I guess the gamble is two-fold:

1) whether or not the Dodgers can win the World Series; and

2) whether the Dodgers will re-sign their rentals, Manny and Casey.

1 Or if the Dodgers can convert the draft picks they'll get from departing Free Agents into serviceable big leaguers.

If you had asked me when Furcal got hurt if I thought the Dodgers could even make it to a high stakes table, I'd've said they didn't have what it takes. In that way, Coletti and the plumb crazy gang have impressed me. I'd have never imagined going after Manny. Now, I have to say I could see him staying. I'm not sure I'd pay the money sure to be asked, but if they can some how get out from under either Jones, or preferably Pierre, I can see it.

But I think they should keep Lowe and not Penny. (And I'm a Penny fan). The stakes seem higher to me because they will have to replace some of the free agents. And Schmidt and Pierre and Jones are locking up cash.

3

At this point I would re-sign Lowe and let Penny go, but I guess a lot of it depends on the severity of the injury to Penny. It is definitely cause for concern.

It's strange, watching Maddox in anything other than a Braves jersey. Even now. I'll enjoy watching him pitch, if he can show the shades of Mad Dog past.

As to the Dodgers trading stock. Well, yeah. And that's really one of the reasons you go get good prospects. At some point, you have to stop playing for the future and start playing for the now. The front office has made the decision that they were at the point this year. All in all, this is the team that most of us wanted: Kemp, Ethier, Martin, Loney, Billingsly, and Broxton. Kuo and Kershaw have made contributions. DeWitt is promising, as are DeJesus and Hu.

Hopefully it works out. But if not, there's still enough young talent in the organization to last a while. And there's also enough that the Dodgers can make some smart moves in the off season to supplement what they have.

I guess my main issue is the Dodgers had no reason to go all in this year, we could have easily been very competitive for the next few years with our start of 2008 team. We're not hopeless now by any means, but the future looks way more bleak than it did a few weeks ago.

I was thinking this the other day, the one thing that surprised me this year is how long they went with the cast of rag tags as SS and playing DeWitt when he was clearly showing that he had hit a wall.

One has to believe the asking price for some of those shortstops was astronomical because I would have thought they would have pulled the trigger even back in May. I know Nomar was always the wild card, never knowing if and when he would come back and that the staff liked DeWitt a lot and wanted to give him every chance to succeed.

And they also never really explored a deal for a 5th starter (until Maddux). I mean they had Loiaza, Kuo, Park, Stults, Kershaw, Jason Johnson all fill in when Kuroda and Penny went down and when they needed that 5th starter.

So it seems to me that the whole year was spent with a spending limit in place and they were going to make due with the players on hand or those picked up on the cheap.

At least that was how it was going until the Blake, Manny and Maddux deals.

5
...if he can show the shades of Mad Dog past

I was just thinking, this means Greg's parents grew up in a house with Mike & The Mad Dog.

I think the most important question vis-a-vis this discussion is whether the decision to trade the stock (prospects) for cash (expensive major leaguers on the cheap) was influenced by the fact that Colleti may have felt that he was running out of time to make a big play and even though it may not have been the best strategy for the team and its long-term health, he made the decision to take the chance that he would not have another chance if he did make the calls now.

What's so bleak about the future? Yeah, it sucks that LaRoche didn't get a fair shake in LA. But The Dodgers got Manny for him, and the inside track on resigning Manny.

Santana was never going to play for the big club. There were 5 guys on the depth chart that he'd have to pass.

I just don't see us being able to re-sign Manny without really hampering our chances at signing quality talent for other positions.

If Andruw can just promise to come back to his peak form next year...

Looking at next year.

Did anyone look at what the money picture is for next year.

Kent gone
Nomar ?

Andruw traded to an all you can eat buffet.

Find the money for Casey for sure, he's a gamer. Andruw is gone after next year and as far as I'm concerned, outright him after this season if he comes back up and does not beak the Mendoza line this year.

Manny is worth his rumored asking price of $20 Million a year, compared to the obscenity of $18 Million a year for Jones, but maybe 3 years.

So what's the table stakes for next year's poker game? Anyone?

11 Nononoonononononono. The Andruw Jones ship has sailed. Sailed so far that it's never reaching Dodgers land again.

11

Adruw needs to be given his walking papers after this year if he does nothing better than the .16x that he's been doing.

Enough with him stinking up the team.

Going to need some sort of sacrifice to Jobu to make the bats happy after he's gone.

Signing Blake would be a big mistake.

So we will probably do it.

13
Ned Colletti held up his hands
Saying "we'll meet all your demands"
As D4P would shout "your days are numbered"
And from Cleveland's Tribe
Casey Blake's now on our side
And Colletti, still has prospered.

Even the Yankees have a spending limit. Just curious, does anyone know where the luxury tax cutoff is? If the Dodgers absorbed $10 between Manny, Blake, and Maddux, would that have pushed them over?

I am not convinced yet that an owner spending roughly $120 Mil for on-field product is in huge dire straits financially. McCourt has shown that he will spend. However, if I was spending millions for Jones, Schmidt, Loaiza and others, I think I would be a little gun shy about adding much more payroll as well. This might be one of those everyday scenarios when you have to "put yourself in somebody else's shoes."

Jon I think Coletti is spending too much of his future capital by sending all these minor leaguers out in trades. I don't agonize over any one loss in particular, but if you look across the players left at Las Vegas, Jacksonville, Saginaw, and other locations, I am underwhelmed by the talent.

