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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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5) discussing politics
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Big Game Hunting
2008-10-12 22:10
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The real story tonight is the Dodgers' Game 3 National League Championship Series victory, but I do have to get this out of the way. I don't really want to hear Shane Victorino complaining that Hiroki Kuroda threw at his head.

UntitledDespite being a card-carrying member of baseball's Pacifist Society, even I felt the Dodgers had to show some kind of retaliation in the third inning tonight. And the picture to the right is why.

The Dodgers had been pitched tough inside all series, but that's no sin. Among other things, Manny Ramirez had a Brett Myers pitch go behind him - but supposedly, that slipped. Okay. Then tonight, Russell Martin got hit by a Jamie Moyer pitch in the first inning, but it was a sub-80s changeup that loaded the bases. Even though a potential beanball war had been a significant topic of discussion Friday night and Saturday, Moyer is absolved.

But with this pitch that you can see to your right, enough was enough. This one was heading for Martin's chin if not his eyes, and this was the one that moved the needle beyond intimidation into something worse. This was the one that passed the limit of making excuses, to the point where it seemed clear to everyone that the Phillies did not care whether a Dodger got hurt. Paramount for the Dodgers was to win the game on the field. But until the Dodgers sent a Phillie spinning to the dirt, nothing was going to stop Philadelphia from continuing to make the Dodgers duck and cover.

I am not endorsing hitting people with pitches. I am not endorsing throwing at someone's head. But Victorino and the Phillies had no right to complain. It started with them. They don't get to throw at Martin's face and then be offended.

I'm hoping that now, it's over. While the Dodger Stadium crowd (already energized by the five-run first-inning and 6-1 lead in a critical Game 3) seemed eager to see the benches empty, I was petrified. I don't want to see players from either team ejected. I want to see baseball.

For the most part, the umpires kept the situation under control. But something occurred to me for the first time tonight as I watched those six black-suited men try to keep about 70 people at bay. In theory, major league baseball doesn't want a fight to break out. Assuming that's the case, should the sport allow stadium security to step in and help keep the combatants apart?

On first glance, this might really seem excessive. It's just a game. But I'm not talking about having bobbies with billy clubs raising cain. I'm just talking about having more people to separate the two teams, because if the fight doesn't break out in the first few seconds, it won't unless it's given the opportunity to. Tonight, there were almost too many pockets of tension for the umpires to police.

At some point, if the chaos got really out of control - you know, chairs thrown, knives drawn, Jets and Sharks – security probably would get involved. I'm just wondering about whether security should be preventative instead of reactive. (Unless, of course, baseball really doesn't mind that much if some punches get thrown.) I just would have hated to have seen ejections and suspensions - or worse, injuries - that could have been prevented. It seems awkward, maybe even untenable, especially because fighting isn't a rampant issue in baseball like it is in hockey, but I'm wondering if it would be better for the sport to have security help the umpires keep the peace.

But enough about the extracurriculars - let's talk about the Dodgers' win. After Rafael Furcal made a nice tag to help nab Chase Utley on a somewhat surprising steal attempt with Ryan Howard at bat in the top of the first inning, Furcal helped the Dodgers jump on an ineffective Jamie Moyer with a leadoff single. Andre Ethier and Manny Ramirez also singled to give the Dodgers an early lead for the third straight game, and one Nomar Garciaparra strikeout after Martin's first hit-by-pitch, Casey Blake looped one to right to score a second run.

With two out, Matt Kemp got the count to 3-0 before striking out on a pitch that was probably too close to take, but then Blake DeWitt, after being down 0-2, drove a no-doubter bases-loaded triple to right - and suddenly, the mojo of the Cubs series had returned. Every Dodger starting position player reached base, with Furcal answering the Phillies' second-inning run with a home run, his first since May.

Kuroda might have been even better tonight than he was a week ago in the NLDS clincher. He retired 13 consecutive batters from the third inning through the end of the sixth. But just like last week, he couldn't get out of the seventh. It was frustrating, because after giving up a leadoff double to Utley, Howard reached on what appeared to be a catchable fly ball that Ethier didn't get a good read on and shied away from, and then Burrell looped a weak 140-footer to cut the Dodger lead to five and bring Joe Torre out of the dugout with two runners on.

Though Cory Wade once again put out the fire, he ended up throwing 33 pitches tonight, which limits what he can bring in relief of Derek Lowe in Game 4 Monday. The Dodgers will have Hong-Chih Kuo, Clayton Kershaw, Greg Maddux and Joe Beimel to help get the game from Lowe to Broxton, so that might be sufficient, but it was just such a shame that two near-outs prevented Kuroda from cruising past the seventh.

With the home team 11-0 in Phillies-Dodgers games this year, not only Game 4 but Game 5 on Wednesday would seem to remain critical for the Dodgers. But neither game is a gimme. Though Lowe is a decent bet on three days' rest, it's hard to know what he'll bring - and his opponent, Joe Blanton, will have had a week off since pitching six innings of one-run, seven-strikeout ball in the Phillies' NLDS clincher over Milwaukee. Meanwhile, Game 5 offers a brilliant matchup between Cole Hamels and Chad Billingsley that, no matter how much one esteems Billingsley or believes in his ability to recover from his Game 2 debacle, can't remotely be painted as a lock for Los Angeles.

On the other hand, if the Dodgers manage to get the series back to Philly, things could turn in their favor. Kuroda vs. Myers in Game 6? Lowe vs. Moyer (would it still be Moyer?) in Game 7? The road is still the road, and it will be all hands on deck in Game 7 if it gets that far. However, even if the Dodgers don't sweep the Los Angeles games, I wouldn't count them out.

But the Dodgers certainly need to win at least one of their next two, and their fans will feel heeps better if a win somehow comes Monday. Things are gonna be even more intense at 5:22 p.m. tomorrow than they were today. Get your rest ...

Comments (372)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-10-12 22:25:32
1.   LogikReader
LAT'd from the last thread:

Here we go again,

East Coast ESPN (radio) condemning the Dodgers for not throwing back in Game 2. Brett Myers is now a marked man. I hate unwritten rules!

I was so fed up, I sent this email to ESPN:

"I am so sick of these stupid unwritten rules. You have to go [retaliate] with a guy in the same inning with two outs. I'm more interested in getting guys OUT. Yea Victorino isn't the best choice, but again, two outs, same inning.

For goodness sake, what do the Dodgers have to do? Throw at Chase Utley at every at bat? Get Juan Pierre to charge the mound? Get the whole team suspended by fighting the Phillies bullpen?! You can't risk losing players to ejections and suspensions. End of story."

Dodgers, don't give in to this junk... the bat is mightier than the sword!

2008-10-12 22:26:01
2.   Linkmeister
Heeps? What's Dickens got to do with this? ;)
2008-10-12 22:26:58
3.   DBrim
Manuel gets to choose Moyer or Blanton for game 7. Unless we REALLY shell Blanton tomorrow night, I'd expect to see him in game 7.

In my mind, tomorrow is a must-win with Hamels going on Wednesday. That game is not necessarily a must-win, but it'd really take the wind out of the Phillies' sails if we could take that one. Bills'll have a real shot for redemption in that game.

2008-10-12 22:27:42
4.   Branch Rickey
This reminds me... things are all good so I hate to bring up a negative but Ethier failing to move on that ball in the 7th made me crazy. I realize you can't let that ball get by you but that one was entirely catchable. He has been way too timid on line drives hit in front of him for quite a while now. It seems like last year he made several sliding catches on balls in front of him and then one got by him. Ever since then he has frozen on any ball hit in front of him. It looks to be some mental block and I wish he would break through it. That could have been a big inning.
2008-10-12 22:27:45
5.   Eric Stephen
What a good game tonight! It was nice to see the Orel ovation in addition to the Lasorda and Fernando ones. I really enjoyed that Davey Lopes completed the infield throwing out the first pitches tonight too.

I was at the game with my brother and niece, as well as Jacob Burch. We had a great time. I also had the pleasure of meeting sporky, as well as seeing bhsportsguy and dkminnick.

I hate to continue beating the Journey drum, but a funny moment happened when I told my brother Broxton would be even more effective if he had entrance music. I suggested the theme from Jaws, but about 1.2 seconds after the bullpen gates opened Don't Stop Believin' blared through the loud speakers. It was a total coincidence, but I thought it hilarious.

The good tidings continue tomorrow night. My collection of rally towels is growing by leaps and bounds this fall!

2008-10-12 22:27:48
6.   Linkmeister
LAT'd:

Pitchers born in Japan, from Baseball Reference:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3wds2n

I didn't click on each one to see if they'd pitched with the Dodgers.

2008-10-12 22:29:33
7.   DBrim
Accuscore has us as 66/34 favorites for tomorrow.
2008-10-12 22:31:02
8.   Jon Weisman
4 - The thing is, you can let that ball get by you. With a six-run lead, I'm willing to risk Howard getting an extra base or two if it gives me a good shot at getting an out.

If he didn't see it, that's one thing, but if he was being conservative in that situation, I'd rather he wasn't.

2008-10-12 22:32:07
9.   Eric Stephen
4
I haven't seen any replays, but on first view I didn't think Ethier had a chance on that play. I could be wrong of course, but I thought Ethier was just trying to trick the runner into thinking it could be caught.
2008-10-12 22:32:39
10.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
IIRC, about 20 years ago, there was a Southern Cal-Arizona State baseball game in Tempe in which a massive brawl broke out. It was so out of control, state troopers (on-campus security) were called to the stadium to restore order.
2008-10-12 22:34:51
11.   Branch Rickey
8. Actually, you're right. You need outs and you can risk extra base hits to get them. Same reason you can throw a fastball strike to Ryan Howard in the same situation. If it were an isolated incident I'd chalk it up to getting fooled off the bat or the lights but it seems to be a trend with him.
2008-10-12 22:34:59
12.   underdog
Jon's post here throws over the head of this one, which had it coming:

http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1159356.html

;-)

2008-10-12 22:35:03
13.   Jon Weisman
10 - Yeah, I remember that, and I do think it was around the early '90s.
2008-10-12 22:37:40
14.   JJ42
Just got back from the game. It was a great victory and comforting from the start, not having to worry.

Being on the field for the flag ceremony was a feeling unlike any I've experienced. We were out there during the player intros and being in the center of the outfield with about 40,000 (at the start) and with everyone waving those towels, it was amazing. One woman who was also helping carry the flag was in tears - she said it was just great being out there, in the center of the stadium, with real Dodger fans. I got some great photos from that vantage point too.

2008-10-12 22:40:07
15.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
13 - Sadly, ASU's baseball historian died in June. Otherwise, I'd ask him for details.
2008-10-12 22:42:13
16.   LogikReader
12

Man, I think we just renewed a big-time baseball rivalry. Do you think this will carry over into next season?

I get a kick out of how "bush league unsportsman like actions" are a show of courage, according to the East Coast. Um... I think beating the team 7-2 makes more of a statement.

2008-10-12 22:43:33
17.   LogikReader
14

That is AWESOME! Congratulations on getting the privilege to carry out that big flag!

2008-10-12 22:50:35
18.   milkshakeballa
I disagree Jon re. the extra security. Fights are a part of baseball. Now if it is a NASTY brawl and won't stop obviously you have to contain it, but for the most part baseball fights aren't too bad.
2008-10-12 22:52:27
19.   JRSarno
I'm somewhat torn by Manny's reaction to the whole third inning situation. On the one hand, I am totally in agreement with Jon and not wanting to see any escalations, any ejections, anything stupid out there. I wanna see baseball. We don't need Manny jeopardizing our chances in this series by getting ejected. But by the same token, I can't help but be impressed with his level of commitment. He's willing to mix it up, get Kuroda's back, and I gotta believe the chemistry in our locker room is at an all time high right now. Let's do this tommorrow!!! No Mercy!
2008-10-12 22:52:33
20.   Jon Weisman
18 - So you're on board with Manny getting ejected and suspended then, just for the fun of it. Because that's who was the closest to getting in trouble.
2008-10-12 22:52:54
21.   bigcpa
The early line for tomorrow nite is EVEN. Just a coin-flip away from an epic game 5.
2008-10-12 22:54:13
22.   Jon Weisman
Again, I'm not endorsing my idea 100 percent. I'm bringing it up for conversation more than anything. But if we don't really want the ejections, suspensions or injuries, should we do more to prevent them?
2008-10-12 22:56:19
23.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
20 - From where on earth did you pull that sentiment, Jon? Seriously.
milkshakeballa disagreed with you on whether security is needed during baseball brawls, and from that you've determined whether msb doesn't care if Manny gets run?
Are you trolling your own board?
2008-10-12 22:56:41
24.   milkshakeballa
I'm not basing that assumption on our best player getting riled up and getting kicked out "for the fun of it." I'm saying, the umps can handle it, they handled it today (Manny DIDN'T get thrown and wasn't suspended), and usually the teams police themselves. Most baseball fights only have what maybe 8 or 10 people actually throwing punches...the rest of the team is trying to stop it. I'm looking throughout baseball history. These things just happen.

