Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Arbitration Update
2008-12-01 16:55
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The Dodgers have offered salary arbitration to Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe and Casey Blake, says Josh Rawitch at Inside the Dodgers. and will receive draft pick compensation if those three players sign with other teams this offseason.

Comments (458)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-01 16:58:47
1.   trainwreck
Well that answers D4P's question.
2008-12-01 16:59:02
2.   D4P
Ask and ye shall receive.
2008-12-01 17:00:14
3.   Bob Timmermann
I was triple-LAT'd on the question of salary cuts:

Bernie Williams went from $12,357,143 in 2005 to $1,500,000 in 2006.

That was a $10.8 million cut, which is not as big of a cut as Hampton's. But still pretty sizeable.

I bet Jason Giambi will take a bigger pay cut than Hampton. Giambi made over $23 million last year.

2008-12-01 17:00:29
4.   ToyCannon
Now we just need Manny and Lowe to sign with non protected teams if we don't sign them.
2008-12-01 17:01:34
5.   ToyCannon
3
Man that is laughable for a DH. The union will cry when Stienbrenner leaves us.
2008-12-01 17:02:03
6.   Tripon
3 Not counting Giambi's $4 million buy out?
2008-12-01 17:02:25
7.   underdog
I think the odds are if the Dodgers don't re-sign Manny, he will end up with a non-protected team, and I've been hearing Lowe to Boston (just rumors) so there's a decent chance both work out well for the Dodgers. And Blake keeps popping up to the Twins. And if LA ends up bringing back Manny, that's okay, too. In other words, good.
2008-12-01 17:02:56
8.   Tripon
5 Considering Hank Stienbrenner gave A-Rod $270 million to go play with Mondonna, I doubt it.
2008-12-01 17:06:34
9.   Tripon
Surprised that the Dodgers didn't offer arbitration to Biemel. He made close to $2 million this year. Even in arbitration, he wouldn't have made more than $3 million.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beimejo01.shtml

2008-12-01 17:07:29
10.   CanuckDodger
Okay, I was fearing this. No arbitration for Beimel. There was NO chance he would accept, so this was just a matter of fearing having to pay bonuses for too many top draft picks. Not offering Beimel arbitration basically means not having to pay $750,000 to a supplemental first round draftee. This is the sort of paltry cheapness I hate -- not the refusal to spend tens of millions on veterans of questionable value.
2008-12-01 17:07:29
11.   D4P
9
The Dodgers seem to really not want Beimel back, for whatever reason.
2008-12-01 17:07:50
12.   ibleedbloo
9 Ditto. Especially with the uncertainty around Saito.
2008-12-01 17:08:49
13.   D4P
10
Think of the children...
2008-12-01 17:09:50
14.   D4P
I bet Jason Giambi will take a bigger pay cut than Hampton

I bet* you're right.

*FEP,O

2008-12-01 17:10:01
15.   Tripon
13 But a 18 year old draft pick is a child...
2008-12-01 17:11:12
16.   Tripon
Rockies offered arbitration to Fuentes, and the Royals offered arbitration to Grudzielanek. The Jays offered arbitration to Burnett, but not to Zaun.
2008-12-01 17:11:13
17.   Eric Stephen
10
Well said. Offering Beimel arbitration is such an easy and obvious decision. I'm likely to be way too angry about this for a few days.
2008-12-01 17:14:06
18.   regfairfield
I don't know, the thought of paying three million for a LOOGY, even a good one, is kind of scary.
2008-12-01 17:14:10
19.   D4P
We didn't offer arbitration that one time to Dessens, either. That bugged me. No risk, greater-than-zero reward. No brainer.
2008-12-01 17:15:33
20.   Tripon
18 How about 3 million for a decent set up man, which Biemel was before he was miscast?
2008-12-01 17:19:00
21.   Tripon
BTW, old friend Brian Falkenborg(who got a lot more chances than Eric Stults did to screw up.) signed with a Japanese team, the Softbank Hawks.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sb20081124j1.html

2008-12-01 17:19:15
22.   regfairfield
20 Maybe. His splits were extreme in 2007 but he was normal this year.
2008-12-01 17:20:01
23.   Tripon
Also:

Softbank has also agreed to a contract extension with right-hander D.J. Houlton, who went 4-7 with six saves and a 4.27 ERA in 28 games in his first season in Japan in 2008.

In the same article above. Can we call them the Softbank Hawks Dodgers now?

2008-12-01 17:21:23
24.   Bob Timmermann
Some people were making posts about Japanese signings back on November 28.
http://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1180977.html
2008-12-01 17:22:51
25.   ToyCannon
While the idea of paying 3 million to Beimel is unacceptable, I agree with Canuck it was probably a slam dunk he would decline arbitration.
2008-12-01 17:24:05
26.   Eric Stephen
oshea, thanks for the info about USC donning the Cardinal jerseys this weekend. I've been looking forward to reds v. blues for some time! This Saturday will be pretty sweet.
2008-12-01 17:24:47
27.   ToyCannon
I like how Josh completely ignores the Beimel question but mentions Furcal.
2008-12-01 17:24:48
28.   Tripon
24 But you missed D.J. Houlton! Wonder why the Dodgers fooled around with him after they picked him up in the rule 5 draft if they'd just release him to go play in Japan.
2008-12-01 17:26:17
29.   regfairfield
The GM that took him got fired.
2008-12-01 17:26:22
30.   Bob Timmermann
28
One of the links included the mention of Houlton. I was writing about NEW people going over to Japan. Not players re-signing.

There was a theme. There was plot development. There was a denouement. There was a moral lesson.

2008-12-01 17:26:27
31.   trainwreck
26
Saturday will be horrific.
2008-12-01 17:27:49
32.   Eric Stephen
28
Houlton was a decent risk at the time. It's not like they picked him with the intention of eventually shipping him overseas. It just didn't work out for them, but the risk was minimal ($50,000 to the Astros, plus MLB minimum salaries for when he was on the big club).
2008-12-01 17:27:58
33.   Bob Timmermann
26
UCLA should just wear white out of spite.
2008-12-01 17:28:17
34.   ToyCannon
26
As if winning was not enough, now you have to be dressed up like a peacock. 1989 will not seem so long ago after the peacock turns out to be a girl.
2008-12-01 17:30:03
35.   Eric Stephen
31
I have morphed into fanerman this week, in that I'm horrified at all the articles mentioning a certain Bowl USC seems destined for. I'm too gun shy since 2006.

I'm looking forward to watching the game, perhaps even at a UCLA bar.

2008-12-01 17:30:47
36.   trainwreck
35
We took Pat Cowan for granted.
2008-12-01 17:32:30
37.   Eric Stephen
34
A peacock? I feel like Dan Fouts sitting next to Dennis Miller. It's very likely I'm missing something very obvious though.
2008-12-01 17:34:54
38.   Bob Timmermann
I do find the idea that USC will somehow eternally be a top 5 team in football to be risible.

There are cycles. It happens to every time in every sport. Enjoy it while you're on the high end of the boom.

2008-12-01 17:35:36
39.   Eric Stephen
Speaking of uniforms, the Texans tonight are wearing the unfortunate colored tops with same-colored pants combo.
2008-12-01 17:36:56
40.   Tripon
Meanwhile, the Angels take the opposite approach and say damn the consequences.

According to the AP, the Angels offered arbitration to Mark Teixeira, Francisco Rodriguez, Jon Garland, and Darren Oliver today. The last two were uncertain, but the decisions make sense. Oliver now seems less likely to sign elsewhere, as a new team would have to pay the draft pick tax.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-01 17:37:01
41.   Eric Stephen
38
There are cycles. It happens to every time in every sport. Enjoy it while you're on the high end of the boom

Which is why I will never be disappointed by "only" a trip to the Rose Bowl.

2008-12-01 17:38:17
42.   Bob Timmermann
41
In the words of Marshal Sam McCloud,

"There you go."

