Giving 3 starts to a guy that at least has a good history shouldnt be a stumbling block.

Let Hendrickson be a long man. Its not like the rotation is missing something with taking him out of it. He's always been brutal.

Any trade with Philie should include Sal Monella.

7

L.A. Native makes a good point 9 check it out.

16 days until we are safe from poor trades.
(almost)

MLB Extra Innings has a new visual design and theme song. I like the changes. This song is good haha.

I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to read Terrell Owens' new "tell-all" book. I'll put it right next to "Anna Karenina" on my night table's "must read" list.

11

I agree that if Hendrickson keeps throwing as bad as he has already then we could consider throwing Odalis back there as a last resort, but we also have Tomko vying for that spot, not that he himself hasn't been bad since his hot start. Also, I'm no fan of Hendrickson, but we haven't even given him three starts yet (he has started only twice for the Dodgers I believe). I used to be a big believer in Odalis and was for giving him a bunch of chances, but I think he just doesn't have it anymore and he has worn out even my patience.

Also, I'm no fan of Hendrickson, but we haven't even given him three starts yet (he has started only twice for the Dodgers I believe).

it's not like Hendrickson is a rookie...we already know he's not a good pitcher. I don't really need to see any more.

10
YES!

10-

too bad. We need a bat pretty badly.

Is Bowden going to trade Rauch? I would like Rauch.

I think for OP's sake and the team's sake, they should either give OP 3-4 straight starts, or release him so he can catch on with another team.

Keeping him in the mop-up role only hurts the team and OP.

17 I agree completely. And I'm probably in the minority here, but I still think Hendrickson has more upside - well, than OP at least. At least watching him pitch I see some good stuff there, while when OP pitches I cringe at this point. Maybe they do need to start OP a couple of times, to showcase him as trade bait, but I can't see how he's suddenly going to pitch real well in that event. Basically, I have 3% confidence in OP, and 40% confidence in Hendrickson. (Maybe Penny's a 90%. Is this a new stat?)

18

You want to see more of Odalis. The guy's ERA is almost 7 and the league is hitting 356 against him!!! I said he has been a disaster as a starter, but he has been just as bad as a reliever as well. At least Hendrickson and Tomko have had some success this year. I think there is more hope of one of them being at least serviceable as a 5th starter for the rest of the year.

I do agree our poor starting pitching is a real problem and why several weeks ago, I picked the Angels as having a better chance of winning their division than the Dodgers do despite all of their negative press.

20 - Think what Bowden would demand for Soriano, fresh off his fleecing of Cincy.

24 - Woo hoo Tomko's coming back. Nothing like trying to squeeze 4 fifth starters into two slots.

Could Billingsley be sent back down? It's not as if he was setting the PCL on fire when he was called up.

20

We need pitching pretty badly

25 He'd probably demand Austin Kearns, which is a price the Dodgers cannot pay.

24. I just think OP has too much of a good history, to warrant benching him for good while other guys who've never been good ever (Tomko/Hendrickson/Seo) got to keep their spots.

If I was OP, I'd be upset too.

we should have traded odalis for Weaver. At least I like Weaver. He isn't always a victim at least.

Anybody who wants to relive the nightmare of last night, Pujols is about to make Odalis feel like trash on FSW2

26

I think Billingsley could be sent back, but if he can settle down and pitch more like last night where he wasn't sharp, but at least didn't give anything up he can stay. I don't think Ned or Griddles wants to have both Tomko and Hendrickson/Perez in the starting 5. At least I am not excited about that. Overall, I think Billingsley should really still be in the minors for his development, but we are pretty desperate at this point like it or not.

Why should Billingsley be called down? Granted he hasn't set the world on fire, but he has been pitching a lot better lately. He has to quite throwing so many balls and challenge hitters more, but I think he is definitely our 4th starter. I can't believe I am talking about Sele as our third starter.

Well, I shouldnt say Seo was never good ever. He did have a decent year last year, but still wasnt the accomplished pitcher that OP was.

OP isnt treated with the Veteran respect that other Dodger veterans are, and I think thats why he's upset.

there showing yesterday's game on prime/fox I changed the channel (can't stomach it)

*quit

Speaking of reliving nightmares, I'm watchng the A's/Red Sox game (free Extra Innings this weekend!) and there was a promo for What If, a show on NESN where somebody runs some sort of simulation to decide what would have happened if Grittle had pulled Pedro in the 2003 ALCS.

I want Billingsley up here for the rest of the season, if only to develop him for the future.

If people want to also make the point that he's not a very good pitcher right now, I see that also. Billingley hasnt pitched that well in any of his games yet.

33 - Why should Billingsley be called down?

Not because I want him out of here, I'm just wondering if there would be a little less pressure to work on his mechanics and control in AAA.

LA could do a lot worse than handing him the ball every fifth day. I just wonder if its the best thing for him.

Steiner and Lyons are looking quite colorful in the booth tonight. I guess it's too hot for them to wear ties?

Odalis is upset. He is every year. The only reason he hasn't been cut is that Ned doesn't want to eat that big contract for this year and next year (maybe through a miracle he can regain his stuff next spring). No one wanted him in a trade, because he has that big contract for 07 as well, which Weaver didn't have. Also, he whines all the time and no one wants that in their clubhouse. He should be happy that he is getting millions for as bad as he is. He has no one to be mad at except himself for his lousy performance.

40
I do not care in anyway what they wear (unless it was the opposing teams stuff)? We do not even look at them during a game.

Remember when everyone went crazy because Dan Evans heaven forbid wore a pink shirt?

27-

We need pitching pretty badly

I know this. But there is no pitching out there. We also could use a bat since Grady loves having three slap hitters in the lineup at the same time.

I'd much rather Flanders give up a prospect for a hitter than another 5th starter.

40

humidity also no?

*(unless it...).

45

what's with the little star TW?

42 Neither do I, they just look kinda funny

I smell a megadeal...

To LAD: Tom Gordon, Mike Lieberthal, Brett Myers

To PHI: Odalis Perez, Willy Aybar, Toby Hall

Abreu for JD Drew could quite possibly be the funniest trade since...Soriano for AROD!!

