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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Is the Clock Ticking Already?
2008-08-21 11:14
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Rockies at Dodgers, 12:10 p.m.
Today's Lineups
Colorado
Clint Barmes, SS
Seth Smith, CF
Matt Holliday, LF
Brad Hawpe, RF
Garrett Atkins, 1B
Ian Stewart, 3B
Chris Iannetta, C
Jeff Baker, 2B
Jorge de la Rosa, P
Los Angeles
Matt Kemp, CF
Andre Ethier, RF
Nomar Garciaparra, SS
Manny Ramirez, LF
Russell Martin, C
James Loney, 1B
Casey Blake, 3B
Angel Berroa, 2B
Derek Lowe, P
After today's game, the Dodgers have only 12 home games remaining in the 2008 regular season.









Comments (544)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-21 11:18:49
1.   scooplew
It's not a must-win game today, but it certainly is an important contest, particularly with four games upcoming in Philadelphia...I was wondering. If Kent doesn't come back next year, and I doubt that he will, perhaps he could work in the booth with Vin Scully in 2009.
2008-08-21 11:20:40
2.   silverwidow
"Cash strapped Dodgers make cheap trades." - Tracy Ringolsby on Foxsports.com

Why does this idiot have a vendetta against the Dodgers? First, he bashed them for not doing anything; now this.

2008-08-21 11:25:47
3.   JoeyP
Didnt Kent have a quote a couple years ago about how he didnt really like baseball?

I'd be shocked to see Kent in any baseball capacity after he retires.

2008-08-21 11:27:54
4.   Eric Stephen
Jorge de la Rosa got hammered by the Dodgers in his only career start against them (back in May), giving up 9 runs in 4 IP.

In his 4 career relief appearances against LA, he has given up 5 runs, 11 H, and 4 BB in only 6 IP.

Tee time is 12:10.

2008-08-21 11:28:37
5.   Tripon
4 That didn't work the last two games for the Dodgers.
2008-08-21 11:28:42
6.   Bluebleeder87
we have(what?) 6 games left against the snakes, the ball is in our court till the end if the Dodgers don't make it they have only them selfs to blame.
2008-08-21 11:31:42
7.   Harold M Johnson
I have tickets to the second to last home game of the year. I'm hoping (and afraid) it will all come down to that last SF series. The history of the Giants and Dodgers knocking each other out of the playoffs is one of the very best features of the rivalry.

I'll never forget the game in 1993 when Piazza hit those 2 home runs to sink the Giants' season. It was so sweet, even if I was sitting in literally the 2nd worst seat in the stadium.

2008-08-21 11:32:10
8.   MollyKnight
It just got louder at Wrigley during the first inning than I've ever heard it at Dodger stadium. The Cubs simply prevented the runner on third from scoring with two outs, but it was walk-off loud.

Maybe the echo is intense in here. My ears hurt, for serious.

2008-08-21 11:35:24
9.   underdog
Yipes, actor Jean Reno had a serious heart attack today. Hope he recovers.
2008-08-21 11:38:38
10.   Eric Stephen
9
Reno 911!

(I know, I'm going straight to Hell)

2008-08-21 11:45:57
11.   Eric Stephen
Derrek Lee just tied Vlad Guerrero for the major league lead in GIDP with his 24th, but the Cubs scored on that play.
2008-08-21 11:46:50
12.   Bob Timmermann
8
Copious amounts of alcohol can help with that.
2008-08-21 11:48:02
13.   Kevin Lewis
8

The 4+1 game was loud and full of crazy energy, but when Kent hit the homerun to tie it in game 3 against the Mets, my ears were ringing.

2008-08-21 11:48:17
14.   unlazy4sports
11 How many does Loney have?
2008-08-21 11:49:39
15.   Kevin Lewis
12

That reminds me of the guy who sat in front of us at game 3. He and his friends were averaging a large beer each inning. He leaves in the 5th, and by the 8th he has not returned. His friend shows us the text message "in dodger jail...shouldn't have hit the guy"

2008-08-21 11:50:56
16.   Eric Stephen
14
Loney is sitting on 20. He's tied for 4th in MLB with Adrian Gonzalez.
2008-08-21 11:51:46
17.   okdodge
15 - how'd he text from jail?
2008-08-21 11:53:21
18.   jtrichey
So, how many runs do we score in the 1st today, and will that be all that we score all day?
2008-08-21 11:54:39
19.   okdodge
18 - zero and no
2008-08-21 11:55:53
20.   Eric Stephen
Mark Reynolds took grounders at 2B for Arizona in pregame warmups yesterday. Perhaps when Upton comes back, he may shift to 2B, Tracy to 3B, and Dunn to 1B.
2008-08-21 11:56:34
21.   Bob Timmermann
Orange alert for Grady Sizemore in Cleveland. This is an orange alert.

It will likely be canceled soon because it's the eighth inning.

But I'll be away from my computer for a while. My proxy has the authority to cancel the alert.

2008-08-21 11:57:24
22.   arborial
17 Does a text count as your one call? And my guess is that "Dodger Jail" refers to some holding room they have for rowdy fans, not real jail.
2008-08-21 12:00:06
23.   trainwreck
There is talk of a Veronica Mars movie.
2008-08-21 12:03:15
24.   Eric Stephen
I almost forgot...Happy Maddux Eve, everyone!
2008-08-21 12:03:50
25.   D4P
Thou shalt discuss no other TV-show spinoff movie than the rumored Arrested Development movie.
2008-08-21 12:04:29
26.   Kevin Lewis
22

That is my guess. Some room where he is processed and booted, but keeps his personal property

2008-08-21 12:05:06
27.   Kevin Lewis
I watched the drummer/streaking episode of Freaks and Geeks last night. That was hilarious.
2008-08-21 12:06:47
28.   MollyKnight
Zambrano just launched one to Saturn. My ears are ringing.
2008-08-21 12:07:57
29.   Bluebleeder87
6

The first sentence was good but it went down hill after that.

2008-08-21 12:07:59
30.   dianagramr
28

He's out-homered Andruw for the season now ...

2008-08-21 12:08:19
31.   fanerman
28 Save your ears! Get earplugs!
2008-08-21 12:10:13
32.   D4P
30
He's out-homered Andruw and Juan for the season now ...
2008-08-21 12:11:18
33.   MollyKnight
13-I wasn't at either of those games. Nor was I there when Kirk Gibson had that little hit.
2008-08-21 12:11:59
34.   underdog
Good job by Manny actually cutting that one off, holding to a single.
2008-08-21 12:12:20
35.   dianagramr
I think they should have a pitcher's hitting version of home run derby, and invite Hampton, Sabathia and Zambrano (among others).
2008-08-21 12:13:32
36.   D4P
"Seth Smith" is a difficult name to say consecutively, at a fast rate.
2008-08-21 12:17:59
37.   underdog
Oops, Buckneritis strikes Loney.

That was probably Torre's fault, too.

2008-08-21 12:18:45
38.   Kevin Lewis
I would consider only one run here to be a success
2008-08-21 12:20:13
39.   underdog
Lowe often seems to struggle a bit in the first and then settle down. And for the most part he didn't pitch that badly. Time to revive the Dodger offense now.
2008-08-21 12:20:14
40.   sporky
These guys should be forced to drink a quart of prune juice for every error they make.
2008-08-21 12:25:20
41.   D4P
Nice to see consistent Veteran Presence™ in the #3 spot.
2008-08-21 12:28:56
42.   okdodge
19 - Looks like I'm half right so far....
2008-08-21 12:30:08
43.   Linkmeister
9 Speaking of untimely: Gene Upshaw has died suddenly of pancreatic cancer.
2008-08-21 12:33:14
44.   MollyKnight
You're right, Bob. People are drunk at Wrigley Field. And they're pointing, wildly.
2008-08-21 12:38:36
45.   D4P
Manny has hit 1 HR this year off of left-handed pitchers.

1.

2008-08-21 12:39:38
46.   JoeyP
Still wondering where Loney got the "Gold-Glove" defensive rep...
2008-08-21 12:42:26
47.   JoeyP
Casey Blake's K/BB with the Dodgers:

25/4

Thats staggering considering it seems like he's hit pretty well.

2008-08-21 12:42:32
48.   still bevens
How did Russ look when he got pwned by Jorge de la Rosa? What happened to his strike zone judgment?
2008-08-21 12:42:47
49.   scareduck
8 - Molly, I have a bag that I take to all ballgames. In it, I have (among other things) a pair of binoculars, a clipboard and various preprinted materials for scoring, a box containing pencils, erasers, and a wearable AM radio, and earplugs.
2008-08-21 12:43:11
50.   Gen3Blue
Wow, the Rockie's pitching is killing us so far this series, something I wouldn't have expected.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-21 12:44:04
51.   Paul Scott
Blake just looked at, from what Gameday tells me, 4 consecutive strikes - all were called balls and he walked. Is anyone watching the game? Was the strike calling as awful as Gaemday reported it?
2008-08-21 12:44:56
52.   regfairfield
47 I didn't realize he was hitting .272/.296/.500. I guess my .780ish OPS prediction is still good.
2008-08-21 12:46:17
53.   Gen3Blue
Ahh-the duece is wild. Seems that used to portend good things.
2008-08-21 12:48:55
54.   Paul Scott
Second half of the second inning, two on, two out, count was 2-2. It's what Vin lives for. If this had been the second game of a two game series, he might have had a stroke.
2008-08-21 12:56:56
55.   Gagne55
The Rockies don't have a very good team this year and yet have been beating the Dodgers like a drum.
2008-08-21 12:59:16
56.   still bevens
Torre-ball(tm) is rolling in its grave right now.
2008-08-21 12:59:41
57.   Jim Hitchcock
25 In the meantime check out `Run Ronnie Run'. I mean, it was the middle of the night when I watched it, but I found it pretty funny.
2008-08-21 13:00:20
58.   bhsportsguy
Dodgers hitless since Kent singled leading off the bottom of the 5th inning. Dodgers 0-23 in that span.
2008-08-21 13:00:42
59.   Alex41592
These are some terrible at bats so far today. Which is a big deal because the Dodgers have been pretty good lately in this department.
2008-08-21 13:00:53
60.   underdog
That strike 2 call to Ethier makes me wonder if the ump has a plane to catch.
2008-08-21 13:01:12
61.   MollyKnight
49-I do think it's time to invest in some earplugs. Though I'm probably going to go deaf anyway from all the concerts I've been to.

Still, I can say with a authority that Wrigley is the loudest regular season place I've seen a baseball game. My ears usually only hurt at Yankee playoff games. I mean, they hurt! Soto just threw someone out and now they hurt again!

2008-08-21 13:01:31
62.   CanuckDodger
46 -- So you don't see the large number of great plays that Loney makes, the acrobatic moves he makes to turn bad throws into outs?
2008-08-21 13:01:56
63.   LoneStar7
Well last night was my last game of the season as I'm back off to Dallas for school. It was a terrible night defensively, and the icing on the cake was James going down looking on the last pitch.

I felt like tearing off my loney jersey and tossing into center field, but as always I tell myself we can turn this around. I just hope I wasn't there for the beginning of the end.

I sort of felt the same way after that S.F. series, but we went on to sweep philly, so I guess its still possible that we have a successful road trip.

anyway, i'm not sure why I decided to vent that, maybe just because this is the last game I'll watch in L.A.

but hey another Billy Buckner, lets see if we can get something going!

2008-08-21 13:01:59
64.   scareduck
De La Rosa apparently is Spanish for Cy Young.
2008-08-21 13:02:47
65.   underdog
51 In my experience, GameDay's pitch locator is not always that accurate. From what I saw, a couple of pitches were pretty close, the other two were clearly balls.
2008-08-21 13:03:19
66.   JoeyP
Atkins has had a bad series in the field & at the plate.
2008-08-21 13:04:27
67.   JoeyP
62--No, and apparently the defensive metrics dont "see" them either.
2008-08-21 13:05:22
68.   underdog
57 I'm a huge Mr. Show fan so I watched that one, too, and parts of it were really funny, but it still feels like a sketch stretched out way too long. Of all the characters Bob and David played that wouldn't have been my first choice for a feature. But it still made me chuckle quite a few times.
2008-08-21 13:06:06
69.   scareduck
63 - "If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent Texas and live in Hell." -- Phil Sheridan.
2008-08-21 13:06:35
70.   sweepstakes
64-- Yeah, it seems our lineup has sprinkled Hall-of-Fame dust on D.L.R.
2008-08-21 13:07:11
71.   CanuckDodger
67 -- Then you aren't watching the games, obviously. And defensive metrics "see" absolutely nothing.
2008-08-21 13:10:44
72.   LoneStar7
69 haha thanks for that, I'm very excited for the 90 degree humidity and hot thunderstorms I'm returning to.

I better not repeat that in texas though, they are quite proud of their state to say the least lol.

