Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

June the 6th, 1944
2008-06-06 19:44
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Kuroda Ks 11 in Shutout
Hiroki Kuroda pitched the Dodgers' first complete game of the season and first single-pitcher shutout since 2005, blanking the Cubs, 3-0, on four hits, no walks and 11 strikeouts. He threw 112 scintillating pitches.
Normally on the telecast we talk about "This Day in Baseball." I don't mean to sound grumpy or grouchy, but I can't believe what I didn't hear. I listened to the news on the radio for an hour and 15 minutes today. Did not hear one word about what this day really means. June the 6th, 1944. Do the names Omaha, Utah, Gold, Juno, Sword - do they mean anything? They're the beaches at Normandy. Sure, today was D-Day: the invasion of Europe, when thousands of soldiers gave their lives so that we could be free. I'll be darned if I saw any real publicity about it at all. Please don't let that happen again next year. Please? Yeah - this day.

- Vin Scully

Comments (142)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-06 22:04:15
1.   jtrichey
I have heard a little mention of it, but he's right.

Wonder how much discussion there will be on 9/11/2065.

2008-06-06 22:04:15
2.   still bevens
Sad to see the fans sitting in their seats as Kuroda walked off the field. Man deserves a standing ovation.... Unless he comes out for the CG.
2008-06-06 22:04:27
3.   Jon Weisman
Oh, SOSG did me one better.
2008-06-06 22:04:28
4.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I've seen "Saving Private Ryan" at least five times - does that count?
2008-06-06 22:05:51
5.   sporky
2 I think they'll let him start the 9th.
2008-06-06 22:07:22
6.   nick
101 pitches: hard to see how ten or fifteen more would be a problem....
2008-06-06 22:08:15
7.   sporky
Or not.
2008-06-06 22:08:36
8.   silverwidow
This is ridiculous.
2008-06-06 22:08:58
9.   Icaros
Lame. This guy is used to making way more than 100 pitches.
2008-06-06 22:09:12
10.   silverwidow
You do NOT pull Kuroda in this situation.
2008-06-06 22:09:31
11.   Alex41592
I strongly disagree with removing Kuroda, Kuroda deserves to finish this gem off.
2008-06-06 22:09:43
12.   silverwidow
Oops, Vin was wrong. YAY!
2008-06-06 22:09:48
13.   sporky
He's still in!
2008-06-06 22:09:51
14.   Jon Weisman
Um, Kuroda is still in the game.
2008-06-06 22:10:05
15.   Alex41592
11 - Nevermind :)
2008-06-06 22:10:09
16.   Icaros
Jeez, Vin. Make me look bad.
2008-06-06 22:10:11
17.   Bob Hendley
Joe tricked us!
2008-06-06 22:10:27
18.   underdog
I like this, leaving Kuroda in. Hopefully I'll still like it after the game is over.
2008-06-06 22:11:09
19.   underdog
In the words of Nelson, "HAH. HAH." ;-)
2008-06-06 22:11:25
20.   Jon Weisman
12-12 in the eighth in Vegas.
2008-06-06 22:12:30
21.   underdog
Your honor, let comments 6-11 be stricken from the record.
2008-06-06 22:12:34
22.   Bob Hendley
LATed - What was it..a walkoff salami by Martin, an 11-1 drubbing of the Pads and now this. I think we should all chip in to buy season tickets for Lonestar's English godfather.
2008-06-06 22:12:50
23.   silverwidow
WOOOOO!
2008-06-06 22:12:57
24.   MonkeyBlue
kkkkkkkkkk!
2008-06-06 22:13:06
25.   silverwidow
Best Dodger pitching performance of the year!
2008-06-06 22:13:23
26.   sporky
This is a Sammy ovation.
2008-06-06 22:13:31
27.   Disabled List
I sure picked a great night to bench Kuroda on my fantasy squad.
2008-06-06 22:14:03
28.   nick
still hitting 95!
2008-06-06 22:14:09
29.   Icaros
95?
2008-06-06 22:14:09
30.   Alex41592
One more Kuroda!
2008-06-06 22:14:21
31.   silverwidow
Kuroda = ACE
2008-06-06 22:14:30
32.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Sweet.
2008-06-06 22:14:30
33.   thinkblue88
yay!!

HIRO!!!

