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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Billingsley Comes Alive
2006-07-18 21:22
by Jon Weisman

And Aybar Too

In some respects, it was the same old young Chad Billingsley. Singles - some seeing-eye, some with 20-20 vision - instead of strikeouts. Pitches here and there not only missing the bull's-eye, but the entire target.

But as tonight's game went on, those moments came less frequently, and a mix of fastballs and curves pitches found their spots - on the corners, in on the hands - and you realized that the Arizona Diamondbacks were not getting good wood on hardly anything.

Billingsley was foolin' em, and suddenly the uphill battle that has been his career up to now leveled off into a cruise. He finished with seven shutout innings, allowing six hits - all singles - walking two and striking out four, on 103 pitches. In his final three innings, he got one double-play grounder and what should have been another, and he struck out his final two batters.

This is just one step for Billingsley. One neato step.

* * *

The first at-bat I saw live tonight by Willy Aybar produced a 360-foot opposite field flyout. Aybar did not get all of the pitch and to a large extent was just going with it, yet he came within shouting distance of a home run. Keeping in mind that we just haven't seen many Dodgers hit the ball very far - it's not as if their home run drought has featured many near-misses - it was really a sight to see. And it was not a surprise, therefore, to then see Aybar get his second double of the game, a booming shot to center field.

Aybar basically hit non-stop for the first two months of his Dodger career (September 2005 and May 2006), then went into a slump and didn't get the chance to come out of it. When you're a veteran, you get a long rope, but when you're a rookie, you get a Q-Tip. Life goes on - Aybar went down to Las Vegas and Cesar Izturis returned from his long absence, and we found out what Izturis could do. He's still got the great glove - with an all-too typical .679 OPS.

It's not as if Aybar will hit two doubles every game, but I'm not sure we've found out all he can do. Maybe he's only good against National League West pitching for now, or something like that. But watching him work the bat with authority tonight, it's hard to believe the Dodgers could send him down again.

Comments (194)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-18 21:49:49
1.   JoeyP
But watching him work the bat with authority tonight, it's hard to believe the Dodgers could send him down again.

No, it's completely believable that they would send him down again.
Must remember who is running the show now.

2006-07-18 21:52:06
2.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I thought it was fun to watch.

My personal punchbowl is free of ... um ... you know ... those things....

2006-07-18 21:53:12
3.   Bob Timmermann
Ben Broussard just fouled a ball completely out of Angels Stadium.
2006-07-18 21:53:59
4.   Uncle Miltie
For the first four innings of the game, it looked like Billingsley was able to hit his spots with almost every pitch. Even the balls he threw were close. Later in the game when he was getting tired, he was having trouble locating his fastball. He started mixing in some curveballs to keep the hitters honest. This is a sign of a pitcher developing and maturing. A very impressive outing from Billingsley.

When given a chance, Wilber has proven that he can hit. Today, he was a lot more aggressive than usual. He was getting his pitch early in the count and making the pitchers pay. That's what good hitters do.

Props to Lofton. He wasn't taking a lot of pitches today, but he was swinging at strikes. Like Aybar, he was waiting for his pitch. He was limping around the bases on the Hudson aided double. The Dodgers should consider putting him on the DL soon because when he can't go Kenny speed, there's not a lot that he can do and it limits his effectiveness.

2006-07-18 21:54:13
5.   StolenMonkey86
We have 3 catchers. Alomar is still bound to go to the DL with an ailment called "being a 40 year old catcher", and nobody came in for Izturis.

Aybar stays up for two weeks, and, just when Kent is about to return from the DL, Danys Baez is out for the year with an injury. Dodgers win the World Series, despite having 3 closers on the DL.

2006-07-18 21:54:38
6.   Jon Weisman
1 - You're missing my point.
2006-07-18 21:59:10
7.   Nomarsoup4U
I forgot what it felt like to win a game
2006-07-18 22:00:23
8.   LA Native
5

I agree. Alomar will be on the DL for August most likely and then back when the rosters expand. Assuming Aybar doesn't tank, he'll stay. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if he was traded.

4 - I agree on Lofton. He looks terrible running, and it seems like he is going to injure himself further. I wonder if he can get his legs back to normal this year.

2006-07-18 22:01:50
9.   trainwreck
Congratulations to Chad for his first win. I hope Aybar stays up, but I am not giving my hopes up.
2006-07-18 22:03:21
10.   MartinBillingsley31
Logan White has done a great job, lets sell some mediocre veterans to free up roster spots and bring up more prospects like loney kemp and be able to keep aybar.

Izturis lofton martinez alomar cruz ledee are all dead weight.

2006-07-18 22:07:14
11.   mikethinksblue
It seems to me that Billingsley has gotten himself into a lot of jams, then somehow gotten out of them. Especially in the first couple innings. I'm not sure if its luck, or talent that has gotten him out of said jams. Either way, I'm happy to see him succeed, but am still a little skeptical...
2006-07-18 22:07:54
12.   Gagne55
10 And where will Loney play? Nomar ain't givin' up first base for nobody. Have you seen Kemp lately? He sucks. It looks like the first two weeks were a fluke.
2006-07-18 22:09:18
13.   Jon Weisman
1 - My point was simply that Aybar looked like a bonafide major-leaguer.

But beyond that, this comment features the kind of relentlessness that I find so troubling lately. The Dodgers just called Aybar up, for crying out loud. They're on a five-game losing streak, at a fairly critical time in the season, and they put him right in the starting lineup in place of Jeff Kent (who probably could have continued to play through his injury if desperate enough). The Dodgers could have called up Oscar Robles, traded for Aaron Boone, whatever. Instead, they went straight back to Aybar. The comment in 1 sort of falls under the umbrella of "no good deed goes unpunished."

It's not that 1 is inaccurate. But subjectively, it's just too much. Should every good Dodger moment be punctuated by "don't expect it to last - remember who's in charge?"

2006-07-18 22:09:20
14.   LA Native
10

I would say Martinez and Lofton are valuable subs. I think it would be better if we could trade Izturis. It might be possible if a contender has their shortstop get hurt in the next week or so. Either Cruz or Ledee is likely to be gone when Repko comes back. Grittles apparently says they are anxious to get Repko back, so I take that statement to mean that he won't be left at AAA once the rehab assignment ends. I imagine it would take him another week or so to get back his timing.

2006-07-18 22:09:51
15.   MartinBillingsley31
And where will Loney play?

Outfield, yes he's been playing in the outfield this season in the minors.

Have you seen Kemp lately? He sucks.

He's tearing up AAA right now.

2006-07-18 22:10:29
16.   Gagne55
11 Exactly. Over his past two games, he's thrown 12 shutout innings, but has given up a ton of baserunners. He reminds me of Russ Ortiz back when he was with the Giants and Braves. Likes pitching through the raindrops.
2006-07-18 22:11:19
17.   Bluebleeder87
I am really encouraged by Repko's 4 for 4 game.
2006-07-18 22:12:19
18.   Gagne55
15 Well, in that case, call up Lony Gwynn.
2006-07-18 22:13:58
19.   Bluebleeder87
18

yeah, Last I checked he had a .391 avg.

2006-07-18 22:14:14
20.   Uncle Miltie
Have you seen Kemp lately? He sucks. It looks like the first two weeks were a fluke.
It's called the league finding his weaknesses and exploiting them. Kemp does not suck. Like a lot of young hitters, he had a difficult time adjusting after some early success. What he did in his first 15 games shows what kind of potential he has.
2006-07-18 22:15:18
21.   natepurcell
Nah Kemp sucks.
2006-07-18 22:15:40
22.   jujibee
16 - Keep in mind that he is a 21 year old rookie with 2 1/2 years of professional experience. I think he's been pretty impressive thus far and will be able to become a solid #3 for us this year. When he's 24, he will be the ace we've been searching for since we had Kevin Brown in his prime.
2006-07-18 22:15:49
23.   LA Native
15

Do we know how good Loney is at playing the outfield? It is a little different from playing a few games out there in the minors to being thrown into a major league outfield. He has 10 errors at LV. I wonder how many of those are in the outfield. For that reason I don't think we'll see him out there even when he is called up when the rosters expand. I think Kemp clearly needs a little time in AAA. He not only wasn't hitting at all after his hot start, he looked very bad at the plate, especially on the 55 foot curveball that was a few feet outside. He will be back at some point soon, but I'm not sure now is the best time.

