An NPUT already? I still need group therapy from the Laker game last night.

After Game 1, I warned everyone to stop watching the NBA Finals. And just like Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't help Luke once he left Dagobah before completing his training, I can't help you now.

LAT'd from below (not that anyone necessarily wants to read this)-

Painful losses, by team -

Dodgers-
-Clark and Ozzie Smith (I treat them as one game)
-Reggie Jackson's thigh
-The Joe Morgan game
-can't pick out a single game, but the 91 stretch drive stunk

Lakers
-the game in the 84 finals where Worthy threw the ball away
-the Sampson shot in the first round (was that 86?)

Cal (this could get long)
beating Southern Miss by only 10 in 2004
1990 Big Game (though I contend this game didn't actually happen)
2004 USC
2006 USC
2006 Arizona
Pick a game from the second half of 07 (Oregon State ferinstance)
1994 NCAA tournament first round loss to Wisc-Green Bay
1994 hoops loss to OSU on the last day of the season to blow conference title
1991 or 2 hoops loss to USC at home, leading by 5 with less than 30 seconds to play
1993 hoops loss at home to WSU, leading by 20 in the second half

Special category, Cubs
2003 Bartman game - I'm not really much of a Cubs fan, but that one weighed on me, mostly because my dad was crushed.

Last night's Laker game was brutal to be sure, but my interest in the Lakers is so diminished from earlier in the decade, that it just didn't get to me emotionally.

I always used to wish the Dodgers would play the Tigers in the World Series just so I could see them play at Tiger Stadium. I do like the look of Comerica Park though, at least from afar in TV land.

Man, last night was depressing....

So what's all this Dodger trade talk about???

Would people here be OK if losing Kemp meant Gaining Bay?

I just want Torre to start the best lineup....he has cost the Dodgers more wins than any "manager" should.

2

A sage you were, mmmmm?

I think it's tough because it's the Celtics. I also don't understand the "I care less about them now than I used to" business. What changed about the Lakers that makes them less important now? It's still OUR team!

But really, the Lakers doubly exceeded our expectations this year. I just wouldn't be nearly as upset if, say, it was the Cavs or the Pistons on the verge of closing us out.

no, trading kemp would not be good. did all of these "rumors" just start from rosenthal? do we think that he got his idea from colletti and, if so, are we worried that he might do something crazy like trade the bison for jason bay?

No sympathy for Lakers fans from this Suns fan. At least your team GOES to the Finals.

6
You care a lot more passionately about things when you're younger for the most part. I cared last night, but I cared more in 1984.

But in 24 years, a lot of stuff happens. My metaphorical personal bridge has a Mississippi River's worth of water under it since then.

Your hydrology may vary.

3
The Sampson shot was Game 5 of the Western Conference Finals, the season before I started watching. I never got any retroactive anger from that shot -- even though it was amazing and ridiculous, and I can still see Michael Cooper laying on the floor with his arms folded above his forehead -- because the Rockets did win the series in 5 games.

You care a lot more passionately about things when you're younger for the most part

Especially things like sports.

7- I am very emotionally attached to the idea of the Bison staying a Dodger, but Bay is a fantastic player. I've just been hearing a ton of rumors...and I need something to distract from the Lakers fiasco.

I am much more open to a trade that involves player that are not prarie roaming bovine. That said, this team would do a lot better if ummmm Torre sat Pierre...nevermind.

What changed about the Lakers that makes them less important now?

I'm not sure you're actually looking for an answer to this, but here goes. The 2000 to 2002 run wherein the Lakers were winning championships without the slightest bit of joy or camaraderie was a huge turnoff. What's wrong with winning championships? Why such a overwhelming need to determine who's the alpha dog? (The answer of course, is that everyone wants to be like Mike.) I recognize that the current Lakers are a different group, but we are still less than 12 months removed from some serious drama with this team. Plus, while I've begun to appreciate the current Lakers as the season has worn on, I've still found it difficult to reintegrate watching NBA games into my routine. In short, I've found it fairly easy to live without.

If I was 10 years old, last night might have made me cry.

I guess I'm lucky that I didn't actually have to WATCH the Laker game.

