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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

They Did It! I Missed It!
2008-06-28 22:18
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

It is rare, my friends, rare that I have plans that prevent me from catching even a single pitch of a Dodger game in person, on radio or on television.

Almost as rare as a Matt Kemp cue shot that spins just inside the baseline and then makes a left turn under Jered Weaver's glove for an error.

Almost as rare as the Dodgers winning a game without a hit.

I'm catching up on the highlights now, but man. I am deflated and elated. What a game. What a memory I won't quite have.

I've seen unofficial and official no-hitters by Fernando Valenzuela, Mark Gardner, a perfect Dennis Martinez and Kent Mercker. But this would have been a nice one for the thumb.

But of course, I'm thrilled the Dodgers were on the right side of this one. They were on the right side, right? Right.

* * *

Update: I wrote this in the comments below, but I'm moving it up here. This stuff about Major League Baseball not calling the game an official no-hitter is just stupid. I understand not giving someone a no-hitter when they allow a hit in extra innings. But if a team allows no hits over a complete game, it's a no-hitter. I don't even understand why that would be in question.

Comments (140)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-28 22:27:32
1.   underdog
This goes in the "We'll Take It!" Dept.

Sorry you missed it - there's always the MLBTV archives right? Or someone surely taped it. Or... well, I guess you had to be there.

Baseball's a crazy game. Dodgers have been on the frustrating, wrong end of things quite a few times this season; nice to be on the right end for once.

2008-06-28 22:28:28
2.   Marty
I just finished watching the recording of the game. What a fun game to watch if you are on the right side. Chad was brilliant. I would have given Kemp a hit on that play. I've never seen a ball spin so much before. It spun at least six feet from the foul line.
2008-06-28 22:28:44
3.   sporky
0 I have most of it. If you want a copy, I can send it to you.
2008-06-28 22:29:55
4.   Jon Weisman
3 - I've got it recorded - like I said, I've been catching up. But thanks.
2008-06-28 22:30:16
5.   underdog
Allowed 0 Hits, Lost
Game Year Pitcher(s) Team
2008 J. Weaver, J. Arredondo Angels
1992 Matt Young Red Sox
1990 Andy Hawkins Yankees
1967 S. Barber, S. Miller Orioles
1964 Ken Johnson Colt .45's
2008-06-28 22:30:40
6.   Eric Stephen
I posted this in the last thread but since Jon was at the other two games...

Tonight was only the third game in Dodger Stadium history in which the Dodgers did not get a hit (Mercker, Martinez).

2008-06-28 22:31:43
7.   dzzrtRatt
Hey, you can't watch them all. Your family would kill you and you'd probably get fired to boot. There are books, and DVDs and going to the beach and... all kinds of distractions.

Besides, you have a perfect monument to this game in the last comment thread. Many's the time I missed a special game, but got to experience it vicariously through the words of our little DT-Town's denizens.

2008-06-28 22:31:46
8.   Linkmeister
I was cussing the fact that neither Fox Sports West nor Prime Ticket had the game out here, and now I'm really annoyed. What an odd thing to have seen that would have been.
2008-06-28 22:32:02
9.   underdog
2 Yeah, as I said before, I really feel like that should've been a hit, too. BUT I can understand how it's a tough call for the scorer. And imagine if the Angels won that game and Weaver finishes it, and the cries about it the other way. But looking at it again, it was a tough play for Weaver, no doubt.

And as I also said before but this time mean it, night all! Go Minotaur.

2008-06-28 22:32:55
10.   Jon Weisman
I think the Kemp ruling could have gone either way. The ball did the craziest curve, but it was right into Weaver's glove. You can't ask for much more than that, can you?

This stuff about not calling it a no-hitter is just stupid. I understand not giving someone a no-hitter when they allow a hit in extra innings. But if it's no hits over a complete game, it's a no-hitter.

2008-06-28 22:33:01
11.   Eric Stephen
From Diamond Leung's blog, The Bison™ offered the following:

"I'm pretty excited. It's like we're going to the playoffs or something."

2008-06-28 22:34:06
12.   Don Tordilla
Was at the game, and towards the end I was actually rooting for the no-no because I had a feeling we were gonna win it. Kinda bummed it's not official because we didn't bat 9. There were some fantastic plays, it will go down as my second most memorable game I've seen in person (4+1 being numero uno).
2008-06-28 22:36:07
13.   sporky
And to think, Ethier almost ruined it with a hit!
2008-06-28 22:36:46
14.   dzzrtRatt
Another milestone: With this win, Billingsley is finally at .500 in W-L. Maybe he's getting his confidence back.
2008-06-28 22:37:03
15.   Bluebleeder87
like someone else mentioned earlier WE MUST EN' FORGET how great our pitching has been especially of late... if our hitting catches on fire once spark plug Furcal comes back we can make a serious run at this blushingly bad division (yes, that's my new one) we can run away with this divion, we're only 2.5 games back!!
2008-06-28 22:38:53
16.   Michael Green
I was on an airplane and missed it, and I won't listen to the radio when Vin is not on. Sigh.

But I do kind of see the point here about not calling it a no-hitter. The Dodgers did not make 27 outs. They made 24. If a pitcher pitches no-hit ball for eight innings and comes out of the game, he hasn't pitched a no-hitter. I don't know that I agree with it, but I'm just making the point.

2008-06-28 22:39:06
17.   Eric Enders
Sorry you missed it, Jon. But it'll be a Tivo keeper.