No more Kemp for now.

I like Kemp being sent down to AAA.

Wow, Kemp got sent down after all to make room for Ledee. Coach Alomar lives another day!

Matt Kemp was just sent down, thoughts Peeps?

if anything this is good for Kemp I'm sure Grady gave him a good pep talk to make him feel good about him going down. I like it, gives him more AB's

We don't need a bat or a #5 starter. If we insist on improving immediately we need a #1 or 2 starter.
We have the best BA in the NL.

10- thank God

I still don't understand why Kemp is up here if he's our 5th outfielder. They are riding K Loft until he completely breaks down. When K Loft is not at Kenny speed, he's completely worthless. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends with a batting average in the .270 range by the time the year is over. About 3 weeks ago, he was hitting .320+

great...now there's not even hope that Lofton won't play. We're simply not going to win this division with Izturis and Lofton in the lineup every day.

I'm ok with Kemp at AAA. He had a great two weeks and kept us decent and he'll just get better. It's stupid that we are carrying three catchers, but consider the source.

K Loft is a great number 2 hitter. He works the count, walks a ton, doesn't hit into double plays, and is a fantastic bunter. What an outstanding player.

UM?

I hope they push Kemp hard to improve his plate discipline.

Eckstein is annoying in so many ways.

What an outstanding player.

overstatement of the year.

61 -- So, he's like the Derek Lowe of shortstops?

It sucks to be losing when all they have done is hit grounders.

the bad Lowe showed up, so far.

61

he's the little shortstop that could.

64-

and I don't see us putting up many runs on Carpenter with this lineup.

Good old buddy Juan Encarnacion.

Actually, scratch the good part.

68-

scratch the buddy part too.

69

He felt bad for the bad start from Lowe & did us a favor & struck out.

We're playing Angel Baseball

What is going on with Drew?

Way to make the pitcher work there, Andre!

72

He's steanking it up is what's happening.

you know, I have to believe Ned is trying like crazy to deal Perez as we speak or else he would have been DFA'd by now.

I have a huge problem with our offense. We're simply not going to win with both Lofton and Izturis out there. We have no legit HR threat, and I love Eithier as much as the next guy but I'll be shocked if he hits .350 in the second half.

Here's a new AP story on Odalis Perez, who apparently is not going to be traded. (Today, anyway.)
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5784328

In order to trade someone another team has to want him.

So were stuck with him?

Edmonds showing of his Glove, I don't like him.

We'll, were half-way there to making the rest of this season obsolete.

The first part was jettisoning Kemp for Ledee.

When Tomko replaces Billingsley, there will at that point be no reason to watch 2006 Dodger baseball. It'll be 2005, just replace AAAA players with mediocre vets. Marginal improvement, but not enough to make a difference.

I know I harp on it, but I think the D's offensive problems are mostly psychological. They hit as well as anyone in the league, but when they think they might lose, they make all kinds of pitchers look great. I think they need to get to a point where they have a nucleus of young players who must depend on each other. This could be like the AA nucleus last year, or it could be Kemp, Guzman, Laroche, Ethier, and Loney. I would hate to think we won't at least try this.

76 - Colletti also had a wry response to a hypothetical question of Perez' trade value, saying "Hypothetically, what do you think?"

Tony LaRussa managed perhaps the first compliment given to Odalis Perez this year, after ripping Grady for not ordering the intentional walk.

"That's why people pay attention to numbers," Cardinals manager Tony La Russa said. "Odalis Perez gets a lot of hitters out, but there's a confidence factor with Albert."

Lame!

The main problem here is we don't have a hit. No pitching is going to keep heart with that.

Has anyone notice Nomar's been cold this month?

Kent , Drew and Kent have been monolithic this month, and an ice statue at that.

It looks like that we will see lot of Perez tonight.

Um, so is Lowe's sinker not sinking tonight or what? It's more of a stinker.

85 Are you being sarcastic? You do know Nomar's got a 22 game hitting streak going, right?

Yes i'm a broken record.
Ned overdid it with the mediocre veterans, proof is ledee returns and kemp goes down, same thing when izturis returned aybar went down.

Izturis and lofton = stifling the offense (and that's bad considering our pitching staff).

Nothing more frustrating then a GM that overdoes it with mediocre veterans and trades young/prospects for more mediocre veterans.

Felipe Lopez so far tonight v Pittsburgh:

Grounded out in the first after Soriano doubled to open the game.
Flied out in the third.
Struck out with the bases loaded in the fourth to end the inning.
Grounded out to first with two on in the sixth to end the inning.

And one fielding error.

The Nationals people have started calling him F-lop.

I hope the Dodgers come from behind today, just to make the cards mad.

91
Still more productive than Clayton.

Admitedly, Carpenter has an ERA and a K/100 pitches that are extremely good in this era.
But I am amazed at the way the D's offense seems to collapse as one(or pile on as one earlier in the season).

Kears btw is 0-1 with a BB and a HBP.

add an n.

Down 3-0 in the 7th at Cincinnati, the Rockies got the first two batters on. Then Clint Hurdle had catcher JD Closser sacrifice.

Kemp was not getting enough ABs. He also was rushed here anyways and needs to work on some stuff. He needed some time in the minors.

89 - 22 games, yes, but he's not pulling as many bunnies out of his hat after the 6th, and he's had only 2 multi hit games in July.

I'm going to say it early and often. No-No going.

99
That's it. I've given up hope here. The Dodgers could win 25 straight games and outscore the opposition by 200 runs in that stretch and we'd still be complaining that:
1) too many guys swing at the first pitch
2) there aren't enough rookies
3) that Mark Hendrickson exists

Sheesh. Good night.

Antonio Perez just made a great play at 3rd on a bullet hit by Manny Ramirez.

100

Good point gen3blue NO-NO GOING FOLKS! THERE'S A NO-NO GOING!!

100 - I'd feel a lot better if they could have gone through three and wasted Carpenter a little more. I mean, 31 pitches?

Don't give up Bob! keep hope alive

I'm sorry but how is bringing up superstition a good point lol.

No no-no anymore, you (k)no(w)

Wow , deep fly and Furcal couldn't advance-- who is this Encarnation?