12

i love matt kemp as much as the next guy, but i wouldn't be opposed to trading him for someone who is obviously better now and will be for the next few years. but its just disheartening to know he could have brought miguel cabrera and now we're talking about jason bay

16- MCab is sizing up to be a flop, while Bay is OPSing over 900....

10 Speaking of which, how ridiculous was Coop during the local postgame show last night? There's a not-so-fine line between analyst, former player, and fanboy.

18
Was he on KABC after the game? I am in San Diego, and I didn't really watch the postgame anyway.

17 "sizing up", eh?

Does anybody know if MLB2K8 or The Show have old stadiums you can play with?

dont we think its a little early to call a 25 year old with a career 141 ops+ a flop?

I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago, and since we are in Detroit it's semi-relevant:

Who were the greatest pair of outfield teammates ever? I'm thinking a decade or so together, with each player holding his own (i.e. 140+ OPS+ from each guy, not just Ted Williams and anybody).

Tigers, 1916-1926
Ty Cobb: 161 OPS+ in 6147 PA
Harry Heilman: 149 OPS+ in 6424 PA

Yankees, 1939-1949
Joe DiMaggio: 165 OPS+ in 4563 PA
Charlie Keller: 153 OPS+ in 4465 PA

The Tiger duo gets points for quantity, although the difference in PA is pretty much due to WWII.

Some other notable teammates:

Pirates, 1962-1972
Roberto Clemente: 146 OPS+ in 6418 PA
Willie Stargell: 144 OPS+ in 5265 PA

Yankees, 1960-1966
Mickey Mantle: 178 OPS+ in 3400 PA
Roger Maris: 140 OPS+ in 3475 PA

Braves, 1962-1972
Henry Aaron: 162 OPS+ in 6374 PA
Rico Carty: 143 OPS+ in 3098 PA (missed 1968 & 1971)

Most painful loss and it wasn't even my team so to speak was the Angels losing to Boston in 1986.

My favorite player, Bobby Grich was a strike away from going to the World Series and in moments, it was gone.

The Angels were the first team to win the first 2 games in a best out of 5 Championship Series and then lose. When they won 3 out of 4, it was now a best out of 7, and they never won a game.

After that, sure the Lakers won 5 more times, the Dodgers had 1988 but I think that loss made me a little less invested in sports.

So while losses are annoying (all I said to myself last night was get to a 100, get to a 100), I realize that especially with the NBA, I really can't complain too much.

5 - Would people here be OK if losing Kemp meant Gaining Bay?

Um, no. Kemp is already as good as (if not better than) Bay, younger, and cheaper.

23 You might want to consider Cobb and Wahoo Sam Crawford (1905-1917).

Crawford tells a story of how he and Walter Johnson were friends so when a game was out of reach, the Senator's catcher would say to Crawford, "Walter likes you today" and he would lay a fastball down the middle for Sam to get a hit. This used to get Cobb all riled up because Johnson always wanted to get Cobb out.

Woah. I left the room momentarily after Romania scored, then came back to find that Italy had scored in the few minutes I was away.

14 - Funny, the only game I've ever cried after was when the UCLA men's basketball team lost to Idaho State in the 1977 West Region semifinals. I was 9 years old.

24 - and don't forget 1995. Biggest collapse by any team to hold a division lead on September 1 (7.5 game lead melted away). Despite all the noise made last year about the Mets' collapse, they only had a three-game lead on September 1, and that's historically fairly iffy. What made it really remarkable was they had the lead ramped up to seven games by September 12, and while I haven't researched, I would be willing to bet that is probably the worst late collapse in major league history with so few games to play with so large a lead.

26
Excellent call! Here are Cobb & Crawford together (removing 1905 & 1917 since there was limited playing time for one of them)

Tigers, 1906-1916
Ty Cobb: 185 OPS+ in 6430 PA
Sam Crawford: 147 OPS+ in 6907 PA

The worst loss for me was probably the Rams-Patriots Super Bowl. Course, I can now rest peacefully knowing the Patriots had to cheat to win.

21 MVP Baseball 2005 (best baseball game I've ever played) has some old stadiums. It's a shame EA lost their MLB license.

29
1964 Phillies were up 6.5 games with 12 to play.

