He was a revolutionary in a very staid and conservative profession. I'm sorry to hear of this, although it wasn't unexpected.

As a child, I loathed the Niners. When I grew older and realized what Walsh was, and who he was, and how he did things, well, I look back on those Niners teams, that crushed my Rams and made me sad, with fondness.

Bill Walsh was amazing.

Was Walsh really so amazing? I mean, didn't he have The Best Quarterback in NFL History™, The Best Wide Receiver in NFL History™, The Best Safety in NFL History™, ad nauseum? Not to mention the infamous "49er Huddle" utilized by countless teams of referees to overturn unfavorable calls.

Makes me sick to even think about it.

3 - Can't tell if that's sarcasm, but those players weren't born 49ers. Bill Walsh had a lot to do with them becoming The Best ___™.

The 49ers were my first team, even before the Dodgers, and Bill Walsh was responsible for that happening. He will be missed.

3 He changed the way football was played. How many people can you say that about? You can't say it of Lombardi, Knoll, or any of those guys. Can't say it of Landry.

He practically invented modern offense.

The Forty-Niners of the '80's were the first football team I ever really paid attention to. Bill Walsh seemed like such a grandfatherly type to me at the time. And to echo the post in the earlier thread, just check out his coaching tree, wow.

Bill Walsh invented the West Coast office. That alone qualifies him for greatness. On top of that, he won many championships during a time when there was less parity and thus greater competition in the league. He also has created a massive coaching legacy -- see his coaching tree at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walsh_(football_coach)

I was a huge Rams fan and was sad when the Niners always beat the Rams, but even so I recognized that Walsh was a great coach.

From what I could tell, the 49er offense consisted primarily of very short passes to very fast receivers who ran very long distances through very porous NFC West (esp. Ram) defenses. I gave most of the credit for that to the receivers, not the weak-armed QB who threw the 5-yard passes or the coach who called what became no-brainer plays.

It's like giving credit to Phil Jackson for dumping the ball into Shaq. When you have a guy who will either dunk or get fouled, of course you dump the ball into him every time. It's the right thing to do, but it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

On a somewhat related note, I've never understood people who were 49er-Dodger fans. It just doesn't make sense.

In Baseball news, Rosenthal is reporting Dotel to the Braves and Castillo to the Mets.

I grew up a Bears fan in Chicago. I disliked Walsh and 49ers simply because they were always in our way because they were an offensive machine. When the Bears won in 85' (Super Bowl XX in '86), we finally got past them. Then Walsh landed Steve Young and it started all over again. He was a brilliant coach and a true sportsman.

R.I.P Bill. You remain a respected opponent and you gave the game and the fans a lot to be proud of.

8 You're not helping your pledge drive for minions one bit.

8 - people who were 49er-Dodger fans.

7-year olds are funny that way.

11
Love me, love my 1980s-1990s 49er hatred.

Hey, I was a Dodgers fan early and a 49ers fan late. I never lived in LA when the Rams were there, and we Hawai'i football fans had to look to the West Coast to place our allegiances.

I think Walsh's genius came in part from recognizing talent and figuring out how to use it. Montana's arm certainly wasn't close to many of his contemporaries at his position, but Walsh designed an offense to make use of the skills the guy had (and the intangibles; I remember that bowl game comeback).

9 Castillo to the Mets

That can only mean the Twins are clearing the way for a Betemit-for-Garza trade. :)

As for Walsh, my tribute to him is the indentation my knuckles left in a wall when the Niners knocked the Rams out of the playoffs one year. He stomped on my heart like few others.

13 Who scouted and drafted all those guys? Walsh did.

8. They only became no-brainer plays after the fact. Coming up with a great formula doesn't make it any less impressive when it becomes so successful that it seems obvious to us in retrospect that it is the right way. It seems obvious to us, because now everyone runs a variation of the West Coast offense.

I grew up in LA as a Dodger fan but when I was a kid my father did a business deal with Gene Washington of the 49ers and he came to our house for dinner. He was the first sports figure I met in person. Thus, a 49er -Dodger fan was born.

I loved Bill Walsh. After years of suffering thorough John Brody, Tommy Hart and the rest of the hapless 49ers, Bill Walsh made them a dynasty.

As for having the best player. Ask Brian Seabean what kind of guarantee that provides.

I think it would take a lot more than Betemit to get Garza.

Lohse to the Phillies according to Fox.

Twins tv guys consider Garza their best young pitcher so he is probably the least likely to go. Scott Baker would be more likely but Ryan rarely trades pitching.

Lohse to the Phillies.

So I guess Garnett is going to be a Celtic. Wow.

I feel honored that Bill Walsh's last football activities were to come to Raiders minicamp and give advice to our team. Bill Walsh was a true football genius and more importantly was a great man.

RIP

22 That's the only topic on Minnesota sports talk radio today.

If Rosenthal is correct, the Braves will have done two favors for us over the past 24 hours.

Would much rather have Greinke and/or Snell than Dotel, even if it would cost us a better player.

I was a Rams fan before I was a Dodger fan. My Dad moved with his family to Los Angeles in 1951, and the family had Ram season tickets for three decades.

I became a real sports fan at a Rams exhibition game in 1975. I didn't really start caring about the Dodgers until the following year. But between Georgia Frontiere and the move to Anaheim, I lost my passion for the Rams. And my dad got rid of our Ram tickets. We got season tickets for the Dodgers in 1982.

The Stanford side of my family had me rooting for the 49ers under Walsh even when he was 2-14 or whatever it was in his first season. That he turned out to be brilliant made it all the better. Those 49er teams were so much fun to watch.

When the 49ers played the Rams in the 1980s, I was torn, but I found the 49ers very easy to root for.

Montana's arm certainly wasn't close to many of his contemporaries at his position

Nor were his legs. In fact, he had virtually no discernible football skills. Couldn't throw and couldn't run. All he could really do was throw short passes to fast receivers who did the rest.

But I've said enough.

27 You realize that these are very tough sells, right?

I remember Walsh saying he told his scouts that he wanted to see the five best plays a player made before he made a decision about whom to draft. He was very into what a person was capable of doing and that has influenced me to this day. Too many people focus on the negative and that rarely helps anybody.

About the time the 49ers became great, the Rams lost their owner in a drowning and his wife, Georgia Fronterie, became owner, fired her step son, traded Hacksaw and Dyer (one of the all time best pass rushing defensive ends of all time if I have his name right) to the 49ers, failed to trade up in the draft like the 49ers did to get Ron Lott, donated to the opera, and thereafter drained the Rams only to be rewarded by St. Louis.

As a pup I was a big Vikings/Reds (NFL/MLB) fan and rooted hard against the Rams/Dodgers. Then later in life i discovered the whole home-town loyalty aspect of being a sports fan. I became a Rams fan and it seemed like when the Rams and 49ers would always beat each other on the road there for a while. I never really hated Bill Walsh or the 49ers. I had a quiet respect for them. Mr Walsh seemed like a nice person, but I will leave the accolades to those that knew him. More importantly, I hope his family is coping with their loss. To me that's the most important thing when someone dies, not how much you loved or hated his teams. When someone passes away, it doesn't seem all that respectful to be a "hater".
vr, Xei

27
If only that was true.

Ingrid Bergman is one of those people in film that I have heard so much about, but really never got to see what he did. I have only seen La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc, but the man obviously had tons of talent and has influenced so many filmmakers that he had to be doing something right.

If it weren't for my Dad, there's a good chance I'd be a Giant fan. Most of my family is from SF/Sacto and are big time Giant and Niner fans, and I lived up north until I was about 8. I grabbed the Niners first, followed by the Dodgers by way of my Dad. I didn't really care about basketball until I moved down South, and Magic took care of the rest from that point on.

29 Talk like that about the Rams just makes me sad. What a shame that they didn't stay and aren't still LA's team.

How's the Potter chat going?

30
It doesn't do one much good to be "hater" at anytime. I outgrew that when I grew up. It took me 40 years but eventually I got there.

35 Slower than I thought it would be.

The city of Los Angeles was taken for a ride by that owner. Used and discarded, almost with contempt. Where's Jim Healy when you need him? Oh yeah....

19 I think it would take a lot more than Betemit to get Garza.

Yeah, that was really not meant as a serious possibility. The Twins have no reason to trade Garza. but Betemit would be a good fit for them.

You realize that these are very tough sells, right?

Absolutely. I'm one of a small minority who never bought into the hype. People look at Montana's stats and think he's great. To those who watched the games, it was pretty clear that other people did most of the work. He threw short passes, which bumped up his completion % and kept his INTs down, and then the fast guys ran a long way after catch, which bumped up his yardage and gave him TDs.

There's no doubt in my mind that virtually any other NFL QB could have thrown similar 5-yard slant passes to Rice and Taylor with similar success.

29 - That's Fred "Two Safeties in One Game" Dryer.

Growing up, our family always believed that Georgia had Carroll murdered. He was reported to have drowned in four feet of water.

34
I should have walked up to the Edward Jones Dome last week and cursed Georgia Frontiere!

Georgia took me from avid Rams fan to barely caring about the NFL. I watch about 3 games a year now, maybe.

Oh, no!! Jimmy Fallon is replacing Conan O'Brien when Conan takes over for Leno.

32 Careful, D4P will go on a rant about how Bergman was an overrated hack who was lucky to work with good actors. Anybody can point a camera at a movie star. ;)

My mother absolutly forbid me to say I hated something, even the cough medicine, but she did allow me to have water with it. It worked, I can say I have never hated. I also learned the difference between observing and judging and am now a much better observer.

43 - He's just on a list of candidates. But Evan Grant calls it a lock.

46
Yeah, the headline jumped the gun.

Bergman's arm certainly wasn't close to many of his contemporaries at his position

Nor were his legs. In fact, he had virtually no discernible football skills. Couldn't throw and couldn't run. All he could really do was throw short passes to fast receivers who did the rest.

Certainly Walsh was a great coach. I may be wrong, but rather than inventing his offense, I always thought it was more of an evolution of the Sid Gillman, Don Coryell style of pass-offense, but adapted to be more horizontal than vertical. It may be, however, that both have been referred to as West Coast offense.

40 I still go back and listen to Healy clips online. His roundabout allegations were hilarious.

Georgia was Rachel Phelps. The villain.

43 The real thing that blows my mind is that NBC is debating cutting bait on Conan replacing Leno and eating the money that he's owed as part of his contract. For all I know the contract is setup a specific way, but from what I read it seems like NBC would rather pay $40 mil owed to Conan to keep Leno.

51
If Conan goes to CBS, then I will follow. IF anything wouldn't Conan bring a new audience to the Tonight Show? The people who watch it now, will probably still watch it.

39. Well, you would be wrong. While I'm not going to argue that Montana was the best quarterback, you are severely underestimating what is important in being a good quarterback. Most anyone can throw a 5-yeard slant, the key is in reading the defense and knowing when to throw it, to whom to throw, where to put the ball when you do this. These are very difficult things to do, particularly the first two, which is why you see so many highly drafted quarterbacks do poorly. To me, the things that make a quarterback very good are among the most intangible in all of the sports. The ability to make a quick read and to do what you want to do under pressure are nearly impossible to measure, as long as a meet a minimal (for NFL players at least) phyiscal threshold you will be a successful NFL quarterback if you can do these two things, Montana was among the best at these things.

49 I was under the same impression.

Also, Jerry Rice wasn't particularly fast.

Not a good time to be very well known, re: Snyder, Bergman, Robinson, Walsh.

Sadly, Lohse was probably the best pitcher that was realistically available, so there goes that option.

Odalis is now probably the best pitcher that's available. Ponder that for a second.

Vin Scully was the TV play by play guy when Montana hit Clark in the back of the end zone according to the Colorado announcers the other night.

56 - Time flies and that was the shortest second in recorded history.

57
That was Scully's last football game. He left CBS because they wouldn't give him the Super Bowl assignment.

Heh. Odalis isn't happening, thankfully. Hard to come back when you've been treated like a trash.

Why jimmy Fallon? I was thinking that Tina Fey would be a funny progressive replacement for Conan.

At least it wont be Dane Cook.

Love this from Olney re the TEX/ATL deal:

"The deal reminds me a little of the fire-sale trades made by the Padres in 1993. At the time, San Diego swapped perennial All-Star Gary Sheffield for young players that casual fans wouldn't know, and Padres GM Randy Smith was excoriated for the deal. And one of those three young players is going to the Hall of Fame -- Trevor Hoffman -- rather then just a middle reliever with a great arm."

I think Lohse would have been a poor acquisition. He's maddeningly inconsistent, and that never works well down a stretch drive.

Is there any substance that Snell or Greinke are even available?

61 How about Tina behind the desk and Jimmy as the Ed McMahon sidekick?

And one of those three young players is going to the Hall of Fame -- Trevor Hoffman -- rather then just a middle reliever with a great arm

What if he's just a middle reliever with a great arm who's going to the Hall of Fame...?

63 Oh, he's not guaranteed to be better than Tomdrickson, I'm just saying he was the best pitcher available.

I join the chorus of those here that are concerned about Bonds breaking the record at Dodger Stadium.

It would probably be a lot of booing, and that's it. But man, there is a capacity for serious shenanigans.

I think if we make any deal it will be for a starting pitcher that no one thought was available. We have enough talent to make anyone available. I just said that last line to make those who like to be nervous, nervous.

67 I think the guy who posted previously about thousands of Russ bobbleheads being thrown onto the field should Barry go yard on Thursday was onto something.

I think if we make any deal it will be for a starting pitcher that no one thought was available

Barry Zito...?

21
I could see us going for Matt Morris.

32 Train, Carl Theodor Dreyer was actually the director of that amazing film Passion de Jeanne d'Arc. I can see how you can get them mixed up, though, both being moody Scandinavian directors.

It's eerie, because I'd just rented The Seventh Seal, realizing I had only seen pieces of it in film school. Had no idea how prescient or symbolic that rental would be. Some of his films are truly depressing even if beautiful, but many were a bit more up - Smiles of a Summer Night, Wild Strawberries is beautiful, many others.

Btw, I always hated the 49ers because I was a Broncos fan living in the Bay Area and then the Niners put the smackdown on Denver in the Super Bowl which sealed it for me. But I also always respected the heck out of Walsh.

That should be a 70 under 71.

My Dad always believed Rosenbloom was murdered. But he thought it was gambling problems.

He claimed to know that Rosenbloom was a very strong swimmer.

And man did he hate Goergia Frontiere.

73
How does one try to type "70" and type "21" instead...?

75
No idea.

75 By closing one's eyes.

I think I accidentally typed over it, while typing to someone on Aim.

Anyone worried about the Dodgers giving up anything to acquire Dotel can probably - probably - breathe a sigh of relief now. Via Ken Rosenthal: the Braves are close to a deal for Royals' closer Octavio Dotel. They apparently have made a better offer than finalists Cleveland and Los Angeles.

There is no way I will throw my Martin bobblehead at Barry. It is too valuable to me. It is getting kind of sick...last night I dreamed that I went to the game early and got to chat with Martin by home plate. I woke up very sad to be in reality.

For some reason I will be happy to witness such a historic event if Barry hits it out on Thursday.

I hated Montana like cancer (Notre Dame AND the 49ers?), but man was he a great quarterback and sell him short at your peril.

79
The better news is that we might be interested in Benoit becuase the price on Dotel was to high. Benoit would have been one of my top choices if we had to get a reliever. I'd rather see him pitching the 6th/7th and the occasional 8th then high priced closers being converted to setup men. His skill set has been on the rise for 4 straight years.

79 - Stark mentions on ESPN.com the names of Farnsworth and Benoit now as LA "targets".

71 - I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see Matt Morris on the Dodgers.

79 How is it that the Braves could make a better offer for Dotel when they allegedly threw all of their young talent at the Rangers to get Teixeira?

Happy 48th birthday Rickey Horton ! He pitched 4 scoreless innings in the 1988 NLCS.

84 - We don't know what LA's offer was for Dotel. If not Hu, then who?

82 You make a good point about going for a setup man to be your setup man rather than going for a closer. That said, Dotel is a pretty good pitcher to pitch a 6th/7th stint. Are the Orioles still waving Bradford around or has that stopped now that Chris Ray is injured?

84 They still have Lillbridge who is probably worth more than Hu. Not that this would unnecessarily happen.

The "word" is that since Moore knows the Brave farm system better then anyone he knows who he wants for Dotel. Lillbridge was acquired this winter when Moore was already gone so I'm not sure he is the target.

87
Dotel might very well be a good setup man but Beniot can do the same job for less. Of course most of us think Meloan can do the same job for the price of a phone call.

*MEDIA ADVISORY*
FRANK MCCOURT, OWNER AND CHAIRMAN OF THE LOS ANGELES DODGERS,TO MAKE MAJOR CHARITABLE ANNOUNCEMENT
WHEN: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4 p.m.

There's a trading deadline joke to be made here.

