In response to dzzrtRatt's last post in previous thread:

I thought LaRoche should have been the starter last year. That is two years that we have wasted "evaluating" him. To me, that means that we will never give him a real shot to win the job.

My quietly LAT'd last post to which 1 refers:

234 Blocking LaRoche is the one element that doesn't bug me. He's going to get his chances. Blake is a competent substitute for Kent on his days off, in fact he's Kent slump insurance. Blake is also going to take days off and LaRoche will get worked in. If the Dodgers fall out of contention, which remains a strong possibility, LaRoche will get even more opportunities. I think this year is kind of a write-off for LaRoche, hopefully one from which he'll learn a few things. I see him emerging out of ST 09 as the clear winner at 3B. His performance so far this year hasn't earned him the job, admittedly mostly because life is unfair. But this deal exerts a positive gravitational influence on the long-term 3B situation, and LaRoche will be the primary beneficiary.

Unless the GM trades him tonight.

My thought on Blake...

They needed to upgrade offense but at what position? Had to be left side of the infield. Torre the other did took somewhat of a skeptical view of what he expects out of Garciaparra saying "a routine grounder at 3rd and his calf exploded".

I bet DeWitt goes down until rosters expand. LaRoche sees some time at 3rd but also at SS giving Nomar some time off. LaRoche is also good off the bench with his ability to take lots of pitches. Then next year when Blake is gone it's back to LaRoche/DeWitt to battle for the starting job.

I was going to look for LaRoche's BABIP numbers, so thanks. It has seemed as though he's clobbered a lot of balls straight into gloves. A couple last night. Luck (good or bad) only evens out with sample size, and it doesn't look like his will increase much.

I'm reserving judgment until I see how the beard looks in Dodger blue.

I'm guessing it will look...Glorious.

To add to my previous comment..

If you don't like this deal what should Ned have done? We don't want to see less of Loney, Martin, Ethier, and Kemp. He can't move Jones or Pierre. If you want to upgrade the offense it had to be at 2B, SS, or 3B. Moving Kent would be difficult I think. So that leaves SS/3B. I'm all for giving LaRoche a shot but it should have been earlier in the season. With just two months left and desperate for offense I think he had to roll the dice. It's a decent gamble without giving up too much.

6 As someone who doesn't like the deal, nothing would have been a much better idea.

In the Broncos cafeteria today, I was sitting at a table full of football scouts and writers who were going on and on about what an idiot Ned is. I didn't say a peep.

I think something must be wrong with Meloan, so I don't hate this trade. It could have been much worse. Matt Kemp for a CC rental would have given me a heart attack.

6. With the best pitching in the NL if the Dodgers missed the playoffs I think everyone would have been all over Ned for not doing something. I'm not sure Blake is the answer but it's a shot and didn't cost much IMO.

If we wanted a James Longstreet look-alike, we should have just hired one as a mascot. Or a third-base coach. Going to these lengths is ridiculous.

Whether LaRoche or DeWitt gets sent down this afternoon will go a long way toward telling us what the Dodgers think of LaRoche. I think that (a) not everyone in the Dodger brass agrees on him, and (b) Torre, in particular, doesn't trust him. Perhaps they'll trade him during the offseason. Perhaps they'll sign some PVL to a one-year deal (Nomar?) and let him compete with LaRoche for next year's third-base job. Perhaps they'll send Andy to the island of Crete as a human sacrifice. At this point nothing would surprise me except LaRoche being flat-out handed a job.

When it's gotten to the point where Rob Neyer is making "Free Andy LaRoche!" posts on random internet message boards, well, that's when your treatment of the player has passed the point of ridiculousness.

According to one poster at BTF, Blake is likely to be a Type A free agent, so I guess that's one good thing about it, as long as the Dodgers do the smart thing and let him walk. (Then again, is there any team in baseball who would actually give up two first-round draft picks so they could sign Casey Friggin' Blake?)

I will say I'm a fan of Blake's .433 OBP over the past month.

Blake replaces Blake (and Andy).

Anybody want Manny for LaRoche et al.? Buster Olney:

> "They could make a deal with the Dodgers, who are overloaded with outfielders but have a manager in Joe Torre who is accustomed to dealing with star players with diva issues. The offer from L.A. would start with third baseman Andy LaRoche, conceivably."

Also, this gave me a chuckle:

Adrian Beltre of Seattle wasn't an option because the Dodgers are among the 10 teams listed in his limited no-trade clause, according a baseball source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Meloan has a chance to be a good reliever, but it's not him I'm worried about. It's Santana who's got "star" written all over him. If the trade had been A.J. Ellis and Meloan for Blake, I wouldn't like it then either, but it wouldn't be cringeworthy or a firing offense like it is now.