Re: 15

Hey, T-dub. Curiosity knocks at your comment. Do you think the other Blake (aka "D-dub") would be an adequate replacement?

Well said and clear-headed, as always, Jon. The only minor nit I'd pick is, from everything I'd read and heard about him, including from someone who knows him, Kyle Blair was almost completely adamant about wanting to go to college and was practically unsignable. One could argue that maybe even more money dangled in front of his nose would eventually have had him changing his tune, but I'm not sure there was ever much chance there. But either way, your overall point there is still valid -- being stingy on prospect signings and yet throwing money at washed up players never seems to display much common sense. Whether for Blair or another draftee, or another player, the money spent on Loiaza could have been much better spent elsewhere, even if I understood their desperation at the time.

10 It's true Santana would have Martin in front of him for years as blockage, but who are the other four guys in which you speak? He's a better prospect than AJ Ellis or Lucas May, to be sure, though he still has some to learn about catching.

19
I am not sure DeWitt will ever hit for enough power to stay at third.

But if there are no other alternatives, I would rather save money and play DeWitt at third instead of re-signing Blake.

10 When you knew you would have a big shopping list in the off season, adding anything to it makes things a lot more painful.

When the biggest obstacle on the depth chart is Lucas May, it's not hard to vault up it. Even if he never would have played, he could have become worth more than half of Casey Blake's salary. (I don't particularly think he was going to help either though).

20 - I'd say Ellis, May, Martin, Adrion, and whatever stiff the Dodgers get to be Martin's caddy next year.

Honestly, I just wasn't sold on Santana. He was 22 playing in high-A, after four years in the minors. Position change or not, that just does not strike me as impressive.

Resign Lowe. Resign Manny. Three year deal, up to $23 Mill. Resign Blake. One or two years. Promote Hu. No idea what to do about 2nd base. Donno about Penny. I'm thinkin', cut bait. I don't know why Pierre's still on the team.

Back to the off-topic from the previous thread: I spent the entire '80's trying to pretend I liked the music on KRock. I guess one of the less objectionable one-hits for me was Kate Bush "Running up that Hill". One of my favorite '80's hits was "Jenny Got a Gun", basically classic rock. Also most of Don Henley. That tells you I wasn't really an '80's guy. But, bringing up that old stuff, what about The Time? What was their hit? And George Clinton, "Why must I be like that? Why must I chase the cat? Nothin' but the dog in me?" Cindy Lauper.

21 - Since the odds are they can't re-sign both Blake and Furcal, nor should they sign them both, if DeWitt were better suited to play 2nd (to replace Kent), then who would play 3rd now that LaRoche is out of the picture and if they can't/don't re-sign Casey B? Just wondering aloud. Either way they're going to have a hole to fill. A lot hinges on how Furcal looks when he does come back and how expensive his demands are.

But they could have three holes on the infield next season which is kind of unprecedented. So I'd be stunned if they didn't re-sign one of Blake or Furcal at least.

17
does anyone know where the luxury tax cutoff is?

2008: $155m
2009: $162m
2010: $170m
2011: $178m

1st offense is 22.5% of salaries above each the threshold. If a team goes over the limit in successive years, it can jump to 30% or 40%.

For purposes of compiling these salaries, the money is averaged over the life of the contract, not necessarily when the money was actually paid.

For example, here is Juan Pierre's current contract:

2007: $7.5m
2008: $8m
2009: $10m
2010: $10m
2011: $8.5m

He's making $8m this year, but for purposes of computing the actual club payroll his 2008 figure is $8.8m (the average annual value).

Keep in mind also that the allowances mentioned yesterday ($89 per day on the road and travel days, etc) are also included in determining the "actual club payroll" for luxury tax purposes.

23 - You may be right about Santana ultimately, but you could also argue the same re: May, that his stock has fallen and where he is now relative to age isn't advanced enough, etc. Whatever Santana's flaws his swing and potential as a hitter are still more exciting than the other guys you mention outside of Russell.

AJ Ellis strikes me as a guy who deserves a shot as a solid backup, though, from what I've heard/seen.

If Manny turned down 2 years 20mil, why do we keep thinking this will be the asking price. Aren't we looking at more of a 3/80 or 4/100...I think someone will pay that.

I would like to see Dewitt take over at 2nd. Are there any other options in FA for 3b other than Casey?

25
I think we will re-sign Blake. I don't see Ned letting DeWitt, Hu, and DeJesus all come up at once.

22 - fair point about the anticipated hole. I'm leaning towards LaRoche being an acceptable cost to have Manny (it's not like we're talking Ruth with the Braves or Mays with the Mets), but reasonable minds can disagree.

The Astros claimed the Giants' Jose Castillo and he's all theirs, apparently. Huh. Okay.

Also, I think if the lineup continues the way it does, and if we re-sign Manny, Pierre will be begging for a trade

Two words: Joe Crede.

Nice logical post Jon. I like the stock market analogy. What seems to be on the back burner right now is that Torre's long leash early in the year with Pierre and AJones is probably the difference right now in the Dodgers being one game out and one game ahead (or something close to that).
vr, Xei

Players under control or contract for 2009

25-man roster (11)

Kuroda
Billingsley
Kershaw
Kuo
Troncoso
Broxton
Martin
Loney
Ethier
Kemp
Pierre

DL (8)
Schmidt
Brazoban
Proctor
Wade
Abreu
Jones
Young

Out of Options in Spring 2009 (2)
Miller
Repko

Free Agents (16)

Lowe
Penny (team option)
Maddux
Park
Johnson
Sturtze
Beimel
Ardoin
Bennett
Kent
Furcal
Garciaparra
Blake
Ozuna
Berroa
Ramirez

35
Brazoban is also out of options next year.

29 - Yah, true, though again if they do bring Raffy back I could possibly see DeWitt at 3rd and Hu or DeJesus at 2nd. Or something along those lines. And of course, that's assuming NedCo is back for the off-season, too. Who knows.

