Huzzah, Jon! Took the words out of mouth, in many regards here. I'm still seriously rooting for this team - now, and in the future. And will have a glass of orange juice to celebrate if they make the playoffs.

It's like a reverse Logan's Run: Life begins at 30.

Colletti 5, at the end of the season: "There... is... no... sanctuary."

That was worth waiting up for.

Joe Torre does not seem to have the same faith in youth as Duck Phillips.

McCourt 7: "Colletti...you are terminated."

Now I'm going to be thinking about Jenny Agutter all night.

That's why my issue with the Blake trade was blocking LaRoche. I'm iffy on Meloan and I frankly did not know much about Santanta, so losing them was not the big issue to me. As Jon alluded to, this team simply refuses to play their best players, because McCourt has created an atmosphere of fear.

Plus, he hired the wrong person to run this team based on public relation issues.

Very insightful as to the psychology of the front office. And perhaps something McCourt should consider in choosing Ned's successor: "Do you believe in giving young players a chance? How much of one?"

This schizophrenia is an old Dodger disease, though. Since I've been a fan, every manager and GM, especially Lasorda and Claire, took the stance that somehow LA was different, fans here just couldn't and wouldn't stand for rebuilding, and yet the "Dodger Way" emphasized superior development of young players. So they try to do both, but take shelter in the notion that the fans and the culture are forcing their hand.

It was the fans who sent LaRoche and DeWitt down and wanted Casey Blake, doncha know? Because they want a winner. But it isn't the fans who keep giving infinite chances to Jones and Sweeney to turn things around, and who pencils Kent into the middle of every lineup, regardless of how hot he is or isn't. Sure the fans like Pierre, but they also like Ethier. They liked DeWitt, who listens, and Kemp, who doesn't.

Maybe the way the Dodger culture works, they should let the fans vote for the starting lineup each day, like American Idol. If the lineup gets us to the World Series, McCourt will build a statue to us. If not, we get fired and some new fans come in.

7 - It's not about giving them a chance. Torre and Colletti give the young players chances. It's about extending the definition of what a chance is.

And the day the fans vote for the starting lineup will be a nightmare, if talkradio is any indication.

Wonderful post, especially this:

It centers on leadership that hides its eyes as the kids grab the car keys, yet doesn't bat an eye when Grandpa's shaky hand and squinty eyes take the wheel.

8 Right, of course. My point was, Colletti and Torre -- and most of their predecessors -- run the team with one eye on the metrics of success, and one eye on the Dodger mystique, which includes so many contradictory ideas and so much magical thinking that it's almost worthless as a guide. Part of the mystique is: You have to win every year. Another part is: You have to grow players from your own system. So they develop and promote young players, but have limited patience with them.

And while my American Idol notion was tongue in cheek, I have no doubt that in our lifetime, a team will try it.

Bill James spots a lemur:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/08/04/080804ta_talk_mcgrath

We should decide the starting lineup on craps. Andruw Jones starts when Ned throws snake eyes.

Yeah, Ned's luck sucks lately.

It's scary to think of what a half-decent GM or manager could have done with all this high-upside talent.

So can we play the Nats 162 games a year? I feel we would have a really good record if we did that.

13
Yeah, and the thing is our talent is so young that a quality GM can still do amazing things with this team.

14
In the last thread I said we should start a Harlem Globetrotters type of agreement with the Nats.

7 That whole idea that LA won't stand for rebuilding is a bunch of bologna anyways. The Lakers rebuilt a couple of times in recent decades. They had to rebuild after Magic and again after they traded Shaq.

After Magic, it was ugly for a bit but the fans embraced the young players when they started winning. The fan base really rooted for guys like Van Exel and Eddie Jones.

The last rebuilding process was a little different and more frustrating but it seems like the team is set to go on another roll for a few more years.