2008-12-01 17:38:26
43.   ToyCannon
Baseball business decisions that make sense. What a concept.
2008-12-01 17:40:05
44.   Tripon
43 It helps that the Angels seemed to have more cash in their hands than the McCourts do.
2008-12-01 17:40:19
45.   LoneStar7
33 I believe it was Neu though who finally got the ball rolling on the whole traditional home jersey match up.

this weekend I realistically would be proud if we can avoid letting SUC cover the spread of 31.5 points

2008-12-01 17:40:55
46.   Jacob Burch
43 I was about to mention I wonder what it would like rooting for such a team. I bet it's nice.

Beimel decision baffles me. Sigh.

2008-12-01 17:42:32
47.   68elcamino427
38
In memory of coach Tollner - the seniors were booed at the end of their last game by the home crowd.

I am savoring every moment of the glory as long as it lasts!

2008-12-01 17:43:13
48.   ToyCannon
It seems like only yesterday I was sporting my UCLA winning streak T-Shirt against USC and watching Carson Palmer go down in his freshman year. This cycle seems longer then the others. Then again if Mcnown had never parked in a disabled spot maybe none of this ever happens and he's leading the Bears instead of doing god knows what.
2008-12-01 17:44:53
49.   Eric Stephen
Also, why can't the Dodgers work out deals with their arbies similar to what the Padres have done a few times? Offer the player arb with the contingency that the player decline. This involves no burden for Type B players, as the signing time wouldn't have to give up any picks and thus possibly soften the market for the player.
2008-12-01 17:50:00
50.   Tripon
Padres decline to offer arbitration to Hoffman.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-01 17:52:51
51.   scareduck
10 - the only other read I can think of is that it's a parting gift to Beimel himself, inasmuch as a signing team wouldn't have to give up a draft pick, thus making him a smidge more signable.
2008-12-01 17:53:34
52.   trainwreck
I would not be surprised if the Giants signed Hoffman. Bochy would want him and they do love their vets.
2008-12-01 17:53:44
53.   Tripon
51 Beimel's a type B, no team would give up a draft pick to sign him.
2008-12-01 17:57:10
54.   ToyCannon
53
That is what I thought but then someone posted here a list of relief pitchers who have signed that cost draft picks.
2008-12-01 17:59:40
55.   bhsportsguy
Do you think its an absolute lock Beimel would not take arbitration for one year.

Especially given the situation that this team is jammed pack with relievers and Beimel was not especially a favorite of Torre's in the second half of the season.

I don't think you can believe an agent that says he has lots of offers.

49 I think that was a one time instance, otherwise you think the Padres would have handled the Hoffman situation better. Also, they did not offer Bradly arbitration last year either.

2008-12-01 18:00:49
56.   bhsportsguy
35 I would be happy to buy you a UCLA T-shirt for the occasion.
2008-12-01 18:01:56
57.   CanuckDodger
51 -- Beimel is Type B, not Type A. Any team signing Beimel would not have lost a draft pick. A team losing a Type B whom they offered arbitration does not get another team's draft pick, just a supplemental first rounder that is essentially a pick created out of thin air.
2008-12-01 18:03:00
58.   Tripon
55 But considering the deals pitchers like Affeldt(2 years, $8 million), and Damaso Marte signed(3 years, $12 million). We know there's an established market for relief pitchers who will pitch middle relief/set-up. Even if Biemel accepted arbitration, its not as if the Dodgers couldn't have traded Biemel for an usable body down the road. They're just short sighted to do that.
2008-12-01 18:08:17
59.   CanuckDodger
55 -- I don't think it was just Beimel's agent that was talking about how much interest there is in his client. Beimel's a lefty who has had three decent years in a row as an MLB reliever. I think it is absolutely reasonable to believe multiple teams want him, and are willing to give him a multi-year deal. So I do not think there was any chance Beimel would accept arbitration, especially after the Dodgers more or less insulted him by showing no interest in re-signing him.
2008-12-01 18:08:43
60.   silverwidow
Diamond has some Ned quotes up. Said even if Furcal was a Type-B, no arb offer was likely. Sounds like he's gone. Ned likes Hu's defense but questions his bat. They're still looking for shorstops, basically.
2008-12-01 18:09:13
61.   Samhain
Off topic; but I was sorry to read that SI's long-time pro football writer Paul Zimmerman suffered two strokes weekend before last.

Zimmerman's expertise and wonderful writing style was apparent when he first worked for the L.A. Times sports section in the 1960s before SI hired him away.
Best wishes for his recovery.

Nice Peter King SI column on him at:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/11/30/week13/index.html

2008-12-01 18:09:24
62.   Eric Stephen
56
I'll wear it under my Brian Cushing (or John David Booty, you decide!) jersey. :)
2008-12-01 18:09:31
63.   underdog
While I think BH is right that it was not so cut and dry that Beimel would not have accepted arbitration, and the Dodgers clearly are not prepared to have to pay him that to keep him next season, I still think it a fairly dumb move to not have done so. It seems pretty clear he's moving on and would have been worth the very minor risk in exchange for a chance at another high draft pick. Ah well, I like the other arbitration offers, at least.

Well, hrmph, this is a rather stinky Monday Night Football matchup. Guess I have no choice but to get some work done tonight.

2008-12-01 18:10:26
64.   bhsportsguy
They have Brazoban, Proctor, Wade, Troncoso, Elbert, Saito, Broxton, McDonald and probably Kuo (I know I am the lone wolf in terms of relegating Kuo to the pen but I just have not seen any durability that shows me he can start for a full year). Now, Elbert, McDonald, Troncoso and Wade could go back down to the minors but probably at least 3 stay if not all 4.

Also, Broxton is due for a raise this year and Saito won't make less than he made last year. And even with that, Beimel would have been the highest paid reliever whose role what diminishing last year.

Put aside that his ground ball rate was going down, his hits per inning was going up, sure he could still get out lefties but I would rather have Elbert and Kuo blow guys down than hope Beimel could get a ground ball.

Now, would it have been the worst thing to do than to offer arbitration to him, no.

But again, I think people are too quick to criticize without looking at the whole picture.

2008-12-01 18:14:02
65.   Sam DC
Sure, there's some minor risk offering arb to Beimel, but you can't run your team on no risk. Every FA signing brings meaningful risk that you will end up with some dead money on your roster. This risk just seems so small.
2008-12-01 18:20:53
66.   Tripon
According to WEEI's Alex Speier, the Red Sox offered arbitration to Jason Varitek (Type A) and Paul Byrd (Type B). They were both borderline cases, and it seems that either player could go either way on deciding whether to accept. What do you think - can Varitek and Byrd find multiyear deals elsewhere?

I'm surprised, Veritek seems like a good chance to accept it, and even get a raise. Boras is going to have fun in the arbitration hearing. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-01 18:21:06
67.   underdog
It seems pretty clear the Dodgers aren't the only one unwilling to take much of a risk with arb offers.

I was surprised the Cardinals didn't offer Looper arbitration, for one thing. Seemed pretty low risk and reasonably priced too in case he accepted.

2008-12-01 18:24:24
68.   bhsportsguy
I think it came down to this, the organization decided early on they had no desire to bring Beimel back, they never talked, so I would presume in their mind, the risk, however small, was not worth it.

Again, I'd offer arbitration to Beimel and maybe even Penny but I can understand why they didn't do it.

2008-12-01 18:25:06
69.   bhsportsguy
61 I believe Paul Zimmerman, Bob Oates, and a few others have covered every Super Bowl.
2008-12-01 18:29:51
70.   Bob Timmermann
The Paul Zimmerman who worked for the LA Times and the Paul Zimmerman of SI are two different people.
2008-12-01 18:31:44
71.   Bob Timmermann
As of 2005, the people who had covered every Super Bowl were Bob Oates, Jerry Izenberg, Edwin Pope, Dave Klein, and Jerry Green.
2008-12-01 18:39:04
72.   Tripon
According to MLB.com's Marty Noble, the Mets offered arbitration to Type A free agent Oliver Perez. None of their other free agents received an offer, including Type Bs Luis Ayala and Moises Alou. No big surprises here.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-01 18:39:33
73.   trainwreck
Looks like DeWayne Walker could be headed to coach San Diego State.
2008-12-01 18:41:00
74.   Ken Noe
Only one explanation for not offering Beimel: Troy from WV threatened Ned.
2008-12-01 18:41:01
75.   bhsportsguy
73 Who UCLA plays first, then they Lane Kiffin's team and then Bill Snyder returns with Kansas State to the Rose Bowl.
2008-12-01 18:41:29
76.   bhsportsguy
71 I stand corrected.
2008-12-01 18:53:34
77.   JoeyP
But again, I think people are too quick to criticize without looking at the whole picture.