101 What Bob kvetched. I'm taking the night off too. Too many broken records.

101 - Well now we know where we can get a boost. Nomar can hit .400.

Bringing up super seemed to work--eh?

Both baserunners have been stranded. Guess Furcal's not running on Molina tonight?

Bob hates the Cardinals.
That might be it also.

111
Yeaaaah, that was it lol.

I'm starting to dislike Little Eck!

And Albert, there's a ball right to you, from JD Drew.

Nice play Russel, especially sweet to get Eckstein.

Could Lowe help his pitch count and just hit Eckstein?

117 - O Canada!

104 at bats without a home run. Sure, he's the 10th or 11th best hitting outfielder in the NL, but in terms of hitting overall, he's WAY down on the list.

104 at bats without a home run. Sure, he's the 10th or 11th best hitting outfielder in the NL, but in terms of hitting overall, he's WAY down on the list.

3-4-5 due for extra kick soon

And thank you Jon,for that darn accurate prediction that Lowe was getting lucky, and would decline.

*Russell

at www.minorleagueball.com

John Sickels did a write up on how our top 20 prospects are performing if anyone is interested.

3-4-5 due for extra kick soon

I'd hope Drew is due to at least hit the ball out of the infield soon.

99 Mom always told me not to say "Yeah, but..."

When Izturis and Lofton are in the lineup, why even bother complaining about JD Drew?

I hate the CARDS. And I don't respect their manager because it seems as if Tony always turns a "blind eye" to the steroid use on his teams. Every team he has managed seems to be "Juiced". They must have a great "strength coach". Tony is a joke and he has made a mockery of the game I love. What is you guys think?

I hate the CARDS. And I don't respect their manager because it seems as if Tony always turns a "blind eye" to the steroid use on his teams. Every team he has managed seems to be "Juiced". They must have a great "strength coach". Tony is a joke and he has made a mockery of the game I love. What is you guys think?

In honor of news that Bonds legal team is preparing for his indictment, Jeff Kent has warning track power.

Why are people complaining about our players that are actually good and performing? Not many players can go a full season without some bad stretches.

131 - because we're down 4-0

That was a nice pitch by Carpenter.

*What do you guys think?

According to Gameday the umps gave one to Carpenter. Should only be 1-2.

When Izturis and Lofton are in the lineup, why even bother complaining about JD Drew?

Exactly

I'm an aptomist so I think nobody is juiced anymore

There are 162 games in a season, we are going to lose some games in a row.

Carpenter is good and the Cards are a better team than the Dodgers.

Those two things should at least put a drag on the traffic flow to the complaint department.

I think its only constructive to complain about things that can be changed (examples being the starting lineup/roster). Complaining about things that are not controllable, are useless.

Elbert has not given up a run in 6 innings in JAX. He has 6 Strikeout, but also has 5 walks.

Elbert is effectively wild.

Once he learns to stop walking people he will be an elite player.

139 - I daresay you don't understand complaining.

Meloan has 4 strikeouts in 3 1/3 innings. He has not given up a run. This is his first appearance in Vero Beach.

Since May 1st, Drew is batting .273, with 5 home runs, 32 RBIs with a SLUGG of .478 in May,.414 in June, and .441 in July.

Bradley is back and is finally healthy. He was just activated from the DL and has lit a fire under the A's offense.

Bradley is 2-3 2 runs scored 2 rbi and also stole a home run from Manny. It would be nice to have him in center instead of Lofton. That said, I'd rather have Ethier since Bradley can't stay healthy.

136.

BECAUSE HE HASN'T HIT A HOME RUN IN 104 AT BATS. He has been extremely sub par.

145

Bradley will be on the DL soon.

145.

I'd rather have a cardboard cutout of Willy Mays in center than Lofton.

For all the flak that the Lofton over Kemp move has gotten, it's definitely the right move for Kemp's future. While he had a nice stretch to start his career, it was obvious he had a few things to work out and the best place for him to do that is in the minors. Plus, since his numbers still look good, his confidence should remain pretty high. Hopefully he tears up AAA, gets a September call-up and is ready to be an everyday player next year.

144-

the stuff about Drew is getting pretty old. It's pretty ridiculous that you harrass Drew endlessly yet don't even mention the fact that we've got Lofton and Izturis in the lineup.

can we please score a d* run?

Izturis in the lineup<<

last 4 games, Izturis has been more productive. Will Drew get a hit again, let alone a home run?

150 - It's one thing to complain about someone's very presence. It's another thing entirely when they aren't performing up to expectations.

Martin has earned his money getting Eck

Man, is this Furcal guy getting 12 million?

Bases loaded for Kearns.

Thinkingblue you are very transparent.
There are like 8 things wrong with this team (a team you predicted would run away with the NL West). Drew isnt one of them.

152-

UGH.

"last 4 games"???? Is this a joke!? hey, the last half inning so and so was the most productive!

Your bias against Drew is just unbelievable, and ridiculous. I have no idea why you're under the impression that JD Drew is a HR hitter..he never has been, and never will be.

Yet somehow you don't talk about Kent's lack of power, the fact that Izturis can't hit, the fact that Lofton is in the lineup...Drew really is the LEAST of our worries offensively.

Time for the managerial genius of Jim Tracy.

It's only a matter of time before I hear "Nats Win" from my TV.

last 4 games, Izturis has been more productive. Will Drew get a hit again, let alone a home run?

Please go back on the ritalin.
Your ADD is acting up in a bad way.

I've been thinking about something.
With all the mediocre veterans ned has acquired and the trade deadline coming up, one name has popped up in my mind, a guy that has always been part of a trade deadline deal and that name is terry mulholland.
What are the chances ned acquires terry mulholland?
LOL!

160-

I say 98% chance.

154
Lol did you bother to read Jon's post up top? The guy is turning it around, give him some time.

just got this text message from a friend who is a diehard A's fan:

"Why is Izturis playing? Why is Lofton playing? Does Ledee really offer something that Kemp doesn't? Your team is retarded."

I say 98% chance.

I was thinking about the same odds.

I hope we atleast score 1, I'd hate to be shut down by the cards.