2008-08-21 13:11:32
73.   D4P
Austin > Hell > Rest of Texas (with possible exception of San Antonio)
2008-08-21 13:11:33
74.   Gagne55
Jóvenes de CY is Spanish for Cy Young
2008-08-21 13:11:40
75.   Bluebleeder87
if anything I hope we're getting our bad stretch out of the way & by the time we play the snakes we will be running on all cylinders.
2008-08-21 13:11:48
76.   bhsportsguy
61 While you are trying to get away from the noise, here's a link to shop for ear plugs.

http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/silnatrubear.html

2008-08-21 13:13:33
77.   Daniel Zappala
The Dodgers are one run down, and two games back of Arizona. It's not time to panic yet.
2008-08-21 13:14:05
78.   Bob Hendley
52 - Yes, Blake is hitting with more power for us, but the lack of BBs really shows. LA .272/.296/.500 as compared to Clev .289/.365.465. Historically, he is not very good in day games hitting at around .224 as compared to .284 at night. (glare off the beard?)
2008-08-21 13:14:30
79.   sporky
I hope Lowe lasts 7 innings.
2008-08-21 13:14:36
80.   Dane Bramage
It all just feels like a spooky deja-vu back to last September...
2008-08-21 13:14:36
81.   regfairfield
71 Don't you think some method of measuring defense would recognize Loney as good if he was good.

He just doesn't catch the ball very much at this stage of his career.

2008-08-21 13:15:01
82.   Xeifrank
Are the Rockies in the midst of another 21 out of 22 streak? (Pls don't answer). Didn't they manhandle us towards the end of last year too?
vr, Xei
2008-08-21 13:15:10
83.   JoeyP
No panic, just trepidation that one of the worst starters in the major leagues just held the Dodgers scoreless for 3 innings.
2008-08-21 13:17:22
84.   fanerman
61 Maybe you'd be interested in these:
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx

They're supposed to reduce noise (about) equally across all frequencies, so you could wear them at a concert. I have them and they work pretty well. I'll probably be wearing them at Outside Lands this weekend.

2008-08-21 13:17:36
85.   Gagne55
82 Except that they didn't do nothing to stall the Arizona juggernaught but rather got pwn3d at home right before this series.
2008-08-21 13:17:52
86.   Alex41592
Manny hustle.
2008-08-21 13:17:55
87.   LoneStar7
nice a little manny hustle
2008-08-21 13:19:05
88.   Alex41592
Look at Manny!
2008-08-21 13:19:06
89.   MollyKnight
Votto just hit one on to the street, and someone threw it back!
2008-08-21 13:19:13
90.   Bluebleeder87
I can't wait to see that on the tube...
2008-08-21 13:19:16
91.   scareduck
71 - I've seen Loney make some real boneheaded plays, especially on attempted 3-6-x double plays. He did this at least once during one of the Angels series earlier; questioning whether Loney is an elite defender (I don't think he is from what I've seen, at least not yet) is perfectly legitimate.

72 - my wife is from Arkansas. Back when there was such a thing as the Southwest Conference in the NCAA, it consisted of Arkansas and Texas. Conference officiating was so notoriously bad and pro-Texas that Arkansas teams playing out-of-conference games (or bowl etc. games) would routinely call for the other conference's officials.

2008-08-21 13:19:34
92.   LoneStar7
run manny run
2008-08-21 13:19:48
93.   Eric Stephen
Power AND speed!
2008-08-21 13:20:12
94.   regfairfield
Nate Silver ranks Kemp, Russ, and Bills as top 50 franchise players.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/08/21/bp.pecota50/1.html

2008-08-21 13:20:28
95.   underdog
Sigh, c'mon Russ, gotta do better than that.
2008-08-21 13:21:10
96.   JoeyP
Manny must really want to win.
A rare stolen base.
2008-08-21 13:21:41
97.   LoneStar7
91 Dont Arkansas and A&M renew the old rivalry at the new cowboy stadium in Arlington in the coming years?
2008-08-21 13:21:43
98.   bhsportsguy
94 I think there was some similar list last year that maybe had Martin on it.
2008-08-21 13:22:26
99.   D4P
Coming into the game, Manny was slugging .398 vs. LH.
2008-08-21 13:23:03
100.   scareduck
82 - if the Rockies win today, it will be a six-game win streak, their first of the year. They have already had two eight-game losing streaks. Last year after game 128, they were 65-63; this year, they're 59-69. It would take a miracle for them to win the division, let alone the wild card.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-21 13:23:12
101.   LoneStar7
atta baby james
2008-08-21 13:23:15
102.   Alex41592
Loney cashes in Manny's speed!
2008-08-21 13:23:27
103.   regfairfield
98 He was on the honorable mention list. Lots of people (including myself) do these lists.
2008-08-21 13:23:37
104.   Bluebleeder87
I can picture Manny Ramirez dreds flying in the wind as he stole 2nd base.
2008-08-21 13:23:40
105.   scareduck
97 - I'd have to ask Helen.
2008-08-21 13:23:43
106.   underdog
Aaaand... we're dreadlocked at 1!

No longer hitless, no longer scoreless, no longer losing.

2008-08-21 13:24:02
107.   Harold M Johnson
Attaboy, Loney! I knew he was due.
2008-08-21 13:24:11
108.   sweepstakes
Lonestar breaks the hex.
2008-08-21 13:24:18
109.   D4P
For the sake of comparison, Pierre is slugging .396 vs. LH this season.
2008-08-21 13:24:32
110.   scareduck
104 - does a tag on a player's dreds count?
2008-08-21 13:24:53
111.   Eric Stephen
106
we're dreadlocked at 1

Excellent!

2008-08-21 13:24:55
112.   underdog
Something about seeing Manny sitting on the bench next to Maddux that makes me smile.
2008-08-21 13:24:59
113.   scareduck
106 - LOL!
2008-08-21 13:26:26
114.   MollyKnight
M. Ramirez stole second? No!
2008-08-21 13:26:46
115.   bhsportsguy
I am still wondering why ESPN.com sent Molly to cover the all important Cubs vs. Reds series and/or the even more compelling Cubs vs. Nationals series?
2008-08-21 13:28:13
116.   bhsportsguy
underdog needed to do something or else we were going to send him camping again.
2008-08-21 13:28:15
117.   trainwreck
94
I still think we see Kershaw on that list since it is supposed to be about upside.
2008-08-21 13:28:15
118.   Eric Stephen
115
Top Chef! The food/venue is the story, methinks.
2008-08-21 13:29:47
119.   trainwreck
Yeah, last Top Chef was in Chicago and the winner, Stephanie, is from Chicago.
2008-08-21 13:30:59
120.   bhsportsguy
117 Norm Chow threw out the first ball last night and posed with Torre for some pictures.

He got a nice round of applause, I even saw some one with an SC shirt clap.

2008-08-21 13:31:53
121.   trainwreck
120
How were his throwing skills?
2008-08-21 13:32:07
122.   underdog
116 Yep, I'm gonna have to load up my backpack again and head for the hills. Win this one, or else, Dodgers!
2008-08-21 13:33:57
123.   Alex41592
Ok, Lowe. This guy owns you. Pitch smart with nobody on.
2008-08-21 13:36:08
124.   Alex41592
That was a very impressive inning for Lowe.
2008-08-21 13:36:18
125.   underdog
Nice bit o' pitching there, D-Lowe.
2008-08-21 13:36:30
126.   CanuckDodger
81 -- Why would one just assume that there IS a system of defensive metrics that effectively determines the quality of a first baseman's defense? Why can't they all be bad? I wouldn't make a judgment either way, but for the case of Loney. His defense is raved about from everybody from scouts to opposing team managers from high school through five years of minor league play. He gets to the majors and his work at 1B is always getting oohs and awws from DT commenters, and his great plays routinely even get into the defensive highlight packages that I see on Canadian sports TV, when first basemen are usually absent from those packages. So what I am supposed to believe? Metrics, or the scouts' lying eyes, the managers' lying eyes, and my own lying eyes? Choosing "metrics" in that case sounds like an example of the saying, "When the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
2008-08-21 13:38:48
127.   fanerman
126 There are also plenty of comments about plays Loney misses or messes up on. It sounds like you're ignoring those.
2008-08-21 13:40:04
128.   bhsportsguy
121 I think he might have a better chance at completing his first pass on Sept. 1st than Kevin Craft.
2008-08-21 13:42:31
129.   oshea2002
Bison
2008-08-21 13:43:24
130.   underdog
Do the hustle - the Bison Hustle!
2008-08-21 13:43:44
131.   bhsportsguy
Not too many doubles on a grass field on ground balls in the middle of the diamond.
2008-08-21 13:43:49
132.   fracule
Oh, those crazy kids.
2008-08-21 13:43:51
133.   JoeyP
126--I know errors arent the best stat to use, but Loney's made 11 errors at 1st base. Thats terrible, mainly bc playing 1st base is the easiest position on the field.
2008-08-21 13:43:53
134.   D4P
Doubling on a groundball to centerfield is easier typed than done.
2008-08-21 13:44:31
135.   scareduck
126 - Choosing "metrics" in that case sounds like an example of the saying, "When the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."

127 is exactly right.

2008-08-21 13:44:45
136.   oshea2002
Wow - great ab by Andre there.
2008-08-21 13:44:46
137.   regfairfield
126 It's really hard to tell the difference between a guy who takes one step and dives (to create an amazing play) versus the guy who just takes three steps (for a routine one), especially if you aren't watching the guy day in, day out.

I'm not saying Loney will never be good, but if he was an elite defender, shouldn't he catch the ball more often?

2008-08-21 13:44:46
138.   ToyCannon
126
Most of us here do watch every game the Dodgers play and I won't speak for them but from what I've seen(subjectively) Loney is simply not that great a defensive 1st baseman. He makes quite a few excellent plays but he sprinkles in to many bad plays to be considered an elite defensive 1st baseman.

The scouts and so forth rave because they see the excellent plays, but over a whole season his consistency at this point is lacking. He certainly has the skills to be elite, but he simply isn't there yet.

2008-08-21 13:45:00
139.   Alex41592
Nice job waiting on the hanger by Andre.
2008-08-21 13:45:43
140.   underdog
Good job Ethier! Except for the being thrown out at 2nd part.

And we take the lead! My bags are still packed, but now they're further back in the bedroom.

2008-08-21 13:45:51
141.   scareduck
133 - from what I've seen of Loney's errors, they are not range issues but lapses of concentration.
2008-08-21 13:45:57
142.   D4P
Looks like a win for the Dodgers. George of the Rose really isn't a very good pitcher. In fact, he's pretty bad.
2008-08-21 13:46:10
143.   LoneStar7
127 I think its that people throw him under the buss after one mistake.

At the same time, Loney makes a lot of extremely difficult look effortless on a daily basis.

Its not that we can blame fans or DT commentors for not noticing his defense, James is laid back, relaxed, hes a natural. He's not flashy so his wonderful stretching catches and picks go unnoticed.

obviously the guy makes mistakes, he's still young, but his defense is undeniably good.

2008-08-21 13:48:15
144.   underdog
My take on Loney is similar to those just posted above. I think he has the potential to be a great fielder, maybe even a gold glover, but he has lapses of concentration and sometimes botches the routine play. He also can stretch out as well as anyone to save errant throws, and can be extremely smooth to make spectactular plays, has great reactions. In short, the number of errors need to come down, he needs to play more consistently there, but given he wasn't a full-time first baseman until the pros and has shown great agility, I see him getting better, too.
2008-08-21 13:48:33
145.   bhsportsguy
138 I would agree with that.

I mean Don Mattingly, the hitting coach, worked with Loney after he got here in July on how to agreesively go after the throw as opposed to waiting for it.

He has the tools, but he is not a great defender. He could be. So consider me in the middle of this debate.

Sounds like a great catch by the Bison.

2008-08-21 13:49:04
146.   Alex41592
Loney makes great plays on tough plays. But, makes careless mistakes on easy plays. But, if Loney is at first yesterday Martin only has one error. He has flashes of brilliance and he's only 24 years old.

Speaking of brillance, Matty Kemp. Great catch.

2008-08-21 13:50:21
147.   bhsportsguy
140 On Tuesday night, I saw Hawpe make a throw by the foul pole to almost nail Kemp who was cruising easily for what he thought was a stand up double (it was but Hawpe's throw could have made it close if it was on target.)
2008-08-21 13:50:35
148.   JoeyP
Atkins is now 0-15 his last 4 games.
2008-08-21 13:52:22
149.   Eric Stephen
Does anyone know where to find defensive game logs for 2008? I wanted to look up Loney's errors to see if they were throws or fielding, but I don't feel like going through 120 or so box scores.
2008-08-21 13:52:27
150.   Alex41592
Lowe is dealing and is filthy.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-21 13:52:55
151.   JoeyP
This is one of Lowe's best games of the year. Maybe he can go the complete game.
2008-08-21 13:53:09
152.   underdog
Lowe has really settled himself down nicely. Another run would still make me feel less uneasy.

--

I asked this earlier, but what's the prognosis for Wade? When's he supposed to be back?

2008-08-21 13:54:15
153.   JoeyP
I'll be shocked if De La Rose makes it out of the 6th inning without giving up a run.
2008-08-21 13:54:15
154.   LoneStar7
my opinion is obviously an outlier given my uncommon admiration for Loney

but I do agree hes not elite now, but I think he clearly has the skill set to be a gold glover

His defense would be more than adequate now if he could just hit for power though..

