Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

4 + 1 = 7
2006-12-17 18:44
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The Dodgers' four-homer-plus-one comeback against the Padres in September ranked seventh on the Time Magazine Top 10 sports moments of the year.

Kobe's 81 was fifth. What gets top billing from you for moments involving Los Angeles teams? The 4+1, Kobe, UCLA's March Madness comeback against Gonzaga, or something else?

* * *

Now at Screen Jam: a look back at the courtship of Jerry Seinfeld.

Comments (144)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-12-17 18:55:44
1.   4444
ucla/gonzaga is the only thing on my tivo tagged "Keep until I delete."
2006-12-17 18:59:36
2.   Marty
USC/Texas in the BCS. Unfortunately, my team was on the wrong side.
2006-12-17 19:13:26
3.   xaphor
The first two minutes of the England v. Paraguay match. It was all downhill from there.
2006-12-17 19:16:04
4.   Eric Enders
I'm not sure whether I'd pick the 4+1 or the Rose Bowl, but those were my two favorite sports moments not only of this year, but of the past several years.
2006-12-17 19:18:27
5.   Marty
Eric's team was on the right side.
2006-12-17 19:22:41
6.   das411
This is just this year Jon? Because I can remember one awesomely memorable moment that might be called 12 + 7 = 2...or = 0-3?
2006-12-17 19:27:51
7.   Jon Weisman
6 - Um, for the sake of argument, yeah, this year. But I'm lost on your calculus anyway.
2006-12-17 19:50:07
8.   popup
The comeback win against the Padres. I am an XM subscriber and I taped that game from my home while I was out visiting my Mom that night. When I returned home the Padres were batting in the top of the 10th and the tape was very close to running out. I stopped the tape, put in another blank tape, and as a result had a nearly complete game except for a few minutes missed in the Padre top of the 10th while I was changing tapes.

After the game I hit the rewind button to listen to the bottom of the 9th and the next day I listened to the almost complete game I had on tape. The only comeback I can remember to rival that one was the rally against the Phillies in the NLCS when Bill Russell got the winning hit against Gene Garber. The Dodger rally in the 9th against the Braves in the second game of the 1959 playoffs was also one to remember

Stan from Tacoma

2006-12-17 19:58:16
9.   Bob Timmermann
I still can't figure out the equation in 6.

I'm part of the TV generation. I experience neither highs nor lows.

2006-12-17 20:14:51
10.   StolenMonkey86
6 - Was ist das, das411?
2006-12-17 20:15:30
11.   we are infinite
UCLA/Gonzaga has to be first for me but only because I saw it unfold live. I had a nasty stomach flu thing, and I swear the endorphin high from watching that game cured me singlehandedly.

The 4+1 comeback is an extremely close second.

2006-12-17 20:19:31
12.   popup
Honorable mention should go to the Greg Maddux masterpiece against the Giants. I listened to that one on the radio too with Dan Shulman doing the play by play on ESPN radio. That game took me back to all the great pitching performances I listened to as a kid when Drysdale and Koufax were in their prime.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-12-17 20:20:20
13.   Eric Enders
Every once in a while, I randomly go to Youtube and watch the 4+1 clip. I did it just yesterday, in fact. It never gets old.
2006-12-17 20:23:01
14.   Eric Enders
12 Or the Greg Maddux masterpiece against the Reds. (Cue Homer voice: "Stupid outdoor stadiums!") That's probably the closest I'll ever come to seeing a no-hitter in person.
2006-12-17 20:23:12
15.   Jon Weisman
To me, the 4+1 is the obvious choice before you consider the stakes. The only argument against it is that the loser lived to play another day.

But I'll still stick with that game.

2006-12-17 20:25:07
16.   Sushirabbit
Other than the 4+1=7 night (to which nothing in recent memory compares), the Rosebowl is it.

I read DT pretty religously; usually even all the comments. The past few days, say Vindetta on, have definitely been some of the best. I like the odd excursions, whether initiated by Jon or otherwise.

Sometimes when you're listening, it helps to tell the person what message you're getting.

I felt a twinge of satisfaction on the Drew hang-up.

DodgerHobbit, some call those that are behind T-Walls or in the GZ "Hobbits" --I think because they get "six-meals-a-day" and have burrows/bunkers/holes.

2006-12-17 20:46:30
17.   popup
Eric, I have only seen one and I have been to lots of games over the years. Hope you get to see one in person. Maybe Jason Schmidt will get one next year. Billingsley also looks like a pitcher who could throw one.

Just about the only game I missed watching Sandy pitch when the Dodgers played in Philadelphia from 62 to 66 was his no-hitter in 1964. Glad he got the no-hitter, but if it hadn't been a school night for me, I probably would have been at Connie Mack Stadium to see it. He was just one walk away from pitching a perfect game against the Phillies that night. At least I got to listen to it; my Mom was not the type to make me do schoolwork when I could listen to the Dodgers instead.

Stan from Tacoma

Stan from Tacoma

2006-12-17 20:48:41
18.   Marty
The rare double signature. Even more valuable than the double post :-)
2006-12-17 20:58:48
19.   Robert Daeley
Has to be the 4+1 for us, since we were at the game that night. Unforgettable.
2006-12-17 21:08:26
20.   Xeifrank
20. Another OT, guess I am going to have to flip on the TV and watch it now.
vr, Xei
2006-12-17 21:11:22
21.   Disabled List
USC vs. UCLA! That was the fourth best sports moment of the year for me, behind the 4+1 game, UCLA-Gonzaga, and the Giants-Eagles game back in September where the Giants came from 17 points down in the 4th quarter to win by 6 in overtime and cover the spread, completing a beautiful 4-team parlay for me.

That actually might have been the #1 moment of the year for me, now that I think about it.