Other free agent 3rd basemen (from MLBTR, with my rankings 1-5 * in front of them):

Rich Aurilia (37) *
Casey Blake (35) *
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for '09 *
Chipper Jones (37) - $8-11MM vesting option for '09 but I assume he's staying in Atl
Dallas McPherson (27) **1/2 an intriguing possibility

35 - wow, 16 free agents? geez.

The only name on that list that I really want to see back is Ramirez.

How much longer is Schmidt under contract for?

Oops, forgot the stars get confused when posting here. Let's try again:

Other free agent 3rd basemen (from MLBTR, with my rankings 1-5 +'s in front of them):

Rich Aurilia (37) +
Casey Blake (35) +++
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout +++ but too expensive
Joe Crede (31) ++
Nomar Garciaparra (35) ++
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for '09 +
Chipper Jones (37) - $8-11MM vesting option for '09 ++++ but I assume he's staying in Atl
Dallas McPherson (27) ++1/2 an intriguing possibility

Why am I getting NY Jets and Brett Favre ads?

I just hope the Dodgers don't do something reckless like sign Durham to man 2B next year.

31 Ha, man it's crazyville in Houston and Mr. Wade is the mayor.

Until their elimantion # is 0 they'll keep throwing stuff against the board and see's if it sticks.

Free agent 2nd basemen are an even sorrier lot, imho:

Second basemen
Jamey Carroll (35) - $2.5MM club option for '09 with a $0.15MM buyout
Ray Durham (37)
Mark Ellis (32)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Aaron Miles (32)
Nick Punto (31)

Hudson's the only one worth anything, plus Ellis, but he will probably be back in Oakland or overpaid for what he is.

One thing about the Dodgers spending stock instead of cash.. they have been better at spending stock by far. I will be the first one to say that Colletti has wasted cash and not used it wisely, but as far as stock is concerned, he has traded wisely. He has made the 2008 team exciting and we definitely look like contenders. As long as he didn't give up too much for Maddux, and all indications are he didn't, I think he has made some excellent trades. Blake has helped us lots and the Manny trade was awesome. I don't care how LaRoche pans out, he was worth giving up for a real chance to win this year, especially if the Dodgers were down on his future health which they might have had good reason to be.

As for the Dodgers being competitive in future years with their start of 2008 team, that is a lot of wishful thinking, especially with Furcal and Kent leaving. And I don't like giving up Santana and Meloan, but if we are going to compete this year, we needed a bat like Blake. Again, it is way optimistic to assume that LaRoche would have given us the same bat, especially in hindsight.

So, the 2008 Dodgers are in with a chance. And they are exciting and fun to watch. Falling behind 2-0 is not the end of the game. As for the future, other than LaRoche, none of the stock we gave up was going to help us in 2009 or even beyond. Maybe Meloan would be a plus reliever, but one thing the Dodgers have done well is cultivate good relievers. And with Santana, all we did was sell high. Let's see if he can even hit in AA or AAA before we lament losing him.

38 Through 2009.

Actually its 17, I forgot Sweeney.

Did you know that despite the high number of free agents it comes out to only around $58M in payroll.

At the end of 2009, the Dodgers will shed another $34M and only have $31M total in committed payroll for 2010 and 2011.

I think we re-sign Manny 3 years for $60 million.

Re-sign Park and Blake. Maybe Nomar.

Pick up Penny's option. Sign some cruddy starter like Paul Byrd, because Ned won't count on Schmidt and McDonald.

44
What if we do not make the playoffs? Were all these trades worth it then?

The Astros. Leaders in the "What in the heck are they thinking." Division.

Lineups:

DODGERS
Pierre, CF
Kemp, RF
Kent, 2B
Ramirez, LF
Garciaparra, SS
Blake, 1B
Martin, 3B
Ardoin, C
Billingsley, P

ROCKIES
Quintanilla, 2B
Taveras, CF
Holliday, LF
Hawpe, RF
Atkins, 1B
Stewart, 3B
Tulowitzki, SS
Torrealba, C
Francis, P

43 I guarantee Ellis will be underpaid.

Of course, I might be the only one here who thinks he's a top five second baseman. I'd rather have him than Hudson right now.

50
He is easily the most loved Athletic, so you are not alone. He is also the best defensive second baseman in the league.

I can't believe an 80s Music Thoughts was conducted without me.

Billy Beane is the devil.

52
Feel free to give me your thoughts. I'd love to add to the list.

50 Actually I agree with you, I would rather have Ellis than Hudson, too. I do think he'll come back to the A's though; I know Beane loves him. As much as Kent, even old man Kent, can sometimes still mash with the best of the 2nd baseman, it will be nice to have a guy with great range there again. Whether Ellis or an in house guy like Hu or DeJesus. I do not think even Ned would go for Ray Durham, ex-Giant lineage or no, given RD's deserved rep as a poor fielder. (I will cry if I'm wrong.)

49
Alex41592 was dead on!

47 If you could make trades that come with a guarantee, everyone would be a genius. The decision has to give us a better chance of winning. The trades definitely have, in my opinion. You cannot ask Colletti to do more than that. It's unreasonable to say a trade is ok if we make the playoffs and not ok if we miss by a game. If Santana does not pan out, is the trade ok? If LaRoche does not pan out, is the trade ok? I don't think you can do what ifs? I think the trades make sense. If they had given up Kemp or Kershaw for Ramirez, then even if they make the playoffs, the trades do not make sense.