2008-06-06 22:14:32
34.   MonkeyBlue
O.o AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
2008-06-06 22:14:35
35.   sporky
SQUEE!!!!
2008-06-06 22:14:53
36.   Alex41592
Hiroki Kuroda just shut down the best offense in the majors! WOW!
2008-06-06 22:15:05
37.   Eric Stephen
Kuroda!
2008-06-06 22:15:11
38.   JJ42
and a hug from Ethier!
2008-06-06 22:15:11
39.   Icaros
This is the best Dodgers starting pitcher outing since...?
2008-06-06 22:15:21
40.   Bob Hendley
What a gem! I haven't smiled this much since...
2008-06-06 22:15:32
41.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Game Score = 90
2008-06-06 22:15:36
42.   underdog
Yessss!

That, ladies and gents, was a masterpiece.

Almost makes me like baseball again. :-)

2008-06-06 22:15:48
43.   Eric Stephen
Nothing but pure speculation, but LaRoche homers off Zambrano tomorrow on Fox.
2008-06-06 22:16:02
44.   CanuckDodger
June 6 is not a US national holiday. It gets a lot of attention every 5 years -- 40th anniversary, 45th anniversay, 50th anniversary, etc. I am something of a World War II hobbyist, and I think it gets way more play than it deserves. Landing at Normandy was significant, but the war had other events.
2008-06-06 22:16:30
45.   sporky
I don't know how much he factored into this, but keep Ardoin. Please.
2008-06-06 22:16:42
46.   JJ42
New Strategy: let Kuroda finish the game him if he's leading.
2008-06-06 22:16:50
47.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
For the season, second-best GS in the National League; tied for fourth in all of MLB.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bestgames
2008-06-06 22:17:15
48.   jujibee
Great game! I'll be flying in from northern California tomorrow for the game Anyone know how to get 4 tickets...non-bleacher?
2008-06-06 22:17:16
49.   still bevens
Big props for Kuroda and Ardoin. Great game!
2008-06-06 22:17:18
50.   Eric Stephen
39
...Derek Lowe at Wrigley. 8/31/05

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200508310.shtml

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-06 22:17:41
51.   underdog
I do think Ardoin is more of a good luck charm than Bennett, and seems to call a better game, handle himself behind the plate better, and, heck he even threw in a couple of very emphatic ;-) RBIs today!
2008-06-06 22:18:55
52.   still bevens
48 You might be able to get tickets at the door tomorrow. Stadium looked pretty lean the last two nights and Thursday was a bobblehead night.
2008-06-06 22:18:58
53.   Jon Weisman
44 - Well, since it got no play today until Vin said something, what's your complaint?
2008-06-06 22:19:04
54.   underdog
27 Do you have any other Dodgers on your fantasy team? If you have Lowe, can you bench him tomorrow, por favor?
2008-06-06 22:19:35
55.   Jon Weisman
50 - Nope, Jeff Weaver.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN200509120.shtml

2008-06-06 22:19:37
56.   underdog
Okay, off to go make some stuff up and write, talk to y'all manana.
2008-06-06 22:20:19
57.   sporky
Aw, they all hugged him.
2008-06-06 22:22:12
58.   sporky
Maybe Russell's mustache was the good luck charm.
2008-06-06 22:22:15
59.   Eric Stephen
55
Weaver's game score was only 89. Kuroda's -- and Lowe's -- was 90.
2008-06-06 22:22:49
60.   MollyKnight
This is the Kuroda I was hoping we'd see this year after that awesome game in (back when we all thought the Padres were good)..

I hope Vin feels better.

2008-06-06 22:23:05
61.   Eric Stephen
I'm convinced Russell Martin is so awesome that he actually shaved this morning, and willed the mustache to grow before game time.
2008-06-06 22:23:32
62.   Jon Weisman
59 - Oh, I thought the question was when the last Dodger complete-game shutout was.
2008-06-06 22:23:35
63.   MollyKnight
60--After that awesome game in San Diego, it should read.
2008-06-06 22:24:09
64.   Reddog
Nice to see a complete game. I never understand why, when a pitcher is dominating after 7 or 8 innings and they always take him out and bring in the "closer".

I still remember that game a couple years ago where we were leading the Padres something like 5-1 in the 9th, and Broxton came in and gave up 5 runs and we lost the game.

Any time you take out a dominating pitcher and bring in someone from the bullpen you're tempting fate.

2008-06-06 22:24:20
65.   Bob Timmermann
At the time, June 6, 1944 was considered important enough that baseball called off all its games that day.
2008-06-06 22:24:40
66.   Icaros
62

Both interpretations were of interest. Thanks.