2006-07-18 22:18:02
24.   Gagne55
20 Yes, but what he showed in his next 15 games shows the kind of potential he has in the other direction. I think he'll be a good major league player someday. But I don't think that day is today. And I doubt he'll ever be the Mays/DiMaggio type that he looked like in his first two weeks.
2006-07-18 22:19:06
25.   mikethinksblue
I'm happy that Kemp is getting consistant AB's in LV. Better than 5 or 6 per week in the Bigs. Can't wait to see him next year.
2006-07-18 22:21:14
26.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm happy that Kemp is getting consistant AB's in LV. Better than 5 or 6 per week in the Bigs.

That was grady's fault for being in love with lofton.
But i agree that kemp having consistent at bats is more important than being in the bigs.

2006-07-18 22:21:52
27.   Gagne55
22 I'm comparing him to the Russ Ortiz of the past, not today's Russ Ortiz. Ortiz was a real good pitcher from 2001-2004 despite a poor WHIP.
2006-07-18 22:23:06
28.   mikethinksblue
26 thanks for spelling consistent right for me.
2006-07-18 22:24:08
29.   Eric L
I went to the game on Hollywood Stars night but due to a prior commitment, I missed the Hollywood Stars game.

I would like to take the time to thank prior commitment for making me miss the game.

2006-07-18 22:24:25
30.   jujibee
What happens to the outfeild if Drew opts out at the end of this year? I wouldn't mind seeing Ethier LF, Kemp rf, and Repko cf. It's young, but very athletic and very promising if these guys reach their ceilings.
2006-07-18 22:24:57
31.   MartinBillingsley31
thanks for spelling consistent right for me.

You might be right and i might be wrong.
I'm bad with spelling.

2006-07-18 22:25:02
32.   Gagne55
Also, how can somebody who saw what happened to Edwin Jackson declare that Billingsley will be an ace as if it's inevitable? Cause Billingsley is white?
2006-07-18 22:27:12
33.   natepurcell
32

What are you talking about?

2006-07-18 22:27:15
34.   MartinBillingsley31
What happens to the outfeild if Drew opts out at the end of this year?

I highly doubt drew opts out, 11 million per year is a lot and he's not tearin it up this season.

2006-07-18 22:27:41
35.   Gagne55
30 Too soon to talk about that. Depends if Nomar resigns for one thing.
2006-07-18 22:28:02
36.   Uncle Miltie
My bad, I completely forgot that Kemp is the next Glenallen Hill/Preston Wilson
2006-07-18 22:28:35
37.   jujibee
27 - I agree that he gets himself into jams a la Ortiz, but he is 10 years younger than Ortiz was when he was pitching like that. He has got a lot of potential and hopefully he works on a changeup this offseason. Comparing a rookie, as young as he is, to a guy that had a few good years doesn't project him to the same fallout.
2006-07-18 22:29:26
38.   natepurcell
So since Jackson hasn't made it, that means Billingsley won't make it? Billingsley had the best outing his short major league career so far, we are happy about that HOPING it will lead to better things. I mean, everyone can gripe, be skeptical and live in a world of wear all they want but seriously, Jackson and Billingsley are two different people in two different scenarios and one scenario does not effect the other.
2006-07-18 22:29:40
39.   Blu2
30___There ain't nobody on God's Green Earth going to offer Drew more than the $11M we have to pay him. Give it up, we're stuck with him.
2006-07-18 22:29:41
40.   LA Native
30

I wouldn't mind seeing that outfield and then we could spend some big money on Zito and some bullpen help. However, I don't think Ned would have enough confidence in that outfield to let it be. Also, if Drew only hits 15 homers, which is what he is on pace for, no one is going to pay him more than we are paying him, so he would be pretty dumb to opt out.

2006-07-18 22:30:17
41.   jujibee
32 - Well he has the benefit of the Tracy-Colburn regime not playing with his mechanics, and that's a huge plus.
2006-07-18 22:31:06
42.   Gagne55
32 Jujibee declared in post 22 that Billingsley will be an ace at age 24. He didn't say potentially. he didn't say probably. He said he will. Jackson was once a top 5 prospect and flamed out. Billingsley being a bust wouldn't suprise me, simply based on what organization he plays for.
2006-07-18 22:32:56
43.   natepurcell
Billingsley being a bust wouldn't suprise me, simply based on what organization he plays for.

You mean the organization that has produced koufax, veneuzuela, herisher, pedro, etc, etc, etc?

2006-07-18 22:32:56
44.   Gagne55
I also wouldn't be suprised to see him become an ace. I just hope he can pitch like he did today more often than he has.
2006-07-18 22:33:28
45.   DaveP
It's interesting to see how after a fun night of Dodger baseball (at least for me), the comments are largely negative about one player or another. How about enjoying a good night by the guys on the big league team, as well as most of the prospects down in AAA.
2006-07-18 22:34:16
46.   JoeyP
My point was simply that Aybar looked like a bonafide major-leaguer.

Well, yeah. I wont disagree with you. I've been one of Aybar's biggest fans.

But I dont think management feels that way. If they did, they wouldnt have chosen Lucille, Izturis, and Mueller at different parts of the season to replace Aybar before. When Kent comes back, I think Aybar will be sent back again. Its not an overstated opinion. I'm actually surprised that you feel management should be given some sort of credit for not doing the dumbest thing possible (signing Aaron Boone, recalling Robles).

Have our expectations sunk so low, that its time for celebration when the GM doesnt do something completely stupid?----dont answer Steve.

2006-07-18 22:34:38
47.   CanuckDodger
32 -- Projections are educated guesses based on talent and stats; no one said there is any inevitability to them. Stuff (I'm resisting the temptation to use another s-word here) happens. Billingsley simply projects as an ace. Could something unforessen happen that derails that? Sure. His arm could go haywire. He could develop Steve Blass disease -- like Ankiel, another ace-in-the-making. He could burn to death in a fire.
2006-07-18 22:35:21
48.   bobbygrich
45 They need to go 162-0 and then there will be no hate.
2006-07-18 22:36:04
49.   Gagne55
37 I'm not calling him the next Russ Ortiz. I'm just stating that he's pitched so far like Russ Ortiz did. I'm not saying anything about his future with that statement.
2006-07-18 22:36:24
50.   D4P
God's Green Earth

How long until we start calling it "God's Brown Earth"?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-18 22:37:00
51.   natepurcell
45

I agree 100%. It amazes me, after one of crown jewels in the organization has an awesome night on the mound, and people are still criticizing him. Why can't people ever be satisfied and enjoy the moment? Compounded with that fact that we also won, and our young players in AAA also had decent nights, savor the moment. stop worrying about the future so much.

2006-07-18 22:37:27
52.   jujibee
42 - whatever. Take your play on words and run with them. I was implying that, in 2 1/2 years Bills has done some wonderful things. He's built like a tree trunk and looks like he has yet to reach his potential. EJ would've been better if the old regime didn't play with his mechanics and left him be. I recall when EJ went back to AA in the Dodger orginaization, that the pitching coach recommended he revert back to his old mechnics. When he did he was quite effective, but that being said, I believe Bills is the real deal. He's shown it before we drafted him and ever since. Something has to be said for a guy as young as him doing what he's doing.
2006-07-18 22:37:47
53.   Eric L
45 Maybe it's because I don't spend as much time here as I used to, but it the dislike for certain players seems far more negative and rash than it used to be.

Of course, it could be that there isn't a common bad guy to root against anymore.

2006-07-18 22:38:07
54.   JoeyP
Ortiz was a real good pitcher from 2001-2004 despite a poor WHIP.

Huh?

how can somebody who saw what happened to Edwin Jackson declare that Billingsley will be an ace as if it's inevitable? Cause Billingsley is white?

Is this the Twilight Zone hour of DT?

2006-07-18 22:39:33
55.   Gagne55
48 Then there would be griping about how the Dodgers were going to blow the playoffs. ;)
2006-07-18 22:42:02
56.   mikethinksblue
45
Based upon Billinglsey's record so far, I think its much too early to declare him a future ace or a flash-in-the-pan. My thought is that is that perhaps luck is helping him so far.
2006-07-18 22:43:16
57.   bobbygrich
46 Remember, no matter how much relevance you think this has, Ned and Grady were not here last year and there wasn't a lot of positives for them to go on.

And, my preference is towards veterans as back ups as opposed to kids, I just think they are better prepared for it.

Also Willy did not play well in Winter ball nor as I recall have a bang up spring.

