LAT'd from the last thread:

Here we go again,

East Coast ESPN (radio) condemning the Dodgers for not throwing back in Game 2. Brett Myers is now a marked man. I hate unwritten rules!

I was so fed up, I sent this email to ESPN:

"I am so sick of these stupid unwritten rules. You have to go [retaliate] with a guy in the same inning with two outs. I'm more interested in getting guys OUT. Yea Victorino isn't the best choice, but again, two outs, same inning.

For goodness sake, what do the Dodgers have to do? Throw at Chase Utley at every at bat? Get Juan Pierre to charge the mound? Get the whole team suspended by fighting the Phillies bullpen?! You can't risk losing players to ejections and suspensions. End of story."

Dodgers, don't give in to this junk... the bat is mightier than the sword!

Heeps? What's Dickens got to do with this? ;)

Manuel gets to choose Moyer or Blanton for game 7. Unless we REALLY shell Blanton tomorrow night, I'd expect to see him in game 7.

In my mind, tomorrow is a must-win with Hamels going on Wednesday. That game is not necessarily a must-win, but it'd really take the wind out of the Phillies' sails if we could take that one. Bills'll have a real shot for redemption in that game.

This reminds me... things are all good so I hate to bring up a negative but Ethier failing to move on that ball in the 7th made me crazy. I realize you can't let that ball get by you but that one was entirely catchable. He has been way too timid on line drives hit in front of him for quite a while now. It seems like last year he made several sliding catches on balls in front of him and then one got by him. Ever since then he has frozen on any ball hit in front of him. It looks to be some mental block and I wish he would break through it. That could have been a big inning.

What a good game tonight! It was nice to see the Orel ovation in addition to the Lasorda and Fernando ones. I really enjoyed that Davey Lopes completed the infield throwing out the first pitches tonight too.

I was at the game with my brother and niece, as well as Jacob Burch. We had a great time. I also had the pleasure of meeting sporky, as well as seeing bhsportsguy and dkminnick.

I hate to continue beating the Journey drum, but a funny moment happened when I told my brother Broxton would be even more effective if he had entrance music. I suggested the theme from Jaws, but about 1.2 seconds after the bullpen gates opened Don't Stop Believin' blared through the loud speakers. It was a total coincidence, but I thought it hilarious.

The good tidings continue tomorrow night. My collection of rally towels is growing by leaps and bounds this fall!

LAT'd:

Pitchers born in Japan, from Baseball Reference:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3wds2n

I didn't click on each one to see if they'd pitched with the Dodgers.

Accuscore has us as 66/34 favorites for tomorrow.

4 - The thing is, you can let that ball get by you. With a six-run lead, I'm willing to risk Howard getting an extra base or two if it gives me a good shot at getting an out.

If he didn't see it, that's one thing, but if he was being conservative in that situation, I'd rather he wasn't.

4
I haven't seen any replays, but on first view I didn't think Ethier had a chance on that play. I could be wrong of course, but I thought Ethier was just trying to trick the runner into thinking it could be caught.

IIRC, about 20 years ago, there was a Southern Cal-Arizona State baseball game in Tempe in which a massive brawl broke out. It was so out of control, state troopers (on-campus security) were called to the stadium to restore order.

8. Actually, you're right. You need outs and you can risk extra base hits to get them. Same reason you can throw a fastball strike to Ryan Howard in the same situation. If it were an isolated incident I'd chalk it up to getting fooled off the bat or the lights but it seems to be a trend with him.

Jon's post here throws over the head of this one, which had it coming:

http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1159356.html

;-)

10 - Yeah, I remember that, and I do think it was around the early '90s.

Just got back from the game. It was a great victory and comforting from the start, not having to worry.

Being on the field for the flag ceremony was a feeling unlike any I've experienced. We were out there during the player intros and being in the center of the outfield with about 40,000 (at the start) and with everyone waving those towels, it was amazing. One woman who was also helping carry the flag was in tears - she said it was just great being out there, in the center of the stadium, with real Dodger fans. I got some great photos from that vantage point too.

13 - Sadly, ASU's baseball historian died in June. Otherwise, I'd ask him for details.

12

Man, I think we just renewed a big-time baseball rivalry. Do you think this will carry over into next season?

I get a kick out of how "bush league unsportsman like actions" are a show of courage, according to the East Coast. Um... I think beating the team 7-2 makes more of a statement.

14

That is AWESOME! Congratulations on getting the privilege to carry out that big flag!

I disagree Jon re. the extra security. Fights are a part of baseball. Now if it is a NASTY brawl and won't stop obviously you have to contain it, but for the most part baseball fights aren't too bad.