Seeing that the Lakers have won 3 titles and been in the finals 6 times since the last time the Dodgers won a playoff series, I'm thinking that the fans would have settled for a few rebuilding years a while back.

I will grant that it is much easier to rebuild an NBA team. It is even easier when you still have the best player in the league on your team and you fleece a dumb GM to pick up another great player.

17 Football teams rebuild all the time. If the New York Giants, and the New York Jets, and the Dallas Cowboys can rebuild and suffer losing seasons to fix itself, then so can the Dodgers. The problem with this season is that the D'Backs shown that they still have serious flaws. And the oddest thing is that it doesn't seem that anybody in Arizona are running around like chickens with their heads chopped off. The D'Backs are in a similar situation, only made a deal for Jon Rauch, and and yet they're a sea of stability compared to the Dodgers.

In general, do football and basketball teams lose as much fan support during rebuilding seasons as baseball teams do?

A rebuilding phase could be relatively easy to market with so much developing talent. If only Ned could decide which talent they'd keep...

18
D-Backs have smarter overall management, but we have a better minor league system. The D-Backs system is really feeling the effects of all their prospects being promoted to the bigs or being traded. We still have a solid system in place. If we are smart with our moves, we should be better than them for years to come.

19
Not in football, because it is too popular of a sport, but I believe basketball teams face at least equal or bigger problems when rebuilding.

The Sweeney/LaRoche roster move reminded me of a phrase from Ugly Betty. Out of curiosity, does "fabulously douchey" violate Rule 1?

23
lol, I've wondered if I could use that world myself.

Would you offer C.C. an extra $5 million a year if he grows a full on beard so people can point at him and say he's a gamer?

Can someone link to me any of these articles where CC suggests he wants to be a Dodger? I swear I read he was a Giants fan or at least an A's fan.

17 Right. It isn't the fans that are demanding the Dodger GM add players like Darryl Strawberry or Andruw Jones. I would think even a mildly sentient fan would be conditioned to to dread these big-salaried imports. But the GMs, whether it's Claire or Colletti, all explain their dumb moves in the same way: "The great Dodger fans deserve no less." So what I want to know is, what did we do, exactly, to deserve Andruw Jones, and is there some other way we can work it off?

24
word

27 The funny thing is that most of the guys on the current roster that people would pay to see are the younger Dodgers. Kemp, and Martin would move the numbers, but I don't know anybody who would pay to see Kent. Out of all Vets, the only one I can see people would pay to see is Nomar. As for pitchers, its Billingsley, Kershaw, and Kuroda that usually excites the crowd. If the current philosophy is to sign Free Agents partly because of how they affect ticket sales, then shouldn't try as hard as heck to trade for guys like Ichiro, A-Rod, or Manny? Guys who are certain to move the numbers. Picking up Andruw Jones because you're trying to drive up attendance is like the Knicks trading for Zach Randolph and Stephon Marbury and believing that people would actually pay to see them stink up the joint.

I would pay to see Saito.

I don't know - while I think the Chavez Ravine crowd loves Martin, I hear bigger cheers for Nomar, Pierre, Saito and Raffy than just about anyone. To my ears, the crowds think Nomar and Pierre can do no wrong.

To clarify - I think Russ is just as popular to the average crowd as those other guys. But I don't know if any other "kid" gets the same response as Nomar or Pierre. Although the first half crowds loved Dewitt.

29 Are you basing this on personal observation? Because, I don't think there is a starting pitcher on the roster that excites the average fan. And as far as everyday players, sure the fans at the games like Martin but they just as much for Pierre and Kent (and for that matter Angel Berroa) as they do Kemp, Loney and Ethier.

Really, its Nomar and then maybe Martin and then the rest. They save their boos for Jones. The only pitcher who gets an above average reaction is Saito.

Maybe I should just say I agree with Jon's post and leave it at that. Otherwise I think I may write something that won't be able to convey exactly how I feel and I will have to write a bunch of other comments to explain that and that won't advance this conversation at all.