The whole picture looks like the McCourts are flat broke.

Pinching pennies to save 1mil dollars is quite a difference from the days of giving Loaiza 7.5mils.

2008-12-01 18:55:29
78.   JoeyP
According to WEEI's Alex Speier, the Red Sox offered arbitration to Jason Varitek (Type A) and Paul Byrd (Type B).

This tells me the Red Sox have loads of cash bc neither player is worth what they'll get in arbitration.

2008-12-01 18:56:46
79.   Gen3Blue
10 That can't be true. No one could be so stupid. I better read the rest of the comments before I tear my hair out!
2008-12-01 18:57:32
80.   dodgerkramer1
Does anyone know why the Dodgers didn't offer arbitration to Furcal?

Seems like a no-brainer, because you either get him for one year (which is low risk) or you get prospects from the Giants.

2008-12-01 19:01:14
81.   Sam DC
80 At the link, Josh R says he would not be an A or B and so no compensation even if he declined arb.
2008-12-01 19:01:54
82.   JoeyP
80- Furcal was neither Type A or type B. So no draft pick compensation would have been given. He was hurt too much this year to qualify.

If Casey Blake accepts, I suppose Dewitt will play 2nd.

2008-12-01 19:03:56
83.   bhsportsguy
80 Furcal is a no compensation free agent, they don't get any draft picks if they offered him arbitration and he refuses.

77 I guess the Yankees have no cash either. And every other team that does not offer their free agents arbitration.

2008-12-01 19:05:24
84.   bhsportsguy
Oh, and the Diamond Backs have yet to announce their arbitration list, there are rumors that they are reconsidering offering arbitration to Adam Dunn.
2008-12-01 19:07:48
85.   Tripon
84 I hope they do. That has a big chance of blowing up in their faces.
2008-12-01 19:11:33
86.   regfairfield
I'd take Adam Dunn on a one year deal.
2008-12-01 19:12:49
87.   Tripon
But the D'backs are even more broke than we are. Adam Dunn accepting arbitration totally screws over their budget.
2008-12-01 19:20:57
88.   Gen3Blue
87 But they could trade Dunn for something good before the break next year. But I am beginning to sense reluctance to spend next year, coupled with a desire for draft picks. Who can deny where the Rays and even Marlins are headed.
Either the Dodgers may get a few good one year contracts, or they will get a number of good draft picks. Unless they are very clumsy. Ned couldn't be ----could he.
2008-12-01 19:22:05
89.   Icaros
I'd take Adam Dunn on a three-year deal. Happily. Even better if he doesn't cost a pick.
2008-12-01 19:23:28
90.   underdog
The A's didn't offer arb to Alan Embree, either. Which isn't a shocker but a mild surprise to me. I guess there was a chance he'd accept and they were done with him. Seems to be a trend here.
2008-12-01 19:34:50
91.   Kuo-fax
Looks like the Dbacks didn't offer Dunn arb. Wouldn't mind picking him up, seems like such a good fit for us (minus the defense, of course).
2008-12-01 19:34:59
92.   Bluebleeder87
89

I guess I'd take Adam Dunn over Pierre...

man - I sure wish we'd get an update on how A. Jones "looks" this off-season...

2008-12-01 19:37:14
93.   Bluebleeder87
hey - you think Dunn is SO bad at D that the Dodgers would consider moving Loney to left & have Dunn play 1st?? man, that would be embarrassing.
2008-12-01 19:52:31
94.   Samhain
71 Right you are, Bob (about SI's Paul Zimmerman being a different sportwriter than the LA Times' Zimmerman). I appreciate the correction.

Even though another treasured memory of my youth turns out to be in error. ;)

I like the SI writer's articles very much.. I hope he makes a complete recovery.

2008-12-01 19:52:59
95.   bhsportsguy
91 From their official website.

Second baseman Orlando Hudson and relievers Juan Cruz and Brandon Lyon were offered arbitration, while outfielder Adam Dunn and left-hander Randy Johnson were not.

When they traded for Dunn in July, one of their rationales in giving up young talent for the free-agent-to-be was the Draft compensation they would receive should he depart. However, after assessing the market so far this offseason, the D-backs decided they could not take the risk that Dunn would accept arbitration and better his $13 million he made last year.

"That was a premise of the deal," Arizona GM Josh Byrnes said in regards to getting a pair of draft picks. "The chances at that time were very good, but quite a few things have changed. I think it's fair to say it's maybe a little different situation than we anticipated. The poor economy has affected some things."

http://tinyurl.com/6jt665

2008-12-01 19:53:52
96.   Bluebleeder87
of course I'm just assuming if we get Dunn but another intriguing thing is you guys think McDonald will get a legit chance in '09 what do the more informed DT'ers think?
2008-12-01 20:02:34
97.   Bluebleeder87
that's crazy man, I didn't realize Anderson (Halos) is up for Arb as well, he's been with the Halos since I can remember.
2008-12-01 20:03:42
98.   CajunDodger
92
Thinking this way is really counter-productive, but what if Jones reverts to his 2007 form (no hope for the 2006 Jones) and Schmidt turns into a decent pitcher? Going on potential, wouldn't the Dodgers, with their young core, a free agent or two, and the most expensive bench on any team save for the New York Knicks, have a very high ceiling?

Completely stupid to think like this, but I'd like to think that Jones is wanting to reestablish his value more than just about any player in baseball. The last two years may have cost him $70 million or more, so getting back to becoming a decent player has to be in his offseason workout plans, right?

2008-12-01 20:04:08
99.   Daniel Zappala
95 I like how pretty much everything gets blamed on the economy these days. I think I'm going to use this.

"I'm sorry your grade is so low this semester. When you enrolled in the class, you looked really good, but things have changed since then, and the poor economy has affected some things."

2008-12-01 20:08:41
100.   Daniel Zappala
98 I was eternally optimistic about Jones as the season started, but then as it wore on his performance wore me down. I don't think it was a coincidence that the economy went in the tank too.

Now that we're in the off-season, my hope has renewed somewhat, especially because he's mashing for me on MLB2K8.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-01 20:15:12
101.   Tripon
98 That is if Jones could ever reach the level he played at with the Braves. Sure, part of it was conditioning, but part of it is that Jones' skill set was going to diminish anyway when his athleticism vanishes. Jones skill set was mediocre, but his talent and ability more than compensated for it. Now that ability is eroding, he can't rely only on his meager skills.

I'm going to be not bold at all and predict that Jones is out of the MLB when the Dodgers contract is finished. His career slash stats are a .259/.339/.489. Even if you're discounting his horrendous '08 year, he still had a pretty bad '07 year. I doubt Andruw Jones is ever a productive player again. A team has to be foolish to give him a chance from 2010 on.

2008-12-01 20:19:04
102.   trainwreck
CC Sabathia is at Warriors game.

This means he will sign with Giants.

2008-12-01 20:21:05
103.   Tripon
It'll be kinda funny that its the Giants that hand out Baseball's first $100,000,000 pitching duo. Tim Linceicum must be licking his lips. Matt Cain will be wondering why the hell he signed his extremely below market contract.
2008-12-01 20:23:26
104.   Eric Stephen
102
But Jessica Alba and Snoop Dogg didn't sign with the Giants.
2008-12-01 20:24:12
105.   LogikReader
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that no major MLB transactions transpired so far this offseason. I remember how last year at this time a year ago, Torii Hunter was signed, and two years ago (shudder) Juan Pierre was signed.

Do most teams offer incumbent players arbitration as they hit Free Agency? In other words, if they offer Manny arbitration, for instance, and he declines, does that usually mean the Dodgers won't sign him to a longer contract?