2006-12-17 21:44:13
22.   Jon Weisman
New post at Screen Jam.
2006-12-17 21:58:43
23.   das411
Um.....wait, did Jeff Kent not wear #12 this year?? Then my math may be wrong...uhoh...and while I am studying for an econ exam no less...
2006-12-17 22:05:05
24.   Suffering Bruin
4 + 1 = #1.

I never thought I'd see anything more exciting than UCLA over Gonzaga. And it's tough for me to vote it number one because my mom called to take me to the four-homer game. I didn't answer the phone and had the answering machine volume on low.

Yes, I think about it everyday.

2006-12-17 22:15:54
25.   Samuel
23

I believe das411 is referring to the debacle at home plate against the mets...

2006-12-17 22:22:14
26.   Berkeley Doug
For me, it's a tie between the 4+1 game and the Maddux gem. The 4+1 game had the tremendous drama and Vin was calling the game. The Maddux gem was against the Giants (which is always an added bonus) and the dejection in Joe Morgan's voice after Martin hit the HR. Those are the two games I have permanently saved on my Tivo.
2006-12-17 22:22:58
27.   bhsportsguy
1 and 1A would be 4+1 and UCLA vs. USC. I was at both, I could not sleep right away after the games and I have the ticket stubs to prove it.

I think the main difference is that a baseball game, unless it is the final victory of the World Series, only carries until the next day, unfortunately for me, I attended the next day and saw the Dodgers lose to the lowly Pirates.
Not that the comeback wasn't great and I too sometimes will go back and watch or listen to it but the thing for me that makes it memorable is that the Dodgers made the playoffs so that win was very important.

Now, the UCLA vs. USC game, that game was just this 3 hour buildup and when the McPick occurred, that was a moment of sheer joy for the Bruin faithful and shock and dismay from the USC fanatics. But unlike the Dodger game, there was no tommorrow, it won't happend for another year, so you can savour for a much longer period.

Now, Kobe's 81, UCLA's run to the NCAA final game or even Vince Young's performance in the championship game were all impressive but since I wasn't there, they don't compare to the first two.

2006-12-17 22:42:58
28.   trainwreck
UCLA Gonzaga has to be first for me because I was assuming UCLA was just going to lose, but we got closer and closer in the second half and then they just went on that burst and I was going crazy. I thought I was going to have a heart attack.
2006-12-17 22:49:13
29.   bhsportsguy
Okay, how about top memories at a Dodger game.

1. I didn't say favorite because of the first one on my list, which is seeing Barry Bonds hit his record breaking homers in Pac Bell Park in 2001. Now, the Dodgers won that game going away, so no problem there but love him or hate him, it was baseball history that night.

2. Opening Day, 1977, Sinatra and Sutton help Tommy win his first opening day as manager of the Dodgers.

3. Fernando, 1981, saw him throw is second home shutout in April that year, the mania was beginning to take hold of L.A.

4. Nomomania, another "rookie" pitcher, never before or since have I seen so many Japanese fans at a Dodger game as Hideo pitched a gem against the Reds.

5. Clemens vs. Brad Penny (August 2005), two of the greatest pitchers in baseball history were in Dodger Stadium that day, Sandy Koufax and Roger Clemens. Clemens did what he did that year, which was pitch great, Brad matched him and the Dodgers won the game in the late innings.

6. September 11, 1983 - Jon has written eloquently about that day.

7. Nomar's walk-off grand slammy, less than a week after his dramatic 2-run homer in the 4+1 game, he comes up in the 9th in the last home game of the regular season and wins the game starting a 7 game win streak that put the Dodgers into the playoffs.

8. 4+1, still hard to believe it really happened.

9. Greg Maddux's home debut as a Dodger. I saw Maddux pitch 5 times at a Dodger Stadium, his team won 4 times but lost at the one playoff game he started. And even though he had much better games than his first one as a Dodger, the crowd was into it from the start, he made some nice fielding plays and there was a sense from the crowd that maybe he was going to lead this team to something special, which he did.

That's nine and certainly this order is not perfect, I would move some of this year's games up the list but my criteria was that I had to independently remember the games, not just look them up on Retrosheet.

2006-12-17 22:49:22
30.   Xeifrank
Looks like the Padres are getting pretty close to signing Marcus Giles to be their second baseman and leadoff hitter. I would think that the possibility of playing on the same team with his brother would make the Padres the front-runner. I see that David Wells is probably putting off his retirement for another year and that the Padres are also a front-runner for signing him. With the way the salaries have sky-rocketed this year, I don't blame Wells for going to the bank for one more year. Looking over the current Padre starting rotation, I noticed that Chris Young had a BAA of only .206. Thinking it must've been due to park factors, I then found that his BAA on the road was something like .176! Pretty amazing! I didn't do any indepth research to luck factors on BABIP.

I wonder if the Red Sox are trying to get out of this Drew contract now that they weren't able to trade Manny Ramirez. Or perhaps they are just trying to get some favorable wording into his contract.

Good luck to Toby Hall. I thought he didn't want to be a backup?
vr, Xei

2006-12-17 22:59:12
31.   Andrew Shimmin
Young's BABIP, on the year, was .237 (his away BABIP was right around the Mendoza line). His LOB% was about eighty.

So, pretty lucky.

2006-12-17 23:12:17
32.   Sagehen
29 In response to your #4: Nomomania at Candlestick. Japanese signs and Dodger caps all over the stadium. Now THAT I will never forget.
2006-12-17 23:18:08
33.   Sagehen
Re: Drew (jumping in a little late here). I thought the shoulder thing was a known injury. Didn't he say at some point mid to late season last year that he had been feeling some weakness in his shoulder and that's why his power numbers were down? I think at the time he blamed recovery time from the off-season shoulder surgery, but now it seems that it wasn't just recovery from the surgery.