Does your generosity of spirit in the update above extend as far as this?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200610010.shtml

2008-06-28 22:40:31
18.   Eric Stephen
15
Would you say the Dodgers play in "Blushing Meadows"?
2008-06-28 22:41:00
19.   KG16
15 - is anyone else surprised by how bad the division has been? I understand colorado's been hurt and the padres fell off the cliff a year earlier than most expected, but did anyone really expect the snakes to be a .500 team? and the dodgers to be a few games below?

Still, i suspect the dodgers and snakes will separate themselves from the rest and might actually catch up in the wild card race.

2008-06-28 22:42:10
20.   Jon Weisman
Chad Billingsley: 3.38 ERA, 102 strikeouts in 96 innings, 23 years old.
2008-06-28 22:42:27
21.   Eric Stephen
17
Maybe the rule can be amended to reflect if the game itself was 9 innings or more, which would allow for road complete games of 8 innings.
2008-06-28 22:42:38
22.   KG16
16 - if a pitcher, on the road, pitches innings 1 through 8 and his team doesn't have more runs than the home team, he gets credit for a complete game, so why not a no hitter?
2008-06-28 22:43:35
23.   preacherroe
o/t-(Hope it wasn't in the last thread.) Scott Elbert struck out 7 in 3 innings of scoreless relief.News on him and Miller is encouraging for the future.
2008-06-28 22:43:47
24.   Michael D
This was amazing and yet pathetic all at the same time. The offense just blows.

Personally, this is the closest to a no hitter I've ever watched live. Now I just gotta see an official one once.

2008-06-28 22:43:51
25.   Jon Weisman
I6 - If a pitcher throws a complete game and loses, he gets an official complete game. If a pitcher pitches eight innings of shutout ball and the remainder of the game is rained out, he gets a shutout. Why should a no-hitter be any different?
2008-06-28 22:43:54
26.   Eric Enders
Responding to Chiron Brown from the last thread.

289 "I'll give credit to Kemp for have the skill set of Pierre. But he made the play at the plate much closer than it should have been. If he continues to play that casually he's going to have a moderately successful career in Kansas City or Pittsburgh."

Well, maybe. But the thing you're criticizing Kemp for is something that affected the game not one whit. And thus doesn't support an argument that Kemp didn't help win the game.

Should Kemp have run harder on the sac fly? Yeah, maybe. I don't think the play was as close as you seem to think it was. Guerrero made the best throw humanly possible and still there was no semblance of a play at the plate. Kemp had zero chance of getting thrown out on that play.

And the notion that Kemp isn't a hustler is false, anyway. "Casually" is the word that best describes the exact opposite of Kemp's playing style. When was the last time he didn't bust his butt on an actual play? The guy hustles. A lot. More than most guys on the team. And often hustles too much for his own good. The idea that lack of hustle will land him in Pittsburgh or Kansas City is laughable. His attitude, if it gets worse, might land him in one of those places. His poor plate discipline might, also. But a lack of hustle? Not a chance in the world.

(Our man, incidentally, just got referred to on SportsCenter as "Matt Camp.")

2008-06-28 22:44:32
27.   Jon Weisman
17 - See 25.
2008-06-28 22:45:25
28.   ToyCannon
I have to agree with MLB, 24 outs is not 27.

The important thing is not that we didn't get a hit but that we have won two games in a row against an AL team, a division leading AL team, the best road record in baseball AL team, our interleague rivals, and we did it by holding them to zero runs over two games.

Good thing because Lackey might throw a real no no at us.

2008-06-28 22:45:36
29.   Chiron Brown
10 I agree with you. But what if after six innings the game was stopped by rain? It's an official game. Should Weaver get credit for a no-hitter?
2008-06-28 22:46:45
30.   Linkmeister
26 Heh. Son of Rick, you think?
2008-06-28 22:47:38
31.   ChicagoDodger
25 A No-hitter is a rare achievement. To give one pitcher a no-hitter for only throwing 8 no hit innings (whatever the reason may be) doesn't seem particularly fair to those pitchers who see their no-hitters broken up in the 9th.

Just my opinion though.

2008-06-28 22:48:20
32.   Jon Weisman
Unrelated, but I'm shocked that Allyson Felix did not qualify for the Olympics in the 100.
2008-06-28 22:49:10
33.   Eric Enders
17 "Maybe the rule can be amended to reflect if the game itself was 9 innings or more, which would allow for road complete games of 8 innings."

The rule already says exactly that, actually. "A game of at least 9 innings." The official interpretation of which is, games like tonight's don't count. But it's just another of the hundreds of examples of baseball rules that are poorly or ambiguously written.

They need to blow up the whole rule book and start over, basically.

2008-06-28 22:51:12
34.   sporky
Is there a convenient way to find out how many potential no-hitters were broken up in the 9th?
2008-06-28 22:52:46
35.   nick
surely, given modern technology's ability to sort between 8, 9 10, 11, etc inning no-hitters, the pedantry of MLB can be ignored?

that said, I agree with 25 's logic.

2008-06-28 22:52:53
36.   PDH5204
19 Actually, the DBacks lineup doesn't impress me at all. Coming into today, their OBP was the same .321 as last year. This is what they should have been last year with a .321 OBP. The Angels are this year's last year's DBacks, as coming into today their OBP was a wretched .318.

10 Jon, why is it "stupid"? In both instances, the pitcher is being "punished" for his hitters not having scored enough so that he might simply do his 9 and be done with the thing. The "lost the no-no in extras" has a better case since, well, how many no-hitters have been lost in the 9th?

2008-06-28 22:52:56
37.   Eric Enders
34 My pal Stew is the man you're looking for.