88 Thanks. Yes, Lillibridge is still a chip for them. He's not exactly tearing up the AAA though.

90 You are on top of your one-liner game today, Jon.

I would like to ask bluegold (referring to his post in the last thread) what trade he thinks could have been made to "win now". People wanting not to trade Loney and Kemp and Billingsley want not to trade them so that we can win now and win for years to come. What trade is there out there to put the Dodgers over the top this year? I can't think of a single one.

90 Why in the world would somebody make a huge announcement for charity three hours after the most frantic moment in baseball?

Weird

89 You think most of us think Meloan is as good a reliever as Dotel? As good as Benoit?

92 - He's not a fan of developing Billingsley, so I would assume a package would start with Chad for a "proven" starter like an Aaron Harang or Javier Vazquez.

Having seen submariner Chad Bradford miss some bats at Camden Yards, I wouldn't mind seeing him in Dodger blue.

Ugh, Matt Morris? Ugh. I hope not.

Benoit might be interesting, and cheaper than Dotel, I'd wager. But I still think the Dodgers need depth for SP, not relief - and I don't know which SPs are available that would be much of an improvement over the Young Frankensteins we're throwing out there now. But maybe there are some available that we - and Ken Rosenthal - just don't know about yet.

93 It is indeed odd. I wonder if Frank McCourt knows about the trade deadline? (Okay, I'm pretty sure he does.) Maybe it's meant as a distraction while the Dodgers quietly announce a trade.

93
Maybe because we are not going to do anything at the deadline or trade prospects and he wants to look good?

98 Whether its a middle reliever or a middling starter, we're going to do something.

84 Huh. According to the KC Star, "the Royals appeared to ready to trade veteran closer Octavio Dotel to the Atlanta Braves on Monday afternoon for right-handed starter Kyle Davies." Huh.

What do you suppose it would take to get Javier Vázquez? I thought the White Sox were ready to have a fire sale.

Buster Olney says the Dodgers and Yankees "continue to discuss" a Betemit for Proctor swap. The Yanks have wanted Betemit for awhile -- apparently they would stick him at 1B -- so this is probably a New York leak. I wouldn't mind having Proctor but I don't know that he's worth Betemit, especially with both Kent and Nomar getting older and more likely to get hurt (like Kent did yesterday).

101-Vazquez has a no-trade clause to all NL West and AL West clubs.

100 Kyle Davies? We can match that offer!

Betemit at first base?? Proctor? My head hurts. Wake me up on Wednesday.

102-I wouldn't mind trading Betemit if that gets LaRoche up here sooner.

Heck, how about trading Betemit back to the Braves for Kyle Davies? We need a starter. They regret trading Betemit.

92 - Just came across this.

"Weisman has no sense of humor."

http://dodgers.cc/discussion/109/

From Gurnick's latest mailbag, and presented here without comment:

Why does Grady Little give so much playing time to Juan Pierre when the statistics for Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp are better?
-- Steve F., Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.

Let's look past the obvious answer -- that the team is in first place the way he's doing it -- and understand why. For one thing, the Dodgers didn't give Pierre $44 million so they could sit him on the bench. Whether you like Pierre's game or not, accept the fact that Dodgers management like it enough to give him a five-year deal. It also seems that Pierre's horrible April left a lasting impression on fans who haven't really noticed that for the last couple of months he's pretty much done what the Dodgers were hoping he'd do. When Rafael Furcal is also hitting, the double leadoff weapon has been very successful. A bigger problem is the aftermath of Furcal's ankle sprain from Spring Training, which has never healed and clearly has diminished his offensive strengths. It seems that every time he starts looking like his normal self, he gets another twinge in the ankle.

103 Really? Is the additional airtime to see family and friends in Puerto Rico really that big a deal for him?

102
That makes perfect sense. Davies was one of the top Brave prospects under Moore so he knows him better then anyone. He hasn't panned out but does have the stuff to be a successful major league starting pitcher. This is exactly what KC needs, so this is a rumor I'd believe. Moore would rather take a chance on what he knows then on what his scouts are telling him about other teams prospects.

108
On the other hand, I do have a sense of humor!

112 On the other hand, you're no fun. At least, I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Having contributed a few times to this thread, it behooves me to mention that I mourn the passing of Bill Walsh. He made watching the NFL a lot more fun.

108 Nice start. They've already blown their credibility.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Jon has no sense of humor. I would say, though, that humor is not the primary purpose of his writing on Dodger Thoughts. I would also add that in those cases where he must choose between serious and funny in reporting news, it is not uncommon for him to choose the former.

115 - Well, I don't know if my sense of humor comes across in many of my main blog posts, as much as it has in my appearances on Carson. It's true what they say - there is no bigger thrill than being invited to sit down on the couch across from Johnny.

On the other hand, you're no fun

I believe the parlance is "Then again, (Bob's) no fun".

Growing up in the Bay Area, it was easy to be a Niners fan. (The first football game I remember watching all the way through was the 1984 Super Bowl). And Walsh was the centerpiece to it all -- even after he left and Seifert took over the job. Despite his flaws, he essentially created the Niner dynasty, and was such an ambassador to the game in his later years. I'll miss him.

The best sports year of my life as a fan was 1988, when the Dodgers had their miracle year and the Niners followed with The Drive against the Bengals in the Super Bowl.

My guess is, they're saying that because Jon is relatively stern about the tone on the site. No swearing = no humor, in their math, maybe.

This site's a LOL a minute for me; sorry they're missing out.

118 I stand corrected.

32 -- I think you meant Ingmar Bergman, the director, not Ingrid, the actress.

I consider Betemit expendable. We have Abreu and Hu behind Kent. Trading Betemit clears the way for LaRoche, who has finally picked up his game. And I am really anxious to watch Hu in a Dodger uniform.

That said, I would want value in return. Proctor and Farnsworth are both failed relievers for a team that, like the Dodgers, is seeking relief help. Even up is not appealing. Either of those guys, plus a mid-level pitching prospect, might get it done.

116 "Sense of humor" is not the same as "Throwing out inane and ludicrous statements in a desperate attempt to be funny, which very often fails miserably". That's where I come in.

To say Jon has "no sense of humor" is just a patently false statement.

120 - The part where someone says all I do are statistical-based posts is much more of a bummer to me than saying I don't have a sense of humor. You could easily miss whatever jokes I try to make - but if you're not seeing the non-stat posts, I feel you're missing a large part of Dodger Thoughts.

In any case, I agree with you - the humor among the commenters is so good here that I don't even need to be funny.

Can't think of a humorous way to bring this up, but I imagine there's no joy at Staples today with the announcement that Garnett was snagged by the Celts.

120 - This site's a LOL a minute for me

I agree, and I figure I don't even get, maybe, half the jokes in the comments either :)

125 Wow! Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and KG on the same team? That's 3/5 of an all-star team. At the very least they should be entertaining, if not competitive.

I'd bet there are few readers who get all of the jokes embedded in Jon's post titles, but if you're not seeing at least some of those, you're just not reading his site.

This current post not necessarily being the best of examples.

I guess, in fairness, Jon does fall short in the important "mocking the dead" category. He could make more of an effort there.

125
Not like most of us ever really expected to see KG on the Lakers. I am just waiting for us to start rebuilding in two years.

122 -- Yes, Betemit is expendable. On the Dodgers of the present, he is a useful pinch hitter and back-up. On the Dodgers of the future, he would be a useful pinch hitter and back-up. He is not going to block LaRoche at 3B, and the people here who keep touting him as a 2B replacement for Kent over Abreu are trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

If all we lose is Betemit before tomorrow's trade deadline, I'll be relieved, but not exactly happy, because much like last year with the Guzman trade, we will almost certainly be getting something we don't need in the first place. Meloan can pitch the 7th inning, and it is getting irritating that Colletti doesn't seem to get that.

[130] i think the problem is more like they're trying to make a round man fit a square base :)

Betemit is expendable because of how he is used, not because of his actual performance. As far as I'm concerned, he's more valuable than Nomar, Martinez, and Abreu, yet his place on the roster seems the least secure.

Broken record

sabermetrically sound, if but a bit weismandish in humor:

Ichiro Suzuki became the third-fastest player in major league history to reach 1,500 hits. "Unless I get to 1,500, I can't get 1,501," said Suzuki

If they can't find the humor in Bill Walsh dying, then I guess they do need their own blog.

Our favorite ex-Dodgers is available for the HOF in 2008.

Per Mr. Neyer of ESPN
• Delino DeShields stole 463 bases, which sure seems like a lot … but that's just 45th best in major league history, and anyway DeShields was never an All-Star.

Weisman may not have a sense of humor, but his sense of vengeance is intact--the site Mr. Big Funny was plugging is 404.

133 Ichiro may be the best quote in baseball.

135 - Delino is a perfect choice for my "what hat will he wear" series.

[109] Dodgers didn't give Pierre $44 million so they could sit him on the bench.

i don't want to get into the lunacy of that statement.

133 - I can't get around the fact that 2 others got 1500 hits faster than Ichiro.

128 The only sound conclusion is that those who are criticizing Jon don't get any of the jokes here.

132
We shall find out tomorrow but I think the Dodgers value Betemit more then you think they do. If Ned had a do over I'm sure he'd have passed on Nomar and given the 1st and 3rd jobs to Loney and Betemit.
If we hadn't been watching Jeff Kent play 2nd for the last 3 years I'd agree with Canuck but if Kent can be allowed to play 2nd base then I don't see it as far fetched to think the one time SS can play 2nd base even if he has gained 25 pounds since those AAA days. It all comes down to if he can turn the duece.

138
Hey, was that a joke?

Betemit could be a goner, but I think it's as likely that Abreu is traded to the Twins for pitching.

Any reason to think the Yankees would want Nomar?

I'm offended. I think I'm far better example of a humorless stat machine than Jon is.

137 Best. Quote. Ever.

On Tiger Woods' athleticism: "Tiger is a great golfer, but ... when you say athlete, I think of Carl Lewis. When you talk about (golfers or race-car drivers), I don't want to see them run. It's the same if you were to meet a beautiful girl and go bowling. If she's an ugly bowler, you are going to be disappointed."

I have absolutely no idea what that means, but it's still fantastic.

I think I'm far better example of a humorless stat machine than Jon is

Me too.

56 One thing if we got Odalis back it wouldn't cost us anymore money since we're paying his salary anyway....

147- Don't say that; you're not really a stat machine. . .

Note of urgency: Roberto Hernandez is in our bullpen, Tomko is in in our rotation, and we don't know the status of Lowe's injury. Hey, but so long as we still have Betemit when tomorrow is over, I guess we're fine, right?

138 The "What Hat . . ." post is one of the funniest things I've read in a while. If its going to be a series, as you suggest, I'm psyched. That said, it may be a long time before I find any humor in Delino DeShields.

Too bad about Walsh's passing -- he was a heck of a coach, and this comes from a guy who loved the Rams back in the '80s.

Of course, I hardly need to point out that he had a Cal pedigree, which no doubt accounts for his later success with the 49ers and [cough] whatever other teams [cough] he may have slummed with...

Don't say that; you're not really a stat machine. . .

Hey: I love pretty, pretty numbers as much as the next guy...!

150-Hernandez could easily be replaced with Meloan, and if Betamit's net return were Scott Proctor, how is that really an upgrade over Brett Tomko? Or DJ Houlton, or Eric Stults, neither of whom excite me, but the issue remains, what kind of return is legitimately available? Unless it's a legitimately-talented, young starting pitcher, I suspect a trade would be a mistake.

Tim MacMahon of the Dallas Morning News Rangers blog:

This trade doesn't make you say "Wow!" like a James Loney-Clayton Kershaw-Andre Ethier deal.

Listen up, nitwit. The Dodger deal makes you say "wow" because it's a ridiculously stupid fantasy trade. If the Marlins gave us Cabrera, and we gave a tennis racquet, I would say "wow" too.

Bill Walsh got his first start as Al Davis's assistant coach and they remained good friends and confidants. Talk about opposites attract.

Possible Proctor-for-Betemit dealposted: Monday, July 30, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

The Dodgers and Yankees continue to discuss a possible swap of pitcher Scott Proctor for infielder Wilson Betemit, a deal that would fill holes for both teams. Betemit, who just turned 27, could be used at first base by the Yankees, and give them some positional alternatives should Alex Rodriguez opt-out at the end of the season.

The Yankees tried to acquire Betemit, who is currently hitting .231 with 10 homers, from Atlanta last season. Proctor, a former prospect with the Dodgers, would give Los Angeles some help in middle relief. He is 2-5 with a 3.81, in a season in which he has again shouldered a heavy workload for the Yankees.

Earlier on Monday, the Dodgers were told that they fell short in their attempt to trade for Kansas City reliever Octavio Dotel. If the Yankees are unsuccessful in their pursuit of Betemit, they may complete a deal for Oakland first baseman Dan Johnson, or simply decide to stick with Andy Phillips as their first baseman for the immediate future....

130. Well said Canuck, can I quote you on that one too?
vr, Xei

154 Garland is an upgrade over Tomko, Houlton and Stults. He's not free and he's not young, but his stats would look a lot better in the NL West.

There's a certain symmetry to trading Betemit for another middle reliever who isn't good. But symmetry can be overrated.

146 For my money, no one will ever replace Doug Glanville in the quote department. YMMV, but... with stuff like this, can we get him a job in the broadcast booth?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1201283.html

I'll believe a Proctor-for-Betemit deal when I see it. But I'll submit the following to the Irony Committee for premature consideration:

"Colletti undoes arguably best trade yet by trading good-hitting thirdbaseman (whom he acquired in exchange for a Middle Reliever) for a Middle Reliever."

With all due caveats and cautions and whatnot, Post beat writer just posted this:

"Well, Cordero and Rauch are still the names out there most intensely right now. A new club (which I'll leave unidentified for now (maybe later tonight or when the $.35 edition comes out) hopped on a plane to see them both Saturday and Sunday at Shea Stadium. One person with knowledge of the Nationals' situation I spoke to absolutely believes some sort of deal will happen, and he handicapped Rauch as the most likely to go. When I asked whether it'd be for established major leaguers or prospects, the person said: 'Prospects. Absolutely, prospects.'"

163
On ESPNews today they said that no one wants to deal with Bowden because his demands are too ridiculous.

164 - Tommy Lasorda can't come to your hotel room every time you ask for him, Bowdy.

Let's say the Dodgers make no trades. What's their final record? Would they get into the playoffs?

160 For perfect symmetry, maybe we could go for Willy Aybar as a throw-in? There's a "what hat will he wear" candidate!

At least Rauch spells his first name the right way.

158 -- Okay, but I have to ask, are you really re-posting all this stuff I say? You aren't asking to quote anybody else.

I still liked my Betemit for Kyle Davies offer - symmetrical, and better for the Dodgers. But obviously that's not gonna happen.

Argh, now the Braves are asking after Bronson Arroyo. (according to Tim Brown on Yahoo) Someone stop them!

165 is another example of the humorless Jon making a brilliant joke that goes over my head. Either that, or Lasorda was more involved in that call-girl ring than I realized.

Can I quote 169 in my blog?

It will be fun to see where Gagne ends up if he is, in fact, traded.

171 Arroyo is somebody who would be worth giving up a couple of real prospects for. What are the Braves supposedly offering?

129 Why think of rebuilding in 2 years? As I said last year, think outside the box, and so with all healthy the Lakers could put Kwame, Mihm, and Bynum up front with Kobe and Lamar in the backcourt. Which other team has a guard that can defend Lamar? That's 7'0", 7'0", and 6'11" across the front and Kobe and our new 6'10" point guard in the back. As I said, I'd really like to see how some would defend against that. And what would our rebounding be like? Kobe even gets cuts some slack, since with the other 4, no real reason for him to have to pound inside for the rebound, and we'll otherwise have to have somebody back to stop any attempt at fast break by our worthy opponents. So the question becomes, why did we sign Cook to an extension when we need to get rid of him?

As you can otherwise imagine, when 2 of the big fellas need a rest, well, to use just the one scenario, Lamar moves back down low, Walton comes in, and whoever you like can fill in for Lamar at point, presumably, one DFish. Oh, the posited lineup would also allow Phil to indulge his long held desire to not have to bring the young ones [Farmar and Crittenton] along too quickly. And thank the Lord that Mihm is an athletic 7'0" and can hit the mid-range jumper from just beyond the stripe [so we've got our mid-range and outside shooting in the triangle with Kobe, Lamar and Mihm].

172 Back in the Paul DePodesta days, Bowden refused to start a meeting with the Dodgers unless Lasorda was present in the hotel room where they were meeting.

Does anybody think it's possible that the Dodgers could try to re-sign Gagne this winter, given Saito's age and balky arm?

I guess it would depend on two things:
1) Gagne's willingness to be the setup man.
2) How committed Colletti and Boras are to their pissing contest.

177 - It was the Dan Evans days. Remember "Danny"?

174 - I didn't realize Gagne had a limited no-trade clause. He can go to either of the NY teams without his blessing.

174 If by fun you mean pitching for the Yankees, I think I'll pass on that one.

175 Brown doesn't say. The MLBTraderumors guy imagines Jo-Jo Reyes and/or Yunel Escobar would have to be involved, "because they're running out of prospects." But that's all just conjecture at this point. I'd go after Arroyo in a heartbeat.