I'm somewhat torn by Manny's reaction to the whole third inning situation. On the one hand, I am totally in agreement with Jon and not wanting to see any escalations, any ejections, anything stupid out there. I wanna see baseball. We don't need Manny jeopardizing our chances in this series by getting ejected. But by the same token, I can't help but be impressed with his level of commitment. He's willing to mix it up, get Kuroda's back, and I gotta believe the chemistry in our locker room is at an all time high right now. Let's do this tommorrow!!! No Mercy!

18 - So you're on board with Manny getting ejected and suspended then, just for the fun of it. Because that's who was the closest to getting in trouble.

The early line for tomorrow nite is EVEN. Just a coin-flip away from an epic game 5.

Again, I'm not endorsing my idea 100 percent. I'm bringing it up for conversation more than anything. But if we don't really want the ejections, suspensions or injuries, should we do more to prevent them?

20 - From where on earth did you pull that sentiment, Jon? Seriously.
milkshakeballa disagreed with you on whether security is needed during baseball brawls, and from that you've determined whether msb doesn't care if Manny gets run?
Are you trolling your own board?

I'm not basing that assumption on our best player getting riled up and getting kicked out "for the fun of it." I'm saying, the umps can handle it, they handled it today (Manny DIDN'T get thrown and wasn't suspended), and usually the teams police themselves. Most baseball fights only have what maybe 8 or 10 people actually throwing punches...the rest of the team is trying to stop it. I'm looking throughout baseball history. These things just happen.

And I agree.....the chemistry in the locker room after the game today is probably at its best since the day before Loduca got traded.

I'm not basing that assumption on our best player getting riled up and getting kicked out "for the fun of it." I'm saying, the umps can handle it, they handled it today (Manny DIDN'T get thrown and wasn't suspended), and usually the teams police themselves. Most baseball fights only have what maybe 8 or 10 people actually throwing punches...the rest of the team is trying to stop it. I'm looking throughout baseball history. These things just happen.

And I agree.....the chemistry in the locker room after the game today is probably at its best since the day before Loduca got traded.

I think the Phillies had a plan -- and this isn't just me saying this, I heard a few scouts and Phillies reporters even wondering aloud about this -- to buzz Manny a few times, knowing he has a reputation of getting distracted, becoming temperamental if he perceives he's been purposely thrown at. I think they're trying to get inside his head, and Manny wanting to mix it up in that pseudo-brawl is perfect evidence of that. I appreciate his willingness to protect his teammates (and his own head) but think getting mixed up in a mess, a brawl, would fall right into the Phillies' trap. I think he, they, for the most part need to rise above that stuff and just play baseball. Winning games.

That said, I also agree with Jon that they had to do something, even if it's just a plunk pitch or throwing a few feet over Victorino's head. Are they supposed to get continually thrown at (Martin has been hit or thrown at at least 4 times in this series so far by my count) and take it like men? Again, it's a matter of judgment, as the umps knew pretty well, and as Martin understood (when he was later hit by that weak curveball he didn't get bent out of shape, despite Mike's Rant on the subject). But some of those others, well it adds up. Enough was enough. That's baseball. Time to move on. Don't let it get to you, Manny.

The only problem is: it's like the analogy often used in tort cases and foreseeability. To prevent an act of assault at a college campus for example, how can you really ever prevent it? Put up a Berlin Wall? Very difficult to forestall these types of things. In baseball, because there are SO many players involved, tempers escalating, and bullpens clearing, it begs the question of how many officiants/security personnel could even be enlisted to forestall these situations from inevitable escalation. I think the repercussions from the MLB are the greatest deterrent -- especially in moments such as these. As much as Manny may have been flaunting his bravado, I honestly cannot see him being stupid enough to cross that line with so much at stake.

The Brothers K at Blue Notes suggest Manny get Ozuna to DH for him in any fisticuffs. If Pablo's tossed, oh well.

I don't remember whether Ozuna's on the NLCS roster, though, which might make it hard to have that happen.

I agree Sarno. I really don't think Manny wouldn't have crossed the line. He was jut pumping his chest a little bit and letting Philly know he is pretty pissed off.

23/24 - No, it was a sincere reply. He's saying fights are a part of baseball. That's fine, but I'm not sure I'm buying that premise.

The umps "handled" it by the skin of their teeth. There's a clear choice here: leave it at 6-on-60 and hope for the best, or throw in a few friendly reinforcements and feel more secure that the best players in the game don't get suspended over some macho code.

I'm not trying to change the world and certainly not trying to demean anyone, but I feel it's a legitimate question. What's the reason for not letting security get involved? Is there a significant cost if a guy in a white polo shirt and black pants gets in between a Dodger and a Phillie?

22 I don't know what the position in America is, but i know that in the UK and Australia, professional sports people can take civil action, and have successfully done so, for violence committed on the field.