"Lost in the Ninth
No-Hitters Broken Up in the Ninth Inning Since 1961"
http://milkeespress.com/lostninth.html

2008-06-28 22:53:35
38.   ChicagoDodger
34

http://milkeespress.com/lostninth.html#summary

2008-06-28 22:54:45
39.   Jon Weisman
31 - Nothing personal with you or those agreeing with you, but I honestly can't believe people are making this argument. No other aspect of baseball makes a distinction between an official game of nine innings and an official game that is not nine innings.

Is a dog with three legs not a dog? Do the Angels get .889 losses tonight? No. It's a game. They allowed no hits. It's a no-hitter.

And unless they change the rule to prevent complete games and shutouts being allowed for games less than nine innings, there is truly no argument that a no-hitter should be nine innings.

As for it being a rare achievement, it's not as if baseball would be flooded with no-hitters that weren't nine innings.

2008-06-28 22:55:13
40.   Eric Enders
I come into my own when Bob's not around!
2008-06-28 22:55:31
41.   ToyCannon
26
Having watched Kemp in person instead of on TV I have seen him NOT bust his butt more then once. Tonight was just another example. That run was to important to be so casual about it.

He can do a 10 minute Mickey Rivers shuffle walk to the dugout after he scores the run for all I care.

2008-06-28 22:56:17
42.   Linkmeister
37 Seaver's in there in 1969. It continues to amaze me that no Mets pitcher has ever thrown a no-hitter.
2008-06-28 22:56:24
43.   Louis in SF
Underdog mentioned it earlier that with Furcal coming back next week with Jones and Nomar on the way shortly after, I do think we are a team on the rise.

Just focusing on shortstop and Furcal, some quick and dirty numbers indicate that if Furcal plays about 65-70 games and has about 250 AB's-decent probabilities, and hits 300 during that time, he would have 75 hits and based on his career ratio of hits to extra base hits his extra base hits would equal 25. It would then work out to about 14 2b, 7 HR and 4 3b's. I am not factoring in walks.

If he even comes close to these numbers, even 10% less this is a big upgrade over the current SS situation. If Jones can just add some power and Nomar can add a total of 25-35 hits as a PH and utility, hopefully replacing Sweeney, the Dodger hitting improves dramatically without doing too much damage to the team.

Obviously the outfield will be the most complicated, and JP will still get too many AB's, but if Jones were to hit 15 HR's in the remaining 60 or so games he will play that would be a net plus for a team that is power starved!

2008-06-28 22:56:55
44.   Eric Stephen
37
That brought back the memories of Dave Steib's back-to-back heartbreaks:

9/24, Dave Stieb, Toronto at Cleveland, Julio Franco (2 out-1 hit total)
9/30, Dave Stieb, Toronto vs. Baltimore, Jim Traber (2 out-1 hit total)

2008-06-28 22:57:19
45.   Chiron Brown
33 140 years ago the home team batted in the bottom of the 9th even if they were winning. This was mostly for the sake of gamblers. In a time when a team scoring thirty runs in game was common bets were often made on the ratio of runs scored. You would bet that one team would out score the other by 3 to 2 or 2 to 1. So some extra runs in the bottom of the 9th could affect alot of bets.
2008-06-28 22:57:40
46.   Jon Weisman
36 - I'd say punishing a pitcher because of what his hitters failed to do sufficiently meets the definition of stupid.
2008-06-28 22:58:42
47.   Eric Stephen
44
I forgot to mention the Steib games were in 1988.
2008-06-28 22:58:53
48.   Jon Weisman
Sorry - I don't mean to make this great night into something testy. The rule has just always bugged me ever since it was instituted.
2008-06-28 23:00:32
49.   ChicagoDodger
39 Baseball has made a decision (a right one in my mind) that a no-hitter needs to be 9 innings. I beleive that the reason they do is to be able to pitch one, some have to pitch the 9 innings, so it is not fair to those forced to go 9 to not get a no-hitter if they give up a hit in the 9th and yet if a pitcher is lucky enough not to have to pitch 9 full innings he does get credit for going 8.

In my mind, shutouts and complete games should have to go 9 innings as well. I'm not sure why they are not for the same reasons I list for a no-hitter.

2008-06-28 23:01:06
50.   Eric Enders
"it's not as if baseball would be flooded with no-hitters that weren't nine innings."

Ten since 1956, to be exact. Tonight was actually the first time it's happened and the pitcher hasn't finished the game.
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/VJgX

Jon will keep on fighting the good fight to restore the Perez brothers to their rightful place in the baseball universe.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-28 23:02:22
51.   ToyCannon
48
Kind of like a rule about how we can't say no hitter but we get over it without calling it stupid.

Sorry I don't mean to be testy but the odds are high that if 27 batters were faced it would not be a no hitter. Just think of all the no hitters that have been broken up in the 9th inning.

2008-06-28 23:04:28
52.   LAT
Perhaps the rule exists to eliminate the cheap rain-out no hitter.

Has Weaver commented on coming out yet? Not that he would have ever been in the position, but Jeff Weaver would have had a tizzy if he were taken out in that situation.