One more thing about LaRoche is that everyone assumes that he is the same player who put up great numbers in the minors two years ago (ignoring short stints in the minors last year and this year). He has had injuries, especially the back might be a serious one. He may have a good career, but there is also a decent chance that he will not be anything more than average. No one ever brings that up.

Starting tonight, the Dodgers will probably face 5 lefthanders in their last 12 games of August.

If he holds to this new pattern, he may use those games to play Pierre, give Loney a few days off and move Martin from catcher to 3B.

49 As odd as it may look, that's the line-up I expected tonight vs. Jeff Francis, except wasn't sure Martin would play (3rd). God forbid Pierre should ever bat anywhere but first, but whatever, he's done well vs Francis in the past.

54
What's the nature of the list?

28 Manny didn't turn down $40M for the next two years; he didn't want Boston to control each of the next two years with a $20M option for each year. If Boston decided he was worth the option each year, he wouldn't be an FA until 2011, at age 39. Certainly he wants a big contract, but I think the goal is more guaranteed money overall.

57 No one ever... ? A lot of people here have expressed that very sentiment about LaRoche actually. Some doubts about his ability to stay healthy with any consistency, and so on. Lots of us are rooting for ALR and wish he was still around but there has been plenty of doubt about his long term potential here lately.

57 That's not true, I think there is general acknowledgement that LaRoche may not equate those expectations.

The frustration was more with the lack of opportunity to see what he could do.

There is certainly a risk when you expose a prospect in the majors (or even as you advance him in the minors) because there is greater likelihood of failing than succeeding and you may lose more in terms of value.

I think we might be able to unload Andruw Jones back to the Braves and only pay most of his salary. His problems are clearly psychological to large degree, and being back home would help him. Atlanta may be willing to gamble a small amount of money on that. That is the only possibility I see of getting out from under the full $18M burden. Unless his contract is insured and his current 'rehab' assignment is being paid for by the insurance company. He might be 'injured' all of next year if that's the case.

57
I would rather have a better chance to win year after year than trying to save Ned's job this season.

We created more holes for the future to go for it this year, so not making the playoffs would be a big deal.

haven't we eliminated DeWitt from playing second because he is a lefty?

66
DeWitt throws with his right hand.

64 If that's true, they could have offered him arbitration (for a lot less than $18M) rather than let him go for nothing last year.

Insurance doesn't work like that and really those days are long gone, teams really can't afford the premiums and then there are issues of whether the player is really hurt or just kept off the active roster to try and collect insurance.

I would say its probable the Dodgers don't have any insurance on any of the players out on the DL. And I think that goes for most of baseball if not all of professional sports.

56 - Thanks. I expect Ethier and Loney to start tomorrow afternoon against the lefty De La Rosa. If Pierre is going to start you start him against a guy he's 13 for 27 lifetime. It was just a question of who would play first base for Loney tonight. Blake or Nomar.

I like the lineup with Blake at first and it keeps Berroa off the field. Ardoin is pretty good behind the plate.

60
A little over a year ago, my computer crashed with all my un-backed up music on it. I have finally gotten around to repopulating my iTunes, but I don't have a ton of CDs from the 1980s (I have all of U2, Springsteen, and some of the bigger stuff). I was just trying to brainstorm to see if I could come up with anymore bands/songs I want to add to my 1980s playlist.

66 thank you, I had no idea

62 , 63 My bad then. I have missed those. It feels like the talks are more weighted towards "can't believe we gave up on him" than anything. Sorry I missed the other side of it. For the record, and I have said this before, I liked Andy and hope he does really well in PIT.

mike - ca: what do you make of Jeff Kent calling out Vin scully, saying he does not know what he is talking about?? Dude been calling dodger game for 50+ years!!

SportsNation Steve Phillips: I think Kent's comments are ridiculous. He showed us the chip on his shoulder that he often plays with. Most everyone in the game acknowledges the fact that who hits behind you can have an impact on your batting, but this goes back to Kent feeling that Bonds didn't have an impact on him when he was in San Francisco, and he felt like he's never gotten the credit he's deserved. That may be true, but Manny Ramirez' presence has helped the Dodgers and directly impacted Kent as well. Plus, why would you ever insult Vin Scully. It's Un-American.

Jeff Kent is now a dirty commie.

70
I'll work on it and post it later. It won't be any kind of comprehensive list, just some stuff I like. And it will be mostly singles, not albums.

65 What holes are you talking about? Other than LaRoche, where are all the holes that we have created for the future. Listen, I'm not a Ned apologist. I'm insulted that you would insinutate that I care about saving Ned's job more than a better chance to win year after year. I want to win year after year too. I just don't see that we have done anything too dramatic that takes away our chance to win in future years. Again, what holes have we dug for ourselves other than 3B? And that's assuming that LaRoche will be way better than anything else we will put there to replace him in future years.

71 As Bob often reminds me, the only places you find players who throw lefthanded are on the mound, first base and the outfield.

73 Jeff Kent is now a dirty commie.

But he owns a pickup that he washes himself. What is more American than that?

74
Thanks. Singles are mostly what I'm looking for. For instance, even though I've heard these songs a bunch of times I forgot about them until today's brainstorm:

Cruel Summer - Bananarama
Electric Avenue - Eddy Grant
Birds Fly (A Whisper to a Scream) - Icicle Works

How is Dewitt doing in Vegas? Is he an option for 3B or 2B next year or is the general consensus that he needs more time in Vegas.