165 If you had any doubt, I bring that up once a week with my Nationals friends.

And I scowl.

hopefully Ned's scouting of Meloan stops him from giving up perfectly decent players for middle relief.

Apparently Seattle offered Wladimir Balentien to KC for Dotel. I know KC is long on hitters and short on pitchers, but wow I'm not sure how you can turn Seattle's offer down.

And Seattle dodged a major bullet there.

184 Unless of course he's contemplating trading an unproven reliever for a proven reliever.

181 I'd say the bigger problem is if the Mets get him and he shoves it down our throats in the playoffs. If we make the playoffs.

176
Because in two years Kobe will opt out.

169. Your posts are very good, plus I am having some fun with you. :)
vr, Xei

Might the success of Marlon Anderson last year make Ned more inclined to make another deal with Bowden?

190 - Only if he can guarantee a month's worth of 1.200 OPS in exchange for a throw-away prospect again.

Alternatively, he might think Ned "owes him one".

190

jhonny Nunez has decent stats down in Low A ball.

Oh crap, Kershaw just came out of the Loons game after one inning pitched. I turned on the Gameday Audio a couple minutes ago, but they haven't said yet what the injury was.

Or maybe it's not an injury, but a trade. Which would be even worse.

193 Things like this are why he doesn't exist.

The Minotaur cannot get hurt because it is a mythical figure. Not real.

194 Stop saying these things!

189 -- I thought from the start that you were "having a laugh," but I thought it would be rude to come right out and accuse you of that, so I thought I should play along -- up to a point.

Eric, are they saying anything on the Loons broadcast?

198 So far, they are too busy interviewing the local college soccer coach to bother with the baseball game going on.

Maybe they traded Kershaw to the Rangers for Evan Grant. Or they did in this really weird dream I had.

He probably pulled a muscle or something.

199
I guess they went to the Houston Astro School of Broadcasting.

Oh no, they just said his locker was just cleaned out!

Is it time to panic now?

202 - You have got to be kidding me.

202 He's probably been promoted.

Also, NOT. REAL.

199 201 In fairness, it isn't every day that the followers of one of the most influential people in Los Angeles are hinging on every word spoken by a radio broadcaster in Midland, Michigan. He's choking. It happens to the best of us.

202 Not funny!

This had better be big. HUGE.

just kidding...im not listening :)

Maybe they're calling him up????

Don't worry guys he is probably just hurt.

D'oh!

209 - Oh, Nate, that's not good. I trust you.

209 - Dude. People are in a very fragile state here.

209. duh!
vr, Xei

209 From you of all people. This has been noted for future punishment.

202, paid off by 209, is awesome.

BRAVO!!!!

(and only because you came clean after an appropriately limited period)

212

I know I'm sorry. Like Greg Brock said though, Kershaw is just one of those players that can't be traded because well, he's not real yet.

209
Name: Nate Purcell
Status: minus four trillion
Condition: On Notice

Rule 14 violation!

Uh, this sounds bad. Really bad.

Unless it's Kershaw for Kazmir, then maybe not so much.

220 Remind me -- what's rule 14?

And rule 13?

For future reference.

220 - You mean Double-Secret Rule 14 violation?

Rule 14?

Even before it was clear Nate was joking, I actually didn't panic - I just thought he'd been promoted. Obviously nerves will be less fragile here on Wednesday.

I got a little excited there too. To let go of someone like Kershaw means someone intriguing is coming back.

Why would they pull him out mid-game to promote him?

Isn't the day Kershaw cleans out his locker due to a pending trade the day we're supposed to all key in the secret code and then take the black capsule?

225

Farnsworth is intriguing. Although a different kind of intriguing then what you would want.

227

LOL

This is why we can't have nice things.

Still no update? Are these commentators even in the same state?

Rule 14 is a Kershaw rule that I'm just making up.

I can't print what Rule 13 is without violating Rule 13, but let's just say it involves not saying that you just XXXXXX a little in your mouth.

We should probably go over the Minotaur Traded contingency plan again. Code Black has never had to be issued and we only have one chance at it people!

Lost in all of nate's zaniness - woo hoo Kershaw may be hurt. Happy, happy, joy, joy.

232 Ah, yes. THAT rule 13. I believe I was the commenter that was the straw broke that particular camel's back.

Rule 14: Thou shalt not imply that Kershaw is real or that his locker is empty, for verily, Jon will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger.

The first thing to know about Rule 13. You do not talk about Rule 13!

I thought Jon had no sense of anger?

from tim brown...

The Tampa Bay Devil Rays are getting a lot of calls on Al Reyes and Dan Wheeler. The Seattle Mariners and Los Angeles Dodgers are among the inquirers.

haha, back to the well!

LaRoche better be in the Vegas lineup or I'll freak out.

There's really no 24 hour period in internet baseball land quite like this one.

Reyes and Wheeler sound like a lounge act.

I hope Ned learned from Baez.

With Dewitt's two ABs today, he now only has 5 Ks in 58ABs while in AA.

that is impressive. the one walk...not so much.

The Loons announcer continues to ignore the elephant in the room. Which leads the paranoid side of me to believe that he is under orders not to say anything about whatever it is.

244

you should call up the Loons demanding quick answers.

989-837-2255

I just wrote a response to Nate's #209 that wouldn't go through, so I assume there is something in this site's software that screens out threats of grave bodily harm. Oddly, that would not have been proscribed by any of Jon's posted rules.

What a bunch of Loons.

In other news, 31st round pick Rafael Thomas has decided to turn down the Dodgers' offer and will attend Oklahoma State.

http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6856721&nav=2FH5

If he's traded, and if he's traded for a middle reliever, and if Plaschke lauds that Kershaw-for-middle-reliever trade tomorrow morning, then I am going to go to my garage, take out my sledgehammer, and destroy something.

I hope Kershaw doesn't turn out to be McCourt's charitable donation tomorrow at 4:00.

I'm going to dinner with friends, where baseball and trades and Minotaurs will not be discussed. I hope we talk about puppies and rainbows and happy things.

Take care

247 - Rule 2 should cover that.

I'm switching over to the opponents broadcast, since they are probably not under the gag order.

The opponent, by the way, is the Clinton Lumberkings, Class A affiliate of... wait for it... the Texas Rangers.

I am not worried about trading Kershaw to the Rangers. The only way we trade him is if we get a young pitcher in return. I would just be worried that pitcher is Dontrelle Willis.

I'm more worried about Kershaw being hurt. There's no way the Dodgers would trade him unless they are getting Miggy Cabrera--which aint happening.

255

Less Willis...
...Macht Snell.

Please let Kershaw being suffering from a case of Brad Penny cramps.

257 Or Jeff Niemann? He also was removed from his start today, albeit in the middle of the first batter's AB (thus it was almost assuredly due to injury).

should i get a Mac Notebook?

I've never rooted harder for a blister diagnosis before in my life

261 If it were an injury as minor as a blister, wouldn't we have heard? I can see why the announcers would be mum about a major injury or a trade, but a blister? Doesn't make sense to me.

I fear this is Ned's panic move. Just hope it's for somebody GREAT.

260

as a mac afficiando, i give you the go ahead, Nate.

If we want an innocuous injury, we shouldn't root for a blister. Those things can derail careers if they're bad enough -- ask Josh Beckett.

265 How about food poisoning? Can we root for that?

UCLA just got a commitment from a 2009 CB. His name is Marlon Pollard and he is an athletic freak. I don't know much else about him.

266 A case of the Mondays? Maybe he just has a case of the Mondays.

This is driving me nuts. I hate Ned.

260. We just got one a few weeks ago. Its faster, lighter and stays cooler than a PC notebook. The screen resolution is also much better but it does take some getting used to--especially if you were raised on a PC.

268 Maybe he decided that today was the day he was going to ask out that girl from Flingers. I hope so.

260 Definitely, if the alternative is a Windows notebook.

I'm thinking Kershaw is being called up to start for the Dodgers, with the oddity of pitching one inning tonight being due to trade uncertainty. Once offers fell through, they made the call.

Either that or they're trading him, Ethier, Hu, and Megrew for Cabrera. They will then make a deal with Weight Watchers to setup an office at Chavez Ravine.

The charitable donation is probably in the memory of Robinson, no?

270

that's what I'm worried about. I mean, I can work apple computers but I've never own one.

Dudes, Kershaw likely just hurt himself. Hopefully it is something minor like a blister. I wish I could listen to the game at work... but I'm not worried he's been traded - I mean, mid-game? C'mon. (Er, right? {{knock on wood}} {{cross fingers}})

Paranoia will destroy-ya...

268 Maybe he just didn't want to miss the syndicated reruns of "Everybody Loves Raymond".

This just in, Dod

Nate, you're smart enough to get used to a Mac. Get one and you'll be happy. The new version of Office for Mac 2008 is due out soon. Kiss the viruses and worms goodbye.

Outside of Tex, I'm not sure whom would warrant a Kershaw that is available though.

According some poster on minorleagueball.com, Kershaw was only scheduled to pitch one inning tonight, but I find that hard to believe.

The opponents' announcer just said that although Kershaw pitched only one inning, there is "no injury, no trade in the works, nothing like that."

Maybe they planned for it to be a one-inning start all along. Yeah, that's it.

278 Well, who has a really good starting pitcher that makes a lot of money and whose team is out of contention?

What is the point of him throwing one inning?

279 280 If that's what it turns out to be, it would make the last 100 posts, in retrospect, high-larious.

Nate, you are generally a fascinating person with a great sense of humor. But you may be very evil. You must remember there are a lot of people on the periphery silently prayer through the next ~ 28 hours.

haha, the DT community definitely does not trust Ned.

Ooh, ooh, I know. A bunch of scouts flew out to see Kershaw pitch so they could include him in trade proposals, and the Dodgers pulled him after one inning just to give them the proverbial finger.

282

To make me pull out all of my hair?

If you're willing to spend as much money as a Mac notebook runs, it's probably a good idea to buy one. If you're not willing to spend that much (and there are many good reasons not to), there's nothing that far wrong with a PC notebook.

282 Especially the night before the trading deadline when they know everyone will be on edge.

Wait, maybe this is an enormous joke on us by the manager of the Loons to see how many people he can freak out by pulling Kershaw and then not saying anything about and then sit back and watch the hysterics that it creates. If that was the plan, I really have to salute him.

288 Aside from Windows itself, Internet Explorer, Outlook, ActiveX, viruses, and worms?

Weren't they talking about a plan to have their young guys skip a start every so often to keep their innings down?

Maybe this is Plan B. Throw one inning instead of a bullpen session.

for the apple aficionados, is it really a significant upgrade from a Macbook to a Macbook pro besides a faster processor and bigger screen?

281 The Twins? If seven games out is enough to make them sellers, that is.

286 Hah hah. Now that'd be an explanation I could appreciate.

286 You want a finger? Dude, I can get you a finger.

The Twins have a 7 percent chance of making the postseason according to BP's playoff odds calculations.

Although the Dodgers and DBacks are tied for first, we have a 62% chance and AZ has only a 19.8% chance.

290- Yeah, aside from that. I haven't had a virus in more than four years. It certainly helps that I don't use IE for anything but updates, and don't use Outlook at all, but none of those things are magic. Using proper security (which is certainly more difficult than with Macs, but not impossible, or all that great an imposition on normal people) measures, running Windows is not that bad. It wasn't worth six hundred dollars extra when I bought this laptop to be spared it, and I don't expect it to be worth that much more money to me when I replace this one.

Old Friend Jason Ungar has gotten into quite the melee over at ItD.

292 Better graphics capabilities if you are going to be doing Photoshop or games. I think the Pros have better build quality too. I would personally not get the 17" version as it is way too heavy for my taste.

I am shocked, shocked to hear that there's a melee going on at ITD.

To add a comment on a deal that was made, well, I appreciate bhsportsguy's attitude towards Juan Pierre, but still, and well, some here want Kemp to play CF, and so why not have simply resigned Lofton and platooned him with Kemp if need be? Kemp could otherwise take over in right when Ethier goes to left to replace a resting Gonzo. Lofton isn't great, but the Indians are contending and apparently believe that Lofton can help when it comes to getting over that proverbial top. And so bhsportsguy is indeed correct re our crying over spilled milk, but still the brain wonders why we couldn't see that Lofton could have done just fine for us this year while opening up more playing time for the kids, and almost forgot, otherwise saved the team millions upon millions of your hard earned but spent on the Dodgers dollars.

By not using Outlook, or anything MS although I'm running Windows, I really make thing difficult and hurt I myself. But it is well worth it!
And here I sit, presumably with some others, hoping for nothing to happen for a day. A sort of vigil.

297 You may be fine with one, but there are massive numbers of PCs that have been turned into zombies, which are then used for spam, DoS attacks, and various other nasty things. I don't recommend anyone get one at this point.

301

If I were a betting man witch i'm not i'd bet Kemp won't play CF for us this year nor the next He's more of a corner outfielder i'm sure people will disagree on that with me but i'm fairly sure of that. Any update on the Kershaw situation you guys have me on the edge of my seat with this!

Seems like Dodgers are having a bad run of health with high-end pitching prospects who are left-handed...Magrew, Miller, Elbert....this Kershaw injury needs to be minor.

304 Oh, I think you're right about what WILL happen. Dodger management clearly agrees with you -- if they thought Kemp could handle center, they'd not have signed Pierre. It's a fait accompli.

The question is what SHOULD happen, or should have happened. And I never get tired of that argument... really. I could do this all day.

Oh, look -- I did.

130 et al.

Isn't the fact that Meloan's clock would be started prematurely a major factor in all deliberations?

At some point Meloan needs to be positioned long term for the closer position. Thus his 5 year plan needs to be sync'd up with Broxton's, no?

Am I overthinking?

305

I'm hoping it's a non arm type injury as well.

307 Aren't we past the magic date? Wouldn't the Dodgers be able to keep him the same amount of time if they called him up now vs. September?

310
The boys at the NSA are checking that one over to see what it means.

306

to my naked eye (I could be wrong on this) His first step on contact isn't very good & his routs to balls need a little work. I'm not saying that with hard work he couldn't make him self a better CF'er but at the present time he just can't cut it there.

310 I wonder if it would be obnoxious to suggest yet again that I think this is my dad. Probably, but I can seriously picture him writing every word of that, which is weird, since I have no idea what it means. What is even weirder is that bojangles never responds to our confusion about his posts.

310 Editing suggestions: less jargon, two line breaks between paragraphs, no unnecessary line breaks in the middle of a paragraph. Try to write without any parenthetical statements at all. Express one complete thought in each paragraph.

You may have some good things to say, but no one can tell.

314 Do you use a red pen when you grade papers? I never thought I would, but I've found that my writing tends to blend in too much with my students' when I use black or blue.

314 - Once again, he's not even close to characterizing what I've written in an accurate fashion. And I'm fed up at this point.

316- Thank you. There's never been any there, there.

316 No one cares about what you've written, since you think Drew = 2(Bonds + A-Rod). That's ridiculous, Jon. Just ridiculous.

317 - Some people whom you're not on the same page with, you try to be reasonable with them, and they reciprocate. And other people you try to be reasonable with, and they just go out of their way to be more difficult.

318
And where's the sense of humor...?

320
The Griddle and Catfish Stew are the funny places on Baseball Toaster.

Everybody knows that.

I like to think of myself as the Morty Gunty of the Toaster.

The day Apple deigns to permit the unwashed masses to buy and use their OS on hardware that doesn't have their seal of approval, I'll consider using it. Right now, it's just DeBeers with a better PR agency.

130

i SO feel you Canuck

OK. Time to get back to trade talk. I, for one, am not happy about the prospect of the D's standing pat. I doubt we'll get to 88 wins with this team, and with 2 (and possibly 3) teams vying for the NL West pennant, 88 wins probably won't cut it.

322
I use a special "Conflict Mac." Djimon Honsou found it and Leonardo DiCaprio helped get it for me.

319- You put up with much more when it's directed at you than you would if it were directed at some random commenter.

I should have said with 2 (and possibly 3) OTHER teams vying....

325 Yeah, we know already. We read Jennifer Connelly's article. Your name got mentioned.

324 What sort of trade would you suggest? What could put them over the top?

329 I'm keen on the idea of getting Arroyo as a SP. I don't know of any prospect that I'd like better. He's well over VORP.

330 I doubt that Krivski would trade a starter he's obviously high on, since he just signed him to an extension, when his team has no pitching.

If he did, it would take a lot more than what Bronson Arroyo is worth to get him.

He's well over VORP

What does that mean?

What do you trade to get Arroyo?

why would the Reds trade Arroyo? He's got a crazy low contract for the next 2 years and just prior to the season signed a reasonable extension through 2010.

I've been busy today and got on Dodger Thoughts late, and I'm sad that I missed post 310. I'm sure it was rightfully deleted, but my mind needed the exercise of reading a bojangles post.

