That being said, however, there's no guarantee that the Dodgers will necessarily continue to improve upon their initial offer to Manny.

John: you've put the right perspective on the negotiation right there. Two years is what the Dodgers could count on from Manny if they don't want to assume they'll eat unproductive (or less productive) years. I'd be satisfied with 2-4 years of a contract, but if it takes five or six, walk away, Neddy, walk away...

Yet again, the Angels quietly showed yesterday why Moreno is a better owner than McCourt by not even offering Teixeira anything during their negotiating window. They knew that Boras would simply take it to the Yankees and get them to improve upon it.

I cant remember the last time the Dodgers had 2 really bad contracts (like Pierre/Druw) that severely hamper what they can do.

And that makes no mention of Jason Schmidt's deal.

I say that because they are really just your average fan that is knowledgeable, but not overboard on the inner workings of the team and stats like the rest of us here.

I hope there are many more fans out there with that type of common sense to realize all of these factors of age, attitude, money, etc.

But in reality, that $22.5 million salary would make Ramirez the highest paid outfielder in the majors. And there is no evidence, yet, that any other team is going to get involved at that level in the Ramirez bidding. So if you're sitting in Frank McCourt's seat, you will feel the pressure created by the Boras-shaped perception that this offer is low -- but considering the state of the finances in the NL West, and given the size of the offer already made, what would compel you to make a larger offer?

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3697617&name=olney_buster

Some credit is due JP in the fielding results, although it is not a huge sample.
I have to say I had a bit of trouble reconciling Ethier's below average results with what my eyes tell me. I'm sure some of this has to do with the fact that getting the ball and what you do afterwards are not always related. I can't say I was always paying great attention as I watched most of the games this year, but I often seemed to see Ethier get the ball in good position and make a quick, strong and accurate throw. This doesn't show in most fielding stats, but it sure influences how I feel about an outfielder.

It'll be kinda amusing to see the six year offer come from the Nats.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-hollidayanalysis111108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

If they never released what they offered Manny and he gets signed by another team, fans and media will never believe that the team was ever going to sign him again.

The Brewers said early on that they were going to make CC an offer, well its now 1 day before other teams can negotiate with him and we still don't know if that ever happened.

I think the basis of my initial complaint (or insult, if you will) was that I don't get the impression that there will be a counter negotiation. When I received word of the 3/60, which I thought was a 2 year deal with a 3rd year option, I felt that was Ned's final offer.

The responses have insinuated that this is merely a precursor to a bigger contract offer to Manny. If that's the case, then I would be happy to take back what I said earlier.

I want to re-iterate that even if L.A. doesn't sign Manny, it won't be the end of the World. Like many of you, if given the choice, I'd much rather grab onto Sabathia and hope he doesn't blow his arm out.

Likewise, I see good reason for the Dodgers to be tepid about signing an aging 37 year old DH to a long term contract. L.A. is already torched with two similar contracts to Pierre and Jones. It seems like Manny's stay with any team ends badly, and the Dodgers have a golden opportunity to let the trainwreck pass them by and hit another clubhouse.

So...

I may be underestimating Ned and Frank, et. al. with their contract negotiation. Making a deal with Boras is not easy. I was just hoping the Dodgers didn't lowball Ramirez in their contract talk. I probably erred in letting my emotion cloud judgement of Manny in 2009.

I appreciate this forum for offering counter-points to my points.

Well, releasing the details of a low offer sends the same message: that the team has no interest in signing him. If you dont release anything, at least there's still some mystery there.

I'm still wondering why they leaked the "no deals greater than 3yrs" thing to the press too. Its almost like they're sending a message to season ticket holders that havent re-upped yet--"Dont get your expectations up for the 2009 year".

I'm a little late to this conversation, but I have one question and one comment.

The question is (along the lines of 22 ) do we know how much of this is the Dodgers leaking and how much is the media just inventing (er, speculating)? For me, unless I see a Dodger official on camera, I just don't believe anything I hear about the personnel stuff.

The comment is about what the team would gain by leaking the offer. I think that in this case, the fact THAT the team made Ramirez an offer needed to be publicized, to satisfy his local fans. But it's more than that. Manny Ramirez is, as we know, a little different than most people, even more Boras clients. He seems to want to be loved, and not only in terms of money. I think LA's only chance of landing him is if he really wants to play here (money would have to be close, but not necessarily the top bid). For that reason, leaking a fast and big first offer might have been done not only to reassure fans, but to let Manny know that everyone knows that the team loves him. It's one thing to declare your love in private. It's quite another to do so in public.