And I agree.....the chemistry in the locker room after the game today is probably at its best since the day before Loduca got traded.

2008-10-12 22:57:19
25.   milkshakeballa
I'm not basing that assumption on our best player getting riled up and getting kicked out "for the fun of it." I'm saying, the umps can handle it, they handled it today (Manny DIDN'T get thrown and wasn't suspended), and usually the teams police themselves. Most baseball fights only have what maybe 8 or 10 people actually throwing punches...the rest of the team is trying to stop it. I'm looking throughout baseball history. These things just happen.

And I agree.....the chemistry in the locker room after the game today is probably at its best since the day before Loduca got traded.

2008-10-12 23:00:17
26.   underdog
I think the Phillies had a plan -- and this isn't just me saying this, I heard a few scouts and Phillies reporters even wondering aloud about this -- to buzz Manny a few times, knowing he has a reputation of getting distracted, becoming temperamental if he perceives he's been purposely thrown at. I think they're trying to get inside his head, and Manny wanting to mix it up in that pseudo-brawl is perfect evidence of that. I appreciate his willingness to protect his teammates (and his own head) but think getting mixed up in a mess, a brawl, would fall right into the Phillies' trap. I think he, they, for the most part need to rise above that stuff and just play baseball. Winning games.

That said, I also agree with Jon that they had to do something, even if it's just a plunk pitch or throwing a few feet over Victorino's head. Are they supposed to get continually thrown at (Martin has been hit or thrown at at least 4 times in this series so far by my count) and take it like men? Again, it's a matter of judgment, as the umps knew pretty well, and as Martin understood (when he was later hit by that weak curveball he didn't get bent out of shape, despite Mike's Rant on the subject). But some of those others, well it adds up. Enough was enough. That's baseball. Time to move on. Don't let it get to you, Manny.

2008-10-12 23:00:44
27.   JRSarno
The only problem is: it's like the analogy often used in tort cases and foreseeability. To prevent an act of assault at a college campus for example, how can you really ever prevent it? Put up a Berlin Wall? Very difficult to forestall these types of things. In baseball, because there are SO many players involved, tempers escalating, and bullpens clearing, it begs the question of how many officiants/security personnel could even be enlisted to forestall these situations from inevitable escalation. I think the repercussions from the MLB are the greatest deterrent -- especially in moments such as these. As much as Manny may have been flaunting his bravado, I honestly cannot see him being stupid enough to cross that line with so much at stake.
2008-10-12 23:04:58
28.   Linkmeister
The Brothers K at Blue Notes suggest Manny get Ozuna to DH for him in any fisticuffs. If Pablo's tossed, oh well.

I don't remember whether Ozuna's on the NLCS roster, though, which might make it hard to have that happen.

2008-10-12 23:05:05
29.   milkshakeballa
I agree Sarno. I really don't think Manny wouldn't have crossed the line. He was jut pumping his chest a little bit and letting Philly know he is pretty pissed off.
2008-10-12 23:05:33
30.   Jon Weisman
23/24 - No, it was a sincere reply. He's saying fights are a part of baseball. That's fine, but I'm not sure I'm buying that premise.

The umps "handled" it by the skin of their teeth. There's a clear choice here: leave it at 6-on-60 and hope for the best, or throw in a few friendly reinforcements and feel more secure that the best players in the game don't get suspended over some macho code.

I'm not trying to change the world and certainly not trying to demean anyone, but I feel it's a legitimate question. What's the reason for not letting security get involved? Is there a significant cost if a guy in a white polo shirt and black pants gets in between a Dodger and a Phillie?

2008-10-12 23:06:12
31.   Lee Corbett
22 I don't know what the position in America is, but i know that in the UK and Australia, professional sports people can take civil action, and have successfully done so, for violence committed on the field.

In rugby, which is a game involving constant violent physical contact, action has been taken for punches thrown by players that have caused serious injury. If someone really hurts someone with malice outside what's consented to as part of the game then that's the appropriate recourse.

But I think players must have the ability to stand up for themselves and their team mates to an extent. The game, like most good games, has an element of violence and intimidation about it: the takeout slide, the hard play at home. We don't want ice hockey, but some aggression is OK. As Crash Davis said 'fear and arrogance'.

I'd rather let players control the situation than security. If Manny is silly enough to get ejected and suspended then so be it.

2008-10-12 23:09:10
32.   LogikReader
26

Well said, underdog! This whole thing really is ridiculous. It's as if the Phillies knew they had weaker pitching (at least for starters), and figured they'd go with this junk to make up for it. So classless, and yet, so fitting.

2008-10-12 23:10:31
33.   Lee Corbett
30 one real problem would be if there was any violence between security and a player. Umpires know what they're about and players know the umpires. Security would run in as total strangers and try and restrain guys who are full of adrenalin. Knowing how security often are, things could get really ugly I think.
2008-10-12 23:10:48
34.   ibleedbloo
14 I was also very privileged to be on the field holding the BIG flag. It was one of the best experiences I have ever had at a Dodger game. I was a "puller" which meant I ran toward the outfield wall as the singer (who was awesome)was being announced. Having the chance just to run (fast walk) where a Major League game would be taking place was a tremendous feeling.

I got a few good pictures but my most found memories will be hearing/seeing the crowd go crazy as Manny, Martin, and Nomar were announced.

Obviously the chance to do anything on the field does not come very often, but if you ever have the chance, jump on it. It is truly and indescribable feeling.

2008-10-12 23:11:08
35.   jasonungar07
Who do you guys think would win in a brawl between Bowa and Lopes?
2008-10-12 23:14:41
36.   Lexinthedena
35 Mariano Duncan:)
2008-10-12 23:15:16
37.   arborial
28 I like the idea of sending all of the guys in the dugout not on the playoff roster in the event of a brawl. Sweeney, I am looking for you to do some damage.
2008-10-12 23:16:21
38.   arborial
0 "knives drawn, Jets and Sharks"

actually if you were following on Fox's hot corner one of the shots was of Manny walking out of the dugout snapping and swaying from side to side

2008-10-12 23:17:23
39.   arborial
33 I agree. Those security guards are used to taking out drunk people running around not professional athletes.
2008-10-12 23:18:04
40.   arborial
cycle? (does it count if Jon is asleep?)
2008-10-12 23:18:12
41.   JJ42
34 where were you on the flag? I pulled also. I was at the very front, the second person on the line. If you looked at the flag, I was on the top left corner, over the 1st star.
2008-10-12 23:20:29
42.   Jon Weisman
Well, it was just a thought...
2008-10-12 23:23:48
43.   underdog
When you're a Dodger,
You're a Dodger all the way
From your first hit-by-pitch
To your last dyin' day.

When you're a Dodger,
If the spit hits the fan,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!

{snap snap snap}

2008-10-12 23:30:53
44.   Lee Corbett
i have vague memories of an incident between a security guard and a pitcher or catcher in the bullpen at Yankee stadium a few years back?
2008-10-12 23:33:04
45.   ibleedbloo
41 I was on the opposite end. I was in right field, about 10-15 people from the corner. It was a really great experience, as I'm sure you will agree. One other benefit was the fact that we had about an hour to kill between rehearsal and "production" so I was able to check out batting practice in center field and Autograph Alley.

I also had a close up view of Kuroda and Martin warming up (separately) in the outfield before the game.

2008-10-12 23:35:56
46.   Linkmeister
Where's Bob T? Didn't he attend the game, and shouldn't he be back by now?
2008-10-12 23:38:02
47.   Eric Stephen
46
I heard he's partying at Manny's house.
2008-10-12 23:39:37
48.   Lee Corbett
44 I remember now; Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia were involved in some unseemly incident with a Boston security guard.
2008-10-12 23:39:43
49.   Linkmeister
47 I shoulda known.
2008-10-12 23:46:05
50.   caseybarker
Does anyone think the Dodgers chose Victorino because he was allegedly stealing signs from the catcher during game 1?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-10-12 23:46:10
51.   LogikReader
Wow, Plaschke and Simers sure know how to write those articles quickly! Their takes on tonight's events are posted at the LA Times web.
2008-10-12 23:48:22
52.   sporky
What a game.

I have to thank bhsportsguy for giving me a ticket and a ride - I probably owe him a kidney. And it was great to finally meet a few DTers (Jacob Burch, Eric Stephen, Bob T, dkminnick, and Bluebleeder87)!

2008-10-12 23:51:03
53.   milkshakeballa
No...I think they picked Vic because he was the guy up with 2 outs and nobody on.
2008-10-12 23:54:59
54.   milkshakeballa
"I'm not the team leader," he says, now kidding himself as well as everyone else. "I don't have a 'C' on my jersey as captain. Maybe next year."

:) Coe on back Manny! At a discount! :)

2008-10-12 23:57:11
55.   caseybarker
I had really hoped to see some retaliation for the sign-stealing in game 1. I think the inside pitching thing is small potatos compared to sign stealing.

By the way, I like how the Dodgers pitched Rollins inside during the at bat before Victorino's.

Lastly, what the heck did Victorino and Kuroda say to each other?

2008-10-12 23:58:26
56.   Linkmeister
55 Victorino: "Hey bruddah, don't talk stink."

Kuroda: "So, Victorino-san. Don't stand on the plate."

2008-10-13 00:00:52
57.   Lee Corbett
55 agreed; but they've been in there on J-Roll all series because he bats really close to the plate he takes some inside strikes because they are not in his hitting zone.
2008-10-13 00:05:32
58.   ryu
A very astute from Dodger Blues:

"Can you imagine being Joe Torre in that situation? You're trying to calm your players down, looking for help from your coaches... until you realize two of your coaches are Mariano Duncan and Larry Bowa—the most mentally unstable guys in the stadium."

2008-10-13 00:09:36
59.   PDH5204
31 Please see:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/creed/Law/Hackbart.html

2008-10-13 00:10:49
60.   PDH5204
31 Please see:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/creed/Law/Hackbart.html

2008-10-13 00:12:10
61.   68elcamino427
#33 - Blake DeWitt ... "locked in" at the plate.
The kid's a ball player sure 'nuff
Lots of clutch rbi's
Love it
2008-10-13 00:30:05
62.   dzzrtRatt
51 Wow, Plaschke and Simers sure know how to write those articles quickly! Their takes on tonight's events are posted at the LA Times web.

Well, ahem, our own Jon Weisman isn't exactly a potted plant. That's quite an opus at 0 .

2008-10-13 00:32:00
63.   dzzrtRatt
Inside Joe Torre's dreams tonight:

Blake DeWitt = Scott Brosius
Andre Ethier = Paul O'Neill

2008-10-13 01:12:29
64.   LoneStar7
I hope that tonight doesn't fuel the phillies though, and that they don't take Kuroda's throw at Victorino and use back against us as bulletin board material..

I also hope we don't get too comfortable after teeing off on Moyer, because i think Blanton can be dangerous..

A win was wonderful though, and I do like our chances...I hope the Ravine is rocking and that we can keep the mojo going

2008-10-13 02:28:05
65.   Sammy Maudlin
I wonder if Casey Blake will be benched on Monday? He has only 1 hit in 21 at bats against Blanton. Both Nomar and Khent have had some success off Blanton
2008-10-13 06:07:10
66.   Bob Hendley
65 - Re Kent, I think you need to go with your stronger infield defense. Wait...that means Berroa starts at 2nd. Nevermind.
2008-10-13 06:27:09
67.   Johnny Nucleo
I like this quote from Moyer, talking about the Dodgers lineup (from today's NYT):

"To me, they're like a school of sharks, kind of on the prowl," he said. "And if you can keep — kind of keep them all separated in the pool, you know, it's a great way to go after them. But when they kind of swarm together and they see the blood in the water, I think they attack and they do a very good job of it."

http://tinyurl.com/48vjhm

2008-10-13 06:41:35
68.   DodgersInMaryland
In terms of security intervening, I would think that they would need them to make sure, more than ever, that the fans don't run on the field. The last thing that they need is fans going onto the field during a brawl and getting a Pacers-Pistons situation.
2008-10-13 07:18:03
69.   Dodger Dawg
Nobody wants to see anybody get hurt, but with the way the Philly pitchers were keeping the Dodger hitters off balance and uncomfortable with pitches being thrown all around them, the Dodgers had every right to retaliate and make those Phils hitters just as uncomfortable. It was Bills duty to protect his teammates and he failed to do so. I'm sure he probably regrets not doing so, even if it was just to send the message that if you throw at our hitters you're going to get it right back. This would have at the very least made Philly less comfortable stepping into the batters box and might have changed the outcome of that game. Either way with the win last night the Dodgers now know it's still anybodies series and I expect them to play with more intensity.
2008-10-13 07:18:21
70.   D4P
Do you offset your carbon footprint? Well, now you can offset your infidelity, too! When you cheat on your significant other, you can neutralize your indiscretions by paying a small sum of money to Cheat Neutral, who will then use that money to pay faithful couples not to cheat. (SFW, except for the use of one word that refers both to a rooster and a part of male anatomy).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2Qwy4gYgg

2008-10-13 07:22:47
71.   Terry A
All this talk about how the Dodger pitchers "should've taken care of it Friday..."