Using Ken Gurnick logic, since the Dodgers are in first place with Pierre playing everyday and should thus not even temporarily sit him, then the Dodgers shouldn't trade anyone tomorrow since they are in first place with this team, so there is no reason to change anything. Silver lining, meet cloud!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2955237

Apparently, we're "seriously" pursuing Oakland A's starter Joe Blanton. Grain of salt, and all that.

333 You are probably right. Yet, weren't the Dodgers considering a Penny for Rios trade over the off-season? He was also an SP signed for well below market who was slumping.

The Dodgers and Athletics have been talking about a package of three frontline prospects for Blanton, and on Monday night, they were in the process of mixing and matching possible combinations

The As are one team I don't want Ned trading with. It's not bound to end well.

337 You'd rather have had Milton Bradley over the past 2 seasons than Ethier?

"The Dodgers and Athletics have been talking about a package of three frontline prospects for Blanton, and on Monday night, they were in the process of mixing and matching possible combinations."

Excuse me while I go violate Rule 13.

336 Well right now, Arroyo is pretty much the definition of league average, and we don't have anyone the equivalent of Rios who is expendable.

I don't have a problem with a trade, but I certainly don't want to see a trade just for the sake of making a trade. I won't be at all disappointed if the Dodgers stand pat, just because I don't really see an obvious, viable move out there.

337 Forgive my ignorance. How good is Blanton?

336 See second half of 2006.

337 The first time, whether or not it was intentional, worked out pretty well for us.

337 Ahem... Ethier for Bradley/Perez...ahem.

Well, at least Blanton is good and I would still get to see our prospects lol.

341 He made a nice leap forward in his strikeout rate this year, and pretty much became the pitcher I liked when he first came up. I'd compare him to good Odalis since he doesn't throw hard, but gets enough strikeouts and doesn't walk anyone.

Blanton is scheduled to pitch tonight, for whatever it's worth.

Beane would love Betemit. How about Betemit, Hu, Meloan for Blanton?

343 Ahem. The A's took advantage of us. We let go of Antonio Perez also.

Yeah, I think Odalis is a good comparison for Blanton, in that he can be very good, but has historically had strikeout rates that make him a likely candidate for a complete collapse.

Blanton has allowed 10+ hits in each of his last 4 starts.

347 how about I just beat myself for a week with a kenpo stick.

Both of those are equally as painful.

350 That's why we have some chance of getting him. He's talented and can miss more bats than our current #4 or #5.

345 That was more in April. Since then he's tapered down to his career norm of 5 k/9. He's an innings eater more or less.

348
Antonio Perez, who's that?

315 I usually use a blue pen, but there are times when I've used red. It makes me feel like I am being too harsh when I see so much red.

The A's would have little use for Betemit, other than in a bench role like the one he has with us. They have a third baseman signed to a long-term contract, and Beane's recent reemphasis on defense probably means he couldn't play SS or 2B even for the A's. Betemit and Chavez on the same roster wouldn't work well; there would be no platoon possibilities since both need to be kept away from lefties.

Oakland doesn't need 3B, OF, or 1B (with Barton on the way). They need a 2B and SS pretty badly, so I'd assume Hu and Abreu are two of the players being discussed.

Blanton has gotten roughed up a bit the last few games, but has the stuff to give us a good 6-7 innings a start. I would offer Betemit/Young only. If Beane wants a 3rd prospect, Oakland needs to cough up maybe a K. Calero.

Loons announcer: "There's nothing physically wrong with Kershaw; the Dodgers just wanted to give him a rest and keep his innings total down."

Meanwhile, Kershaw takes the loss in the game, and hasn't won a game in almost 2 months.

Well Chavez is not playing tonite, and I know that Chavez has been a dissappointment so far.

Also, for you conspiracy theorists, Hu, LaRoche, and Young are all in the Vegas starting lineup.

And Blanton is on the mound. Maybe he'll pitch an obligatory one inning.

356

Actually, I think Betemit is a great fit for Oakland. Oakland's problem this year has been offense, and Betemit has been a more productive offensive player than everyone on the Oakland infield, including Eric Chavez. I think Beane would be willing to downgrade the defense at SS if it meant better offense. Bobby Crosby has been awful this year.

What is a "frontline prospect?" Is that different from a "high ceiling prospect?"

Specifically, would this suggest the prospects are in the front of the line to go to the major leagues (i.e. LaRoche, Abreu, Meloan), or is it a more cosmic description of their supreme excellence, regardless of readiness?

Who is more "frontline?" Hu or DeJesus? Meloan or Kershaw?

Just so I know what to prepare myself for.

357 -- Yes, Betemit and Young is all I would give up for Blanton. Not a bad guy to have, I just wouldn't give up much for him. Today at Athletics Nation an A's fan suggested Blanton plus Crosby plus Kennedy for Chin-Lung Hu. I wouldn't give up Hu for Blanton, and I don't even want Crosby or Kennedy.

Why couldn't Blanton pitch for Minnesota or Cincy? There's just no way this can end well. LaRoche could be Ryan Braun at best with a downside of Youkilis. Joe Blanton is Kirk Rueter.

The Angels kill Joe Blanton. If there were no such thing as Angels, Blanton would have a more impressive record.

Which is something to keep in mind, since Bud Selig insists that we play six games against the Angels every year.

Actually, a Frontline prospect is someone being groomed to take over for David Fanning.

Maybe tonite is Blanton's final auditon for Ned? Blanton's next available start after tonite would probably be Saturday, isn't that when Lowe is currently penciled in for? If Lowe is healthy?

354 See post 343.

If the Dodgers are going to trade with the A's, why not go after Rich Hardin? He would fit right in.

Kuo, Tsao, Brazabon, Wolf, and Schmidt for Hardin.

Blanton is not a free agent until after 2010. Colletti has said before he does not have a problem with giving up top prospects for "a player we can keep a while." Given that nobody ever gives up young starting pitching even with Blanton's not-terrible numbers, Beane is going to ask for the moon for Blanton, and I am getting worried that Colletti will cave. There is no way that Beane would accept Betemit and Young and somebody else who isn't in our plans in exchange for Blanton.

ew. I really hate Blanton's motion. Gammons says a trade is still unlikely.

Maybe this is all a ploy to bring back Piazza.

You all sound so hysterical!

370

I don't think Coletti would go after an injury-prone pitcher like Hardin with the injury problems that have struck our team.

Blanton, huh. I was almost desperate enough to hope the Dodgers would inquire about Joe Kennedy. Blanton would be better than any of the Dodgers 4th or 5th starters, that's for sure. But yeah, I don't see the A's trading him at all. (But I could see them interested in Betemit and Hu...)

Hm.

On a minor note I'd like to pick up Will Ledesma who was DFA'd today by the Braves.

I suggested a few weeks ago that Betemit seemed like a guy the As might be interested in, assuming they could get rid of Chavez.

Did I hear Kruk just say that Maddux was a "power pitcher" in his prime? Huh?

The Pedro Guerrero story on The Big Lead today is classic. I won't link to it since it's not family friendly.

Really? Ledezma's looked pretty horrible to me this year. We'd be better off tossing Erics Hull or Stults out there imho.

This was the mlbtraderumors guy's summary of the Blanton talk:
"According to ESPN's Buster Olney, the Dodgers are going after 26 year-old Oakland starter Joe Blanton. Blanton would add some stability and would find the NL to his liking.

The discussion is centered around three frontline prospects going to Oakland. Olney names Andy LaRoche, Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, and Jonathan Meloan as possibilities. I'm thinking the A's wouldn't mind Chin-Lung Hu either. [my note: just because those names are mentioned doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't mean Beane would be asking for most of them.]

It figured that Billy Beane would see what Blanton might bring in a market devoid of decent starting pitchers."

Hu, Betemit and some not top prospect or a veteran, for Blanton. That's my final offer.

379 well, he said he was a power pitcher when he first came up, not his prime. I'm not sure that makes it any more accurate.

sitting back hoping the Dodgers don't do anything dumb is pretty hard on the nerves i must say.

379 Maybe Maddux looked that way to Kruk when he batted against him.

380 wow. just... wow.

Joe Blanton is a solid pitcher. I shudder to think what a solid 26 yr old pitcher under club control for 3-4 more years is worth on the trading market.

You know, I've been looking over the team statistics, and I'm struck by how good our offense has been doing, for the most part. Aside from Pierre, Furcal, and Garciaparra, we don't have any players that receive significant playing time with OPSes under 800.

Reading the ItD spat, now. I like the guy who capitalizes every letter of BLOG. If he'd just go with B.L.O.G., it'd be perfect.

How about B*L*O*G*? (But that's only if we're all going to then take a black capsule.)

388 That was my favorite part as well. Honestly, I can barely read the comments over there any more. Reading Webspeak makes my eyes bleed.

I like Blanton too.
He pitches lots of innings, doest walk people, and doesnt give up homers.
Whether the homer part maintains switching leagues will determine if he's going to be successful.

I wouldnt have a problem dealing any of our prospects not named LaRoche, Billingsley, Kemp, Kershaw.

391

those are the guys Beane is probably asking for!

The thing is though----an actual solid argument could be made for dealing Kershaw for Blanton.

#1. Blanton will likely be the better pitcher for at least the next 3 seasons at the mlb level, considering Kershaw's age.

#2. Projecting 4yrs is risky, given all the injuries pitchers could incur.

i dont think dealing Kershaw for Blanton would be a Liriano/Nathan/Bonser for AJ thing at all. Bc Blanton has value, unlike some average catcher.

LaRoche/Ethier, Meloan and Hu/Young for Blanton

Not to say I'm advocating Kershaw for Blanton, but I wouldnt freak out if it happened.

IMO it would be all about managing risk.
Dodgers are a big market club, and they can afford to buy an ace in free agency. Unlike a small market club, whom pretty much have to keep hold of their prospects and hope one turns into an Ace.

If Blanton is a #3 starter (and I'd consider him that in the NL), dealing a current #3 for a potential #2/#1 4yrs down the road seems fair.

You're forgetting there's no such player called Kershaw. He's only The Minotaur. You cannot deal a Minotaur. It only makes the Gods angry!

And no, don't deal Meloan either!

They shouldn't give up Kemp, Loney, Billz (obviously). Everyone else should be considered. Blanton would be very solid in Dodger Stadium and would be under our control for 3 years. We could probably even sign him for 3 years for $18 million with an option for $9 million 4th year. Drool

395 I too am ok with dealing Kershaw... but two prospects along with that would be nuts. Maybe Kershaw and Hu... but I doubt Beane bites on that.

393

An argument could also be made that Blanton is a pitcher whose peripherals do not suggest that he can maintain his success in the future.

Also consider Beane's sucess dealing pitchers in the past. I'd suggest that Beane's greatest trait as a GM is not recognizing offensive talent, but dealing with his pitching staff. He knew when to get rid of Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. He knew to bring in Haren. If he wants Kershaw, we should thus want to keep Kershaw.

399 Congratulations on being the first one this year to use the Groucho Marx logic at the annual trade deadline. :) I love that quote.

400 Outside of Billy Beane, I'd be willing to trade with anybody. Inside of Billy Beane, it's too dark to read.

The batting averages for the first five hitters in the Vegas lineup tonight are .339/.383/.347/.340/.318.

401 I would argue that if I could be certain that our GM would not ever make one-sided boneheaded deals. I understand what you are saying, but you deal with the party that has the goods. Now what you pay for the goods is up to how smart you can be during the negotiations process. But here is the bigger problem... Oakland would be perfectly ok with no deal whereas the Dodgers have already shown desperation.

With 17hrs to go, it'll be great to keep all of our prospects, but, if we are to make a legit run this year, we need an upgrade to our wounded SP's. I can see Kershaw going despite his potential. I can see Hu, Abreu, Houlton and Betemit being dealt.

We keep status quo with the team, and we'll have to pray for no more injuries, and for Tomko and Hendy to not be Tomko and Hendy.

399. Beane has had some forgetable trades involving pitchers at the deadline, though, like Bonderman-for-Lilly and Harang-for-Guillen.

393 -- A "solid" argument can be made for a lot of things that would be bad choices. Only under a regime that has chosen instant gratification at the expense of maximizing talent in the organization over years would your argument find favor. I believe that the talent-maximization-plus-patience strategy is the one most likely to lead to long-term success. One characteristic of a "loser" in life is a chronic disinclination to defer gratification for bigger gain down the road.

I have a trade proposal... Barry Zito and Dave Roberts for Jason Schmidt and Juan Pierre.

405

Sure, but nobody's perfect. He's been building great pitching staffs in Oakland for a while now, so I'd be hesitant to deal pitchers with him.

407

Intriguing, but wouldn't that be a kind of flotsam for jetsam trade?

406 You could also look at it as a calculated gamble, which is probably the way Billy Beane would look at it if he had Kershaw.

Let's say there's a 25% chance Kershaw turns into Steve Carlton, a 25% chance he turns into Teddy Higuera, a 25% chance he turns into Dennys Reyes and a 25% chance he turns into Dan Opperman. Is that more valuable, or less valuable, than a #3 starter who's a known quantity? Teams in certain situations might prefer the relative safety of the guy who is halfway decent and who has a 100% chance of being a major league caliber pitcher, as opposed to 50% or whatever Kershaw's chances are.

I'm not saying I'd trade Kershaw for Blanton. I wouldn't. But I can understand the argument for doing so, and can see that there might be situations in which making a trade like that is preferable.

395 -- There should be a rule against talking about "managing risk" and advising "buying" free agent pitching aces. We already bought an ace. His name is Jason Schmidt. The Giants also bought an ace. His name is Barry Zito. Look around the league. Teams with aces either developed them in-house or "bought low" and the pitchers developed INTO aces (like Santana or Penny). If a minor league pitcher with "ace potential" flames out or just ends up average, have you dug yourself a financial and contractual hole? No. But you're in a huge hole if you "buy" an ace and he gets hurt or declines like Zito has declined. Risk management indeed.

411--Beckett, Dice K, Randy Johnson (earlier), Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Kevin Brown etc etc...Just as many ace pitchers have been bought and performed well for their future teams.

But you're in a huge hole if you "buy" an ace and he gets hurt

That argument can be applied to all free agency though.

Right now, Kershaw has a certain value in which he could be turned into something useful for sure. You could wait, and have him lose value---like EJ, Greg Miller, etc), keep him and hope he does become productive---Billingsley---or trade him for something useful right now.

I think too many people get caught looking at what they are trading, and not what they are getting back. Thats the most important thing.

For a big market team like the Dodgers, it can afford to buy insurance (Blanton), and buy the big market ace pitcher. It doesnt need to put all its hope on 1 pitcher like Kershaw.

Hanley/Sanches for Beckett--sure the Marlins got the better end of that deal.

But the Red Sox needed a good pitcher, and do you really think they are complaining about having Beckett now?

413

I'm sure most Sox fans rather have HanRam then that revolving door of suck at the SS position.

Whether the Dodgers do it with the kids or a late-season acquisition, it cannot approach what Iraq's soccer team did this weekend. That's why I'd rather roll the dice with the kids and see if they can't climb the muontain. Win or lose, emotionally, it's more fun....at least as long as they're in the race. Scully called Aaron's 715th and could call Bonds' record breaker. Who else could be at both I wonder.

413 -- No, they are just complaining about having Lugo now, whom they wouldn't have if they had kept Ramirez. Boy, you threw that one right down the middle of the plate.:)

416 - Does Papelbon stay a starter if they don't get Beckett?

415 - Who else could be at both I wonder

Al Downing? Dusty Baker?

{412} I agree, Kershaw, Houlton, Betemit and D. Young for Blanton and Calero.

We give up Kershaw depsite all the accolades is still in 'A' ball and several years away if he develops into form. Houtlon, we packagae him because no one will take Tomko. Betemit, one less obstacle for LaRoche. D. Young, we already have our platoon of Kemp and Eithier, who'll be our corner outfielders for the forseeable future.

We get Blanton a quality middle of the rotation guy. Calero, a decent mid-releif.
We DFA Hernandez and call up Meloan also.

Our SP:
Penny, Lowe, Billz, Blanton, and Tomko/Hendy.

RP : Saito, Brox, Beimel, Calero, Hull, and Meloan

Game-tying homer for LaRoche.

En fuego!

Dusty for sure. Selig, if he comes out. He was probably at 715.

Apparently Andy LaRoche loves July, so far 2-3 with a home run and 4 RBIs.

"any other NFL QB could have thrown similar 5-yard slant passes to Rice and Taylor with similar success"

This is several hours late, but the 49ers were a perennial top 5 offense under Montana (and Walsh) before Rice and Taylor came along.

420 Unfortunately for Scully, he'll have to do his usual best, if BB' get's the record on our turf! I recall, how he wanted nothing to do with Bonds chase for 756, and espcially hoped he didn't have to be announcing the game.

Maybe Bonds will oblige us with another 0'fer 15?

So let me just make sure I'm getting this -- Kevin Brown is being cited as an example of a very successful free agent signing?