2008-06-06 22:25:52
67.   Eric Stephen
Dodger game scores 90 or above since 1990 (Kuroda's was the 21st):

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/ExSW

2008-06-06 22:26:09
68.   Jon Weisman
Fullerton rallies to within one run in eighth inning.
2008-06-06 22:27:12
69.   Eric Stephen
64
To be fair, Broxton induced at least four outs in the 9th, but Kent and especially Nomar decided to take the inning off defensively.
2008-06-06 22:29:24
70.   CanuckDodger
53 -- I am complaining about Scully's harangue about it, frankly. He can feel whatever he likes about D-Day. It strikes me as wrong and unprofessional for him to be using his position as a baseball game's announcer to be hectoring his audience, in an angry tone, about people -- Who exactly? His fellow countrymen? -- not making a fuss about D-Day. It is like something out of Dana Carvey's Mean Old Man routine on Saturday Night Live.
2008-06-06 22:29:29
71.   Eric Stephen
64
Also, in the game you mention, Kuo came out after 6 innings and 104 pitches. Hardly dominating, although he pitched well. Two relievers preceded Broxton, so it's not like Grady Little took out a dominant starter, as you surmised.
2008-06-06 22:31:48
72.   Jon Weisman
70 - I'm certain that Vin has earned the privilege to express that opinion. Just because it doesn't dovetail with yours doesn't change that.
2008-06-06 22:37:41
73.   SoSG Orel
3 I don't think Vin would mind the redundancy.
2008-06-06 22:38:18
74.   LAT
Great game and beautiful night at the Stadium. (Polar opposite of Wednesaday's game) And as an extra bonus for DT fans they featured Choi's 3 HR game on the Jumbotron (they don't call it that anymore do they?). I can't say I'll be sorry to see Hu go down, like Ceasar before him, a nice glove with no bat just isn't enough. Good to see D. Young getting some ABs. I just wish they came at the expense of JP instead of Ethier. Kent getting thrown out was strange he looked like he was laughing most of the time, almost joking with the umpire and then he all the sudden he gets run. Did they even show it on TV? I'm guessing it went down during a commercial break. All in all, an excellent performance by Koruda and very pleasant night at the stadium.
2008-06-06 22:38:27
75.   Jacob Burch
70 I understand where you're coming from, but I think Vin has a very valid point when the memory, and recognition, of such a day is downplayed in the media by the likes of "Carell jokes about on-screen kiss with The Rock," something is slightly off--whether or not the actual importance of the historically is set in stone.
2008-06-06 22:39:13
76.   Linkmeister
I saw D-Day mentioned on a couple of blogs today; saw the RFK assassination mentioned on a few more yesterday.

I used D-Day to plug Cornelius Ryan's books, including The Longest Day.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/5v3a7c

2008-06-06 22:40:07
77.   Bob Timmermann
http://tinyurl.com/3w7buh
2008-06-06 22:40:16
78.   Alex41592
Sweeney strained his hamstring on Monday against the Rockies, which is why he didn't go to second last night. They have their opening for LaRoche if they want it!
2008-06-06 22:41:58
79.   CanuckDodger
72 -- You obviously don't like my opinion so leave that aside. What, precisely, has Vin NOT earned the privilege to do? He has stood for professionalism in an occupation that is practically a clown act on many MLB broadcasts. So does that mean he gets cut a lot of slack when he DOESN'T act professional? If anything I will hold him to a standard that I wouldn't expect most of his colleagues to meet, and that is the highest compliment I can pay him.
2008-06-06 22:43:22
80.   Eric Stephen
underdog, what is your blog address (or is it the one on Greencine?)?
2008-06-06 22:44:59
81.   Eric Stephen
Jon, I kind of like the little box insert in your posts these days.
2008-06-06 22:47:03
82.   Eric Stephen
80
Nevermind, I found it.
2008-06-06 22:47:33
83.   underdog
80 - mine personal one's underdog.typepad.com

--

A friend of mine just sent me this comment that was posted on one of the most popular Cubs blogs, bleedcubbieblue (Don't they know we're the real blue?)... Probably trying to stir me up in some way.