Just a thought.

Perhaps a Dodger thought?

Can we get some control over in the front office?

The Dodgers have re-set the opening level of the overall market for Manny, as astutely recognized by Dan310 in 26 .

I do not know the inner workings of FA negotiations across the league, but by going public, they also may prevent Boras from inflating the Dodgers' offer when talking to other teams. (Does this kind of thing happen in FA negotiations? I know it does in the music biz).

Personally, I think going public was a smart move by the Dodgers. If Manny accepts a deal for less than Boras's (sic?) wild demands, I think they will be proven right.

Should be Dunn

The answer may surprise you.

The fact that Dunn is only 10 days older is shocking to me though.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3698215

What does that say about the state of the NL West?

They still need some luck like hitting the middle reliever lottery, but the Giants have the resources to get right back in to a really bad division.

What is MannyMaketing you ask?

Just picture Manny with a "Free Credit Report.Com" logo on his back.

or maybe

"Pink's Hot Dogs"

Splashed in a tasteful Hot Pink lettering on the Manny's back.

Frank, you Scott and Bud need to get this deal done, MannyMarketing will 'GeterDone. 5 Years, 6, heck make it 10 years, everyone wins with MannyMarketing.

This was brought up before but I'm not sure why the D-Rays dont get involved in the Jake Peavy sweepstakes. They can beat the Braves offer, and a rotation of Peavy/Kazmir/Price/Shields/Garza would be unreal.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1083271/

The Giants gave at least 100 at bats to guys with these OPS+es: 84, 75, 46, 78, 82, 35, 66. That's over 1000 plate appearances given to dead weight. If they get rid of all that, which they're capable of, they can see a huge improvement.

Peavy is guaranteed $60m over the next 4 years.

Peavy's relatively low $8m price tag in 2009 makes it tempting to "go for it" in 2009, but they are building for a longer-term run and they probably figure the prospects they get by trading him next winter are not the caliber of the prospects they would have to give up this winter.

It is an intriguing thought, though. That rotation would be ridiculous.

I think the Dodgers will def. sign Manny for 3 years.

Who knows, though, he might still get a few votes for ROY. :)

Yet another BBWAA writer that should be stripped of voting rights.

2 - Another club offers Manny say 4/$100, and Boras insinuates he won't take just a slightly better offer to Manny, it's got to be a lot better (see Pierre, Juan).

My question is this: Is an agent duty bound to relay all offers to their client?

I ask because there was an impression that Ned had to substantially upgrade the SF offer on the table to Juan Pierre (3 years / $27 million or so). This implies that if Ned offered 3 years / $30 million, Juan's agent would not have relayed this offer to Juan. Hence, Ned's offer of 5/$46.

Dude, that is so not comfortable.

Tony Jackson just posted that on his blog.

http://tinyurl.com/6mhn87

Unless he's on order to reduce/sustain payroll, I'm highly skeptical he's comfortable with that OF. He may have no real choice in the matter, which is the more likely explanation if he really means it, but I don't think "comfortable" is an accurate description.

The issue of what or when makes a player not go back to his team for a final offer, or if an agent allows this has always been for me the most interesting question. I think in the Manny situation it is in their best interest to go back to the Dodgers to get a larger offer since the "fit" between the Dodgers and Manny seems to be pretty good. I do wonder if Manny has told Boras, "I want the largest and longest contract, or if there is any other requirements that Manny has given Boras a list of teams he wants to play for."

Dude, this market is out of whack.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

It seems to that this is the most fundamental requirement for choosing Boras as your agent (or perhaps for him choosing you).

>> Before the 2008 season began, MLB.com took an in-depth look at every big league team's Minor League system. Now it's time to recap and analyze all 30 organizations, from top prospects to the recent Draft class. <<

http://tinyurl.com/69beya

And that is why I hope my son is a lefty.

4 bbs in 145 MLB abs last year. Yeah, thats not good.

He'll be 22yrs old next year so he's got room to improve, although nothing in his minor league past suggest he'll learn plate discipline.

Ishikawa should give the Giants some James Loney-type production, which is at least better than what they got from Bowker.