Carpenter is an elite pitcher and he is just on his game tonight.

Drew's killing the ball.

if we score 1 run i'd call it a victory

Jesus, is Drew a worthless load.

167

no I think he's killing us fans

Man our offense is struggling right now. Furcal's the only guy who looks like he has a clue at the plate right now.

163
The A's are basically trotting out an entire lineup of guys not producing, yet we are the dumb ones.

According to SI.com, the White Sox want a set-up man, and are willing to give up either Freddy Garcia or Javier "East Coast" Vazquez. The Sox are targeting Tom Gordon, Duaner Sanchez and...Jonathan Broxton.

I wonder if instead of the untested, inexperienced Broxton, the Sox might go for a proven closer, a fierce competitor, Hollywood's most beloved Cuban-American since Desi Arnaz, and the secret to the Rays' success all those years, Dennys "Danny" Baez?

Drew has a WARP of 3.6, that is good! He is far from worthless. People just have unreasonable expectations for him. Drew gets on base, that is his best skill. He still has a high on base percentage.

173
I like that thinking.

I read above. I may just be frustrated but Furc isn't helping much. The D's may drive me to drink. If what we have seen isn't enough to convince most people its worth waiting on prospects, well I don't know. Its not when people stink it up, its when they get paid > 10 mil for it, that really makes me blue.

Dewitt hit 2 homeruns today!!! Nate will like that, since he has a "man crush" for him.

172 -
The A's are basically trotting out an entire lineup of guys not producing, yet we are the dumb ones.

W/L records:

LAD - 46-43
OAK - 46-43

Payrolls:
LAD - $98,447,187
OAK - $62,243,079

???

Gio "everyday pitcher" carrara.

Has this guy pitched in every game since being called up?

173 Oh, I hope so.

Its more that the A's dont have any choice about what lineup to throw out there.

The Dodgers have plenty of choices, but have just made dumb decisions.

Hall over Navarro
Lofton over Kemp
Izturis over Aybar

And so on...Thats what kills teams. When they have opportunity to make smart decisions, and instead do the exact opposite.

177 That might even keep his average above 260! Not so bad.

178
That was in reference to us playing Izturis, Lofton, and sending down Kemp. My point was we aren't the only team trotting out sub par players. I am also an A's fan, I know the A's are doing well.

181-

that's really what blows my mind. Isn't it the job of management to put out the BEST possible lineup on a nightly basis?

It's almost like we're trying to lose. We all know that an Aybar/Saenz platoon at third helps this team out sooooooooooooooo much more than Izzy, yet Izzy stays in there and he gets a free pass. Lofton isn't as bad, but if Izzy is going to be in there then he shouldn't and vice versa.

Essentially we have three slap hitters plus a pitcher in our lineup every day. That's 4/9 of our lineup that isn't going to drive in any runs and who knows what Eithier is going to do in the second half. I like Furcal a lot, he's been on fire lately....but putting the other two in the lineup every night it's almost like we're trying not to score any runs.

I was not trying to bash the A's my point was that a lot of teams play sub par hitters lol. We all know the A's win on pitching and defense.

And sending Kemp down is not a bad move!

Cesar Izturis has improved offensively every year, though his bat got downright icy while he was playing injured. As it stands now, he's hitting .280, got about a .333 OBP, and he's been playing some of the best defense seen at the hot corner for the Dodgers in a while. Pay this year: $3,100,000.

As for Lofton, you basically expected him to be a .290-.300 leadoff type hitter, and has a much better SB% than Furcal (heck, he's a better leadoff man than Furcal). Sure Repko or Kemp could have held centerfield, but that's more Colletti's fault, really. Pay this year: $3,850,000

JD Drew is not doing what one would hope. His career 162 game avg is .287/.393/.514 in 531 AB with 28 HR. Drew isn't on pace for 20 HR and has a .835 OPS. Pay this year: $11,000,000.

Didn't Carrera throw two innings last night?
Whats the story here.

183 - No, I get where you're coming from - all teams make mistakes. I don't think Oakland's really the poster-child for that, though, though, as you've just professed to be an Oakland fan, I'm guessing your knee-jerk reaction was probably just to recall your other preferred team.

I think 181 is really a good summation of my feelings on the 'sub-par' players of the A's and Dodgers... well, actually, 2 out of 3. I think Lofton's playing time is still defensible and Kemp could benefit from more time in AAA. The other two have been discussed ad nauseam (nauseum?), but I'm aligned mostly with Joey there.

*Didn't Carrera throw two innings last night?
Whats the story here.*

Gio "I pitch everyday" carrara

Baez may still be sick or Grady is just not expecting us to do much against Carpenter.

Andre the Assassin tries to impale another pitcher.

The test that Grady and Ned have for keeping a batter in the bigs is whether they can hit, and then recover from slumps. Be streaky, that's one thing, but if you get stuck on a bad streak, you'll be sent down. Kemp and Aybar went down in similar situations.

And someone who can't hit just singled to center.

There goes his trade value

I'm glad Kennedy didn't have to deal with this CMC, because if he did, our keyboards would be much harder to manipulate in Russian.

Hopefully Kenny Williams was not watching that.

The flu, or did he watch video of himself over the break?

Danys "White Flag" Baez.

Chris Carpenter will get his 5th career hit of Baez right now.

Mark Alexander got an entire paragraph in the Dodgers' notes. Nice to see Gurnick recognize him, and I have to wonder if he's part of the solution to our relief problems.

Teams dont develop players by sending them down each time they go into a slump. Players develop from being given ample playing time at the MLB level.

Izturis/Lofton is just a joke. I dont know what else can be said about it. How many 3rd basemen can Izturis outproduce? Why on earth is playing Lofton now better than playing Kemp now?

The problem with Colletti is he's trying to milk this Dodger team for all its worth, but the team isnt good enough. So end the veteran nonsense and start developing these youngsters for the future. Its like the Pirates. The Pirates are going nowhere, and they still play Casey, Randa, and Burnitz. The Dodgers arent as bad as the Pirates, but they'll be in the same spot by the time the season is over. Both wont be in the playoffs, and the season will have been a waste bc some of the young guys that should have been developing, were instead stuck in AAA.

