Whatever happens, I've loved watching the Dodgers this year.

0 And images like that are why Dodger Thoughts will continue to be everyone's favourite place to "deal psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball" (and let it be said - life).
Thanks Jon!

0 and 1 You said it.

The Dodgers should go out and play Game 5 like the season depends on it, and win or lose, they can hold their heads up high.

We have made our season ticket deposit for next year.

Nice perspective check, Jon. :-)

I've got a purring cat in my lap and "Mad Men" on my Tivo, so I will use that to gain further perspective.

It's been a fun ride, and I have faith it won't be over for awhile longer. But for now... life has other things to offer us.

I was watching this one on television with Spawn of Kavula (11 months on Thursday). She also enjoyed the Blake homer beyond her own comprehension. The first six innings of this game, watching with my family, was a true joy.

1 I agree. The Dodgers 2008 has been a great year, no matter what else happens. We showed we were credible threats to be world champions. Just a really small amount of luck more here and there and the Dodgers would have done even better, but the team is fundamentally pretty good and the future is bright. (As long as somebody continues Manny's Aug-Sep pace for all of 2009, .400 with 50 HR and 160 RBI, but let's not think about that now.)

Back to the earlier thread - comparing baseball to basketball is totally wrong. You fall down 3-1 w/o home court in hoops - you are done. Completely. There are tons of examples of teams winning 6 and 7 on the road - Pitt in 79 I think, KC over Toronto in 85, Fish over Cubs in 03, Sox over Yanks in 04. I'm sure there's more. If we could somehow get to game 7, they'd have a ton of pressure on them.

This was an epic night of Dodger baseball. It's going to have a prominent place in my memory archives.

0 That's a great image. Thanks again (and again, and again) for this site. I've been following the Dodgers all my life but this place has somehow heightened my fandom, though I would have never guessed that was possible.

Let's get 'em on Wednesday!

Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes, well he eats you.

"Jon Weisman's outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball."

I don't have a 6 1/2-month-old son, but I was 10 when Jack Clark crushed all of our hearts.

I feel 10 again.

I had typed out a rational post that could give a different perspective to all the second guessing but then I erased it all.

In short, I have been reading 'Fooled By Randomness' lately and its important to not question what could've been rational decisions simply because they had devastating results.

IMO, the worst tactical move with hit and run with Juan Pierre in the 2nd. Why not just let a top-5 base stealer make decisions?

Let's face it, the Phillies are better than the Dodgers. Philadelphia's lineup is extremely potent, and if you fall behind in the count, they make you pay. Even their pinch-hitters are scary.

The Phillies deserve to play in the World Series, so an early congrats goes out to them and their fans.

I hate looking for excuses after losing games, but there are a couple things I'll always remember about Game 4...

--Why did Torre pull Derek Lowe after five innings? Certainly Lowe had one more inning in him, didn't he? Lowe was cruising in innings two through five.

--Why did Torre pull Kuo after Howard's leadoff single in the eighth? I'll take my chances with Kuo over Wade/Broxton any day -- especially considering Wade pitched two innings the night before. Kuo is one of the best relief pitchers in the majors, and he had an EASY seventh inning.

--I hate to say it, but the Dodgers might have to seriously consider giving Manny Ramirez the 5-year, $125 million contract he so covets. We just don't have much of an offense without him, and frankly I don't see it getting a whole lot better in the years to come. Without Manny, we're probably a .500 team again next season.

I don't mean to say that this loss isn't devastating. I haven't yet gotten over it, despite what I'm about to say...

Game 5 has the potential to be the most fun game of the season. The Dodgers' chances of advancing to the World Series are so small that I've almost -- almost -- given up. Not quite... but I certainly recognize that it's extremely likely that this year isn't the Dodgers' year. Still, there's this tiny shread of possibility, and it comes to fruition on Wednesday in Game 5. A win is a huge morale boost, and a loss is something that was probably coming anyway. Game 5 will be the lowest risk, highest reward game of the season, and when you consider the fact that it's Billingsley vs. Hamels, that's even better. It could be the most fun game of the year.