2007 Mets were up 7 games with 17 to play.

29 - yup, the Metsies' collapse was historic: no team ever had lost so large a lead with so few games remaining:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=270930121

32 I agree. So good, we didn't even call it MVP Baseball 2005. We just called it "Manny."

24 - 1984 loss was much more brutal to me. I was in my early 20's and totally into the Lakers and the Magic era. Worthy's bad pass, and Magic's missteps with the clock at the end of Games 2 and 4 regulation without getting a shot off to win the game outright were tough to take. That team was jut a couple plays away from possible sweeping the series in 4 instead they lost in 7. Thankfully, they learned their lessons the next year. This year's team was a pleasant surprise after the off-season turmoil and despite the disappointment of this Finals series, this year has been a resounding success. Take heart Lakers fans, this team will learn from this adversity. "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." This year's team just may be a little too young and not battle tested enough yet and are getting schooled by the grittier Celtic players. I have loved the Lakers all my life like the Dodgers but it's time to give this Celtics team their due!

Just catching up here.

Yeah, yesterday was one of the more depressing sports days in recent memory for any LA fan. The Dodgers game wasn't super important but was a downer nonetheless, and then the Lakers game, for any Lakers fan, ended in stunningly awful fashion after such a great half+.

I like this Lakers team more than other Lakers teams in recent years so it hits a little harder. But I do think this won't be the last time they make it to the finals in the next few years. And hey, it's not over yet! (Sigh)

Luckily the Dodgers have a day game in Cincinnati next Thursday, so there will be no conflict with Game 7 of the Finals.

The Princeton loss was tough. I really liked that group of players (Charles O, Toby Bailey, JR Henderson, etc). I can't remember who the seniors were on that team though, so the bulk of them probably came back the next year. Still losing in the 1st round while defending the title was bad.

I included the word "nonetheless" for Eric S.

--

Nice analysis on Penny, Tom, and Eric. Interesting stuff.

I think it should be passed on to their staff.

Otherwise... So whom can we trade him for?

Your American League OPS leaders:

#1. Milton Bradley- .333/.454/.629
#2. JD Drew- .324/.430/.562

Thanks Ned.

37 - The fact that they shape up to be so much better next year is reassuring, and takes the edge off this loss. They came so far this year, that making it to the Finals was really unexpected (despite their #1 seed).

Next year, with Bynum back (right?), a full season of Odom and Gasol together, and the continued development of the young players like Farmar and Ariza, they'll be the class of the league.

41
Which GM acquired those guys in the first place...?

41 hahahahhaha. Today, that is adding insult to injury.

41 You mean, thanks JD, for screwing us over and bailing.

So Italy vs. Romania talk forbidden?

46
What, you've got no partisan grandparents involved...?

I'd be very surprised if Odom/Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Fisher start together.

Gasol/Bynum are too similar. They both are centers, with Gasol having a tiny bit more range.

If you put Odom/Gasol/Bynum on the floor---it's going to be a tough matchup defensively. Odom'll have a tough time guarding 3's, and Gasol wont be able to guard the perimeter oriented power forwards.

I think Bynum/Gasol split time. But having that big of lineup on the floor I'd be very susprised. Not too mention, there isnt much outside shooting there.

45--How'd Drew screw the Dodgers? He wanted another 5yr deal and got the Red Sox to acquire him.

Ned could have made an offer after Drew opted out. He could have gave him 5 years.

Instead, those 5 years went to Juan Pierre.

Drew made the right career move because the Red Sox organization values his skills much more than the Dodgers.

Other painful losses:

1978 World Series
Nettles glove in Game 3
Reggie's hip/thigh in Game 4 turned the series around.

USC v. Texas National Championship game Reggie Bush's ill advised pitch in the open field in the first half when SC had the momentum really hurt. 4th and 2 run by White - no Bush in the backfield as a decoy-big mistake. I hurt for my friend who was involved in a bitter custody battle with his ex-wife who grew up in Austin, Texas. She was forcing my friend into bankruptcy because my friend wanted to be a good father and a part of his son's life, so that game meant everything to him-a Symbolic victory if SC would have won.

1974 NCAA Semifinal hoops - UCLA loses in Double OT to NC State breaking 7 year winning streak. My first experience with UCLA basketball losing a chance at a title since I started following sports.

1972 Olympic Men Basketball Final - The Biggest Fix there ever was in any team sporting event!! Enough said. I was eleven or twelve and I was livid for weeks. That started in earnest my distrust and hate for referees.