It wasn't until he went out and hit the ball consistently and with some power in AAA, did he go back on the radar and he was brought up when Mueller went down.

Everybody forgets that after last season, the Mueller signing was not seen as disaster and the battle was between Ramon Martinez and Oscar Robles for the last spot, which even the most cynical person here would say that he has done a good job.

Once again, all I am trying to say is that there were valid reasons why Aybar started off in AAA, when the vacancy opened up, he came up and he played. It took the return of Izzy to send him down and now with Kent's return to DL, he is back.

2006-07-18 22:43:30
58.   Uncle Miltie
Also, how can somebody who saw what happened to Edwin Jackson declare that Billingsley will be an ace as if it's inevitable? Cause Billingsley is white?
What was the point of bringing race into this discussion? Just trying to stir the pot?
2006-07-18 22:44:18
59.   LA Native
53

If you just looked at this board you'd think that Lofton, Martinez, and Repko were all hitting way below 200 based on the extreme negative comments, but they are all above 300. Not saying these players don't have some flaws and they should start all the time, but I wouldn't cut them. I think that some of posters here would clear them out as soon as possible. I'm all for bringing up the rooks, but a few veterans are nice to have even if they won't all show a ton of improvement. They are better suited as part time players.

2006-07-18 22:45:37
60.   natepurcell
I am going to declare that Clayton Kershaw will be a Dodger ace by 2010.
2006-07-18 22:46:03
61.   JoeyP
I agree Mike.
Billingsley hasnt done anything yet in the majors to be like "Wow!". He hasnt had Verlander, Liriano, Johnson type of success yet. I'm not really concerned with the base runners bc with time pitchers can develop control. I'm more concerned with the low strikeout numbers. Most #1 type of guys have blow you away type of stuff. So far, Billingsley hasnt shown that at the MLB level. But, thats why he's so interesting to watch pitch. You're just waiting for that breakout game. I wouldnt consider tonite it though.
2006-07-18 22:46:10
62.   jujibee
60 - I second that.
2006-07-18 22:46:20
63.   Jon Weisman
"I'm actually surprised that you feel management should be given some sort of credit for not doing the dumbest thing possible (signing Aaron Boone, recalling Robles)."

I don't normally feel that way. I'm not saying you have to celebrate them making a rational decision.

I just think one could take a break from criticizing them.

You said in 1, "Must remember who is running the show now."

Have we been allowed to forget for five minutes who is running the show now, and that that person has flaws? That's the part that I'm calling relentless.

2006-07-18 22:46:50
64.   bobbygrich
And here, I thought everyone would be happy, Chad going 7, solid hits by Nomar, Drew, Aybar and Ethier, Baez having an effective inning, the word that Kemp and Guzman hit home runs tonight, LaRoche doubled and scored 3 runs, Repko going 4-4.

Guess I was wrong.

2006-07-18 22:48:05
65.   Steve
I thought I was a master non-sequitorian, but 32 is classic of the genre.
2006-07-18 22:50:23
66.   JoeyP
Ned and Grady were not here last year and there wasn't a lot of positives for them to go on.

How about just watching every game that Aybar played in last year in September? Thats a really weak excuse. Its not like they couldnt see tape of Aybar's ABs, or just look at the stat sheet to see how he did. You put up a .900 OPS over a month, doing it the way Aybar did it (lots of plate discipline), I think you should be given a shot. I just dont think management thinks much of Aybar. They were wanting to make him a utility player in spring training IIRC some of Gurnick's pieces.

If Aybar wasnt even considered by them for a spot on the 25, then thats just a mis-evaluation of in-house talent.

2006-07-18 22:56:27
67.   Greg Brock
Well, it's nice to see so much postitivity on the boards, especially after the kid throws a peach of a game. I suggest a "positivity only" thread, maybe on an off day, where people can only speak about the things the Dodgers are doing correctly.

Yes, I'm aware such a thread would only have 17 posts. Many of us are just plain tired of the nonsense.

2006-07-18 22:59:26
68.   Bob Timmermann
Apparently, the Dodgers have won 47 games this year entirely by dumb luck. If they had worse luck, they'd be the Pirates.
2006-07-18 23:00:25
69.   D4P
I just dont think management thinks much of Aybar

Particularly on defense.

2006-07-18 23:00:56
70.   Steve
Well, I've already bought the land in Cooperstown for the Martin/Aybar/Loney/Billingsley/Broxton/Kemp/LaRoche/Kershaw/Mattingly/Miller/Hu/Kuo/Young/Elbert/Orenduff/DeWitt/Morris (apologies if I left out your favorite) wing of the Hall of Fame, and even if every single one of them ends up in Kansas City, they're still going in with Dodger hats, because I put that clause in the deed to the land.

I still can't believe that I can come up with that many names of solid prospects in 90 seconds of work.

2006-07-18 23:03:47
71.   Eric L
I still can't believe that I can come up with that many names of solid prospects in 90 seconds of work.

And broke the page width while you were at it. So much talent, so little time...

2006-07-18 23:05:33
72.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm all for bringing up the rooks, but a few veterans are nice to have even if they won't all show a ton of improvement.

I'm assuming this was directed towards my post, if not sorry.

But anyways, a few veterans?, what do you call penny lowe drew kent nomar.
Selling some mediocre veterans like lofton izturis martinez cruz ledee and any other i mentioned in my post doesn't mean we won't have any veterans on the team.

Why not sell who is not in our future when we have replacements for them that will at least produce as good and probably better.

Heck we need power and most of the guys i listed don't produce any power and a couple do but not much.

2006-07-18 23:06:55
73.   Greg Brock
What do you guys want the Dodgers to do? Seriously, please tell me. The asking price for Soriano is Kemp and Billingsley. The going rate for middle relievers is Kearns and Lopez. Everybody thinks they're in the race, and nobody is selling. What, exactly do you guys want the Dodgers to do?

The Dodgers are playing with the roster they'll have in September, because the deadline has been killed by the wildcard (everybody thinks they're in it) and GM's want the moon for three month rentals. What does everybody want? What do you think the Dodgers can get? The team we have is the team we'll play with from here on out.

2006-07-18 23:08:27
74.   Steve
In 2002, that wouldn't have broken the page width.
2006-07-18 23:10:39
75.   MartinBillingsley31
What, exactly do you guys want the Dodgers to do?

Stand pat and sell some mediocre veterans like lofton izturis ect. i listed more earlier in the thread.
And bring up prospects to replace the mediocre veterans that were sold.

What the heck happened?, i have to slide the window back and forth to read the posts.

2006-07-18 23:11:07
76.   dzzrtRatt
63 Jon, it's pretty clear to me that comment 1 and its many follow-ups are not about Aybar, Billingsley, Martinez, or any other player. They're not even really about Ned Colletti. They are about Paul DePodesta, who was described here recently as a "great" GM.

I didn't think McCourt did the right thing firing DePodesta. But: He was nothing like a "great GM." He was deeply flawed. Maybe he would've "grown in office." But I don't think the Dodgers are really going to miss him all that much.

Colletti deserves to be evaluated on his own terms, and in the same patient way DePodesta's admirers wanted him to be evaluated, which as I recall would be for "at least three years." Colletti's moves also need to be seen for their results so far: Marginal improvement on the record of the terrible team he inherited.

It is irrational to be calling Colletti names like "stupid." It is disconnected from reality. But no matter what he does, there will be a small segment of Dodger fans who look at Colletti and only see Not-Paul. And they're never going to get over it.

2006-07-18 23:11:59
77.   bobbygrich
Penny, Lowe, Drew, Kent and Nomar are 2 starting pitchers and 3 everyday players.

Martinez, Cruz and Ledee are primarily bench players, Lofton has probably played more than they thought he would and Izzy has barely been back a month.

Ideally, they could get something for Izzy this year but if not, I see him dealt in the offseason, the other 4 are only signed through this year.

2006-07-18 23:12:40
78.   Andrew Shimmin
Not to derail this super interesting discussion, but, have any of you people quit smoking? How long does it take before you can think about anything except how much you want a cigarette?
2006-07-18 23:14:29
79.   D4P
73
Thus the importance of beginning the season with a good roster.
2006-07-18 23:15:40
80.   Steve
i have to slide the window back and forth to read the posts.

I messed it up with my long list of prospects.

It is disconnected from reality.

Trades with Tampa Bay are disconnected from reality. All else is merely red herring.