Could somebody please explain how the best team in baseball is batting Willy Aybar FIFTH? And has Gabe Gross and Eric Hinske in two of their three OF spots?

....is their pitching really that good?

80
The Rays don't have a lot of other options with Crawford and Longoria injured.

75 Starting pitching is one.

Even if McDonald wins a starting job next year, he's going to be on an innings count similar to what Kershaw's on this year. He won't be able to pitch a full season, which would make necessary a guy like Kuo or Park stepping up and getting a starting job, and then we'll have to replace bullpen spots.

Our outfield is pretty much set with Kemp, Ethier, and hopefully Manny. Our infield may be blown up with the only returning starter may be Loney. That's a lot of change for a team trying to contend year in and year out.

And I except Hu to win a starting job at either 2nd or SS, and either Furcal or Blake or Nomar to be resigned. Maybe Two of them, but not all three. So there should be at least one spot open to one of the DeWitt/DeJesus/DeHu's of the world.

78 Just going through my iPod, here are a few

Don't you want me - Human Touch
Tainted Love - Soft Cell
Do you really want to hurt me - Culture Club
I will always love you - The Cure(?)
Boys of Summer - Don Henley
Red Red Wine - UB40 (90s? - I like the Neil Diamond version better)
Summer of 69 - Bryan Adams
Still - Lionel Richie
Crazy for you - Madonna
With or without you - U2

80 Pitching and defense with a decent offense can take you a long way.

79 Seems like he's been doing decently in Vegas after a little slump (though he's 0 for his last 11), and I'm sure he absolutely will have a shot at 3rd or 2nd next year, depending on who is GM. It's clear Torre and the other guys liked him.

As Bob notes on the Griddle, the Mariners are 31 games out of first place. Wow, that's crazy. Even with the first and second picks in next year's draft, presumably, it will be interesting to see which team, the Nats or Seattle, are more likely to blow their top draft pick.

75
I was referring to Ned making these moves to save his job, not anything to do with you and your opinions of him.

We now have a hole at third, which is a big deal when we already had so many holes to fill. We will try hard to re-sign Manny and Blake I am guessing, but these are two older players that will probably decline offensively and defensively. It will cost us a lot of money to re-sign them, which makes it harder for us to spend money elsewhere.

82 I agree with pretty much everything you say here, but the trades did not create these problems (except 3B). We would have had these holes anyway. I think the bigger problem than the trades are the contracts we gave out last couple of years to Pierre, Jones and Schmidt. I do not disagree with that.

We do have a mess in the IF. But our starting pitching problems are not that bad. Most teams would love to have our SP problems. Billz and Kershaw will be very good. Kuroade will be good. Lowe will be resigned or replaced. Kuo/Park fighting for a 5th SP is not a bad thing. That does not even include Penny or McDonald. Sure there are questions, but I think 2009 SP is pretty good barring injuries.

86 I've already won my over/under bets for the year. That's how bad the Mariners/Padres are.

The Mariners and Nationals are on The Griddle's Death Watch.

87
Plus, the deal created so much good publicity that it may save Ned's job.

That is the worst aspect of the deal.

87 I don't think we will resign Blake. Manny we might, but we have to just to avoid playing Pierre. Still, I think the Manny signing depends on the Yankees. If they decide to outbid us, then he will go there. Personally, I don't see him going anywhere but Yankees, Mets or Dodgers.

We might be able to move Pierre in the offseason. I think some teams will want him for 3 years - 27 million. We may not get anything big in return, but we may be able to move that contract.

As for Colletti making moves to save his job, that could apply to any GM. The question is whether he did it at the expense of the Dodgers short-term and long-term health. I don't think he did. He could have given up Kemp, Loney, Ethier, Kershaw but stood pat. It's unfair to say all he was trying to do was save his job. And the fact that he was willing to trade LaRoche but not Ethier has to mean something. The Dodgers know more about LaRoche than anyone here and it's not a coincidence that he was pretty much the only player that the Dodgers were willing to give up for Manny.

Jon puts out a great post about how the Dodgers are going for it while at the same time trying to manage the payroll and we are talking about who is going to play for us next year? The present should be more interesting then the future when you are one game out with 30 games left.

Carlos Santana was not 5th in the depth chart. By the time he was traded he was easily number one on the prospect depth chart for catchers. KG keeps referencing his age with out taking into account that this is only his 2nd year of catching. Go back and take a look at the normal major league debut of catchers and you will see that Carlos Santana is on the right path of debuting at the age of 24. You would have a hard time arguing that he wasn't one of the top 5 Dodger prospects at the time we sold him. The fact that McCourt would sell a player like Santana instead of paying for Blake's salary does not bode well for our future. It takes chips away from making real trades. Now it is very possible that Cleveland didn't give us an option. Maybe the deal was you give us Santana and we will pay for Blake's salary but unless we get Santana the deal is off. I find that more palatable then us offering Santana to offset Blake's salary. So in a way Gammons "inside" info may be correct, but the context might be quite different. I'm really hoping that is the case because if we are just blatantly offering prospects for payroll relief, I would be really ticked off.

91 Again, I am not one of Ned's biggest fans, but there are a lot of bad options at GM floating out there. Ned has made tons of mistakes, but he has also made some good moves recently. I have a feeling if the Dodgers don't make the playoffs, he will be gone anyway, fairly or unfairly, for "family reasons" or not.