Yes, I too feel a guilty pleasure in his medical problem. I know I shouldn't. It's sort of like the pleasure one feels at seeing one's ex get dumped by someone else.

2006-12-17 23:19:40
34.   CanuckDodger
I have never been big on fan-generated trade ideas, because they usually always involve the fan assuming his favorite team can rape and pillage some other team, but I made a trade suggestion on another Dodger board that nobody likes because they think the Dodgers give up too much. I want to see what the reaction is here. My trade idea is the following:

Blue Jays get:
Brad Penny, Andre Ethier & Tim Hamulack

Dodgers get:
Alexis Rios, Dustin McGowan & Francisco Rosario

People on the other board think Penny should be enough for Rios, with maybe Toronto adding something else to Rios. I don't see it. Penny is older, more expensive, and closer to free agency than Rios, and is coming off a brutal second half of a season. Toronto is not making a hole in their outfield for that. However, sweeten the deal with Ethier, whose job would be taken by Rios anyway, and I could see Toronto biting. Ethier is two years further removed from free agency than Rios. I think we could get McGowan and Rosario because they are young flame-throwers who may have walked too many batters in the majors last year for a sabermetrically-inclined GM like Ricciardi to appreciate their potential as much as he should.

2006-12-17 23:36:52
35.   trainwreck
Doesn't McGowan have injury issues?
2006-12-17 23:37:05
36.   dzzrtRatt
Alexis Rios, most similar by age: Ken Landreaux.

Also compared to Luis Gonzalez and Coco Crisp.

He looks pretty solid, but I get the feeling all the attention he's getting on DT is because of the fan flirtation with his teammate, Vernon Wells.

If we want Coco Crisp, why don't we just get Coco Crisp? I don't think the Red Sox were all that enamored of him, so he could be had for Brad Penny straight up.

This seems like a trade that would weaken our starting rotation, and be a wash offensively. Rios looks like a solid player, but with another year under his belt, are we sure Ethier wouldn't get pretty close to his production?

2006-12-17 23:56:35
37.   CanuckDodger
35 -- Both McGowan and Rosario have had Tommy John surgery in recent years. They are both healthy now, but they are now more likely bullpen arms than the starters they used to be. McGowan pitched 111 IP this year between Triple A and the majors, and between the bullpen and starting. Rosario pitched 75 innings between Triple A and the majors. Off the top of my head, I am not sure if Rosario started at all this year. McGowan has a starter's repetoire and reaches 96 MPH out of the bullpen. He has expressed a preference for relief work. Rosario reminds me of Brazoban: a short Dominican with a power arm. His mid-90's fastball gets up to 98 out of the bullpen, and he has an 85-88 MPH slider and a split-grip change up. Like I said, they have had some issues with walks, but that could improve either with experience of just getting further away from their TJ surgeries. I think both are out of options so we would have to use both in L.A., but that is just one more reason why I think Toronto might let them go in the right deal.
2006-12-18 00:23:28
38.   CanuckDodger
36 -- A nice illustration of the problem with computer-generated career-stats-driven "player comparisons" for two players who haven't played at age 27 yet. Coco Crisp this year: .264/.349/.385. Rios this year: .302/.349./516. Crisp is an LF-CF with a very average arm, and we need a right fielder, not a left-fielder or a center fielder. Rios is an RF with a cannon for an arm. Crisp is a tool-less journeyman who may already be passed his peak. Rios just had his breakout year and he always has had the tools to become a true star.
2006-12-18 00:43:52
39.   dzzrtRatt
38 Yeah, I think you're right, from reading a bit more about him. I don't share the national obsession with the AL East, so I wasn't all that aware of his great first half. But you're aware I assume that his breakout year could more properly be termed a breakout first half of the season. But how do you square all the hype with only 17 home runs? It seems like the Dodgers are full up with guys with doubles power. I ask again -- how much more than what we're expecting to get from Ethier would Rios give us? Enough to make up for a returned-to-form Penny's absence?

You know who would love this trade, though: Bill Plaschke.

2006-12-18 00:59:42
40.   trainwreck
He's not proven enough for Plaschke. He needs to be older with less upside to meet Plaschke's tastes.
2006-12-18 01:31:55
41.   CanuckDodger
38 -- I don't think Mr. Bill would like my trade at all, if it happened, unless he doesn't care how we get rid of Penny and just wants him gone period. Rios is not enough of a Proven Player(TM), let alone Prove Power Hitter, for Plaschke, and he would, I'm sure, look at McGowan and Rosario's MLB stats and freak out.

About Rios's second half, I believe he suffered from an infection, so unless the infection was something more serious than I heard about, he should be okay going forward.

Your question about what we can expect from Rios, and whether it would be enough extra than what we could expect from Ethier to justify a trade, is valid. Defensively, Rios is a big up-grade from Ethier in RF, no question. But I think you are more interested in offense. Honestly, I am not sure Rios would be a huge upgrade from Ethier for 2007 alone, but I am not someone who EVER just looks at the next season in isolation. I like Rios as a long term investment over Ethier. From a scouting perspective, Ethier may have already done as much in one season as anybody ever expected of him, given the abilities he displayed in the minors, and his physical attributes. But Rios was pegged by scouts to have huge potential. Just before Rios' MLB career began, the 2004 Baseball America Handbook said of Rios that Toronto "...could have another Juan Gonzalez or Dave Winfield on its hands, a perennial all-star right fielder who could hit .300 with 35 homers, or win a batting championship with 20-homer power." There's the question: will Rios be a 20-homer guy or 35-homer guy? It is probably settled that Ethier won't be more than a 20-homer guy. I am in favor of taking a gamble that Rios could be a 35-homer guy if the pririce is Penny and Ethier -- as long as we got the other two players I covet, McGowan and Rosario. Penny is expendable because I would prefer that both Billingsley and Kuo be in the rotation, and right now that is not happening. Ethier is expendable IF we get Rios because there would be no room for Ethier anyway with Rios, Pierre, and Gonzalez in the outfield, and Kemp is poised to step in for Gonzalez.