On other things people have brought up.

1. There's Nomar and everyone else in terms of being popular at the games. No starting pitcher, not Chad or the Minotaur, is exciting the fan base that much.
2. When you make the playoffs 44 out of 48 seasons and the longest stretch of not making the NBA Finals is 9 years (the Celtics just went 21 and the Bulls are going to be more than 10), its hard for me to consider them "rebuilding" unless you are of the mind that for the Lakers, its only titles that count.
3. Its probably the wrong term to use in terms of fans not wanting to see a rebuilding club, it was the O'Malley philosophy (or so I read) that he always wanted a team that could contend just enough to keep fans coming to the ballpark. And let's face it, until the last few years (during the '90s and until 2006) the Dodgers lacked the talent in the system to totally rebuild anyway. So they went out and spent money. That started with the 1988 team and has continued until today.

We can't even get fans to vote for our players on the All-Star ballots. Russell Martin was not even top five in NL catchers. I don't think anyone is exciting the general Dodger fan.

Dodger fans are generally not very sophisticated. They like who they are told to like. They like whoever is doing well at the moment. They boo whoever isn't doing well.

They like movie stars. They like Torre. They like Nomar. They like Pierre. They like Lasorda. The rest come and go.

Some periodically capture the fans' fantasy...Saito, Martin, DeWitt...

But I don't see anyone right now that the fans "love". We loved Orel, we loved Wills, we loved Fernando, but I don't see anyone on the current team that evokes this deep feeling. At least not right now.

It could change, or it could be a product of how sports is, that players change teams and have no loyalty (at least that is how most fans see it).

When there is doubt, the veterans benefit - not because they are better, but because they are veterans

They're...beterans! As in, "The old guys are beteran the young ones."

It's as if Management made a quarter-hearted effort to let the kids play for the first part of the season, but made a firm and discernible decision that being in a Pennant Race™ now requires a different approach (i.e. strict reliance on beterans whenever possible). They just couldn't stomach the thought of putting players who haven't been there before out there over players who have, and it looks like they're gonna maximize the PT for the old players from here on out.

You can't judge fandom completely by who gets cheers. There are a lot of Dodger fans out here who don't get to games much. Besides, even Pierre said this morning that he's surprised the fans are suddenly cheering him, because they weren't before.

17 . I want Sedale Threatt and, who was that shooting guard who used to take lots of fallaways and miss most of them?

Can someone please publish this in the LA Times? Or tape it to Ned's desk?

Good golly that's some fine writing.

They're addicts, and they can't stay on the wagon. Veteran talent is the drug and it feels so good, even if they wake up emptier than before

It's not so much veteran talent as veteran presence, or just veteraness itself. The problem with our veterans is not that they're veterans: it's that they're not talented.

No, fandom certainly can't be judged entirely by who gets cheers. However, in terms of player popularity as relates to home game attendance, I would imagine that Dodger Management values at a higher level players who Chavez Ravine attendees cheer/buy merch for than others.

Also, I am shocked about the Pierre being surprised by cheering comment. I've been to at least 3/4 of the home games so far and haven't heard anything but hearty cheers for Juan. And trust me, I've been vocal at games about why he hasn't been one of the Dodgers best OF options.

I agree with above comments - this is great writing by Jon. It deserves some LA Times play and more.

The Dodgers will not improve until they have a baseball man in charge not a PR guy.

43 isn't Torre a baseball man?

I agree 100% on Colletti. But I'm not sure how Torre is getting roped in here. I understand that he's yanking young players, but that's more a function of the roster he was given. It's not his fault that Colletti went out and signed Andruw Jones and didn't trade Juan Pierre, leaving him with four outfielders. And it's not his fault that Colletti is desperately trying to put his stamp on a team that wants to be Logan White's team. When Torre has been given the chance to play young players without having to fear clubhouse unrest for lack of playing time, he has. And remember, this "hater" of young players started Derek Jeter every day in 1996 on a team filled with veterans. He won his first world series with a young Andy Pettitte. He stuck with a young Bernie Williams when Steinbrenner wanted to trade him. And recently, he stuck with a young Robinson Cano at second base and watched Joba Chamberlain become a star. He is not a man that is averse to letting the kids play.