Memo to Ned: There are a lot of GMs who are much, much smarter than you are. Mark Shapiro is one of them. Try not to deal with those guys if you can help it. Thank you.

9. I agree. And I agree with ToyCannon in his post over at TBLA that Colletti is working as much to audition for his next job as he is to save his job here. What's best for the Dodgers long-term is not is top priority. He needs to look like Juan Pierre - a guy who tries really hard.

Manny for LaRoche? Dude, you gotta do that deal, as long as you move Pierre and/or Andruw Jones is part of the salary dump. The Red Sox aren't broke and they picked up a guy like Lowell just because they could pay his big contract especially when it looked like he was done a couple of seasons ago.

Beltre's agent is a dope.

(I know, I know, if I'm so smart, why aren't I as rich as Boras.)

But jeez, there is only one team out there whose fans have good memories of Beltre as a real masher, and that's the folks here in LA who shouted MVP MVP whenever he came to bat in the late summer of '04. Only one place where a trade for Beltre would garner good press. Putting LA on the no-trade list is cutting off nose to spite face.

I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

Tonight's lineup is tough to call. Outside shot that Pierre sits for Ethier or Blake plays LF with Andy at 3B.

I would love to have Manny Ramirez, but don't we already have enough of a logjam problem in the outfield?

LaRoche would love Fenway. He'd be like Nomar was there, bangin' balls off the monster all day.

I don't see why Theo Epstein would be willing to eat Pierre's or Jones's contracts. Maybe Pierre's. Boston can afford a $9M/yr 4th outfielder.

But this is Buster Olney we're talking about. Buster Olney might know less about baseball than Ned Colletti.

Jones and LaRoche for Ramirez would be a dream date.

16 Maybe J.D. can give Jones some of his secret career-revivin' sauce.

Jones and LaRoche for Manny? Done.

An OF of Manny-Kemp-Ethier/Pierre sounds like fun.

16. Even the Red Sox aren't going to pick up Jones. No one else is going to pay him $18 million next year and the $6ish million this year. You might get a taker on Pierre but only if you eat most of that salary and accept next to nothing in return.

14 Memo to Ned: There are a lot of GMs who are much, much smarter than you are. Mark Shapiro is one of them. Try not to deal with those guys if you can help it. Thank you.

18 I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

I like the juxtaposition of these two comments. If Ned were aware that most GMs were smarter than he is, he might take their demands as measures of value. So he needs to heed 14 before he can follow the logic of 18 . The only thing worse than a dumb boss is a dumb boss who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Reminds me of Larry Hagman's character in "The Eagle has Landed."

6. You're assuming he had to do anything, trade wise. The real ? is did this help the team to get better? Can you honestly say that it did or that there wasn't already an option at 3B, if the 'brain rust' was willing to be a little more patient to see if some of those hard hits of Andy's started to miss gloves rather than find them. As far as torre not having any confidence in LaRoche, there is the option of his boss telling him 'I don't care what you think, play him.', ala Jabba.

I love tuning into ESPN radio to try to get some baseball scores and instead getting an hour of drivel about Brett Favre. Arrrgghh. I stopped caring about his wishy washy retirement/unretirement about 5 minutes after it was first a story. Zzzzzzzzz.

I'm looking forward to the Beard coming.

As to Jon's question, I actually don't think the Dodgers have given up on LaRoche. (Which doesn't mean I'd be shocked if he was traded, either.) But I think they still favor his longterm outlook over DeWitt's. Just mho. The Manny trade idea is certainly intriguing but I don't think that's anything more than a figment of Olney's vivid imagination.

Boston is just looking for a sucker to take Ramirez off their hands. If they can't find one, they will almost certainly decline the team option of $20 million for 2009 and Ramirez will be a free agent this offseason anyway. He's not worth $20 mil anymore.

This is a guy who has more attitude in his little finger than Matt Kemp has in his whole body, is declining as a hitter and could potentially collapse, listens to MP3s in the outfield, gives back much of his hitting value with his historically awful defense, and would be lucky to get through two weeks without being punched in the face by Jeff Kent.

RE Meloan. He has some recoil in his delivery. This makes him more of an injury risk. It would have been nice if the dodgers pumped his stats as a reliever first. Then sell.