From last thread:

1074 "Yikes, Alice. I take it you're too young to have suffered through the Jack Clark game or the Joe Morgan game and countless other painful memories?"

Yeah, but if you suffered through the Jack Clark HR, chances are that you also were "suffering" when Tommy sent up Mike Davis to hit against Dennis Eckersley. Fans my age don't have that luxury.

things could be much worse, guys. we could be watching the D'Backs with a 3-1 lead in the NLCS.

One thing that the Dodger's offense glaringly lacks is power. While the Phillies won tonight's game on two swings of the bat, other than Manny, there is really no one on the Dodgers that is a consistent power threat. Kemp, Ethier, Loney, Martin, Furcal, DeWitt, are all 15-20 a year homer guys, and the team really needs at least two legitimate 30+ homer threats to make this a top rate offense. Even if they sign Manny, I think they need one more bopper.

Hopefully Broxton doesnt get a mental block ala Lidge/Pujols for the next few years.

That ball Stairs hit was one of the longest homers I've ever seen hit at DS.

Wade's been great all season. Not giving up homers. It had to end at some point.

The Jack Clark HR was my first year as a fan. I spent the rest of fall with Tom Neidenfuer's baseball card on my bike spokes. It can be a gut wrenching game, but if you had told me 3 months ago we'd be down 3-1 in the NLCS - I'd ask "where do I sign and how much do I have to pay."

I'm excited for Game 5 - primarily for Bills. He's got a shot to bounce back and show the rest of the country just what a great pitcher he is (in case they missed the first series).

Baseball is so random, there's no telling how this will end up.

Why, oh Why did they pull Kuo? One little harmless single in the 8th, he was the most dominating reliever they had tonight!! I feel bad for Wade because he has been great for us all year, unforunate pitch selection allowed Victorino just enough power to pull that ball over the gate.

Well, backs against the wall now! Got to play with nothing to lose, balls out!! Try to win your last home game at least!! Still it was one of the most aggravating losses I've witnessed in awhile. Just when they got my hopes up to the zenith, they sent them crashing into despair!! Broxton throwing that total "meat fastball" to a veteran pinch-hitter like Stairs on 3-1! He had a better chance to walk him and pitch to Rollins!! The 8th inning nightmare started with Torre walking out to relieve Kuo, Damn!!

I'm at least glad that people are reporting that Torre is getting criticized. I just couldnt understand most of the stuff he did tonight. Pulling a well rested Hong-Chih Kuo who was throwing absolutely brilliantly for a tired, overworked righty with average stuff who relies on location and deception is just a move that I will never be able to understand. Cory Wade has been a revelation this year and I do not blame tonight's outcome on him. He has been great each time he was called upon. He was just called on one too many times, and it might have cost the dodgers their season.

Re 1079 of the game thread:

You might try the '85 Royals. Came back from 3-1 in both the AL playoff and the WS. But we don't have Danny Jackson to say, We shocked the house!, when the team wins it all.

Lastly, for one and all, for Joe to say that if he had it to do all over again...

For what makes it inexcusable, well, in his post-game remarks Joe referenced Kuo's arm woes and said something about how every time he pitches he feels something. Fine. Then why on earth warm him yesterday and then not bring him in? Pathetic.

21 . It is well known that Torre is not a good tactical manager, and that bullpen use is one of his weaker points. This was a criticism of him all through his Yankee years.

Another thing about the Kuo issue and then I'm done for the night. why in the world have him bat with men on 1st and 2nd and 1 out and then have him stay in for only 1 batter? The plan couldnt have been for him to sacrifice bunt and waste an out and then only face Howard if Howard gets on. A 2 run lead isnt much as we saw, and giving away an out so Kuo could face one batter was another huge mistake. Either you let him sacrifice and complete the next inning or you lift him for a pinch hitter in that spot. Too bad Kemp's rocket (or Dewitt's, or Martin's) didnt find a gap because then I doubt we are having this conversation and would be talking about our advantage the rest of the way.

I haven't given up hope yet, but a Rays-Phillies World Series would be really strange to see.