47
The other grandparents are English and Irish and not involved in Euro 2008.

48 I'm sure Bynum/Gasol will play at least 5 minutes a game together, but yeah, they'll probably split most of the time and Phil will probably make sure at least one of them is in the game at all times.

48
Next year's Bynum integration will certainly be interesting. I think it could work, but Odom might be the new 6th man. Bynum will primarily be in the low post, and Gasol can man the high post. Put Vujacic as the SG (Kobe at SF), and I still think the offense can function at a high level.

It doesn't get any worse for me than 1966 Dodgers and 1969 Lakers.

48 - You don't think Odom can handle the 3? Other 3's in the league are Josh Howard, Ron Artest, Kirilenko, Carmelo. Odom can stay with those guys as well as anyone else on the team. I think he creates matchup problems against a lot of those guys.

And they can always go small against the quick teams like Golden State, and put Odom at the 4.

49 Probably no need to rehash that whole scenario for everyone, but Drew was in the 2nd year of a five year deal. The fact that there was an opt-out clause in that contract after two years gave Drew the option, sure, but it was a) dumb to have that 2 year opt out in the contract in the first place and b) still very surprising to everyone on the Dodgers that he chose to bail after two. So the idea that they should have offered him a 5 year deal during the 2nd year of a five year contract seems ridiculous to me. I also though Colletti did offer him something but that it was so out of the blue and last minute and they were so p'o'd at him they let him go. So in that respect, yes, they probably should've done more to keep him, but I don't think it would've mattered from everything I've heard about Drew and that situation.

Seriously, I don't really want to defend Colletti but in that situation to not at least be able to look at Drew critically at all in it seems really blind to me.

I felt bad for Sasha at the end of the game last night when Ray Allen went by him. Sasha had played really well this series up to that point.

54
You mean 1966 was worse than 1962?

Not being around for either, but 1962 was a good team choking and choking hard and 1966 was a good, but flawed, team running out of gas at the end.

56
The thing I didn't like about the Drew affair was the complaining by Colletti. There's no way he shouldn't have been prepared for Drew opting out, regardless of what J.D. may have said during the season or up to that point.

59
Yeah. Ned acted like Drew broke a promise or something and Ned got his feewings hurt.

I used to root for the Lakers in those epic Lakers/Celtics matchups of the 80s, but I think Kobe Bryant is a slimy individual (and lousy teammate), so I find myself cheering on the Celtics this time around.

agree with Eric. It's on the GM to cover the bases, put some new language in a new deal during the year, and not just take a guy's word halfway through the season. Basically Colletti hoped Drew would stay, assumed it, and didn't plan any other way.

haha, and this coming from a guy who worked in PR? Didn't see a spin coming.

56-It wasnt dumb. It was perfect because the Dodgers got a very good player at 2yrs/22mils. It would have been fine if he opts out, bc it likely meant he played really well. If he didnt opt out, then at least you still got him for a reasonable contract.

They'd still have an option to resigning him even if he opted out.

And when did Ned offer him anything? I do recall reading in the papers Ned being angry, but you'd think a GM would know that if there's an option that a player may opt out, he should have another contract offer waiting on the table if he does. I dont think there was one.

If you dont want to give JD Drew a 5yr deal. Ok, I buy that. But that logic flys out the window when in the same off-season, you sign Juan Pierre to 5 yrs.

59 I think that's true, too. Colletti came off as a little hurt and naiive as a result of that. My point is more that it shouldn't be overlooked that JD Drew isn't exactly heroic for how he bailed.

I'm not sure it was a bad decision to let him leave. He'll be earning $15M for his ages 33-35 seasons, and has proven to be pretty brittle. He's having an excellent season this year, but so is Aaron Rowand. Who wants Rowand for the next 4 years? And Drew had a poor year last year.

All in all, I don't blame him for opting out, but I also am happy that Ned didn't break the bank for him.

And, of course, the real crime was the knee-jerk Pierre signing. But I don't think that decision should be used as justification for signing Drew to his desired extension.

http://tinyurl.com/3wfyhg
is the official story on that Drew opt-out. Basically proves everything everyone has just said, in some way or another. :-)

Yeah, it sounds like they didn't offer him anything. "If he doesn't want to be here..." etc.