Ughhhh. Those close-ups of the fans are killing me. St Louisians have to cut down on the Hardee's diet.

Baez falls temporarily into favor for finally getting Eckstein out.

186 - Not a comment on the entirety of your post, but regarding Izzy...

Cesar Izturis has improved offensively every year

Really? Because a quick look at his history suggests that his 2004 was a bit of an abberation (and even then his OBP was only .330, which is still sub-league average IIRC). He's still young, so it could be true that he's actually been improving and 2005 was momentary step back, and the rest of this season will be very telling, especially as it seems the Dodgers have committed to playing him full-time (barring a trade, which may happen regardless of LAD's belief of his value simply because of the amount of available 3B and SS talent in the minors).

However, he never has, and I doubt he ever will, be very good at getting on base, and he doesn't hit for much power. He fits the definition of a 'banjo-hitting' defensive specialist. There are places for players like that on a team. However, the team also needs players like Drew, who gives them a player that gets on base at an excellent clip and has shown the ability throughout his career to hit for power - even with this season's dip in power production he's still slugging .475+ and don't forget that there's still quite a few games to be played.

Look at the first half of the season last year - Drew was immensely productive (IIRC, he finished #2 in VORP for the year among the position players despite only playing in 72 games due to that freak injury). There's no reason to think that he can't get back to that level, and he's a solid outfielder.

Not necessarily. The Pirates have the Cardinals, Astros and even the Reds in the division.

What does the NL West have? A guy who's gonna be indicted next week for perjury and tax evasion.

200

I agree.

The only thing i differ with is that we might win the division, but so what, because once we get to the playoffs - its bye bye (knocked out in the first round).

Nice at bat.
Well at least I favor the complete game.

Kenny Lofton's highlight for the game was "Strikeout in the 7th"

I really wish I had Chris Carpenter going for my fantasy team today as opposed to Lowe and Beckett uggghhh.

200 Aybar you may have a case for, but apparently the current regime is so down on his defense that they'd rather have Izzy's weak bat. That's more of a difference in philosophy than a lapse of judgement.

Kemp, on the other hand, not only struggled but had obvious flaws. Going to the minors will be good for him now and in the future. The Pirates, on the other hand, keep burying 25-year-olds who have nothing left to prove in the minors. Kemp hasn't even spent half a season above A-ball yet, we don't want to make this another Edwin Jackson situation do we?

200 - I don't think that's entirely fair. There's something to be said for allowing young talent to continue to season in the minors - there are numerous examples of bringing a promising player up early and watching him flame out. Does that mean all those players would have been more successful if they had remained in the minors longer? Not necessarily, but I think sometimes it certainly helps.

The trick is finding the right balance, and also the right stopgaps. Though I don't agree with everything the current front office has done (much as the same can be said for pretty much every administrative group) they did a good job of picking up reasonably useful players with short-term deals.

I'm putting together the package:

Baez' career stats against the White Sox: Seven saves. But not a great ERA (4.70) or WHIP (1.52).

He's much worse in U.S. Cellular. All four of his losses against the Sox came there. He has an 8.07 ERA, 2.05 WHIP and his walks/K's is almost even.

Camille will have to spin it.

Baez should be a tempting target for the Yankees, Red Sox or Orioles, however. He pitched great against them, and great in their ballparks. He is an AL East-eating monster! Perfect set-up man for Papelbon. Successor-in-waiting to Mariano Rivera.

209 - Beat me to it. :)

205

I hope we win atleast one

By the way, credit should be paid to Chris Carpenter. Awesome. Honorable mention goes to Carrara, who has now twice impressed me with actual good pitches and not straight balls that hitters happen to miss (see Crisis, Cuban Missile on "good" days)

I will dream of Brandon Erbe or Jose Tabata for Baez.

Edwin Jackson failed because he wasnt good enough, the Dodgers messed with his mechanics, and he had an injury which took away his best velocity.

I dont think promoting young players is a problem to their development. I could care less about a guy's age. Either a guy is good enough or he isnt. The sooner you find that out, the better. Keeping guys in AAA where they can prove nothing, isnt helping the team whatsoever.

Kemp will improve faster facing MLB pitching, than he will facing AAA pitching. Its just a shame the Dodgers are so near sighted that they cant just stick with a youngster through his slump.

Maybe they'll have a different mindset after these 7 games with the Cards. I believe they'll be 5-7 games out after next weekends series with the Cards. Either that will set off a panic trade (bad), or set off some reality based thinking that says "this team isnt quite good enough this year, but some positive things can still be accomplished by playing the youngsters".

Closer in training: Double-A Jacksonville relief pitcher Mark Alexander is currently building on a streak of 19 1/3 consecutive scoreless innings pitched. Since the streak began on May 21, Alexander has appeared in 17 games, allowing only 12 hits while fanning 30. He pitched a season-high three innings in his last outing Saturday. Alexander's ERA has plummeted to 0.69 (three earned runs in 39 innings) and he has 20 saves on the season, third in the league. (Ken Gurnick article)

you guys here about this guy? what do you think bring him up?

214 makes sense to me

Wouldn't it be right about now that some fool panics and trades away the future?

{216}

I agree, with you to a surden extent.

psycho Lyons has a lazy eye today.

200 - i would've agreed with you about izturis playing 3rd last week but i went to the game on last saturday and his defense there was incredible. he took away at least two extra base hits from guys trying to hit balls down the line.

]221[

I saw him on saturday & his glove gave me goose bumps.

The Dodgers have been suffering at third for years, defensively. Izzy's a displaced shortstop, but the Dodgers don't want Furcal's throws going even wider by moving him to third. Izturis would be more useful at short, especially with a power-hitting 3B, but that's really Colletti's fault for the Furcal signing (regarded by SI as the worst of the year), though Furcal had the other hit of the night.

DePodesta did a lot of things I didn't like, but the day I officially decided I hated him was when Jose Valentin lost a ball in the chalk.

216 - Keeping guys in AAA where they can prove nothing, isnt helping the team whatsoever.