2008-06-28 23:04:34
53.   Eric Stephen
From the Stew Thornley link:

"Since 1961, approximately 50 percent of no-hitters carried into the ninth made it through the ninth. After the first out of the ninth is recorded, the percentage increases to between 60 and 65 percent. And no-hitters that are still alive with two out in the ninth have a survival rate of nearly 80 percent"

2008-06-28 23:06:00
54.   Jon Weisman
49 - Do you want to go back and give complete games and shutouts to every pitcher who went nine innings or nine shutout innings, but the game goes extra innings?
2008-06-28 23:06:40
55.   LAT
Of course, 30 seconds after my post ESPN airs Weaver's comments.
2008-06-28 23:07:19
56.   ToyCannon
50% percent seems like a high number to me. That would be 1 out of 2 for those keeping score at home.
2008-06-28 23:07:42
57.   ChicagoDodger
54 NO. If the game goes extra it's not a complete game, and if runs are scored in extras then there is no shutout. I wouldn't give credit for a no-hitter if a hit was given up in extra innings either.
2008-06-28 23:07:46
58.   Linkmeister
I want Harvey Haddix to get back the credit for the no-hitter that was taken away from him.

Free Harvey Haddix!

2008-06-28 23:09:21
59.   ToyCannon
Complete games and shutouts are nice accomplishments but no - hitters are historical. If Bo Belinsky had never thrown a no - hitter his name would not have been mentioned in the last 40 years.
2008-06-28 23:10:21
60.   Eric Enders
59 Then tell him he shouldn't have given up a home run.

You can't give up a hit and pitch a no-hitter. It's, like, a rule or something.

2008-06-28 23:10:39
61.   LoneStar7
boy that was just incredible...I guess this game kind of symbolizes the Dodgers strengths and weaknesses about as obvious as possible, but man was I pumped after sammy closed that thing out..

and boy do I love beating the angels

2008-06-28 23:10:43
62.   tjdub
What is the ratio of actual 9 inning no-hitters to no hitters lost in the 9th?
2008-06-28 23:10:48
63.   Eric Enders
58 , I meant.
2008-06-28 23:11:27
64.   ToyCannon
Soon they will call it a complete game if you complete 6 2/3 innings.
2008-06-28 23:12:05
65.   Eric Enders
62 was answered in 53 . It's 1:1.
2008-06-28 23:12:08
66.   Jon Weisman
51 - Plenty of people here have called that rule stupid. I don't take it personally. It only bugs me when people go out of their way to flout it.

Look, if it bothers people that I call the rule stupid, I apologize. But it is a big inconsistency in the rulebook. You guys talk about fairness, but it's an unfair rule. You're penalizing a pitcher or a pitching staff who did everything possible to not allow a hit.

2008-06-28 23:12:23
67.   Marty
We're arguing about Kemp scoring? Whether he was too casual? Vlad made a good throw, but Kemp could have walked on his hands and still scored.
2008-06-28 23:12:32
68.   LoneStar7
61 yikes I'm still so giddy that post made no sense, anyway...exciting stuff
2008-06-28 23:12:48
69.   ToyCannon
62
see 53
2008-06-28 23:12:59
70.   ChicagoDodger
60 Just like you can't pitch 8 innings and pitch a no-hitter. Again, it's like, a rule or something.
2008-06-28 23:13:37
71.   Linkmeister
60 It wasn't a home run (well, it was, but Adcock missed a base). I was just reading about that game over at the fount of all accuracy, Wikipedia.

I suppose you're right, but my lord. 36 up, 36 down. Wow.

2008-06-28 23:13:48
72.   Eric Enders
64 It's not that difficult a concept. You have a baseball game. You pitch the whole thing, you get a complete game. You don't pitch the whole thing, no complete game. I don't see how this is an issue at all.
2008-06-28 23:14:52
73.   Eric Stephen
Also from that Stew Thornley link, not only did Nolan Ryan pitch 7 no-hitters; he also had 5 no-nos broken up in the 9th!
2008-06-28 23:16:19
74.   tjdub
65 sorry don't know how i missed that. Thank you for answering my question faster than I could think of it :)

I'm on the side of calling it a real no hitter if the game goes the official distance or more precisely the winning team gets 27 outs. No rain-shortened no-hitters but in my opinion this one should count.

2008-06-28 23:16:33
75.   Eric Stephen
Joe Adcock was years ahead of his time; he just wanted to keep Harvey Haddix's FIP down.
2008-06-28 23:16:33
76.   Chiron Brown
61 Ditto. I'll settle for a win tomorrow but I would absolutely love to see the Angels get shut out for the series.
2008-06-28 23:17:31
77.   Gagne55
62 49% of no hitters going into the ninth end up being no hitters, historically.

This may sound low, but it's not something that should be unexpected. Assuming the average hitter gets a hit 26-27% of the time, the chance of a hit in a given inning would be around 60%. Of course, given that the pitcher made it to the ninth without giving up a hit, it is more likely that they are a good pitcher, so 50% sounds about right and history shows evidence of that.

2008-06-28 23:17:35
78.   dzzrtRatt
By definition, if you pitch a complete-game shutout, you will pitch nine innings. The only team that wouldn't bat if you were pitching a shutout is your own. If you're in a 0-0 game after eight innings, the bottom of the ninth inning will be played.
2008-06-28 23:17:52
79.   Eric Enders
71 Here's what happened, actually.
- - -

Haddix walked Hank Aaron intentionally to face Joe Adcock. The righty slugger finally collected the Braves' first hit when he launched a walk-off homer over the fence, making Haddix the hardest-luck loser of all time. Adcock's hit was confusing, however, because County Stadium had two fences, one that served as the outfield fence and another behind it. Aaron "saw the ball hit a fence and thought it was the front fence and assumed the ball was still in play," Burdette recalled. Thinking he could stop running once the winning run scored, Aaron peeled off toward the dugout. Adcock was thus called out for passing him on the bases. Instead of 3-0, the official score became 1-0.