>>"It really makes you think"
as you watch the Dodgers fans (after their team executed a very good squeeze play) do the wave, barely noticing there is a baseball game going on and we sit here on the edge of our seats (would die for a smell of a ballpark). Do they really deserve a lead over us at all? Plz Cubs pull this win out.<<

2008-06-06 22:49:18
84.   nick
70 as a Canuck myself, I understand Canuck Dodger's point, and would cautiously speculate that different national attitudes towards the public display of patriotic sentiments may be at stake here.....that said, I won't comment further!
2008-06-06 22:50:41
85.   sporky
Andy draws a walk with 2 on, 2 out in the 9th while down a run.
2008-06-06 22:51:27
86.   Eric Stephen
From Dylan Hernandez in the Times:

"Jeff Kent, ejected Friday, will sit today [Saturday]"

Options I'd Like to See
1) LaRoche called up and starts at 2B, Sweeney DFA
2) Delwyn starts at 2B

Options That Will Happen Instead
Maza will start at 2B

2008-06-06 22:52:26
87.   Gen3Blue
What interests me about this game, having formative games in the 60's and 70's is how in those days the great players used to do things with seeming intent. I would think this was my being naive, but I don't really believe it. In the early 60's when the Dodger's weren't hitting the Dodger pitchers seemed to try and throw shutouts(complete games were almost the rule then).
Looking back at Maury Wills, his stats are rather similar to JP. But in that era, a run meant a great deal more than today.
Also, there seemed to be purpose. If it got to the seventh 0-0, then Wills always seemed to get on base and steal second and third. Then score! Stats seemed a poor mirror. If a pitcher needed a run, he got one.
2008-06-06 22:53:13
88.   Reddog
71.
Good points, I stand corrected. Also, I do remember now how Nomar made some key error that inning.

On another note, I'm pleased Delwyn Young is getting his chance to show Torre that he's a good hitter. I wish our everyday outfield was Kemp, Ethier and Young.

Maybe after Furcal comes back, Torre will play Young over Pierre, at least against southpaws.

2008-06-06 22:57:00
89.   Bob Timmermann
84
Actually that makes this a bit more understandable.
2008-06-06 22:57:34
90.   Eric Stephen
88
Pee Wee hits better against RHP, at least in his limited MLB time thus far (no idea about his minor league numbers).

Pierre strikes me as a guy who isn't much different against RHP or LHP. He has slightly better career numbers against RHP as one would expect, but this year he's been good against LHP and putrid against RHP. Kind of weird.

But I agree, Delwyn should cut into Pierre's (and only Pierre's) playing time.

2008-06-06 22:57:45
91.   Jon Weisman
Is it really unprofessional to ask for something to get more attention? The guy's not exactly acting like a shock jock.
2008-06-06 23:02:33
92.   CanuckDodger
84 -- That's not where I'm coming from. And whether people agree or disagree with me about World War II is irrelevent. I really object to a sports announcer editorializing about something that has nothing to do with the sport he is covering, and to do it in an angry tone just makes it worse. I like Vin Scully and the way he calls a baseball game. I have defended the way he does his job to friends of mine who say they don't like him. It just really bothers me thinking of him sounding, on a Dodger broadcast, like Rush Limbaugh (or substitute the name of any other talk radio controversialist of a different ideology, if you prefer).
2008-06-06 23:03:09
93.   LAT
86. I know its a day game after a night game but Kent didn't play all that long tonight. He is red hot right now, why sit? Play out the hand Jeff.

More importantly, I had a Ruby's chocolate shake tonight at the stadium (OK really daughter ordred it but I drank half) and it was really good. As the self-appointed S. Irene Virbila of Dodger Stadium, I approve of the addition of Ruby's.

2008-06-06 23:11:04
94.   JoeyP
I agree with Canuck. It's unprofessional for Vin to get political on air. Its never a "right" anyone earns, no matter if they've broadcasted for 50 years or 5 years. Just call the game.

And for the record, I recognize the importance of D-Day, love that "God Bless America" is sang in the 7th inning, and listen to Rush everyday at work.

But, Vin's got no place to get political at a sporting event IMO.

Great game by Kuroda.
He was perfect.

2008-06-06 23:19:08
95.   Jon Weisman
I honestly did not think remembering D-Day was a political issue, let alone a divisive political issue.

We'll agree to disagree and move on.