You don't think Kemp has anything to prove? He's played one half-season above Single A ball - as much as it pains me to say, his torrid start with the Dodgers could easily turn out to be a fluke. He looks like he'll end up having a real career, but so did Jackson. He had a brilliant, what, 3 or 4 weeks? Timing, as they say, is everything.

I'm not one to hold with too many 'old baseball' traditions, but one with which I do agree is that players can play themselves out of careers if brought up too early. Could Kemp improve more facing MLB pitching? Yes. All the same, could he believe there to be a problem with his swing (when in reality it looks mostly like he has strike-zone judgement issues) and change something that causes a disastrous dropoff from which he never recovers? I say yes.

Will that come to pass? Probably not. But I'm not so sure he won't improve plenty facing AAA pitching (seeing as he'd only had a couple months of anything like what you'll see at AA, there are probably still some things he can learn). He's, what, 21? Give him time. If the season's done anyway (as you seem to believe) then playing Lofton over him can't do damage to this year's chances. And I find it hard to believe that 3 months of AAA ball, instead of MLB-level, could inhibit his development so greatly.

216 That's a pretty harsh stance you're taking against prospects there, one that probably wouldn't hold much water with 99% of baseball minds.

By your reasoning, shouldn't Clayton Kershaw be in the majors now? If he comes up and does poorly, do you just leave him in the rotation all year and let him take his lumps?

There's a reason most players follow a standard growth curve before making it to the majors full-time. Guys like Pujols and Wright are exceptions to the rule because they are such immense talents. Every higher level presents new challenges that must be overcome to be a successful major leaguer. You think Kemp saw a lot of good curves in AA? Now being able to work out those kinks in an environment where he's not fighting to prove he belongs will allow him to relax and have a clearer head.

There's a difference between a player coming up, hitting a hard stretch, but still having good at-bats versus a guy like Kemp who had an obvious flaw (pitch selection) that not only showed up at-bat after at-bat, but was a knock on him coming into this year. He was doing better with it at AA, hopefully he can regain his batter's eye against better competition in AAA. Sending him down was the right thing to do, plain and simple.

Word of advice, don't argue prospects with Joey, no one will change their opinion. It is just pointless.

The focus around here has been on Flanders, and rightly so given his bizarre fixation with the Tampa Bay roster, but we shouldn't forget McCourt. McCourt is 1) squirrely and 2) still not to be trusted as far as his long-term plans (i.e., does he have them, or is this all a real estate play).

226 - You know, there's actually something to be said for people who take a stand and don't budge. If nothing else, it allows those who disagree to refine their arguments against that stand.

Besides, I'm a masochist. =P

By the way, trading anything but Baez for Maddux would be extremely goofy.

227 - I think I saw Frank McCourt storing bags of peanuts in a tree-bole he keeps in his office...

228
Oh, if your'e a masochist by all means have at it lol.

meanwhile at the big A Lackey is pitching another gem.

230 -- That blowup at Flanders whenever it was haunts me at night. I like that the owner supposedly cares, but it concerns me regarding what exactly he thought he had other than a mean .500 team that had the capability of winning either 91 or 71 depending on how the ball bounced.

Where do you think our top prospects would fit in the lineup?

Ignore the merits of this deal. Let's suppose Izturis just stays at third for this year so he can win a gold glove there, and next year he starts working on his 2nd base gold glove. Then suppose that Nomar goes to the Yanks as a FA, and Drew and Kent are traded off. We're going to play Kemp, Loney, Laroche, Repko, Martin, Ethier, Guzman on the big club next year.

Here's the point.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to fill in the following lineup.
1) Furcal - SS
2) Izturis - 2B
3) ?????
4) ?????
5) ?????
6) ?????
7) ?????
8) ?????

4th OF - ??????

"blowup at Flanders?"

I missed this story. They had words? They went mano a mano? They yo' mama'd? When did this happen? What are the details?

235
One game when the Dodgers were getting crushed at the beginning of this year, McCourt was seen just yelling at Ned aka Flanders.

233 - Good point. Then again the team DID fire Jim Tracy... isn't that supposed to be an automatic 30-40 win improvement right there?

234 - Slight logical fallacy in the premise - if Drew and Kent are traded, one assumes some sort of return on the trades, no? Pick your favorite Devil Rays... :)

235 - It was the game where Odalis blew a 6 run lead with a grand slam in AZ, leading to his demotion to the bullpen and being "treated like trash."

I believe there is an argument to be made for sending down Matt Kemp to learn some plate discipline before he turns into Jeff Francouer 2.0.

There is however, no argument in favor of Cesar Izturis at third base that makes any sense whatsoever. I don't care how good his defense is. I think I've already said this before, but a good defensive player is never as important as a good offensive player, ever. Aybar/Saenz would be a solid third base tandem for us this year.

237 - They'll all be pitchers or pitching prospects. No Lastings Milledge.

237

I think Cantu would look good in Dodger blue + he's mexican.

Crawford

Could Kemp improve more facing MLB pitching? Yes.

Thats my point.

Someone messed up the audio during the Braves game just now. One of the producers could be heard talking about why he hates Kill Bill and Quentin Tarantino movies haha.

Crawford - because the Dodgers don't have enough depth in the outfield?

Will no one try to decide my lineup from #234?

234 -- Once you started with those two, why would it matter?

245
Depends who Drew and Kent are traded for.

245

I choose the pass on the mission

I noticed for the first time today that Izzy grew his hair out. He used to have a pool-table cut. Now he looks like the guy who played the murderer in "Capote."

245

pitching, pitching & more pitching.(the dodger way)

234- the lineup doesn't matter as much as the players who are in.

Kemp needs some time in AAA. He's had a few hundred at bats in AA and none in AAA. He needs to work on his pitch recognition. I'd much rather have him playing everyday in AAA, than sitting on the bench in the majors.

Milton Bradley's final line
4-5 3 R 3 RBI 1 BB and stole a home run from Manny

Antonio Perez's line:
0-6 3 Ks ouch! Though he did make a nice defensive play.

Now being able to work out those kinks in an environment where he's not fighting to prove he belongs will allow him to relax and have a clearer head.