Are the Dodgers down on Billingsley for not throwing a retaliatory strike (or ball)? It sounds like the Dodgers are down on somebody specific for not throwing a brushback at the Phillies last week.

2008-10-13 07:35:14
72.   MollyKnight
Some thoughts:

1) Jimmy Rollins has looked AWFUL all series. Like, he's completely forgotten how to swing at a baseball, or tell balls from strikes. It's just painful.

2) We should be winning every game because of this. I hate that we've pretty much contained the top of their line-up and we're down 2-1 in this series because we got killed by their 8 and 9 hitters in game 2.

3) I can see what Jon's saying, and I'm not opposed to having security on the field. I was absolutely expecting one of their mop-up relievers to throw the ball at Manny's head in retaliation for the Victorino thing just to see if he would charge the mound and take a swing--which he most certainly would have done at that point. Because if random guy gets suspended and Manny gets suspended, it's a huge plus for the Phillies.

Thing is, I don't really know if a security guard would be able to stop that. It seems like most brawls start within a couple of seconds. Assuming the guard isn't standing right there on the mound, I don't know how he stops Manny from clocking that pitcher.

2008-10-13 07:41:17
73.   D4P
Jimmy Rollins was pretty mediocre all season long. Actually, his 2007 season was really the aberation: 2008 was much more in line with the rest of his career numbers.
2008-10-13 07:46:53
74.   Dodger Dawg
IMO Kemp looks very tentative at the plate. Maybe it's over coaching or maybe he doesn't have the confidence that he should, but it looks like he's afraid to really put a hurtin on the ball. I'd just like to see him take a full hard swing when he's ahead in the count instead of trying to place the ball. He's a big powerful dude and his swing should put the fear of god into the other team.
2008-10-13 08:01:34
76.   Jon Weisman
75 - edited

75. ToyCannon
It is easy to retaliate up 7-1 and throw at the head of the smallest player in the linup. Real balls shown by the Dodgers there. I guess Martin didn't want to bounce off of Howards thighs when he went to go tackle him.

Getting a ball thrown at his head and complaining about his complaining. Give me a break. That's his life and it wasn't a 84 mile an error patsy ball that hit Martin but a Kuroda fast ball. Victorino had every right to speak up. They had 3 opportunities to nail Myers in the last game and instead they gave up three hits. This is the NL not the AL where if you want to respond to a message, reply to the people responsible in the 1st place.

2008-10-13 08:20:57
77.   Esquinazo
75 /76 ... They had 3 opportunities to nail Myers in the last game and instead they gave up three hits. ...

Bingo.

That's the take-away point for tonight's game.

Myers is a good pitcher who uses intimidation as a part of his repertoire. He got a free pass.

Blanton is a so-so pitcher who uses intimidation to compensate for his other issues.

The onus is on the Phillies to knock it off.

2008-10-13 08:37:05
78.   Sam DC
Do we get warnings before the first pitch tonight?

Do we get James Loney tonight?

2008-10-13 08:43:28
79.   kinbote
I think it's squashed. Let's play ball.
2008-10-13 08:52:19
80.   MollyKnight
Maybe Billz was worried that if he threw at Myers he'd get tossed. Does there always have to be a warning beforehand?
2008-10-13 08:56:34
81.   cargill06
80 I can't believe people are trying to imply he should run the risk of hitting a guy who hit .071 in the regular season, in a game where you're down 0-1. That's just crazy.
2008-10-13 08:56:46
82.   regfairfield
Yeah, I really don't think you can complain about Victorino, he handled it as well as he could have. "You can hit me, just not in the head" seems like a very reasonable request.
2008-10-13 08:57:06
83.   Jim Hitchcock
...and their fans will feel heeps better...

An under the radar Danny Heep reference!

2008-10-13 08:58:20
84.   Terry A
80 - That was my thinking on Billz' defense. As bad as he was in Game 2, he's still not somebody we want serving a suspension instead of starting Game 5. I think the Dodgers handled it about as well as these things can be handled. We definitely do not want a starter suspended, and our least valuable reliever, Greg Maddux, doesn't throw hard enough to send the right message. [smiley]
2008-10-13 08:59:29
85.   regfairfield
If baseball had goons, none of this would be an issue.
2008-10-13 09:02:37
86.   ishXdavid
I think extra stadium security would be excessive only because baseball fights, more often than not, are more comical than dangerous. Every now and then you'll get your classic Nolan Ryan beatdown of Robin Ventura, but ballplayers are more likely to get injured sneezing, washing a truck, carrying deer meat, falling asleep in a tanning bed, or playing Guitar Hero.
2008-10-13 09:02:49
87.   I Heard Ron Cey to Steve Howe Davey Lopes
Is there any word on Romero? I remember Vin saying something about his doing a little jig after striking out Ethier to end the 8th inning, and turning an ankle in the process. Why in the world would he be celebrating at a time like that?
2008-10-13 09:04:12
88.   ishXdavid
The Dodgers are upset with Bills for not sticking up for them. It's something WE cannot comprehend because while we sit at our computers commenting on the game, they're the ones PLAYING it.
2008-10-13 09:05:36
89.   ishXdavid
The Dodgers are upset with Bills for not sticking up for them. It's something WE cannot comprehend because while we sit at our computers commenting on the game, they're the ones PLAYING it.
2008-10-13 09:08:49
90.   ishXdavid
85

That's funny. My father, with his infinite hatred for all things Boston, wondered aloud why in the Florida where there are goons aplenty, aren't the Red Sox getting beat up at their hotels. I think he was serious too.

2008-10-13 09:09:35
91.   Johnny Nucleo
85 Exactly. We should have made a roster spot available for Marty McSorely.
2008-10-13 09:14:05
92.   Jim Hitchcock
86 You left out closing a car door on your hand :)
2008-10-13 09:17:18
93.   ishXdavid
[92}

apparently, I also left out "celebrating a strikeout down 5 runs in the 8th inning". Shades of Bill Gramatica...

2008-10-13 09:17:33
94.   Branch Rickey
87 Don't know if they showed that on TV but he definitely walked off the field with a serious limp. It looked to me like he was celebrating but when he started grimacing and limping I wasn't sure if the jig was one of pain or if he hurt himself doing a happy dance. If it was the latter... my most sincere HAW HAW.
2008-10-13 09:19:09
95.   Jon Weisman
My point is that Victorino should make his justified complaint to his teammate who threw at Martin's head.
2008-10-13 09:25:12
96.   Eric Stephen
I think we are all missing the point here, which is that Kevin from The Office was at the game last night.

It's amazing that he's able to go out by himself and be such a functioning part of society. :)

2008-10-13 09:26:55
97.   JoeyP
I dont really think there's a need for "sticking up for your teammates".

If a Dodger gets hit, he should be happy about it because he gets to go down to 1st base. He doesnt make an out. Thats a good AB.

Meanwhile, it doesnt make much sense IMO to have the Dodger pitcher hit guys & put the other team on base.

I also dont think any batter should make a fuss about being hit, or being nearly hit. Baseball pitchers have the right to throw any pitch in any direction. Thats what batters helmets are for.

2008-10-13 09:27:17
98.   Jon Weisman
96 - So true!
2008-10-13 09:30:10
99.   D4P
97 - So true!
2008-10-13 09:31:07
100.   Eric L
97 Except getting hit with a baseball freaking hurts. I've taken some pretty good shots while umpiring youth games. I can't imagine what it feels like to be hit with a pitch in the 90s.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-10-13 09:31:28
101.   Bob Timmermann
And Brian Baumgartner had his name spelled correctly on DiamondVision, while last year they put up "Hayden Paniteri."

The Phillies have fewer Hollywood celebrity fans, although it would be interesting to see if the two most notable Phillies fans: Ben Bernanke and Samuel Alito would show up on the video board.

But both guys are a bit busy now.

2008-10-13 09:31:35
102.   Eric Stephen
97
You're right, the robots on the field should only strive to achieve the prime directive.
2008-10-13 09:32:21
103.   D4P
101
I went to grade school with a Brian Baumgartner...To whom do you refer...?
2008-10-13 09:32:25
104.   gibsonhobbs88
To the Phillies: You can't have your cake and eat it too!! By going after our catcher and Kuroda's battery mate Russell Martin, is when they went too far. The Dodgers finally retailiated the next inning but did it when there was the least likely chance of sparking a rally with 2 outs and no one on base. If anything, that pitch was so far over his head, it had no chance of hitting him. It was a message pitch without the intention of hitting the man.

* The Phillies didn't relaize the Dodgers secret weapon last night: My wife and I in the stands! We are now 10-0 in games we have attended this year alone. We are just 2-3 when going with friends and/or groups. Just the two of us went last night running our record to 10-0. We can't make it tonight, hopefully Lowe and company can do it without us! We are trying to get tickets for Wednesday thinking the Dodgers will need all the help they can get against Hamels and Co. on Wednesday.

2008-10-13 09:34:06
105.   Eric L
Oh, and I just wanted to give big props to the fan that flipped off a couple of kids in Phillies hats last night in the parking lot. Good job staying classy and all!
2008-10-13 09:35:15
106.   Eric Stephen
103
See 96
2008-10-13 09:35:16
107.   D4P
the Dodgers will need all the help they can get against Hamels and Co

The Phillies's starting pitching really is remarkably bad outside of Hamels, especially for a team that won 92 games and finished in first place.

2008-10-13 09:35:22
108.   arborial
With all of this talk of Baseball brawls I am surprised nobody has brought up the Chan Ho flying kick of years gone by. Coming all the way from the bullpen he would get a really good running start.
2008-10-13 09:36:02
109.   JoeyP
102- If all ballplayers were like Carlos Quentin, the game would be better. Thats true.
2008-10-13 09:36:17
110.   D4P
106
Oh. He doesn't appear to be "my" Brian Baumgartner.
2008-10-13 09:37:50
111.   underdog
This was Tony Jackson's take on that, FWIW (from last night's post):

>>I feel bad for Chad Billingsley. He is a great kid and a great pitcher who has been caught in the middle of something that frankly isn't his fault, and for some reason, Fox kept showing tight shots of him in the Dodgers' dugout tonight during a game he wasn't even involved in other than as a supportive teammate. Yes, he should have retaliated in Game 2 for what happened to Martin and Manny. But no, he didn't commit some sort of affront to all that is sacred about this grand, old game. This stuff appears to be over now, and this series appears to be shaping up as one for the ages.<<

2008-10-13 09:39:27
112.   underdog
For just a brief while, when I first heard the rumor that someone from the Office was responsible for Fire Joe Morgan, I kept imagining it was Brian Baumgartner for some reason. I still picture that being how all their bloggers look, even though it isn't.
2008-10-13 09:40:08
113.   Bob Timmermann
The Phillies should have thrown at Jeff Kent. He's 40! He's a man! He can take it!
2008-10-13 09:40:11
114.   D4P
this series appears to be shaping up as one for the ages

Because the home team won each of the first 3 games, in non-dramatic fashion...? Sheesh. Someone's easily excited.

2008-10-13 09:40:37
115.   Harold M Johnson
That was a fun, fun time out at the stadium last night. In a general sense, the Dodgers had to retaliate against the Phillies obvious attempts to intimidate the Dodgers over the past 2 games. The particulars in this case aren't important other then Kuroda doing a brilliant job of backing Victorino up, but then getting him out. The Dodgers were too smart to actually put him on base, got to love that.
2008-10-13 09:40:52
116.   underdog
But Ken Tremendous = Mose Schrute, which is funny enough.
2008-10-13 09:40:54
117.   Jacob L
I'm sure I'm not the first to mentioned this, but I want to "thank" all of the fans on the field level in the infield who beat the traffic last night. Glad you all able to get home by 9ish.
2008-10-13 09:41:04
118.   D4P
113
Right on, pardner. Jeff Kent takes more punishment washing his truck.
2008-10-13 09:41:30
119.   JJ42
Hey all, can't go to the game tonight so if anyone wants my tickets, let me know. They're in Loge 161 Row L. I'm selling them below what I paid for them $150 for both - email me at jjlacs at hotmail dot com. I can email them to you. Thanks and sorry for the commercial.
2008-10-13 09:41:51
120.   underdog
114 He probably didn't have any elevator issues for a couple of days so he's in a good mood. Anyway, hey, I'll take it - better than him pronouncing the Dodgers dead melodramatically.
2008-10-13 09:43:35
121.   cargill06
111 That's the thing I'm worried about, I really hope Chad hasn't lost the respect of a lot of his teammates.
2008-10-13 09:45:13
122.   Eric Stephen
121
It's nothing a strong 7 innings Wednesday can't cure.
2008-10-13 09:45:42
123.   Harold M Johnson
121 I doubt that's the case, but coming up big on Wednesday will be more important then anything else.
2008-10-13 09:46:06
124.   underdog
I hope no one has been affected by that fire near LA this morning. Sounds bad. Hope the game isn't too smokey tonight, too. Crazy fire up here overnight, too, on Angel Island of all places, put a lot of ash in the air. Damn those Santa Anas.
2008-10-13 09:46:35
125.   Eric L
121 I'm not sure that Chad was around long enough to throw any beanballs at people.
2008-10-13 09:47:39
126.   underdog
Dear Fox,
Please don't have Mary Hart read the Dodgers line-up ever again.