2006-12-18 01:40:04
42.   CanuckDodger
41 -- That should have been post "39" I was replying to, not "38."
2006-12-18 01:45:47
43.   dzzrtRatt
41 You make a good case.

I find myself wondering when the discussion of trades includes Penny whether LA can really get good value for him. Either he's damaged goods or he's not. In a trade, he'll be regarded as damaged goods, in which case trading him seems hardly worth it, because we won't get much back.

I don't want to let go of Billz or Kuo -- that's a bias on my part, but so be it. I hate the idea of trading Lowe, but if we want a big fish coming back our way, we might have to look at that. Penny's not the best bait right now. Schmidt makes the prospect of trading Lowe a little less dire of a prospect -- although Lowe is the most durable of all our starters, and we need that.

2006-12-18 02:12:03
44.   fanerman
I have to go with Kobe's 81. I know it's not the most popular sport here (well duh) and certainly he's not the most popular guy here, but that was an amazing night and I'm more likely to remember that night 10 years from now than the other moments.
2006-12-18 02:38:41
45.   Vishal
[6] that's not an "awesomely memorable" event. it's a tragically, horribly, disastrously memorable event.
2006-12-18 02:55:10
46.   Vishal
i like your alex rios trade idea, canuck. he even played center for a few games, so it's not too much to think maybe he could be put there in emergencies or to spell someone. and he's right-handed!

plus last year, if you look at his monthly splits, he was doing quite well until his leg injury (caused by a foul ball) in late june, and then he missed almost all of july, and his august stats were terrible, suggesting the layoff (and perhaps the lingering of the injury) had made him lose his rhythm, but he picked it up and OPSed .977 in september.

so yeah, i'd be interested in him. and i definitely want to see billz and kuo in the rotation, so even though it might be selling low on penny, we'd also be selling high on ethier.

2006-12-18 06:35:57
47.   Daniel Zappala
I definitely have to go with the 4 + 1 game, though the sheer drama of the UCLA-Gonzaga game, with the NCAA tournament on the line, and the fact that I watched that one live, comes really close. I'm awfully jealous of those who have gotten to see some of these great moments in person, and I really miss LA right now.
2006-12-18 06:50:32
48.   MSarg29
I know this is off topic, but it appears that Krivsky in Cincinnatti is rubbing people the wrong way. Barton's comment on the Nats and Guardado trade are certainly entertaining.

http://tinyurl.com/t6w3u

2006-12-18 07:43:04
49.   Bob Timmermann
The greatest moment in L.A. sports in 2006 when the Dodgers left two runners on base in the ninth inning of the last game of the year against the Giants to tie the team record for runners left on base.

The joy I felt when Jason Repko walked and Andre Ethier drew a walk against Brian Wilson was hard to measure.

2006-12-18 07:53:23
50.   Gen3Blue
Does anyone know where I can find a description of the horrible 0-2 event mentioned in 6. For some reason I feel like a good dose of humiliation. I just remember it was shocking and I was very surprised some heads didn't roll. But Grits is mellow!
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-12-18 08:01:39
51.   Vishal
[50] why settle for a mere description? here it is in all its horror, complete with joe morgan cackling in the background:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bTyjwMeSno

2006-12-18 09:10:50
52.   Jason in Canada
Defintely the 4+1, Even in hockey mad Vancouver the morning guys went on and on about that game as the best they had ever seen. That was a great moment. Felt like I was back home in the valley again.
2006-12-18 09:15:02
53.   Sam DC
The future is now -- the link is to an article that appeared in the print edition of Sunday's Washington Post. The article is based on a statistical study and accompanying post that appeared at an NBA blog.

http://tinyurl.com/uyouf

2006-12-18 09:48:58
54.   Gen3Blue
Thanks Vishal--that had more than the desired effect. I had forgotten the Morgan cackling in the background. Of course he would be there.
2006-12-18 10:16:32
55.   Greg S
I was lucky enough to be sitting in the front row behind the Padres dugout for 4+1. Before the game, the three of us kept saying "this game is huge". When we came back from the first inning 4 run deficit, we said "wow, this could be big". Around the 8th inning, after what felt like the 10th twist of the game, I sat slumped in my seat but said "well, whatever happens, this has been a hell of a game". I'm usually too grouchy to admit things like that.

It was down to 2 of us in the 9th and we stayed more out of appreciation for the game than out of any real hope.
When Kent hit the 1st home run, I rolled my eyes. When Drew bombed the 2nd, I kinda smiled at the irony. When Martin hit the third, my mouth dropped and I said to my buddy "if we somehow win this game now, it will be the greatest regular season game ever played". When Marlon hit #4... well, I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that in sports. Transcendent is the best word I can think of to describe it.

After that, it was so magical, it ceased to have the feeling of "will we win or lose?" it was just a matter of sitting back and watching the end of this great movie. When Nomar finished it, it was just popping the Champagne cork at midnight after the best party ever thrown.

So I pick UCLA/Gonzaga.
No, I'll stick with the 4+1 Monday night miracle.
Sorry for the long post but I just had to relive it.

2006-12-18 10:42:53
56.   Marty
Reminder about the Happy Holiday of your choice fundraiser:

I'm going to match up to $200 of DT commenter's donations to this site.

Just drop me an email at mleadman@charter.net when you make a contribution. I'll track the responses and match the amounts up to $200 total. Please put Dodger Thoughts in the subject of the mail to make it easier for me to find.

Please don't think there is any pressure to contribute if you don't want to/can't afford to. It's perfectly fine.