Thats the entire point.
The Dodgers need to play the youngsters everyday, regardless of the outcome. Make them feel like they belong, and are there to stay. Kemp should be relaxed knowing he's in the lineup no matter how many times he K's or makes outs. Its when you have a veteran like Lofton, that demands PT, that plans like these go awry.

People to point to Edwin Jackson failing, but the guy got hurt and lost his velocity. It had nothing to do with simply his age. It was a physical problem. He once threw 98, he got hurt and then threw 90, and the mistakes he'd make would get crushed.

Not much of a chance Kemp learning discipline at the minor league level. I've heard reports the Dodgers arent doing the Oakland thing anymore.

Fine! New assumption. Drew and Kent both go down with Tommy John surgery in Spring Training, and Kent actually agrees not to try to come back in September.

If you want to move Furcal and Izturis around in the lineup, fine.

240 - Hmm... Well, that doesn't really hold with the current front-office plan (as far as I can tell) to bring along the prospects slowly while protecting them with short-term deals to moderately productive veterans. However...

As far as positions go it's an easy no brainer. Loney at 1st, LaRoche at 3rd, Martin at C, and the other 4 filling out the outfield. I'm going to figure that who ends up the 4th OF depends heavily on how Repko's rehabilitation goes. If he comes back mostly at full strength, I'd figure he'd be one of the top 3 at least at the start of the season. Kemp's the most likely candidate to be the other full-time players, with Ethier and Guzman the 4th-OF options (again, depending on how Ethier's 2nd-half goes... if he hits .350 for the rest of the season, he's obviously in).

As for lineup order, I'd stick Izzy in the 7th or 8th slot, but if he has to bat 2...

Furcal
Izzy
Loney (this based on his destruction of AAA)
Kemp (we all know he's got the ability to hit for power)
Martin
LaRoche
Repko/Ethier (Ethier's here if he's playing)
Repko/Guzman (Guzman's here if he's playing)

If I could toss Izzy to the back of the lineup, I'd put Loney in the 2 slot, LaRoche in the 3.

why dose Seo pitch good when he get's sent down or go to another team!!??

252 - Can we option him to the A's minor league system and then trade Toby Hall for him?

243 - You misunderstood me. I used 'could' as in, is it a possibility he will improve more facing MLB pitching than not? Yes, it is. But it is also a possibility that facing MLB pitching too early will hurt his long-term growth as a player. NOT that he will undoubtedly improve more facing pitching in the majors compared to in AAA.

255 -- Because like the pitcher he was traded for, his career is completely ruled by the luck of the bounce, and so your mileage may vary from year-to-year, start-to-start, pitch-to-pitch...

He's facing the Angels tonite.
Thats one reason.

Not sure how he fooled the Yankees before though.

234-

I'll give it a shot.

Arranged by batting order.

Aybar- 2B
Laroche-3B
Kemp- CF
Ethier- LF
Martin- C
Guzman- RF
Loney- 1B
Furcal- SS
P

4th OF- Young

Izturis on the bench as a late inning sub, which is what he should be right now.

252 It's not just the playing time that's the issue (aka Lofton), it's that he has a lot of pressure to prove that he belongs in the major leagues. That leads to him wanting to get a hit every time at-bat and being overanxious, which resulted in a lot of swings at curve balls low and away. Hitting in AAA, however, will allow him to take the mindset that he's just trying to "work out the kinks" and be able to focus more on improving his individual game than feeling like he has to be a major contributor.

1.Furcal
2.Aybar
3.LaRoche
4.Kemp
5.Guzman
6.Ethier
7.Loney
8.Martin
9.Pitcher

Aybar and Martin can be flip flopped. There is no point to playing Izturis if we keep all our prospects.

it's interesting watching former Dodgers (Navarro & Seo) I'm glad Navarro & his family is o.k.

The D-Rays would do a lot better if they swung the darn bat.

...especially the jerks on my fantasy team (Gomes and Navarro).

JoeyP-

You have to consider that Kemp would be a 5th outfielder if he stayed up. Let's be real. Grady has shown that he will only play the youngsters when forced by injury. You are assuming Kemp will get consistent ABs. He might not even get to play once a week if he stays up here.

252 - There's a difference between learning discipline and learning pitch recognition. Look at Nomar. He's got okay discipline, but not great discipline (career walk rate of .048). He came up through a Red Sox organization that, if you want to believe what was written about them in Moneyball, actually -discouraged- walks in the minor leagues. However, when playing well like he is this season it's clear he has the ability to do well differentiating between pitches he can hit from pitches that look like he can hit them. And even pitches that are more difficult to hit that he doesn't lay off of, he can sometimes predict where they'll go and adjust (see Guerrero, Vlad).

This is a skill developed over time, and I think there's evidence suggesting that it's one that is best learned incrementally. Pitchers at AAA are more deceptive and have more movement than pitchers at AA, but less than those in the majors. Rather than being totally fooled and learning little from it, a player can recognize his mistake and make the minor adjustments necessary to compete at that level. Then, he moves up. Jumping levels without an unbelievable ability to handle pitches (see Pujols, Albert) seems to leave younger hitters in a tough situation. They know they're being fooled but it's by a wider margin and therefore harder to make the correct adjustment. This forces them to try multiple solutions which aren't always the best and can mess with a hitter's swing.

But it is also a possibility that facing MLB pitching too early will hurt his long-term growth as a player.

How so?
I've heard this bantered about, and dont agree with the logic at all.

What is the logic? Will bad habits form at an early age from facing MLB pitching? If anything, I'd think the opposite would be true. MLB's pitchers study tape, they have advanced scouts, etc...Those forces force hitters to make adjustments, and then growth takes place.

I think bad hahits can and do form at the minor league level though.

254 - I know it's not realistic, but I wondered what the consensus is on where everyone would go in the lineup.

I'd go
Furcal
Martin
Ethier/Kemp
Laroche
Guzman
Kemp/Ethier
Loney
Izzy

I'd take Ethier or Kemp at #3.

If using Repko, I'd make him a #2 guy, with Martin at 7 and Izzy at 8.