Sincerely,
All Dodger Fans outside of the Hart fanily

2008-10-13 09:48:24
127.   cargill06
I didn't get a chance to watch the game until the 6th. Did he ever have a chance to retaliate at Howard, Utley, Burrell with a base open? You can't throw at Myers unless you have a huge lead that's just insanity if you want him to do that.
2008-10-13 09:49:19
128.   Eric Stephen
I don't know if this was brought up the other night, but David Price on Saturday got his first major league postseason win, despite not having a regular season win to his credit.

Shades of K-Rod (5 postseason wins in 2002).

2008-10-13 09:51:05
129.   Eric Stephen
126
Did Mary have a hard time delivering the lineup? I didn't see it.

She probably should have dropped a Troy from WV reference; that's comedy gold.

2008-10-13 09:51:24
130.   das411
85 - Somewhere Kevin Mitchell's sixth sense goes off...

107 - oo good one, my turn:

"The Dodgers' offense really is remarkably bad outside of Manny, especially for a team that won 84 games and finished in first place."

Also, tonight, how many innings does Lowe have to go before we can start speculating about starting Kershaw over Billz in Game 5?

2008-10-13 09:51:24
131.   ishXdavid
113

Bravo! Well played.

2008-10-13 09:51:33
132.   underdog
127 No, he was barely in the game at all, not long enough to retaliate, and certainly not while he was struggling with control. It makes zero sense.
2008-10-13 09:52:33
133.   underdog
129 No, she just wasn't interesting at all. And... she's Mary Hart! They got Danny DeVito and we got Mary Hart.
2008-10-13 09:53:51
134.   Jon Weisman
Actually, I was pretty impressed by how many fans stayed past the end of the game to celebrate just winning Game 3.
2008-10-13 09:54:09
135.   underdog
130 Eh, it's sorta true. Except their offense - statistically - was NOT just Manny for the last two months of the season. If it was, they still wouldn't have made the playoffs. Clearly he is far and away their best offensive player though, so I guess the analogy sort of works. Also I personally think Myers is a pretty good pitcher, too, the 2nd half of this season, though he doesn't scare me like Hamels does.
2008-10-13 09:57:55
136.   D4P
The Dodgers' offense really is remarkably bad outside of Manny, especially for a team that won 84 games and finished in first place.

I have no intention of defending the Dodgers, but this doesn't really compute. LA had the 15th best record in the MLB, and (arguably) the best pitching staff. Why would anyone expect, then, that their offense would be good?

One wouldn't. One would almost inevitably conclude that their offense must have been pretty bad, which, in fact, it was.

2008-10-13 10:00:13
137.   cargill06
Also, tonight, how many innings does Lowe have to go before we can start speculating about starting Kershaw over Billz in Game 5?

I don't think anyone's that foolish.

2008-10-13 10:09:23
138.   Jim Hitchcock
124 You get Santa Ana's in SF? I did not know that.
2008-10-13 10:09:33
139.   cargill06
What's with that weird toe dance thing that Loney is doing with his front foot lately while hitting? I wonder what the purpose is behind it, maybe to help him stay back? I don't think that's a problem for him since he sprays the ball around pretty well.
2008-10-13 10:10:25
140.   Bob Timmermann
136
Chip Caray would be very disappointed in the Dodgers team OPS with two outs.

I hate disappointing Chip Caray.

2008-10-13 10:10:58
141.   Rob M
Sorry if this has been posted already, but Manny's career numbers off Blanton: 14 for 25 - 1.320 career OPS. This year he's 6 for 13 with a HR.
2008-10-13 10:13:02
142.   whodat807
0 Great post, Jon. I couldn't believe Victorino had the gall to yell at Kuroda about throwing at his head when the Phillies have been throwing at our players all series. I don't like headhunting, but the irrationally angry part of me loved it when Kuroda sailed one over his head.

I took issue with how the Sportscenter guys (I know, what a surprise) made light of Manny's enthusiastic response - after all, he had a ball thrown behind him in game 2, it seems to me he had reason to be steamed. Thank God that someone was there to hold him back, though.

Btw, I've been moving and internet-less the past few days (and living without Dodger Thoughts during the NLCS is a terrible, terrible ordeal), but I can't stand how Tim McCarver calls out Manny for being despicable, but says not a word about Brett Myers, who is a scum bag of the highest order.

2008-10-13 10:16:20
143.   dzzrtRatt
Mary Hart should feel bad she didn't throw at Shane Victorino.
2008-10-13 10:17:03
144.   Kevin Lewis
Not much to add to this conversation...all angles have been covered.

So, did anyone notice the Reserve Level section right behind home plate? It was practically empty all night. Was it reserved for the extra press? The few people sitting there seemed to be dressed more formally than the rest of the crowd.

2008-10-13 10:18:38
145.   ishXdavid
139

The only thing I can think of is that it's a timing mechanism.

2008-10-13 10:20:14
146.   Bob Timmermann
144
Section 5 is the auxiliary press box.
2008-10-13 10:21:50
147.   dzzrtRatt
Re: Billz. In these situations, does the manager or pitching coach play a role. For all we know, given how wobbly he was pitching, Torre/Honeycutt might have told Billingsley "don't try anything."

And why is all the focus on Billz and not the relievers who followed him.

What's Torre's history on beanball wars from NY days? Maybe he thinks his team should be the bigger men until the provocation becomes extreme, as it did last night.

At that point, I think the fastball aimed near Victorino's head was perfect. He got out of the way, but it scared him and probably scared his manager. Plus it got the umpires involved.

I think it could be a turning point, emotionally. I hope they've taken the measure of Joe Blanton. They can't let that guy ever get comfortable.

2008-10-13 10:27:53
149.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
Loney is no doubt in at 1B vs Blanton tonight, so does Blake's #'s vs Blanton mean Nosemar is in the lineup at 3B tonight? I think Blake will still get the call, but I wouldnt be surprised to see Nosemar penciled in.
2008-10-13 10:32:43
150.   bhsportsguy
148 Actually, being on SNL still does not supercede Rule 5.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-10-13 10:33:48
151.   Jon Weisman
148, edited -

148. seesdifferent
remarkably bad offense as of July: with the remarkably helpless Andruw Jones and without Manny and Raffy.... no leadoff man, no cleanup hitter, while featuring a record breaking whiff machine who wasn't hitting within 50 points of his weight. So what does that July offense have to do with the October offense? Hmmm.

2008-10-13 10:35:35
152.   underdog
138 I'm sure they're not called Santa Anas here - but the same kind of hot, sundown wind. They're called different things in different places. And of course they're much rarer here than down south, but still happen, especially this time of year. In Sta Barbara I think we called them Sundowners. "Hella hot" is also accepted here.
2008-10-13 10:36:05
153.   Frip
Jon:

...But until the Dodgers sent a Phillie spinning to the dirt, nothing was going to stop Philadelphia from continuing to make the Dodgers duck and cover.

[with emphasis] I am not endorsing hitting people with pitches. I am not endorsing throwing at someone's head.

I'm not TRYING to be fastidious here, but that does sound like a bold contradiction.

You desire a certain outcome (peace), and rationalize the means of achieving it (retaliatory bean ball), then reject it (bean balls) in principle.

Since there is a big difference between actually beaning a batter, and buzzing a batter, your phrase "spinning in the dirt" leaves your meaning vague, (perhaps intentionally) as McCarver did by employing the term "buzzing", out of a desire to not appear uncivilized, yet tacitly actually approving of the bean ball.

Are you, or are you not, in favor of beaning a batter under certain circumstances?

Either way is fine by me. But it's confusing as a reader to try and make sense of an approval, then a denial of that approval in the very next sentence. It's as if you want to have it both ways.

2008-10-13 10:43:21
154.   ToyCannon
I wish we were talking about the incredible game and that wild 1st inning other then who did what to whom related to pitch location.
2008-10-13 10:43:40
155.   cargill06
147 Even if that wasn't the case wouldn't that be the common sense thing to say to the media to protect Billingsley?

Like, "Hey, I told him don't do anything foolish this game is too important." Even if you didn't say that it takes heat of Billingsley in the media and clubhouse. There's a way to protect your game 5 starter from any of that crap.

2008-10-13 10:45:32
156.   D4P
wish we were talking about the incredible game

I didn't watch it. Was it really an incredible game, or do you just mean you're happy the Dodgers won?

2008-10-13 10:49:49
157.   Jon Weisman
154 - What's stopping you? I talked about both in my post.
2008-10-13 10:50:37
158.   Jacob Burch
Sometimes I wonder where some people find joy in their comments.

I had an absolutely incredible time at the game with great company abound. It is sort of fun watching such an event as a bullpen clearing, though I doubt its worth the aftermath of backwash useless commentary.

Blake DeWitt made Picture of the Game on the livejournal community I made, not Victorino. What a fun inning.

2008-10-13 10:52:50
159.   Bob Timmermann
I was wondering why DeWitt got a triple and not a double + FC. He didn't look like he was going to go to third until the throw went through.
2008-10-13 10:53:20
160.   Jon Weisman
153 - As a fan, it would have been fine by me to see the Dodgers not retaliate, because I don't believe in it. But had the Dodgers not retaliated, I don't know that the Phillies would stop throwing high and inside.

The first reflects my personal preference. the second reflects my interpretation of reality.

I'm hoping none of this is part of tonight's game.

2008-10-13 10:54:01
161.   Jon Weisman
159 - Really, I thought triple all the way - but I didn't see a replay.
2008-10-13 10:54:27
162.   D4P
159
When you keep score, do you enter the official scoring or your own interpretation?
2008-10-13 10:56:21
163.   Icaros
162

Bob scores based on what he thinks should have happened. For instance, Jack Clark never hit a home run in the '85 NLCS.

2008-10-13 10:57:20
164.   madmac
I really think the Dodgers handled things perfectly. During game 2 it never really entered my mind that the Dodgers needed to retaliate. I was just thinking they need to get the game under control. Billz never had a chance. As much as I can't stand McCarver, I felt he had great points. Billz looked great, but maybe the pitch selections are what led to his departure. Yesterday he stated it was important to buzz the Phills, but not hit a man. Hiroki throwing it where he did was perfect, it rattled Vic big time, while he could have stood straight up and still not been hit. In my mind, Vic has been the MVP for the Phills this NLCS. He really didn't look good after that at bat. Game 3 was the right time to retaliate.

I believe that Billz is fine with his teammates. I think it's just another storyline for the media. The best thing Torre could do, and maybe he already did, is to take Manny and maybe some of the other "vets" asside and explain the game 2 situation to them. Explain it wasn't Billz fault, he wasn't in a position to retaliate and that he was instructed not to retaliate at that moment. Deflect any blame from Billz to Torre whether Torre ever said anything to Billz or not.

2008-10-13 10:58:23
165.   D4P
Bob scores based on what he thinks should have happened

An infinite series of CIs...?

2008-10-13 10:58:42
166.   ToyCannon
156
The first inning had enough intrigue to fill out any journalists card. The fact it was a successful Dodger 1st inning certainly made it an incredible game. Blake DeWitt besting a man twice his age in the postseason. How often has that happened? The game was still in doubt when Wade came in and did what he's done all year long. A three run jack and the pressure starts to tighten.

The Dodgers have now gotten solid performances from four players who had never played in a major league game until this year. Usually these players will have smelled the coffee in Sept callups but Wade and DeWitt were so far removed from the idea of helping in 2008 they were ignored. McDonald and Kershaw were shut down for pitch count reasons. This is unusual. Very unusual for postseason play.

2008-10-13 10:59:05
167.   Sam PHL
Any ideas why the Dodgers have had so much early inning success in the NLCS? They've scored all of their runs in the first four innings. 8 of their 14 runs have been in the first two innings.