---

One of the perks of being an L.A. Kings fan is if they start playing well and make the playoffs, I can start explaining all the rules and describe the players to bandwagon fans who jump aboard in April. :) :) :)

2008-12-01 20:30:34
106.   Bob Timmermann
But the Kings are wearing their third sweaters tonight. And those are ugly.
2008-12-01 20:35:22
107.   Eric Stephen
105
A-Rod and Rivera declined arbitration last year and signed with the Yankees later.

Re-signing with the old team after declining arbitration is a relatively new phenomenon since in the past part of the arbitration offer consideration was if a player wasn't offered arb, he couldn't re-sign with the old club until May 1.

2008-12-01 20:36:18
108.   trainwreck
I like that the Kings have old school color alternative jerseys. They should just stick with those.
2008-12-01 20:36:57
109.   Gagne55
103 Actually, Brown was the first $100 million pitcher, not Zito.
2008-12-01 20:38:01
110.   Tripon
109 Two $100 million pitchers on the same team.
2008-12-01 20:38:33
111.   Eric Stephen
109
The key word was duo.
2008-12-01 20:39:56
112.   Eric Stephen
By the way, 111 is a lot more fun when you read it in the Bert Convy voice.
2008-12-01 20:43:43
113.   underdog
Sorry, Sabathia being at a Warriors game -- which is his hometown hoops team and his favorite -- is just a sign he's a masochist, not a future Giant. Color me unworried. He'd have to give them such a ludicrous discount that the players union would sue the Giants.
2008-12-01 20:45:47
114.   underdog
Wow, no draft picks for losing Dunn. That sure wasn't how I or they envisioned that working out when the trade first happened. A big zilch in return.
2008-12-01 20:46:03
115.   trainwreck
113
I was joking.
2008-12-01 20:46:42
116.   Tripon
Garland, who made $12 million in 2008, is part of the "middle class" of free agents who could find it difficult to procure multiyear deals this winter.

Because salaries can be cut by a maximum of only 20% in arbitration, Garland would assure himself of a $9.6-million salary if he accepted the offer.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/dodgers/la-sp-baseball2-2008dec02,0,4772780.story

Mike DiGiovanna needs to consult BTF once in a while. I know arbitration tend to raise to keep salary at the current level, but it can and should be used to decrease a players salary when his production has fallen.

2008-12-01 20:47:17
117.   trainwreck
Speed pool is on ESPN2 right now.
2008-12-01 20:48:45
118.   Tripon
Rangers offered arbitration to Milton Bradley.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-01 21:00:16
119.   Who Is Karim Garcia
In Soviet Russia, arbitration offers YOU.
2008-12-01 21:14:10
120.   Bob Timmermann
119
Sounds like someone spent their Thanksgiving weekend in Branson.
2008-12-01 21:17:01
121.   MC Safety
The Rays should sign Milton.
2008-12-01 21:19:43
122.   LogikReader
106

I don't think they're that bad. I think they'd be even better if they used the normal crown logo on the front.

Even so, I'm sure we are all hoping for a return to the ol' Forum Blue and Gold Jerseys from the 70's and 80's...

2008-12-01 21:19:47
123.   Tripon
121 Milton Bradley wants a 4 year/40 million contract. Not to say he won't get it, but I assume he's just going to accept the Rangers offer and try FA next year.
2008-12-01 21:23:44
124.   LogikReader
Speaking of forum blue, my Dad and I attended a Staples Center double header last Saturday. There was a Kings game in the afternoon and a Clippers game at night. Anyone ever try to go to both games like this back to back?

In between games, we had a chance to check out the Auto Show at the L.A. Convention center. That was shrewd scheduling by the Auto Show...

The only way the day could be topped is if the line wasn't so long at the Pantry!

2008-12-01 21:29:47
125.   Eric Stephen
119
Every once in a while, a good Yakov Smirnov reference cracks me up.

And by "every once in a while," I mean "every single time."

2008-12-01 21:32:55
126.   underdog
115 Just wanted to make sure. There's enough to be angsty about these days. ;-)

Btw, why the heck is The Pelican Brief on Turner Classic movies? I guess since they occasionally air non-classic old movies they should be allowed to air non-classic more recent movies but it seems jarring for some reason.

2008-12-01 21:33:53
127.   Eric Stephen
126
Reign of Fire was on AMC this past weekend.
2008-12-01 21:36:12
128.   trainwreck
AMC shows the movie Pinata: Survival Island quite a bit.
2008-12-01 21:51:43
129.   LogikReader
Reign of Fire : AMC :: Poker : ESPN Classic
2008-12-01 21:54:00
130.   underdog
AMC long ago lost the right to have "classics" in their name, about the time they kept showing Death Wish IV and a bunch of other crapola. I expect more outta Turner! (Though I'll admit to a secret enjoyment of Reign of Fire, ludicrous though it is.)
2008-12-01 22:09:39
131.   trainwreck
Matthew McConaughey is hilarious in that movie. Especially when he gets all crazy and jumps at the dragon. Could not stop laughing.
2008-12-01 22:16:19
132.   LogikReader
Kings lose... 3-1, after a big collapse in the 3rd. Dang! Fortunately I don't obsess over hockey games like I do here with the Dodgers.

I'm awfully surprised TCM is pulling an AMC. What's next? MTV converting to a reality TV channel?

2008-12-01 22:53:45
133.   Tripon
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

mlbtraderumors has the full list of players who were offered arbitration.

2008-12-01 22:59:14
134.   Tripon
Also, Pat Burnell wasn't offered arbitration by the Phillies.
2008-12-01 23:36:08
135.   Xeifrank
How much money do you think Colletti has to spend on 2008 payroll, considering all the money freed up with Penny, Lowe, Kent, Furcal et al, gone?
vr, Xei
2008-12-01 23:46:00
136.   ToyCannon
124
I've done the Clipper afternoon, Laker 06:00 game on a Sunday before and used the subway to bounce around town in between games.

Amazing the Diamondbacks didn't offer Dunn arbitration. Now that trade really hurts. Sounds like they could not only not afford Dunn but the draft picks they would have gotten if he had said no to arbitration.

2008-12-01 23:46:55
137.   bhsportsguy
I think only the following players have a chance to accept arbitration:

Type A (4 players)
Juan Cruz
Darren Oliver
Ben Sheets
Jason Varitek (very small)

Type B (6 players)
Paul Byrd
Jon Garland
Brandon Lyon
Dennys Reyes
Brian Shouse
David Weathers

No real reason just a guess and of those I picked, you should take Sheets and Varitek off the list.

2008-12-01 23:55:26
138.   bhsportsguy
136 I have a feeling that there is a sense by a lot of GMS that only A.J. Burnett, Derek Lowe, Manny Ramirez , Francisco Rodriguez, C.C. Sabathia, and Mark Teixeira will get a contract that they are looking for.

Some of the other players like Cabrera, Hudson, Fuentes, Ibanez, Sheets and Varitek will probably have a decision to make when Sunday rolls around to see if they should take the guaranteed money and wait one more year to hit the market.

2008-12-02 00:00:31
139.   trainwreck
I know Sheet's injury past will scare off Ned, but if the market is soft for him, he is the one we should be focusing on.
2008-12-02 00:06:20
140.   Tripon
I would think Varitek takes arbitration. He has a chance to make more than $12 million from the system. Might as well use it. Nobody is foolish enough to give him that much money otherwise.
2008-12-02 00:35:25
141.   KingKopitar
105 The Kings won't make the playoffs.
2008-12-02 00:35:30
142.   trainwreck
Underdog, we meet again. This time, it is playoffs!
2008-12-02 01:02:29
143.   Andrew Shimmin
It would have been nice to get a sandwich pick out of Beimel.
2008-12-02 01:39:26
144.   Tripon
Looks like the WNBA is going out of business. Or at least its most successful member is.