It was a weird night at the Park. Crowd didn't even wake up until the 3rd or 4th inning. I'm not blaming him and I will stick by the one who brung me this far, but when Russell Martin hit into the DP, you could feel the energy suck right out of Dodger Stadium. Kuo was awesome and while I subscribe to the "go with the hot hand" strategy of managing the bullpen, I can't fault Wade or Torre's decision to bring him in.

I'm too young for Jack Clark and Joe Morgan.

The Matt Stairs shot genuinely hurt me. I thought he had retired until he stepped up to the plate.

How can Broxton look like Charlize Theron one night and Rosanne Barr the next?

Yeah why did Kuo get pulled? I thought that was a bad decision too.

28
Based on the amount of beer you drink?

ulcadodger hit it on the head. It just doesn't make sense to let Kuo hit with 2 runners on and then pull him after a single to Howard. Howard couldn't tie the game and after him was a stack of right handed hitters. Either Kuo should have had more rope or he should have been pinch hit for. But the bottom line is that the Dodgers went 11-34 with 8 walks (a nice team .obp) plus 5 or 6 ropes right at people. They should have won the game but baseball is designed to break your heart.

According to what I heard Torre say he wasn't questioned much. When Kuo warmed up in the 8th, he didn't look sharp and Torre, if he is telling the truth was only going to give him one batter. I think you just needed to give Kuo another batter or even two.....As far as the team goes for next year, just as the Phillies improved and the Red Sox improved, you usually need to get into the playoffs two years in a row, and I think that is what I am counting on.

Man it feels like 1985. I hope that Wade and/or Broxton don't become unmentionable names around me like Mr. Give up to Clark's name is. I hope there is redemption for the team on Wednesday. I don't want Philly to be dancing on our field.

We will have 4 months to discuss the off season. Let's hold off on declaring this season DOA until we are actually done.

When Broxton fell behind 3-1 to Stairs, and was winding up for the next pitch, I turned to my brother, "I don't have a good feeling about this."

I think Stairs has been around long enough to know what was coming and hammered it. He'd probably made up his mind to swing no matter what was coming.

11 That is a terrific book that I have mentioned here before. I highly recommend it to everybody but especially baseball fans. Really helps you understand a game like that. Or even a season like this.

34 Agreed!

Though right now I wish I was in that car heading to Palm Springs instead of Don Draper.

There are so many factors that contributed to this loss, it's almost impossible to really point to one as the conclusive reason why this happened. I'll just say that the crowd was absolutely laconic for the first couple of innings. We got down 2-0 because the Phillies slapped our generally lazy, text messaging fans in the face when we weren't looking. Then, we can always talk about RISP failures when we're talking about the Dodgers. DeWitt was non-existent; and Martin (who I do NOT believe should be in the 4 spot, like EVER) hit into a deflating double-play to crush any forward momentum. We had a couple opportunities to extend our 5-3 lead and failed rather miserably -- that proved to be suicide. A 2 run lead is just not comforting. Then, the bullpen merry-go-round. My, oh, my. That was active mismanagement of Quo if I've ever seen it. Torre warmed him up yesterday, then nothing. Now he pitches him tonight, he was LIGHTS OUT, leaves him into bat (okay...?), and then pulls him with one out -- which ultimately spawned a downhill roller coaster of horror with Wade and Brox. Just too much fumbling around, methinks. I do not believe that we can pull off 3 in a row against this team, but I'm darn proud of what we accomplished this year. (And hey, Pierre McSlappy got some good hits tonight!) Anyway, I'll be rooting my guts out on Wednesday, but this was a game that can be best described as: SQUANDERED.

I think we win on Wed. Reasons why:

1. Day off favors Dodgers. Time to regroup and rest.

2. Bills is at his best when his is relaxed.

3. Dodgers have nothing to lose.

4. Hamels is overdue to lose.

I think we will Wed as well, but I doubt we win 2 in Philly.

First the lakers blow a 26 point lead in the finals and now this one. Ouch. Good to know both teams are young and have bright futures. So we hope.

38. You are probably right but one step at a time.

I think what makes this worse for me is not having Vin do the play by play. Maybe I should have held soccer practice tonight. sigh. Well here is to a minor miracle happening the rest of the week.