Of course he's going to call it inadequate, and he's arguing for more years using Barry Bonds as a comparison (flawed, because a juicer can have a longer career than a natural). But I hadn't picked up on any rancor yet. Did I miss something?

For what it's worth, I don't see the Dodger offer being topped by a lot unless the Yankees get into it. The idea that Bowden would go all out to get Ramirez for a team that can't even get a decent TV deal seems crazy. And why would Ramirez want to play for a rebuilding team that will probably be pretty lousy for a couple more years?

Dunn's presence on the market also dilutes attention on Ramirez -- a cheaper, younger, credible alternative, not a HOF player, but a good hitter entering his prime. No team is going to make a do or die offer to Manny while Dunn is still out there.

67
Given the budget they pretty much have to go that route if they don't sign Manny. It would basically be the same configuration we had last spring except we know that Ethier and Kemp are the givens this time.

there's parity in the division, but i don't think that makes it bad. granted, no one did terribly well outside the division...

It's not like the NL Central that has the Reds, Cards, and Pirates giving everyone an extra 15 wins. Or the AL West, with three teams that just ceded the division to the Angels.

Probably so. There was no way that Boras was going to accept ANY offer made during the exclusive negotiation window, all you're doing is setting the floor for when he finally does make it to the larger market, as Boras clients always do. Frankly, you don't want to make that floor price very high at all.

And it's Top Chef night.

Or you can do what I do, and er, illegally download it. >> <<

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3698735

Somewhere Joe Beimel just opened a bottle of bubbly.

Guess Manny took Ortiz' words to heart, with T.J. Simers.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/11/papi_opens_up_o.html

Manny finished 6th in 2001. Giambi wins MVP that year.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Dodgertown.html

>> "Beginning Friday, I will begin, for the first time, taking serious offers," said Scott Boras, who represents Ramirez.

Though Boras declined to comment on the Dodgers' offer, it appears that he doesn't think it falls in that category. <<

http://tinyurl.com/5dxbd9

Is it too much to ask for GMs to respond by saying that they hope Manny and his agent start publicizing reasonable contract demands in the near future?

(recall he said: "Gas is up and so am I" at the conclusion of the season when asked about his contract)

It seems like recently Boras has been asking the world for Jeff Weaver and Kyle Lohse and gotten nothing of it. For the most part the Boras clients that are getting paid deserve it.

122
He had a brutal start but was awesome after June 29th. That change up of his might last longer then Broxton's fastball.

Barring any extensions, etc.

Huh, actually. I really hope the Dodgers sign C.C. next year since other than Webb, and maybe Lackey, I am scared of that FA pitching after 2009.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/05/2010-free-agents.html

Andruw Jones! Jason Schmidt!

JD Drew?

Vlad will be useless to the Dodgers at that point though, since he'll be mostly a DH.

comment 268:
https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1174804.html#comments

I was convinced too.

I suppose the Andruw Jones boat is the Titanic. Or is that Zito?

Both, given that they're sunk costs. {cue rimshot}

It's a black mark on the history of the city, but there's really almost nothing the Dodgers could have done.

That would be my counterargument.

If you want to give him a shorter deal than other teams for more money, then I am all for it.

There were some holdouts who hadn't taken the eminent buyout. So O'Malley had to buy them out. They made out pretty well.

I do not know if the property still has a covenant on it that would prevent the McCourts from putting up condos in the parking lot if they so chose.

As far as I know, it went well, but I missed it due to food poisoning.

Of course, he could be lying, but I do not think he is.

Fare thee well, man. 62 is waaaaay too young. You were an absolutely phenomenal musician and a solid citizen. I can't quite imagine that you're not there now. Guess I'd better get used to it.

M. Timmermann -- I, for one, am really glad that Billy Cox is still drawing breath and playing music. My favorite Hendrix music is the stuff he was working on right before he died, with both Cox and Mitchell.

Seems to me that given C.C.'s physical stature a GM would be wise to try and sign him to a deal with one or two player options (like Depo gave JD). Perhaps a 6 year deal (25 per) with options after the 2nd and 4th year. Giving C.C. the best of both worlds in terms of a secure long term deal (6 years) plus the benefits of a short term deal should be very attractive to top free agent.

Sure the GM would take some heat from the fans when the reigning CY Young opts out in 2 years, but who the hell wouldn't want C.C. for the next 2 years?