2008-06-28 23:17:54
80.   bhsportsguy
Having witnessed both the 4+1 game and tonight's little gem, I still pick the 4+1 game but its a duo to have in the memory bank.

A few observations and shout outs, met Ken Noe and his wife and son, Ken was wearing his official gear. We had a nice chat at the Top of Deck store. I'll let his describe his first thoughts as entered Dodger Stadium for the first time, all I can say is that it would be something for me to capture that first feeling I had when I saw it.

The Dodgers did do a good job of working the count and seeing pitches against Weaver through the first 4 innings, the inning they scored actually went pretty fast.

I mentioned this to a few folks but I'll repeat here for everyone, as some may know, today the Dodgers had their salute to the 1970's Dodgers and several were at the game (and an earlier lunch).

One who was not at the earlier event was Bobby Welch. When they introduced the players, they all went out to their positions, and some of them as they walked out, they would wave towards the visitor's dugout since several members of the Angel's coaching staff are former Dodgers.

So Bob Welch walks toward mound to greet the other 70's pitchers and then he makes right turn and starts walking toward the Angels' dugout.

I'm watching this from my seat and I notice a figure clad in a red jacket, walk out of the dugout and meet Bob Welch a few feet onto to the field. It was Mike Scioscia, who proceeded to give Welch a huge bear hug and Mike was genuinely happy to see Welch. Welch greeted Ron Roenicke and the others and then he went back onto field.

I was really touched by that gesture by Mike Scioscia and it will be lasting memory of seeing Mike hugging Welch that I will take away from today's game.

I also saw Bill Russell greet Duncan before heading out onto the field.

2008-06-28 23:17:57
81.   ChicagoDodger
66 Jon, I don't take it personal, and I don't mind you feeling the rule is stupid.

I just feel that it's unfair to a pitcher who gives up a hit in the 9th to lose a no-hitter when another pitcher lucky enough not to have to pitch 9 innings does get credit for one. And I'm simply waiting for evidence that would refute that feeling.

To me it's akin to Weaver pitching 8 no hit innings tonight and leaving after 8 innings (leading 5-0) because of a high pitch count and still getting credit for a no-hitter whatever the outcome of the 9th were to provide.

2008-06-28 23:18:09
82.   LeeLacy
Does anyone know what the record is for most runs scored by a team that was no-hit?
2008-06-28 23:18:54
83.   ToyCannon
69
I really don't see anything unfair about the rule. 27 outs is 27 outs not 24. If you want to say you pitched a no-hitter then you need to get 27 outs and if you are unable to face 27 hitters because your team couldn't win a game in which you didn't allow a hit, to bad.

And who cares, he only pitched six innings so your feeling bad for a guy who was only able to pitch 6 innings. 6 innings. A gazillion pitchers have pitched a no hitter for 6 innings. A combined no - hitter should mean squat. Hardly an accomplishment.

2008-06-28 23:21:56
84.   tjdub
Maybe I missed this too. Does anyone disagree with Scioscia's decision to pull Weaver?
2008-06-28 23:22:58
85.   Gagne55
Fwiw, a league that bats .265 should produce a no hitter once every 4076 games. (There are 2430 MLB games/yr.) However, since talent is not evenly distributed, no hitters are more common. An elite pitcher (one with an opposing batting average around .200) should pitch a no hitter once every 414 starts.
2008-06-28 23:23:38
86.   ToyCannon
73
Evidently Nolan doesn't fall into the 50% group.

Did Don Sutton have any broken up in the 9th? I seem to remember he pitched several one hitters.

2008-06-28 23:23:40
87.   Eric Enders
You know, they just flashed the official rule again on SportsCenter, and it's pretty clear that the way it's written, tonight's game counts. I know that's not the way it's been interpreted, but that's the way it's written. The rule clearly says that the game needs to be a nine-inning game, not that the pitcher needs to go nine innings.
2008-06-28 23:25:28
88.   ToyCannon
84
No, the name of the game is to win and knowing he was going to be facing Broxton and Saito who struck out all six batters last night, he knew he needed to score now. Seemed like a no-brainer to me.
2008-06-28 23:25:29
89.   dzzrtRatt
They just showed the Kemp sequence on KNBC. If anyone were to ask me:

-- Kemp's squib could have been fielded and Weaver could have thrown him out. He didn't because Weaver took his eye off the ball watching Kemp race to the bag. If it had been a slower runner, Weaver could have made the play with time to spare. It was an error, but an error forced by a baserunner's skills.

-- As great as Vlad is, he had no chance whatsoever to catch Kemp. Kemp ran fast enough to assure the run, and wouldn't have needed to slide.

To sum up:

Official scorer: Correct
Kemp: Manufactured the run with speed and aggressiveness.
DeWitt: Hit the fly ball far enough so that Kemp's run was unavoidable.

2008-06-28 23:25:55
90.   Jon Weisman
81 - Thanks. The evidence is that as long as baseball gives wins and losses - the most important part of the game - for games that are played for less than nine innings on both sides, then everything else should rest on that criteria.

Your Weaver analogy doesn't work because a no-hitter is a full game. No one on either side of this debate is saying that it isn't.

And as long as you don't feel it's unfair for a pitcher to pitch nine shutout innings but not get a shutout if it goes into the 10th, I also don't think your argument holds water. You're making arbitrary judgments instead of looking at things objectively. Game played. No hits allowed. Therefore, no-hitter.

I mean, what's less fair - a team getting credit for no-hitting the Dodgers over eight innings, or a team not getting credit for allowing one hit to the '27 Yankees over nine innings. You seem to be concerned with posterity, but throughout baseball history, it's always been this: You play the cards you're dealt.