2008-08-21 13:54:20
155.   bhsportsguy
152 That said earlier this week that when he is eligible to come off the DL (Sunday) he should but he was also supposed to do a rehab too.
2008-08-21 13:55:13
156.   eusmus
151 97 pitches through six ...
2008-08-21 13:56:24
157.   bferb
Wonder what Ethier's stats would look like had he not been benched in favor of Pierre/Jones all those games
2008-08-21 13:56:37
158.   Alex41592
Was that a three pitch inning?
2008-08-21 13:57:12
159.   Gen3Blue
Lowe is great today. Why has Colorado's pitching been so good for three straight days? Well, Either and Loney have driven in runs--where are the Vets?

Darn,it seems like Martin has almost been a negative this month.

2008-08-21 13:57:28
160.   ToyCannon
This game is to close. We best score another run or it will be a long flight.
2008-08-21 13:57:49
161.   fanerman
158 Hmmm... yes.
2008-08-21 13:57:54
162.   scareduck
158 - yes. Wow.
2008-08-21 13:58:29
163.   still bevens
Russ has looked terrible this homestand aside from his 3 for 3 night.
2008-08-21 13:58:37
164.   JoeyP
Dodgers scoring 2 runs off De La Rosa may be the worst offensive performance of the season, considering the revamped lineup, day game at DS, quality (or lackthereof) of said pitcher.
2008-08-21 13:58:53
165.   Bluebleeder87
I'm gonna pad my self in the back for noticing Loney's glove issues since the begining BUT like everybody else I too see the pototes...
2008-08-21 14:00:58
166.   CanuckDodger
127,133,135,137,138,141 --

And that gets back to the old question, do errors really give us a good picture of a player's defensive play? Sophisticated baseball analysis, sabermetrics included, says no. Is is possible for a defender with more errors to be better than a defender with less errors? Yes.

When people say Loney makes too many errors, I have no problem with that. Nobody said he was perfect, and Gold Glovers aren't perfect. But no more than the discredited metric of "fielding percentage" do the more modern metrics recognize what LONEY does VERY WELL, and those are the plays that have to be seen with the human eye, that can't be accounted for in metrics because they can't be reduced to quantifiable data points.

2008-08-21 14:03:33
167.   regfairfield
166 It's not about errors, it's about balls that he never gets to in the first place.
2008-08-21 14:03:37
168.   underdog
That actually made me hungry. I could go for some french-fried pototes right about now. With salt and paprika. Mmmm!

Lowe's done. Looked a little tired after going over 100. Hats off to him.

2008-08-21 14:04:31
169.   fanerman
166 I never said the word "error."
2008-08-21 14:04:54
170.   ToyCannon
159
Kent and Pierre are on the bench.

When do Martin, Ethier, Loney, and Kemp become veterans? 200 games - 300 game - 400 games

2008-08-21 14:05:01
171.   regfairfield
And even if we just look at errors, those 11 plays Loney missed are incredibly costly, worth somewhere from 6-8 runs. +/- says that he doesn't make enough difficult plays to make up for those 11 easy ones he missed.
2008-08-21 14:05:04
172.   trainwreck
Good old Adam Melhuse. Wondered where he was.
2008-08-21 14:05:32
173.   Tripon
Ethier only got hot after the all-star break.

Why was Lowe pulled, and Kuo in? They're going to kill Kuo's arm.

2008-08-21 14:06:21
174.   Paul Scott
166 nonsense. Though a convenient nonsense if you want to hold on to "Loney is a great defender" regardless of anything said or calculated by anyone.
2008-08-21 14:06:43
175.   JoeyP
I like the Dodgers going to go Kuo here. Lowe's pitch count was getting up there.

Hopefully Kuo can work the 8th also.

2008-08-21 14:07:13
176.   ToyCannon
166
Count me in as never having used the word "error". You are trying to pigeon hole some of us into your conceived notion that we are judging Loney on the number of errors he's made.
JoeyP brought up the numbers of statistical errors, no one else has.
2008-08-21 14:08:24
177.   ToyCannon
We are going to blow this lead.
2008-08-21 14:08:53
178.   Gen3Blue
I missed most of the 3 pitch inning making a pit stop but I could deduce a few things.
Nomar was probably involved, and I think Martin is going through something at present.
2008-08-21 14:09:01
179.   Alex41592
Tough luck.
2008-08-21 14:09:10
180.   scareduck
166 - Sophisticated baseball analysis, sabermetrics included, says no.

The classic argument is that fielders with exceptional range get penalized on errors because often such errors are charged at the extreme end of the player's range. (This is also the case with fielding percentage.) The problem I have with this is simply that Loney makes unforced errors like throwing balls into center field, or doesn't get to routine grounders. You're trying to have it both ways: you want us to accept sabermetric arguments (errors shouldn't be used against a fielder) when they bolster your position, but walk away from them (advanced fielding metrics) when they don't.

2008-08-21 14:09:38
181.   underdog
Ethier shoulda had that one.
2008-08-21 14:10:28
182.   Alex41592
Nice job Kuo!
2008-08-21 14:10:55
183.   underdog
No harm done!
2008-08-21 14:11:23
184.   scareduck
177 - not this inning.
2008-08-21 14:11:53
185.   underdog
178 With a runner at first, Martin hit the ball hard but at the SS, turned into easy double play.
2008-08-21 14:12:27
186.   JoeyP
Why would anyone ever pinch hit Wily Taveras with the game on the line?
2008-08-21 14:12:43
187.   ToyCannon
"The triple world champions screamed, leapt into each other's arms and fell into the sand after Walsh powered down the last spike to become the first team to win two Olympic beach volleyball titles."

That is quite a feat given how long a history beach volleyball has in the Olympics.

2008-08-21 14:13:30
188.   bhsportsguy
166 I appreciate your ongoing support for Loney but for me, all I said was that he had room for improvement, that's it.

Is that a negative comment, I don't think so.

2008-08-21 14:14:31
189.   Eric Stephen
187
It was a pretty exciting match, even though it was straight sets.

US-Korea table tennis right after was great too.

2008-08-21 14:15:26
190.   thinkblue88
J-LO!!!
2008-08-21 14:15:26
191.   LoneStar7
he heard us
2008-08-21 14:15:45
192.   Alex41592
Loney has power! Loney POWER!
2008-08-21 14:15:54
193.   MC Safety
James "Eyes Without a Face" Loney.
2008-08-21 14:16:05
194.   underdog
I only wish Loney hit for more pow...

LONEY!!!

3-1 LA.

2008-08-21 14:16:11
195.   bhsportsguy
James turning the debate around and hits his 10th home run of the year.
2008-08-21 14:16:14
196.   Eric Stephen
OK, now let's start piling on Martin, so he can turn it around!!! :)
2008-08-21 14:16:21
197.   fanerman
Power.... YES.
2008-08-21 14:16:57
198.   JoeyP
Now if Loney hits 20 more over the course of a whole season, the Dodgers are in business.
2008-08-21 14:18:14
199.   Eric Stephen
That was a weird HR call from Steiner, as he was pretty unusually restrained, and I didn't think it would go out until I heard him say it was done.
2008-08-21 14:18:26
200.   GoBears
188. Actually, coming from you, bh, that DOES sound hugely negative. You're the go-to guy for "glass is half full" assessments.

I kid, but I agree, "has room for improvement" is hardly a condemnation.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-08-21 14:18:32
201.   trainwreck
Loneeeeey boooooooommmmb!
2008-08-21 14:20:12
202.   Gen3Blue
185 That isn't so bad. Sometimes they get nailed right at someone.

Darn, I wanted to see another Kuo bat toss.

2008-08-21 14:20:59
203.   scareduck
Kuo clearly needs to strike out less often if he wants to be a productive major league hitter.
2008-08-21 14:23:08
204.   scareduck
Dodgers' remaining strength of schedule is appreciably lighter than that of the Diamondbacks:

http://tinyurl.com/6azdx7

2008-08-21 14:23:21
205.   bferb
Loney's career high in HR will probably end up being last years
2008-08-21 14:24:01
206.   fanerman
205 Now THAT's a condemnation.
2008-08-21 14:25:35
207.   Eric Stephen
Also, with that HR by Loney, Tom Herr just uncorked a bottle of champagne.
2008-08-21 14:28:01
208.   Eric Stephen
207
Damn, I meant Paul Molitor.
2008-08-21 14:28:14
209.   bferb
206 - I know its negative but he is Mark Grace reincarnate
2008-08-21 14:30:05
210.   waterboy100
204 yeah but the snakes get 20 games at home vs 12 for the dodgers
2008-08-21 14:30:07
211.   Alex41592
Kuo sets down the heart of the lineup in the 8th.
2008-08-21 14:30:13
212.   underdog
I could think of worse careers to have than Mark Grace's.

Nice pick Nomar! One more inning to go.

2008-08-21 14:31:10
213.   gibsonhobbs88
I still can't rest easy with the current state of our bullpen. They have been giving up far too many leads lately. This would have been an outstanding homestand if last night would have turned out better. A 7-3 homestand is very good but since the Snakes are winning every game an 8-2 stand would have been better. If they find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again today, a 6-4 homestand is a big letdown.
2008-08-21 14:31:25
214.   scooplew
Who should we have pitch the 9th?
2008-08-21 14:32:05
215.   Icaros
We wish Loney was Mark Grace. Not even close, at this point.
2008-08-21 14:32:07
216.   GoBears
204. Yeah, but that's countervailed somewhat by the Home-Road splits.

Each opponent for each team should be weighted by their own H-R numbers. My guess is that basically evens things out.

2008-08-21 14:33:38
217.   GoBears
OH, and any minute schedule advantage will probably pale in comparison to the head-to-head series between the Dodgers and DBax.
2008-08-21 14:33:44
218.   Icaros
Well, he's closer than I thought, I guess.
2008-08-21 14:34:25
219.   Alex41592
Diamondbacks still have a road and home series with the Cardinals.

Dodgers have 3 in Washington and 4 in Pittsburgh. If we don't take advantage during those games we don't deserve the divison.

2008-08-21 14:34:52
220.   Fan since 59
Re: Loney's fielding. He has quick hands that enable him to make some nice stops on hard-hit balls and to dig errant throws out of the dirt. He has lapses of concentration that cause errors on easy plays. In other words, he's no Wes Parker. Steve Garvey was always considered a great defensive first baseman but that was mostly based on his ability to make great scoops on low throws. He had a terrible arm that was always costing the Dodgers, because he wouldn't make simple throws. Loney is only in his second season. He's got tremendous upside, even if he'll never be a 25 homer guy.
2008-08-21 14:35:27
221.   underdog
Stupid Holliday, you show off.
2008-08-21 14:36:13
222.   CanuckDodger
167 -- Balls Loney "never got to in the first place?" Tell me, do the defensive metrics take into account that Torre has a cow if Loney ranges too far to his right to try to get to balls that Kent can't get to? Really, just how much are metrics penalizing Loney for the fact that balls get between first and second base because of defensive positioning and the fact Kent has the range of a rose bush? If Loney has to cover any ground that Kent can't, he is probably leaving a lot of ground between him and first base uncovered. If he stays close to the line, then Kent's lack of range to his left leaves a hole the size of the Grand Canyon between first and second. So no matter what, Loney is screwed as far as the metrics are concerned -- because of Kent. Want to try an interesting exercise? See how first basemen's defensive ratings correlate with the ratings of the second basemen they play with.
2008-08-21 14:36:54
223.   ToyCannon
209
If we are lucky he is Grace reincarnate. Grace was a damn good ballplayer. Not sure why the focus is on how many home runs James hits, he has the 2nd most XBH on the team and only trails what some would call a "franchise player".
For his age only Fielder has a higher slug% for first baseman. He just went a head of Votto. If was 27 and still putting up a 440 slug% I could understand the concern but by the time he's 27, 480-500 will be his norm and people will wonder why he can't slug 550.
2008-08-21 14:37:09
224.   still bevens
So how many pitches did Nomar look at today in all? 6?
2008-08-21 14:37:09
225.   underdog
220 - And we know Loney's got a much better arm than Garvey's, a very good arm.

214 Broxton.

2008-08-21 14:37:19
226.   Alex41592
A throughly forgettable day for Nomar. Back to the #7 spot you shall go.
2008-08-21 14:38:42
227.   Gen3Blue
Being a Grace or Olerud is not a negative.
Give it time.
2008-08-21 14:39:17
228.   ToyCannon
Anyway, I'm much more concerned about the double play machine he has turned into then his power.
2008-08-21 14:39:39
229.   Alex41592
Oh good because what is the fun of a 1-2-3 ninth inning?
2008-08-21 14:39:47
230.   Fan since 59
Apparently, batting in front of Manny does nothing for Nomar. I wonder if T.J Simers noticed.
2008-08-21 14:39:56
231.   Gen3Blue
Forgive me for being nervous at this point.
2008-08-21 14:39:57
232.   trainwreck
Good start.
2008-08-21 14:40:02
233.   underdog
Sigh, not a good way to start, Brox.

I better finish packing my backpack and gear just in case.