LA would have to pick up Manny's two option years for $40M total, so putting Pierre or Andruw in the deal is vital for LA. But why would Boston choose to take either of those contracts on, when they can just let Manny walk at the end of the year for free? To get LaRoche? That's a pretty hefty price to pay to get Andy.

I don't see Boston really rushing to trade Manny. He means more to them than he would to any other team, and he's still a pretty good hitter.

20-If Buster knows anything, it's what the Red Sox and Yankees are about to do. Seriously. He's BFF with Brian Cashman, and I bet he's tight with Theo Epstein as well.

The Sawx would never take Andruw Jones, but I could see them having interest in Juan Pierre. Ellsbury has been slumping, bad, so they might want some speed to spell him at the top of the line-up if he continues to slump into August and September. Pierre on the Red Sox actually kind of works because they already have players who can hit homeruns.

Pierre and LaRoche for Manny, and drinks are on me. Gosh, that would be a great day. They'd probably eat most of what he's owed this year, too, given his phantom injury and the fact that Manny's attitude has put him on clearance.

27

Jeff Kent gone after this year, he's going into movies.

Jeff will be staring in a new franchise vehicle updated for him by the Cohen Brothers; Grumpy Old Men, Barry Bonds is going to play the other role.

30

Andruw is being traded to the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, never can tell when you can use another blimp.

and would be lucky to get through two weeks without being punched in the face by Jeff Kent.

Like I said: Fun.

18 I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

That's not really true. They keep asking for LaRoche as part of a cast of thousands, including Kemp. Smart GM's mumble LaRoche's name as if they're offering him a ride to the mall; as if he's doing Ned a favor by lightening his load.

The good news is Blake is actually on pace to become a Type A free agent. Last year he was the first Type B player, just below Mora (a type A). He is having a better season than last year. If he continues his current pace he should be in the A category and even an injury shouldn't knock him out of the Type B area. They base the rankings on two years. The interesting thing is he would have qualified as a Type A last year if he played in the National League.

14 Melvin Mora 73.714 A
15 Casey Blake 72.571 B

33. Nonetheless, they're probably not mumbling Blake DeWitt's name. A smart Dodger GM would understand the importance of the difference.

Manny = LaRoche + JP would be nice. Then let Manny walk, fire Ned, and sign more reasonable FAs. But then who plays 3B next year? 2B?

36 - Manny's got a no-trade clause and option years left, so he won't allow himself to be traded somewhere that will just let him walk. We'd have Manny for the long haul.

37 Sweeet. So what you're saying is that LaRoche + X for Jack Wilson is what is really going to happen. I heard Jack is a gamer. Does he have a beard?

BoSox might put Manny on waivers: http://tinyurl.com/69mkkt

Way I look at it, when the Dodgers eventually are knocked out of the playoffs(or don't make it), McCourt is going to make a quick decision to sack Ned Coletti, and then install current front runner Logan White. The oddest thing is that football teams even in the largest markets such as Miami, New York, and Chicago allow themselves a year or two to get back to respectability, and yet baseball teams in similar large markets can't.

39 Wow, that sounds like rampart speculation.

"If we get one of the best young hitters in baseball such as Matt Holiday, then the Red Sox are going to put Manny on waivers, but only if!!!!!!"

http://ussmariner.com/

Washburn has just been traded to the Yanks.

honest question: what about moving Pierre to second? he's got enough speed to have good range, his arm would be neutralized, and the offensive numbers he gives wouldn't be terrible for a second baseman.

Would he have the skill set to play second?

Let's be realistic, if the Dodgers got Manny, the outfield would be Pierre, Jones, Rameriz, left to right (or gawd forbid, right to left).

BH, if you're out there I sent you an email.

I thought it was common practice for most of the players to be put on waivers so that GMs could gauge interest for possible trades.

43. Pierre happens to throw with his left arm.

>>>>Blake has bizarre career stolen-base numbers: 31 for 58.

See thats why he is considered a gamer. He doesn't let repeated failure alter him. Kind of like Ned with transactions.

43
You do know that Juan is LH and can never turn a double play because of that? There is a reason no one plays LH at 2nd base.

34
That is only relevant if two things happen.

1. We need to offer him arbitration and have him turn us down.

2. Some team feels the need to sign Blake and cost themselves a number one pick.

Does anyone see that scenario playing out?

I like Casey Blake but he's probably not a good match for this team other then as insurance and again, this kind of insurance shouldn't be so expensive.

I can live with this deal but I said that about Navarro and Jackson. At some point instead of living with a deal, I'd like to be impressed with a deal. Hopefully this will be the last trade Ned makes as a Dodger GM. This might be the first time McCourt is showing that money means something by giving them Santana for them paying Blake's salary for this year.