HOUSTON, Texas (AFP) – The Houston Comets, four-time winners of the Women's National Basketball Association crown, will suspend operations after the league was unable find a buyer for the team.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081202/ts_alt_afp/basketusawomencomets

2008-12-02 01:55:03
145.   trainwreck
144
That is sad. The WNBA has been putting out a better product the last couple of years and I hope they survive the down time.
2008-12-02 02:12:37
146.   dzzrtRatt
126 I wondered that too. Turns out it was Alan Pakula night. The next movie was "Sophie's Choice." Before "Pelican Brief" was "The Sterile Cuckoo" and "The Parallax View."

Of the four, "Pelican Brief" might actually be the most watchable. But the others have artsier reputations.

2008-12-02 04:34:41
147.   D4P
It would have been nice to get a sandwich pick out of Beimel

Or even just a sandwich.

2008-12-02 06:44:02
148.   Terry A
If you give a LOOGY a sandwich...

he's going to want something to wash it down, so...

he'll ask for a glass of whiskey, and then...

(Sorry. Too many kids books in my library.)

2008-12-02 07:04:01
149.   GoBears
Hi all. Missed you guys - I was away for a couple weeks, and mostly a lurker since the end of the regular season.

Anyone interested in Burrell? He's no Manny Ramirez (even defensively!) but I sure like his bat. Kemp and Ethier could reprise their CF-RF alignment. With Ramirez gone, it's clear that the #1 priority should be a big bat, although Burrell's wouldn't be as bit in DS as in the Philly bandbox, I imagine. Burrell or Dunn.

Colletti would never go for it. But I would.

Next priority for me would be Orlando Hudson.

2008-12-02 07:16:25
150.   D4P
although Burrell's wouldn't be as bit in DS as in the Philly bandbox

Burrell's 2008 splits:

Home: .230/.348/.439/.787, 12 HRs
Away: .270/.387/.577/.964, 21 HRs

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-02 07:58:06
151.   Ken Noe
130 131 Gee, I thought I was the only person on earth who liked "Reign of Fire."
2008-12-02 08:00:05
152.   D4P
According to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, Adam Dunn turned down a two-year contract offer from the Diamondbacks shortly before the team declined to offer him arbitration Monday.
2008-12-02 08:02:04
153.   CajunDodger
150
How great would Burrel look in LF? Then go for a slightly deal that would allow us to go after Hudson, Sheets/Burnett, and a tier 2 pitcher. I like the idea of getting some quantity and depth rather than going after Manny/CC and then having Colletti go after Mark Loretta for our SS/2B problem.
2008-12-02 08:12:42
154.   JoeyP
I guess the Yankees have no cash either. And every other team that does not offer their free agents arbitration.

There's a difference between not offering arbitration to a player that might otherwise get 13-15 mils, as opposed to 3mils. Its understandable that the Yankees wouldnt want to pay Abreu 18 mils. Its not understandable that the Dodgers wouldnt want to pay Beimel 3 mils.

Adam Dunn turned down a two-year contract offer from the Diamondbacks shortly before the team declined to offer him arbitration Monday.

Why would you not offer Dunn arbitration? At worst, you get him on a 1yr deal. Maybe the Dbax have financial problems too. This is a worse decision than the Beimel move I think.

2008-12-02 08:15:23
155.   cargill06
135 My guess for the opening day pay roll, $87-$92 million.
2008-12-02 08:17:55
156.   ToyCannon
154
It is no secret that the Diamondbacks are having financial issues. After the big free agents this could be a very shocking time for the rest of the group.
2008-12-02 08:19:04
157.   D4P
156
They're gonna struggle just to feed their families.
2008-12-02 08:21:08
158.   CajunDodger
155
I think you will see at least a $105-$110 million payroll. Those numbers allow them to say that they spent money while not maxing themselves out so that they can acquire pieces at the deadline in July.

They get to cut payroll by $10 million or so and save face in the wake of Jamie's ridiculous rant about charity vs. payroll.

2008-12-02 08:22:34
159.   JoeyP
If thats the case, I think its a much needed market correction that will be taking place.

The superstars deserve their money IMO. Hopefully the days of the average PVL making 8-10 mils a year (think Garland, Silva, Pierre, etc..) are over.

If Casey Blake accepts arbitration, he likely makes 10 mils? The Dodgers are really rolling the dice at offering him, but maybe they wouldnt mind him back for 1yr no matter the cost.

I cant see any club offering Blake more per year than what he'd make through arbitration in 2009.

2008-12-02 08:22:35
160.   underdog
142 Oh noes! Well, after my dismal weekend I'm just happy to have made the playoffs. Buena suerte.

146 Ahhh, now that makes sense. There's a bit of a gap between Parallax and Pelican in quality but on the other hand they have his stamp on both.

--

And I'm liking the idea of Burrell if they don't re-sign Manny, now that he wasn't offered arbitration. In fact, sign Burrell, lose Manny and get two draft picks isn't the worst of all worlds.

2008-12-02 08:23:17
161.   D4P
USC coach Pete Carroll says the NCAA can have two of his timeouts from Saturday's crosstown rivalry game with UCLA. He just wants his players to wear their home colors.

Carroll said on Monday that the Trojans would wear their cardinal red home jerseys on Saturday at the Rose Bowl. That violates an NCAA rule that requires visiting teams to wear white, and the infraction will cost him two timeouts, one per half.

2008-12-02 08:24:19
162.   underdog
So the DBacks literally knew Dunn was not coming back after he rejected a contract offer and yet still didn't offer him arbitration? I'm confused. Did they think he was going to then go "Psych!" and accept? Now they get nothing. I get that they are having $ troubles, but that makes the Beimel thing seem sensible by comparison.
2008-12-02 08:25:07
163.   JoeyP
Burrell would be fine but I dont think there's much chance he signs. He doesnt seem like the type of player Ned values.
2008-12-02 08:27:52
164.   JoeyP
Dunn's hit 40HRs for 3yrs in a row.
I guess the D-bax were thinking he'd be a tough case to win in arbitration.

If he asks for 20 mils a year & the Dbax offer 12 mils, Dunn might win. The Dbax budget must be really small this off-season.

2008-12-02 08:27:55
165.   cargill06
162 I'm assuming they didn't want to pay those draft picks.
2008-12-02 08:29:59
166.   CajunDodger
162
That's the first "Psych" reference I have ever seen on this site...
2008-12-02 08:39:52
167.   LogikReader
161

It's not like they even need timeouts... It's UCLA!

2008-12-02 08:41:11
168.   ToyCannon
Even if we don't sign Manny we still have 4 starting outfielders on this team in Ned's eye. The idea that we will go after Dunn or Burrel or Abreu seems far fetched. Frank is not going to let Ned throw more money on another outfielder after his other two did not work out. It is either Manny in LF or Jones in CF unless Jones still looks cooked in the DWL and they just release him. The odds of that have to be very tiny. The fans are demanding Manny, they couldn't care less about options B in Abreu, Burrel, or Dunn.

159
I hope you are right that the days of below average veterans pulling in plus 10 Million is over. Blake for one year would be fine. He isn't as bad as he hit for us and being on the hook for only one year makes it palatable. It will be curious if he goes for the multi year offer of the Twins at less money or accepts arbitration. Assuming of course that the Twins will even offer a multi-year deal. They are quite spendthrift themselves and the Lamb deal is still quite fresh in their minds.

2008-12-02 08:43:54
169.   D4P
It is either Manny in LF or Jones in CF unless Jones still looks cooked in the DWL and they just release him

According to MLB rules and such, what options do the Dodgers have, apart from keeping him on the big league squad and releasing him?

Are they allowed to send Jones to the minors? If so, can they only send him down for injury rehab, or could they send him down just for fun?

2008-12-02 08:45:35
170.   ToyCannon
Logan White must like big left handed hitters who strike out a lot and don't have much of a batting average. Our lower minors are littered with them. To bad none of them other then Kyle Russel show any inclination to hit home runs indicative of their size.
2008-12-02 08:48:03
171.   cargill06
170 Just out of curiousity what big lefties in our system don't hit for power?
2008-12-02 08:53:50
172.   ToyCannon
The Diamondbacks are going to waste a great window of opportunity. Their GM has been quite unimpressive to me and I don't care how good the prospect they got for Quentin was, the bottom line is that they gave up a near MVP player for him and he was only good enough to be one of 5 players they needed to acquire Haren.