2008-06-06 23:21:48
96.   Reddog
Since we're really lacking power this season, I'm wondering do we have anybody in the minors who's showing a lot of home run power? Is Lambo someone who might give us a home run threat, albeit in two or three years?
2008-06-06 23:22:01
97.   CanuckDodger
The best thing about Kuroda's performance, to me, is that it came after he pitched a terrible game, on Sunday. The bad game did not shake his confidence, and perhaps it made him stonger, if I may go all Nietzschean for a moment.
2008-06-06 23:22:08
98.   caseybarker
I didn't hear the commentary by Scully and the tone he used, but it didn't look political to me. And he has commented in the past on important events in history--most notably for me, the Watts riots.
2008-06-06 23:22:58
99.   Brent Knapp
65 I wonder when MLB found out about D-Day...did they cancel games after the invasion had occurred, or did people in the US know the invasion was happening before it occurred. I know (at least I think) that Germany expected it to be happening soon, but I wonder how many people other than the military knew when exactly it was going to happen.
2008-06-06 23:24:01
100.   CanuckDodger
96 -- Lambo Calrissian will do it all.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-06 23:24:51
101.   LAT
Just saw the ESPN clip of Kent getting tossed. My mistake--he definitly was not joking around. Its just he's got those Matt Dillon Something About Mary chompers that make it look like he's always smiling.
2008-06-06 23:25:42
102.   Bob Timmermann
99
I think the Commissioner found out the same time everybody else did. The operation started in the morning and there was a five-hour time difference.

And since most games didn't start then until 2 at the earliest, there was ample to call off the schedule.

2008-06-06 23:29:29
103.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Torre says Furcal's return date is targeted for June 17.
2008-06-06 23:32:03
104.   bhsportsguy
101 Pleasure seeing you and meeting your daughter tonite at the game. Leave it to her to know Rick Fox as the guy who is in Ugly Betty.
2008-06-06 23:38:23
105.   Linkmeister
102 Unlike the NFL, which had two days following the JFK assassination and one day following the Oswald murder and still played a full schedule that Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_NFL_season

Rozelle did later say it was the biggest mistake of his career.

2008-06-06 23:42:44
106.   LAT
104. Good hanging out with you as well. Are any of those guys you were with posters here?
2008-06-06 23:44:40
107.   LoneStar7
yet again, my godfather from England comes to a game with me just in time for a victory...seriously hes got a perfect record with me at dodger games, gotta love it...tonight as an awesome performance, and the ravine was pumped up
2008-06-06 23:48:54
108.   bhsportsguy
106 Nah, I mentioned it to one of them. Maybe he'll check out the site.
2008-06-06 23:50:22
109.   silverwidow
I listened to part of Torre's pre-game conference. Some tidbits on LaRoche:

*He's playing 1B for Vegas on Saturday. Still working on some things defensively, but close to a call-up.

*Torre was told that LaRoche learning the new positions may have impacted his offense somewhat.

*Joe wouldn't commit to playing Andy at 2B for anything but a cameo appearance. He sounds more confortable with him as a 1B/3B guy.

2008-06-06 23:58:31
110.   PDH5204
Jon, please tell Vin for me that we didn't fight that war for OUR freedom. Neither the Japanese nor the Germans/Italians had any design on our freedom. It was, to borrow from Sean Penn's character in the film The Thin Red Line, all about property.

That war was also not about saving the Jews of Europe from extermination, since if it had been, we'd have bombed at least one rail line leading to at least one extermination camp. We didn't.

We fought that war for the same reason we fought in Korea and Vietnam. Again, property [re the war in the Pacific, the Japanese wanted a closed door in China while we wanted an open door for everyone but the Chinese].

Also, I wonder whether Vin will be so upset if no one remembers the significance of June 15. Operation Forager and the invasion of Saipan. Our first invasion of territory held by the Japanese prior to the outbreak of war.

Lastly, not that I want to slight those who served, as that is not my intention, but it was the Russians who won the war in Europe, while it was our forebears who won the war against Japan, with a valuable assist from our Aussie friends, who achieved the first victory over Japanese land forces in that war, near Gili Gili, Milne Bay, New Guinea, in some rather savage combat from mid-August through early September, 1942. I credit the Aussies with the assist not only because it's obvious but also because there was that entry found in the signal log of a dead Japanese soldier later in the war, providing that: Americans are generally weaker than Chinese, but Australians are the strongest.

Sorry, almost forgot, but Mr. Complete Game gets his 1st in America.

2008-06-06 23:59:54
111.   bhsportsguy
I saw one of those small moments in a game that you won't notice unless you happen to be watching the game in person.

After Matt Kemp singled on the first pitch in his second at-bat, as Kemp rounded first, Derrick Lee gave him a little pat at the rear.

I think in ballplayer lingo it was a message of nice going kid.