In rugby, which is a game involving constant violent physical contact, action has been taken for punches thrown by players that have caused serious injury. If someone really hurts someone with malice outside what's consented to as part of the game then that's the appropriate recourse.

But I think players must have the ability to stand up for themselves and their team mates to an extent. The game, like most good games, has an element of violence and intimidation about it: the takeout slide, the hard play at home. We don't want ice hockey, but some aggression is OK. As Crash Davis said 'fear and arrogance'.

I'd rather let players control the situation than security. If Manny is silly enough to get ejected and suspended then so be it.

26

Well said, underdog! This whole thing really is ridiculous. It's as if the Phillies knew they had weaker pitching (at least for starters), and figured they'd go with this junk to make up for it. So classless, and yet, so fitting.

30 one real problem would be if there was any violence between security and a player. Umpires know what they're about and players know the umpires. Security would run in as total strangers and try and restrain guys who are full of adrenalin. Knowing how security often are, things could get really ugly I think.

14 I was also very privileged to be on the field holding the BIG flag. It was one of the best experiences I have ever had at a Dodger game. I was a "puller" which meant I ran toward the outfield wall as the singer (who was awesome)was being announced. Having the chance just to run (fast walk) where a Major League game would be taking place was a tremendous feeling.

I got a few good pictures but my most found memories will be hearing/seeing the crowd go crazy as Manny, Martin, and Nomar were announced.

Obviously the chance to do anything on the field does not come very often, but if you ever have the chance, jump on it. It is truly and indescribable feeling.

Who do you guys think would win in a brawl between Bowa and Lopes?

35 Mariano Duncan:)

28 I like the idea of sending all of the guys in the dugout not on the playoff roster in the event of a brawl. Sweeney, I am looking for you to do some damage.

0 "knives drawn, Jets and Sharks"

actually if you were following on Fox's hot corner one of the shots was of Manny walking out of the dugout snapping and swaying from side to side

33 I agree. Those security guards are used to taking out drunk people running around not professional athletes.

cycle? (does it count if Jon is asleep?)

34 where were you on the flag? I pulled also. I was at the very front, the second person on the line. If you looked at the flag, I was on the top left corner, over the 1st star.

Well, it was just a thought...

When you're a Dodger,
You're a Dodger all the way
From your first hit-by-pitch
To your last dyin' day.

When you're a Dodger,
If the spit hits the fan,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!

{snap snap snap}

i have vague memories of an incident between a security guard and a pitcher or catcher in the bullpen at Yankee stadium a few years back?

41 I was on the opposite end. I was in right field, about 10-15 people from the corner. It was a really great experience, as I'm sure you will agree. One other benefit was the fact that we had about an hour to kill between rehearsal and "production" so I was able to check out batting practice in center field and Autograph Alley.

I also had a close up view of Kuroda and Martin warming up (separately) in the outfield before the game.

Where's Bob T? Didn't he attend the game, and shouldn't he be back by now?

46
I heard he's partying at Manny's house.

44 I remember now; Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia were involved in some unseemly incident with a Boston security guard.

47 I shoulda known.

Does anyone think the Dodgers chose Victorino because he was allegedly stealing signs from the catcher during game 1?

Wow, Plaschke and Simers sure know how to write those articles quickly! Their takes on tonight's events are posted at the LA Times web.

What a game.

I have to thank bhsportsguy for giving me a ticket and a ride - I probably owe him a kidney. And it was great to finally meet a few DTers (Jacob Burch, Eric Stephen, Bob T, dkminnick, and Bluebleeder87)!

No...I think they picked Vic because he was the guy up with 2 outs and nobody on.

"I'm not the team leader," he says, now kidding himself as well as everyone else. "I don't have a 'C' on my jersey as captain. Maybe next year."

:) Coe on back Manny! At a discount! :)

I had really hoped to see some retaliation for the sign-stealing in game 1. I think the inside pitching thing is small potatos compared to sign stealing.

By the way, I like how the Dodgers pitched Rollins inside during the at bat before Victorino's.

Lastly, what the heck did Victorino and Kuroda say to each other?

55 Victorino: "Hey bruddah, don't talk stink."

Kuroda: "So, Victorino-san. Don't stand on the plate."

55 agreed; but they've been in there on J-Roll all series because he bats really close to the plate he takes some inside strikes because they are not in his hitting zone.

A very astute from Dodger Blues:

"Can you imagine being Joe Torre in that situation? You're trying to calm your players down, looking for help from your coaches... until you realize two of your coaches are Mariano Duncan and Larry Bowa—the most mentally unstable guys in the stadium."