I think the real problem is, you have to be absolutely sure the free agent you're buying is an ace, and not just hoping he'll turn into one because you threw a lot of money at him. Zito, A.J. Burnett, Russ Ortiz, those guys are not aces no matter how much money you give them or how many fluke 20-win seasons they might have had. The Hall-of-Fame, once in a generation pitchers -- those are the guys who you want to throw a lot of money at: Clemens, Pedro, Randy Johnson, Maddux, etc. Santana is one such player who will be coming on the market soon. We should go after him and give him as much money as it takes. If you're signing free agent pitchers, they need to be either extraordinarily good, or extraordinarily cheap. The guys who are neither -- which is most free agent pitchers -- are usually going to be a bad investment.

419 I do think LaRoche's hot streak is making Betemit expendable, I would think that 3B is going to be open next spring no matter who is playing there the rest of the year, if Wilson can be spun for a reliever, so be it, though they lose a lefty bat off the bench (D. Young?). But I think they might want to toss LaRoche into the fire and Nomar (as ToyCannon has pointed out) is playing better since the ASB, so LaRoche could spot start, get some experience and get ready to compete for the job next spring.

405 Bonderman for Lilly is exactly why a Kershaw for Blanton type trade would be terrible. Give up some prospects for Blanton, okay, but not your #1 pitching prospect. I don't care if it's two years down the road.

If the Dodgers do trade Betemit, then they can call up LaRoche to play third and... oh wait, I forgot about Nomar. Never mind.

418 Your welcome!

Am I hearing this right? Dodgers trading anyone of consequence for Blanton? Pass!

Maybe a few Loons players not named Kershaw. Perhaps Zach Hammes.

Other than a trade like that, pass. He is decent, but nothing too special. I'd still rather they ride it out keeping all the major prospects.

424 Easy solution. He can just do the call the same way he did his most famous homerun call. Just be quiet for a couple of minutes and let the crowd tell the story.

525 -- I wouldn't sign Santana or any other "ace" nowadays for a reason that has to be added to the ones I already cited: the demand for length of contract is bound to be unreasonable. I agree with Dan Evans' policy: no contracts longer than three years for pitchers. Schmidt only signed one of those because of his age and now even a one-year deal looks like it would have been too long. Santana isn't signing anything less than a Kevin Brown contract, and no way do I want to see the Dodgers give out another one of those. Too much can go wrong with a pitcher in seven years, or eight, no matter how good a pitcher is now and no matter what his age.

418 Quite possibly the top pitching prospect in baseball and more for a back of the rotation guy and a middle reliever?

Sign me up.

Concerning Nomar's recent hotness, I think we should consider selling high on him. Maybe show his success this month to the Yankees, or somebody. I'm still not convinced that Nomar's turned the corner.

423 - Deleted, just plainly rude.

I think you guys are a little harsh on Norcal-Dodger. He did take his proposition out more than just the initial level, which I appreciate.

If you don't like it, I'd have just gone with a "I don't like that trade, and here's why" approach.

I wouldnt consider Kershaw in the top 10 of major league prospects because he's too far from the majors to project.

A pitcher dominating Class A hitters, is still only dominating Class A hitters. If he puts up that line in AAA, ok he's a top prospect. But not before then.

This is amazing: http://tinyurl.com/2r9z59

Janet Evans and Hank Aaron stand together in . . . something.

436 What pitching prospects would you rank ahead of him at this point?

I'm not a "avoid trading Kershaw at all costs" guy. But if we do, the return better be a top 25 player. There's way too much room to look really dumb by trading him that the return has to be much, much more than a guy who would described "solid" generously like Blanton.

Blanton is probably my favorite A's pitcher to watch right now. Throws strikes, works fast. You don't want Calero; completely unreliable this year.

Blanton's having a bad luck night tonight; three of the Tigers' runs are off bloop hits just over an infielder's head.

436 But Joey, by that logic, you may never get a top prospect pitcher to AAA. You have to keep those guys unless you are overwhelmed with an offer. And Blanton isn't it.

440--Thats true. No trade is risk free. But i'm trading prospects, i'm dealing them when they are in Class A ball where the risk is that much greater that they wont develop.

I guess it all comes down to which teams value what commodity. I personally dont value Class A players very highly, and if another team does--IMO I could take advantage of that.

That doesnt mean to trade all Class A talent, just to not put them on an untouchable list.

Are there fans out there worried that their team will give up favorite prospects for Tomko or Hendrickson or Pierre?

Are the Mets trying to get Stultz from the Dodgers?

Maybe the trade Colletti makes is the reverse of the one that is feared.

439 Watching that, too. Definitely unlucky. I like Blanton. I honestly think, when all is said and done (when the deadline passes), Blanton will still be an A. Beane's probably just testing the winds to see what they could possibly bring back.

Btw, they just filed the story on the Loons' game tonight, with report on Kershaw. Can we officially file this one away now?

http://tinyurl.com/ysnb9u
Kershaw struck out two batters in the first, raising his Midwest League-leading total to 129 in 92 1/3 innings. But because of a mandate from the Los Angeles Dodgers that the top prospect pitch only the first inning, Parrish pulled Kershaw after one.
Parrish said Kershaw will make a full start in his next outing, likely scheduled for Saturday.
"It's just part of the big picture," Parrish said.

UPDATE:

The Dodgers feel the price for Blanton was 'too steep and have moved on'.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2955237&campaign=rss

I will not rest until we all spell "Eric Stults" correctly.

I've put some coffee on.

446 Somewhere, Willy Taveras scoffs.

I didn't think you drank coffee. Or did I imagine that?

Fairly irrelevant, but Kershaw's ranks in the organization in some categories.

ERA: Second (behind Penny)
Strikeouts: Second (behind McDonald)
Home runs allowed: First

Eric Stoltz. There, you happy?

445 That's fine.
Joe Kennedy?
Joe Schlabotnick?
Would you believe two GI Joe dolls and a Sloppy Joe to be named later?

445 -- Well, thank God for that.

434 -- Jon, sorry about #423. It's trade deadline eve and my nerves are shot. I wish I could be like you say you are and just let distressing trade rumors wash over me.

447
That player Eric describes does not exist.

448
Marty, I was the guy who told you to go buy a French press. I get a pound of Kona coffee shipped every month from the Big Island.

General stuff: No harm intended to anyone here who offers no harm to anyone else.

I come from a tradition of rough teasing; I like the give and take. Unfortunately, I don't have time or inclination to participate in short-term dialogue here. That's why, to be fair, I try to post at the end of the day (not always possible) so I'm not teasin' anyone into a response I'm not ready to honor.

Jon, I'm surprised you've missed a kind of playful, hard affection in my uncle used to call buffe a dons (sp?). It's there, if y'wanna see it, if y'have eyes to see.. I think a lot of what you do here is genuinely admirable, and am sorry if I've mistaken how often I have to say so. But some of what you do isn't admirable a'tall, and I wouldn't honor you or anyone else here if I pretended otherwise.

Having sped thru 300-400 just now, I'm gonna guess I was 310. I'm sorry that was deleted - have no idea if/how often that's been done in past, since I really don't check - there were a couple of small laughs, assuming basic affirmation on part of generic, unbiased reader, and an interesting puzzle about the way baseball uses its "stars."

Jon - the quotes were deliberately over the
Marx-brothers top - way past the sanity clause,
so anyone might see it was (or at least intended to be) non-fatal chain-pullin'. Again, I'm sorry you don't see that, but there are lotsa things you and your posse don't see, fairly regularly.

For those who want me to write the way they do, I sympathise - but made it clear a long time ago I don't come here to do that - I come, except in the shorter, strictly baseball bits, to try out voices, rhythms, styles, and often just to get the aging engine started. This is year-long spring training for me (or a mid-season series in Colorado for Grady Little).
It ain't the majors, and as some of you less- antagonized may have noted, for me, it's been a long, long time since the majors were the majors.
Rodent from Dry Place: I have a feeling, since I seem to engender a fair share of anger here
(if tonite's 100 bits tell a story), that it might not warm your cockles, but you are representative of about a dozen guys I am almost always glad to see messaging. Your baseball take is sharp and comprehensive (as is that of the other dozen). I almost always take somethin' good away. Folks who are overwrought when they see my tag, should stop and say a prayer of thanks to you and the dozen, because you make it possible for it to appear a good deal less often. Otherwise, they should do what I do with about a dozen others, when I have a little more time, and knowing what a royal pain I am, pass me by (except for the genuine M's in the crowd, o'course). I promise neither side will go missing the other..

Pellamjr: I am your Dad. This was the only way I could think of to get thru that thick, handsome skull of yours:-).

For those of you who missed 310: Red Sox reported on the lookout for part-time replacement at position they spent $17mil per annum on this off-season.

Jeff Kent projecting 150+ RBIs in last five series, 50-60 in previous five, roughly 100 for season, a trying number from your main driver-guy, especially with predictable dragging pitch staff. We don't share His Lordship's benevolent take about this aging wonder...

Bye for a while....did not want to stir dust in a desert...

Andrew Shimmin: I'd advise you to stay away from Walmarts this side of the divide....

Eric Stults

454
Now what do I do with all the coffee?

If Willy Taveras is spelled wrong, dammit, I don't want to be right.

Keep it hot. You said we all have to spell Stults correctly. I am only the first to respond.

Tonight marks the 4th time in 5 games Blanton gives up 5 earned runs. The other game 4 earned runs.

And they want to give up top prospects? His era last year was 4.82 and he's heading there again this year.

I wouldn't give up anyone of merit for him. Let the A's keep him!

457
I like easily achievable goals.

Thank you for your timeliness Mr. Blanton.

Billy Beane is doing exactly what he should be doing; trying to exploit market scarcity to build his talent base. Trading for Joe Blanton (no more than #3 starter) at the price of multiple frontline prospects is not in our long-term or short-term interest.

This possible deal with Beane is frightening. Ned is in a position of weakness and great vulnerability. The combination of SP injuries, overpayment on recent FA decisions (Schmidt, Pierre, Garciaparra), and high expectations (personal, owner and fans) are creating a nightmare scenario.

I fear there are going to be many unhappy people on this site in the next 24 hours.

452 What supplier do you have it shipped from?

453 Weird. I actually understood 90% of that one. Cool. Uh, I'm going to adjust my medication just a bit.

So, since the Dodgers have been scouting the Pirates heavily, and we know they're not interested in Jack Wilson... what about Damaso Marte? He's a good reliever, even if he is... just a reliever.

Can I ask a question? When was the last time a rumor that involved the Dodgers actually sounded appealing to most Dodger fans?

When was the last time Dodger fans read a trade rumor and said "I sure hope we make that deal!"

Why can't the Dodgers be involved in rumors to get players like a LaRoche or a Kershaw?

Dodgers always seem to be getting screwed in every rumor!

462
http://www.konamountaincoffee.com/index.asp

Tim Russert? He's on the Board of Directors, but I'm not sure if he was on stage Sunday.

Let's go with notorious good guy Ozzie Smith.

I like a local roaster, Jones Coffee in Pasadena. Nice variety of beans they roast on premises, and good prices. I always buy whatever bean is on special. It's 6.50 a pound.

466 Sorry, wrong thread!

464
I think teams that are "buyers" always sound like they're going to get ripped off.

Unless they're the Yankees.

467
But it's not close enough to me. Remember my extraordinarily high opportunity costs!

469 You are right Bob! And usually they do get ripped off.

With much trepidation, I am going to now cease hitting F5 every 3 minutes for the first time in a good 7 hours, and dream of an eventless night in Dodgerland.

Stay strong Neddy. You know what's right; I...gulp...believe in you.

464 -- I think the Ethier-for-Bradley/Perez deal was a rumor before it was a fact. I certainly loved that rumor. At that time, every other rumor was that the Dodgers would get nothing for Bradley, given that Bradley was a nut and every team knew Colletti was under orders from McCourt to get rid of Bradley no matter what, leaving Colletti with no leverage in negotiations.

453 That was much better. I don't agree with a lot of what you said, but at least I understood most of it. My only response: Go Dodgers!

This one is for Jon. The way I want to remember Bill Walsh:

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/07/31/sp-220x293-walsh_stanford.jpg

I've long made a point of never visiting Walmarts in the fifth dimension.

473 I remember it differently. It was assumed Bradley would go somewhere, and it was also assumed we'd get virtually nothing in return, so radioactive was he. When it turned out we got "the Texas League player of the year," it seemed like a good deal.

The gloom and angst seems uncalled-for historically. Last year's deadline deals were decent-to-excellent. Contrary to the image of Colletti at the mercy of crafty GMs, the fact is, we unloaded highly touted prospects who, it turns out, have no upside value at all. Okay, fine, we probably should have gotten Albert Pujols for them rather than Mark Hendrickson, given the outrageous hype they had generated, but in the end, we still got the better of that deal. And I believe the Cubs have DFA'd Izturis, while we got into the playoffs on the strength of Maddux' arm.

If Colletti does anything, it won't be what is rumored, and it won't suck. At worst, it will be value for value. The fact is, the Dodgers need a starting pitcher if they're going to stay in the pennant race and have a chance in the post-season. It might cost us something to get it. Chhhhiiiiillllll....

477 Actually, as I clear the fog away from my head, actually I don't remember it much differently from you. Sorry to seem disputatious.

Marty,

Where is Jones Coffee located?

To the one who asked about the Mac Book versus the Pro, I would say the Mac Book is plenty powerful, unless you plan on doing some intense video editing, graphics, or music...close to the professional level.

From an A's fan posting tonight at Athletics Nation:

"Damn. Looking over the Dodgers farm system, they are freakin stacked with really good prospects. I'm insanely jealous."

479
537 S. Raymond

http://www.thebestcoffee.com/

453 - Perfect. Everyone else is at fault if they don't laugh at your jokes or understand what you're saying, and you're free to ignore everyone's critique.

I don't need you to stroke my ego, and I can take a joke. But your teasing act or whatever you want to call it has played worse and worse as the weeks have gone by.

I attempted to ban you from the site tonight, but for some reason the software isn't working this evening. I'm content for you to take a vacation from the site. If you do come back down the road, why don't you try not misrepresenting my views for once? Because the jokes aren't working.

The LA Times has an online poll to choose the best centerfielder in LA Dodgers history.

John Shelby is one of the nominees.

I'm really glad I missed Joe Blanton thoughts. Missed that whole potential trade. Whew.

Fun read, though.

482 - And as far as your writing style goes, I don't think it's asking too much for you to attempt to be lucid.

Joe Blanton Thoughts made me a sad panda.

484 I'm still wondering who voted for Todd Hollandsworth as the LA Dodgers' best left fielder in the previous poll. Okay, 'fess up, who was it?

For some reason 483 reminds me of this collection of Simpsons clips:
http://tinyurl.com/25vyor

485 Did the Blanton trade die off already?

487 In fairness, it's clear that he attempted that (to a certain degree, at least) in his most recent post.

491 - If that were the only problem, I could live with that, as I have been.

489- How could they leave out the one where Homer becomes a missionary to escape the PBS pledge drive enforcers? "I'm not not licking toads."

athletics nation is having a great time fantasizing about raiding our system.

490 I guess we don't really know. I guess we never really know until the trade. But "The demands were too high" is good.

"The deal isn't totally dead" is better than "ongoing negotiations" to me.

495 Ah. I missed the "demands too high" quote. I need to catch up on my reading.

Guys, stop making Jon mad. I get really nervous when posts are deleted. I feel like someone is hiding something from me.

489 I love that one. Yeah, really only the first and the last clip are truly "trippy" moments.

And as if to officially put BlantonTalk to rest, Diamond Leung wrote: "Yes, the Dodgers talked to the A's regarding trading prospects for starting pitcher Joe Blanton. But the deal is very unlikely to happen, according to a baseball source. The youth movement lives!"

496 It was actually "The price was too steep." I misremembered. Same kettle of fish.

BTW, if you guys haven't read Bob's piece about St. Louis at The Griddle, you should.

http://tinyurl.com/2foha2

"... announcing the largest charitable campaign by a pro sports team in the city's history.

"Think Cure will debut as the Dodgers' first official charity, charged with raising funds for cancer research at partners City of Hope and Childrens Hospital Los Angeles."

The Tigers got a pretty bodacious start out of their rookie pitcher tonight.

497
You missed the chance to find out who your father was.

The words "still talking" and "deal not totally dead" have made me anxious all over again.

500
I won't give any money to Childrens Hospital until they put an apostrophe into the name.

502

No, that still exists in post 453.

505

I mean comment 453, if Sam DC is reading.

502 I remember the time my dad told me he was my dad. Ugh.

507 I hope it wasn't preceded by him cutting off your hand with a light saber.

504 It's for the Childrens. What's wrong with that?

Has anyone floated the idea of possibly hiring a really hot prostitute to track Ned down and keep him occupied until the deadline passes?

Just trying to think outside the box.

508 No, but he proceeded to kick my step mother in the knee.

510 I think the DRays utilized (is that word allowed here?) that same strategy for a different purpose last year.

510 You just put 37.5 jokes on a tee.

None of which I can use.

504 I know that what you said was tongue in cheek, they do amazing things. There is a girl in my youth group, (single mom, no money) who has spent the last two years going to chemo, radiation and stem cell transplant surgery. Last month she went in for her first CT scan in a while and they found no cancer. BTW, she had the exact same type of cancer as Jon Lester.