"Fire"
"I Don't Live Today"
"Third Stone from the Sun"
"Axis: Bold as Love"
"Little Miss Lover"
"Gypsy Eyes"
The 'Aquatic Suite' from the 'Electric Ladyland' LP
Any live version of "Red House"
'First Rays of the New Rising Sun' tracks: "Night Bird Flying," "In From the Storm," "Jam Back at the House"

Man, this cuts deep. My favorite musician's ideal collaborator has been yanked away out of nowhere.

I hope they're jamming right now. (What's that old line from The Simpsons ? -- Ben Franklin scoring a knock-hockey goal in heaven and saying "That's game, Hendrix.")

I don't know if this makes Moreno a better owner. There are different ways to negotiate, and perhaps Manny would have been insulted if the Dodgers didn't make any offer at all, or perhaps he would have had the impression the Dodgers didn't really want to retain him.

What this does us prove the validity of Jon's point -- it would be stupid to try to make a high offer at this point.

>> With the exclusive negotiating window for clubs and their free agents closing Thursday night, Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti on Wednesday said Manny Ramirez still has not responded to the initial offer he delivered last week to agent Scott Boras.

"I have not heard back," he said. "I need to hear their reaction to the offer." <<

## Interviewed on Los Angeles radio station KLAC-AM earlier Wednesday, Colletti said the Dodgers' offer to Ramirez was "a great starting point that showed a strong commitment to him." ##

http://tinyurl.com/6ektqk

That said, I'm OK with a pitching-and-defense solution that revolves around CC, provided the Dodgers do find a decent solution for the infield.

The deadline to submit their reserve lists for Rule V draft purposes is a week from tomorrow (11/20).

Its doubtful the Dodgers will have a full roster by that date.

Colletti in the interview did a fairly decent job. He definitely knows how to be a PR guy that's for sure. The morons at Loose Cannons did not ask him about any potential free agent signings including CC for which they should not be allowed to conduct any more interviews. All they went on about was resigning Manny. Colletti seemed committed to signing Manny... as long as it was a 2-3 year deal. To be honest, I am convinced that Ned does not really want to sign him, at least long term. But he was very gracious of Manny as a clubhouse presence and of course his performance. And he made a very good point that Jon has been making... no matter what offer they had made to Manny, Boras would not accept right now and will come back with a bigger counter-offer. So there is no point in giving him your best offer on November 1.

Except me, I was a fetus during that season.

"Dayan Viciedo, a 19-year-old third baseman, will trigger a bidding war after defecting from Cuba." See Yahoo Sports MLB home page for the rest for the story (TinyURL-ing Yahoo links don't work for some reason.)

I think the Dodgers have made an obligatory offer expecting Manny to get a better offer from an AL team and move. If somehow he comes back to the Dodgers, it will be because there is no massive market for him.

I agree with you though that ideally, I do not want a poor offensive team. Even the first four months of this season were hard sometimes. Problem is I do not like anybody in the FA market right now for the money they would want. Dodgers best hope is to trade for someone like Uggla and/or Beltre but I suspect the price would be too high. Plus, I'd rather see Ned make FA blunders than trade blunders.

Sign CC and Raffy, trade for Uggla and we will play roulette with our outfield. Or hope that we can somehow get Manny for 3/75.

I'm with you. :-) I know it puts me in the minority on this site but if I had a choice between signing Manny for 4 years or CC for 6 years I'd take Manny. Manny gets me excited for every single game. CC only pitches every 5th game. The last two months of the 2008 season was the most fun I've had as a Dodgers fan since "the Boys of Summer".

167 Ah, your presentation is slowly coming back to me.....

>> Angels owner indicates that Ramirez could be pursued if the team can't sign Teixeira. <<

http://tinyurl.com/6pupo5

We then sat there and drank for a couple of hours anyway. Thanks Mitch for all the great work, and thanks for a story that I love to tell to this day.

Even with all those Hornet runs, the Lakers held New Orleans to 86 points, on the second night of back to back games. I am really impressed by the Lakers so far.

Even though the expectations were high coming in, the Lakers are managing to exceed them thus far.

(Also, sorry fanerman! Your knuckles deserve a break.)

In this instance, he has a decided schematic advantage.