92
I do not think LaRoche fits the mold of a player Ned likes. That may have a lot to do with why he dealt him.

87 We always had a hole at 3rd. Some people here thought LaRoche was the answer, but whatever the reason the Dodgers didn't trust him with the job. Even if we kept LaRoche, we'd be hearing stories of wondering if LaRoche could keep the job, or LaRoche would have been traded in the off season to fill another hole at LH, or 2nd base, etc.

As for Ned saving his job... Both Kim Ng, and Logan White are looking for GM jobs. I doubt Frank McCourt would let two talented people like them just leave without trying to retain either one.

92
The Dodgers knew more about Navarro, Cody Ross, Jason Werth, Shane Victorino, Jaquimm Soria, and Wily Aybar before giving them away to what accounts for a Proctor. When you look at our bench and what we have compared to what have given away I fail to see how it is supposed to be reassuring that the "Dodgers" knew more about them then anyone.

78 Don't You Forget About Me - Simple Minds
Take on Me - A-Ha
Only a Lad - Oingo Boingo
All Night Long - Lionel Ritchie
867-5309 Jenny - Tommy Tutone
Uptown Girl - Billy Joel
Mexican Radio - Wall of Voodoo
Hold Me Now - The Thompson Twins
Just What I Needed, My Best Friends Girl - The Cars
The Power of Love - Huey Lewis and the News
White Wedding - Billy Idol
Hungry Like the Wolf - Duran Duran
Missing You - John Waite
Sledgehammer - Peter Gabriel

Sorry if this is a long list but the 80's rocked, I grew up on this music.

98 **Oops can't forget:
The Goonies are Good Enough for Me - Cyndi Lauper

At one point we had one of the deepest farm systems in baseball, yet our bench is horrible and we're giving the ball to Tanyon Sturtze. At least part of that is thanks to giving away talent that we'll never miss for next to nothing.

96 Why wouldn't he let them go? White already interviewed during last off-season for a GM job.

Is it time to explore the GM jobs available list?

1. Seattle.
2. NY Yankees
3. Baltimore
4. Toronto
5. Washington D.C.

And right now, probably the only for sure job opening is Seattle.

I am not including the Dodgers at this time.

I wish I was in Tijuana
Eating Barbecued Iguana.

Will have to settle for home in Del Rey
Watching Pierre slap away.

I never said the Dodgers are correct in their assessment of LaRoche. All I am saying is they acted based on what they know, and no matter what conclusions that you come to in hindsight, that is the basis on which most major league teams would operate.

Of all the position players you listed, isn't Aybar the only one who would play for us regularly? The others would either be on the bench or released, no? Maybe Werth (coz I really like him) but how can you blame the Dodgers for letting him go when they did considering the circumstances.

I would be very surprised if Kim Ng was made GM of another club. I think the Dodgers are her best chance.

103
"Second wife" issues aside, AL All-Star Navarro might not be such a bad backup catcher for us.

97 Meanwhile, LaRoche can't make much of the current opportunity given to him in Pittsburgh. Sure, the Pirates can always wait 'til next year, but they have their own 3rd base prospects like Neil Walker(okay, he's a catcher right now, but the 'Bucs have Doumit. Something has to give.)

Even if LaRoche is the 2nd coming of Ryan Ludwick, could the Dodgers wait until he's 30 for him to blossom?

When I see the list of "good" 80's songs it hurts my brain.
Husker Du
Jesus and the Mary Chain
Social Distortion
X
Blasters
Los Lobos
Peter Case
Dead Kennedy's
Wall of Voodoo

Those were my 80's. Freaks me out that it was 28 years ago. If you take 1980 and subtract 28 you get 1952 and I know I was not listening to any songs made in 1952 in 1980 but I'm still listening to songs made in 1965, 43 years ago.

105 Agreed. But it's not realistic to overlook those issues. He would not have settled for a bench role for the rest of time. The better argument for him is that we did not trade him for something good. We can blame Ned for that. But realistically, we had to trade him.

107
1965 was a mighty fine year in my opinion.

107 Oh yeah! I like your list, it took me years later to appreciate Husker Du, Social D, X, the Dead Kennedy's etc. but I love them now. I was only a wee lad in the 80's (0-9) so during that time radio hits and pop songs caught my ear more than good "underground" music. Although my uncle made me a huge Floyd fan back then by repeatedly playing Another Brick in the Wall.

There is also the Melvins and Misfits.

regfairfield, based on your music list on the last thread i can safely assume we would have had some good times in the 80's. And by good times i mean depressed of course.

93 - I will again admit to my own ignorance when it comes to the farm system. However (and this will be my last bit of discussion about the non-guitar playing Carlos Santana), I could understand him being sent back down to learn to be a catcher, but that's not the case. He could not break out of single-A as a 3B/1B/DH, and then they moved him to catcher. And looking at just a few catchers currently playing in the bigs, yes most of them debuted around the age of 24, but it also looks like most of them (or at least the few that I checked minor league numbers) did not turn pro until after a few years in college. Those that went pro before that did not languish in the low minors for four years. Most moved up pretty quickly. Santana's career path does not reflect that. Plus this was the first year that his numbers seem (to me anyway) to warrant much attention.

Ultimately, Santana was an expendable commodity, traded to fill a hole on the big club that could actually win it all this year. That's one of the things you do with prospects, trade them for players that can help the big club.

108 - "He would not have settled for a bench role for the rest of time."

Like Andre Ethier, his only option would be to do his best in the opportunities he had. A wildcat strike was not an option.