Maybe they've had good game plans to open the game, but then fall away from them as the game progresses...?

2008-10-13 11:00:32
168.   madmac
155 exactly
2008-10-13 11:04:06
169.   underdog
166 It is indeed unusual, good call. And it gives me hope for the future, regardless of what happens the rest of the post-season. Separate from some of the Dodger free agent questions, I have a lot of faith in their future based on what I've seen from Kershaw, McDonald, DeWitt, Wade, Broxton, plus Martin, Loney, Ethier, Kemp, Bills, etc. Question marks are a-plenty, but there's no question that they'll compete for some years to come.
2008-10-13 11:04:49
170.   ToyCannon
167
Manny batting 3rd might have something to do with it, but that is just a wild guess. No one wants to walk the dangerous hitter in the 1st inning unless forced to because of an open base.
Joe Blanton will walk Manny tonight.
2008-10-13 11:08:16
171.   ToyCannon
169
Come now, optimism for the future while playing in the NLCS! Those who can only deal in negatives will not want to hear such possibilities. If their mental makeup does not allow them to enjoy the current postseason they will instead focus on what the team will look like in 2009 based on mass free agent exodus.
2008-10-13 11:09:49
172.   ToyCannon
169
Bhsportsguy was the 1st to point all this out. I'm strictly a repeater of useful information.
2008-10-13 11:10:36
173.   wronghanded
139 Re: Loney's toe tap. Loney is doing that little toe dance thing for 2 reasons, first it helps a batter to keep his weight on his backside by landing early and lightly on his frontside. Secondly, he is pointing his front toes towards his body in an effort to avoid pulling off of the baseball, his foot only opens back up when his hips rotate during swing delivery. I personally have liked that approach for Loney, I think it will reduce his 4-6-3 DPs.
2008-10-13 11:10:37
174.   kinbote
169 DeWitt's positional flexibility gives us an advantage in our offseason planning. We can focus on adding a quality 2b OR 3b knowing DeWitt is able to play either position. I love him at 2b, but handing him the hot corner and going after a 2b [not to mention Hu, DeJesus, or Abreu] is also fine with me.
2008-10-13 11:13:41
175.   bryanf
I'm going to the game tonight!!! Woohoo!

Thought I'd never get the chance to go this postseason, but the planets aligned for me.

Looking forward to the win...

2008-10-13 11:13:42
176.   Bob Timmermann
162
I reflect the official scoring of the game.

I'll be in Reserved 1 tonight as opposed to Loge 166 last night, so watching plays develop will be a lot easier.

Sadly, I will miss all my friends in the Algonquin Round Table that are in that part of the stands. I play the part of George S. Kaufman.

2008-10-13 11:15:28
177.   madmac
166 Corey Wade is becomming one of my favorite players. I think you could make an argument that he has been just as or even more valuable to the Dodgers this year than Manny. The guy is amazing. Just a kid from AA. He comes in when things are tense and spinning out of control, but he looks as calm as could be, as if he's been doing it for 20 yrs. As soon as he steps on the mound everything seems to calm down almost instantly. Remarkable.
2008-10-13 11:16:41
178.   Bob Timmermann
My alltime in person postseason record is now 4-5.
I started off 0-2 after World Series losses in 1977 and 1978. Then after 1981, I was 2-3. Then there were losses in 1995 and 1996.
2008-10-13 11:17:12
179.   D4P
176
I reflect the official scoring of the game

Even when you object? (Nay, strenuously object?)

2008-10-13 11:18:07
180.   wronghanded
177 I hate to say it but Wade might eventually be a great back-end starter. He doesn't throw hard but his usual pin-point control and ++curveball would probably fit well into a #4 or 5 type role.
2008-10-13 11:19:34
181.   madmac
180 watching last night, I was thinking exactly the same thing.
2008-10-13 11:21:10
182.   wronghanded
181 I believe he throws a pretty good change too.
2008-10-13 11:29:33
183.   gpellamjr
I am extremely excited about the possibility of the Dodgers being tied 2-2 in the NLCS after tonight. My voice is still a little rough from yelling and screaming at the TV last night. The first inning was awesome.

As for throwing at players, I have no real problem with it one way or the other. Some people have already pointed out the strategic aspect of it, with which I agree-- that is, it's a way to get the other team to stop throwing pitches so far inside on your guys. What I was desperately afraid of was Manny going out there and getting suspended. Ugh.

Very exciting stuff, this series.

2008-10-13 11:34:17
184.   old dodger fan
DS mentioned in the WSJ today:
"Restaurant 15, located near Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, plans to shut later this month. Open for about a year, the restaurant has seen its revenue on weekend nights cut in half since June, says Alex Eusebio, the executive chef and part owner. He has laid off more than half his wait staff in the last month."
2008-10-13 11:38:23
185.   Kevin Lewis
I was thinking triple for DeWitt because of how far Werth was shifted over. It would have been a close play, but it wasn't out of the realm of possibility. I loved that at bat. Watching Nomar and Kemp look at strike 3 took the wind out of my sails, and if Moyer got out of that inning with only 2 runs, it could have been a completely different game.

Dear Blake DeWitt,

Thank you.

2008-10-13 11:39:26
186.   cargill06
183 As excited as you are, I'm as nervous. A loss would be tough to take, 3 must wins including Hamels Wed.
2008-10-13 11:44:02
187.   Bob Timmermann
184
Restaurant goes out of business! Film at 11!

Repeat each day.

Having a successful restaurant in any economic climate is extremely difficult. When I worked in the Business Department and people would come in looking for help writing a business plan for a restaurant, I often thought to myself "When are they going to come back for the bankruptcy books?"

2008-10-13 11:44:26
188.   Humma Kavula
I'm joining late. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read through the thread... but I had to get down some thoughts before it got even later.

What a contrast to the NLDS clincher. I know that there were many reports of an ugly crowd there, but as I posted here, from my vantage point the crowd at that game was joyful and was rewarded with a well-played, exciting contest that (fortunately) the Dodgers led all the way. Others didn't have this experience, but it was one of the best games for me that I'd ever attended.

Still, because so many people had such a different experience than I had, I was wary of the crowd but hopeful that things would be OK.

Things were not OK. I don't know if it was the fact that the Dodgers were down 0-2 in the series, or that in the first inning, the team took an (as it turned out) insurmountable lead, or that there was weird violence on the field, but this crowd was ugly.

From the very beginning of the game, the one Phillie fan in our section -- Loge, near the right-field foul pole -- took it. At first, he was cheery about it, tipping his cap to the crowd with a big grin. But as the game went on, the verbal abuse got worse and worse. Threats to smack him down in the parking lot. One 90-pound woman screamed, "Get outta here! We don't want your kind here!" (Yes, "your kind.") Things were thrown -- peanuts, I think.

You could see the Phillie fan struggling to maintain his temper. Fortunately, there was no fight.

And the only thing I could think the whole time was: where were the ushers?

Frank McCourt keeps touting Dodger Stadium as a premier family destination in Los Angeles. The crowd was so surly last night that it kinda puts the lie to that.

I'll put it this way: the crowd rivalled the legendary crowds of $2 Tuesdays from a few years back (was it 2005?). It got to the point then that I refused to attend Tuesday games until the promotion ended, and it was such a disaster that it ended quickly. Last night didn't have anybody running onto the field, so it wasn't QUITE as bad as $2 Tuesdays, but it certainly wasn't the joyful buzz I was expecting of an NLCS game and it was bad enough that I now think that my NLDS experience was a fluke and that this is more representative of the stuff that goes on.

I support McCourt's attempts to put the Dodgers front-and-center in LA by making Dodger Stadium the destination, but for all the money he's poured into seats, food, and parking, I wonder if he has a plan to reshape the in-seat fan experience. One place to start might be more ushers, trained in crowd control, watching the crowd and quick to step in to defuse tensions. But I'm not an expert and if McCourt has another plan, that's fine.

2008-10-13 11:44:33
189.   regfairfield
Surprising fact I picked up somewhere: a team down 3-2 going home actually wins the series more often than not.

All of these Dodger Stadium games should be must wins.

2008-10-13 11:51:00
190.   briano
Can anyone tell me where there are photos of last nights Garvey, Cey, Lopes and Russell first pitch ceremonies. For some reason they have taken off the Photo Gallery section on dodgers.com. They use to show photos from every game including any festivities. Thanks to anyone who can get that info.
2008-10-13 11:52:53
191.   D4P
Surprising fact I picked up somewhere: a team down 3-2 going home actually wins the series more often than not

Interesting. Assuming a home team wins roughly 55.68% of the games (as they did in 2008), we'd only expect the team down 3-2 to win both remaining games roughly 31% of the time.

2008-10-13 11:54:24
192.   AKtheFan
I have two extra tickets for tonight's game available for any one here. They are in Loge 153. I'm asking face value $80 (without any of Ticketmaster's fees). Email anupum dot kumar at gmail dot com.
2008-10-13 11:57:14
193.   D4P
HOWEVER, the home winning percentages of this year's playoff teams is much higher than the overall percentage, which I suppose isn't at all surprising.

TB: 70.4%
Bos: 69.1
Cubs: 67.9
ChiSox: 67.5
Angels: 61.7
Mil: 60.5
Phi/LA: 59.3

But even the Rays would only be expected to win the remaining 2 games 49.5% of the time.

But the other big issue is that the team who at home for games 6 and 7 had the better season record, at least outside the World Series.

2008-10-13 11:58:19
194.   Andrew Shimmin
I agree with 68 , that security should concentrate on keeping fans out of any fracas. But the Dodgers have a good quarter of a million parking lot attendants who can't be all that busy during the game. Just injecting all of them on the field would be enough to keep any brawl from being functional. Like putting out a camp fire with a smokejumper plane.

Also, has everybody noticed what happens when you click on those 0 links? Is it just a way of getting extra pinky-typing practicing?

2008-10-13 11:59:37
195.   D4P
But the Dodgers have a good quarter of a million parking lot attendants who can't be all that busy during the game. Just injecting all of them on the field would be enough to keep any brawl from being functional

But then, would would attend the parking lot?

Oh, right: Frank McCourt.

2008-10-13 12:01:42
196.   old dodger fan
From the archives-
In 1965 we lost the first 2 games of the WS in Minnesota; came home and took all 3; went back to Minnesota and lost game 6 and then won game 7 (on the 14th of October).

Of course, having Koufax pitch a shutout in game 5 and come back and pitch another one on two days rest in game 7 was a big help.

2008-10-13 12:03:36
197.   Im So Blue
190 Photos are still there at dodgers.com. Look on the bottom right section, LA Favorite Photos.
2008-10-13 12:07:36
198.   Jimmyv11
Well just got back from the weekend jaunt down to LA for game 3. AMAZING! Its been about 2 years since Ive been back to both LA and Dodger stadium, LOTS of changes! My girlfriend was asking me questions about things and Im almost didn't know the answer, and I'd been going since 3rd grade! Postive changes I must add as well. The making money changes are the most obvious but at the same time I felt a larger sense of Dodger pride and BLUE, granted it was a playoff game but the accessability to purchase colors and gear was great, resulting in my converted Dodger fan girl to WANT tons of gear.

To the game, I agree with Jon that Victorino has no right to be upset or complain about a thing. In fact when the moment happened I stood in my chair, watched and thought now why is he so mad? I do however think that a "retaliation" was in order whether it be a hard slide into a base or very inside pitch. Quotes from Manny express frustration that it did not incur in Philly. I gave Myers the benefit of doubt that night. Gave Moyer the benefit for the first one but seriously at Martin's head? Now it was in order and I think Kuroda made a large statement, I think the entire Dodger team made a whole statement from the first inning, Furcal swinging at the first pitch and smashing a homerun? Furcal nevers swings at the first pitch but he was already decided. Manny rushing from the outfield after the inning was over, Plaschke was right that towards the end he was "playing" it up but he should and the team should have. They needed to get angry, they needed some fire, not because it was entirely lost but because to turn this series around, this game and incidents that ensued may be just what the doctor ordered. I want to go as far and say this could be turning point in the series. The Phillies seemed bullied after that Victorino groundout, like a bully having just been stood up to. They looked clueless and just plain beat. finally I loved seeing Dewitt step up and become a major leaguer, not that he wasn't but big hit, big pressure, first postseason, I see nothing but good things coming from him. Kuroda was the last piece of greatness last night, he showed flashes of greatness throughout the season but he has stepped up when its counted and I have every faith Mr. Lowe will do so again tonight. This is playoff time and not time to rest our seasoned vet ace.