So far, I've gotten notice for $90 dollars in donations from some fine people out there. Don't you want to be like them? :-)

I'm going to give this a couple more threads before I cut it off since I don't want to be pestering people forever. Thanks

2006-12-18 10:46:30
57.   sanchez101
1.USC/Texas - Wasn't this the "Game of the Century"

Probably the worst sports moment of the year for me, and I'd still watch it again. I've never allowed myself to be as invested in a single Dodgers game that way, for good reason. But I hope one day I can. (BTW, I'll never forgive ESPN for that idiotic series where they concluded the 2005 Trojans were the best team ever)

Chanuck - I think you are really, really underestimating Penny's trade value in this offseason. There are so many teams with money, that expect to be competative, and that need (or feel like they need) an "established, veteran starter" that guys like Ted Lilly and Jason Marquis are getting good contracts.

If you're a GM who else is out there on the trade market? I suspect that the loosers of the Zito-sweepstakes will be first in line for any potential Penny deal.

2006-12-18 10:55:44
58.   D4P
I suspect that the loosers of the Zito-sweepstakes will be first in line for any potential Penny deal

The losers of the Zito-sweepstakes will be the team that signs him.

2006-12-18 11:22:26
59.   Bob Timmermann
58
It sounds like something out of "War Games".
2006-12-18 11:30:31
60.   Sam DC
I'm not registered at imdb and so can't read the comment threads, but I am a little curious about the comment thread on the new Knight Rider movie titled "Keep Knight Rider Real!"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384254/

2006-12-18 11:36:27
61.   Benaiah
Keep Night Rider Real
Let's all face it! The Hoff (Michael Knight) and William Daniels (K.I.T.T.) both made knight rider what it was. Having any one else play those two parts or alter the story plot will be a cheap imitation of the legacy. As a Knight Rider fan, I have to give the Hoff credit for trying keep the Knight Rider legacy authentic and not to ruin the integrity of the legacy. As for Knight Rider 2000, so it really wasn't all what we expected it to be but it was nice to see Michael Knight and KITT's humor intact which made it in the 1980s. I have all 4 seasons on DVD and it does well by me to keep the memory alive.
2006-12-18 11:38:07
62.   Benaiah
61 - Imagine if you were the sort of person who was a huge Night Rider fan. What's the equivalent in sports? Being a season ticket holder at the WNFL?
2006-12-18 11:40:16
63.   Benaiah
The suspensions of the NBA brawlers are in:

http://tinyurl.com/yb23e5

Melo gets 15 games, Robinson and J.R. Smith get 10, 4 other players got suspended. Sounds about right.

2006-12-18 11:41:04
64.   Sam DC
As a Knight Rider fan, I have to give the Hoff credit for trying keep the Knight Rider legacy authentic and not to ruin the integrity of the legacy.

I guess he hasn't seen The Hoff's music videos.

2006-12-18 11:43:46
65.   Eric Enders
63 Sort of weird that Isiah didn't get suspended though.
2006-12-18 11:43:49
66.   D4P
I've never seen "War Games," and I never watched "Knight Rider." I did, however, get to sit in the Knight Rider car at Universal Studios back in 1984.
2006-12-18 11:45:52
67.   Benaiah
An Indian athlete had her medals stripped because she failed a gender test. She had too many Y chromosomes, even though she never underwent a sex change operation.

http://tinyurl.com/ybr8nu

This is crazy on so many levels. First of all, would a male athlete be suspended along the same lines? Second, how horrible a phone call is that one? "Yeah, they are going to take your medal because you are genetically hermaphroditic." That is a bad day for sure.

2006-12-18 12:02:46
68.   Humma Kavula
67 I agree entirely when you so "that's a bad day for sure," and because those are my sentiments, I wonder if SI couldn't have found a more sympathetic headline than "Dude Looks Like a Lady."

Sorry for biting the hand that feeds our host.

2006-12-18 12:10:03
69.   Benaiah
68 - I didn't even notice that. That is actually borderline offensive.

If it was America I think that there would be protests against taking her medal. The LBGT community maintains that gender is a state of mind and this is pretty clear cut case of being female in all ways except for some things far beyond your control.

2006-12-18 12:12:34
70.   Benaiah
69 - oops, I think it the acronym is actually LGBT.
2006-12-18 12:15:29
71.   Eric Enders
"There are no compulsory gender tests during events sanctioned by the International Association of Athletics Federations, but athletes may be asked to take a gender test. The medical evaluation panel usually includes a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist and internal medicine specialist."

So if I am reading this correctly, she failed a voluntary test, which makes it even weirder. Why would anyone volunteer for that?

2006-12-18 12:21:39
72.   DodgerHobbit
16
I have my handle for the most nerdiest of reasons. I like 'em and played one long ago in everquest /hangs head.

God bless everyone that are real hobbits out there and hopefully they get to come home very soon safe and sound.

I don't know what I'm talking about but my initial reaction is Penny alone is a bit too much.

2006-12-18 12:33:21
73.   Benaiah
71 - She was a woman as far as she knew. Why refuse something that you assume will exonerate you.
2006-12-18 12:37:04
74.   Eric Enders
73 But what's the benefit to her?
2006-12-18 12:37:19
75.   Benaiah
Imagine finding out that you can't have children on the same day that you lost your extremely desirable job forever and then realize that thousands of people around the world would probably think it was funny. Unbelievable.
2006-12-18 12:39:13
76.   Benaiah
74 - Someone accuses you of something you know is ridiculous. Like if someone at work accuses of you of being a heroin addict and you have never even smoked a cigarette. You don't have to take the drug test, but if you refuse then everyone will assume you have something to hide. So you take the test and somehow fail, without doing anything wrong.
2006-12-18 12:40:03
77.   Sushirabbit
72 Ha! Don't feel bad played D&D when it came out in the box (after chainmail). Ack! Is Ken related to Dave Arneson? Somehow that would make twisted sense to me. All my buddies are back home.