So it looks like Renteria is now free of draft picks but Caberera is not. So the GM who doesn't want to pay for a draft pick should be able to sign Orlando and save money in both draft picks and yearly salary compared to Renteria. Looks like Ned's guy to me.

135
103 Million

2008-12-02 08:54:38
173.   kinbote
I would bet money today that we will end up signing Mark Loretta. He's veteran, local, versatile on defense, and cheap. And he doesn't cost a draft pick.
2008-12-02 08:55:08
174.   D4P
If MLB rules allow, I would be in favor of sending Jones down to single-A for the entire season.
2008-12-02 08:55:38
175.   D4P
173
Either Loretta or Aurelia seems like a virtual lock.
2008-12-02 08:57:22
176.   regfairfield
172 I wouldn't go that far, the Byrnes over Quentin thing was incredibly boneheaded in retrospect but it seemed kind of sane at the time. Plus there's a good chance Brett Anderson is the only guy of any value he gave up for Haren.
2008-12-02 08:57:54
177.   ToyCannon
171
Clay Calfee 6'6 8 home runs
Steven Caseres 6'4 7 home runs
Kyle Orr 6'5 5 home runs

All from Odgen

Kyle Russel 6'5 11 home runs in 219 ab's. Okay but hardly Billy Ashley ish.

2008-12-02 08:59:37
178.   ToyCannon
176
Didn't seem sane at the time. Every serious roto player I knew, felt Byrnes had been reamed by Kenny Williams. Counting on Justin Upton to be your starting RF at age 20 is no reason to trade someone with the minor league credentials of Quentin.
2008-12-02 09:01:00
179.   blue22
174 - Lots of good info on that topic here:

http://www.mlb4u.com/wiki/index.php/Minor_League_Assignments

The contract of a Player with five or more years of Major League service, not including service while on the Military List (or seven or more years of Major League service, including service while on the Military List), can not be assigned to a minor league or foreign team without the Player's written consent.

2008-12-02 09:07:42
180.   ToyCannon
103
If they sign him to be a full time player that would be a disaster but as the right hand side of a platoon he has a career .393 OBP. I've said before if you mix and match Loretta with any number of left handed free agent 2nd baseman like Vazquez or Lopez you could have a productive tandem.
2008-12-02 09:08:58
181.   GoBears
150 re: Burrell's splits.

Woah. How the heck did that happen? Did the mean Philly fans make him sad?

2008-12-02 09:13:26
182.   GoBears
173. I would like a Loretta signing. Aurilia, uh, no.
2008-12-02 09:16:47
183.   Jon Weisman
Disappointing news that "The Visitor" didn't get a best picture nomination for the Indie Spirit Awards. It was much, much better than "Rachel Getting Married" or "Wendy and Lucy."

http://www.variety.com/awardcentral_article/VR1117996677.html

2008-12-02 09:18:08
184.   Eric Stephen
164
Dunn's hit 40HRs for 3yrs in a row

It's actually 5 years in a row. At exactly 40 HR each year. He's the only player in MLB history to hit the same number of HR (I believe greater than zero) five years in a row.

2008-12-02 09:20:49
185.   ToyCannon
Both Loretta and Aurilia hit LHP at a clip that they could be useful platoon mates. Loretta at 2nd base, Aurilia at 3rd/1st if DeWitt becomes the 3rd baseman and struggles against LHP. These guys do have value, they just shouldn't make very much money as plenty of players do what they do. Having them on the bench is not the worse thing in the world. Isn't Rich, Nomar without the injury worry?
2008-12-02 09:22:10
186.   ToyCannon
181
Vitamin B shots wear off?
2008-12-02 09:32:44
187.   GoBears
185. My preference for Loretta over Aurilia is mostly about defense and age. If I were a pitcher, I'd rather have Loretta behind me. That's why I like Hudson too. Or am I wrong about which guys are better defenders?

I agree with you that Aurilia is a healthier version of Nomar - bad defense at any position you choose, and occasional pop at the plate.

2008-12-02 09:35:48
188.   Eric Stephen
184
I stand corrected. At the lower spectrum (1 & 2 HR), there are a few players with 5 years in a row of the same total:

6 in a row
Al Evans - 2 HR (1945-1950)

5 in a row
Dave Hansen - 2 HR (2001-2005)
Nellie Fox - 2 HR (1959-1963)
Ed Romero - 1 HR (1980-1984)
Leo Durocher - 1 HR (1936-1940)
Bid McPhee - 1 HR (1895-1899)

Those are the only players besides Adam Dunn with 5 consecutive seasons of the same number of nonzero HR.

2008-12-02 09:38:36
189.   blue22
187 - Aurilia appears to be about 18 days younger than Loretta.

188 - Dunn appears to have only 4 at exactly 40 HR's, with the first of 5 consecutive years at 40+ starting with 46 homers in '04.

Hey, somebody has to keep you guys honest :)

2008-12-02 09:40:01
190.   Eric Stephen
189
Now I feel stupid. Good catch. :)
2008-12-02 09:42:51
191.   blue22
190 - Impressive nonetheless! I like Vinny Castilla having back-to-back triple crown stats of .304/40/113 a few years back. Now that takes planning!
2008-12-02 09:51:22
192.   GoBears
187 Aurilia appears to be about 18 days younger than Loretta.

I disagree. He may BE 18 days younger. But he APPEARS to be several years older.

2008-12-02 09:51:51
193.   GoBears
Oops. 192 refers of course to 189.
2008-12-02 09:56:38
194.   Eric Stephen
191
I do specifically remember (because I looked it up in September) that for seasons I believe 3 HR or greater, the only players with 4 or more years of the same total are:

Dunn, 40 (2005-2008)
Ken Boyer, 24 (1961-1964)
Fredd Lynn, 23 (1984-1987)

2008-12-02 09:58:01
195.   blue22
192 - Ha, point taken. But Aurilia also appears to still be able to hit a lefty, to the tune of a .899 OPS the last 3 years against the southpaws in 400+ AB's.

He could be an ideal platoon partner for DeWitt, Loney, and whatever other lefty we might get for the IF.

2008-12-02 09:59:47
196.   old dodger fan
24 players offered arbitration. That seems low. Anyone here know how many were offered arbitration in the last 4 or 5 years?
2008-12-02 10:02:44
197.   GoBears
195. Fair enough. But I still prefer Loretta's defense.
2008-12-02 10:03:16
198.   Xeifrank
Do we know if Kent and or Nomar are retiring or are willing to come back for one more year. With all the holes in the infield to fill, they could help with depth issues and keep us from overpaying someone else to a long term deal.
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 10:03:34
199.   Eric Stephen
Is there a better young OF in MLB history (in terms of both current and future career value) than the 1975 Red Sox?

LF Rice - age 22, .309/.350/.491, 127 OPS+ (128 OPS+ career)
CF Lynn - age 23, .331/.401/.566, 161 OPS+, MVP (129 OPS+ career)
RF Evans - age 23, .274/.353/.456, 119 OPS+ (127 OPS+ career)

2008-12-02 10:07:05
200.   Harold M Johnson
198 NO ON KENT
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-02 10:07:11
201.   CajunDodger
198
If we can get Loretta, I would prefer him to Nomar and there are a host of players I would prefer over Kent who would be cheaper.

I like the idea of signing Hudson and another bat and allowing DeWitt and Hu every opportunity to win the SS and 3B job outright.

2008-12-02 10:08:36
202.   ToyCannon
Scott Elbert is number 37 in MLB.COM prospect list.
http://tinyurl.com/62vezx

Kazmir upside if starting, Wagner if in relief.