2008-10-13 12:08:28
199.   ToyCannon
188
I've rarely seen bad behavior from a known season ticket holder. This isn't a class or economic observation as the seats in my area are owned by the same ethnic and economic distribution as the people who buy the game day tickets.
2008-10-13 12:13:34
200.   ToyCannon
The Dodger Video legends thing they have going is fun to watch but I expect I could tire of the Fernando/Lasorda videos if they run every night.
California Dreaming last night even made my wife proud to life in LA and she's wanted to move for 20 years. Stopped into a church and showing Dodger Stadium. Good stuff.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-10-13 12:17:29
201.   KG16
199 - I've noticed a big difference in the crowd based on where I was sitting in years past. I usually attend with someone who is a fan of the other team, and on the field level there is some good natured ribbing but nothing threatening; on the reserve level, I've had times when I did not leave the company of a girl wearing a JD Drew Cardinals jersey because I didn't trust the crowd/mob. but i didn't make any games this year, so maybe its different now.
2008-10-13 12:19:19
202.   Jimmyv11
As far as security getting involved I think that would create more problems then solve. I think that players, coaches and umpires are to solve any problems on the field, unless of course fans run onto the field and attack an umpire, like Chisox/KC game. If the incident and "bad blood" is excessive enough to boil into every player on both sides then that would be something of unprecendence and a truly sad degression of the game we love. After the incident and Nomar reached 1st he patted Howard almost as if to say we're good, of course it was probably a simply Hello but I think there are more Nomar's on a baseball field then say (insert player who has started more fights than anyone in baseball here).
2008-10-13 12:20:00
203.   alexx
184
I seem to remembering seeing that the chef at Restaurant 15 is going to be on Top Chef this season.
2008-10-13 12:23:13
204.   Bob Timmermann
Someone actually owns a JD Drew Cardinals jersey. The Best Fans in Baseball despise JD Drew with the heat of ten thousand suns.

"Five Days in August" (or whatever Bissinger's book was called) has in its index the heading of
"Drew, J.D.,
Underachivement of.."

2008-10-13 12:24:32
205.   briano
Thank you 197.
2008-10-13 12:24:41
206.   KG16
189 - I'm not really that surprised. first, most teams have winning records at home and losing records on the road (only six teams had winning records on the road this year, and only the Angels were more than 2 or 3 games above .500). Plus, you're usually looking at a team's two best pitchers in games 6 and 7 (depending on the year and team, you're looking at combos like Drysdale/Koufax, Pedro/Shilling, Shilling/Johnson, Clemens/Petitte, etc).
2008-10-13 12:25:51
207.   KG16
204 - she had a crush on Drew. also, it was when Drew was playing for the Dodgers and being less than an All Star.
2008-10-13 12:27:12
208.   Bob Timmermann
I would add that the day I almost got into a fight with Cardinals fans at Dodger Stadium (it was really hot, I was in a bad mood, and a lot of other things), but the Cardinals fans cheered when Jeff Suppan hit Drew with a pitch in his leg.

They were out for blood.

I hope all their dreams in life have gone unfulfilled.

2008-10-13 12:32:08
209.   LogikReader
188

This has been a problem for almost a decade now. I think the best thing we can do is write a letter to the Dodgers, a paper letter, at least to express what is happening and the frustration therin.

You'd hate for games to be ruined by lousy fans. The second thing is, why all the hate for people who wear the other teams' colors? I don't get that at all! So what, they root for the other team. It's just a game.

2008-10-13 12:36:24
210.   Tommy Naccarato
160 Jon, Somewhere in heaven, Drysdale is disagreeing with you!

188 Clearly, and it is my observation--if not others--that a somewhat long hibernating Raider element and mentality has some found its way to Chavez Ravine.

We cannot kid ourselves; this is a group that is more akin to being that of a soccer-hooligan found in London or Brazil; whose lack of knowledge about the beauty and strategy of the Game does not compare to a ill-conceived racial insult. These types of fans like upheaval because they have a lot of anger in their lives. These types just want to see a fight when others want to escape all of that nonsense. Home plate is nothing more then a battle ground of contempt, anger and deceit. Sometimes even revenge.

Some of you longtime Jon's Dodger Thoughts readers will remember sometime back when Jon posted that letter from the brother of the Giant fan who was ruthlessly killed at Dodger Stadium after just another heated Dodgers/Giants contest. I still think of that kid from time to time--alls he wanted to do was watch a great baseball game between two teams with one of the more storied rivalries in all of sports. His brother described in that letter, just how much he loved baseball and despite him being a Giant fan I cannot think of a better type person to watch a baseball game with.

My best friend is a life-long Angel fan who detests the Dodgers; and I'm not that much different about the Angels either. Still, I would rather go enjoy a game with him then anyone because we love the game and its an even better way to enjoy our friendship. We have different likes and dislikes, but one thing we share is our love for baseball.

You just wish some of this rabid element at Dodger Stadium could be the same...Before someone else gets hurt.

2008-10-13 12:36:48
211.   Bob Timmermann
I've found less hostility toward USC fans sitting in my section at the Rose Bowl for the USC-UCLA football game.

And UCLA is usually getting throttled in that game.

Then there are Notre Dame fans. The fans there are freakishly polite to out of towners. Except to Michigan fans. They hate them.

2008-10-13 12:38:02
212.   scareduck
187 - they should start with the bankruptcy books. Walter O'Malley was widely (and from what I can tell, correctly) castigated as a skinflint, but consider his background: he made his first fortune as a bankruptcy attorney.

My uncle's second wife's son (which would make us step-cousins, I suppose) is building a hotel/restaurant in Buenos Aires. The zero order goal should always be thrift; second should be location; third should be the actual running of the thing. He's building the thing himself and it's costing him a fortune. I wonder that he will ever see a profit on it.

2008-10-13 12:40:09
213.   seesdifferent
could we get off the brushback stuff already? let's get back to talking about the grating Tim McCarver. Oh, I forgot, Tim McCarver is all brushback, all the time. Can't someone stop this man? aren't there such things as temporary restraining orders? isn't the public safety at risk here? The over/under for minutes consumed in the pregame, in the pursuit of the already beaten to death brushback: 3 minutes before the game starts, and the o/u for mentions during the game=7
2008-10-13 12:41:23
214.   LogikReader
I think the issues at Dodger Stadium are a fixable problem. I understand that Yankee Stadium was a zoo just like that in the 70s and 80s, but I gave it a visit this year and I saw a decent police presence (Police, mind you, not ushers). Needless to say, the experience was quite a good one.
2008-10-13 12:41:50
215.   LogikReader
I should add, they were playing the Rays :/
2008-10-13 12:44:44
216.   D4P
I would add that the day I almost got into a fight with Cardinals fans at Dodger Stadium

Was that the "rubber ball to the neck" incident...?

2008-10-13 12:45:06
217.   Humma Kavula
214 My Met-fan friends who sometimes attends Yankee games says this about Yankee Stadium:

If our Phillie fan had been seated in the bleachers, it would have been a zoo of insults and thrown items, and then, even if the Phillie fan did nothing but sit pleasantly, the cops would have removed him and not the unruly Yankee fans. (She doesn't know if he would have been moved to another section or removed from the stadium entirely.)

I don't know if that's a good solution. It keeps the guy from getting assaulted, but rewards the fans for bad behavior.

2008-10-13 12:45:29
218.   Harold M Johnson
I reject the contention that Dodger Stadium is a "zoo" or anything approaching that. Sure there are some drunken idiots, some classless folks mixed in with the 55k+, but it's nothing like a zoo. There wasn't even a single fight last night!
2008-10-13 12:46:26
219.   Humma Kavula
Completely OT question to those who watched on television: did we get a Vin Scully sighting last night?

At Game 1 in Philly, Fox had Harry Kalas read the starting lineup.

2008-10-13 12:49:02
220.   Bob Timmermann
Drysdale is the Dodgers franchise leader in HBP with 154.

The guy in second is Harry McIntire, who managed to hit 82 guys in just five seasons in Brooklyn from 1905-1909.

Of active Dodger pitchers, Chan Ho Park leads in HBPs as a Dodger with 74, which is fourth alltime and one ahead of Nap Rucker.

Burt Hooton pitched 10 seasons for the Dodgers and hit 12 guys.

2008-10-13 12:49:51
221.   Bob Timmermann
216
The rubber ball to the neck was a Dodgers-Braves game at the start of the 2005 season.
2008-10-13 12:50:11
222.   Humma Kavula
218 When I use the phrase "show some class," I mean it to have zero relation to the amount of money one makes.

The guy I saw at the NLDS clincher who was gently and good-naturedly teasing the Cubs fans isn't necessarily worried about his capital gains taxes, but he had class.

Can we take that out of the equation, please?

2008-10-13 12:50:33
223.   KG16
219 - McBuck talked about Vin last night, but that was all. and he got a nice graphic. but no actual air time.
2008-10-13 12:50:39
224.   trainwreck
219
They talked about Vin and showed him on TV and even did a little graphic on his career.
2008-10-13 12:50:53
225.   Linkmeister
Re the restaurant success ratio, I remember a quote from somebody who was asked how to make a million in the restaurant business. The reply was "Start with two million."

It's a hard hard business with tiny margins on food; you've got to make it up on liquor. If you don't sell booze, that obviously makes it even harder. And you're subject to the real estate mantra: "Location, location, location."

2008-10-13 12:52:20
226.   Jimmyv11
At some events Fox should be over the Joe Buck, show, frankly I don't enjoy him, nor McCarver at all but they could have two broadcasting gems in Scully and Kalas calling these games, really you'd think what more would baseball purists want to watch cause based on a portion of ratings its seems as though the only ones watching are purists and the teams fans.
2008-10-13 12:52:22
227.   Bob Timmermann
222
I'm usually more worried about the AMT.
2008-10-13 12:52:41
228.   Sam PHL
219. They briefly showed him in the press box and had a graphic with his CV. But, alas, we didn't get any words out of his mouth. I had to mute the FOX broadcast because it was all beanball talk all the time.
2008-10-13 12:53:27
229.   D4P
221
Sounds like you've had multiple "incidents".

The only one I've ever had remains the "(Presumably) Giants fans dumping beer on my dad and I at Candlestick back in 1983 for (presumably) being outwardly pro-Dodger".

2008-10-13 12:53:35
230.   Humma Kavula
227 Get married! Then you can worry about the "marriage penalty" instead!
2008-10-13 12:56:34
231.   Bob Timmermann
229
Dodger Stadium incidents for me:

Guy spilling beer on me in 1981 NLCS and other person laughing at me whole game.

Sitting next to jerky Cardinal fans in 2005.

2008-10-13 12:56:39
232.   KG16
226 - I would love to hear Vina and Kalas call the game, either together or separately. But I suspect that Fox sees McBuck as the "product" more than the game, and I can't believe that they'd willingly degrade their product, in their minds.

Same reason NBC/ABC wouldn't have Chick Hearn calling Laker games in the playoffs, viewers would have been given a treat, but it would degrade their announcers.

Which is strange to me, because we're talking about icons, as opposed so say, Sutton and Grace.

2008-10-13 12:59:15
233.   Bob Timmermann
Oh, and "Rubber ball to the neck in 2005"
2008-10-13 13:02:21
234.   Ken Noe
Having read over the years about angry and surly DS crowds, I faced my first games there this year with a bit of trepidation, especially with the Angels in as the opponent. Yet no one threatened to kill anybody, as a Baltimore crowd once did to two of my college classmates both dressed in Yankee gear (I was in the car, pointing to my souvenir O's helmet). What I saw instead was roughly equivalent to a big SEC game, complete with the taunting and "x sucks" chants that sadly are a national, not Chavez Ravine, problem. If you want something akin to the Raider Nation, try being a visiting fan at LSU or West Virginia.
2008-10-13 13:04:14
235.   Bob Timmermann
Dave Goltz holds the Dodgers record for most innings pitched as a Dodger with no HBP, 245 2/3 IP.
2008-10-13 13:05:38
236.   Lexinthedena
I caught anti-semetic slurs from a fellow Dodger fan in the Pavilion when I was 17 because I wouldn't let him steal someone else's things that had been left during a bathroom break.

That's my only incident.

2008-10-13 13:09:23
237.   Marty
So, if Bob is Goerge S. Kaufman, I want to know who is Dorothy Parker, Robert Benchley, Harpo Marx and Frank Adams?
2008-10-13 13:11:33
238.   Bob Timmermann
It's tough to be a scalper:
http://tinyurl.com/4sl2th
2008-10-13 13:15:03
239.   ToyCannon
Fires getting nasty. Watching the plumes from the NorthWest San Fernando Valley and it is getting darker and darker.
2008-10-13 13:15:49
240.   Jacob Burch
So, how common is it for a fan to fall from the loge to the field? I've always wondered things like this.
2008-10-13 13:22:19
241.   Bob Timmermann
240
Are you planning on recreating scenes from "The Naked Gun?"
2008-10-13 13:22:53
242.   ToyCannon
240
Never heard of it before. I will say that several weeks ago near the foul pole an older heavy lady in the first row was showing some erratic behavior or such and those guys you see walking out to the outfield and doing their best secret service imitations pulled her over the rail and took her down. Within seconds she was handcuffed and escorted out the bullpen gate. If you blinked you missed the whole thing.