2006-07-18 23:16:17
81.   King of the Hobos
73 Pretty much the same thing MB said. I would probably deal Lofton first, as he's an injury risk at this point, and Repko can do just as good as Kenny with more power right now. Plus, to get prospects for Lofton as a FA, he would need to reject arbitration, which he would never do considering the salary he gets, so might as well get a B prospect for him now.

75 Steve didn't leave any spaces in his list in 70

2006-07-18 23:16:17
82.   JoeyP
76. Doesnt have to be DePo.
Dodgers could have hired Epstein, Josh Byrnes, anyone that actually thinks logically.

Its more tradition vs logic.

I favor logic.

2006-07-18 23:17:29
83.   Uncle Miltie
78- I'm glad you're quitting. I hate smoking.

Anyways, one of my friends quit about a year ago. You have to do things to take your mind off of cigarettes. My advice is exercise. You can do it with friends or alone. It also relieves stress (which makes smoking cigarettes pointless). Good luck.

2006-07-18 23:19:10
84.   D4P
78
Interesting tidbit from Al Gore's movie: his father was a tobacco farmer, and his older sister smoked from a young age. His father was unconvinced by the (cigarette-company thwarted) efforts of scientists to convince the world that tobacco led to serious health problems, until Al's sister died of lung cancer. Her death compelled her father to quit growing tobacco.

Al likened the efforts of cigarette companies to convince the public that tobacco was not harmless to current efforts of oil companies, etc. to convince the public that global warming is a hoax.

2006-07-18 23:20:00
85.   Greg Brock
Don't quit. Smoking is great, and satisfying. It also makes you look cool. I've smoke three cigarettes while I wrote this, and I feel wonderful. Just kidding, best of luck to you.
2006-07-18 23:20:26
86.   Steve
Really, though, it's not my list, it's Logan White's list. So when you curse the man who messed up the spacing on DT, spare a couple of extra expletives for our #@$)(#*# Scouting Director.
2006-07-18 23:20:42
87.   D4P
Will Andrew lose his "edge" if he quits smoking?
2006-07-18 23:21:42
88.   D4P
spare a couple of extra expletives for our #@$)(## Scouting Director

I don't have a swear to spare...

2006-07-18 23:22:20
89.   Greg Brock
The CDC says that 10% of smokers develop lung cancer. I'll take those odds.
2006-07-18 23:22:25
90.   LA Native
73

We wouldn't get much of anything for a backup like Martinez or a 39 year old with bad legs like Lofton. Since Martinez does not start, I assume you just mean that Kemp should be starting instead of Lofton. There is some argument to that. However, it was abundantly clear that Kemp needs to work on some things such as laying off the breaking ball in the dirt. Major league pitchers had really started to exploit his weaknesses after his hot start. He'll be back, but that doesn't mean that only a month and half above A ball is too little for him. He may rip up Vegas in the short term, but that doesn't mean he would be at the big league level right now. We are still in the pennant race, so we aren't at the point of just letting kids play for their development. They need to produce for them to stay at the major league level right now. Otherwise it is better for them to play every day in the minors until they are truly experienced and ready. Rushing guys is a risk and can screw a kid up. Some would argue Edwin Jackson would be an example of rushing a kid too early and he has never been the same.

2006-07-18 23:22:31
91.   Andrew Shimmin
82- They should have hired Eric Byrnes. He could have been a player/GM. That would be so awesome. He'd have traded Brad Penny to a Mexican League team for fireworks. I favor fireworks.
2006-07-18 23:22:54
92.   Steve
I wonder if ironic expletive symbols are within the rules.
2006-07-18 23:23:10
93.   bobbygrich
75 No one wants to buy those players when we have our prospects and it does not make sense for us to exchange our veterans for other veterans that don't upgrade the team.

76 I liked Paul and I like Ned, both have different beliefs but there is no one way to build a ballclub. To some extent, both of their teams have suffered injuries, two big differences for Ned, he had guys in the system to plug in and he seems to have a good relationship with Grady. I give Grady credit too, he was not afraid to move guys around in the pen, he played the young guys while they are here.

I can't comment on whetere there is a disgruntled non-Paul faction but I do think that for many of us (me included) it was exciting to think that perhaps some new methods were being used to put together a team but we never got to see it pan out. So, it was like we never got to see the new car and how it works, production was halted and we got a "baseball guy" back in charge, whose moves are generally pretty clear to understand but he does not come from an outside perspective.

And maybe that's it too, I know that I don't know how to scout a player, I do know how to look at numbers, and there was some belief that by looking at the numbers, you can get an understanding of that player was going to do and when the rug got pulled on that possibility and we were left with a baseball guy, I think that hurt a little bit because now we don't think there is anyone inside who looks at things that way.

Interesting take, but I am going to go watch the replay of Chad's first win.

2006-07-18 23:24:20
94.   JoeyP
73. Step1: Trade Lofton and Izturis. This is the Dave Roberts' principle. Just get them off the roster so Grits has the decision made for him as to who he should play.

Thats it. Sink or swim with the kids playing the final two months (Ethier, Kemp, Martin, Aybar), and Billingsley in the rotation.

2006-07-18 23:24:42
95.   Steve
TINSTAASWLC
2006-07-18 23:25:11
96.   D4P
The CDC says that 10% of smokers develop lung cancer.

And the rest died from other smoking-related infirmities before they got the chance...?

2006-07-18 23:29:08
97.   Greg Brock
96 Hey, don't become a schill for the anti-smoking lobby. Smoking makes you look cool, feels great, and keeps your weight down. Plus, it stimulates the economy. I'm a big fan.

Yes, my tongue is planted firmly in cheek. Calm down.

2006-07-18 23:32:59
98.   MartinBillingsley31
We wouldn't get much of anything for a backup like Martinez or a 39 year old with bad legs like Lofton.

I don't care what we get for the guys i listed.
Ned overdid it with the mediocre veterans and he needs to dump some to open roster spots for prospects that are ready.
Aybar probably gets sent down when kent returns.
Repko is coming back soon and who is going to get sent down for his return?, the only outfielder currently on the team that has options is ethier.
Loney is tearing up AAA but there is no room for him because no roster spots available, and yes he can play in leftfield.
So bringing up kemp is not necessarily my point.
My point is we have prospects ready and no roster spots for them because ned overdid it with mediocre veterans.
Anyone > lofton
Anyone > izturis
Anyone > martinez
Anyone > alomar (by the way why carry 3 catchers)

Repko and loney are ready, cut/trade a couple outfielders (lofton and either ledee or cruz).
Aybar is ready trade izturis.

2006-07-18 23:35:14
99.   dzzrtRatt
78 I quit back in the day, before patches. I tried five or six times before I was successful. By the time I finally did it, I was so ready, I didn't think about cigarettes anymore within days.

The addiction to nicotine is broken in two days. The rest is all habit, environment, and psychological factors that we should probably not discuss on DT.

I ate a lot of carrots. I chewed a lot of gum, till my jaws were sore. After about three months, I didn't need those things anymore. Also, since I associated smoking with drinking, I cut way down on my drinking, and never went back up. I was hardly drinking at all...until JoeyP came into my life....

2006-07-18 23:38:33
100.   Eric L
78 I quit smoking back in November. Hopefully the third time is the charm. I still want a cig from time to time. Oddly enough, I'm over the drinking beer and smoking thing.

I miss it more after I'm doing some yardwork or housework. I sort of used to "reward" myself by having a cig after say, I'd get done mopping the floor or putting away the dishes.

I've pretty much decided that I am always going to want to smoke. I just have to resist the temptation. That and reminding myself that cigs did actually taste like they smell.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-18 23:41:38
101.   MartinBillingsley31
No one wants to buy those players when we have our prospects and it does not make sense for us to exchange our veterans for other veterans that don't upgrade the team.

Just open some roster spots for prospects that are ready.
Just get some minor leaguers in return, it doesn't matter what we get in return.
Roster spots need to be opened for prospects that are ready.