2008-08-21 14:40:05
234.   ToyCannon
226
He's saving himself for the walk off in the 11th.
2008-08-21 14:40:16
235.   scareduck
Brox + Rox = crox.
2008-08-21 14:40:24
236.   Icaros
After reading the first line of 222 , I'm hoping we can just start calling him Balls Loney.
2008-08-21 14:41:15
237.   ryu
Oh geez, Broxton.
2008-08-21 14:41:35
238.   JoeyP
Good thing the Dodgers have a 2-run lead.
As long as Brox doesnt give up a homer, he should save this out fine.
2008-08-21 14:41:41
239.   Kevin Lewis
Just keep saying "we don't have Isringhausen"
2008-08-21 14:42:16
240.   underdog
That's better. Two more like that, please.
2008-08-21 14:42:39
241.   still bevens
Wau Broxton throwing 99, 99, 99, 98, 100 in that PA.
2008-08-21 14:42:45
242.   bhsportsguy
228 Although I think he has only hit into 2-3 in the last month and a half.
2008-08-21 14:43:53
243.   regfairfield
222 Four of the top 10 first basemen play on the same team as a top 10 second basemen.
2008-08-21 14:44:25
244.   Alex41592
Good thing he's got the velocity those are right out over the plate.
2008-08-21 14:44:30
245.   MollyKnight
Two strike outs and a wild pitch. What, is Rick Vaughn on the mound?
2008-08-21 14:44:33
246.   underdog
That's even better! One more like that, please.
2008-08-21 14:45:26
247.   underdog
98 + 99.
2008-08-21 14:45:42
248.   bhsportsguy
245 Are your ears still ringing?
2008-08-21 14:46:47
249.   still bevens
C'mon Brox drop a slider at Tulo's knees.
2008-08-21 14:46:55
250.   thinkblue88
yay!
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-08-21 14:47:09
251.   fanerman
243 Do the ranges that fielders cover (for metrics like +/-) overlap or come close to the ranges of other fielders?
2008-08-21 14:47:11
252.   Alex41592
YES! Brox blows them away!
2008-08-21 14:47:31
253.   still bevens
Eh nevermind. That'll do Brox. That'll do.
2008-08-21 14:47:39
254.   scareduck
Game over! 3-1 Dodgers, Final.
2008-08-21 14:47:41
255.   Kevin Lewis
mlb gameday had him at 101 a few times
2008-08-21 14:48:09
256.   underdog
Yesssss! Nicely recovered, Brox! That was some smoke.

And underdog doesn't have to head back to the mountains.

2008-08-21 14:48:22
257.   ToyCannon
Whew, nothing seems easy. Going to be a long 6 weeks, this is why I'm bald.
2008-08-21 14:48:42
258.   Bob Hendley
Nice homestand. We'll be with you Bums!
2008-08-21 14:49:07
259.   regfairfield
251 I think a +/- creates a players range by the balls that a person fielding that position has got to, so it can overlap. I think zone rating just divides the field into eight slices.
2008-08-21 14:49:11
260.   JoeyP
If Broxton can locate his fastball, he can get away with only throwing 98-99 fastballs. No one is going to hit those.
2008-08-21 14:50:09
261.   BlueCrew Bruin
204 I'm not sure how much of a good thing that is. It's probably just my perception but it always seems like the Dodgers play to the level of their competition.

Lose 2 of 3 to the Giants/Win 6 of 7 against the Phils and Brewers/Lose 2 of 3 to the Rox

Like I said though, probably just my perception.

2008-08-21 14:50:32
262.   wronghanded
255 I saw that, I also saw that Jimenez hit 100 a couple times yesterday. I wonder how many current major leaguers can bring triple-digit cheese?
2008-08-21 14:51:20
263.   GoBears
Anyone else hold their breath on that last pitch? For a 99MPH pitch, it sure seemed to take a long time to travel the 60'6".

Steiner: "On its way...."

wait
wait
wait
wait

"SWING AND A MISS STRIKE 3!"

Either he was early with "on its way," or it took him a while to process the swing-and-miss. Or Broxton's pitch took a circuitous route to Martin's mitt - like by way of Pasadena.

2008-08-21 14:51:39
264.   JoeyP
7-3 on the home stand is pretty good.
Now have to go at least 5-5 on the road trip to stay in the race.
2008-08-21 14:52:37
265.   CanuckDodger
243 -- And looking at the 10 worst second basemen, among whom I expect Kent to be, how do the first basemen they play with rate?
2008-08-21 14:54:33
266.   GoBears
"seems like the Dodgers play to the level of their competition"

If that's true, that would predict close games, no matter the opponent. But losing to bad teams and beating good ones means playing "beyond" the level of the opponent, as it were.

2008-08-21 14:54:36
267.   JoeyP
Dodgers are now 11-8 with Manny.
Dbax are 6-2 with Dunn.
2008-08-21 14:56:07
268.   Bob Timmermann
Either he was early with "on its way," or it took him a while to process the swing-and-miss. Or Broxton's pitch took a circuitous route to Martin's mitt - like by way of Pasadena.

Now that would be a curve ball for the ages.

2008-08-21 14:58:21
269.   regfairfield
265 Last year, three of the bottom five played on the same team. (Nomar/Kent, Uggla/Jacobs, Weeks/Fielder). Whether or not that's because of the second baseman I can't say because none of those guys are known for their mobility.
2008-08-21 14:59:22
270.   fanerman
265 Jeff Kent is indeed at the bottom (ranked 28th), but he isn't so bad moving to his left (towards Loney), at -1. Moving to his right is where he's bad, at -7.
2008-08-21 15:03:02
271.   regfairfield
From 2005-2007 the only first baseman and second baseman pair on the list is Weeks and Fielder.
2008-08-21 15:04:23
272.   fanerman
Anyway, if the ranges overlap, I'd think that being surrounded by great fielders ought to hurt a player's +/- more than being surrounded by lousy fielders. Great fielders might get to balls in other player's ranges.
2008-08-21 15:04:35
273.   CanuckDodger
269 -- And what do the metrics say about Conor Jackson? Scouts don't like him defensively, but I'm betting that playing with Orlando Hudson has helped Jackson's metrics.
2008-08-21 15:05:17
274.   GoBears
270. It seems to me that he's more successful to his left (I won't say "better") for 2 reasons.

1. His glove is on that side, and

2. He races the ball to the OF to his left. Gets a lot of grounders a few feet out on the grass, because he still has time to make the short throw to 1st. To his right, he often doesn't even take a first step, probably calculating (correctly) that even if he could chase it down, he'd never make that throw.
That's consistent with my observation that the good plays he DOES make to his right are on force-outs.

Basically, Kent exerts himself when he thinks it will matter and otherwise doesn't bother. Since he's a PVL, we'll call that "savvy." If he were 10-15 yrs younger, we'd go with "lazy."

2008-08-21 15:06:26
275.   fanerman
273 Conor Jackson has been ranked 27th, 21st, and 24th the past 3 years (2006-2008).
2008-08-21 15:07:23
276.   regfairfield
273 He's pretty terrible. (27th, 21st and 24th the last three years)
2008-08-21 15:08:05
277.   CanuckDodger
271 -- You mean at the exact same ranking relative to others at that position? A correlation doesn't have to be THAT precise to be significant. Can you find instances of a second baseman ranking really well while playing on the same side of the diamond with a first baseman who ranks badly, or vice versa?
2008-08-21 15:09:03
278.   regfairfield
277 No, just both on the list. Utley and Howard immediately comes to mind.
2008-08-21 15:12:49
279.   Gen3Blue
But a Pasadena curveball shouldn't be effective at 100 mp--never mind.

On home/Away and "playing to the level of the competition" affects, what I think may be very important is that the teams in our division play twice as hard against the Dodgers as anyone else, and I don't think this is as unimportant as most national analysts seem to.

We develop most of our own players and then spend the entire budget of 2 out of three orgs. (Pads, Rocks, and Snakes) on extra weapons (at the moment Pierre, Jones and Schmidt) so they have motivation to try hard agaist us. And the other team in our division is SF. I just hope things fall our way, but I am pretty sure this is a real affect.

2008-08-21 15:14:55
280.   CanuckDodger
What do the metrics say about Seattle's SS Betancourt. I seem to recall Dave Cameron at USS Mariner complaining about his defense, and I know Cameron relies on defensive metrics, yet American League managers just rated Betancourt as the best defensive SS in their league, according to Baseball America.
2008-08-21 15:16:52
281.   Tripon
4 games at Phillies, 3 games at Nats, and 3 games at D'Backs. We just went 7-3 on this home stand, and I'll be euphoric if we can do 7-3 on this road strip.
2008-08-21 15:17:28
282.   underdog
Argh, nothing like a big, glaring typo in a headline in a major newspaper's web site to get an editor's dander (or dandruff) up:

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_10266378

2008-08-21 15:19:00
283.   regfairfield
280 Worst in baseball.
2008-08-21 15:19:13
284.   GoBears
279 teams in our division play twice as hard against the Dodgers as anyone else,

I have no idea what this means, or how one would know.

The DBacks just kill the NL West. Does that mean that the other NL West teams roll over for them?

2008-08-21 15:22:32
285.   Tripon
284 The Giants and Padres always seem to play the Dodgers hard. At least for those two teams, they'd love to knock the Dodgers out of a playoff race just to spite them.
2008-08-21 15:25:52
286.   Bob Timmermann
All of the other four teams in the NL West have been to the World Series since the Dodgers last made it. So why would any of these teams view the Dodgers as some threat like the USSR under Stalin?
2008-08-21 15:26:32
287.   Bob Timmermann
The FANS of the Padres and Giants would like to knock out the Dodgers. The PLAYERS on each team just want to beat whomever they are playing.
2008-08-21 15:27:28
288.   Tripon
Carlos Zambrano is OPS+ 136.

Also, he is apprently a good pitcher.

2008-08-21 15:28:04
289.   CanuckDodger
283 -- Okay, so now, how do YOU deal with this conflict: metrics say Betancourt is the WORST SS in the majors, a consensus of 14 AL managers says he is the BEST in their league. Managers can be wrong, but how can so many of them be SO wrong about that? Or do you at least consider the possibility that the metric measuring SS defense is missing something that the managers aren't?
2008-08-21 15:28:23
290.   fanerman
282 Maybe in Colorado they believe that "hot" is something a team owns and not something a team is... and then the typo is that there's an extra "while" there.
2008-08-21 15:29:36
291.   LAT
In looking at the Dodgers' promotional schedule I noticed Friday, Sept. 19 begins "Fan Appreciation Week." Is this new? Fan Appreciation Day is a tradition in our house and we have tickets for Sunday Sept 24. Since when is there Fan Appreciation Week? And since when is it not on a Sunday? Anyone know anything about this? This annoys me.
2008-08-21 15:30:06
292.   KG16
256 - And underdog doesn't have to head back to the mountains.

I wouldn't unpack just yet...

2008-08-21 15:30:25
293.   skybluestoday
Re: 57 & 68

Blame Troy Miller. I know. I wuz there.

2008-08-21 15:30:44
294.   regfairfield
289 Depends on what a consensus is. Did all 14 say he was the best, or did 3 say Betancourt, 2 say Lugo, 2 say Jeter or whatever. If it's the latter, then I'd say, yes it's entirely possible that when you see a guy make 15 plays a year, you could be mistaken about him.
2008-08-21 15:31:40
295.   KG16
289 - perhaps defensive metrics simply don't work. at all. perhaps it is not something that can be quantified but can only be qualified.

(no, i don't entirely know what that last sentence means either)

2008-08-21 15:32:29
296.   Bob Hendley
256 - Don't tell us that you were going to flee to your lodge in the hills!
2008-08-21 15:33:40
297.   regfairfield
I just want to know how a system where you count every catchable ball (as defined by a ball caught by some other player at your position at some point in the year) a player gets and misses could have zero correlation with actual ability.
2008-08-21 15:38:25
298.   Daniel Zappala
If Broxton can throw a curveball by way of Pasadena, then can I at least try throwing a boomerang to Marty's orchard to collect a few of his peaches?
2008-08-21 15:39:23
299.   Fan since 59
296 Or as Groucho Marx would say: Lodge with my fleas in the hill.
2008-08-21 15:42:59
300.   goofus
257
257. ToyCannon
Whew, nothing seems easy. Going to be a long 6 weeks, this is why I'm bald.

So's Matt Holliday and I wish we had him too.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-08-21 15:46:27
301.   underdog
292/296 - I was going to return to the mountains where I was when the Dodgers went 4-1 (I did see them win the first 2 games of the Philly series), thinking perhaps I was a jinx since they'd lost the first two after my return. Of course, I might have been referring to a proverbial exile, not literal. But whatever it takes. I just wanted to see the jinx broken, and don't expect them to win all their games from here on out.
2008-08-21 15:47:04
302.   Gen3Blue
284 GoBears --I know its hard to quantify and I haven't really tried. I just think it means something, and I will try to figure it out.
2008-08-21 15:48:21
303.   Xeifrank
289. Tom Tango is putting together his Fan's Rating for defense. So far Betancourt has been rated really bad. Go over to his site and vote on the Dodger players or players from other teams that you are familiar with.
vr, Xei
2008-08-21 15:49:47
304.   Bob Timmermann
Matt Holliday has a shaved head. He's not bald. He's not a member of the bald community.
2008-08-21 15:51:32
305.   D4P
Matt Holliday is not only not a member of the bald community: he's also not the president.
2008-08-21 15:52:08
306.   Tripon
So after today with Manny running out a single, and stealing a base, are we going to see another piece from Boston crying foul over Manny's hustle?
2008-08-21 15:53:05
307.   Gen3Blue
Who viewed the USSR as a threat under Stalin? More likely the the Eastern divisions.
2008-08-21 16:06:45
309.   caseybarker
Let's hope the Central Division can stem the tide against Neo-facism while simultaneously holding off the Stalinist pigs.
2008-08-21 16:07:49
310.   underdog
Interesting comment from a Phillies blog commenter:

"it will be interesting to see how Kershaw reponds when he sees the short porches at the Zen.