2008-06-28 23:26:18
91.   tjdub
87 That's what I'm talkin' about! (see 74).

I would like it interpreted that way.

2008-06-28 23:28:06
92.   Eric Enders
I was just thinking that the identity of tonight's winning pitcher is rather interesting, since many of us probably remember watching/listening to Chad's 7-inning no-hitter in 2005. (Although Broxton was able to finish it for him.)
2008-06-28 23:28:28
93.   Alex41592
Does anybody think it's possible with Martin most likely not winning the fans vote for catcher that Billingsley could be selected as the Dodgers all star?
2008-06-28 23:29:55
94.   Gagne55
90 And the most important result of the game is the upticks in the W department for the Dodgers and the L department for the Angels.
2008-06-28 23:30:27
95.   Jon Weisman
83 - Where did I say I'm feeling bad for Weaver? I'm talking about the team, not Weaver. Obviously, I know Weaver didn't pitch a complete game.

You're making a subjective judgment about no-hitters - and that's fine. Anyone can decide for themselves the worth of an achievement. For that matter, A's fans can decide that tonight's Angels win doesn't count because it came against the lowly Dodgers.

But the record book should be objective. The record book counts a win against the Reds the same as a win against the Red Sox. If it's an official game, then everything in it should be official. You shouldn't get to say that this counts but that doesn't.

2008-06-28 23:30:45
96.   underdog
Stupid insomnia. Grr.

Did anyone see Lou Pinella's little "pep talk" to his pitcher Sean Gallagher today? Wow, that was a fast little "What the bleep are you doing?!" kind of one-sided chat.

--

84 On SportsCenter Tim Kurkjian said he thought Scioscia made the right call, fwiw. Obviously if they were tied, he would've left him in there, but he had to get something going and Weaver isn't exactly Babe Ruth at the plate. I think he made the right call.

Okay, one more time... night all!

2008-06-28 23:30:51
97.   Eric Stephen
The LA Dodgers have only had five shutout streaks longer than the current streak of 2:

4 games
Sept 1966 (starters were Osteen, Drysdale, Koufax, Moeller, all against Houston)

3 games
July 1991 (Ramon, Orel, Ojeda; these were the 3 games preceding El Presidente's perfecto)
Sept 1988 (Tudor, Orel's 4th straight SHO, Belcher; this streak started 2 games after Tom Browning's perfect game)
May 1983 (Welch, Fernando, Pena)
July 1960 (Drysdale, Craig, Williams, all against Philadelphia)

2008-06-28 23:31:04
98.   Alex41592
I suppose it's possible that Martin will be Clint Hurdle's selection for backup catcher. But, Martin would probably tell you Billingsley would be the better choice.
2008-06-28 23:31:09
99.   Jon Weisman
95 - Sorry - I got that backwards about "Angels win," but you know what I mean.
2008-06-28 23:34:21
100.   Eric Enders
93 I think there's zero chance of Billingsley making the All-Star team unless he wins each of his next three starts, and even then I'd say it's very unlikely. A pitcher's won-loss record still matters too much to the people doing the selecting. (Despite the fact that, to quote a great philosopher, "punishing a pitcher because of what his hitters failed to do sufficiently meets the definition of stupid.")

I suspect Martin's going whether he's elected or not.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-28 23:35:35
101.   Eric Stephen
93
I don't think Billingsley is likely to be selected as an All-Star, because his record will be no better than 9-7. If Martin's not on the team (I think he will be one of three catchers with McCann & Soto), Saito will make it.
2008-06-28 23:41:32
102.   tjdub
I want JP to be the Dodgers' All Star representative so he can fulfill the role for the NL that he should be filling for the Dodgers. He can pinch run in the 8th or something.
2008-06-28 23:43:55
103.   ChicagoDodger
90 as long as baseball gives wins and losses - the most important part of the game - for games that are played for less than nine innings on both sides, then everything else should rest on that criteria.

I don't see it that way. No one is taking a win or a loss (as you say the most important thing) away because it didn't go 9 full innings. They are saying that it simply is not a no-hitter if ithe pitcher does not pitch 9 full innings and have the game end after 9 innings.

You're making arbitrary judgments instead of looking at things objectively. Game played. No hits allowed. Therefore, no-hitter.

I'm not making arbitrary judgements. I'm simply looking at the rule. A pitcher has to record a minimum of 27 outs for it to be a no-hitter. More if the game go's longer then 9 innings. ANd mind you, that rule applies to every pitcher. Not just some.

For some of us, it's the 27 outs that separates the no-hitter from not being a no-hitter. When you consider 1/2 of all no-hitters taken onto the 9th have been broken up, it only magnifies the justification of this rule.

You seem to be concerned with posterity, but throughout baseball history, it's always been this: You play the cards you're dealt.

And the cards say a minimum of 27 outs. Every pitcher gets those same cards.

2008-06-28 23:45:21
104.   popup
After tonight Vin has broadcast just about everything that can happen on a baseball field. I don't think the Dodgers have been involved in any recent unassisted triple plays, but aside from that Vin has just about seen it all.

Stan from Tacoma

2008-06-28 23:47:09
105.   ChicagoDodger
104 He commented towards the end of the broadcast "I've seen alot of games in my life, never seen one like this one".
2008-06-28 23:50:26
106.   Eric Enders
And it should be noted that Vin was superb tonight, absolutely at the top of his game.
2008-06-28 23:50:36
107.   Chiron Brown
95 The rule is fair. You have to record 27 outs without allowing a hit to get credit for a no-hitter. Sometimes you even have to get more than 27 outs. You never get the no-hitter for less than 27 outs. Never.