2006-07-18 23:43:56
102.   LA Native
I wouldn't mind trading Izturis, although I think we won't get value unless a shortstop on a team in a pennant race goes down. I think either Ledee or Cruz will get cut or traded when Repko is ready with the possibility that Alomar is put on the DL until the rosters expand. Ethier won't get sent down hitting 330 plus in the majors. Not sure if Loney is ready to play outfield in the majors and even if he is, he won't have anywhere to play without either bumping Eithier or Drew. Just because Loney has played a few games in left in Vegas doesn't mean he is major league ready in the outfield. He has quite a few errors in Vegas. Still don't understand getting rid of Martinez. If you get rid of Izturis, who is your backup shortstop? I think having a utility infielder that is hitting 320 is nice. Finally, sending down Aybar was a good choice at the time. He even struggled in Vegas before finding his stroke again just recently.
2006-07-18 23:46:09
103.   Steve
Why have we not discussed Sickles, Nate? What do you think he has to say about JtD?
2006-07-18 23:48:11
104.   Eric L
Why not just stand pat unless a Brad Penny like trade comes down the pike?
2006-07-18 23:49:01
105.   JoeyP
If you get rid of Izturis, who is your backup shortstop?

Those of us at the acceptance stage dont really find the answer to be of relevance.

2006-07-18 23:49:51
106.   fanerman
78 - If you're trying to quit, good luck man.

It's nice to see Chad pitch a good game. I'm sure most of us figured we'd see one sooner or later, but it's a bit of relief to actually know it's done. May he have many, many, many more.

2006-07-18 23:50:45
107.   Andrew Shimmin
Thanks everybody. Well, not so much Miltie. Or D4P, come to think of it. Of course Brock was of no help at all. So I only thank dzzrtRatt and Eric L.
2006-07-18 23:51:40
108.   Andrew Shimmin
And fanerman, too. Thanks fanerman.
2006-07-18 23:51:49
109.   King of the Hobos
102 The NL Wildcard leader is starting Royce Clayton, so i have to believe there's some market for Izzy. The Mets are starting Jose Valentin, Robinson Cano is still having trouble beginning a rehab, the Blue Jays want to improve their infield defense, etc. I may be crazy, but I think there may actually be a market for Izzy.
2006-07-18 23:52:20
110.   natepurcell
Why have we not discussed Sickles, Nate? What do you think he has to say about JtD?

Like most people, he is probably disapointed in JtD's performance this year. But he still has 2 months or so left to lift his numbers up.

2006-07-18 23:53:29
111.   MartinBillingsley31
102

If ned doesn't want to cut/trade a mediocre veteran then ethier will get sent down because he's the only outfielder with options.
Bringing up loney in my opinion gives your outfielders plenty of days off and gives nomar some days off.

sending down Aybar was a good choice at the time. He even struggled in Vegas before finding his stroke again just recently.

It was a slump everyone goes thru a slump.

2006-07-18 23:57:04
112.   Steve
Guzman is disappointing, but there is disappointment and then there is Baezpointment. If you look at the list, there are no serious problems from about 1-18. Loney, now hitting .628 in Vegas, is #13 on the list. We have several guys not on the list that could be on the list. For most of those teams, you get to about name 6 and you go, who?
2006-07-18 23:58:07
113.   Steve
By the way, I would have added Logan White to the hall of fame wing as an executive, but I didn't want to mess up the spacing on the site.
2006-07-19 00:00:10
114.   natepurcell
112

I agree. We have really solid depth all the way down to 30-35 or so.

I posted this in that thread, ill post it here.

next years top 20

graduations
Billingsley
martin
broxton
ethier
kemp

players who shouldnt be on next years top 20
denker
raglani
wall

new additions to next years top 20
Clayton Kershaw
Preston Mattingly
Bryan Morris
Ivan Dejesus
Mark Alexander
sergio pedroza
Josh Bell
Steven Johnson

2006-07-19 00:02:51
115.   Tom Meagher
Can anyone explain why I often find references to 'stashing' Alomar on the DL in DT comments? AFAIK, one has to have an actual injury to be put on the DL (this is somewhat strictly enforced, and I can't think of any memorable cases of a faked injury clearing a roster spot), and nearing 40 is not per se an injury. It's also harder to get injured when one doesn't play; will Alomar come down with an injury in BP? Does he even take BP? Or is there some common knowledge nagging injury he has that I simply missed the memo on?
2006-07-19 00:03:02
116.   LA Native
109

Fair enough. Lets see if Ned will pull the trigger on a deal for him if he can get value. Sometimes it is good to be a seller. I just think Izzy at third is wrong.

2006-07-19 00:05:31
117.   LA Native
115

There is also the alternative of making Alomar a coach and then activating him again once the rosters expand, similar to Manny Mota in the early 80's.

2006-07-19 00:09:21
118.   Eric L
117 Wouldn't he have to go through waivers to be removed from the 40 man roster? He probably won't be claimed, but ya never know.

Does MLB have strict rules about a guy retiring and then returning within the same season?

2006-07-19 00:09:59
119.   Jon Weisman
115 - They have been saying publicly that Alomar has sore knees - now, that may be phony, but they've been laying the groundwork, and the fact is he has spent almost no time behind the plate in the past month or so.

It may not be a serious injury, but I don't think there's an issue of getting a legit medical diagnosis that he needs to rest for two weeks.

2006-07-19 00:12:12
120.   LA Native
118

You may be right on the waiver thing. I'm not sure. I'd rather see Hall get traded to solve the whole problem. Alomar was fine as a backup before. Not sure why we need an obviously unhappy Hall now.

2006-07-19 00:12:16
121.   King of the Hobos
114 Why would Wall be dumped? He hasn't been too impressive, but are 32 mediocre innings in a hitters league enough to push a 19 year old off the list? Also, wouldn't Jesus Castillo have a decent chance at making the top 20? Or is he too old?

And Raglani is batting .345/.424/.586 in 29 ABs during his return to AA.

2006-07-19 00:12:38
122.   Jon Weisman
http://tinyurl.com/zm25m

Gurnick: "With Russell Martin solidly the regular behind the plate, an unhappy Toby Hall would probably remain active, while veteran Sandy Alomar Jr. could qualify for the disabled list due to the fragile condition of his knees."

2006-07-19 00:13:39
123.   StolenMonkey86
98 - Anyone>izturis?

I want you to stand up and say that you think that Rafael Furcal is an excellent defensive shortstop. Once you realize you're not that good a liar, stand up and say that defense does not matter. Finally, remind yourself that Paul Depodesta actually thought that Jose Valentin would be a good third baseman, and smack your forehead and proclaim "what an idiot!"

Izturis is 26, he's a top-notch defensive player, and constantly improving at the plate. But, we have Furcal, which really just makes Izturis seem more valuable.

I think the best thing to do from here on out is to go with a 5 man infield rotation of Nomar, Kent, Izturis, Aybar, and Furcal, so everyone gets an off day every 5th day. Every one of those players can be useful off the bench, and this would keep them fresh enough so that Olmedo Saenz can stick to being a pinch hitter with runners on late in the game, where he's the most effective.

2006-07-19 00:15:10
124.   natepurcell
from robothal's newest...

Many baseball people believe that A's left-hander Barry Zito will sign with the Dodgers or one of the New York teams as a free agent, reasoning that Zito's passion for music would only increase the appeal of those markets.

Fine by me, ante up!

2006-07-19 00:16:17
125.   LA Native
119

Imagine -- sore knees for someone who has caught for over 20 years in pro ball! It sounds totally made up, but maybe they can get away with it. I don't even remember the last time Alomar played. I think it has been almost 2 weeks anyway, but I suppose that is beside the point as long as they can get away with it. Finally, I doubt if Alomar would agree to the Coach thing even in the short term as he thinks he can still play in the big leagues, which I wouldn't argue with. I think he still contributes.

2006-07-19 00:18:09
126.   StolenMonkey86
124 - What makes me excited about this is that Sandy Koufax stops by Spring Training. I would buy a DVD of Sandy Koufax and Barry Zito on how to throw a curveball.
2006-07-19 00:20:06
127.   natepurcell
121

Wall is an interesting case to me because with him, its all about projection. He is suppose to fill out and gain velocity but until then I can't really rate him in the top 20 with our farm system. While his era is good right now, his component ratios leave a lot to be desired for.

Jesus Castillo could push himself on the list but he is 22 and still in Odgen. He is also coming back from TJ and is still a health risk because of that. I would like to see another strong year from him next year, possibly ending up at AA by the end of 2007.

Raglani IMO was overrated last year, I didn't view him as a top 20 talent in our farm really. But if he rips it up in his second AA stint then good for him, I will have to re-evaluate my stance on him.

2006-07-19 00:21:49
128.   Eric L
Finally, remind yourself that Paul Depodesta actually thought that Jose Valentin would be a good third baseman, and smack your forehead and proclaim "what an idiot!"