There's a big difference between it and Dodger Stadium.

OTOH, he's a high-velocity pitcher and could come in and just dominate.

But if the breeze is blowing out he may find that what would be "li'l old fly balls" at Chavez Ravine turn into runs for the Phils in the cozy confines of the Zen.

If that happens it will be interesting to see how he responds.

Also, this Dodger lineup could be licking their collective chops at the opportunity to hit in Philly.

It should be fun."

2008-08-21 16:09:08
311.   ToyCannon
304
I guess that depends on what bald is. I have tons of hair on the left and right side of my head but if I let it grow I become the guy from Dilbert or Constanza.

One of my favorite George moments is when Elaine is dating a guy from the "shaved community" who had stayed shaved to long and when he went to grow his hair he had the Constanza look.

On that note, does it appear to anyone that more and more hair pieces are showing up? Costas sure looks like he's wearing one these days.

2008-08-21 16:13:40
312.   GoBears
I think it's fair to say that current defensive metrics have flaws - bigger flaws than state-of-the-art offensive metrics.

But I am sure that it is false to say that defensive ability/quality/performance is inherently unmeasurable.

Just because nobody has yet figured out a way to measure it well (and quickly) doesn't mean it's impossible. The logic behind each of ZR, RF and +/- is clever, but of course imperfect.

The problems with subjective judgments are well known. They are biased toward unusual events (great plays and big screwups are remembered, whereas routine-looking plays are not) as well as subject to observer bias (observers subconsciously basing their judgment of someone else's performance on what they think they themselves could have done).

For now, until someone builds a better mousetrap, I'd trust the objective measures much more than the subjective ones, but also be explicit about how the objective ones are constructed. Instead of looking at ZR and calling someone a good or bad defender, look at ZR and say that someone has a good or bad ZR. +/- tells us something very different from ZR. I suppose that if someone rates very highly on EVERY measure of defense, you can start to have some confidence that a summary statement of "good defender" is warranted, but otherwise, I'd just accept that there is no single overall measure of quality that ends the discussion.

2008-08-21 16:15:17
313.   Eric Stephen
310
"The Zen" is the dumbest nickname for a ballpark ever.
2008-08-21 16:17:01
314.   Tripon
I thought the Phillies ballpark was nick named the "Vet"?
2008-08-21 16:17:19
315.   ToyCannon
Why is it called "the zen"?
2008-08-21 16:17:41
316.   Dane Bramage
313 I miss the "BOB"
2008-08-21 16:18:04
317.   Eric Stephen
314
The Vet was the old Veterans' Stadium. They play at Citi zen s Bank Park now.
2008-08-21 16:19:02
318.   ToyCannon
The "zapper" is the better rattrap if you don't like picking up shattered rats, as long as you don't mind the smell of burnt flesh.
2008-08-21 16:19:15
319.   Eric Stephen
316
Me too. And Pac Bell Park is the most alliterative of the three names for the SF stadium, and not just because Kevin Elster owns the stadium.
2008-08-21 16:19:45
320.   regfairfield
315 citiZENs bank ballpark.
2008-08-21 16:20:25
321.   underdog
The Zen is a dumb nickname but I can understand shortening it, since Citizen's Bank Park is pretty dumb. CPB? The Cit? CitBanPark? Feh.
2008-08-21 16:20:52
322.   Dane Bramage
319 Naming rights debacles like that are why I'm glad the Dodgers own their stadium!
2008-08-21 16:20:55
323.   ToyCannon
317
I like it then. You need nicknames when someone forces a commercial entity on you as the name.
When McCourt sells our naming rights to BofA we don't want to be calling it the big BA.
2008-08-21 16:22:01
324.   Eric Stephen
I hope Padres' rookie hurler Chad Reineke can catch a brake tonight, but I don't think the Padres can ruffle Brandon Webb.
2008-08-21 16:22:27
325.   caseybarker
Cool article on Hardball Times reference by MLB Trade Rumors.com about past compensatory picks and the free agents they replaced. Old friend Mike Fetters gets a mention. http://tinyurl.com/6e7men
2008-08-21 16:22:43
326.   Eric Stephen
321
CiBaPa works for me! :)
2008-08-21 16:23:27
327.   Eric Stephen
323
I'll just pronounce BofA like Jimmy Hoffa's last name.
2008-08-21 16:25:29
328.   Dane Bramage
325 I miss his scowl and quick head turn...
2008-08-21 16:25:43
329.   Tripon
321 I'd just shorten it to the 'Bank'. Then make a bunch of dumb jokes.

"LETS GO TO THE BANK!" "TIME TO CASH IN SOME RUNS!" "OH, LOOKS LIKE WE JUST APR'ED THAT PITCHING STAFF." "THAT'LL TEACH YOU TO SUB PRIMED THAT LOAN."(For a rental trade where you won't really feel the effects until years later.)

2008-08-21 16:26:38
330.   trainwreck
When I think of Philly fans, I hardly think Zen.
2008-08-21 16:27:41
331.   Tripon
Red Sox just signed David Ross.
2008-08-21 16:29:29
332.   ToyCannon
328
Fetters was unique, right up there with Hrabosky.
2008-08-21 16:30:20
333.   D4P
Red Sox just signed David Ross

The Red Sox probably like his .381 OBP.

They're weird like that.

2008-08-21 16:30:42
334.   ToyCannon
331
We did the David Ross in Aug/Sept pennant race and it left a bitter taste. Hope the Red Sox enjoy him.
2008-08-21 16:30:48
335.   silverwidow
Has the "Minotaur" nickname quietly been kicked to the curb?
2008-08-21 16:33:17
336.   Bob Timmermann
335
The Minotaur will live on.
2008-08-21 16:35:29
337.   Bob Timmermann
Boston's catchers this year have been so bad that David Ross is an upgrade.
2008-08-21 16:36:14
338.   ToyCannon
324
Is that the kind of game you bet the house on and win only 20 bucks?

Cargill what are the odds tonight?

2008-08-21 16:37:23
339.   caseybarker
335

Oh, he's real now, and he's spectacular.

2008-08-21 16:37:48
340.   ToyCannon
Good time to be an ex Dodger catcher - Ross, Navarro, T Hall may all be headed for post season play.

Shocked, just shocked that Jason Phillips is not in their select company.

2008-08-21 16:44:14
341.   Bob Timmermann
340
I suppose Scioscia can be included in that company.
2008-08-21 16:47:22
342.   GoBears
I always felt a little sorry for Jason Phillips. He was what he was. It was Jim Tracy who thought that a poor-hitting catcher should play first base. Phillips just went where they told him to, and played his bespectacled heart out to limited effect.
2008-08-21 16:48:13
343.   Tripon
Jim Tracy has wrecked many of a baseball players career.
2008-08-21 16:50:57
344.   D4P
I always felt a little sorry for Hee-Seop Choi. He was what he was. It was Jim Tracy who thought that an ostensibly good-hitting first baseman should sit on the bench. Choi just went where they told him to, and sat his big Korean heart out to limited effect.
2008-08-21 16:55:48
345.   Tripon
Is Hee Sop Choi a better player over Loney though?
2008-08-21 17:01:10
346.   ToyCannon
Brad Radke thought so.
2008-08-21 17:01:15
347.   D4P
345
Sigh. We'll never know.

Could have been so beautiful
Could have been so right
We'll never know what could have been
On a cold & lonely night

2008-08-21 17:04:00
348.   Tripon
I always felt a little perplexed at Jim Tracy. He was what he was. It was Jim Tracy who thought that an ostensibly good-hitting first baseman should sit on the bench. It was Jim Tracy who thought that a poor-hitting catcher should play first base. Jim just went where they told Jim to, and sat his big confusing heart and made odd lineup cards out to limited effect.
2008-08-21 17:08:17
349.   Jim Hitchcock
So how was the backpacking, underdog?
2008-08-21 17:08:19
350.   GoBears
348. That would have been funnier in a Jim Tracy-esque "form of a question" formulation. In the 3rd person no less.

344. Well, duh. That goes without saying (although, apparently not). I was a charter member of the Hee Seop Marching and Choider Society. But I didn't think Phillips should have been cast in the role of villain.

Juan Pierre on the other hand....

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-08-21 17:08:59
351.   LAT
342. I felt sorry for him too. He barely made enough money to support his family.
2008-08-21 17:09:55
352.   Tripon
350 I blocked most of the Jim Tracy years. Somebody who can actually remember that far back can take a hack at it.
2008-08-21 17:10:33
353.   Jim Hitchcock
318 I haven't read all the posts, but what brought that comment about?
2008-08-21 17:18:37
354.   KG16
297 - it's rather subjective, don't you think?
2008-08-21 17:18:46
355.   ToyCannon
353
GoBears mentioned a better mousetrap and it just triggered a response.
2008-08-21 17:19:22
356.   Tripon
So Maddux vs. Kyle Kendrick? What's the over/under? 25 runs?
2008-08-21 17:21:33
357.   Jim Hitchcock
355 I could have used that when LAX started tearing down houses in my old neighborhood near Century and Aviation, and forced the local rat population to find new digs (like at my house).

Talk about they only come out at night!

2008-08-21 17:21:59
358.   GoBears
355. Hey, I'm a muse!

351. Oh, was Phillips one of those guys? I don't remember that, but yeah, that would certainly mitigate the pity. Good, I'm glad. Hate that guy. Punk.

2008-08-21 17:22:51
359.   ToyCannon
350
He was not very likable. The feeling I got was that he was a lousy ballplayer who felt he was better then he was. A better man would have told Jim Tracy, No, you cannot start me instead of the greatest Korean player in major league history. What would the fans chant? You cannot cheat them like this. I will humbly sit by your side as better to soak up how you can be so inept as a manager yet run one of the storied sports fanchises in all history. This should have been done in a slight bow.
2008-08-21 17:24:47
360.   KG16
348 - I had a soft spot for Tracy. I think he got thrown in over his head, but he did pretty well with the exception of 2005. I think he and DePodesta could have been pretty good together, if they would have ever got on the same page. And the fact that they never did is something that should be laid at both of their feet.
2008-08-21 17:25:41
361.   ToyCannon
357
They are quite effective inside the attic because you can use them over and over until the batteries run out unlike the old snap and crack which is only effective for one snap.
2008-08-21 17:25:49
362.   Tripon
Imagine if Tracy had a chance to manage Matt Kemp. That would a be train wreck.
2008-08-21 17:27:08
363.   D4P
I think he and DePodesta could have been pretty good together, if they would have ever got on the same page. And the fact that they never did is something that should be laid at both of their feet

Depo shouldn't have acquired good players and gotten rid of bad ones. That really messed Jim up.

2008-08-21 17:27:27
364.   ToyCannon
360
The biggest mistake Depo made was giving run of the mouth an extension for 2005. He should have taken the heat then and gotten his own manager.
2008-08-21 17:28:37
365.   fanerman
Ah 2005. What a year.
2008-08-21 17:30:07
366.   Tripon
364 It wouldn't have been much of a hit in the press. It would have been the typical spin of a GM needing his own guy on the field which happens everywhere but the Dodgers for some reason.
2008-08-21 17:30:30
367.   ToyCannon
362
I think he'd done just fine with Kemp. He was one of Milton's biggest backers until Milton stabbed him in the back by ignoring his request to keep his problems in house and ran crying to the press that Kent was a bad boy.
2008-08-21 17:31:17
368.   Bob Timmermann
I have a soft spot in my heart for 2005.
Toward the end of the year, I felt I was the only person still watching the Dodgers games. Everybody else watched Jacksonville.
2008-08-21 17:31:23
369.   The Dude Abides
Speaking of comedy, I wonder if anyone saw Pearls Before Swine today. I'm still laughing twenty minutes later.
2008-08-21 17:32:15
370.   ToyCannon
366
They were going to take potshots at him anyway he might as well do something to better the club. I'm a little surprised that Jim Tracy was liked by the press, once he started talking they would always miss their deadlines.
2008-08-21 17:33:10
371.   Alex41592
Maddux has already pitched in Philadelphia this season:

http://tinyurl.com/6868ec

6 1/3 innings, 8 hits, 3 earned runs.

2008-08-21 17:33:43
372.   Tripon
San Fran vs. Chicago. Man, this doesn't get any more brutal than this.
2008-08-21 17:33:54
373.   ToyCannon
368
We were interested in seeing what major league ballplayers looked like, you were interested in tragedy.
2008-08-21 17:34:15
374.   KG16
364 /366 - it was a failure on the parts of McCourt, Tracy, and DePodesta that they could not get on the same page. I (unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view) did not work for the Dodgers then (nor do I now), but it seems inconceivable to me that the three of them could not have had a pow wow and developed a workable relationship and (for lack of a better word) ideology.