Both arguments against the Navarro trade work.

106 His current opportunity is not yet 3 weeks old.

I think we can give him at least 2009 before making any judgments.

I agree with TC that there were no signs that Andy LaRoche would produce like Casey Blake has done this year. The argument is though, after this season, the Dodgers seem further away from answering their third base question than they were in February 2008.

And with Josh Bell having to come back from injury, Pedro Baez having to go back to Rookie Ball, after DeWitt (who may be moving to 2B anyway) there is no one else on the horizon that is at least a major league caliber player at that position.

Which again, leaves the Dodgers to probably have to fill in that position with another stop gap solution.

Now, let's say the Dodgers go for this combination, sign Furcal to a 1 year deal with a vesting option or team option for another year. Then you let Hu or DeJesus battle it out for 2B, play DeWitt at 3B and sign Nomar as a spot starter, pinch-hitter and fan favorite. Of course, the oft-forgotten Abreu is also in the mix.

The outfield is tricky, I do think that they like Young as a pinch-hitter guy, so the real thing to watch is what happens with Manny, if the team decides to go for that, then they pretty much have to bite the bullet on both Pierre and Jones. What they do, remains to be seen.

106
I've always been on the Manny side of the trade and the Blake trade but that doesn't mean I don't think the Dodgers handled the 3rd base position correctly. It was astonishing how many ab were thrown away on DeWitt long after he stopped hitting. It is one thing to have some patience for a struggling youngster, it is another when you have the more advanced prospect ready to play and he sits on the bench.

On the other hand if he had played and done nothing then it is unlikely he would have fetched us Manny so maybe it worked out best.

Hey, I mentioned Husker Du in the previous thread, where were you then, huh, huh? ;-)

I should have said "Do you remember Husker Du?" just to see how many got that.

I still listen to Warehouse Songs and Stories, and Zen Arcade, to this day.

They, X and The Replacements got the most play for me when I was in high school.

112
I don't think Regfairfield was alive in the 80's.

115 Agree with all that.

Though I wonder if they are as high on Young as that, as I'd hoped. I can't imagine he's actually been hurt as bad as his long stint on the DL would make it seem, given he can play infield in a pinch as well as OF and is a better hitter right now than Sweeney (who isn't?), I have to wonder about the wisdom of keeping him out so long unless he really has been quite hurt, more so than I believe. Ah well, he'll be back in a few weeks.

But yeah, well said.

Okay, back to work with me.

112 I think I need to take up smoking just to complete the stereotype.

113 Santana is a completely different player now than he used to be. He was a non factor before this year. It's entirely possible it's a fluke, but it's also very possible that he figured something out.

118 I just look like I'm 17. You should see my drivers license from 15.

115
You forgot 19 year old Austin Gallagher in High A ball. At 6'5 he may not stay but he's playing 3rd now.

120
I don't agree. Until his Great Lakes dump he had always had a nice combination of power/patience and even last year for one month he was the best hitter in the Midwest league. He just put it together for a complete season but the skills had been showcased before.

118 Anytime I start wistfully reminiscing about the 80's, Richard Blade suddenly comes to mind, and any schmaltzy sentimentality is completely ruined.

121
What state did you drive in at the age of 15?

123 You're right, I was only thinking of last year.

125 I took the picture then.

119 I think the Dodgers are high enough on D. Young that he's the 4th Outfielder of the future for the Dodgers for the next two or three years. Its just that Torre and Ned prefer to have Sweeney for whatever reason may it be a sense of loyalty or respect for a guy who played in so many seasons.

Young doesn't have much of a future if the Dodgers don't get rid of both Andruw Jones, and Juan Pierre, but I expect both to be gone by Spring Training 2009.

Eyes Without a Face by Billy Idol is probably my favorite 80's song. What a great track.

Next, you guys will think Hootie and the Blowfish were an underrated Band.

113
Again I have no problem trading Carlos Santana to fill a void on the club. My only protest is if he was used to defray the cost of Blake's salary. If we could have just traded Meloan and paid for Blake's salary we should have done so. We will need these trading chits later and they shouldn't be sold.

And nice to see JAMC get some mentions. Anyone going to see My Bloody Valentine at Santa Monica Civic in October?

127
You do look young. Opieish even.

131 - ok, we're probably not as far apart from each other on this than one would think.

Watch this team sign Shawn Figgins next year for 3 years/$15 million.

No love for Joe Jackson?

Geraldine and John would be very disappointed.

135. Any relation to Chone Figgins?

Speaking of the Angels, might they be a bidder for Manny Ramirez?

I agree that New York is the most likely destination for Ramirez, since it's home for him. I see no reason whatsoever that the Dodgers will have any advantage in signing him or Blake.

135 Chone Figgins will be an arbitration eligible 5th year player for the Angels next year.

He just is coming off a 3 year, $10M contract, so it will be interesting to see what the Angels plan to do with him.

136 Or Thomas Dolby? Pat Benatar and of course Mr. Don't Do Me Like That, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

Actually, I do need to add some Joe Jackson to my Ipod.

135 - that'd just be one more reason to start rooting for the Angels.

137 With Vlad's extension coming, and having both Hunter and Matthews guaranteed for many more years, I think if there is anyone they sign its their new first baseman.

137 - the Angels could be players for Manny. Rivera and Anderson are gone. They'll have Matthews, Jr., Vlad, and Hunter in the outfield, Manny could DH and split time in left. they'd be pretty scary if they also resigned Texeria.