2008-06-07 00:07:42
112.   Bob Timmermann
111
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
2008-06-07 00:21:06
113.   bablue
Kinda late but just chiming in on the Berroa trade. I think it was a good move. If Berroa can even come close to his career line he'll be much better (offensively) than Hu. He at least has a little pop and can keep near a .300 OBP. Plus then we can send Hu down, letting him get everyday work and not wasting his service time. And its not like we gave up anytihng for him.

Also, someone in the last thread wrote about how we wouldn't give out the money to Kyle Blair but instead wasted money on Berroa. Just wanted to say I know him, and he wanted to go to college, he didn't want to play pro, so the two aren't really related.

And last, I gotta agree with Jon about the D-Day thing. While I hate it when announcers give their political views, I don't really see this as a political issue.

Great win today! Awesome performance by Hiro!!!

2008-06-07 00:39:10
114.   bhsportsguy
NY Times reviews ballpark food, guess which hot dog and overpriced beer gets a thumbs down.

http://tinyurl.com/69xsur

2008-06-07 00:57:37
115.   LoneStar7
I don't know what was a better omen tonight, my english godfather being there, who should basically have a contract given to him by ned for the good fortune he has brought us...or the fact that rental man was there in full force dancing his heart out...gotta love it
2008-06-07 01:01:33
116.   The Trolley Dodger
110 Trying to "one-up" Vin by bringing up Operation Forager is frankly specious. The landing at Saipan, while important and relatively large in scale, pales in comparison to the massive Normandy Landings, in scope, in symbolic importance at the time, in historical significance, and in grim statistics.

None of the Allies, not even Russia, would have made it without US assistance in direct military operations, manufacturing and materiel, and other economic aid. This is not to denigrate the contributions of any of the countries involved in the fight against the Axis, but it was a collective effort. To attempt to retroactively minimize the USA's role in the war is to make the same mistake as the propagandists who make it out to be a solely American victory.

2008-06-07 01:24:35
117.   68elcamino427
Great win tonight.
Kuroda goes all the way with a shutout.
Ardoin has very good actions behind the plate and he called a great game. In the third inning it was easy to see that he and Kuroda had a connection working.

Re: D-Day. Vin was a witness to this part of history. How many of us commenting here today share that perspective?

Just a thought.

2008-06-07 01:26:13
118.   Eric Enders
I think haranguing his fellow citizens for what they do/don't talk about, and the media for what it covers, sort of moves Vin's rant toward the fringes of politics. It didn't bother me. However, I do think he was off base. (Although I understand where he's coming from: Nothing is ever as important, especially when you're old, as the things that happened when you were sixteen and impressionable).

This wasn't any special anniversary of D-Day. This wasn't one of the many holidays we set aside for remembering veterans. To remember and recognize an event like the 64th anniversary of D-Day is well and good, but to harangue someone for not doing it is unnecessary.

Regardless of the reasons we fought World War II, a lost life in battle is certainly something worth reflecting on. But why do we have to be chastised for not doing it on this particular day, during the particular hour that Vin happened to be listening to the news? There are many things in life worth reflecting on, many people worth honoring. Of all the battles, of all the dead soldiers, why is this the only one that counts? Or is it just the only one that's lecture-worthy?

How are we going to enforce which military actions must be remembered by every well-meaning citizen on their 64th (or 164th or 264th) anniversary? How about the Battles of Monmouth or Yorktown or Brooklyn? What about the Battle of New Orleans, or Antietam, or Vicksburg, or San Juan Hill? What about the Argonne Forest, or Khe Sanh, or Fallujah? Are we to commemmorate only those battles in which we suffered, or also those in which we caused the suffering (My Lai, Hiroshima, etc.)? Where do we start and where does it end?

And while the soliders who died on the beaches of France certainly deserve our respect for their sacrifices, a number of people are equally deserving of being remembered for sacrifices on behalf of their country. Abraham Lincoln. Denmark Vesey. Andrew Goodman. Rubén Salazar. I could go on and on. The point is that I don't chastise Vin Scully for failing to note the anniversary of their deaths, and I don't expect him to chastise me for failing to make a hullaballoo on the anniversary of the death of his preferred sacrificial heroes.

2008-06-07 01:43:48
119.   Andrew Shimmin
I went on permanent strike against ABC news on April 6th, 2005 because they did a five minute elegy to the guy who had once been married to Grace Kelly, and didn't bother mentioning Saul Bellow's death.

Everybody bitches when something they think is important gets what they think is short shrift. If it becomes a recurring segment, then it'll be something, but it happened once. Saying he sounded like Rush Limbaugh is perverse.