I'm not going to say that Valentin was a good 3rd baseman, but I'm not going to say he was horrible either. Any evaluation of him either way is based on 216 innings of total play at 3B last year.

To put it in perspective, he who shall not be spoken at DT played 664 innings at 1B last year. Shoot, Jason Werth played 345 innings in LF last year.

2006-07-19 00:22:57
129.   StolenMonkey86
Saito, Beimel, Broxton, Tomko, Baez, Perez, Carrara

someone's gotta go eventually . . .

2006-07-19 00:23:03
130.   MartinBillingsley31
I want you to stand up and say that you think that Rafael Furcal is an excellent defensive shortstop. Once you realize you're not that good a liar, stand up and say that defense does not matter.

Defense doesn't concern me.
Strong offense is more important than strong defense by far, but it would be nice to have both.

Izturis is constantly improving at the plate.

No he isn't.

2006-07-19 00:23:45
131.   StolenMonkey86
129 - and it won't be Saito or Broxton, probably not Tomko either (who I will say is an impressive artist)
2006-07-19 00:25:09
132.   Eric L
128 Shoot, Jason Werth played 345 innings in LF last year.

Oops, that would be Jayson Werth.

2006-07-19 00:27:12
133.   Uncle Miltie
Straight from Depo Hater's pen
Meanwhile, Dodgers scouting director Logan White said negotiations have reached an irreconcilable impasse with 10th-round pick Andy D'Alessio, and that the first baseman is expected to return to Clemson University for his senior season.
Sorry nate
2006-07-19 00:28:32
134.   LA Native
128

That un-named 1st baseman is only hitting 207 in well over 250 plate appearances in AAA. I was shocked at how bad he is doing down there. I had no idea.

2006-07-19 00:28:44
135.   natepurcell
133

Yea ive come to terms with that for a while now. Not really a huge loss IMO. Hopefully we can ink one of Akins or Alex White. Those two are the late round prizes.

2006-07-19 00:31:28
136.   natepurcell
and a section on the dodgers from rosenthal
------------------------------
The Dodgers' biggest need is pitching, but the team isn't ruling out a move to improve its offense, especially now that second baseman Jeff Kent is on the disabled list with a sore muscle on his left side.

The Dodgers inquired about Royals right fielder Reggie Sanders, but the team's interest has faded "big-time," according to a source.

Nationals left fielder Alfonso Soriano is a more logical target; the Dodgers would need a better hitter than Sanders to justify benching left fielder Andre Ethier and his .340 batting average. But paying a high price for Soriano would limit the Dodgers in other pursuits.

The injury to Kent should only increase the Dodgers' reluctance to trade infielder Cesar Izturis, who has filled in at third base and temporarily could move to second. The Dodgers, however, are deep enough in prospects to make multiple moves.
--------------------------------

2006-07-19 00:31:41
137.   StolenMonkey86
128 - First of all, he lost a ball in the chalk. And in those 216 innings, he made 7 errors, making Olmedo Saenz look like the second coming of Ozzie Smith. He didn't go back to third because he was a nightmare defensively.

And if you want to talk about his offense, he had a .170/.326/.265 batting line.

2006-07-19 00:32:38
138.   Tom Meagher
119, 122 - Thanks Jon, hadn't read that before. At this point they could retro-DL him to 15 days ago, if I'm not mistaken.

123 -
"remind yourself that Paul Depodesta actually thought that Jose Valentin would be a good third baseman, and smack your forehead and proclaim 'what an idiot!'"

What is this even supposed to mean? Valentin was injured last season and played only a little bit. This season he's playing excellently for NYM. Is this a quip about his defense, or what? I don't think your subjective appraisal of his defense in fewer than 30 games counts for a lot, and certainly doesn't justify a "what an idiot!" remark. Valentin was, by nearly all statistical metrics, one of the best defensive shortstops in the game while in Chicago, and I know of know convincing evidence that he couldn't have been an excellent 3B given sufficient playing time.

2006-07-19 00:33:28
139.   Andrew Shimmin
2005 Valentin: 147AB .170/.326/.265 2FRAR
2006 Valentin: 197AB .284/.325/.528 17FRAR

Clearly, DePo is an idiot, and Minaya is a genius.

2006-07-19 00:33:50
140.   King of the Hobos
135 Any updates on either of them?
2006-07-19 00:34:49
141.   StolenMonkey86
138 - By your logic, Edgar Renteria was a gold glover in 2002 and 2003, so the Red Sox didn't have anything to complain about last year.
2006-07-19 00:35:04
142.   MartinBillingsley31
the Dodgers would need a better hitter than Sanders to justify benching left fielder Andre Ethier and his .340 batting average.

If that is true, then that is proof positive that the dodgers management is in love with lofton.
I just don't get it, and apparently never will.

2006-07-19 00:37:12
143.   LA Native
142

With Sanders, Ethier, and Drew, no one would be able to play centerfield then, except possibly Drew who is really too slow to cover center well.

2006-07-19 00:37:46
144.   bhsportsguy
140 I have not seen much, I think we will have to wait closer to their enrollment dates, to see what happens.
2006-07-19 00:38:19
145.   trainwreck
136
I am just going to assume Rosenthal is wrong.
2006-07-19 00:38:56
146.   Andrew Shimmin
There's no logic by which Edgar Renteria was a gold glover. Ever.
2006-07-19 00:39:48
147.   MartinBillingsley31
With Sanders, Ethier, and Drew, no one would be able to play centerfield then, except possibly Drew who is really too slow to cover center well.

That's an example of worrying about defense so much that you subtract offense for it.
I don't subscribe to that philosophy.

2006-07-19 00:41:23
148.   Tom Meagher
137 - Sure, he committed errors. However, committing more errors often results from having greater range and reaching more balls; committing an error on a routine play is problematic, but an error is not per se a negative. Moreover, there is a learning curve to an unfamiliar position, and one would expect that as his familiarity increased his defense would improve.

And while his offense was lackluster last season, that sample is limited and doesn't account for injury. Arguing simply that he was 'done' flies in the face of his excellent 2006, and if the argument is that DePodesta should have realized that Valentin was set to slump in 2005 only to rebound in 2006, you may be holding reality to an inappropriate standard.

2006-07-19 00:43:31
149.   Eric L
141 I just repeat what Tom said... What's that supposed to mean and what does it have to do with Valentin?

Renteria signed a huge contract with Boston and played the same position he had for his entire career (save 1 game at DH and 1 game at 1st). He was healthy the entire season. And he was essentially the same offensive player that he was in '04. It looks like he played worse in the field.

Valentin signed a small 1 year contract and moved positions. He was hurt and played very few innings at the position.

I really have no idea what bringing up Renteria and Valentin have to do with each other except that they switched teams and they were both shortstops the prior season.

2006-07-19 00:43:51
150.   King of the Hobos
143 Would Drew really be any worse than Lofton?

144 Ok, thanks. Scott Van Slyke was signed on July 16th last year, and I believe he was in a somewhat similar situation (Steve Johnson too, but I'm not sure when he signed).

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-19 00:45:10
151.   JoeyP
By your logic, Edgar Renteria was a gold glover in 2002 and 2003, so the Red Sox didn't have anything to complain about last year.

Actually the Red Sox did, bc Renteria played the whole season there.

Judging Valentin on a few games as a Dodger just screams out "sample size".....

Will you remember Bill Mueller as a horrible defensive 3rd basemen, and proclaim Ned Colletti "what an idiot", for his poor peformance at 3rd?

Mueller's Rate2- 93
Valentin's Rate2- 91

Not much of a difference, both below average, but both didnt play enough games to label each other as ineffective. They both had good defensive careers as Tom pointed out.

It doesnt really matter if Izturis is improving with his bat. He's started out so poorly, he's entering his most prime years, and he's still not a 3rd base caliber bat. He's not even a SS or 2nd base caliber bat.

Why would Rosenthal suggest the Dodgers acquire Soriano, if they are only going to bench Ethier? That makes little sense. If someone's benched, its gotta be The Hole.

2006-07-19 00:45:39
152.   StolenMonkey86
146 - Glancing again at his fielding stats, that's definitely correct.
2006-07-19 00:47:36
153.   MartinBillingsley31
The Hole.

Kenny "the hole" lofton.
LOL!

2006-07-19 00:47:45
154.   JoeyP
139. That flies in my theory that Valentin was just a juicer before 2004. Apparently, 2005 he wasnt done but just hurt.
2006-07-19 00:48:29
155.   LA Native
150

Maybe Drew's defense wouldn't be any worse than Lofton's in center. However, would Sanders be any better than Lofton on offense? Lofton has the higher OPS this year not to mention that he has stolen 16 out of 17.