I'm with the "Keep Penny" crowd. And I'd rather get Scott Hairston than Rios. OK, OK, I'm just throwing that out to be contrarian. Do any of you prospect guys know what the status of Hairston is? Is he still with the D-Backs?

2006-12-18 12:48:31
78.   Benaiah
77 - He is on the DBacks 40 man roster. He crushes the ball in the PCL, but at 26 he seems like a AAAA player more than an MLB guy (though I hate that 26 year olds who crush the ball in AAA don't get a chance).
2006-12-18 12:50:37
79.   Dane Bramage
67 I remember watching a documentary on a woman accused of a crime on iffy DNA evidence. It turned out that she shared male/female chromosomal features. Experts determined that she was in-utero twins where one twin wasn't viable, but some of its organ tissue was absorbed into her foetus, where it matured and functioned normally into adulthood thereby causing the double DNA signature - kinda creepy!
2006-12-18 12:54:25
80.   Benaiah
Apparently the Olympics allows transsexuals to compete, so I guess the problems is one of grouping?

http://tinyurl.com/ykmmmd

2006-12-18 13:01:28
81.   blue22
77 - I'm inclined to keep Penny as well, but why not see what Kuo could pull in return? I think he'd bring as much as, if not more than, Penny and I'm a little concerned that Kuo's elbow might not hold up for the long haul. A Penny/Wolf/Billz back end seems a bit more stable than a Wolf/Billz/Kuo.
2006-12-18 13:04:56
82.   ToyCannon
From BP Chat
New York): Your top ten further showed how nuts the Dodgers system is. Where would Hochevar rank? Billingsley, Kershaw, and Elbert already seem like they can trump any other recent set of pitching prospects.

Kevin Goldstein: Yes, the amount of young talent in the Dodgers system is nuts. Thank Logan White for it. On a quick review, I'd put Hochevar 2 or 3 on their top 10 and 3 or 4 on their under 25 list. That shows just how much talent there is in that system. Major league breakout candidate for 2007? Chad Billingsley.

2006-12-18 13:07:16
83.   Benaiah
81 - Why trade the younger, cheaper player who is under your control for longer instead of the older, more expensive, right handed player who has his own injury risks and a recent history of horrible failure? Penny is a "safer" bet to cost more, but you could make an argument that Kuo is superior in every other way.
2006-12-18 13:07:52
84.   Benaiah
82 - What top ten is that?
2006-12-18 13:09:49
85.   madmac
Here is my fortune from lunch today. Thought it was fitting. "Look for a lost penny that will bring you luck."
2006-12-18 13:13:51
86.   El Lay Dave
The 4+1, USC/Texas, Kobe 81 all have to rank up there, but I'm casting a vote for Eric McNeal's interception of J.D. Drew, er, Booty sealing the great Bruin victory over the overrated Trojans.

UCLA/Gonzaga was nice, but it was part of a run to a finals loss. Won't surpass Ty Edney's mad dash against Mizzou in '95, will it?

2006-12-18 13:14:56
87.   ToyCannon
81
I'd be very unhappy if they traded Kuo. Easily my favorite pitcher as we head into 07. I love easy throwing lefties with heat. Sure he could blow his arm out for the 3rd time but it is not like Penny hasn't had his share of health and performance issues since he become a Dodger. His 2nd half still stands as one of the stinkiest in Dodger memory for a staff "ace".
2006-12-18 13:15:54
88.   blue22
83 - I have concerns about handing over a rotation spot to a pitcher with an injury history like Kuo (he's kind of a ticking time bomb) who has just over 200 professional innings to his credit.

With the depth of pitching prospects that LA has, I'll take Penny as the short term safe bet and gauge Kuo's value from other clubs.

2006-12-18 13:16:49
89.   bhsportsguy
82 I knew this was coming when I saw it in the Kevin Goldstein's chat today.

83 Kevin Goldstein's top ten prospects in Baseball Prospectus, Goldstein was formerly a writer for BaseballAmerica.com.

Instead of reprinting, why not go to the DT archives:

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/562540.html

2006-12-18 13:18:02
90.   ToyCannon
88
How is Penny a safe bet coming off that awfull 2nd half?
2006-12-18 13:18:25
91.   bhsportsguy
89 Remember the title, if it is Dodger related, Jon probably has talked about it.
2006-12-18 13:20:11
92.   regfairfield
On the subject of prospects, I'm trying to compile a top 30 prospect list of the people. Head over to True Blue LA to cast your vote, or just laugh at my farm system rankings.

http://tinyurl.com/yjv9pf

2006-12-18 13:20:37
93.   bhsportsguy
89 And this is not a taunt at ToyCannon, its my pavlovian conditioning, I see Luke Hochevar and expect to hear from ToyCannon.
2006-12-18 13:22:06
94.   bhsportsguy
92 Glad to participate, will need some time and research but will be happy to contribute.
2006-12-18 13:22:45
95.   El Lay Dave
34 Curious how you came to choose the throw-in Dodger pitcher in that proposal.

I am Doctor Hamulack. I am Doctor Hamulack. Ellipsis.

2006-12-18 13:24:50
96.   ToyCannon
Being a Gonzaga fan 1st and UCLA 2nd it was a torment for me to watch the rise and fall of Gonzaga.

Rooting for the pac 10 I still was able to enjoy the greatest individual football performance by a college player I'd ever witnessed during a big game. So I'm going for the Texas/USC game as my top sports moment of 06.

I left the 4+1=7 early so I'm going to continue to pretend it never happened. When you've done as many stupid things as I've done in my life that is the only way you can still smile at the end of the day.