I'm guessing they misinterpreted her intentions as she was in the same seat the next game I attended but the speed in which they acted was quite unlike the snail like movement of the LAPD who handle the security in the stands.

2008-10-13 13:23:12
243.   Jacob Burch
241 It apparently happened last night. I seem to have three or four degrees of separation from the guy landed on.
2008-10-13 13:30:54
244.   underdog
Does it look like the fires will affect the game any? Or is most of the worst of it far from DS?
2008-10-13 13:31:12
245.   ToyCannon
Casey Blake (1 for 21) or Nomar at 3rd base against Blanton tonight?
2008-10-13 13:31:53
246.   Bob Timmermann
The fire is pretty far away from Dodger Stadium. It's at the north end of the San Fernando Valley.
2008-10-13 13:32:26
247.   ToyCannon
244
At the moment far far away. Griffith Park would have to burn down for there to be any effect on tonights game.
2008-10-13 13:32:43
248.   evenatriple
Like the rest of you, I am very disturbed by the behavior of some fans at DS, and I share everyone's wish that the McCourts would pay more attention to this. I will not take my kids to the Stadium unless we have great seats, and even then one out of four games they are exposed to some very unpleasant behavior.

But, I will say that nothing I've seen at DS -- not even being in the left field pavillion when Barry Bonds was playing -- compares to a summer day in the bleachers at Fenway when the Yankees are in town. It's been many years since I had that experience, but it was one long drunken brawl. Guys were getting tossed by the dozen, dragged out by a legion of guards and ushers. It was the wildest thing I ever saw outside of the mosh pit when the Dead Kennedys were playing (which I observed from a safe distance, unlike my experience at Fenway).

2008-10-13 13:38:51
249.   Cannonball
245 It's Blake. I thought it'd be Nomar at 3rd. But I'm more bummed Pierre is taking Kemp's place.
2008-10-13 13:41:20
250.   Louis in SF
Furcal, SS

Ethier, RF

Manny, LF

Martin, C

Loney, 1B

DeWitt, 2B

Blake, 3B

Pierre, CF

Lowe, P

Surprised considering Kemp got a couple of hits last night that Joe would go with JP. However saying that glad he is batting 8th.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-10-13 13:41:44
251.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Pierre's presence in the starting lineup makes me glad I'll be at the game. He's less painful in person than online.
2008-10-13 13:42:42
252.   Ken Noe
Maybe FOX will have a montage of JP's memorable throws from the outfield...oh, nevermind.
2008-10-13 13:43:09
253.   KG16
249 - good thing no one bothered replacing the glass on the pitchfork and torch case.
2008-10-13 13:44:35
254.   Gagne55
Furcal, SS

Ethier, RF

Manny, LF

Martin, C

Loney, 1B

DeWitt, 2B

Blake, 3B

Pierre, CF

Lowe, P

2008-10-13 13:45:31
255.   MollyKnight
Does anyone have the series winning percentages for teams down 2-0 vs. 2-1 in a seven game baseball post-season set?
2008-10-13 13:46:16
256.   Humma Kavula
Matt Kemp could be 0-for-playoffs with no walks, two reach-on-errors, and two caught stealings and it still wouldn't make sense to start Pierre.

Pitchfork? Check. Torch? Check. Keyboard? Check.

2008-10-13 13:46:26
257.   Gagne55
Sorry, I didn't see that somebody else already posted the lineup. :(
2008-10-13 13:48:34
258.   LOB
Hi All,

Great write-up, and picture, Jon. I got back last night still jacked with adrenaline and your piece was just what the doctor ordered.

We have one ticket available for tonight - Loge section 165, Row R, for 81.30. njr, myself, and a friend will be rabidly cheering next to you. Tix are computer print-outs, alas, but guaranteed good times.

Also, 104 we have 2 tix for Wed., Loge 162, Row F, seats 13-14, 162.60 total.

If anyone's interested, you can e-mail me at tinker @ tinkerlindsay dot com , or njr at
thomasbeatty @ gmail dot com

238 No scalping for us!

Last night's game was great. Watching all the pitchers lumbering across the field to back up their boys was somehow hilarious and totally exciting at the same time, and Blake Dewitt's triple was a pure, peak baseball experience.

go dodgers.

2008-10-13 13:49:02
259.   Lexinthedena
Holy God....Juan Pierre!

Kemp must not have thrown enough punches last night.

Does Pierre own Blanton or something?

2008-10-13 13:49:25
260.   D4P
I wonder if Torre knows that Kemp outhit Pierre vs. RH this year.

I mean, I'm sitting here in my pajamas, making $19,000 a year, and I can look it up in a few seconds.

Not that outhitting RH necessarily means that Kemp should start over Pierre vs. a RH, but I doubt Pierre would be starting if the opposing pitcher were an LH.

2008-10-13 13:51:02
261.   D4P
Does Pierre own Blanton or something?

If by "own" you mean "has never faced in his life".

2008-10-13 13:51:21
262.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Pierre has not batted against Joe Blanton.

He's a tabula rasa.

2008-10-13 13:51:31
263.   Andrew Shimmin
Pierre's never faced Blanton. Manny owns him, though.

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/Mafm

2008-10-13 13:51:56
264.   Andrew Shimmin
D'oh.
2008-10-13 13:52:59
265.   Lexinthedena
What are Kemp's #'s against Blanton?
2008-10-13 13:53:06
266.   Jacob Burch
255
The home team of game 3, trailing 0-2, Series wins: 3-21, 12.5%

The home team of game 4, trailing 1-2, Series wins: 19-35, 35.2%.

According to:
http://www.whowins.com/tables/up21.html

2008-10-13 13:54:29
267.   cargill06
FWIW, Kemps last 176 PA's including post-season, .247/.301/.370. Juan Pierre can do that, I just hope there are no situations where his arm is exposed.
2008-10-13 13:55:19
268.   Branch Rickey
Kemp's been looking bad recently but Pierre's been looking bad his whole career. I don't like the move but nor do I think it's a big mistake at this point. Pierre may just have his head in a better place right now and he will certainly be motivated. Almost wish we were batting him 9th though to get that Pierre/Furcal thing.
2008-10-13 13:55:33
269.   Jacob Burch
266 I misread the tables, so it's slightly off, but not by much. H/V refers to the home team of Game 1, not the game of decision.
2008-10-13 13:56:11
270.   JoeyP
If there's any time to play your best players, its in the playoffs.

Juan Pierre?

2008-10-13 13:56:43
271.   Jacob Burch
269 Actually, two wrongs probably will end up being a right on this one! I stand by my numbers.
2008-10-13 13:56:47
272.   Andrew Shimmin
I'm only angry because my I'd-leave-Kemp-off-the-NLCS-roster joke isn't funny, any more.
2008-10-13 13:57:50
273.   JoeyP
Pierre may just have his head in a better place right now and he will certainly be motivated

Its the playoffs.
Every player is trying their hardest.

There's no good reason to start Pierre over Kemp in the regular season, let alone the playoffs.

If Joe would start Pierre in the biggest game of the season, I have to think 2009 he could do the same thing.

2008-10-13 13:57:53
274.   Frip
Palm trees make me not want to fight.
2008-10-13 13:58:38
275.   Humma Kavula
267 Sure, Pierre can do that. But there is the chance that Kemp will bust out of his 176-or-however-much-AB slump. For Pierre, that's as good as it gets.

But you know all that.

2008-10-13 13:59:45
276.   underdog
Kemp is 2 for 8 vs Blanton with 2 walks and 2 K's. Doesn't he also struggle against righties, or am I making that up? Well, those who wanted Pierre over Kemp the other day get their wish. I don't mind that much, esp. since he's batting 8th and is a lefty. But I was wondering why neither Kent nor Nomar (I wouldn't have both of them in the infield, that's for sure) play tonight vs Blanton? I guess they want the best D out there with Lowe pitching, which I understand.
2008-10-13 14:00:07
277.   Sam PHL
There is also the possibility that Kemp could knock himself in with one swing. I really don't see how Pierre in there is going to help the Dodgers at all.
2008-10-13 14:00:15
278.   Humma Kavula
Can I make a joke without anyone taking it too seriously?

Pierre may just have his head in a better place right now and he will certainly be motivated

Hey, I wish Pierre was in, um, "a better place."

Thank you! I'll be here all week!

2008-10-13 14:00:55
279.   Lexinthedena
There's got to be more to the Pierre move.

Theories?

2008-10-13 14:00:57
280.   gpellamjr
266 How does the Dodgers' status as a Team of Destiny affect those numbers?
2008-10-13 14:01:24
281.   Harold M Johnson
The defensive ramifications are more serious, I think. At this point, I've given up trying to second-guess Joe Torre, I just roll with it and hope he's right.
2008-10-13 14:02:10
282.   Sam PHL
Having Pierre as a lefty doesn't make sense either since Blanton has a reverse platoon split in his career.
2008-10-13 14:02:39
283.   cargill06
275 I agree, but if he doesn't there are things Pierre does better than Kemp, his baserunning is better every year and he's always above average at getting to fly balls.

I don't agree with the decision but it's not the end of the world.

2008-10-13 14:03:04
284.   Branch Rickey
273 If you really believe that Kemp is FAR likely to have a better game than Pierre TONIGHT than we just disagree. If I were the manager, I'd probably start Kemp. But I just don't think that taking everything into account, it a horrendous choice.
2008-10-13 14:04:18
285.   UKDodger
I wonder if Kent had a chance to play tonight, with Blake not so hot against Blanton and Dewitt shifting to 3rd...
2008-10-13 14:04:34
286.   D4P
How does the Dodgers' status as a Team of Destiny affect those numbers?

And where does Midas fit in?

2008-10-13 14:05:02
287.   MollyKnight
266-What are the odds of the Dodgers winning the series if they win tonight?
2008-10-13 14:05:08
288.   Bob Timmermann
Torre will say something along the lines of: "I just felt that with the way Matt had been swinging the bat, I wanted to give him to tie to let things slow down. Juan has postseason experience and I know he can help us shake things up with his speed."
2008-10-13 14:05:14
289.   Andrew Shimmin
278- I'm outraged!

279- Kemp may have stolen Torre's dentures while he was napping, then used them to clamp on to an ceiling fan. The whole thing may have ended in busting up the dentures (and, presumably, permanently marring the fan). But, I'm just guessing, I don't have any hard evidence.

2008-10-13 14:05:44
290.   Bob Timmermann
288
Except Torre's statement might be grammatical.
2008-10-13 14:06:19
291.   ToyCannon
The right handed bench of Kent/Nomar/Kemp is quite impressive assuming Kemp comes up with the bases empty and all we need is a single.

For those of you who love to look toward 2009 while we are still playing, nothing would help 2009 right now then to have Juan Pierre do some serious S & S work to make him tradeable while also helping us win a game.

2008-10-13 14:07:26
292.   Lexinthedena
Well, Pierre has been good in postseason right?....right?
2008-10-13 14:08:03
293.   Branch Rickey
279 My theory is that Torre has watched the last three games very closely and feels that Kemp is off right now. Maybe even pressing. Doesn't think he's likely to kick into gear tonight. Thinks Pierre could add something (if not much). Likes Kemp off the bench more than Pierre off the bench. I hate defending anything having to do with Pierre and I hope he's not on the team next year. But I just don't think at this moment, it's a crazy move.
2008-10-13 14:08:55
294.   Andrew Shimmin
I can sympathize with not wanting to get angry about it, but c'mon: this is dumb. Matt Kemp is better at baseball than Juan Pierre. He doesn't need any extra rest. It could work out, because sometimes stupid things work out in baseball. This would be one of those times, if it happens, because it's pretty stupid.
2008-10-13 14:10:01
295.   DBrim
Pierre? Seriously? Earth to Torre...
2008-10-13 14:14:34
296.   DBrim
If anybody could use a spot start, it's Kent. He's 5 for 6 career against Blanton.
2008-10-13 14:16:55
297.   ToyCannon
If Lowe wasn't starting I'd like to see Kent playing 2nd and DeWitt 3rd but Kent could kill us right now when we need the DP.
2008-10-13 14:17:19
298.   underdog
I actually think Pierre can contribute on offense in this game, potentially. Like a few others mentioned above, I worry more about his noodle-arm in the outfield. But for one game, I don't think this is a big deal. Plus, as TC says, if we really want the Dodgers to be able to trade Pierre this off-season, which I think they will at least try to do, might as well root for him to succeed.

If Lowe can go 5 solid innings again, I would have him on a very short leash with guys like Kershaw in the pen.