510 And it was the second sentence, not the first.

510- She could shave off his mustache while he slept, too.

If the Jimmy Fund has raised $500 million, how is Think Hope the largest charitable anything in sports, already?

Think Cure, I mean.

514
That's good to know. I think she should donate an apostrophe as a sign of thanks!

Ahhh it IS the most wonderful time of the year, isn't it? Between the huge huge huge Giants series and the deadline, tomorrow could quite possibly be the biggest day in Dodger history ever EVER.

....or, yknow, until that next playoff win...

The Betemit for Proctor rumor is gaining steam again.

Some other teams were looking at Proctor as a starter. Would we rather have him in the rotation or the pen? Either way, I'm worried about his workload this year and him wearing down.

Joe Blanton? Meh. I'd give up Lu, McDonald, and D. Young for him, but I'd leave the usual untouchables as untouchable.

Largest charitable campaign in Los Angeles.

516 McCourt is donating all the money the insurance companies paid for our injured veterans. It easily surpassed the Jimmy Fund.

Maybe he should donate Juan Pierre to the hospital, too. Then they'd always have a nice guy around the place wearing a Dodger jersey and making the kids feel better.

I don't know, I just see Ned as the type of guy who would really lose it for some high class escort-in-disguise about 56 leagues above his completely throwing herself at him.

Assuming Colletti doesn't give up the farm, this would be a far better pitching staff with Blanton and Proctor. No, they're not aces, but we have those already. We need depth. And if LaRoche can replace the underused Betemit, let's get that depth in here so we don't have to see Seanez pitch the 7th ever again.

520 McDonald and Young I have no problem parting with, but I'd keep Lucy Liu.

524 Umm... what type of guy wouldn't?

The line break in 524 is pretty amusing.

Maybe Juan Pierre could be the apostrophe.

Jon: I'm done with you. Your density (and some of the posse's) is way too admirable.

I played rugby against Zimmerman in the 60's; share e-mail once in a while. He has a nice piece on Bill Walsh. D'ya realize how long it took "FOOTBALL" to recognize the profit in their own country? How many times the Giants, among many others, were said to be considering him, and, woe, to some of us who loved what he was doin' in Cincy, passed him by for the Predictables?

Turns out he wasn't from Oakland after all....

In view of Jon's response (which I only saw 'cause of Zim) I just wanna thank my dozen for the light. As for the rest, Godspeed to you, too...

529 He might have to gain a little weight.

525. Somewhere here who actually is open to Colletti making a deal? I don't believe it.

527

I would think a guy closer to the majors than 56 levels, but if it's true for all, so be it, as long as it works.

I know my beloved Depo wouldn't give in to the devil like that, though.

So do we start the Harry Potter talk now?

530 I'm cutting and pasting that just so I can have it forever. It may be the last, and it's certainly the most coherent!

532 I don't get you. What do you hope to accomplish with statements like that? The best way to win an argument against a bunch of people is by telling them that they believe something they don't.

533 Yes, Depo is morally incorruptible, and would never make a trade of any type ever.

534 Dude, it's been Potter City USA all day over at The Jam.

535. I am not good at dealing with mob mentality.

521- Right you are. I'm slow. You'd think the Lakers would have passed around the hat once at least. It doesn't take too much to raise more than, as of now, zero dollars.

(More recently the Dodgers were among the favorites to pry middle reliever Octavio Dotel away from the Kansas City Royals. But the Royals, too, were demanding the 23-year-old Hu, who is quickly emerging as the Dodgers' top infield prospect.*

guys, Laroche still counts as a prospect.

538 We could always discuss our disagreements and attempt to find common ground. If all parties are open to that.

But to say that we're all against all trades is a little unfair. We don't want certain players traded. Unless we get really good stuff back. And those types of deals have not been floated.

530 -- Admirable density? Maybe he meant dentistry. I don't know. Anyhoo, don't do drugs, kids.

537
I should have looked past the thread about Entourage and FotC. It is hard for me to look past FotC.

536

I liked his trades. At least they never scared me and weren't for Julio Lugo.

But I'm being facetious about the "beloved Depo" stuff, for those who can't tell.

541. The Dodgers, as currently constituted, is not going to be consistent enough to be a factor in the playoffs. If Colletti feels the same way and wants to make some changes, I am totally open to it.

How can density be admired? Is being a prophet profitable?

545 I'd like very much to acquire a middle reliever and a starter. But those guys shouldn't cost Baseball America top 100 players. And two of them? Not a chance. But we have plenty of talented young kids to trade, and I'm open to it.

We disagree about players here all the time. We disagree about trades all the time. This is hardly a group of shrinking violets around here.

But we all agree that Springsteen is THE MAN.

And Springsteen in a Stanford jersey is THE MAN times 10.

546 I googled it and saw a bunch of wine reviews. So there you go.

Is Jon a Merlot, a Cabernet, or a Pino?

Oh, man, I remember dancing the night away to The Predictables. They epitomize the 80s for me.

Say, is Ken Gurnick maybe getting a little burned out? Here's part of a q and a from the latest "Dodger Mailbag":

Did the Dodgers keep the wrong pinch-hitter when they kept Olmedo Saenz instead of Marlon Anderson?
-- Gerry M., Philadelphia, Pa.

Intriguing question if pinch-hitters excite you.

547 -- Nope, Dmitri Shostakovich is THE MAN. Either him or Kurt Weill. Or David Bowie, if it has to be somebody who isn't dead.

545 Do I need to go on my "consistency" rant again?

Look, consistency never won anybody anything, particularly not in the playoffs, where it's all about who is on the best hot streak -- i.e. whoever's the most INconsistent.

Any team that makes the playoffs, by definition, is good enough to "be a factor" in the playoffs. It's mostly luck and happenstance, with a slight advantage toward teams with strong frontline pitching (which, last I checked, we do have).

"The Dodgers aren't consistent enough to be a factor in the playoffs." Uh-huh. Just like "Kemp's not ready for the majors" and "Billingsley doesn't live up to the hype."

...And Enders drops the hammer.

550 Ken Gurnick is the walking embodiment of "burned out." I think he was burned out the moment he left his mother's womb. He's been a cranky, chronically complaining old fart since his twenties when he was writing for The Sporting News.

If the 2007 Dodgers could be as inconsistent as the 2006 Cardinals, I would be a happy guy.

I may even become fun for a brief period.

555 Even if they scored the winning run on a double error?

551 CanuckDodger, I don't know how old you are, but if you were too young to pick up on Randy Newman's first album, it sounds like it would be right up your alley. It's called "Randy Newman," and it's the one with "Davy the Fat Boy," "Laughing Boy," "Love Story," and "I Think It's Going to Rain Today." It's got some fascinating orchestral backgrounds that reminded a lot of people of Kurt Weill.

554 -- Eric, how do you know Gurnick? I have the impression that others here are more familiar with your background than I am.

556
My double error battle was about as successful as D4P's battle against Joe Montana earlier today.

552 Well the team would probably have to be consistent enough to play at a .568 clip, then let's hope they get inconsistently on a hot streak in the playoffs.

But I fear our overall pitching is not strong enough to get in the .568 pct. Hope, I'm wrong though

557 -- Thanks, I like the Randy Newman stuff I have heard. And he wrote songs for the TV series Cop Rock, which everybody hates, but not me.

560 They would have to be good to play at a .568 clip. They would have to be consistent to win every third game, or every Thursday game.

They would have to be good to play .568 ball. In what pattern matters very little.

558 Most of what I know about him comes from reading his writing for the last 20 years. But on the occasions where I have sat in the same press box with him, he has made a point of criticizing and mocking the Dodgers, loudly and sarcastically, nonstop throughout the entire game. Remember how Steve used to go on and on ad nauseam about Jim Tracy? That's basically what Gurnick does verbally, except it's directed at the team instead of any one player.

560
But nobody in the NL is playing at a .568 clip.

562 Yes. Thank you.

565 Come on, man. We talkin' consistency here. This is my wheelhouse.

Not good. Not bad. Consistent. Consistent?

566 Yes, it's the hobgoblin of little minds. Your point is?

Man, time for bed. 24 hours until this stupid nerve racking trade deadline passes.

563 -- How is it that you have access to the press box? I did not know that you are a journalist. Are you affiliated with a particular media organization?

566 Reading this post, I'm hearing it in the voice of AI's "Practice" rant. :)

569 That's what I was going for.

567 We have to have points now? Uh oh.

.568 would equate to to about 32-33 wins with 57 games remaining? 89-90 wins enough to make it to the dance?

My apologies, should have double ck'd what was displayed on my calculator first, 32 wins would equate to .561 and 33 wins .578. This is what happens multi-tasking,playing on-line poker replying to e-mail.

561 Randy Newman never topped his first four albums. He's now someone who writes songs for Disney movies. But he used to have a real edge. So I hope you have had a chance to explore the early stuff.

567. Only 13 hours according to ESPN ticker.

This was a good day/night to be a lurker.

Anyone going to the Giant games? Stadium should be electric for the next three days--hopefully in a good way.

568 I do freelance writing and editing. I write a lot of articles for MLB Properties, which publishes the All-Star Game and World Series programs, so I spend a certain amount of time in locker rooms and press boxes.

Bud Selig signs my paychecks! (Well, some of them anyway.)

574 I'll be there on Wednesday and Thursday.

576. I'm going on Tues. Sadly, I had to give up my tickets for Thurs.

Toy Cannon,if you are going tomorrow night, come by and say hi, I'll be in my Loge seats.

574 I'm going tomorrow and Thursday night (oh the humanity of a Russell Martin bobblehead and Barry Bonds, I'll be lucky to park within sight of Dodger Stadium).

575 Your piece in the Jackie Robinson Day handout was very good. However, I don't think you need to be near a press box to deduce that Ken Gurnick is cranky.

Bob mention Eric's work once long ago, and I checked it out. I think it was around the SABR Convention in Seattle last year. I figured everybody knew that Enders writes really good stuff.

573- I liked the last one. It wasn't as good as the early stuff, which he notices ("Each record that I make's like a record that I made/Just not as good.").

I remember someone saying here in the past day or two that Piazza turned down an extension. But Plaschke is saying it was the other way around:

Dodgers' turn for the worse, courtesy of Bonds

>> Piazza wanted to sign a long-term contract extension that winter. The Fox folks refused, citing his failure to lead the team into the postseason. <<

http://tinyurl.com/2cd4hm

581 So I guess Plaschke rescinded his position of "the Dodgers trading Piazza is a very good thing".

General Manager Josh Byrnes confirmed Monday that Arizona was involved in discussions with the Braves about possibly bringing the power-hitting Teixeira to Phoenix, but he declined to say how serious the talks got.

that would be a fun twist.

581 I thank the heavens that I was in Connecticut during that time. Watching Mets, Yankees, and Sox, and away from this city.

If there had been blogs back then, I would have been banned from all of them. I don't understand the particulars, and I don't want to. It just happened.

And I assume, though I wasn't here, that Plaschke is overstating things. Because that's what he does.

He's a fountain of faux-gravitas with a sprinkling of credibility. I just flat-out don't believe most things he writes. He's Mr. Depth, without actual depth.

I'm going Wednesday, thanks to a friend's invite.

The way I figure it, I have an enormous chance to see one of the two record HR's on offer. Hendrickson is pitching. Serving up a record-breaking homer is just the sort of thing pitchers like Hendrickson were put on Earth to do.

583
Jackson, Owings, and Gonzalez for Teixeira maybe?

587 Can you believe a Watchmen movie is really being made?

I honestly can't believe it. But it is.

And the cast is looking good too!

589 I really hope Warner Bros. understands what they're dealing with here. The most celebrated graphic novel in history. Celebrated as one of the top 100 fictional works of the 20th Century. This is kind of a big deal.

This ain't the Fantastic Four. This is truly great literature. I hope they understand that.

Significant trade called unlikely

>> With the clock ticking toward today's 1 p.m. PDT trade deadline, Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti headed home Monday evening uncertain whether his team would be able to make a deal.

"We're not really close on anything right now," he said. "Nothing's imminent." <<

http://tinyurl.com/2427da

Plaschke's column about the cause of the Piazza trade being attributed to Bonds homering off Chan Ho Park the year before to be about as sensible as my claim once that the Dodgers wanted to acquire Delino DeShields because he played well in the three consecutive doubleheaders between the Dodgers and Expos in 1992.

So I blamed it all on Rodney King.

Well with the talent they have assembled it does not seem like this is going to be camp and cheese in any way.

I am sad they seem to be cramming the series into one film. I also wish David Cronenberg was directing it.

from rosenthal...

Such an attempt is unlikely; the Dodgers, after offering the A's three top minor leaguers — two position players and one pitcher — are not willing to go further, one source said.

any guesses?

I am a bit worried about Zach Snyder after seeing 300. Will he really put froth all the great symbols and social themes. 300 was basically all fluff and no meaning. I hope Watchmen is not the same.

Bill Plaschke pulls on emotional heartstrings because it's easy. Appealing to people, based on emotion, is the easiest thing in the world. Buy my product because it builds schools in Africa. Thanks for the money, I fooled you.

He may be a nice guy, but Bill Plaschke wouldn't understand honest, decent, selfless behavior if it hit him in the face. Bill really needs to read some Lao Tzu. But Xeifrank would say that he needs to read Laozi instead.

594 -- Maybe Delwyn Young, Blake DeWitt (will soon be blocked by LaRoche), and Justin Orenduff? I see all three of those guys having major league careers, but none of them looks like he has a place in the Dodgers' future. Those are the kinds of prospects you shop if you are looking to trade, and smart teams would be on them, but I would prefer to keep DeWitt and Orenduff at least another year, to let them increase their value.

596. if you want english speakers to pronounce it half-way right, then Laozi is your best bet. My Taoism book sitting next to me on my bookshelf is very dusty. If Laozi gets signed by the Dodgers, then perhaps I will worry more about the spelling.
:)
vr, Xei

597 Are you still a DeWitt guy? You were quite protective of DeWitt for a long time.

You know I don't think much of him, especially with the guys that are ahead of him.

More from the Robothal article: The identities of the minor leaguers in the Dodgers' offer for Blanton are not known, but four Class AAA players — third baseman Andy LaRoche, shortstop Chin-Lung Hu, second baseman Tony Abreu and right-handed reliever Jon Meloan — likely were among those discussed.

598 So, what's more important? Spelling the name correctly, or spelling the name phonetically to make the honkies pronounce it correctly?

597 -- I certainly believe DeWitt is a good prospect, which is why I stuck up for him when you claimed otherwise. But at one time there appeared to be a chance he could make it as a 2B, which is no longer the case, and even if he were still at 2B, Abreu has passed him on the depth chart. So with no place for DeWitt on a future Dodgers' team that includes LaRoche and Abreu, I am willing to see DeWitt traded. However, I would like to see us get something good for him, and to do that we are going to have to hold on to him till his value rises. We should try to hold on to at least all hitting prospects till they get to Triple A, as Vegas can do wonders for their numbers, and good to great numbers in Triple A obviously boost trade value.

506: Take that Bob -- some people's quixotic battles get real traction!!!

And here's more Nats/Dodgers rumormongering, with made up names floated as trade possibilities! http://tinyurl.com/2h73ho

For the record, I like DeWitt and believe he will be a good MLB player. I might put him ahead of LaRoche, I know I used to think of him as a better prospect.

603 Young for Rauch makes too much sense.

I like DeWitt, but I think he is probably our most expendable prospect, not only do we have LaRoche and Betemit ahead of him, but we have Josh Bell behind him, and way back in the Pioneer League, my favorite new prospect, Austin Gallagher. 3rd base is probably our most loaded position with only Inland Empire lacking a player worth keeping an eye on in that position.

606 -- But you don't trade a guy just because he is expendable. What you are getting back should actually be worth the guy you are giving up, and I don't see us getting back anybody like that today.

I am sure Colletti is going to make a trade today. Maybe two. Just because he can't help himself. We'll get a reliever, or two, and I shudder at the thought of what we will be losing. When DeWitt goes, it should be in a better deal than any that Colletti is going to make today.

Bill -

How many people that boo Barry Bonds even remember a first-inning home run by Bonds the day before Brian Johnson beat the Dodgers in the 12th inning, let alone make that first-inning homer by Bonds the primary reason for booing him? And of all the home runs that Bonds hit, why would this first-inning home run by Bonds be the one that demoralized the entire franchise?

What a strange premise.

607. Oh, I agree, everything depends on the return, of course, that's how you should evaluate any trade. It just seems that DeWitt is someone that we can part with (for the right piece of course) without depleting our depth.

532 - I and many others would welcome a trade that improves the team, Bluegold. Several people in here have even voiced a desire to trade prospects for immediate help.

It is not constructive for you to make the kinds of generalizations you are making.

No matter what happens I'd just like to thank the following prospects for getting hot in July and pushing up their value.