31 Please see:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/creed/Law/Hackbart.html

31 Please see:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/creed/Law/Hackbart.html

#33 - Blake DeWitt ... "locked in" at the plate.
The kid's a ball player sure 'nuff
Lots of clutch rbi's
Love it

51 Wow, Plaschke and Simers sure know how to write those articles quickly! Their takes on tonight's events are posted at the LA Times web.

Well, ahem, our own Jon Weisman isn't exactly a potted plant. That's quite an opus at 0 .

Inside Joe Torre's dreams tonight:

Blake DeWitt = Scott Brosius
Andre Ethier = Paul O'Neill

I hope that tonight doesn't fuel the phillies though, and that they don't take Kuroda's throw at Victorino and use back against us as bulletin board material..

I also hope we don't get too comfortable after teeing off on Moyer, because i think Blanton can be dangerous..

A win was wonderful though, and I do like our chances...I hope the Ravine is rocking and that we can keep the mojo going

I wonder if Casey Blake will be benched on Monday? He has only 1 hit in 21 at bats against Blanton. Both Nomar and Khent have had some success off Blanton

65 - Re Kent, I think you need to go with your stronger infield defense. Wait...that means Berroa starts at 2nd. Nevermind.

I like this quote from Moyer, talking about the Dodgers lineup (from today's NYT):

"To me, they're like a school of sharks, kind of on the prowl," he said. "And if you can keep — kind of keep them all separated in the pool, you know, it's a great way to go after them. But when they kind of swarm together and they see the blood in the water, I think they attack and they do a very good job of it."

http://tinyurl.com/48vjhm

In terms of security intervening, I would think that they would need them to make sure, more than ever, that the fans don't run on the field. The last thing that they need is fans going onto the field during a brawl and getting a Pacers-Pistons situation.

Nobody wants to see anybody get hurt, but with the way the Philly pitchers were keeping the Dodger hitters off balance and uncomfortable with pitches being thrown all around them, the Dodgers had every right to retaliate and make those Phils hitters just as uncomfortable. It was Bills duty to protect his teammates and he failed to do so. I'm sure he probably regrets not doing so, even if it was just to send the message that if you throw at our hitters you're going to get it right back. This would have at the very least made Philly less comfortable stepping into the batters box and might have changed the outcome of that game. Either way with the win last night the Dodgers now know it's still anybodies series and I expect them to play with more intensity.

Do you offset your carbon footprint? Well, now you can offset your infidelity, too! When you cheat on your significant other, you can neutralize your indiscretions by paying a small sum of money to Cheat Neutral, who will then use that money to pay faithful couples not to cheat. (SFW, except for the use of one word that refers both to a rooster and a part of male anatomy).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2Qwy4gYgg

All this talk about how the Dodger pitchers "should've taken care of it Friday..."

Are the Dodgers down on Billingsley for not throwing a retaliatory strike (or ball)? It sounds like the Dodgers are down on somebody specific for not throwing a brushback at the Phillies last week.

Some thoughts:

1) Jimmy Rollins has looked AWFUL all series. Like, he's completely forgotten how to swing at a baseball, or tell balls from strikes. It's just painful.

2) We should be winning every game because of this. I hate that we've pretty much contained the top of their line-up and we're down 2-1 in this series because we got killed by their 8 and 9 hitters in game 2.

3) I can see what Jon's saying, and I'm not opposed to having security on the field. I was absolutely expecting one of their mop-up relievers to throw the ball at Manny's head in retaliation for the Victorino thing just to see if he would charge the mound and take a swing--which he most certainly would have done at that point. Because if random guy gets suspended and Manny gets suspended, it's a huge plus for the Phillies.

Thing is, I don't really know if a security guard would be able to stop that. It seems like most brawls start within a couple of seconds. Assuming the guard isn't standing right there on the mound, I don't know how he stops Manny from clocking that pitcher.

Jimmy Rollins was pretty mediocre all season long. Actually, his 2007 season was really the aberation: 2008 was much more in line with the rest of his career numbers.

IMO Kemp looks very tentative at the plate. Maybe it's over coaching or maybe he doesn't have the confidence that he should, but it looks like he's afraid to really put a hurtin on the ball. I'd just like to see him take a full hard swing when he's ahead in the count instead of trying to place the ball. He's a big powerful dude and his swing should put the fear of god into the other team.

75 - edited

75. ToyCannon
It is easy to retaliate up 7-1 and throw at the head of the smallest player in the linup. Real balls shown by the Dodgers there. I guess Martin didn't want to bounce off of Howards thighs when he went to go tackle him.

Getting a ball thrown at his head and complaining about his complaining. Give me a break. That's his life and it wasn't a 84 mile an error patsy ball that hit Martin but a Kuroda fast ball. Victorino had every right to speak up. They had 3 opportunities to nail Myers in the last game and instead they gave