It is now crowded in Vegas with Repko on his rehab assignment (my guess is that he comes back during the next homestand), they now have Kemp, Guzman, Repko, Young, Ruan, LaRoche, and Loney to fill the outfield and corner infield. Aybar is playing second. This team should now be able to score some runs.

Some highlights from the today's minor league action.

Blake DeWitt maybe getting it together with 2 homers and 4 RBI at Vero Beach today.

John Meloan, a 2005 5th round pick out of Arizona, started the year in Columbus, where he struck out 41 in 23 1/3 IP, had his first relief situation tonight and struck out 4, walked 1 and gave up a hit in 4 1/3 IP while getting the win.

Scott Elbert won his second game in AA, 6 IP, 6 K, 5 BB, 1 hit and no runs.

Hu and Abreu went 7-10, Hu had a homer and a double.

254 - GAH! Forgot Aybar. Hmm... I'm rather in agreement with 260 and 262... If I can move players around and whatnot, let's see... I'd say just replace Izturis in the 2 spot with Aybar.

267 - See 266.

I'm trying to figure out what's most intriguing/puzzling about the Tigers' relief corps:

a. Their worst pitcher (ERA-wise) is their closer
b. The ERAs of their 2 best relievers (Rodney and Zumaya) combined is approximately the same as their closer
c. Said closer is 3rd in the AL with 24 saves
d. Said closer has a 2-5 W-L record (including today's win)
e. Said closer makes about 5 times as much as the two best relievers combined

265. Thats a big reason why the Dodgers will continue to just spin their wheels.

271. How do you evaluate whether a hitter has 'pitch recognition' skills?

How will the Dodgers know that Kemp is learning that skill?

269 - John Meloan, a 2005 5th round pick out of Arizona, started the year in Columbus, where he struck out 41 in 23 1/3 IP

He struck out 41? Forget Billingsley! =P (sorry, couldn't resist)

the more i see Lackey the more he's becoming one of my favorites to watch.

269
Good to hear about Meloan.

I am also a big fan of DeWitt and I always thought it was a matter of time before he started hitting. He has the chance to be the best hitter of all our prospects I think (he won't have the same power numbers, but he is a second baseman).

274 - I don't know. I'm not a scout. However, as far as I can tell there is a pretty consistent agreement amongst those 'in the know' that Kemp doesn't have it. It can be seen, at least as far as I can tell, by watching at-bats. Watching Kemp flail at a hard curve way out of the zone, and not only miss the pitch but miss it by a mile, is usually a pretty good indicator.

You suggest he's pressing too hard, which causes him to go after these pitches. But even if he's going after bad pitches to swing at, he should be able to analyze them and at least come close or make contact. It's one thing to swing at a bad pitch. It's another entirely to have no idea where it's going when you do swing at it.

273.

I agree that it's not very smart.

But I'd rather that Kemp continue improving in the minors than languishing on the bench.

I have no problem, in general, with the strategy of having the veterans protect the rookies from having to carry the expectations of the fans and owners while the rookies shuttle up and down to LV as needed. I actually think sending Kemp down was a thoughtful move. It is entirely typical of how young players develop. I've been following the argument and I haven't seen any numbers to counter the conventional wisdom here. (Usually, when a contrarian view is expressed on DT, there are numbers to back it up, and it then becomes the new conventional wisdom.) I have no problem with Lofton being used as an escape valve. Yeah, it's nice when Florida or Arizona goes on a run with all its AAA prospects, but the comedown when they struggle is harsh. Remember, too, in Florida, Tampa Bay, even Oakland, they have a lot fewer fans, and a tamer media. It's easier to hide there than in front of a full-house at Dodger Stadium against the Giants. Plus, what fans those teams have realize they are going to see a rebuilding project every three or four years. The reality is, that won't work here. If you're a Dodger fan, you're going to be frustrated if you want the team to act like the Marlins. You are rooting for a big-market team, and they are different.

278

I will respectfully disagree with you bruin

274 Why have a minor league system at all then? Obviously they have coaches and minor league coordinators that have enough skill to evaluate such aspects of a player's game who then report back to upper management. If you couldn't tell that Kemp was having a hard time recognizing pitches then I find it hard to take any of your arguments seriously in the first place.

Even if the Marlins had money to burn, I doubt they'd play Kenny Lofton over Matt Kemp.

The Marlins showed no fear in bringing up Miguel Cabrera the year they won the WS. He didnt even have a great 2003. He was average. But they stuck with him throughout that whole year.

They didnt bench him in order to play veterans like Conine/Encarnacion.

280 - Well-said.

Joey, let me elaborate on something here. I think Kemp's being sent to the minors was a good move. I think players generally succeed when they are brought along at a proper pace. Now, that having been said, I don't want it to seem like I entirely disagree with your point of view.

I think one of the most annoying things, as a fan, is when a team has a lot of talent in the minors and lets it simply simmer for years while overpaid veterans struggle to stay above .500. However, I don't think that's the case here - the prospects are just now approaching the points in their developments cycles where they should be getting to the big club, and some have done a better job of sticking than others.

I think that, at worst, you could make the argument that a player going back to AAA for three months might, might retard his development very slightly. I don't agree with it, but feel free to make the point - however, it's not like we're shipping him off to the Australian penal colony for a decade. It's 3 months in AAA, where, assuming he's the player we all believe and hope he is, he'll dominate the competition and come into 2007 full of confidence and a year more experienced.

Now, on the flip side, you could be making the argument that this is simply a look into a damaging philosophy the Dodger front office seems to have. I think there's merit to that. But everybody keeps saying, "yeah, deals XYZ aren't particularly harmful, but they give insight into what the leadership could do!"

I'm a glass-half-full kind of fan. I don't agree with everything that's happened here, but I think the team is still poised to do a lot of good things. Destroying the front office for relatively-inconsequential moves because they might be precursors to something terrible is, I think, unneccessary. If some major mistake is done, we won't have been able to prevent it no matter what we say, and believe you me there will be plenty of shirt-rending and tooth-gnashing and so-on. Until then, I think it's best to treat this move for what it is:

something some people agree with, some disagree with, but likely to have a largely minimal impact on the franchise, and an impact at that which could in the long run be benef