2008-12-02 10:09:50
203.   ToyCannon
Hu continues to prove he can't hit. Currently struggling to maintain a 300 OBP in the winter leagues. Hard to believe this is the same guy we saw in Sept 2007.
2008-12-02 10:10:26
204.   ToyCannon
198
Why would Kent be a cheap alternative?
2008-12-02 10:11:39
205.   ToyCannon
199
And Dewey ended up being the best of the three not that anyone noticed.
2008-12-02 10:18:22
206.   Xeifrank
204. Cheap in terms of Salary x Years. If Kent would only come back for $10mil, then yeah forget it. He's probably worth about $5Mil for one year. Hudson who was mentioned would probably get a 3 or 4 year deal and I believe he has some injury concerns, doesn't he?
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 10:29:05
207.   Eric Stephen
199 ,205
There are a scant few teams with 3 young OF. Here are the teams in MLB history with 3 OF age 23 or younger with at least a 100 OPS+ (in 400+ PA):

1910 & 1911 Red Sox (Tris Speaker, Duffy Lewis, Harry Hooper)
1975 Red Sox (Lynn, Dewey, Rice)
1986 Rangers (Ruben Sierra, Pete Incaviglia, Oddibe McDowell)

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/mMru

2008-12-02 10:33:23
208.   Gen3Blue
205 Being out there with those other two guys early in their careers seems to have made him chronically overlooked/under-rated.
I use to love to watch him set up for throws, and what an arm!
2008-12-02 10:35:28
209.   Harold M Johnson
206 The cost of Kent cannot me measured in years or dollars.
2008-12-02 10:35:43
210.   Humma Kavula
203 That's too bad. I'm rooting for Hu.

Questions:

How much value does an average MLB shortstop provide on offense plus defense? How much value does Hu provide on defense? What does that mean he'd have to hit in order to be pulling his weight if he starts at SS for the Dodgers in 2009?

I have no idea how to answer any of these questions.

2008-12-02 10:38:50
211.   Sagehen
Off the top of my head, I remember when the Montreal Expos outfield was hailed as one of the best ever with Tim Raines, Andre Dawson, and Warren Cromartie. Cromartie was obviously the weak link. They put up some nice numbers together in the early 80s, though. For that matter, I remember when people debated whether Raines or Henderson was the best leadoff man of all-time. All this is now relevant as Dawson's Hall of Fame credentials are debates, Raines is I think unjustly ignored, and Henderson is considered a shoe-in. Would Dawson and Raines get better consideration if they hadn't spent so much of their careers playing for Montreal?
2008-12-02 10:40:25
212.   cargill06
Our Shortstops last year provided a line of .244/.310/.367 and a +6 number on defense. So it's not like the bar is set very high.
2008-12-02 10:41:45
213.   Eric Stephen
211
I think Raines is a slam dunk HOF, but I doubt he'll ever get in.
2008-12-02 10:43:00
214.   Humma Kavula
211 and Henderson is considered a shoo-in.

Rickey Henderson was better than Dawson. He was also better than Raines (though it's closer). Henderson SHOULD be a shoo-in.

The thing is, that's not the cutoff for the HOF. You don't have to be as good as Henderson to deserve to get in.

Raines, obviously, deserves to get in. I wouldn't vote for Dawson, but I think he WILL get in soon (next year or the year after). I think that will help Raines's case and that after a significant wait, he will be elected.

2008-12-02 10:46:47
215.   cargill06
I wonder why Raines and Henderson weren't regular CF's? I'm sure they both had the talent and speed for it.
2008-12-02 10:49:40
216.   Eric Stephen
215
In the case of Henderson, it was because Dwayne Murphy was outstanding in CF. Henderson did play CF when he was traded to the Yankees.
2008-12-02 10:51:44
217.   MC Safety
Please no Kent. He doesn't bring anything positive to the table.
2008-12-02 10:52:35
218.   Tripon
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/sherman_if_pettitte_signs_elsewhere_in_bronx_hell_be_a_phony_forever_rr/

I'm disgusted by Sherman. He can't make any more silly rumors, so he has to make this idiotic attack piece.

2008-12-02 11:00:32
219.   MC Safety
218 Don't forget, the man is Roger Clemens best friend.
2008-12-02 11:01:49
220.   Ken Noe
My read on Nedster's comments to Diamond is that he might well go with Hu at short, but only if he can add to the offense at other positions.
2008-12-02 11:02:04
221.   El Lay Dave
215 I seem to recall Raines not having much of an arm. The Expos moved him to LF after he came through the minors as a 2B.
2008-12-02 11:06:46
222.   El Lay Dave
211 Perhaps that was Cromartie, Dawson and Ellis Valentine for the Expos? I think Raines replaced Cromartie in LF and Valentine was gone shortly after that.
2008-12-02 11:07:17
223.   KG16
I always had a bit of a soft spot for Rickey Henderson. To my mind, he and Brett Butler are the prototypical lead off men.
2008-12-02 11:07:58
224.   Tripon
Except Rickey Henderson isn't the prototypical lead off man. Few players have his power.
2008-12-02 11:08:36
225.   kinbote
The new Gurnick piece says absolutely nothing new.
2008-12-02 11:10:27
226.   kinbote
223 I'm more of a McKay Christensen guy myself. ;)
2008-12-02 11:12:43
227.   Eric Stephen
223
I definitely loved Brett Butler. His bunting prowess was amazing to me.

I didn't pay much attention to all the caught stealings back then.

I even appreciated Butler as a Giant! He was the Giant who slid into 2B and was called for interference to preserve Hershiser's scoreless streak in 1988 (Juan Uribe scored but the run was nullified after Butler was called for sliding out of the baseline; Ernest Riles was thus charged with a GIDP).

2008-12-02 11:17:18
228.   oshea2002
Foxsports blog piece on the Dodgers.

http://tinyurl.com/6pdx8j

2008-12-02 11:20:25
229.   Eric Stephen
Only three players in MLB history had more seasons with 85+ walks with single-digit HR, than Brett Butler's 7 such seasons:

Wade Boggs, Max "Camera Eye" Bishop, and Eddie Collins all had 8 such seasons:

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/7xbY

2008-12-02 11:25:14
230.   Bob Timmermann
My brother has revealed his Hall of Fame ballot to me. He's a BBWAA member.

However, he's voting for the US Soccer Hall of Fame.

2008-12-02 11:25:42
231.   cargill06
227 Juan Uribe?
2008-12-02 11:27:05
232.   Sagehen
222 No, I just double-checked. Raines replaced Valentine, who was traded to the Mets during Raines' rookie season. Cromartie was gone after 1983. Interesting. Cromartie was 24th in the MVP balloting in 81 and was gone two years later. The proclamation I'm thinking of about the Montreal outfield must have come after Raines' rookie year.
2008-12-02 11:28:31
233.   Eric Stephen
231
Ha! Juan Uribe may be older than you think, but of course I meant Jose Uribe.
2008-12-02 11:28:48
234.   oshea2002
225 - so discouraging. Essentially, it said to me - we aren't signing any difference makers, but will certainly dabble in the middle market for non-contributors just to trot out some live bodies. Great.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

2008-12-02 11:29:37
235.   Jon Weisman
230 - The misdirection there reminded me of Marcus Allen's glorious 74-yard touchdown run in the Super Bowl.
2008-12-02 11:29:56
236.   MC Safety
123 Milton Bradley wants a 4 year/40 million contract. Not to say he won't get it, but I assume he's just going to accept the Rangers offer and try FA next year.

Umm.....? Do you have some kind of crystal ball that reads the minds of GM's around the league? You're reply might as well of just said "I hate Milton Bradley".

2008-12-02 11:30:17
237.   D4P
he's voting for the US Soccer Hall of Fame

Do we really need an entire hall...?

2008-12-02 11:31:50
238.   Jacob Burch
183 Glad to see Ballast get some love. I'm not going to see Synecdoche until I know I can see it twice within a week (which anyone who loved it seems to have done), and haven't been able to catch The Wrestler yet.
2008-12-02 11:31:56
239.   Bill Crain
227
Paraphrasing from memory, this is what Bill James wrote about Brett Butler:

If you use his caught-stealings to cancel an equal number of walks, he still had an OBP close to 400. And if you evaluate him that way, now you got a leadoff hitter who's 30 for 30 as a base stealer. He didn't score 100 runs per year on blind luck.