But what do I know?

2008-08-21 17:35:29
375.   KG16
368 - I was still watching the Dodgers. I think that was about the time that I started lurking here, or even commenting.
2008-08-21 17:38:05
376.   Tripon
What tragedy? 2005 netted us the 7th pick of the draft and Clayton Kershaw. ~_~
2008-08-21 17:41:00
377.   skybluestoday
Re: 368

I listened to every darned game that year (and attended more than a few), with the exception of about 10-15 contests that my then-gf thought were worth skipping in favor of going out with her. In retrospect she was clearly right, but I lived and died (early on) with that team.

Yuck!

2008-08-21 17:44:01
378.   regfairfield
The BTF thread about Silver's top 50 piece is mainly about how Bills is ranked too low. Good sign.
2008-08-21 17:46:31
379.   KG16
377 - my then-gf

In the words of Wyatt Earp (or Kevin Costner playing Wyatt Earp): Women come and women go, the Dodgers are forever.

Unless she's become something more than a girlfriend. in which case, i got nothing.

2008-08-21 17:47:04
380.   Alex41592
From Dodgers.com:

Cory Wade, the unsung rookie workhorse who was disabled last week with shoulder tenderness, will accompany the club on the trip to Philadelphia on Thursday night, have a bullpen session Friday or Saturday, to be followed with one game for Double-A Jacksonville while the club is on the East Coast. He is eligible to be activated Sunday.

http://tinyurl.com/68gofh

2008-08-21 17:51:15
381.   skybluestoday
379

Not.

She's now dating some dude who's 10 years younger than I am (and 7 years younger than she is).

The real big shame of it all is that she had a nice place in Echo Park within walking distance of the Stadium. Not much into baseball, though. She kept referring to runs as "points," despite my best efforts.

2008-08-21 17:54:47
382.   KG16
381 - points instead of runs, awesome. I went to a game with my sister once, Dodgers-Blue Jays in interleague play and she looks up and say, "why is there a Canadian flag? Are the Blue... never mind."

I didn't let her live that one down for a couple of years.

2008-08-21 17:58:46
383.   skybluestoday
382

Sisters are easier. They have to stick with you no matter what, despite your obsessions and your teasing. (Mine just moved in to my apartment two months ago.)

2008-08-21 17:59:36
384.   arbfuldodger
R.I.P Gene Upshaw
2008-08-21 18:11:34
385.   Alex41592
Jimmy Rollins is getting the Andruw Jones treatment in Philly. Each time he makes out he's booed. Very very loudly. Lesson to be learned. Do not say anything negative about the fans.
2008-08-21 18:18:31
386.   whodat807
Olympics women taekwondo is significantly less entertaining than I had hoped.
2008-08-21 18:21:51
387.   trainwreck
I took taekwondo and I think it is most useless martial art there is.
2008-08-21 18:25:15
388.   Gen3Blue
In keeping with some of the recent posts here, I'm getting alarmed about the prospect we are giving up. When I found this site and became a more intense fan, I thought I was a crazy old Dodger fan who might be entering a golden age. Watching Ned flounder around trying to save his butt, I think I may be just a crazy old Dodger fan. But I will probably stay one.
2008-08-21 18:25:27
389.   Tripon
Joe Torre has said every single game counts in the standings. Good to know.
2008-08-21 18:28:21
390.   whodat807
387 Yeah, I'm a black belt in taekwondo and that alone is evidence that it's not very useful.

Though the fight I was watching did get significantly better, approximately when one of the fighters got kicked right in the face.

2008-08-21 18:29:17
391.   Sam PHL
Phillies fans think baseball players shouldn't make outs. If they do, they get booed.

If a player is especially good at not making outs, he will be booed because he strikes out (see Burrell).

2008-08-21 18:30:50
392.   nick
my sister once convinced me that schlepping up from New Brunswick to Yankee Stadium to see David Wells pitch would be too much hassle......still love her, of course...
2008-08-21 18:31:19
393.   whodat807
388 I've read a lot of comments you've made about the Dodgers giving up. What exactly makes you think that? I've seen evidence that management is a bit clueless, but I've never once seen anything that suggested that the team was giving up.
2008-08-21 18:31:42
394.   Tripon
Think the Nats be interested in JP? Seems like Bowden's kind of a guy.
2008-08-21 18:38:45
395.   whodat807
The McDonald's commercial where employees assemble Big Mac's while Olympic style commentators compliment their 'form and rhythm' is kind of depressing.
2008-08-21 18:41:18
396.   Indiana Jon
391 Wow, there must be a Sam on here from everywhere in the USA. Sam from Indy, if your out there, want to catch a game some time?
2008-08-21 18:42:07
397.   D4P
I'm pretty sure the Chinese female platform divers could do belly flops and still not make a splash.
2008-08-21 18:44:13
398.   Indiana Jon
397 I was just commenting to my wife how I would love to do just one good cannonball from that height.
2008-08-21 18:48:29
399.   sporky
In a DT battle between the Sams and the C___Dodgers, who would be win?
2008-08-21 18:53:39
400.   Sam DC
Hmmm . . . Nationals closer pitches the 8th inning with a one run lead. Gives up a couple of hits but allows no runs.

Nationals load the bases with two outs in the top of the ninth, and Acta lets Hanrahan hit. (He infield grounds out.)

So, to the bottom of the ninth looking for a two innning save . . .

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-08-21 18:54:02
401.   sporky
Brandon Webb vs. the lesser known prize winner of Defiance, Ohio
2008-08-21 18:54:53
402.   Tripon
Wonder why we let Hanrahan go and kept Greg Miller?
2008-08-21 18:55:14
403.   Sam DC
Sorry, Nationals closer Joel Hanrahan pitches . . .

Also, Sams of the world, Unite!

2008-08-21 18:56:11
404.   Jacob Burch
Scored two games in a row with somewhat success. Really added a lot to the game.

Granted, one was watching MLB Gameday feeds from my iPhone as a practice-sheet, so anything will make that more enjoyable.

Thanks again to BH for the ticket yesterday--despite the loss, I had a great time.

Scary Scoring-Game questions to come for a Mr. Timmerman or whomever, but probably not until this weekend.

2008-08-21 19:04:43
405.   Alex41592
Washington snaps it's 12 game losing streak in Philly. And here come the Dodgers...
2008-08-21 19:06:51
406.   D4P
Yawwwwnnn. Adam Dunn draws a walk.
2008-08-21 19:09:46
407.   Icaros
406

He's killing the D-backs.

2008-08-21 19:09:56
408.   Tripon
T Clark hit sacrifice fly to left, A Dunn scored, M Reynolds to third.
2008-08-21 19:14:58
409.   Gen3Blue
393 I'm sorry if I've given that impression, and I didn't realize if I was. But I guarantee I never said or meant that any of the players were giving up in any way.
Now that I think of it, I don't think anyone involved with the franchise is or ever has given up. That doesn't preclude stupidity of course.
2008-08-21 19:15:58
410.   Gen3Blue
394 We can hope--but I doubt it.
2008-08-21 19:16:18
411.   oshea2002
I can't imagine any of us thought the Pads would do anything other then get swept.
2008-08-21 19:17:53
412.   Tripon
The 51's led all the way and had a shutout going through seven, but Heath Totten stayed in four batters too long and the Sky Sox got back into the game with a five-run eighth. Blake DeWitt and Rene Rivera both homered twice, and both drove in four. - via 6-4-2

Blake DeWitt just might be a player that goes though slumps and streaks. Prolonged slumps that drive you insane and confusing streaks.

2008-08-21 19:19:31
413.   Gen3Blue
399 don't leave out the _Bears. Have I been LATed--if not I better shut up.
2008-08-21 19:25:03
414.   Tripon
Hmm, Rene Rivera is OPSing .824 in 105 at bats.
2008-08-21 19:30:20
415.   regfairfield
414 In case you had any hope left that stats in Vegas were legit...
2008-08-21 19:32:20
416.   Eric Enders
402 "Wonder why we let Hanrahan go and kept Greg Miller?"

Hanrahan was 25 years old, he was throwing his fastball in the high 80s, and he'd posted ERAs over 5 in two of his last three minor league seasons. He wasn't worth wasting a 40-man roster spot on at the time. Keeping Miller was the right move since he had better upside. (Although it's nice to see that Hanrahan has his fastball back.)

2008-08-21 19:33:14
417.   Alex41592
Padres get what could be there only chance to score on Webb. Two on and nobody out for Kouzmanoff.
2008-08-21 19:34:20
418.   Alex41592
And he strikes out. One away.
2008-08-21 19:37:17
419.   Alex41592
See it's almost not fair because the Padres actually are facing the Cy Young winner. Two away on another K.
2008-08-21 19:40:26
420.   Alex41592
You already know...
2008-08-21 19:42:16
421.   KG16
390 - ah, I missed martial arts thoughts. bummer. though I suspect my thoughts on tkd would violate a couple of rules.

412 - don't all players go through slumps and streaks? i would posit that the objective is to narrow the gap between slumps and streaks, but the nature of the game is you can go hitless for two weeks and then get a hit everyday for a month. funny game, baseball.

2008-08-21 19:46:54
422.   Tripon
421 Okay, extreme streaks and slumps. DeWitt's only still 22, but you gotta wonder when he'll put it all together, if he's allowed to do it with the major league team, or he'll be stashed at Triple A again next year, and leave a hole at 3rd again next year.
2008-08-21 19:50:09
423.   D4P
American hurdler David Oliver has ridiculously large deltoids.
2008-08-21 19:55:05
424.   KG16
422 - I suspect DeWitt puts it together next year. But I was one of his bigger supporters around here, so take it for what it's worth. And to be honest, I don't mind having one streaky player in the line up.
2008-08-21 19:55:23
425.   Tripon
Getting used to driving in general again, and on LA freeways, no less. It's not all as easy as cruising down the Pacific Coast Highway, which I need to start calling the PCH, apparently. I've got to find my way around a place that stretches over 400 square miles, sit in traffic, NOT get run off the freeway, and figure out how to make left-hand turns in the city.

When has PCH ever been an easy drive?

2008-08-21 20:00:06
426.   herchyzer
Thank goodness for Lowe. How about in the off-season we re-up Lowe and Manny. Forget the Sabathia talk. I'm assuming the Dodgers will decide they can't afford Sabathia and Manny. What would Lowe's asking price be for the D's? I'm also assuming that Lowe's heart is not completely set on returning to the East Coast. I guess I'm overloading the question with assumptions.
2008-08-21 20:03:03
427.   Tripon
426 At least $10 million for 3 or 4 years. But he's worth two high draft picks if he leaves. Imagine if a team like the Texas Rangers signs him, and we get the 18th pick of the draft and a compensation pick in the late 30s? We need to rebuild our farm system, especially if we want to sign a guy like C.C. and give our first rounder away.
2008-08-21 20:07:52
428.   KG16
425 - PCH in Newport, Huntington, and Seal Beach is pretty easy. Much north of 2nd Street in Long Beach, it's not so easy.
2008-08-21 20:12:06
429.   Tripon
Arizona 3
Padres 0

Top of 6th.

2008-08-21 20:36:10
430.   larry slimfast
Tomko
2008-08-21 20:50:18
431.   jasonungar07
This is gonna be tough to win the division. I never like our chances knowing we have to beat a pair of aces over there in Arizona. And without checking stats, I trust none of our starters other than Chad on the road.
2008-08-21 20:58:16
432.   Alex41592
Webb is unquestionably an ace. But, keep an eye on Haren, he has always been a first half pitcher and typically struggles down the stretch. September is Haren's worst month. He's showing the same signs of it happening once again.
2008-08-21 21:15:27
433.   Jon Weisman
HR: Loney (10)
Lowe (W, 10-10)
Kuo (H, 10)
Broxton (S, 10)
2008-08-21 21:18:19
434.   Bluebleeder87
just checked the Marlins schedule & they've lost 2 in arrow against SF, hopefully they can turn it around when the snakes get there.
2008-08-21 21:24:30
435.   Bluebleeder87
Here's a little something on Penny from Dodgers Dot Com [ http://tinyurl.com/68gofh ]

The thought of Penny as a fire-balling reliever has always intrigued scouts and club officials, particularly after he started the 2006 All-Star Game throwing 100-mph fastballs past Ichiro Suzuki, Derek Jeter and David Ortiz, striking out the side while knowing that he didn't need to pace himself for 100-plus pitches.

if it was previous posted my apologies.

2008-08-21 21:32:27
436.   Gagne55
432 Yeah, but Johnson appears to have gotten six years younger. The Big Unit is on fire!!
2008-08-21 21:38:09
437.   whodat807
Anybody watching the Korea-Japan semifinal game? Small ball to the max. And being a huge Korea fan, also driving me slowly insane.
2008-08-21 21:40:00
438.   caseybarker
433

Aha, dueces wild--binary style.