I have no problem with this. Sometimes you lose the no-hitter because you give up a hit in the 9th. Sometimes you lose it because your team didn't score any runs. It's a team sport and sometimes personal stats are dependent on other people.

2008-06-28 23:53:30
108.   sporky
OT: Billingsley rocked, and the Dodgers won an interleague series :)
2008-06-28 23:53:44
109.   Eric Enders
103 , 107
1) As noted above, the rule doesn't say anything about 27 outs. In fact, if we're going to be sticklers about the rule, it clearly says that tonight's game counts.

2) But just for argument's sake, let's say they changed it and it said "a no-hitter is any official game with no hits." Five innings, eight innings, whatever. Would you guys then support that side "because that's the rule"?

2008-06-28 23:55:34
110.   Jon Weisman
Okay, I'm not going to repeat my same arguments over again. I'll just say I'm really surprised. Good night, folks, and go Dodgers.
2008-06-28 23:55:50
111.   popup
What makes baseball such a great game is that someone can go to the ballpark day in and day out for 60 years and still see something the next day or the next week that he has not seen before. Vinny has almost seen it all, but not even he has seen everything baseball has to offer.

Stan from Tacoma

2008-06-29 00:00:12
112.   ChicagoDodger
109

1) By this rule, a pitcher who throws fewer than nine no-hit innings...is not credited with a no-hitter

2) No, I would not supoort it.

2008-06-29 00:02:26
113.   ChicagoDodger
Tonight was a fun night. They have shutout the Angels 2 consecutive games.

Let's leave it at that.

Have a good night all!

2008-06-29 00:03:19
114.   Chiron Brown
109 2) No, I'd say it was a stupid rule.

1) 9 innings = 27 outs. The rule certainly implies the team throwing the no-hitter has to pitch 9 innings at least. I would support ammending the rule to clarify that.

2008-06-29 00:07:23
115.   68elcamino427
I was lucky enough to be at the game tonight.
We sat in the same seats for the 4+1 game.

Kemp just shakes people up when he is on the basepaths. Last night the third baseman made an ill advised throw trying to get Kemp at second base. Tonight, the pitcher hears Kemp coming up the basepath to first and the pitcher takes his eye off of the ball because Kemp is near and Kemp is safe at first. Then Kemp attempts to steal second and the catcher overthrows to center field and Kemp winds up on third base. That's plenty of hustle right there. DeWitt with the sac fly and Kemp scores easily.
What a fun game tonight. It's always more fun when you win.

2008-06-29 00:12:51
116.   PDH5204
Jon, the only problem that I truly have is simply that it was in 1991 that the rules changed. Prior to that, no hits through 9 was a no-hitter. Ray Schalk once caught 4 no hitters, however, with the rule change, well, the books aren't really the books since with the rule change they've "officially" taken away the one no-hitter [as it was "only" a no-hitter through 9]. Going back to the "punishing", a no-no through 9 isn't any more remarkable than a no hitter through 9 with a single in the 10th.

Eric is otherwise correct, as the game only is supposed to go 9, ie., the rule appears to concern only the shortened game.

2008-06-29 00:17:15
117.   ToyCannon
I'm more excited about Elbert throwing a no hitter for 3 innings and striking out 7 batters.
2008-06-29 00:38:14
118.   68elcamino427
117
The Dodgers still won tonight by scoring one run on no hits - right?
2008-06-29 00:38:31
119.   Chiron Brown
115 I couldn't disagree more. Kemp didn't shake anything up. Weaver never looked at him. Weaver didn't look up until he got to the ball. Then he looked at first base to find Kotchman. It was no different than a million other errors. The player is looking to where he is going to throw before he has the ball. And because of that Weaver overran the ball by three feet. Jason Phillips would have beaten it out, although I doubt he had the bat speed it get that much english on the ball. I don't mean to jump on you but this sort of thing really bugs me. It's the same mythical skill that gets Juan Pierre a starting job. I think it takes away from a players actual skills.
2008-06-29 00:44:21
120.   68elcamino427
119
It's ok, we do not have to agree. I know what I thought that I saw.
2008-06-29 00:49:31
121.   Eric Enders
I know you guys have been looking forward to this... Simers checks in with another column about how the young players suck. Stupid young players, pitching shutouts and all. Don't know how to respect their elders. I suspect Simers will spend the rest of the summer writing the same column only with the wording slightly rearranged.

And from Plaschke, we get this:
"The Dodgers did not bat in the ninth inning, thus they did not get 27 plate appearances, thus it is not an official no-hitter."

He's right, of course. The Dodgers didn't have 27 plate appearances. They had 29.

2008-06-29 00:55:44
122.   natepurcell
117

I agree. His strikeouts have been very low since coming back which tells me his stuff isn't up to where it was pre-surgery. Hopefully today's outing is indicative of him coming back strong in the second half. If he does, he definitely regains top prospect status in the org.

2008-06-29 01:12:36
123.   Zak
121 I saw that and I couldn't help thinking how much the Times' sports department has gone down the drain. How can anyone not catch that? Have the editors just given up or are their readers in such a minority now, that it's not worth proof-reading.
2008-06-29 01:14:12
124.   Dave60
I watch or listen to part of almost every game, even if only on Gameday. Tonight, I was completely out of touch, only to find that I missed what may be the game of the season. So it goes.