42 - according to espnews, they're still working on a deal

I don't see the big fuss about this deal.

If anything I see it as the club showing confidence in LaRoche, fact is they're in the middle of a playoff race and are getting no production out of 3B. They saw an oppurtinity to upgrade at 3B (in their minds) so they did becuase they need help offensively. It's not like Blake is gonna be a fixture on this team, I'm sure he won't be re-signed for next season. I see it as Andy we still have faith in you but we need help so next year you're our guy.

With that being said, Andy hasnt had a chance to prove himself and I'm sure he could do the same exact thing Casey does this year.

I don't see the big deal trading Santana, I see it as a sell high move, this is a guy that had a .688 OPS at 21 yrs old in class A. And as discussed before many people saw Santana's value mostly as a trading chip.

43 , 48 - details. yeah, totally forgot he's left handed.

If you're Ned and you're going to do the Blake deal, it doesn't make sense to stop there. I see him dealing LaRoche to the A's for Crosby.

Ned knows he has to make it to the playoffs to keep his job.

BRING BACK MARK BELLHORN.

The question is, if he makes it to the playoffs by punting the future, does McCourt fire him anyway?

52 - if Blake was signed beyond this year, I'd agree with you. But here, if they trade LaRoche, they are looking at having to fill three infield spots next year, instead of just two. Granted, I'd prefer to have an infield of Loney, DeWitt, Hu, and LaRoche over the next five to seven years.

I don't see McCourt approving the trades and then canning Ned if he makes the playoffs.

I actually think we could make a run in the playoffs if we could get there. I just don't see us getting there.

D'Backs are much better than they've been playing.

I think this will turn out to be one of Ned's better acquisitions (not that he had a high bar to clear or anything). Blake is definitely an offensive upgrade, we didn't give up Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, etc. and Blake is gone at the end of the year and we get compensation picks. Unless the confidence in LaRoche is completely gone (which it shouldn't be) then I see this as a win-win. Of course, we all have seen good-at-the-time deals turn sour, I'm looking at you Schmidt and Jones!

27

For being in decline, Manny has sure hit a lot better this year than last year. And regardless of whether he is decline or not, he still is a far, far better bat than anyone we have on this club.

If it's a matter of watching him play in LF over the next 2 years or Juan Pierre, I know who I am choosing.

Was there any discussion in the prior thread about what the corresponding 40-man roster move is going to be? Even if LaRoche or DeWitt is demoted, someone else has to be dumped from the 40-man to make room for Blake. Is this the day the music died for Mark Sweeney?

Let's be clear on one thing. Ned Colletti knows he has no future in LA if the Dodgers don't seize the chance to win the weak NL West now. So he has no compunction whatsoever about trading a Meloan, Santana or even LaRoche or McDonald if it means winning in 2008. It's up to McCourt to check these natural inclinations, but McCourt may be getting so impatient that he has no problem endorsing more young guys leaving town..
All the elements are there for Dodger pockets to be picked further by sharper GM's and virtually any other major league GM with a pulse meets the definition of "sharper".. Colletti loves "unsung" veterans, and he's shown an unswerving tendency to buy them at the very heighth of their value. Blake is putting up an 830 OPS this yr. against a career 789. He's also had this nasty tendency,like other guys in their decline phase to fade in the second half. Over the last 2 yrs his OPS has plunged 140 pts in the 2nd half.. But his superficial #'s look good enough for Colletti. Colletti also has no problem dealing younger players not high on the local media's radar screen (Denker, Jackson, Navarro, Guzman, Meloan, etc). Finally, he has a veteran Mgr. who likes vets, is getting impatient with LaRoche, and has the owner's ear.
All the elements for a perfect storm exist - beleagured GM who doesn't know how to evaluate talent properly, impatient owner, feckless local media when it comes to critiquing deals, and Mgr who loves his vets. You think more young talent is soon to be swept away for yet more overrated mediocre vets ? You bet your bippee..

59 Wasn't Meloan on the 40-man?

58 The Red Sox have decided Manny's no longer worth the trouble he brings, and that they need him off their team at any cost. I am willing to go along with their judgment on that -- if there's anyplace where a talented malcontent could thrive, it's Boston. Once even Boston gets tired of you, your only option is likely New York.

Red Sox management has essentially accused Manny (off the record) of throwing games. That's about as serious as it gets. I don't want him around. And the chances of Ned acquiring him are about the same as those of acquiring Roger Maris.