2008-08-21 21:47:04
439.   Tripon
Huh, I did not know Michael Schur writes for FMJ.
2008-08-21 21:52:55
440.   Jon Weisman
439 - http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/905172.html
2008-08-21 21:58:32
441.   underdog
349 Sorry, Jim, didn't say that 'til now - was away from the 'net for the rest of the day. Backpacking was super. It was exhausting the first two days but then we set up camp and took day hikes so it wasn't so bad (especially after getting used to the altitude). It took forever to get there because you have to drive down a hairy, windy road down to Florence Lake, and then take a boat across to where we hiked out. But anyway, it was beautiful and met some nice people on the trail. Our camp was near the John Muir Ranch which had some lovely horses but we got a bit tired of hiking past all their leavings and hearing them in the middle of the night. But swimming in the river and having them come up to us, and drink, and all, was pretty special, magical. Anyway, it was a memorable time. And I was glad to be home.
2008-08-21 21:59:43
442.   underdog
433 Tens are wild!

How was the game in person?

2008-08-21 22:00:59
443.   Eric Stephen
433
Decenas wild!
2008-08-21 22:01:22
444.   LAT
I'm really pulling for Maddux the rest of the season. Yeah, the Dodgers can use his help but the fact that with his next two wins he pushes Roger Clemens down the all-time win list really excites me.
2008-08-21 22:01:32
445.   Jon Weisman
442 - I hadn't been to a midweek day game in ages. It had a decidedly non-playoff atmosphere, but there was good conversation to be had, and we of course all left happy.
2008-08-21 22:01:37
446.   Eric Stephen
442
It took me longer because I had to look up the Spanish plural of tens! :)
2008-08-21 22:12:40
447.   Daniel Zappala
438 had it right.
2008-08-21 22:13:25
448.   underdog
445 - Seemed like a decent sized crowd considering it was a noon start on a weekday. I'm sure the next home stand will be rocking more, though.
2008-08-21 22:17:01
449.   Jon Weisman
Really, 433 was worthy of a separate post.
2008-08-21 22:22:51
450.   Tripon
Ninja vigilantes busted going after drug dealers in N.J.

http://www.yahoo.com/s/940028

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2008-08-21 22:24:04
451.   gpellamjr
446 Why didn't you look up the Spanish version of "wild"?
2008-08-21 22:29:04
452.   Eric Stephen
451
I was going for the alliteration...decenas sounds sort of like deuces.
2008-08-21 22:30:26
453.   trainwreck
450
That needs to be made into a movie.
2008-08-21 22:34:24
454.   Tripon
453 I thought it was a spoof for a Napoleon Dynamite sequel for a minute.
2008-08-21 22:42:16
455.   Eric Stephen
Maddux has given up 810 doubles in his career. That's 3 more than Steve Carlton for the most since 1956 (when full play-by-play data is available).

I wonder if Maddux has given up the most doubles all-time.

Cy Young probably gave up more doubles, since he has about 2300 more IP, even though he pitched in the dead ball era there were still a fair amount of doubles hit.

Here are the pre-1956 pitchers with more IP than Maddux:

Cy Young - 7354.2 IP
Pud Galvin - 6003.1
Walter Johnson - 5914.2
Warren Spahn - 5243.2
Pete Alexander - 5190
Kid Nichols - 5056.1
Tim Keefe - 5047.2

It's certainly possible/probable that Maddux is no worse than the 3rd most all-time doubles giver upper.

2008-08-21 22:43:06
456.   Tripon
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Cops_nab_Ninga_vigilantes_.html

article on the 'ninjas'

2008-08-21 22:46:09
457.   trainwreck
456
Delivering warning letters...

lol

2008-08-21 22:48:39
458.   whodat807
Japan collapsed like a house of cards in the bottom of the eighth, Korea goes on the gold medal game, to be faced by the winner of the Cuba-US game. Olympic baseball makes me happy.
2008-08-21 23:05:26
459.   caseybarker
458

Tell that to Barry Newman of the Wall Street Journal.

2008-08-21 23:10:51
460.   Alex41592
Maddux is already making his presence felt.

L.A Times Dylan Hernandez:

Lowe pitched 6 1/3 innings of one-run ball in the Dodgers' 3-1 victory over the Colorado Rockies on Thursday at Dodger Stadium, something he said he didn't do alone.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers22-2008aug22,0,3075458.story

2008-08-21 23:14:37
461.   underdog
Meanwhile, USA is showing the men's race-walking final, which still looks to me like something from Monty Python, not a sport, and NBC just showed the BMX motocross finals, which I didn't even realize was an Olympic sport. {click}
2008-08-21 23:29:25
462.   Eric Stephen
461
Race walking is pretty entertaining to watch, if only for the soccer-style overzealous refs and their yellow and red cards.
2008-08-21 23:43:32
463.   MC Safety
Derek Lowe has always been a winner, he doesn't need Maddux. Just ask the man us winners refer to as Mr. Ring N. Box. Dylan's just reporting things happening over the course of a day. We all know this a game that's played over the course of several months.
2008-08-22 00:40:09
464.   bhsportsguy
Is volleyball the USA's best sport, 2 golds in beach volleyball and now both the men's and women's teams make the gold medal game in the traditional version.
2008-08-22 04:25:36
465.   D4P
Just another 3 walks for Dunn last night.
2008-08-22 07:39:55
466.   D4P
460
I don't doubt that Maddux understands what particular hitters are trying to do and how pitchers can best get them out.

The thing I don't get is why Maddux is unique in this respect. I have to think that any pitcher could sit down with the coaching staff, look at tapes of hitters, and figure out an effective strategy for how to pitch to them.

I suspect that the difference between Maddux and other pitchers is not that Maddux is inherently smarter or much better able to figure this stuff out, but rather that most pitchers don't go to so much trouble, especially those with guaranteed lucrative contracts. They rely on the managers and catchers to call the pitches and set up the target, and they throw what and where they're told to throw.

2008-08-22 07:58:03
467.   D4P
Wake up, people.
2008-08-22 07:58:35
468.   Marty
Hasn't Maddux had guaranteed, lucrative contracts 99% of his career?
2008-08-22 08:03:47
469.   D4P
468
I don't mean

1. If a pitcher has a GLC, he won't put "a lot" of effort into figuring out how to pitch to individual hitters.

I do mean

1. If a pitcher has a GLC, he may be less likely to put "a lot" of effort into figuring out how to pitch to individual hitters.

More to the point, I'm trying to figure out why other pitchers can't do what Maddux allegedly does. I'm hesitant to accept that other pitchers can't do what he does, so I'm looking for an alternative explanation.

2008-08-22 08:11:11
470.   JoeyP
USA - 49
Argentina- 40

At halftime.

2008-08-22 08:13:22
471.   Bob Timmermann
469
Different pitchers have different skill sets. Maddux knew that he needed to work on his approach to hitters to be successful. It's not like he throws like CC Sabathia.
2008-08-22 08:16:38
472.   Bluebleeder87
Maddux at Philly.
2008-08-22 08:16:57
473.   D4P
471
But we're apparently supposed to believe that Maddux is helping our pitchers, simply by telling them how to pitch to particular hitters, independent of the pitchers' respective skill sets.

If Penny and Lowe are being helped in this way, why couldn't they have figured out the things Maddux is telling them, either on their own or with the coaching staff and scouts? Isn't that largely what the coaching staff and scouts are for?

2008-08-22 08:17:40
474.   Sam PHL
Preparation is great, but it means nothing without execution.

I don't think most pitchers have the control that Maddux does. He is 52 all time in career BB / 9 IP at 1.8.

Maddux is able to figure out how to pitch to batters and actually do it. A contrast would be Bannister, who seems to know what to do, but just can't carry it out.

2008-08-22 08:20:44
475.   D4P
For example:

It shouldn't be difficult to figure out whether a particular hitter prefers fastballs or off-speed pitches, inside or outside pitches, high or low pitches, etc. It also shouldn't be difficult to figure out whether a particular hitter tends to swing or not on particular counts, whether he "tries to go the other way" (or whatever) in particular situations, etc.

It's also possible that hitters have "tells" (in a poker sense), and reveal their intentions through body language.

I don't see any reason why Maddux would be the only pitcher to pay attention to this stuff, other than that other pitchers aren't taking the time to pay attention to this stuff. But even that's not a satisfactory explanation, because coaches and scouts are paid to make sure that pitchers are paying attention to this stuff (aren't they...?).

2008-08-22 08:21:46
476.   D4P
Preparation is great, but it means nothing without execution. I don't think most pitchers have the control that Maddux does.

I understand that, but Lowe and Penny aren't saying that Maddux is helping them with their control. They're (apparently) saying that he's helping them with strategy.

2008-08-22 08:23:32
477.   cargill06
Penny to the bull-pen sounds interesting, it maybe a good combo.
2008-08-22 08:26:08
478.   Sam PHL
476 - I don't buy what Penny and Lowe are selling. It's hype around the new acquisition. They might believe it, but I don't think it's happening.

I mean Maddux was in LA in 2006. Did Penny and Lowe forget everything Maddux told them between then and now? Did they see how important preparation can be and then decide they wouldn't do it once Maddux left? Is Maddux just an uber-scout?

2008-08-22 08:28:02
479.   Andrew Shimmin
Maddux is probably just on steroids. It makes his brain smarter than normal pitchers' brains.

Cheater.

2008-08-22 08:28:08
480.   D4P
478
You might be right. Something doesn't add up here.
2008-08-22 08:31:49
481.   ToyCannon
477
It also sounded interesting in Sept of 2006, didn't really amount to much.

If he's only going to become a setup/closer I'd drop his option.

One thing about Maddux is what an incredible fielder he is. I only saw him off and on when he pitched for the Cubs/Braves but for that brief period he pitched for us he was the best fielder I'd ever seen on the Dodger mound. You must have serious reflexes to do what he does so while he may look like the most unathletic guy on the club it is probably the opposite. Probably a nasty table tennis player.

2008-08-22 08:34:03
482.   Gen3Blue
Its hard to buy into much of this great affect Maddox has on the other pitchers around him. But it is not hard to see that he might make a wonderful scout or pitching coach someday, and I wish I had a bit more confidence in the organization realizing these kinds of things.
2008-08-22 08:40:03
483.   ToyCannon
Coolstanding.com has our division chance at 35%.
http://tinyurl.com/6fylqh

At least we aren't the Yankee's. Not trading Hughes/Kennedy for Santana is not looking good right now. Santana would not have made a difference this year but I'd rather have Santana next year than the constantly hurt Hughes and the ineffective Kennedy.

2008-08-22 08:40:14
484.   Gen3Blue
481 I saw those incredible reactions too. Probably he could be a goalie in hockey.
Its hard to see how that skill could be connected to his skills in pitching strategy, but some talents run together, and these are not very well studied skills.
2008-08-22 08:40:37
485.   whodat807
478 Maybe Maddux isn't giving them game breaking tips, but the fact that Lowe and Penny (at least in 2006) gained some confidence from listening to Maddux has to be at least somewhat beneficial, no?
2008-08-22 08:49:05
486.   cargill06
483 I don't know, Santana is clearly on the downside his K rate is down from 9.7 K/9IP and 7.5 K/9IP and his walk rate is it's highest since '03. His fastball rarely gets into the 90's now, the back 3 or 4 years of that contract could look really sketchy.
2008-08-22 08:49:56
487.   cargill06
486 That money they saved on him could actualy be spent better in the next few years.
2008-08-22 08:50:06
488.   Terry A
But Maddux is undeniably the best guy to have around when teammates have painful jellyfish stings.
2008-08-22 08:56:30
489.   Sam PHL
In 2006, Maddux joined the Dodgers on Aug 3. Here are the ERA / OPS Against numbers for Penny and Lowe in 2006.

Penny:
Before Maddux: 3.50 / .719
After Maddux: 6.21 / .861

Lowe:
Before Maddux: 4.29 / .701
After Maddux: 2.39 / .607

Penny was terrible after the Maddux acquisition. Lowe was great. I don't think we can isolate a Maddux effect here, but it's definitely not conclusive that he bettered the staff.

But, hey, if Lowe has a 2.5 ERA for the rest of this season and it's really because of Maddux, I'd be ecstatic.

2008-08-22 08:56:30
490.   underdog
Why wouldn't you buy it? A lot of players have credited Maddux with helping them figure out the best ways to maximize their pitching strategy. And has Penny ever struck you as the brightest guy/pitcher around? Maddux is clearly destined to be a pitching coach some day. Why would Kershaw and Billingsley also credit him with giving them tips, Bills also did so the previous time Maddux was there when Bills was a rookie. Maddux has always been great at maximizing his stuff, he's one of the smartest pitchers I've ever seen. There's nothing that fishy about this at all, to my eye.
2008-08-22 08:57:59
491.   underdog
490 - Doesn't mean Maddux = guaranteed success for these guys, as 489 points out, just that they seek his advice and he's got intelligent strategy to pass on to them. It's still up to the pitchers to pitch well.
2008-08-22 08:58:48
492.   ToyCannon
484
The pitching strategy is probably overrated. Everyone has a strategy, the difference is that in his hey day he could execute the strategy to perfection thus making it look like he had a better strategy, instead of just acknowledging he was simply an outstanding pitcher.

The athletic skills translate into a repeatable delivery.