2006-12-18 13:26:04
97.   Benaiah
89 - I read that posting, but I wasn't sure if that was the list the comment referred to. Who is on the top 10 prospect list, as opposed to the top 10 under 25?
2006-12-18 13:31:17
98.   ToyCannon
97
http://tinyurl.com/ykqzzh
2006-12-18 13:32:40
99.   El Lay Dave
Kuo - Innings pitched per year:

2000 3
2001 19
2002 14
2003 0
2004 6
2005 60
2006 113

It may be a bit optimistic to expect him to stretch out to fifth starter innings. Billingsly is actually more ready for the workload:

2003 54
2004 134
2005 146
2006 149

2006-12-18 13:32:53
100.   bhsportsguy
97 The list on the DT post is the 25 and under list. Here is the list you will see if you hit the link on Jon's post. This is Kevin Goldstein's Top Ten Dodger prospects:

Excellent Prospects
1. Clayton Kershaw, LHP
2. Andy LaRoche, 3B
3. Scott Elbert, LHP
Very Good Prospects
4. James Loney, 1B
Good Prospects
5. Jonathan Meloan, RHP
6. Josh Bell, 3B
7. Preston Mattingly, 1B
Average Prospects
8. Blake DeWitt, 2B/3B
9. Bryan Morris, RHP
10. Chin-Lung Hu, SS

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-12-18 13:34:35
101.   bhsportsguy
I posted this last week but the Kuo experiment has led the Dodgers to stretch out Greg Miller (who also had some control issues but great stuff) from middle reliever to starter next spring.
2006-12-18 13:40:26
102.   El Lay Dave
How does Goldstein define "prospect"? The list contains Loney but not Kemp?

99 "It may be a bit optimistic to expect [Kuo] to stretch out to fifth starter innings" in 2007, I meant.

2006-12-18 13:51:14
103.   Benaiah
99 - Kuo is going to start the year in the bullpen. In 29.1 innings Kuo posted a 3.375 ERA as a starter last year. Obviously, that is way less than a scientific sample, but lets say he can post a 4.0 ERA as a starter in 130 IP, with another 20 IP and a 3.0 ERA as a reliever before he gets into the rotation. That would be good for a 150 IP and a 3.87 ERA in 150 IP and make him an incredible asset to the team. Sure that is 40 IP more than he has had before, but that is not that too hard to imagine him doing.

Meanwhile, if Penny replicates his numbers from last year he would have a 4.33 ERA in 189 IP. You might argue he pitched injured in the second half of last year, but that ERA is only .3 higher than his career average and his first half ERA of 2.91 was just as far out of whack with his averages. I like Penny and I don't see why he needs to be traded, but I would rather keep Kuo.

2006-12-18 13:52:11
104.   Benaiah
102 - Less than 150 major league ABs or 50 innings pitched, which is the max allowed to still be a rookie.
2006-12-18 14:22:54
105.   Eric Enders
This may have been mentioned already, but did anyone notice that the groom-to-be who died in the NYC police shootout was supposedly a Dodger prospect?

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_351195115.html

"(CBS) NEW YORK William Bell, the father of Sean Bell spoke about the police shooting that claimed his son's life Sunday afternoon - a day after marchers filled Fifth Avenue to protest the shooting.

Sean Bell had aspired to be a professional baseball player and had been called to try out for the L.A. Dodgers, when he died in a hail of 50 police bullets on his wedding day last month, William Bell said."

Smells like BS to me but I guess it could be true.

2006-12-18 14:29:04
106.   Xeifrank
Guo may have some injury history, many good pitchers do. But after that excellent performance as a starter he gave us in September I wouldn't trade him. His one month of starting stats were staggering. Sure it's only one month, but you have to start somewhere. Instead of using him as trade bait, I would instead treat him with "kid gloves". I'm not impressed that much with Wolfe, especially if we get last years numbers or something only slightly better. I hope the Wolfe signing is nothing more than "kid gloves" for Guo so he can work out of the bullpen for part of the season before assuming a role in the rotation (as long as he does well). That would be a way to keep Guo's innings down. I don't think he should start at AAA, as that would defeat the purpose of keeping his innings pitched down. I would like to see a starting rotation of Lowe, Schmidt, Penny, Billingsley, Wolfe... with Guo taking over for Wolfe sometime during the season. If for some reason Wolfe does great then it can be a play it by ear type of deal. I am not in any big hurry to deal Penny. If the deal is a great one then yeah, do it. If not, then perhaps a trade during the season if it turns out we are still provided that luxury.
vr, Xei
2006-12-18 14:33:00
107.   El Lay Dave
104 I thought it was less than 130 ABs. Also fewer than 45 days on active major league rosters, not including DL and after Sept 1.
2006-12-18 14:34:45
108.   Jon Weisman
105 - Eric, see my thread below this one.
2006-12-18 14:37:05
109.   Benaiah
107 - Nope, 150.
2006-12-18 14:38:42
110.   Eric Enders
108 [Slaps forehead]

That's what I get for my habit of navigating the site using only the sidebar.

2006-12-18 14:44:23
111.   Sushirabbit
105 - Sadly, I really wish it was BS. Makes me remember when Dernell Stenson was shot in Arizona. Wife and I saw him hit a HR in his last AB ( I think) in the last game of the season in Cincinatti.
2006-12-18 14:44:26
112.   Penarol1916
107. & 109. Regardless, Matt Kemp had 154 at-bats in the majors and James Loney had just over 100 at-bats in the majors, that is why Loney is on all of the prospect lists, while Kemp is on none.
2006-12-18 14:47:24
113.   D4P
The verdict is in: Sarah likes the Gonzo signing.

Though many Dodgers fans believe Gonzalez is the elusive power hitter that Ned Colletti has looked for the entire offseason, I don't. Gonzalez is better viewed as a replacement for J.D. Drew. He will benefit the Dodgers by being an adequate left-handed hitter with some power and a leader in the clubhouse.