Sounds like we're all in agreement that Kuo should've been left in. Motion carried.

44 - And Lowe.

You rock, Jon, posts like this (especially right when it's needed most) are the reason this is the best baseball blog on the 'net. I really am rooting, for the collective sanity of DTers everywhere, that Billz has more luck against the Phils tomorrow than he did in Game 2 because I don't think DT is ready to go into postseason mode quite yet...

25 - Stranger than, say, Rockies v Red Sox, Yankees vs Marlins/DBacks, ChiSox v Astros or Angels v Giants were?

Really looking forward to the next game and the rest of the series, as I am rooting for the boys. I just wish that I could make sense of Torre's moves that don't seem to be helpful. Though he is should be able to pitch two nights in a row, I thought that Broxton was wasted last night. I would have tried to conserve him as I (wrongly) thought that Joe wouldn't bring in Wade tonight. Both Lowe and Kuo were pulled too soon for my taste, as well. Finally, Joe tried to give away outs by having both Kemp and Rafi sacrafice. The Fillies wouldn't take the outs, but the baseball gods did with our subsequent line drives. He seems to have a different game in his head and a different feeling in his gut than I do. Oh well, we'll get em next time.

Just got back from a great evening with Eric Stephen, Jacob Burch and MC Safety. Okay, an almost great evening. I don't know if it is because of the excellent company I was able to keep tonight, or something else I don't quite understand yet, but I don't feel that bad about this game.

My sentiments are the same as those already stated by many posters already tonight. It's been a fantastic season even if we have won our last game. It's been so exciting to have these three playoff experiences, and to share two of them with my kids and one with fellow DT'ers. I know my kids will never forget the two wins, but I'm not sure if MC Safety will recover from this one. Chin up, MC!

I said to the guys tonight as Torre came ot for Kuo that I was afraid that Wade had become Torre's new Proctor and that he may be pushing Cory too far. Kuo just looked so dominant, it seemed a shame to pull him. But whatever, it is entirely possible to win the next three.

Thanks Eric, for the ticket and also to Jacob, MC Safety and bhsportsguy and Joe for spending time at lunch. A great day with a disappointing ending. Not the first time and it won't be the last.

Good post Jon. I can't let go of this. The Dodgers had the best season in 20 years, but this doesn't make tonight hurt less.

I might be the only guy who thinks the Phillies aren't that good. They earned everything they got, but at the end of the day, I'm not convinced by any of their starters besides Hamels, and their lineup has its own 'bouts of streakiness.

What we saw from the bullpen tonight was a choke, plain and simple. What we saw from Joe Torre was a mistake, plain and simple. But... what we saw from our hitters tonight was heart, determination, and a look that says "I want to win!"

The bullpen will NEVER implode like that the rest of the year. The Starting Pitching mostly held up. Let's just enjoy every last out of baseball left in Dodgertown, however many outs that may be.

In 8th inning Sunday, I said: I pray Joe doesn't use Broxton in the 9th. My friend asks why? Because why use your 2 best relievers in a blowout when you might really need them the next day -- especially if you're starting your old pitcher on 3-days rest and will need your 'pen.

I'm not trying to brag -- you don't know who I am and I wish I was wrong. It's just if so many fans can see these things......why oh why is major league managing so bad and slow to develop? coaching in other sports, while somtimes bad, is so much more advanced.

44 sorry about the loss, bro. just getting in from work and saw the score. i haven't checked out what happened at the game yet, but will do so soon. i was pullin' for ya tongiht, man. thought you'd get a W, for certain... : (

23 yes, please don't get me started about torre and his bullpen 'managing'. i come from bronx banter and my stomach has suffered waaaay too many calls to the 'pen by that man! i love him dearly, but good god, he can't manage a bullpen. i'm sorry you've had to deal with Sturtze and (every day) Scott Proctor...