Part of that is Boras' negotiation strategy, something the Dodgers probably didn't want to be a player in. I still feel like, ultimately, Drew was gone, but yeah, they should've still negotiated with him, sucked it up a bit. You can never let emotions get in the way of being a GM.

65 - Heroic, no. But well within his rights, and Colletti's pouting and posturing afterwards seemed like an attempt to distract from the fact that he dropped the ball. Was it Drew's job to report his plans/feelings to the front office, or should a proactive front office (headed by a Great Communicator) stay in touch with a very productive player who holds an opt-out clause in the coming offseason?

Colletti screwed up and blamed it on Drew and Boras, two guys with questionable-to-lousy reputations within the game. All too easy.

58 I remember 1966 just barely and it was painful at my house. My grandmother, God bless her, decided that the O's wore eye black simply because they were evil.

He'll be earning $15M for his ages 33-35 seasons, and has proven to be pretty brittle.

But he really hasnt.
He hasnt been on the DL (other than a broken wrist in 2005), since 2003.

I'd rather pay a good player, and hope he stays healthy---rather than pay a bad player that plays everyday.

70 - Not in terms of DL time, but I remembered his power disappearing similar to Shawn Green. It seemed like his body was breaking down on him.

We'd all like to have JD Drew's 2008 production, but lets not forget that he pretty much stunk the joint up last year. Post season heroics notwithstanding.

Colletti screwed up and blamed it on

Some things never change.

J.D. Drew stinking up the joint > a "hot" Juan Pierre.

I agree with most of what was said about the Drew affair, but I find it almost criminal that the clause existed in the first place.

J.D. Drew 2007 OPS+: 105

Drew didn't suck last year. He got on base well, but he didn't have any power.

Which is better than not getting on base and not having power, if you know what I mean.

1986 Angels, 1978 Dodgers and 1984 Lakers are the tough ones for me. Everything else pales in comparison. That loss last night was tough, and I took it harder than I thought I would, but there weren't memorable plays where the Lakers just choked. They got slowly squeezed and outplayed. I really don't like the Celtics and their style of play, but the Lakers haven't adjusted well.

I find it almost criminal that the clause existed in the first place

Drew presumably wouldn't have signed without the clause. The choice wasn't "sign Drew with clause or sign Drew without clause," but rather "sign Drew with clause or don't sign Drew at all".

Keep in mind: Drew's agent is Boras.

76 which is better than any 2008 Dodger OF at the moment.

The headline on the Dodgers.com Fathers Day story cracked me up for some reason:

"Dad Built Backyard Cage For Loney"

Isn't that illegal?

75 - The cost of getting Drew to come and play for your team. At the time, I figured if he:

- opted-out, it means they got two great years from Drew (which they kinda did, broken wrist aside)
- remains, a 3/$33M contract for a player of Drew's caliber is pretty sweet.

81 - Did he at least feed him, throw him some meat or something?

If only we could have known at the time that the other cost of the opt-out clause was paying for 5 years of Juan Pierre.

81 - Any father would've done the same thing. That kid's got crazy eyes, I tells ya.

80 - But signing Drew to a 5/$75M contract and signing Pierre to his deal are two separate decisions. I don't penalize Ned for passing on JD, but give him -1000 marks for signing Pierre.

Shane Victorino would be a pretty good option for CF right now too. That's a bigger mistake than letting Drew walk, IMO.

Did he at least feed him, throw him some meat or something?

Did his younger brother at least pour one glass of water a day through the hole in the floor?

Matt Kemp is ONLY 23 years old & has not even entered his prime years, I'd keep him if I were the Dodgers, plus I'm not to inamored (sp?) with Bays swing...

Did you see this note on MLBTraderumors?

>>According to MLB.com's Scott Merkin, the White Sox will release Esteban Loaiza prior to today's game.

It was a short-lived experiment; only three innings. The Sun-Times may have the reasoning behind it in today's article. Joe Cowley says Loaiza hadn't been working out or throwing before the Sox signed him, which may be one of the reasons he can barely crack 80 mph.<<

87 Having childhood flashbacks, too, are we?

89 - Previous thread.

J.D. Drew, Milton Bradley, Shane Victorino, and Jayson Werth are a nice set of outfielders.

Just another Rule 8 Violation morn