61 Yes.

61 Oh. Duh. My eagerness to get rid of Mark Sweeney is showing, isn't it?

56 The D'Backs may be much better than they've been playing, but aren't we too? There are many parallels between us and them, but I feel we have the edge because of our bullpen.

Hey LAT -- hitting the stadium with your pals this weekend.

I'd pass on some more talking points, but none of them would let you show off as a gracious guest. ;)

64 Who knows? He might be disabled again.

48 Blake has put up good enough numbers that someone will give him a multi-year contract even if it does cost them their 1st round pick.

59 - according to Dodgers.com, Blake is already on the 40 man roster.

Definitely makes the team better now. I think its a good trade if Santana doesnt turn into another Russ Martin, although it sounds like Logan White carries a veto pen these days, so I suspect that's not likely going to be the case...

I don't see the big deal trading Santana, I see it as a sell high move, this is a guy that had a .688 OPS at 21 yrs old in class A. And as discussed before many people saw Santana's value mostly as a trading chip. >>>
That was also the year they converted him into a Catcher.. Plus, young players do not have a perfectly straight line upward every year. Loney had a 638 OPS as a 20 yr old, and even struggled in AAA last yr (727). Yes, Santana is a tad old for high A, and yes, his 995 OPS this year is Cal League-fueled. But he also has a career .383 OBP and 841 OPS in the minors. His plate discipline looks quite similar to Martin's. This is a real good sign. He's still raw behind the plate now, but this has some real potential to come back to haunt. As might the departure of Meloan. These guys will be doing things in the majors long after Blake is gone from the Dodgers (which hopefully is next year)..

It seems like everyone is assuming LaRoche is a more valuable chip than Santana. Single A or not, catchers who can hit are rare.

The big joke trade of the weekend is the Pirates / Yanks deal. The Pirates got nothing.

This deal is why it was a bad idea to insist that fairness demanded DeWitt be permitted to play himself out of the 3B spot. They spent a month not learning what they had, and then acquired a marginal player to replace a good one, because a third player hadn't been hitting. But it's okay, because none of what was dealt were the crown jewels.

72 LaRoche still has a future with the Dodgers, barring a position change Santana didn't have much of a future with the Dodgers.

73

Blake has proven that he is better than a marginal player.

LaRoche has not.

74. That's been said a dozen times, but it makes the mistake of looking at the two players in isolation. Santana might have been a better trade chip later (since the Dodgers didn't need Blake). Or if he developed, Martin could have been a chip or a salary dump once he got expensive. Especially prospects in A-Ball, it's shortsighted to look at current holes on the 25-man roster.

Unless you're a GM with a 3-month time horizon.

Hey, Sam. Going tonight with them. I made the mistake of going to Capitol Punishment to see what was going on. Not only is it mostly shut down but the posts from a couple of weeks ago were brutal. My question, if I can work it in, is why not sign Barry. This seems like a no brainer. He can't mess up team chemestry or a post season run--none of these things matter at this point. But he would sell seats and bring the team some national coverage. Of course we all know why neither the Nats nor any other team will sign Barry cause Bud says not to.

74 Dodger backup catchers have combined to hit .220 with 1 home run over the last two seasons. And the importance of the role will only be increasing in the coming years as Martin ages. Not to mention which, Martin has shown little interest in staying with the Dodgers long-term, and Santana would be ready for a full-time major league job right around the time we'd lose Martin to free agency. Just in case.

I'm not sure why people keep insisting that we need to trade every good young catcher we get. There is a place for them. It's called backup catcher, and it's a reasonably important role, and one for which the Dodgers have consistently failed to find a major league-caliber player.

Blake has put up good enough numbers that someone will give him a multi-year contract even if it does cost them their 1st round pick.

I think his age (35), will keep that from happening.

76--Exactly.

75 This sort of nonsensical thinking is what needs to stop.

Your statement can be made of any young player who hasn't been given a full chance. If you're going to say it about LaRoche, you need to say it about Kershaw too, because it applies to him just as well. At various times it could also have been said of Broxton, Kemp, Loney. The possibilities are endless. It's a completely meaningless thing to say.

Pretty good question.

Here's mine, are they happy with the state of the organization after three years in DC, 2 years owning the team? They've bought in a good number of new prospects, but not many top drawer guys. There's no David Price or really any #1 starter in the entire system. My feeling is they've tried to rebuild and compete at the same time and haven't maximized their rebuilding by trading pieces, sucking for a while and getting top 5 draft picks, etc. From here, it seems like a lot of lost time.

The other fun story -- they are withholdi