Name/Avg/OB/SLug/OPS
La Roche 414/.485/.943/1.428
D Young 381/416/.657/1.073
Chin-Lung Hu 375/394/.578/.972 (Vegas Only)
DeWitt 367/371/ .600/ .971(Jacksonville Suns Only)
DeJesus 411/452/.579/1.031
Carlos Santana 292/.420/.556/.976

Name/ERA/IP/Hit/Walks/K
McDonald 1.19/ 22.2/ 15/ 7/ 28(Jacksonville Suns Only)

That's right, our boy Dejesus posted a 579 slugging %. Not bad for a slap hitting 20 year old playing in High A. Always a pleasure to see Carlos Santana join the list of contributers after his joints warmed up in Wisconsin.

It is not hyperbole to say that in the month of July those players have been the best players in their league at their respective positions. La Roche we expected, the others not so much. Will be interesting to see if any of these are still Dodgers come 13:01.

Will Carroll is at it again:

"The Dodgers haven't been able to do much of anything because of arguments about who's untouchable and who isn't within that organization."

Three times he has said the same thing. Where are the details? What players are being argued over? Who is arguing?

612
While he doesn't give details, the gist of his comments seems reasonable. I mean, why would "Everyone within the organization agreeing 100% on player evaluation" be more likely than "Greater than zero disagreement within the organization on player evaluation"...?

If I was a sports cartoonist I'd depict Logan holding onto La Roches's right arm with Kim grabbing his ankles while Ned is yanking on the left arm trying to drag him toward a doorway that says Twins.

614-LaRoche for Joe Nathan?

I actually found Will's column made some sense today. He basically said what Canuck has been saying about our starting pitching for weeks.

Remember ages ago when a Watchmen movie was in the works - with Terry Gilliam directing? That would have been more fun than a Zack Snyder version, if probably also more bloated and nutty.

Hey, SF area DT-ers. Icaros, Paul and I are meeting up to watch the game tonight at 4th Street B&G (4th and Mission) in SF. 7pm. email me underdog8@gmail.com if you want to join us in our quiet little Dodger section.

We should hold a contest to see who can correctly guess where Eric Gagne will end up after today. Apparently there are 12 teams that can acquire him without his permission - the Yanks, Mets, Angels, Brewers and 8 other unknown teams.

Wheel of Gagne, where it stops, no one knows!

"552" No, you need not rant. Since 1988 the Dodgers have consistently not been a playoff factor. You cannot deny that one consistency. Why is it that the Dodgers have not been the team with that hot streak in 18 years? I do not deny the hot-streak factor, but you still need the players and the talent now to do well in the playoff this year. A hot streak with a deficient corp of players is not enough. A bright and rosy future does nothing for this year's playoff chances. I am not into the "just beyond the horizon" kind of thinking that seems to be the prevailing sentiment, because that horizon keeps shifting every year, and before you know it, another 18 years will elapse.

The 88 Dodgers are the poster child of OK teams getting incredibly hot at the right time. We could easily be lamenting about a 25 year gap instead of 18.

Given the state of the 'staff, barring any trades- where do most people think the D's will end the year in the west? (to me) Feels like the starters are running on vapor at this point and 3rd or 4th place is sort of inevitable.

If mid season trades determined a World Series victory I could understand your sentiment but there is no David Cone or Ricky Henderson available. I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with 5 mid season deals that resulted in a world series championship since Free Agency kicked in. For every team who has kicked those tires the reminders of Bagwell and Smoltz hang over them. Do you think the RedSox or Tigers might have won one or two more championships if they had not traded those two instead of gambling on Larry Anderson and Doyle Alexander?

618. Yanks.

618 I'm betting on "one of the unknown 8 other teams". ;-)

618 Mets

Detroit-Todd Jones would have no trouble ceding the closer role to Gagne.

Milwaukee.

He could be The Beard That Made Milwaukee Famous.

Will Carroll is also saying the most likely destination for Adam Dunn appears to still be... D.C. Huh?? Who do they have to trade for him? Don't those teams not want to trade with each other? And other reasons that trade makes no sense.

Another great director dies. RIP Michelangelo Antonioni

622 Exactly, you can push all you want for "the Dodgers should make a trade" but there really isn't anything out there. Joe Blanton isn't going to lead us to a championship.

622 Well, no. I think Detroit got plenty out of the Alexander trade (9-0, an ERA+ of 278, and a division championship), while it could be argued that Smoltz wasn't really Smoltz until The Tigers were lousy.

I do think things have changed, however. Low revenue teams no longer are forced to sell off assets at the deadline, because revenue sharing allows them to sign their own talent. Also, the wild card means noone really wants to admit that their out of the race.

Once again- I'm not opposed to making a deal, but to make a trade just to shake things up, or hoping that, say, Scott Proctor pushes us to a division title just seems, um, illogical.

608 At the risk of making a post hoc argument, that Giants series really does seem to be the beginning of the end of the "Dodger Way." I'd point to Brian Johnson's homer more than Bonds' pirouette, but it's been (almost) all downhill for this franchise ever since that series.

I suppose the season-ending sweep by San Diego the year before could also qualify.

630 Yeah, this has been a bad week for legendary filmmakers. We've been covering them at daily.greencine.com and it doesn't seem to end. Someone check on Godard!

Buster Olney is reporting that the Betemit for Proctor trade is happening.

634 And yet, yesterday's Variety cover was celebrating Brett Ratner.

611

With all respect, Ivan Jr. is not a slap hitter. I saw it all winter here in PR Winter League playing 2b, batting second, and although a short season here(44 games), he was among the batting leaders in the league for 1/2 season. He is a line drive hitter, with very good vision of the home plate zone...

635 I'll believe it when it seems more official. Buster's lead me astray before! As I've said before I wouldn't mind the addition of Proctor, I think he can be a good 7th inning guy. I just think Betemit would be a little too much to give up for him.

636 Sigh.

637 A "line drive hitter" should be hitting line drives more than 14.9% of the time.

622 I think the Smoltz for Doyle Alexander deal was a win-win. Certainly giving up Smoltz was a long-term hit for the Tigers, but he wasn't ready to contribute until two years later in 1989. Alexander went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA down the stretch for Detroit, who won the AL East by only 2 games.

Incidentally, Doyle Alexander was twice traded for Hall of Famers, nearly 16 years apart, as he was part of the package the Dodgers sent to the Orioles for Frank Robinson.

From MSN/Foxsports.com Did you guys read this The Dodgers made a strong, aggressive push to acquire right-hander Joe Blanton from the A's on Monday, but fell short of completing a trade, according to major-league sources.

The talks could revive, sources said, but only if the Dodgers initiate another effort prior to the non-waiver deadline at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

Such an attempt is unlikely; the Dodgers, after offering the A's three top minor leaguers — two position players and one pitcher — are not willing to go further, one source said.

I don't know if this is true or not but 3 Top prospects for Blanton?? now I haven't seen him pitch in some time but to me Blanton is an average pitcher at best, again I don't know if this is true or not but WOW! & I gotta tell you one more thing Kim Ng lost major points with me after bringing up Matt Kemp way to quick I know he's a lot better now but back then he was being over matched in a big way.

The Dodgers and Yankees have agreed in principle on a trade that would send reliever Scott Proctor to the Dodgers for infielder Wilson Betemit, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney.

I disagree in principle.

Betemit for Proctor disappoints me. Not outrage, or anger, but disappointment.

Don't like like that deal one bit. Betemit for a really maddening middle reliever? Come on, man.

Proctor?

641 "Top prospects" could mean anything really. It could mean LaRoche/Kershaw/Meloan or it could mean DeWitt/Steven Johnson/Josh Bell. I would be much, much happier with one of those trades.

638 Agreed. I just don't think the Dodgers need a reliever.

Buster Olney is reporting that the Betemit for Proctor trade is happening.

after hearing the msn/foxsports.com trade rummer on my {641} I can live with that but it just doesn't make any sense knowing we have Jonathan Meloan just wasting away in triple-A.

622He also had a 10.00 ERA in two starts in the playoffs. The point would be that Alexander gave them everything they could have hoped for and it wasn't enough. And then that was it. I'd rather have 15 years of Smoltz then 2 months of a superlative Alexander and then a meltdown in the playoffs. But that is hindsite. I'm just not for trading top level prospects for old starting pitchers who normally wouldn't have much left in late Sept. Maddux was had for a backup infielder so the gamble is worth it. Maddux also melted down in the playoffs.

I also think that, from what I hear, the Yankees are desperate to get rid of Farnsworth, desperate. I can't picture them getting rid of both Farnsworth and Proctor, unless they also acquire another reliever from someone else. So my guess is they trade Farnsworth and not Proctor. So maybe we're safe. We'll see. I still like the Cordero idea better, if we're bringing in a reliever, though he'd be more expensive than Proctor.

641 Yep Blue, we've been debating that idea since last night. Sounds like it's not gonna happen because the A's were asking for too much. My own proposal was Hu, Betemit and (another minor leaguer not in the top 10 prospects) for Blanton, but the A's quickly rejected me.

I'm predicting Proctor's 1.28 K/BB ratio will come in super handy.

We could/should get more for Betemit than Scott Proctor.

Put me in the camp that doesn't like this trade, yet is not outraged by it. The main aspect I don't like is that Betemit's performance was not properly recognized, and that his season is still probably viewed by Colletti as a disappointment.

If the deal is true as reported, Betemit's final stats as a Dodger: .236/.332/.435, 101 OPS+ in 385 PA. Hopefully he will be remembered fondly by Dodger fans, and not just as a placeholder until LaRoche arrived.

I have to say, dealing Wilson Betamit--one of the few guys on the team who can hit the ball past the second-base bag--to the Yankees, for a middle-reliever brasses me off not a little. Unless we're bringing up LaRoche and starting him at third, which we know we aren't.

Trading Betamit for anything that allows Tomko and Hendrickson to remain in the rotation is just a waste, in short.

I guess the big question is why Ned doesn't have faith that Meloan can do what Proctor can do or does he really feal that Saito's health is that shakey and that we need Proctor and Meloan.

I think the Yankee's just made a great deal, Betemit is going to enjoy hitting in the AL East.

The Cardinals are buyers. They picked up Joel Pineiro.

They're not buying much.

I am of two minds about Betemit. On the one hand, I feel as many do that he did not get a fair chance to play regularly. He was given 100 at bats, and then basically benched. He has been hitting a ton over the past six weeks or so, and with his power potential, really deserved to play more.

On the other hand...he may be one of those players who cannot play everyday, and thrives while playing once to twice a week. I have a feeling that is the conclusion the Dodgers have come to about him, much as the Braves did last year.

Look at it this way - Baez for Proctor. We win!

Seriously, I like Proctor, I think he'll stabilize the bullpen. Just as I said above, I think Betemit wasn't given much of a chance and is a little too high a price. That said, I don't see where he fits with the Yankees either. He'll be on the bench there, too. Weird trade. But I think you guys are more negative about Proctor than I am. I think the Dodgers are worried about Saito, yeah, and while they'll call up Meloan in a month, probably felt they needed more to stabilize the bullpen. Now if Betemit could only have landed us a decent starter, instead...

I don't think Ned ever liked Betemit that much. I recall an interview a few weeks ago where he labeled Wilson "a huge frustration". Direct quote.

Also, I'd rather the Dodgers trade Betemit than LaRoche.

653 If The Mustache thought Meloan could help right now, Meloan would be here, right now. But, yet again, he isn't proven. Good doesn't matter. Bad doesn't matter. Effective doesn't matter. He isn't experienced.

All we can do is hope that Proctor's stuff baffles hitters in the NL for a short period. The fact that he hasn't been very good this year is, I guess, irrelevant. But he does have dirty stuff.

Positive spin!

I do like reading how Yankees fans don't like the trade.

We need to send an emissary to Bronx Banter, to get opinions on Proctor.

More positive spin: Think of this trade as a former Dodger prospect finally coming "home" after several years away.

I can't wait for the return of one Bubba Crosby!

The Nomar turn around had better be for real. If he goes back to playing like garbage (but keeps his spot by maintaining his BARISP), this is going to be a big problem. Especially if Abreu takes Betemit's spot on the 25 man roster.

So what do we do now for the oft demanded 'lefty bat off the bench'? We traded Jhonny Nunez to get one last year, now we don't seem to have one. D. Young is a lefty?

656- Why do you like Proctor?

So it's now Wilson Betemit and Bubba Crosby for Robin Ventura?

Is there absolutely any appealing trait that Proctor has, because he appears to be much worse than Danys Baez.

Final Tally:

Edwin Jackson, Tiffany, Willy Abreu for Scott Proctor.

Ethier is looking like an aberration from the norm of one sided trades. He should just stay away from middle relief help in trades.

Since they cannot land a top flight starter, I think the Dodgers are trying to build a deeper bullpen that can basically pitch the last 3-4 innings of games. You would have Proctor for the 7th, Broxton for the 8th and Saito for the 9th. Beimel could return to the role of situational lefty. Other than Lowe and Penny, none of the Dodger starters pitch more than 5-6 innings on a consistent basis.

In many ways, this is a typical Colletti trade--not bad enough to really condemn him, not good enough to really praise him.

I owe D4P an apology. He was right, they never valued Betemit correctly.

Proctor has had one usefull season out of four and that was last year not this year. I'm really steamed, we've traded a great trading chip for a pitcher who is probably no better then Eric Hull. In fact he was Eric Hull just a few years ago, all the way down to the fact he was pitching for Vegas when he was 26.

663 Isn't Proctor technically taking Betemit's spot on the 25-man? But who is the pitcher most likely to be sent down or DFA'd to make room for Abreu? I'd say Hull is most likely to go, but am hoping for the Old Yeller treatment for Roberto Hernandez.

664 It could also be more bench time for Ethier.

660 Yeah its hard to see what need this fills for the Yankees. I suppose their bench is awful and this serves as an upgrade. Maybe they're also thinking about platooning him at 1B.

664
I would assume the "lefty bat off the bench" will be Abreu. Either Houlton or Hull would go down to make room for Proctor.

664- Young switch hits. He has, in the past, been better from the left side, but this year he's been better from the right. For no reason I know of.

I guess Ned missed this part, which is strange given how "clutch" he thinks Nomar is:

None on:
Betemit .182/.301/.466/.767
Nomar .242/.281/.328/.609

Runners on:
Betemit .294/.427/.485/.912
Nomar .331/.380/.395/.775

Bottom line is that Ned only cares about BA.

Well, my skirt's not blown up, but I guess this will make the team better this year without really hurting it in the future. Betemit was never going to pass Nomar this year, and if Nomar got injurred I imagine they would call up Laroche. With Laroche reaffirming himself as the future it's hard to see Betemit ever getting a real shot, and apparently nobody gives credibility to homerun production until they see a full season worth. I'm not going to say we should have gotten more for Betemit because I'm sure if there was more to get we would have gotten it. Betemit was the most obvious trade piece and I'm sure they've been shopping him hard.

Horrible Trade! I hate this!
Why is this doable now as opposed to a week ago when the Yankees were flatly denied Betemit for Proctor? I don't get it.
Proctor is trash and will not do ANYTHING to help us now that Meloan couldn't do. We need power and we trade the guy on the team with the MOST power for a piece of garbage! Totally unacceptable.

I owe D4P an apology. He was right

Broken record... ;-)

Long time reader, first time poster here. My big plan was to come on at the deadline and praise Ned for resisting the urge to make a panic deal. But Betemit for Proctor, I don't know, I was hoping for better than a guy I keep seeing described as "worn out." Still, just a few hours to go, and Loney, Kemp, et. al. will be safe. Back away from the phone, Ned!

Scott Proctor career HR/9: 1.39. This year: 1.32

But don't worry, he does have a league average strikeout rate.

665 Because he's got really good stuff. His problem has been that he can't, shouldn't, be used every day - Torre's been overusing him way too much. When he gets a break, he can be very effective. I think he'll be good back in the NL. That said, no, I'm not super excited about this trade, but I think it can slightly help the team.

If Betemit plays first, it makes sense for the Yankees. If he doesn't, it doesn't.

670 Yes, me too, if Roberto is DFA'd then I already like this trade.

677 Don't get in a dither. It's pretty clear what Colletti is now. A GM who doesn't focus on certain things that he should, but isn't going to trade away monster prospects. Mixed bag, but not smart.

I thank the heavens that Kim Ng is in there.

So far I've learned this on Proctor...

1) recently removed from the primary setup role "to restore his confidence."

2) allowed 4 HR in his last 6 appearances

3) nicknamed "EDSP" for everyday Scott Proctor given his his 102ip last year.

4) His ERA has been saved by some high strand rates. His FIP ERA this year is 5.52.

5) His walk rate and HR rate are nearly double last year. Would like to hear whether his stuff has deteriorated or if he just needs to "feel more comfortable out there" like Tomko.

RIP, Michelangelo Antonioni

Combined with Ingmar Bergman's death, an elderly French film director goes through the day with great trepidation.

Proctor is not a piece of garbage. Sheesh. You don't have to like the trade but can the hyperbole. I'm serious, Proctor is a better pitcher than it may appear right now, because of the way Torre works his bullpen. He will be better than Hull or Hernandez and, yeah, I'd like to see Meloan get a shot as much as anyone, but I'd rather this than trading a couple of high prospects for Dotel, which was another option.