2008-08-22 08:59:50
493.   Tripon
This time, word had leaked in early July out of Los Angeles that the Dodgers were pursuing Wilson. The Pirates and Dodgers talked for about a week, but the sides never agreed on a package of prospects as the return. Other teams called, but no substantive talks materialized.

package of prospects? Really? For Jack Wilson?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08235/906166-63.stm

2008-08-22 09:00:58
494.   ToyCannon
489
Penny was hurt in the 2nd half of 2006. To many variables to make any case for or against the Maddux effect.
2008-08-22 09:01:26
495.   Tripon
Hall of Fame third baseman Mike Schmidt, appearing tonight at McCoy Stadium, said that Manny Ramirez's behavior in his final days in Boston was "from a player's standpoint, one of the worst things I've ever witnessed in the history of the game."

http://www.beloblog.com/ProJo_Blogs/sportsblog/2008/08/mike-schmidt-pa.html

2008-08-22 09:01:58
496.   Sam PHL
492 is a clearer way of stating my position.
2008-08-22 09:02:02
497.   ToyCannon
493
Thank you Nomar for still being able to play SS.
2008-08-22 09:02:13
498.   Disabled List
I believe the D-Backs are 7-2 with Dunn.
2008-08-22 09:05:20
499.   Who Is Karim Garcia
My Modern Pentathlon...

1. Speed ironing
2. 110 Freeway navigation
3. Perfect spot parking
4. the 1000 meter Chavez Ravine hike
5. Taking score while not spilling condiments on the card

2008-08-22 09:07:01
500.   Eric Stephen
While listening to the game yesterday, I thought I heard Vin say Willy Taveras had 59 steals this season. That seemed way too high (has he been on base 59 times???). Well, I forgot about it until this morning, and I looked it up and sure enough Taveras has 59 SB, by far a career high.

He's only been caught 6 times. Since 1920, there have only been 5 seasons with more SB by a player with fewer than 10 CS:

Tim Raines: 70 out of 79 (both 1985 & 1986)
Bert Campaneris: 62/70, 1969
Tony Womack: 60/67, 1997
Joe Morgan: 60/69, 1976 (MVP)

Speaking of high SB rates, Jimmy Rollins is 31/33 this season (93.9%), and the Phillies as a team have been successful an amazing 83.9% as a team (they were 87.9% last year).

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2008-08-22 09:09:23
501.   Eric Stephen
499
Ironing a Dodger jersey? Just throw it in the dryer! :)
2008-08-22 09:10:58
502.   Gen3Blue
497 Amen to that. We could have been cleaned out worse than we have been, although we're not sure how bad that is.
I wonder how long it will take once Furcal starts his comeback.
2008-08-22 09:15:35
503.   Sam PHL
I hate being afraid when the Dodgers are rumored to be in trade talks. It would be nice to be an A's fan and actually get excited about the players that will be coming back instead of living in fear about who you're giving up.
2008-08-22 09:18:27
504.   Who Is Karim Garcia
503

.... and readying to turn around and sell them in another 3 years.

2008-08-22 09:19:50
505.   Tripon
503 Except when you tear down a team still in its prime. Harden, and Haren didn't need be be moved this year. Its not like they were in the early 30's, ready to command huge contracts, they were in the mid to late 20's still on team controls. Especially Haren, he had 3 years left on arbitration when he was traded to the D'backs.
2008-08-22 09:21:05
506.   silverwidow
At this point, I only feel leery about giving up Santana. Shapiro may have pulled a fast one there.
2008-08-22 09:21:25
507.   Who Is Karim Garcia
Not to mention Swisher.
2008-08-22 09:23:24
508.   Sam PHL
504 - versus turning around and losing them for lesser value than what you gave up in the same year (Baez, Lugo, maybe Blake)?

I'll take selling in 3 years please.

2008-08-22 09:27:53
509.   ToyCannon
503
Why? If we were the A's we'd be trading Kemp, Loney, Martin, Kershaw, and Chad within a few years. Beane has historically done a great job trading for young major league players, who exactly has he traded for that was a prospect that became a star? Ellis is the only name that comes to mind and he is hardly a star.

Haren was a young established pitcher for the Cardinals. Meyer was the prospect who failed. Daric Barton was the big prospect from the Cardinals in the Haren deal. He kind of sucks after all the hype.

He has gotten a ton of guys but who knows if any will make them forget Haren. Maybe Gonzalez is the guy to breakthrough but I'd rather have my guys then keep trying to build over and over again.

2008-08-22 09:29:07
510.   Eric Stephen
Kyle Kendrick is averging 4.08 K/9 this year, and has had more than 4 K in a start three times (5 twice and a 6).

Maddux is at 4.70 K/9, and has also had more than 4 K only thrice (5 all three times).

Tonight is a perfect matchup for KG16! :)

Unless Maddux faces off against the Rockies' Livan Hernandez later this season, tonight might be the last time this season Maddux is the relative strikeoutingest starter.

2008-08-22 09:29:30
511.   cargill06
509 Everytime I hear the name Chad and Kershaw I get this tingly feeling in my stomach.
2008-08-22 09:30:10
512.   Kuo-fax
Gotta agree with the 'Dog on this one. In any sport there are people who think through the game, and think about what each player is doing, and those who don't. Some rely on skill, and some work hard to develop it.

Maddux doesn't do anything that any other pitcher couldn't do, he just has a good combination of many years of experience, great preparation (review scouting reports and tape), a very good baseball mind (potential coaching mentality), plus good communication skills, from what I can tell.

Like having an extra coach. I can see why the other pitchers would like to pick his brain and try to understand how he sees the game.

2008-08-22 09:30:41
513.   Who Is Karim Garcia
504

Losing who. Jackson and Navarro might be the only two players I actually miss and that's arguable considering Martin and our minor league pitching depth.

We're not trading away a Pedro, folks.

If it costs Andy LaRoche to make a legitimate run at the playoffs, I'm all for it. Even if it ends in failure. I'm more partial to that approach than Oakland's revolving door of prospects.

2008-08-22 09:32:45
514.   Sam PHL
509 is true. The A's were just an example of a management with a vision and a team that will likely contend as a result of some of their acquisitions. Obviously, the market conditions are completely different and dictate the types of trades (the Dodgers don't need to trade Kemp because they will be able to pay him).

It was more a comment on our management and how distrust makes trade rumors insufferable. I feel like other teams fans actually get excited when hearing trade rumors about their team.

2008-08-22 09:33:15
515.   cargill06
513 Jackson? I don't miss him one bit, we can always bring up a AAAA pitcher if we cant Edwin back, same thing.
2008-08-22 09:34:56
516.   JoeyP
If any of the Dodger pitchers have bad games, I'll be the first to blame Maddux.

If he gets un-due credit, he should get un-due blame.

2008-08-22 09:34:57
517.   Sam PHL
513. Trading chips given away for nothing.
2008-08-22 09:35:08
518.   cargill06
pitcher if we cant Edwin back, same thing.

If we want Edwin back, same thing.

2008-08-22 09:36:20
519.   Sam PHL
Oh, and I like the Manny trade. It's when I hear Jack Wilson that I get queasy.
2008-08-22 09:37:07
520.   Tripon
517 First time I heard Manny is nothing.
2008-08-22 09:39:41
521.   Sam PHL
Was referring to Navarro especially, and now Santana. I'm fine with Manny.
2008-08-22 09:41:10
522.   ToyCannon
Carl Pavano pitching for the Yankee's on Saturday. The choices were Pavano, Zimmerman, or ???? Yikes

Of course it would be a totally cool story if Zimmerman actually did something for the Yankees. Just think if the Met's hadn't been so stupid to trade Kazmir for Zimmerman how many GM's might have been inclined to do something as stupid. Now everytime they contemplate trading their best prospect for a run of the mill major league pitcher they have to ask themselves "Do I want to be a talking head for ESPN or working in baseball".

2008-08-22 09:42:57
523.   cargill06
522 Don't you mean Zambrano?
2008-08-22 09:43:09
524.   Eric Stephen
522
Zambrano?
2008-08-22 09:44:42
525.   Eric Stephen
522
Jim "Don't Call Me Dan" Duquette was the GM that traded Kazmir for Zambrano.
2008-08-22 09:46:18
526.   cargill06
Yikes, in '03 and '04 Victor Zambrano had a 5.7 BB/9IP
2008-08-22 09:47:37
527.   regfairfield
Look at it from the Devil Rays perspective. They gave up two draft picks for an All Star Catcher and a (lucky) starter with a sub four ERA, plus Ruggiano might be a decent backup outfielder.

When you do the classic Ned send out mid level prospect for a player of little to no value, all it takes is one of those prospects to pan out for it to be a net loss in the end. Yeah, Tiffany, Guzman, Pedroza, and Seo never amounted to anything, but you can't argue that we won the series of deals with the Devil Rays.

2008-08-22 09:47:39
528.   ToyCannon
520
Come now, Manny was only one trade. As Andrew and Jon have pointed out many times the problem is not in trading the chips, the problem is in the return. The more chips you give away the less of a pot you have to work with when you really want something.
An All-Star catcher like Navarro is nothing to sneeze at when you say I only miss Navarro. What do you think the Yankee's might have been willing to trade to get him back when Posada went down? A friggin mountain of gold, that is what. A pitcher like Edwin Jackson is in the rotation of the best team in baseball pitching in a tough AL division. Wily Aybar is now starting at 3rd base for the same team and since replacing Longoria is hitting better then Blake. These are not fungible players but key members of the best team in baseball.
2008-08-22 09:48:26
529.   cargill06
526 Yikes and in '03 and '04 he hit 1.0 batters per 9
2008-08-22 09:48:29
530.   ToyCannon
Crap, of course I meant Zambrano. Why do I have Zimmerman on my mind?
2008-08-22 09:49:29
531.   ToyCannon
525
I know, I wasn't referring to Steve Philips just that any failed baseball person seems to end up working for ESPN.

Cashman should be next.

2008-08-22 09:50:55
532.   underdog
Zambrano is Spanish for Zimmerman.

Pavano is Spanish for Rosenberg, I believe.

2008-08-22 09:50:56
533.   Eric Stephen
530
Listening to Dylan?
2008-08-22 09:51:49
534.   ToyCannon
I thought Pavano was Spanish for General Soreness.
2008-08-22 09:53:46
535.   JoeyP
If it costs Andy LaRoche to make a legitimate run at the playoffs, I'm all for it. Even if it ends in failure.

Since the division isnt very good, I think the Dodgers could have kept Andy LaRoche & still made a legit run at the playoffs.

The Dodgers created another hole for 2009, & thinned out their minor league prospects. 2008 doesnt seem like the seasont to go all in, especially since the division sucks as is.

2008-08-22 09:54:50
536.   eusmus
Looks like Kershaw didn't make Nate Silver's list after all, not even getting an honorable mention.

http://tinyurl.com/6dcmcd

2008-08-22 09:54:57
537.   ToyCannon
Manny OPS down to 850 for the last 7 days. Will we still be in love with him when we come back from this road trip? Will he rip the "Zen", destroy the Nat's, and lead us past the Snakes?
2008-08-22 09:58:51
538.   Eric Stephen
531
You know who I like on ESPN, who I didn't think I would like at all? Buck Showalter. He seemed uptight as a manager (a little too detail oriented and taskmasterish) but he'll give good insight every now and then.

Bobby Valentine was also good, and it was always great to see how mad Gammons would get at him.

Orel Hershiser is probably my favorite person currently associated with ESPN baseball (present company excluded of course, Molly).

2008-08-22 09:59:07
539.   cargill06
536 How do you rank Hanley ahead of Wright and Pujols? I know SS increases his value, but it shouldn't if you're probably the worst defensive player at your position.
2008-08-22 09:59:42
540.   Tripon
535 Its just as likely LaRoche was going to be moved in the off season for another need the Dodgers had. LaRoche was 25, had a history of injury, and while talented, 2008 was a lost season for him. I'm surprised that the Dodgers were able to move a guy like LaRoche this season before somebody as established as Manny.

Lets me put it this way, we could have traded LaRoche for Jack Wilson this off season.

2008-08-22 10:01:27
541.   JoeyP
Manny - 1.204
Dunn - 1.129
Nady - .991
Bay - .971

Sabathia - 73 IP, 1.60 ERA

There's some stiff competition for most influential mid-season acquistion.

2008-08-22 10:04:32
542.   Eric Stephen
537
That's what's so great about Manny. His slump is an 850 OPS! Which would still be leading the regulars (Kemp is at .829). Awesome.
2008-08-22 10:05:31
543.   D4P
Manny OPSed .714 in the month of May.
2008-08-22 10:12:39
544.   Jon Weisman
NPUT
2008-08-22 10:17:16
545.   KG16
527 - but you could say that about any trade involving prospects. That's why teams trade for prospects, on the off chance that one of them develops into a legit player. But the odds tend to go against it.

535 - The Dodgers did not go all in. To extend the poker analogy (I apologize in advance for what this will do), they are not even pot committed. They've made a few aggressive bets (something you have to do in order to win pots). Sometimes aggressive bets work, some times they don't. Look at what the Dodgers have coming back next year: Kemp; Ethier; Martin; Billingsly; Kershaw; Loney (who we all know you hate, but still); Hu; Young; McDonald; Stultz. Are there holes, yes, but not major ones, and not ones that can't be addressed either internally or through the free agent/trade markets.

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