2006-07-19 00:53:33
156.   MartinBillingsley31
I hope all these rumors are just flat out not true, because this team needs more than 1 addition to win the world series and logan's prospects are sizzling hot, too hot to trade.
2006-07-19 00:54:06
157.   JoeyP
I'd rather pass on Reggie Sanders, and just let Kemp develop at the MLB level these final two months, if those are the choices.

Sanders wont make a difference.

2006-07-19 01:00:10
158.   StolenMonkey86
151 - The "what an idiot" was intended to be more self directed, thus the slapping of your own forehead. I think a lot of people are giving Depodesta a little too much credit.

I will concede that a lot of this is emotional, particularly with Valentin immediately replacing Beltre (who was a plus defensive player, peaking in that even, in 2004). I also admit that based on the fact that he hit 30 homers the year before, and put up similar numbers for years before that, he looked like a good power option. I can't help but wonder if the guy who's regular playing time Valentin took over, Kaz Matsui, was an easier act to follow. I did take satisfaction in watching him make 2 errors in a game against the Dodgers when the Mets were in town, though.

What I will stand by, though, is my idea from the last line of 123, going with a rotation of Nomar, Kent, Furcal, Izturis, Aybar, with everyone sitting 1 out of every 5 days. Aybar's the only guy who's not an injury issue, but pinch-hitting is part of the game, and he could probably benefit from developing in that regard.

2006-07-19 01:02:25
159.   trainwreck
Well Stark says we have no interest in Soriano so one of these guys is wrong. I don't like Rosenthal so I am just going to assume he is wrong.
2006-07-19 01:02:49
160.   natepurcell
Does everyone realize that all 5 of our current starting pitchers have era's under 4?

penny 3.26
sele 3.34
hendrickson 3.57
billingsley 3.66
lowe 3.98

2006-07-19 01:05:07
161.   trainwreck
Proof ERA is overrated, because Lowe is not our worst starter lol.
2006-07-19 01:07:27
162.   natepurcell
161

Lowe's been pitching terrible lately. Hopefully he can turn it around.

2006-07-19 01:09:33
163.   StolenMonkey86
ERA will tell you if someone is really really good, or really really awful. Under 3, good. Over 5, blah. Over 6, yikes. Over 8, Scott Erickson, Hideo Nomo, Odalis Perez (as a starter).
2006-07-19 01:12:00
164.   StolenMonkey86
162 - He's felt uncomfortable with his sinkerball grip, and has been throwing side sessions daily since his last start.
2006-07-19 01:14:57
165.   trainwreck
Lowe is 15 walks away from matching his total for all of last season.

Yet, he is still 35th in VORP.

2006-07-19 01:35:08
166.   bhsportsguy
I actually something interesting from Kevin Kennedy, he said that Rick Honeycutt teaches the cutter, which is what Chad said he was working on, it also is a pitch that I think Derek has tried to throw but it has screwed up his feel for the sinker. Should be interesting to see what he does tomorrow.
2006-07-19 01:50:15
167.   StolenMonkey86
Yeah, Lowe threw a lot when he went seven scoreless against Anaheim.
2006-07-19 03:23:52
168.   Greg Brock
I'm not worried about Lowe. I'm more worried about the fact that we don't hit the ball out of the yard. Home runs matter. From SABRmetricians to "old school" people, home runs matter. And we don't hit enough. Izzy at third? What a joke. Loney playing LF in the minors? Come on. Nomar playing first for now (and the foreseeable future), gadzooks. You have to be able to send the ball in the seats, and we don't do that. Go ahead, flame away. But every good team is predicated on power, and we don't have any. NONE.
2006-07-19 06:41:28
169.   Sam DC
For Nate

And this is true. I bolt awake at 5 am today from the most bizarre dream. Wife and I are at some AppleChiliFriday's type place down in Florida (wierd enough, we don't end up in such places or w/out kids very much). We're eating at a table. Host is calling people off a waiting list to be seated. "Kershaw." Tall guy with a couple of superbeautiful girls goes up. I hear girl #1 call him Clay. Tell my wife, "hey that guy pitches for the Dodgers." So I go up to him and introduce myself and say something like, "I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I'd really like to get your autograph for a guy I know who's your biggest fan." Can't dreamember the exact words. He starts signing a piece of paper and I say thanks, it's for Nate Purcell.

And he says "Dude -- that's my agent."

Anyhow, you'll be shocked to hear that my wife suggests I may be spending a little too much time on the internet.

2006-07-19 06:58:36
170.   Daniel Zappala
Sam, that's hilarious. Yes, you need a self-imposed exile from Dodger Thoughts for a few weeks!
2006-07-19 07:57:39
171.   Marty
I'm getting in late, but congratulations Andrew on you're wanting to quit smoking. You have to REALLY want to quit to be succesful. It's been 26 years 5 months for me. Yes, I actually remember the date I quit, 2/26/1980. There was this place back then called the Schick Center for Quitting Smoking. It used negative reenforcement techniques. It was $600 for a five-day program which was a ton of money for me back then, but it was worth it. My last cigarette was on the second day of the program and I had been a 3 pack a day smoker. The first two weeks were the hardest since I was actually a little disoriented as the addiction broke. I was told to try as much as possible to deviate from any routine I had that included smoking, so don't sit up in bed and think about the smoke you would normally be having. Don't eat at the same times, don't hang around the table after eating, etc. Don't be around smokers for a few weeks if possible. After the first couple weeks, I was fine. Also, concentrate on how good you feel for quitting. I had a typical smoker's cough that dissapeared the day I quit. Any time I caught a cold, it would develop into bronchitis. I haven't had that since I quit.

Again, good luck with it.

2006-07-19 08:09:05
172.   DodgerBakers
We may have been the only Dodger Thoughts readers to be there in person for Billingsley's first career win. It was a great game to watch.

Our observations:
1. Billingsley looked very smooth, didn't let things get to him, and pitched great. My wife was rather angry they didn't leave him in to either finish it or prove he had nothing left. His 103 and last pitch was still 95 mph (about the top of where he was all night) and struck out 2. We were dissappointed to see Ricky Ledee come in to pinch hit--grounding into a double play to squelch a rally. We were even more dissappointed to see Danys Baez come in to pitch.

2. Baez made us uncomfortable. Sure on paper it looked good, no runs and a K, but his motion is halting and it just made us nervous.

3. Lofton looked hurt. He didn't want to run out the double that he got, but did it anyway. Otherwise, he limped around.

4. Willy Aybar was great, 2 doubles and an RBI. It will be fun to watch him develop. Really, all the young players will be great to watch and did well.

2006-07-19 09:08:25
173.   underdog
Was Jon listening to Peter Frampton when he wrote the headline up there?

Does anyone know if the Dodgers are listed as one of the possible suitors for Kevin Mench? I think if the Dodgers are going to acquire another bat, it would be along the lines of a good player that isn't a star (and isn't that old) in which they'd have to give up something good for, but not give up the farm for. Mench, or our dream guy from yesterday, Casey Blake...
Meanwhile, I wonder if they may just end up not acquiring any starting pitching just because the pickings are so slim, and try to fix things from within and from the farm? (Or give up.)

Unless Maddux wants to come here, and the Cubs stop asking for the moon for him.

Even more importantly... I need to get to work.

2006-07-19 09:11:05
174.   D4P
Was Jon listening to Peter Frampton when he wrote the headline up there?

I was thinking of Franklin Delano Bluth, as in "Franklin Comes Alive."

"It ain't easy bein' white"
"It ain't easy bein' brown"
"All this pressure to be right"
"I got children all over town"

(Hey: where'd the guy go?)

2006-07-19 09:12:32
175.   Jon Weisman
I can remember being in grade school at the height of Frampton's coming alive. I never got into him. But I definitely remember the craze. I'm sure the AD guys do, too.
2006-07-19 09:14:19
176.   Eric L
171 Wow, 3 packs a day. That is a heck of an accomplishment. I've always wondered, how does one smoke 3 packs a day? Do you constantly have chain smoke?

I was on a pack a day (literally one pack every 24 hours) and it seemed like I smoked a ton.

Anyhow, I'll second the "don't hang around smokers" thing for a while. My bro and I quit at the same time. Neither of us were able to sabotage the other one. There was no easy outlet to get "just one".