2008-10-13 14:18:04
299.   Sam DC
Pitchfork? Check. Torch? Check. Keyboard? Check.

I know it's sorta bad form and all, but that really made me laugh.

Happily, I will be out (planning a Pinewood Derby!) for much of the game.

2008-10-13 14:18:39
300.   ToyCannon
The more angst that is spilled about Pierre starting the higher the likelihood that he contributes to tonight's win.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-10-13 14:18:53
301.   Lexinthedena
I think Kent would have started a few games if he was truly healthy. I think the only reason he is on the roster right now is to get him some potential glory by way of his professional bat.
2008-10-13 14:20:58
302.   fanerman
Yeah, Pierre over Kemp doesn't bother me that much. I'd rather have Kemp in, but... it's okay. Maybe I'm just tired today.
2008-10-13 14:23:25
303.   ToyCannon
Dodger Rays break into scoring column first fueled by real Dodger Rays.
2008-10-13 14:23:56
304.   Jacob Burch
287

I started looking for these numbers after I posted and I can't seem to find anything. Let's hope we win two in a row so I can get easily accessed numbers ;-)

2008-10-13 14:24:02
305.   Lexinthedena
300 So true....I expect this in tomorrows LAT...

----------------------

He was ignored most of the year.

Dirt, sweat, and speed replaced by Glamour, power, and pouting.

Last night he reminded those of us who remember what baseball looks like.

It's wasn't OBP, or OPS, or VORP. It was high socks, oversized helmets, and headfirst passion.

With every slap, dash, and cloud of dust, he brought an ungrateful fan base closer to a 20 year dream.

---------------------

Feel free to take it from there....

2008-10-13 14:24:20
306.   ToyCannon
302
We need more angst for 300 to work. This settling is not going to cut it.
2008-10-13 14:25:42
307.   ToyCannon
305
Nice, lets hope that proves prophetic.
2008-10-13 14:25:54
308.   Alex41592
And Fenway Park is silent.
2008-10-13 14:27:27
309.   Bill Crain
300
I hate it when someone spills angst all over my keyboard.
2008-10-13 14:28:34
310.   Lexinthedena
TIm McCarver insists that three days rest has no adverse effects on a pitcher. I wonder if John Lester agrees right now.
2008-10-13 14:30:19
311.   Kevin Lewis
305

Are you the real Bill Plaschke?

2008-10-13 14:31:16
312.   JRSarno
Pierre. Oh boy. I can't figure this out at all. I'm resigned to employ inane logic to justify this decision: since Lowe is hitting behind him, maybe Pierre will get better pitches.
2008-10-13 14:32:21
313.   regfairfield
Do you want me to rail against it, that usually helps?
2008-10-13 14:32:50
314.   ToyCannon
310
It probably doesn't if you have been doing it all of your career during the era he played.
2008-10-13 14:33:14
315.   Andrew Shimmin
Maybe they think that if Haren goes headhunting tonight, he'll pick the most Victorino-y Dodger available.
2008-10-13 14:34:00
316.   Alex41592
I'm waiting on Torre to speak about the Pierre situation. With Lowe on the mound defense is everything. The last thing we need is Rollins or Victorino taking an extra base.
2008-10-13 14:34:04
317.   ToyCannon
313
Yes, you are the king. Why Magic Marlon would have been Ordinary Anderson if you hadn't pointed out what a senseless trade it was.
2008-10-13 14:34:22
318.   Marty
Maybe Billingsley will bean Pierre before the game. It's win-win.
2008-10-13 14:34:33
319.   underdog
Oh man, sad news. RIP Son of Gerard Depardieu. He was 2 years young than me! :-(
2008-10-13 14:35:04
320.   MollyKnight
305-

When the team traded for Mannny Ramirez, he took more batting practice

When Andre Ethier had his month-long moment, he ran sprints in the outfield.

When Matt Kemp started slumping, he was ready.

2008-10-13 14:35:18
321.   underdog
315 Haren = Blanton, I presume?

319 young = younger

2008-10-13 14:36:07
322.   underdog
305 You forgot the requisite "ring in a box" clause.
2008-10-13 14:37:03
323.   Marty
Seve Ballesteros has a brain tumor. I'm astonished he's a year younger than me. It seems like I was reading about him at the Masters when I was a kid.
2008-10-13 14:39:18
324.   Frip
305

320

Funny, really funny :)

2008-10-13 14:39:48
325.   Ken Noe
322 Dang, you beat me to it!
2008-10-13 14:40:16
326.   Dodger Dawg
By starting Pierre Joe's sacrificing defense for ? As far as the retaliation thing, I think the Dodgers should retaliate against Mary Hart. You can throw over her head, but not at her legs.
2008-10-13 14:41:29
327.   Andrew Shimmin
I can't be expected to keep straight every ex-Oakland ringer floating around. Between Haren, Blanton, and Harden, it's like Beane spent the off-season specifically plotting to wreck the Dodgers' year.
2008-10-13 14:42:42
328.   Jacob L
Rays taking it to Sox at Fenway. File under: baseball is unpredictable.
2008-10-13 14:44:56
329.   Gen3Blue
Wait a minute, how can you play a playoff game with no arm in center field. How can you play it without one of the guys who got you there. If Joe is doing this to try to wake up Kemp, I think he is taking a huge risk.
2008-10-13 14:46:21
330.   Jacob L
327 it's like Beane spent the off-season specifically plotting to wreck the Dodgers' year.

Haren - didn't work
Harden - didn't work
Blanton - ??

If the Dodgers win tonight, we can conclude that Moneyball is a farce. No Moneyball team has successfully scattered its young pitchers around the league for the purpose of derailing the Dodgers in the pennant race/post-season.

2008-10-13 14:46:50
331.   MollyKnight
I think for one night only we need to suspend our disbelief and root for Juan Pierre. It serves our purpose immediately (as in a W tonight) and long-term (trade bait).

So go get 'em, Scrappy McPopup!

2008-10-13 14:46:53
332.   Lexinthedena
If the Dodgers beat the Phillies, and the Rays beat the Sox. How will the tone be on this board.

Will it be hard to root against our lil' darlins?

2008-10-13 14:47:27
333.   Gen3Blue
Not too bad a black hole, but more like a four man neutron star.
2008-10-13 14:48:37
334.   Brent Knapp
From Plaschke's Column Today:

"But to make sure Victorino understood him, moments later Kuroda ran over to first base while Victorino was grounding out to first baseman Ryan Howard."

Hmm, I didn't realize we had acquired Ryan Howard.

2008-10-13 14:50:33
335.   Lexinthedena
I think Kuroda ran over to first in case he needed to cover in the event that Ryan Howard decides to flip it to the pitcher.

Gawd! Plashke is horrible.

2008-10-13 14:50:35
336.   Bob Timmermann
Nomar has been putting on some weight.

And height.

And sitting out in the sun a lot.

2008-10-13 14:51:01
337.   ToyCannon
330
I like that angle.
2008-10-13 14:51:21
338.   caseybarker
I should have made this comment Friday, but it looked to me like Billingsley was missing Martin's target.

So, to me, pitch selection is not the answer to why Billingsley was bad Friday.

2008-10-13 14:51:30
339.   Humma Kavula
[returns from future]

More angst! We need more angst! The future I saw is not the future that must occur!

2008-10-13 14:52:28
340.   ToyCannon
334
Did the LA Times turn to the JC's for their editors?
2008-10-13 14:55:31
341.   ToyCannon
Cliff was off big on his Ray/Boston prediction today at SI. Maybe Lowe will do the job and make him 0-2. I hope we don't find out that Blanton is a big game postseason pitcher and that the Brewer game was just a sign of things to come.
2008-10-13 15:00:15
342.   Kevin Lewis
334

The replay showed Kuroda saying something to Victorino, and I think Shane was surprised to see him over there.

2008-10-13 15:02:57
343.   underdog
330 But wasn't it the Moneyball team that got rid of those guys for a lot of prospects, thus reinventing themselves (as they do perpetually)? I don't know if we can really reach that conclusion. But it's true Beane's traded ones could have wrecked the Dodgers season, and one of them still could tonight.
2008-10-13 15:03:01
344.   Andrew Shimmin
336- By the way, during the game thread yesterday I promised that you would send a prize to whoever won the first annual DT Rat vs. Mouse quiz competition. So, you owe Molly something. I didn't specify what, so you get to think up whatever it'll be, too.

You're welcome.

2008-10-13 15:03:41
345.   Frip
Shane carried on like a chihuahua last night. No one was impressed with his spastic sign language.
2008-10-13 15:06:22
346.   scareduck
330 - fire photon torpedos, er, pitchers!
2008-10-13 15:07:07
347.   JoeyP
nothing would help 2009 right now then to have Juan Pierre do some serious S & S work to make him tradeable while also helping us win a game

Which GM is going to decide Pierre's worth trading for due to 1 post season game?

2008-10-13 15:08:16
348.   JoeyP
Seriously, if Pierre went 5-5 tonight with 3 stolen bases, I dont think Brian Sabean's gonna be like "Whoa, we gotta trade for him".

On 2nd thought, its Sabean so anything is possible.

2008-10-13 15:08:34
349.   cargill06
347 Collet.... oh wait.
2008-10-13 15:09:42
350.   Alex41592
Torre on Pierre starting from Jim Alexander:

http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/prosports/2008/10/nlcs-torres-take-on-pierre-ove.html

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-10-13 15:13:22
351.   Lexinthedena
350

Pretty much what was expected. I don't mind Torre's reasoning.

2008-10-13 15:23:06
352.   regfairfield
350 Another way to spin that:

"In this series Kemp is hitting .273 with a double and two walks".

2008-10-13 15:26:25
353.   KG16
332 - I will have no problem rooting against the Rays. I will relish it, in fact.

But I'm a contrarian around here on that point. The Rays served their purpose in keeping the Yankees out of the playoffs - the rest of the AL is on notice for allowing the Red Sox in.

2008-10-13 15:27:07
354.   Jon Weisman
On Dodgers.com, the quote is: "Matt will probably be a part of it before the day is over."
2008-10-13 15:28:13
355.   alex 7
Guessing Kemp will be in by the 5th or 6th inning unless Pierre is 2-2. Probably part of a double switch.
2008-10-13 15:28:26
356.   underdog
354 Which makes a lot more sense.
2008-10-13 15:30:16
357.   Kevin Lewis
354

So, the double switch in the 6th or 7th?

2008-10-13 15:30:48
358.   Jon Weisman
355 - I'd guess later than that, but I'm splitting hairs.
2008-10-13 15:33:36
359.   Jon Weisman
Seven fined for Sunday night behavior. Kuroda's is $7,500.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-fines14-2008oct14,0,219393.story

2008-10-13 15:34:19
360.   alex 7
The main thing I will ask of Torre today is to have Lowe on a short leash. Kershaw, Maddux, and Park can handle 3 or 4 innings between them.
2008-10-13 15:35:27
361.   Sam DC
Maybe Tim McCarver would like to chip in for the fines?

$500 from Ken Rosenthal?

2008-10-13 15:35:41
362.   alex 7
Later than that if Pierre has done something positive. My guess was that Lowe comes out after 5 innings, 6 tops, and that's when Kemp comes in for defense or to hit that next inning.
2008-10-13 15:36:03
363.   Lexinthedena
360 Don't forget about Biemel and Kuo!
2008-10-13 15:36:20
364.   D4P
359
I wonder if ownership ever offers to pay individual fines when the behavior that inspired the fine was encouraged/mandated by management (either directly, or indirectly through some kind of unspoken "that's how we do things around here" milieu).
2008-10-13 15:36:35
365.   Andrew Shimmin
Did Bowa actually do anything, or are they just fining him out of habit?
2008-10-13 15:36:40
366.   Alex41592
And Clay Condrey...$ 0. If that (picture above) doesn't happen Kuroda has $7,500.
2008-10-13 15:37:40
367.   Andrew Shimmin
365 continued- Not that I'm opposed, either way.
2008-10-13 15:39:59
368.   Jon Weisman
I've read Torre indicate that Lowe is on a short leash.
2008-10-13 15:41:35
369.   Lexinthedena
Dodgers can throw a lot of different looks at the Phils tonight.

Cuban Tourny style baseball.

2008-10-13 15:41:54
370.   Alex41592
Torre also thinks those fines are ridiculous. He figured the time of the year enhanced the fine.
2008-10-13 15:43:56
371.   Alex41592
And Cory Wade is available but probably for just an inning.
2008-10-13 15:50:42
372.   Lexinthedena
371 I hope Corey Wade gets paid before Torre ruins his arm.
2008-10-13 15:52:03
373.   KG16
365 - Bowa should have been fined when Manny scored the one time, he was almost at home plate waving guys around. I thought Manny was going to run him over... which would have been funny in a regular season game.
2008-10-13 16:09:04
374.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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