45 and he sits Ethier in favor of Pierre and Jones...

17
The Laker front office would not agree with you. The fans left the team in droves in the early 90's and the waiting list for season tickets completely disappeared and didn't come back until Shaq showed up.

Well, they did finally bench Jones yesterday. Ethier, Kemp, and Pierre are the official regular outfield until one goes into a little slump. That's a little step forward in rewarding performance.

48

I'm not in town, so I am probably missing something, but sitting Jones for one day doesn't make it that Torre has seen the light.

I don't know that they love Nomar. I think they may just love hearing "Low Rider" when he comes to bat. Also, he's, you know, a hometown kid.

50-Or from my hometown, at least.

Wouldn't all the cheering for Pierre have more to do with him being a CF NOT named Jones? He was getting booed pretty heavily early on, it wasn't until people got fed up with Jones that he started to get cheers.

52 Pierre got cheers last year too. He has personality. He works hard. He gives it his all. Qualities that the average fan values.

One thing that is interesting here in NY is seeing how well the Yankees are playing without Torre. If the Yankees make the playoffs and go far, and the Dodgers stay around .500 and miss the playoffs, I wonder what that would do to Torre's luster? Right now, no one in NY--not the papers, not sports radio--misses Torre, or to be honest, even talks about him.

54
Even though Torre is the manager, the Dodgers use Lasorda a lot more in advertising and promos. I don't know if this is just a factor of giving Lasorda more to do or if Lasorda is more popular than Torre (he likely is), but I've seen more of Lasorda on TV this year than I have in many years.

It's like they canceled "Mad Men" and replaced it with 23 hours a day of "Who's The Boss?"

35--->

Russell Martin was not even top five in NL catchers. I don't think anyone is exciting the general Dodger fan.

Thats a good point.
Most Dodger fans are apathetic. It shows in things like gate attendance, time spent at the stadium (the whole arrive in the 3rd leave in the 7th is almost mutually exclusive to the Dodgers...they should have it trademarked.

But, the problem is that the McCourts never seem to get that. If the fans are apathetic (which I'd argue they are), why cant the McCourts be willing to go with the youth movement full board or embrace the different Sabr philosophy? If the fans dont care either way, then why not think outside the box?

Its amazing that the McCourts have seemed to more concerned with traditional mass media criticsm, than over general fan apathy.

The Dodgers don't know what they're doing. This is obvious to anyone who watches them. I still want a playoff team, but it's hard to believe in an organization that values Scott Proctor and can't wait for him to return. Just wait for the Jack Wilson trade. It's coming. And the team will get a little bit older, and a little bit worse.

the whole arrive in the 3rd leave in the 7th is almost mutually exclusive to the Dodgers

Uh-oh...

58
I'm in a really good mood and I intend to stay that way. So I'm staying out of that.

59
Why such a good mood...?

Why ask why?

Why ask, "Why ask why?"?

I'd say on any given night I'll take the top 25,000 Dodger fans over the top 25,000 fans in almost any other stadium, in terms of passion, die-hard-ness, etc.

It's just that we have beautiful weather, tons and tons of seats (at good prices), convenient parking, and a populace who is connected to the game through a far-reaching (and congested, hence the come late leave early) transit system.

We also have the game's most beautiful stadium, with 2-3 possible exceptions (IMO).

In other words, there are a ton of reasons to come to the Dodgers game if you're a casual fan.

But our 25k matches up with anyone else's.