I'm sitting here trying to maintain some sort of perspective as I ponder what just happened in Game 4. Tonight's meltdown doesn't crack my top 3 of personally devastating Dodger losses. That unholy trinity of defeats continues to include (1) the '82 season-ender in San Francisco, (2) Game 6 of the '85 NLCS, and (3) Game 4 of the '78 World Series. But while tonight's setback doesn't quite equal those infamous losses, I think it could crack my personal top 5. It's been a very long time since I felt so demoralized following a Dodger loss (primarily because it's been two decades since the Dodgers played in a game with so much at stake). Tonight's game reminded me once again that the line between unbounded joy and bottomless despair can be an awfully thin one. This is especially true with respect to October baseball.

I just realized something. The next game will be 20 years to the day that Kirk Gibson hit his HR. It would be a shame if that was the day we got eliminated.

I don't think it was an issue with Broxton pitching yesterday, he came in, got behind and Stairs hit a fastball.

If he doesn't pitch yesterday, Broxton would have gone 9 days between pitching Game 3 of the NLDS and Game 4 of the NLCS.

If Broxton can't pitch back to back after more than a week off, then the Dodgers can't win a playoff series.

The consolation I take away from this game is that every baseball fan knows this feeling. Its what makes every game, even the easy ones, excruciating. I never watch a game without thinking "What if our guys give up a pair of two run homers here? What then?" I certainly thought that at some point last night.

Anyhow, we've still got a game on Wednesday, so lets try to win it.

Torre did fine, the bullpen blew-up, it happens.

dkminnick, Jacob Burch, and Eric Stephen=good people.

This song sums up my feelings quite nice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgv08gsexfc

the bullpen blew up cause Torre happened.

Broxton can throw 100mph, but it seems his pitches don't have enough movement. I think if there was a breaking ball he had in his arsenal to throw for a strike, the Stairs at-bat would've had a different outcome.

It behooves him to develop a breaking pitch to throw for a strike, if he is to take the next step as a reliever.

59 - He has that pitch. It's his slider.

58 We'll just have to disagree on this one.

53 Maybe we should have Nancy Reagan throw out the first pitch. Seemed to work when she did it 20 years ago.

60 Yeah, but does he throw it for strikes? I've seen him throw it mostly to get hitters out after getting ahead in the count (with two strikes).

48 Quality post. Thanks for the nice words, Doug. This one is going to sting for a while.

Totally BH. My take is simple; let Lowe go and let Kuo go. One guy was lifted for a 20 year old and the other for a guy who threw 33 pitches the night before and both guys were looking fine..But yeah (being serious) what do I know?

Something just felt out of sync with the lineup tonight. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but personally, I hated DeWitt in that 6 spot. Coupled with Martin in the 4 spot. Just wanky and strange. And what have you, both of them had hideous evenings at the plate.

Criticisms after this game are fair play, but I am overly pleased to see the majority of comments thus far being of the coping variety than the Pierre/Kuo/Headache. That's why I love this site the most, it can really calm the nerves.

My heart is shot, but like Doug said, I have an odd feeling of the game. I told Eric that it felt like a war story game. Listening to Jon, BH, Bob and the rest of you talk of Jack Clark and all the great moments--up and down--in Dodger history, all I ever had to cling to was 4+1--a game I didn't attend and was only half watching live. In baseball, my beloved sport, I have no memory of true success or true heartbreak--just long years of mediocrity. I can say in ten years that with eye-witness precision that Shane Victorino was the most hated man in LA, and Matt Stairs right after him.

My heart is sunk, but I can't regret going--especially in impeccable company. Outside of one guy trying to start a wave and an extremely rude off-putting comment from a fellow Dodger fan, the night was unaltered from anything outside the game--I didn't eat anything, traffic was fine, I had nothing on my mind but baseball, and nothing touched my heart but the swing of a bat and a throw of a ball. This only broke on moments where the three excellent gentlemen I was with said or did something, anything, to cheer us up.

With all of that said (I feel like I may write more on the history of heartbreak later), this is all on Eric.

ES: "Man, they're burning through their bench. Who do they have left?"

JB: "Coste and Matt Stairs."

ES: "Matt Stairs! I'm surprised they haven't used him yet, he's pretty good."

My view on Torre's cascade of mistakes:

#1 Sending Matt Kemp up to bunt as a PH with JP on second. If Torre wanted a bunt, he could have put in someone else and not created the lure of the double-switch to put Kemp in defensively and bring up the pitcher one place earlier.