2006-07-19 09:15:08
177.   bobbygrich
I saw where some folks asked about Alex White, here is a note from a report of an American Legion game he played last week.

The visiting Post 39 had well-rested ace Alex White ready to roll, and he was all business as White and his team struck early and steadfastly held on for a 9-4 win, eliminating neighboring Post 160 to advance in the playoffs.

White almost perfectly hit his target number of 110 pitches, and most of those pitches were hitting their targets as well. White dealt out 12 strikeouts and threw almost exclusively fastballs in the latter stages of his seven-inning outing, in which he issued just one walk.

"Alex was Alex," said Post 39 assistant coach Rodney Harris, who has filled in for coach Mike Mullis this week after Mullis left to be with his ailing mother in Atlanta. "He went out and did his thing, threw the ball hard and stayed around the strike zone all night. That's doing the job."

He also can hit (as most high school pitchers can do) My hunch is that it will take a nice sized signing bonus but I am sure that Logan White and the rest of the scouting staff is on it.

2006-07-19 09:47:59
178.   Jon Weisman
133 - From June 30:

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/419522.html

2006-07-19 09:52:04
179.   blue22
With all the negativity in here, dare I say we need a little pep talk from BlueTahoe?

I LOVE THIS TEAM!

2006-07-19 09:56:34
180.   blue22
Any word on Kyle Orr? Google knows nothing...
2006-07-19 10:00:36
181.   Jon Weisman
180 - Today's Daily News

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_4068049

First baseman Kyle Orr, the Dodgers' fourth-round draft pick, will spend the next few weeks preparing for and playing in the World Junior Championship tournament in Cuba, where he will suit up for Team Canada.

That will put negotiations on hold until after the event ends Sept. 27. It probably also means that when Orr does sign, he won't play until next season.

2006-07-19 10:06:39
182.   Humma Kavula
181 "when Orr does sign"

Not if, but when? Is this merely poor word choice, or is it all but a done deal?

2006-07-19 10:08:14
183.   blue22
181 - Thanks - that's encouraging, I guess.

I thought there was a little more doubt as to if he would sign.

2006-07-19 10:43:02
184.   Sam DC
Old friend Cody Ross homers v. the Nationals.

Unless I just dreamed it.

2006-07-19 10:46:05
185.   njr
I have to admit when Jon first wrote his post about being less negative I thought it was a little bit of an overreaction. This board had been a safe haven for supporters of Depodesta in an otherwise hostile environment. Depo seemed like an ally and at times even a DT friend. When he was unjustly (in my opinion) fired it makes sense that people here would be overly critical of his replacement. It's like if your sibling breaks up with a significant other who you really like: there's very little chance you'll be welcoming to the replacement.

That said, more and more I'm starting to agree that this board has becoming overly negative and caustic. It was sad to me that it was grating to read through the comments today. Not just because of overly hashed out arguments ala Choi but more because of the sarcasm and lack of constructive input. I agree that to make only positive comments would be silly, and that some of the best humor around here is biting. But just as we would ask the LA media to be more measured in their evaluations of Depodesta and many of the players we favor we must do the same. I'm as guilty as anyone of ragging on Colletti and honestly I don't think I'll completely exhale until after the 31st. But until he actually makes a bad move that seriously cripples our team we should cut back on our vitriol and try to appreciate a really good night for the Dodgers. I know I'm just rehashing but I thought I'd add my vote to Jon's camp.

2006-07-19 10:54:42
186.   Penarol1916
181. Isn't it a bit odd that the world junior championships would end after school starts? Will Orr even get a chance to enroll in college if he's stuck at the championships?
2006-07-19 11:02:38
187.   bobbygrich
185 Here is a repeat performance (with some added comments) but I think it expresses that same sentiment.

When Paul Depodesta was hired, he was the flavor of the month, I had about him from Baseball Prospectus and it was exciting to think that perhaps some new methods were going to be used to put together a team.

Now the 2004 team was pretty much set when he got here but he made some small deals and you could see that some of the philosophies of OBP, power and pitching were being considered, one big thing that happened just as he got here was the arbitration hearing for Gagne, this is where Bill P. and Simers got off on him but it wasn't like he was runnnig, though it was known at that time that there was a belief that SABR guys don't want to pay big bucks for closers.

Even with the division title in 2004, there was some excitement going into the off-season because this was when the true makeover was to begin, however but again PR wise, Finley, Lima, Cora, and Beltre were let it go and then perhaps Paul tried to do what Ned did this year, get some fill in guys while we wait for the prospects.

Due to injuries and lack of playing time for certain players, we never got to see it pan out.

When he got rid of Tracy, there was a thought that okay, he will bring in his guy and then we will see what happens, but no, weeks later, Paul was gone too.

In the end, it was like we never got to see the new car and how it works, production was halted and we got a "baseball guy" back in charge, whose moves are generally pretty clear to understand but he does not come from an outside perspective.

And maybe that's it too, I know that I don't know how to scout a player, I do know how to look at numbers, and there was some belief that by looking at the numbers, you can get an understanding of that player was going to do and when the rug got pulled on that possibility and we were left with a baseball guy, I think that hurt a little bit because now we don't think there is anyone inside who looks at things that way.

2006-07-19 11:31:12
188.   Bluebleeder87
185,187 good read from both.
2006-07-19 11:44:28
189.   thinkingblue
I sure hope we don't get a starter. We need a power bat more, and there's no reason to trade for Zito, and when we can get him in the offseason.

Plus, our starters are good now, we'd need a reliever more.

2006-07-19 12:30:08
190.   RunninRebel
172
Glad to hear other DT readers were at Chad's 1st win. I didn't realize how good he was throwing until I looked up at the scoreboard in the fifth and realized he was under 80 pitches. After giving up those first two hits I was afraid it would be a long ride home since I went to the game with 3 Snakes fans. Anyway, the Snakes fans I was with were sure the game was over in the 8th and I had to remind them Baez was coming in so no win was secured. However, he looked pretty good last night - agressive, not falling behind to hitters.

Probably going tomorrow night as well and hoping for more of the same but not expecting much with Webb facing Hendrickson.

2006-07-19 13:08:57
191.   Andrew Shimmin
Thanks Marty.
2006-07-19 17:52:20
192.   dsfan
56, 76, 123 --

Excellent posts.

2006-07-19 18:28:21
193.   dsfan
My sense from reading Jon's main post and those of a few others is that Aybar was done something of a disservice when the club demoted him in June to open a spot for Izturis.

The gist appears to be that being so young worked against Aybar, that a "veteran" would have been allowed "to work his way out of a slump."

My view is that Aybar, someone I've followed for some time, was done a favor when he was demoted, because further playing time in the majors would have deepened his pain and made a "cure" all the more difficult down the road.

My definition of "cratering" is a brutal downturn that will continue unless the player -- usually a young player -- is given a significant respite. In Aybar's case, the best repsite was a demotion that would allow him to assimilate what he's gone through and piece himself back together in a less pressurized setting.

Pitchers, belatedly, had figured out that Aybar had a good grip of the strikezone and had gotten around to attacking him, as it turned out, with impunity. Evaulating the ABs, Willy was unable to counter in a meaningful way. His confidence appeared to wane, his swing got longer. His ability to draw walks, a core skill, was greatly eroded. Against lefties, he was utterly at their mercy, just hoping to serve the ball into play. His defense may have suffered for it as well.

In 12 games with Vegas after his demotion Willy went 6-for-44 (two homers) and posted a .240 OBP. He came back with 2-3 pretty good games before his recall.

My belief is he needed to become more of a threat early in the count, because when he got back to the majors, teams would come after him.

It's encouraging that Aybar punished the Diamondbacks right out the chute. If it he did so early in the count, it dovetails with his need to become more of threat. Too early to know if he made an adjustment that had to be made. One reason I've been bullish on him is the broad skill set and ability to adjust he showed in the minors -- he's not always rapid about it, but he's usually found his way.
The bigger point here is the Dodgers gave him the best opportunity to succeed when they sent him down for Izzy.

2006-07-19 20:06:02
194.   Andrew Shimmin
193- There's no way to argue with your Vegas Vacation theory, but there's no reason that I can see to adopt it, either. It seems like if the cure for his sort of cratering is two weeks in AAA, then it probably wasn't that bad to begin with. And I don't for so much as one second buy that they brought him back up because he had a couple of good games in a row. If Kent doesn't go down, Aybar is still in AAA.

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