"Most Dodger fans are apathetic. It shows in things like gate attendance, time spent at the stadium (the whole arrive in the 3rd leave in the 7th is almost mutually exclusive to the Dodgers...they should have it trademarked."

-- At every Dodger home game, there is a core of about 25,000 fans that watch every inning and countless others that do so on television - or wish that they could if not for traffic, etc. The existence of the ones that don't do this doesn't eliminate this.

"But, the problem is that the McCourts never seem to get that."

--If you believe the rumors, and it's up to you to believe, the McCourts are the first to complain that they're not getting enough out of the fan base.

"If the fans are apathetic (which I'd argue they are), why cant the McCourts be willing to go with the youth movement full board or embrace the different Sabr philosophy?"

-- Their first hire as GM was DePodesta. Fear of fan dissatisfaction with him was a large reason DePo was fired. They believed, for good reason, that Plaschke represented the common fan belief.

--Their second hire has gone with a youth movement that is only occasionally interrupted by vets. Prominent vets, to be sure, but the vets are outnumbered. The management of the youth movement has been dubious, but there's no denying it's a youth movement.

"If the fans dont care either way, then why not think outside the box? Its amazing that the McCourts have seemed to more concerned with traditional mass media criticsm, than over general fan apathy. "
They're very likely concerned with both, but believe they are connected.

Colletti appears to be on the hot seat, a year after he was McCourt's best hire. The new GM might reflect a new path. But that path might be further away from what you want. I'm not saying this will happen, but there are plenty of ways that the Dodgers could go more Old School.

Funny - I didn't see Harold's "25,000" before I posted.

0 "It centers on leadership that hides its eyes as the kids grab the car keys, yet doesn't bat an eye when Grandpa's shaky hand and squinty eyes take the wheel."

What a great phrase! It's an image that will endure the remainder of the season. Thanks.

The new GM might reflect a new path. But that path might be further away from what you want

Yes. Ned definitely deserves to be fired, but his replacement wouldn't necessarily be any better. In fact, setting aside any knowledge we might have about particular replacement candidates, the odds are that a replacement would be just as bad. Ned is pretty typical as far as GMs go.

Jon, when you say they should go for it in the last paragraph, what exactly do you mean by that? As in make a big trade? Can not do that without damaging the core group. Not sure if they have the players to go for it as constructed either. thanks....

Who are the top 5 defensive 3B over the past 3 years? Where does Casey Blake rank overall?

don't look now but Hu is posting a 1.004 OPS in Vegas.

I have not been posting too much lately, but has it been discussed how much the Dodgers stand to get in the next draft? If we let Blake, Lowe, and Furcal go, Logan White could have something like 8 picks in the first two rounds plus the supplemental.

I would love to see that offset with a deal for Sabbathia, but our lower system could be loaded in a single season.

Right now I am just trying to look at something good since we sent Andy LaRoche down to make room for Sweeney. I feel for the guy almost to the point that I wish they would deal him just to give the poor guy some playing time. He deserves a legitimate shot.

70
3 extra base hits last night alone...

Great writing Jon. So many quotes could come out of this to define Dodger management.

0 As far as I'm concerned, this is like being addicted to a glass of orange juice each day.

Is it freshly squeezed orange juice? =)

Great post. It's what I've been thinking except said a gazillion times better.

71

LaRoche needs to play every day, just as DeWitt needs to play every day. They aren't going to do that in LA as the team is presently constructed or managed.

Even if they got rid of Sweeney in favor of LaRoche, pinch hitting every couple of days is not going to enhance his career path.

Jon, that is pretty funny, we've obviously noticed the same thing. About a decade ago, I had a job which involved a lot of travel, which I combined with Baseball as often as I could, so I've been to just about every stadium (that existed 10 years ago), many of them multiple times, and I feel pretty confidant with my assessment and yours. Note that I didn't say "knowledge" because the big East Coast franchises have a larger core group of fans who know the game, or at least loudly express their knowledge punctually.

$20