No one expressed surprise over tailback Broderick Green's decision to transfer at the end of the semester.

"After the Washington State game he had (121 yards) and then he didn't get any reps the following week (against Arizona), I don't know if he was salty about that or not," running backs coach Todd McNair said.

---------------
"Withdrawing a $4 million contract offer for Hoffman's 2009 services is a defensible decision when you consider: A) it had been on the table long enough to attract termites; B) Hoffman had neither consented to the proposal nor countered it; C) letting it sit creates a "contingent liability" (Alderson's term) in a marketplace too fluid to let offers stand indefinitely; and D) rescinding the offer now does not preclude a deal getting done later."
---------------------

http://tinyurl.com/5f4uaj

---------------------------
Colletti said young internal pitching candidates McDonald, Scott Elbert and Eric Stults each could make the club with a good Spring Training.

McDonald has been a starter, but his fastball gained life when he was moved to the bullpen during a September callup that carried into the playoffs. With the future of 39-year-old closer Takashi Saito uncertain after a serious elbow injury, McDonald might emerge as a setup man/insurance policy for young closer Jonathan Broxton.

Elbert, healthy after shoulder surgery, could slide into free agent Joe Beimel's role as the second left-hander in the bullpen along with Hong-Chih Kuo.
---------------------------

http://tinyurl.com/6gfoca

http://tinyurl.com/5w3sd2

As for McDonald being in the bullpen, unless you're making him a long relief man, whats the point? He's your fifth starter, treat him like one.

I hope the Braves get him, just to end the Peavy talk.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

If we can't get Manny, a Dye trade for Pierre would make me happy. We can just stick Dye in left field, and focus on signing C.C. and/or Furcal.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Yeah, I don't either.

242 Considering the Padres sued Greene for 1/3 of his salary, I assume the Padres would want to move Green before spring training starts.

http://tinyurl.com/5gqtta

248
I think McDonald only threw 124.2 IP in 2008 (142 in 2006, 134.2 in 2007). I don't think 180 is an unreasonable total, since McDonald will be in his age 24 year. But I would imagine he'll be around the 160-170 mark.

Why can't we sign Manny for, say, four or five years and then, after two or three years, trade him to an AL team to finish out his contract? Why can't that be the de facto plan?

Manny's fielding isn't so awful now that we should think he couldn't handle the field in 2009-10, especially if Pierre sticks around for late-inning work. If, after a couple of years, it's obvious he shouldn't be in left field but is still a great hitter -- a reasonable forecast -- the AL will still be interested in him. Trade him then. There would be takers, if he can still hit. Chances are, Manny would prefer to move, too, if he can't play the field, so a no-trade provision won't be a serious obstacle. I could see this happening in mid-2011 and I could see some good prospects coming back.

If that's not a reasonable forecast, i.e. if the more likely forecast is his hitting will decline along with his fielding, then that supposition is probably shared by all 30 teams. And, therefore, he won't get a 6-year offer from anyone.

The Dodgers' offer is neither insulting nor a PR stunt. It is probably a near-accurate assessment of Manny's value, and not very far from what he'll sign for. Manny is not more valuable to an AL team, just because he has DH written all over him. He is merely less valuable than a younger player or more adept fielder would be. Just because Scott Boras thinks he "deserves" a six-year deal doesn't mean he'll get one.

But if the consensus is that Manny does deserve a six-year-deal, there is no reason an NL team wouldn't be as wise as an AL team to give it to him, because he can always be traded to the AL when the time comes.

I finally got around to looking at my old copy of Win Shares. Through 2001, the only real case Manny could have had was 1999:

1999 AL Win Shares
1) Manny 35
1) Alomar 35
1) Jeter 35
4) B.Williams 33
5) Nomar 32
6) Griffey 31
6) Palmeiro 31
8) Giambi 30
9) Pudge 28 (actual MVP)

Otherwise:

2005
1) A-Rod 37 (MVP)
2) Manny 34
3) Sheffield 33
4) Teixeira 32
5) Ortiz 31

2006
1) Jeter 33
2) Mauer 31
3) Manny 29
3) Ortiz 29
5) Morneau 27 (MVP)
5) Ibañez 27

2008 MLB
1) Berkman 38
2) Pujols 35
3) Manny 34 (combined)
4) Beltran 33
5) H.Ramirez 32
6) Mauer 31
7) Utley 30