That cascaded into Torre having to have Kuo bunt with two on and one out, rather than allowing Kemp to swing away in JP's place with one out that could have caused a Sac-Fly or a two run hit.

#2 Using a short hook on Kuo after he just wasted an out with Kuo bunting, which cascades into bringing in Wade who pitched too much the day before. That, in turn, cascades into bringing in Broxton with a man on and two out.

Sure, the bullpen blew up all over, but I don't see Torre as blameless here. He mismanaged the offense in favor of questionable moves for pitching...

54 The problem with Broxton was, well, look at the video replay. Pitch was just where Martin wanted it. Matt Stairs has made a living on crushing just that pitch. Old school taught new school that 100 mph isn't all that it's cracked up to be, well, that and to mind their manners.

I just pored over all 1200 or so comments, after returning from the game, reliving every roller coaster moment.

I feel a little better. Thanks, everyone.

I got to spend this weekend with my twin baby granddaughters, 4 1/2 months old, and I have to say, baby love has greatly alleviated my normally unbearable Dodger post-season angst.

And reading Jon's Takeaway post was just right. Someday soon I hope to have two little girls at the game for Vinnie to ooh and ahh over.

Meanwhile, I'll be back out there on Wednesday, hooting and hollering.

What a great season.

I'd put this video on my blog which I think might cheer y'all up. Enjoy (on several levels)!

http://tinyurl.com/4azr55

Sorry, this is the direct link, use this:

http://tinyurl.com/3mj6yz

Who put the goat in there?

Two hours back from the game and a few purging comments later, I'm sick of feeling depair. Let's do what we need to do on Wednesday, then tackle the behemoth that is "beating Philly in Philly." If we can just get on that flight to the East Coast, I am happy with the remaining pitching matchups that loom on the horizon. Who cares what happens? Seriously. We've defied our expectations, and we've certainly eviscerated that horrendous feeling we digested when we endured that 8 game losing streak in late August. We thought we were DONE, then we fought our way to the Division Title and through the NLDS unscathed. Tell me THAT at the beginning of the season, and I would have laughed myself to the brink of veritable insanity. Now, we're deep into the NLCS, and we're in a hole. Fine, whatever! Destroy the critics and dig deep! I'll be screaming on Wednesday come hell or high water. Now, I'm going to get in bed with my wife and smother her with optimism!

Victorino is rapidly becoming the Brian Doyle of this series.

Who he?
http://tinyurl.com/47393b

Not sure what I can add to the fantastic posts here. Great game, sucky ending. It was my first time attending a playoff game and it was awesome even though the wrong team won.

I blame this loss on the drunken fool in my section of the Top Deck. Between the 7th and 8th innings, the guy comes around telling everyone about the hot girl he brought to the game and how he's gonna impress her by starting the Wave. When he finally gets around to starting it, he brings the girl out with him and tries to put her up on his shoulders...right in front of the railing at the bottom of the steps. Practically the entire section starts shouting "NO, NO!" and people start jumping up to make sure he doesn't actually lift the girl onto his shoulders and accidentally drop her over the railing.

As all this is going on: BAM! Home run Victorino. Then: BAM! Home run Stairs. Yep, that's what did it all right. Just thought you'd like to know. :)

72 your pundit got armor! that was awesome, underdog. i couldn't stomach the whole song though - Indian pop & film music is some of the worst garbage i've ever heard.

on the flip side, Indian Classical music - both Hindustani & Carnatic - is some of the absolute greatest music ever ever ever ever and i've studied it over the years, thoroughly enjoying it!

74 a brian doyle reference, i love it! i remember seeing him at Yankee Stadium when i was a little boy, around the same year as that article. in fact, i still have a picture of him in the batting circle at my parents house. i think victorino is a much better player than brian doyle (or bucky 'bleeping' dent of fred "chicken" stanley), but i see your point...

75 Hey, us four were near you! We also blamed the wave-starter as the jinx. But it was really Eric. Trust me!

Hah hah. 75 meet 67