However, I had about the best possible excuse. I was watching Jason Schmidt's rehab start with the 51s in Fresno. A few scattered thoughts on the game and Schmidt:

It was my first time in Chukchansi Park. I loved it. Nice tight fit within the urban grid, and with modern amenities. It's a great place to watch a game.

It was an odd game. Three hit batters in the first two innings. The first Dodger run scoring on a balk. The first Fresno run taken off the board when the homeplate umpire ruled that a runner at first had been doubled up before the lead runner crossed the plate. A 9-6 force play. It was a fun ballgame, filled with curiosities.

I have absolutely no scouting skills, so take this with appropriate skepticism, but I thought Schmidt looked fairly well along in his rehab. He spotted the fastball moderately well. When he missed, he missed within the strike zone. Some of those misses were hit hard, and his defense came to his rescue, but he wasn't far off. His breaking ball didn't bite a couple of times, staying well high, but still not bad for a month-long layoff.

Oddly, Jason Johnson, who replaced Scmidt in the third, pitched similarly, missing in the zone with the fastball and out of the zone with the breaking pitch, although his breaking balls were more likely to miss low.

I've seen Jason Repko twice this season, and each time he played out of his head. Three-for-five tonight with a pair of doubles, each hit a solid line drive. Another ball barely foul down the third-base line that would have been a third double. A bit sloppy in center, but he still looked like someone who could help as a fourth outfielder. I'd swap him for Pierre tomorrow.

Good night for John Lindsay with two long homeruns. The first was probably 380 feet. It was the second that was really impressive, perhaps traveling 440 feet. It hit the top of the restroom in left-center, about 50 feet beyond the wall. It struck the skylight on top of the restroom, throwing years of dust in the air which was illuminated by the light coming up through the skylight. Sort of a mini-version of "The Natural".

Overall, a great night to be a Dodger fan. And then I learned what I had missed.

2008-06-29 01:20:39
125.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I just woke up.

Sometimes in life, you miss things like this. Oh well.

2008-06-29 02:13:01
126.   Sam DC
See I was just going to complain about missing half of this and a whole bunch of related things, but instead I will attempt to emulate our newly Stoic Bob.

He's like Silent Bob, but different.

2008-06-29 02:22:48
127.   Bob Timmermann
I am just happy to be leaving Cleveland. I fully expect to find Sandy Dennis sitting next to me on the flight.

Since everyone has weighed in on the no-hitter definition, I will decline comment for fear of getting someone angry.

2008-06-29 02:32:37
128.   Sam DC
Oh, sure don't weigh in. Man that steams me.
2008-06-29 02:45:13
129.   Bob Timmermann
It's a definition. Not a rule.

There you go.

2008-06-29 02:52:39
130.   Bob Timmermann
The bigger question is: why is Sam up so early? I have an excuse. I'm at the airport I have to be up the chickens.
2008-06-29 04:58:56
131.   Sam DC
Kids are an excuse for almost anything.
2008-06-29 05:27:22
132.   Johnny Nucleo
80 That's heartwarming. Brings back many fond memories of Welch and Scioscia in Dodger uniform.
2008-06-29 05:44:49
133.   Bob Timmermann
I am safely in the Volunteer State. I hope the Buckeye State is not in my future for a while.

We have issues we need to work out.

I think I will refuse to listen to the song "Hang on, Sloopy," which is the official rock song of Ohio, as a sign of protest.

That'll show 'em.

2008-06-29 06:30:59
134.   PDH5204
116 127 129 I stand corrected. According to Rule 4.10 a regulation game consists of 9 innings unless extended by a tie score or "shortened" by the home team not having to use all or part of its home half of the 9th. So it wasn't a regulation nine inning game but a "shortened" game.

Oh, and Bob, according to Rule 10.22(c)(2), one Akinori Iwamura was last year's American League fielding champion at 3B given that he had enough qualifying games and had the highest fielding average of all who qualified at 3B.

2008-06-29 06:46:34
135.   Ember Nickel
82 I wanna say 4.

Interesting debate: my gut instinct is to say it "should" be a no-hitter, but 81 for instance is rather persuasive. But as Haddix and Ernie Shore indicate, we can still recognize great/amusingly noteworthy achievements without "official" backing...What's the 4+1 game?

2008-06-29 06:47:44
136.   Howard Fox
ok, for what it is worth...my take on this whole official no-hitter v not-official-no-hitter issue...

if it was the Red Sox or the Yankees, ESPN would be all over it, and MLB would recognize it...that's just the way things are these days

2008-06-29 06:48:47
137.   Ember Nickel
135 Never mind, answered my question. Yay Google sidebar.
2008-06-29 07:29:15
138.   jtrichey
People getting on Kemp for not hustling reminds me of the same treatment Raul Mondesi received. I can't think of 2 guys in my Dodger life that hustled MORE than those 2 yet IMO because of some perceived attitude issues, they still get called out for being lazy. Both of them got an incredible amount of infield hits. Kemp would be hitting about .255 if not for his great hustle this year. Mondesi was the best I've ever seen at getting cheap doubles out of usual singles.

It makes me wonder on a mass level why these players generate such disdain.

2008-06-29 07:46:21
139.   KG16
134 - granted, I am a lawyer reading it, so I'm a bit of a stickler for construction but the way that I read that is:

regulation games include: full 9 inning games (home team loses); extra inning games (either team wins after the 10th inning or beyond); or 8.5 innings (need not bat in the bottom of the ninth, or uses only part of it's inning).

The way I read it, there are three ways for it to be a regulation game, the minimum requirement for a regulation game is that the game get through the top of the ninth.

2008-06-29 08:16:42
140.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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