2006-12-18 14:48:38
114.   Benaiah
112 - I actually was hoping that they would hold Kemp back from those 4 ABs so he would still have a shot at Rookie awards this year. I don't think managers consider stuff like that though.
2006-12-18 14:49:44
115.   Eric Enders
I think Dave is correct, and it's 130. Also, regardless of the number, it's plate appearances and not at-bats.
2006-12-18 14:52:50
116.   Dodger Jack
Yeah, with respect to that list of under-25, top Dodger prospects, I second the question: Where the heck is Kemp?
2006-12-18 14:53:46
117.   Eric Enders
115 Actually, Google turns up all sorts of contradictory sources, which seem to be split evenly between 150 and 130. None of them are official sources -- the eligibility requirement actually doesn't seem to be included in the official MLB rulebook, for whatever reason.
2006-12-18 14:56:49
118.   Eric Enders
Baseball America Top 100 Prospects 2006:

"All players who haven't exceeded the rookie limits of 50 innings or 130 at-bats are eligible, regardless of their big league service time."

Not that they're an unimpeachable source, particularly considering they got the at bats/plate appearances thing wrong.

2006-12-18 14:57:05
119.   Penarol1916
116. Because Matt Kemp isn't officially a prospect anymore. There is another list that features players in the Dodger organization under 25 from the same source on which Matt Kemp featured.
2006-12-18 14:58:16
120.   Benaiah
116 - Under 25 he is #3.
http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/562540.html#comments
2006-12-18 14:59:02
121.   Bob Timmermann
I don't believe it's MLB who defines rookies, but rather the BBWAA.
2006-12-18 14:59:10
122.   blue22
118 - Got this from ESPN when they were discussing Hideki Matsui's rookie eligibility:

"A rookie is a player who hasn't accumulated 130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched in previous seasons and hasn't spent 45 or more days on 25-man active rosters, not including times when the active list is expanded to 40."

2006-12-18 15:02:35
123.   Eric Enders
121 Well, I don't think we can count on the BBWAA's website to tell us.

Worst. Website. Ever.

2006-12-18 15:15:09
124.   El Lay Dave
123 I was about to post similar sentiments. Their site hurt my eyes! This is official site of the people that vote on our hallowed Hall of Fame.

122 baseball-reference's bullpen/wiki states essentially the same criteria.

Really, I was questioning why "prospect" must equal "still rookie-eligible by the BBWAA". I suppose without some sort of hard-and-fast criteria, there'd be countless arguments over "prospect" lists, but Matt Kemp is hardly a proven commodity as a major-leaguer, so in my mind he is still a "prospect", rookie-eligible or not.

2006-12-18 15:35:26
125.   Indiana Jon
101

Is this fact or just a rumor? I would love to see Miller start again. Watched him in Jacksonville a few years back and he was unhittable. Some players just don't pitch as well in relief as they do when they start.

2006-12-18 15:39:30
126.   Bob Timmermann
123
Post your question to SABR-L and sit back and wait for 45 different responses and then arguments about why the number is too big or too small.
2006-12-18 15:45:34
127.   Greg Brock
For those of you wondering, Simmons compared the Knicks brawl to the Karate Kid twice today.

Also, I'm still totally shocked about Suffering Bruin almost playing the Karate Kid.

AWE-SOME.

2006-12-18 15:50:22
128.   D4P
I'm still totally shocked about Suffering Bruin almost playing the Karate Kid

You'd think they could have at least made him a Cobra Kai

2006-12-18 15:50:28
129.   Icaros
They could've at least let Suffering Bruin have a slot in the Cobra-Kai gang.
2006-12-18 15:50:57
130.   Icaros
128129

Unreal.

2006-12-18 15:56:13
131.   Jon Weisman
127 - I know. I'm still shocked as well.
2006-12-18 15:56:18
132.   Greg Brock
I wish SB could have screamed "Get him a body Bag! Yeaaahhhhh!" or "Points or no points, you're dead meat."
2006-12-18 15:58:06
133.   Icaros
Has anybody else had a problem with D4P reading his/her mind?
2006-12-18 16:00:51
134.   Greg Brock
I've mostly had problems with D4P reading my copy of James Michener's "The Bridge at Andau."

Sheesh. Give it back already.

2006-12-18 16:02:38
135.   ssjames
I always thought it was the coolest thing that I lived about 3 blocks from the apartment building they used in that movie until I grew up and realized that they were using that apartment building to represent people who live on the wrong side of the tracks.
2006-12-18 16:31:01
136.   Disabled List
Also, I'm still totally shocked about Suffering Bruin almost playing the Karate Kid.

Huh? Did I miss something?

2006-12-18 16:34:15
137.   Eric Enders
Random trivia time: Who was the last Mets starting catcher (at least 100 games caught) who did not also play for the Dodgers?
2006-12-18 16:38:21
138.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.
2006-12-18 16:44:40
139.   blue22
137 - I had to look it up. I went back so far, I was worried I'd run into Gary Carter and have to really go back in time.
2006-12-18 16:49:27
140.   Shotupthemiddle
139 It's after Carter's playing days?

I was thinking along the lines of Ron Hodges or John Stearns, pre-Carter.

2006-12-18 16:55:04
141.   Marty
Who was that Met catcher who had trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher?
2006-12-18 16:58:17
142.   Greg Brock
141 That was Mackey Sasser, but he was a backup for most of his career.

Great name, too.

2006-12-18 16:59:37
143.   blue22
Mackey Sasser in 1990. Exactly 100 games "played", I assumed they were all catching (though he probably pinch hit a few times, dropping his games caught under 100, and we're on a fast track to Ron Hodges).
2006-12-18 18:25:40
144.   Eric Enders
Sasser caught way under 100 games. The answer was Mike Fitzgerald, 1984.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.