We still need to address our SP's, unless Proctor can be stretched to be a SP. Betemit has the potential but has been frustratingly aggravating displaying his ability on occassions. Look, at it this way, one less person to block LaRoche from being called up, which might happen as Abreu is nursing an injury.

wow...all caught up. i need a smoke and i dont smoke.

684 meet 630 and 634 Yeah, it's a bad week for the legends.

When I think about it, I don't have a problem with Betemit being traded because he wasn't being used anyway.

I have a problem with him not being used anyway.

Proctors XERA is 5.66 instead of the sterling 3. something he's carrying now. The strand rate of 80% tells the story. He's been putting runners on at a terrible clip. He's a lousy pitcher who happens to be on the Yankee's. Torre killed him last year with his plus 100 innings.

He's Baez all over again. You know I'm even keel, this trade blows, absolutely blows.

Look at it this way: In a month we'll have Proctor AND Meloan. For whatever reason, they don't think Meloan is ready. I'm guessing that will change by September.

I'm starting to think they're being cautious about Meloan because of the Brazoban experience. (Great band name, btw.) Similar circumstances, no? They may be thinking they've got to keep from throwing a young arm into a pennant race and overworking him.

681 That's the defensible argument. That Proctor has dirty, run all over the place stuff. On the down side, he hasn't been very good.

But Torre runs him out there all time. All. The. Time. I dunno. We'll see

{shakes head}

I certainly hoped we would get more for Betemit, but it's not surprising to see him go. I would have preferred Rauch to Proctor - his K rate and K/BB are much better than Proctor's, and he's Gigantor, for crying out loud. Plus, it sounds like he's seriously on the market - tell me Betemit couldn't have fetched him.

At any rate ("don't trade for middle relief" aside) if we've not only kept our major prospects at the deadline, but also cleared space for LaRoche to be the unquestioned #2 guy at third (as long as Nomar lasts), then I can't really complain.

One of the things that I thought Colletti had done well this season was compiling his bullpen. It had been very good until it got worn out. And the key pieces of that bullpen -- Saito, Broxton, Beimel, Seanez -- were all prospects or picked up cheaply.

He seemed to have learned from the Baez mistake -- giving up valuable pieces for middle relievers will come back to haunt you, because chances are you can get a guy nearly as good for nothing.

I rooted for Betemit but he didn't have a place on the team (or wouldn't once LaRoche comes up to stay). Trading him is the right move. Trading him for a middle reliever is a mistake.

All that said, +1 for the group that chalks this up as "bad trade, but whatever."

685 April was probably Proctor's worst month this year. If his decline is to recent overwork, then shouldn't he have gotten worse throughout the year?

Right now, he fails the middle reliever criteria of having average peripherals (a test that Baez passed almost to the letter). How is he anything but garbage? He looks a lot like a guy that had a late debut, a couple of decent years, then collapsed.

688
Sorry, I usually check for those things.

679
Welcome. Buckle yourself in though. It could be a bumpy day.

Wilson has the highest ISOpower on the team, but I imagine that isn't high on Ned's list of stats.

Scott Proctor: 6.13 K/9 and 4.8 BB/9. 5.52 FIP. 25% GB%. A garbage reliever that is far more likely to post an ERA of 5 than 3 (despite what his ERA is so far). The best thing you can say about this trade is I expected something much worse.

That's the defensible argument. That Proctor has dirty, run all over the place stuff. On the down side, he hasn't been very good

Sounds familiar.

685
I will bet you anything that Proctor is trash. This move doesn't help us anymore than than the proposed Dotel trade would've. So why make it? We have other options within the organization. Betemit was too valuable to give up for a mediocre RP. If Ned couldn't have gotten more for Betemit than he shouldn't have traded him. Plain and simple. I'm with ToyCannon on this 100%.....this trade blows!

I don't like the trade. Proctor's an average pitcher who isn't worth giving up much for. Betemit's a guy who could start at third for a lot of teams, including the Yankees after A-Rod leaves. Even if he was never going to supplant Nomar, he provides a certain amount of value starting once a week and being our best pinch hitting option. I'm not opposed to trading Betemit, but if this is the type of return he brings then we would have been better served keeping him.

I'm not sure if the trade reflects worse on Colletti or on Paul DePodesta, who gave up Proctor for a blob of used chewing gum in the first place.

700 This could be the first time that anyone has suggested giving up Proctor was a bad idea.

Looks like Proctor won't be a FA till 2010. So, maybe he'll be worth a draft pick in a couple of years.

691
Brazoban was very effective in 2004 when brought upto to replace the traded Mota. It was 2005 when he imploded.

My biggest problem is not Proctor, it is the waste of an excellent trading chip. A complete waste. I could name you 50 relief pitchers who'd I rather have then the Proctorologist.

Looks like Proctor won't be a FA till 2010

But he'll be DFA in 2008

698 I'm trying to be positive here.

But hey, Ned (or Grady, or both) never liked Betemit. And they focus on the dumb stuff. So, you know, lemons out of lemonade and all that jazz.

I don't have to rip this deal. It's implicit.

700 It was Dan Evans who traded him, for what its worth.

This is all because Colletti didn't get Dotel.

Post hoc, ergo Scott Proctor.

L'Avventurra is one of my favorite movies of all time. Laslo Kovacs died last week so hopefully Godard is safe. Godard is the only one of those filmmakers who is still active, though his work is barely seen.

I intend to reserve judgment on the Proctor-Betemit deal. As my broker says, "past performance is no indication of future returns".

707- Pellam just found a new favorite poster.

Scott Proctor isn't the SP we were looking for.

So, is this trade actually, like, official?

709 I suppose Scott Proctor could suddenly become a good pitcher at age 30.

712)

I was just going to ask that. It may not happen, right? (crossing fingers)

711 These aren't the droids you're looking for?

712
God I hope not. I'm holding out hope that this is still just an uncomfirmed rumor like when Mulder or Hudson was supposedly traded to the Dodgers a few years ago.

707
I'm more upset that he got to the joke before me.

As for the rest of the day, I will be quite happy to be in meetings for much of it and miss a lot of news.

hi all. I think Proctor, if given the rest that he needs will be an effective reliever for the Dodgers. His numbers are somewhat skewed from periods where he really was awful following overuse. These were often followed up with periods of rest and high effectiveness. At least, those are my observations.

Late to the party as usual:

The Betemit trade seems to give us a small uptick in the short term (since Betemit is essentially rotting away on the bench anyway), but with the potential for long-term disappointment if Betemit can ever maintain his power on a regular basis (of course he has to be given the chance to play daily for that to happen which doesn't appear in the cards here in LA but doesn't seem all that likely in NY either). Management's undervaluing of Betemit doesn't make sense to me, and I wonder if it stems from some more nebulous evaluations like attitude and work ethic. Whenever I see Betemit in the dugout he always seems engaged and rooting for his teammates despite his lack of playing time, so he certainly isn't any kind of obvious troublemaker. All in all, it will probably end up being a rather quickly forgotten shuffling than a long-remembered boondoggle.

As a lifelong Rams fan who has been emotionally ravaged by Bill Walsh and the 49ers more times than I can count, I was surprised to learn that the key to their success was a bunch of fast wide receivers. I never realized that the 49er dynasty stemmed from the presence of Renaldo Nehemiah, maybe if we could have signed Carl Lewis we would have been able to compete with them during the SF heyday.

Maybe the addage of having too much of a good thing, when referencing our talanted young players and prospects down on the farm. Other teams looking for potential trades with us, dismiss a Betemit for better value for our return, because their eye is on our farm, which every team is coveting and which we would not let go for what is being propposed.

709 "As my broker says, "past performance is no indication of future returns".

The only problem is, in baseball, that's the exact opposite of the truth.

Proctor only has one career save.

ONE!

What is Ned thinking...?

Skip Bayless thinks the Yankees need Gagne for the "psychological impact" he would have on the clubhouse.

ESPN is useless.

Torre's been overusing him way too much.

But, is his work load really going to decrease coming to LA?

Proctor throws hard, and has a great arm. But trading young position players for middle relievers doesnt really help the team.

MeLoan could do the same thing Proctor could. Trading for Proctor doesnt seem like it helps the team much.

722
He's not and that's the problem.

722 yes, and he hasn't handled save situations well. On the other hand, he doesn't get many opportunities with Rivera behind him.

As a lifelong Rams fan who has been emotionally ravaged by Bill Walsh and the 49ers more times than I can count, I was surprised to learn that the key to their success was a bunch of fast wide receivers

Stick around. You might learn something.

Well now that we got Proctor, does that mean R. Hernandez gets his walking papers?

703 Brazoban was very effective in 2004 when brought upto to replace the traded Mota. It was 2005 when he imploded.

Yep, but I can imagine they might be associating the '05 implosion with the '04 workload.

Whatever the reason, it seems obvious that they're being cautious with Meloan, and maybe because Grady would naturally be very tempted by having an arm like that available. Caution with young pitchers' workloads usually pays off, and I think it deserves our blessing instead of our derision.

I wish we'd gotten better than Proctor, though.

I'm looking at this trade, and ultimately, I see it for what it is: a bench player for a middle reliever. It's not the end of the world and it's not a blockbuster.

The fact is Betimet was going to have to be moved because there was no place for him on this team besides the bench. Nomar is the present at third, LaRoche is the future - that doesn't leave any place for Betimet.

Personally, I'd rather this than a move for a starting pitcher that would give us a 7 man rotation for next year.

721 It's kind of the opposite in investing, too. I mean, your broker has to say that -- but when we decide where to put our money, one of the main things we look at is how a fund has done in the past, both recent and long-term.

he doesn't get many opportunities with Rivera behind him

Wait a second: I'm supposed to consider "opportunities" when looking at the "Save" statistic...? This game is complicated!

Is Scott Proctor's arm really so fragile that he'll go from being trash to a good pitcher by throwing, what, 10 less innings? He was on pace to throw 27 innings more with the Yankees this year, so how many will he throw with the Dodgers? 20?

Is that rest really going to turn his season around? If it does, how much difference can a guy make in 20 innings?

I'm looking at this trade, and ultimately, I see it for what it is: a bench player for a middle reliever

As long as we're clear that Betemit was used as a bench player, and is not inherently a bench player.

Maybe Proctor will have a good psychological impact on the clubhouse.

I am not a big Proctor fan by any means, but it seems a little presumptuous to assume the Meloan would come in and pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. How many times does a young player fall flat on his face when promoted.

That being said, I would have preferred to keep Betemit.

I was assuming the Brazoban/Meloan comparison meant potential for injury, rather than performance. Meloan has a history of injury problems, although he's been healthy for the past year and two-thirds, during which time he's been handled with kid gloves.

I suspect the main reason Meloan hasn't been called up yet is not fear that he's not ready performance-wise, but fear of using up a bullpen spot on a guy who can't pitch on consecutive days.

Is Proctor a better upgrade than Hernandez? R. Saeanez?

734 I would replace your phrase "is not" with "may or may not be," but then, +1.

I will certainly be watching when some team decides to give Betemit 600 plate appearances in a season.

733 All I can tellyou is that he often improved significantly after a week or so of rest. Torre didn't overuse him. He burned him into the ground. We call him Every Day Scott Proctor for a reason.

Of course, that may not happen. He may be so overused that he is done. But he is tough.

720 I think you're right. No GM wants to read in the paper that they gave up a valuable player for the Dodgers 11th best prospect.

good luck with proctor and good day!

New post up top.

733 - It's not enough that he wasn't going to make much of an impact as a middle reliever, but now they have to baby him as well.

I could get behind this if he was a Paul Quantrill-type, who could pitch 3 out of 4 games and still produce.

I really rooted for Betemit. This is disappointing, but I guess we can always fall back on "wow, it could've been a lot worse".

Proctor is an above-average reliever. Betemit, even if he was a starting third baseman, would be a below-average 3B. On those terms, this seems like a fair trade. Those who are upset are banking more on Betemit's potential, at age 25, to get better with more playing time. I'll lean toward the Braves and Dodgers on that judgment, since they've both traded him away.

734 - of course, as I also said, the present and future at third has been decided, that leaves only one place for Wilson in the Ravine. He will be a servicable third baseman somewhere, but it just won't be in LA.

Based on how starters fail to last a 162 game a team with 7 starters would be a good thing. It was only a few months ago when the Phillies felt they had to much starting pitching.
I don't understand the sentiment that it was okay to trade Betemit because he wasn't being used. Did everyone just forget what he did as a pinch hitter, or that he actually starts 2 games a week. He was being used and he was valuable right now. We don't have a Betemit to replace Betemit. We have Abreu.

Assuming this is the only trade, we need to make two moves now:

1) DFA Hernandez or send down Hull
2) Call-up a position player (LaRoche or Young?)

735 - Only if he can prescribe drugs.

745
Proctor is not an above average reliever unless you prove it to me. Pitching alot of innings does not mean your good.

Also, I'd rather the Dodgers trade Betemit than LaRoche.

That's the way one should look at it. 668 That makes pretty good sense & if Saito goes on the shelf we'll bump Broxton for the 9th, Proctor for the 8th & hopefully Meloan we'll pitch the 7th in the not so distant future.

I just looked up Scott Proctor on Wikipedia. As Wikipedia is wont to do after a celebrity death, they've already got him traded back to the Dodgers in July 2007.

Looks like the guy is a hothead! Two retaliatory beanings...and about a month ago, he set his own equipment on fire after some bad pitching.

Like you crazy kids like to say, I'm "meh" on this deal. I'm glad to have some help in the bullpen for the next few weeks, but it seems like we gave up a lot to get Betemit based on his potential, and now have only a mediocre middle reliever to show for it. There must have been some internal frustration or disappointment with him.

Also, those who said Betemit playing second base on Saturday was a showcase were clearly proven right.

734 - Betemit is misused and stashed behind the rotting corpse of Nomar Garciaparra, and thus has no value. This is like trading a roll of twenties for a candy bar- but you were using the twenties as toilet paper so really you were trading toilet paper for a candy bar!

Betemit had value at 2B (or any other part of the infield) in the future. Besides, as we have seen this year, the unforeseen happens. The idea that all of our position problems are solved for years to come is absurdly shortsighted.

721 Sometimes the change in environment and/or coaching produces better performance. Right off the top of my head Shawn Green is an example. He had better OBP, SLG, and AVG at Arizona than he did in his last year with the Dodgers.
I'm intending to wait and see how Grady et.al use Proctor.

750 His OPS+ is significantly above 100 the past two years.

721 Sometimes the change in environment and/or coaching produces better performance. Right off the top of my head - Shawn Green is an example. He had better OBP, SLG, and AVG at Arizona than he did in his last year with the Dodgers.
Re: Proctor - I'm going to wait and see how Grady et.al use Proctor before making any judgments.

"I am not a big Proctor fan by any means, but it seems a little presumptuous to assume the Meloan would come in and pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. How many times does a young player fall flat on his face when promoted."

Nobody's assuming Meloan would pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. They're assuming that he could pitch at least as well in the majors as Scott Proctor can, or Rudy Seanez, or Roberto Hernandez. Which seems to me a very safe assumption.

Young, extremely high strikeout pitchers tend to dominate in the majors fairly often, immediately after getting called up. Their stuff usually prevails. Look at J. Weaver, F. Hernandez, Zumaya, Verlander, Gallardo, Lincecum for recent examples. If anything they tend to have a period of immediate success followed by a few struggles once the league adjusts to them.

People like to cite Broxton ca. 2005 as proof that Meloan would not succeed. But although Broxton struggled in his first few games that year, he was oustanding later in the year.

I feel exactly the same way about this as I did about Hee Seop Choi. Both guys are young "three true outcome" players. The team didn't recognize (or didn't value) the upside of either, especially the huge power potential. Both were let go for less than they were worth (Choi was DFAd). Both blows are softened by the presence of a probably superior prospect on the horizon (Loney for Choi and LaRoche for Betemit), but in both cases, the prospect was blocked by Nomar Garciaparra.

I'm sure Proctor will help in the short run, but the short-run bullpen problems are due to injuries, not low quality. So the only justification I can see for calling this a balanced trade is if the Dodgers have a very high discount rate -- that is, if marginal improvement in August 2007 is perceived to be more important than bigger improvement later on (obtained through Betemit's performance or the performance of a better return on the WB trading chip).

I'm in the upset-but-it-could-have-been-worse camp. I think Betemit can be a star. If he can raise his BA to the .270 range, with all that patience and power, he can star for someone.

As for what this means about Colletti, well, it's another poor, needless, but far from disastrous trade. He remains hyperactive, but for whatever reason, knows enough to avoid the D4P type debacle. I used to read the tea leaves, inferring Colletti's player-evaluation criteria, and dreading the huge blunder. Now it looks more and more as though the small trades, while generally not to my liking, are all there is.

So Colletti may be a moron, but he's a risk-averse moron. It'd be much much worse if he were a risk-loving moron.