Additional 80s-related questions can be posed to Tommy Chong during his live wash post chat at noon pacific tomorrow.

http://tinyurl.com/5c833n

54- Cusp of the late seventies but I believe "Guacho" came out in 1981, "Babylon Sisters" and "Hey Nineteen" by Steely Dan
"Political World" by Bob Dylan off of "Oh Mercy"
"Bad Girl"-Donna Sumner

135 I'd like Juan Pierre a lot more if he could play every position and on base .370.

Rob -- Estrada's major league debut is now v the Phillies.

Eric Stephen, make sure to get this on your IPod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl0dqWhzU6k

142 I think the Angels may reach a spending limit at some point too. They have to resign K-Rod, they might want to see if Lackey will take another extension, Santana picked a good year to be good as he is arbitration eligible this year.

Kendrick, Saunders and Weaver will all be arbitration eligible at the end of 2009.

148 - Did you guys see the post on Yahoo about the Angels' AAA reliever wowing them in Beijing?

145 Juan Pierre does not take kindly of the implication that you do not consider him a good baseball player.

We can still make fun of his rapping though.

148 Angels picked the right time to ditch Casey Kotchman. The's just playing horrible in Atlanta right now.

148
Can you explain why we asked Kevin Prince to come in for 08 class only to red-shirt him?

Few randoms off the top....

Night and Day- Al B. Sure
Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before-Smiths
Never As Good As The First Time-Sade
Never Too Late- Lonnie Liston Smith
Nowhere Girl- B-Movie
That's All-Genesis
The Killing Moon-Echo and the Bunnymen
Ceremony-Joy Division
Under The Milkyway-The Church
Crushed-Cocteau Twins
New Frontier-Donald Fagen
Little Furry Things-Dinosaur Jr.
Genius of Love-Tom Tom Club
Strawberry Wine-My Bloody Valentine
The Breaks-Kurtis Blow

I'd like Juan Pierre a lot more if he could play every position and on base .370.

And, if you remember the chart I posted a week or so ago, the ONLY offensive difference between Figgins and Pierre is walks. At that point (though CF has played more since) the two had the same ABs, BA, H, 2b, 3b, HR. The only difference was roughly 50 points of OBP, all from walks. Either AL pitchers are worried about power that Figgins hasn't shown, or else Figgins manages to walk despite being challenged. Pierre, meanwhile, swings at and makes weak contact with a lot of pitches outside the strike zone.

IOW, Pierre COULD OBP .370 if he could learn some patience. Can't help you with the defensive aspect of the comparison, unfortunately.

Dang, I forgot about Sade.

Pierre COULD OBP .370 if he could learn some patience

And if he could overcome his fear of striking out.

I could fly if I had wings.

Here's that table again:

stat J.P C.F
Gms 089 081
ABs 319 320
Hts 089 089
2bs 009 011
3bs 002 001
HRs 000 000
BBs 018 047 <-- !!
AVG 279 278
OBP 324 374 <-- !!
SLG 320 319

Pierre could do a lot of things, like play Center Field. Supposedly.

136 ,139
I forgot about Joe Jackson! He's added to the list.

Thanks!

Trying not to repeat what's been said already, here are some 80s songs not to be missed:

Whitesnake - Is this Love
Wham! - Careless Whisper, Everything She Wants, Last Christmas
Tina Turner - The Best
Thompson Twins - Hold Me Now
The Jets - Make It Real, You've Got It All, Rocket 2 U
Taylor Dayne - Many singles, can't remember them all
Swing Out Sister - Breakout
Suzanne Vega - Luka
Survivor - Is This Love
Stephen Bishop - It Might Be You
Squeeze - Hourglass
Skid Row - I Remember You
Richard Marx - Hazard
Queensryche - Silent Lucidity
Poison - Every Rose has its Thorn, I Won't Forget You
Peter Gabriel - Big Time
Michelle Shocked - Anchorage
Lone Justice - Shelter
Jody Watley - Looking for a New Love, Don't You Want Me
INXS - Multiple singles
Human League - Human
Howard Jones - No One is to Blame
Heart - All I wanna do is make love to you, There's the girl
Gregory Abbott - shake you down
Glass Tiger - someday
Eddie Money - I wanna go back, Take me home tonight
Def Leppard - Hysteria
Dead or Alive - Brand New Lover
Concrete Blonde - Joey
Cinderella - Coming Home, Heartbreak Station, Don't know what you got til its gone
Cher - I found someone, we all sleep alone
Cathy Dennis - touch me, too many walls
Billy Idol - sweet sixteen

Wow, you really do like your rock ballads.

I mentioned Careless Whisper and I almost mentioned Last Christmas.

More remnants of the DT Picnic: I have a 7 5/8 Dodger cap in my car. It belongs to either Jacob Burch or BHsportsguy. I'll be happy to send it to you, but I'm not sure to whom it belongs.

Wow, you really do like your rock ballads

They made for great slow dances back in the day.

Which reminds me:

Bon Jovi - Never Say Goodbye (the last song I ever danced to with my first girlfriend, after she broke up with me in 7th grade)

Can't forget Big Country:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkr_2G3Jlko

NPUT

162
Thanks D4P.

I also just remembered "Voices Carry" by 'Til Tuesday.

169
The lead singer of TT (Aimee Mann) has some good solo stuff too.

162

Silent Lucidity was 1990.

171
Oops. Nice catch.

The 80s Queensryche albums are the ones that were actually good.

Concrete Blonde-Nice, just didn't think they were in the 80's but I guess they were.

152 - it's not like he's changed leagues or divisions or anything. Yeah, better throw him into the piranha pool.