2008-06-07 02:04:46
120.   CanuckDodger
119 -- I said substitute the name of whatever talk radio controversialist you want for Limbaugh. My point was it sounded like a current events commentator giving an editorial. Limbaugh was the first person to come to my mind because he is, or was (for all I know), the most prominent person in that field in the US. And because Limbaugh, to me, always sounds angry when he does his commenting, which was the tone in which Scully, usually a very genial on-air personality, made his comment.
2008-06-07 03:36:07
121.   Andrew Shimmin
120- I interpret that to mean you apologize for having so impugned him, retract everything you said, and implore him to forgive you.
2008-06-07 03:53:57
122.   Louis in SF
87
Very late to this party but glad the Dodgers won. Your point about the Dodger teams of the 60's is correct and would add two other points.
1) the second place hitter often Gilliam was exceptionally disciplined at the plate and could foul off many pitches so Wills could run and try and steal.

2.) Speaking of Vin he would always remark how Willie Davis was faster than Maury, but Wills was a better base stealer and could read pitchers better. JP who probably is as fast if not faster than Wills doesn't strike me yet as someone who can steal at will like Wills.

3.) One other note in my mind about the 60's Dodgers because the offense was so poor, the situational hitting was excellent. Driving men in from 3rd with less than 2 outs seemed automatic, (don't know where you can research that) but the 2008 version does not seem strong in that catagory. Sadly at the end of the year when Jeff Kent ends up leading this club in homers with under 25 but more than 20, everyone has got to contribute, since power is not going to carry this ballclub

2008-06-07 06:27:17
123.   D4P
What a 29-32 record gets ya:

AL East:
6th place

AL Central:
3rd place

AL West:
4th place

NL East:
5th place

NL Central:
6th place

NL West:
2nd place, thank you very much

2008-06-07 06:30:06
124.   Ken Noe
Hmmm. Kevin Baxter writes in the newest The Sporting News that the Dodgers indeed tried to trade Pierre earlier but couldn't, but are now glad they didn't due to Furcal's injury. Baxter wonder about Pierre's situation when Furcal is healthy. Adds that Kemp and Ethier aren't going anywhere. Can't find an online link.
2008-06-07 06:33:04
125.   Gen3Blue
122 That is late enough on the E.coast to be early and I might normally be up if I didn't insist on trying to stay awake for West coast games. I'm glad someone remembers it somewhat as I do.
2008-06-07 06:53:19
126.   D4P
124
I choose to disbelieve that Ned tried to trade Pierre. For one thing, I see no reason to believe that either he or Torre is displeased with Pierre's performance or style of play.
2008-06-07 07:36:43
127.   Bob Timmermann
Seemed to me that Vin was a lot more restrained than Don Cherry of the CBC.

The comments in 110 made me ill, but fortunately 116 showed some perspective.

2008-06-07 08:06:25
128.   Disabled List
I apologize for a possible Rule 2 violation, but there's a lot of ignorance in post 110 .
2008-06-07 08:11:43
129.   Greg Brock
You dirty hippies!
2008-06-07 08:17:10
130.   Eric Stephen
114
BH, that was a good article.

My one contention was this: Peter Meehan mentioned Ruby's Diner and Canter's Deli "are only available to holders of expensive field-level tickets"

He could and should have went to those spots during batting practice! In fact, I'm kicking myself for not doing so last month. I'll be at the game two weeks from today, and I plan to enjoy Canter's Deli -- for the first time ever, btw -- for that one.

2008-06-07 08:19:55
131.   immouch
re vin's comment:
first, here's a story that was on the front page of the oc register. it's about d-day.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/beach-says-day-2060937-tuley-stanley

so, while i love vin, it's a bit frustrating to run this story (i edited it) and have the world's favorite announcer suggest all media ignored the day. sigh.
anyway, the other issue to note is the commentary of 110 and beyond. while i make no claim to intricate, detailed historical knowledge of the battles of ww II, and i definitely don't buy into the propogandist history we've all been bathed in since we were little kids, i'd argue the bigger reason so many americans gave their lives in japan and europe was so that ideas such as those expressed in 110 can be expressed, no matter how insulting and idiotic they may seem.

2008-06-07 08:24:56
132.   Ken Noe
126 Who knows for sure. I think I'll stay in Baxter's world, and pretend that they're grooming Pee Wee to replace JP if Jones is done.

As for this WW2 discussion, my grandparents who raised me were of that generation. My grandfather fought in the Pacific, his brother in Italy. D-Day was never a day they particularly noted, other than it was my father's birthday. My sense is that Tom Hanks and Spielberg have helped 6/6 evolve into more of a commemorative moment today than it was for that generation. Certainly I've toured the "Band of Brothers" sites myself. But that said, I do think 110 goes too far in denying the sense both of my old boys felt, that they literally were trying to rescue their nation and others from something truly evil.

2008-06-07 08:25:16
133.   D4P
RIP Jim McKay. I always liked Jim.
2008-06-07 08:28:48
134.   Bob Timmermann
"The thrill of victory....
The agony of defeat."
2008-06-07 08:41:52
135.   Jon Weisman
I think, as anyone knows, I wouldn't have made this post if I had thought it would kick off a political discussion. I definitely regret doing so now.

New post up top.

2008-06-07 08:45:24
136.   Bob Hendley
110 - "Our first invasion of territory held by the Japanese prior to the outbreak of war."

Saipan in the Marianas was certainly not the first island invaded by the US that Japan held before the outbreak of the war. The campaign of the Northern Pacific involved a series of invasions in micronesia (some 2,200 islands in an area the size of the US) that had been held by the Japanese prior to the outbreak of the war. Micronesia, including Saipan, were a trusteeship of the League of Nation given to Japan after WWI. These islands had previously been held by Germany, which had purchased them after the Spanish-American War. The US had not bothered to claim them after the war.

2008-06-07 11:03:30
138.   Bob Hendley
110 - My comments were actually directed to your materialist view of the war, and I imagine all wars (and human activity) in general. Hard for me to disagree, though I think trying to separate things and ideas can be less enlightening than one would suppose. My comment was more to the use of the example of Saipan to buttress your argument, which I see basically as a tactical decision. I mean, had they not decided to invade this particular island then the war would have been about ideas? That it was decided to bomb Japan into submission instead of invading an indication that the war was about ideas?
2008-06-07 11:24:58
139.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 135

Just a helpful word of advice, Jon, and I hope I don't sound too presumptuous--questions of wartime memorialization are always politicized. What wars we should memorialize, how we should memorialize them, whether or not we should even do such a thing--there's a reason why professional historians as of late have worked so much on questions of "memory." Vin's a patriotic guy in the usual sense of the term, and that in and of itself says something about his attitude toward the larger national polity--not everyone will agree with his attitudes. It may be wrong to classify his opinions as actually political--as a professional historian, I actually prefer a more narrow definition of "politics," but that's in effect irrelevant in this sort of context, because enough people (like 110 ) prefer a more capacious definition of politics to make this sort of post a potential lightening rod.

BTW, I do have some actual substantive thoughts about 110 , but I think it'd be best to leave them to myself in this sort of forum.

2008-06-07 11:58:05
140.   Mike De Leon
I guess I'll weigh in on this. I had no problem with Vin's statement and acknowledgement of D-Day. For those of you who dismiss it and think it wasn't that significant show you're ignorance. The D-Day invasion was the first major offensive in Western Europe and gave the allied forces their first foot hold in Western Europe. It was also the straw that broke Germany's back. Without the invasion the war would have drug on and countless more lives would have been lost, on both sides. Does the fact that fathers and grand-fathers don't speak of it lessen it? Not at all, my father was at Omaha and never spoke of it until I pinned him down and asked him about it. The fact is that most of the GI's in WWII didn't believe they were doing something that others wouldn't do, they had a job to do and did it to the best of their ability. To denigrate someone for remembering it is assinine, just because you'd rather not hear about it and be reminded that every generation that has come after, including mine, doesn't come close to measuring up to the WWII generation and would crumble under the sacrifices those people had to endure.

110. Is extremely offensive. If the U.S hadn't had entered into the war, Euorupe would have been lost to Germany the same way that if the U.S. hadn't had fought in the Pacific, Japan would have won. Do you really believe the U.S could have stood alone when surrounded by enemies?

2008-06-07 12:07:27
141.   Andrew Shimmin
Wow. Haven't seen WWSH in a while. Some good came of this!
2008-06-07 13:03:10
142.   ToyCannon
I'm glad you made the post Jon. The intelligence of this site comes to bear when we don't just dabble in baseball.
2008-06-07 15:51:51
143.   Bob Hendley
118 - Bob is particularly fond of the Battle of Yorktown or, rather, the outcome.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.