2008-12-02 11:33:49
240.   Tripon
236 Because teams seem to be wary giving out long contracts to injured players, Rafael Furcal notwithstanding? Milton Bradley played 75, 96, 61, and 126 games in the last four years. If you're going to pay big bucks, the first test would be if he can play everyday, and it seems Milton Bradley doesn't pass that.
2008-12-02 11:34:43
241.   Sagehen
237 An entire Hall of Fame just for Mia Hamm?
2008-12-02 11:36:59
242.   MC Safety
224 Dude, your comments just keep getting cockier and cockier.

Prototype-A form or species that serves as an original type or example.

So, yeah he is the perfect example of what a leadoff hitter should be. Therefore he is prototypical, right? The number of leadoff hitters with his power is irrelevant.

2008-12-02 11:37:16
243.   Sagehen
Can a leadoff man get Hall of Fame consideration without 3000 hits? Put another way: why did Butler get no consideration (I'm not arguing that he should have gone in), and does Raines have the hits to get in?
2008-12-02 11:39:00
244.   raygu
from MILB-Watson on James McDonald:

They said it: "He'd started for us his entire career, then switched to the bullpen. The thing that stood out for me was the four more feet of fastball. He was up to 96 mph. It provides some versatility for us. We can leave him in the bullpen or we can give him a chance for a rotation spot." -- Dodgers Farm Director De Jon Watson

A bullpen of McDonald, Elbert, Wade, Kuo and Broxton would be pretty dominant.

2008-12-02 11:39:15
245.   MC Safety
240 Umm... there is another league called the American League where they have a position that requires one to only swing a bat, it's called the Designated Hitter.
2008-12-02 11:41:29
246.   Tripon
245 Yes, and Milton Bradley only played 126 games DHing for the Rangers. He's just simply not healthy enough to justify in my opinion.
2008-12-02 11:41:49
247.   Bob Timmermann
241
Hang down your head, Thomas Dooley.
2008-12-02 11:42:23
248.   bhsportsguy
Last year, 17 players were offered arbitration, 2 accepted, Michael Barrett and Andy Pettite.

There were 16 players signed that resulted in 21 picks for their former teams. This includes a few players like Torji Hunter, who was signed by the Angels prior the arbitration deadline and that automatically awarded two picks to the Twins.

2008-12-02 11:43:26
249.   Jacob Burch
I think I may name my son Torji. What a cool sounding name.
2008-12-02 11:45:46
250.   Eric Stephen
243
Richie Ashburn and Max Carey, to name a few, didn't get to 3000.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-12-02 11:46:42
251.   Eric Stephen
249
Imagine if the Colts' backup QB named his son Torji!
2008-12-02 11:49:04
252.   MC Safety
You can't put up with a 163 OPS + for 126 games?

There are things called backups, too, so when one of your players gets injured you have a guy ready to go! What a concept!

2008-12-02 11:49:41
253.   ToyCannon
245
Doesn't that work against your argument? He was a DH and still only managed to play 126 games. The Free Agent pool is full of great hitting DH only types with Milton, Giambi, Dunn, Burrel, and of course Manny. Some you can plug into LF and live the with defense but you can't plug Milton into LF because then he'd been even more likely to get hurt. Of them all, sadly he is the most likely to be only a DH because of his propensity for injury.
2008-12-02 11:49:41
254.   Eric Stephen
245 ,246
At the next DT outing, should you guys get in line behind JoeyP & CanuckDodger at the dunking booth, or should we have American Gladiator-esque giant q-tips to use for the duel?
2008-12-02 11:51:59
255.   ToyCannon
252
If he ever does that again then you have a point but it was far and away a peak season for Milton.
2008-12-02 11:54:25
256.   D4P
253
If Milton played defense the way Manny "plays defense", maybe he wouldn't get hurt so much.
2008-12-02 11:55:46
257.   cargill06
254 Or perhaps a cook-off. I'll volunteer as a judge.
2008-12-02 11:57:13
258.   Kevin Lewis
How bout a DT potluck?
2008-12-02 11:57:39
259.   Kevin Lewis
ooooooooh chili cook-off?
2008-12-02 11:58:16
260.   MC Safety
253 I'll take Milton over Giambi 365 days a year. Giambi isn't even close to Milton, imo. Both are huge injury risks. One hits in the .240's one is consistently a .300 hitter. The other guys you named could pass as LF's in the NL. Milton is the best DH available. I'm not sitting here saying they guy can play the field. How many times you gonna make that point, TC? We have had this convo many a times.
2008-12-02 11:58:34
261.   Eric Stephen
257 ,258 ,259
Genius ideas all.
2008-12-02 12:01:36
262.   bhsportsguy
260 I think one thing could be happening, the market value of DH's could be dropping. Teams may be wary of investing big sums to players to just DH. Teams like Tampa Bay won't do it and the Yankees will certainly look to spend their money in other areas first.
2008-12-02 12:02:54
263.   MC Safety
254 I'd be ok with a one on one wiffle ball battle, too. You might as well just call my new 2 seamer Elliot Ness, cos that thing is untouchable.
2008-12-02 12:05:30
264.   underdog
Someone switched MC's coffee with decaf this morning. Poor chap. ;-)

There's a live chat on MLBTR if anyone cares. They're often entertaining, if pointless. Much like the movie "Wanted."

2008-12-02 12:07:16
265.   MC Safety
264 You're just bitter I've had the playoffs locked up for 3 weeks, and you're barely crawling in. ; )
2008-12-02 12:10:02
266.   cargill06
There are too many guys winking at each other for my comfort... how about that Angelena Jolie?
2008-12-02 12:10:54
267.   Icaros
Yeah, Chili Thoughts! I just made my first non-spice-packet batch this weekend. I always use beer in lieu of water. This time I used Pacifico, with lemon and lime wedges included as an added exotic bonus.
2008-12-02 12:11:05
268.   Eric Stephen
264
Angelina Jolie: "Kill one, save a thousand."

Frank McCourt: "Trade one (prospect), save a million (dollars)."

2008-12-02 12:11:58
269.   Eric Stephen
266
There are too many guys winking at each other for my comfort

"Those aren't pillows."

2008-12-02 12:13:19
270.   Icaros
269

"So, how about those Bears, huh?"

2008-12-02 12:13:34
271.   underdog
265 Nah, bitter doesn't describe it. Relieved? Yeah, that's it. Hey, I had the 4th most points in that league. You're lucky I had the gawdawful weekend I had (Negative -2 points from Peyton? That better not happen again) since yours wasn't much better. ;-) But anyway, good luck!
2008-12-02 12:15:24
272.   underdog
Speaking of Angelina Jolie, anyone ever hear Patton Oswalt's bit about George Lucas? It has a hilarious Jolie-related punchline. Download that sucker.
2008-12-02 12:20:55
273.   Eric Stephen
272
Hilarious. I'm re-listening right now.
2008-12-02 12:22:55
274.   MC Safety
271 I was so close to starting Cassel. But I just couldn't sit Eli when you had Peyton starting.
2008-12-02 12:27:22
275.   Xeifrank
210. Not sure if this is the type of answer you are looking for but a "league average" player at any position adds 20 runs or 2 wins above a replacement level player. Hu fell far short of that last year, and is projected to do so again this year due to being a lightweight hitter.
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 12:33:48
276.   D4P
From Eric Neyer:

One of the frequent problems with free agents is that by the time you get them, they've already given their best years to the game

Funny how few GMs seem to comprehend this simple concept.

2008-12-02 12:35:14
277.   Harold M Johnson
275 Do you think it would be possible or close to possible for the Dodgers to be league average at every position next year given the seeming budget restrictions?
2008-12-02 12:40:23
278.   D4P
by the time you get them, they've already given their best years to the game

And not only that, but players lose a not-insignificant portion of their motivation for performing after signing a big free agent contract.

2008-12-02 12:41:59
279.   Bob Timmermann
278
I'm sure you have an empirical study to prove this effect other than something like "the player got older."
2008-12-02 12:44:29
280.   Bob Timmermann
News flash:
Colin Jose has been inducted into the Canadian Soccer Hall of Fame.

This is no drill.

2008-12-02 12:46:02
281.   El Lay Dave
277 I predict 81 wins for that team .
2008-12-02 12:48:55
282.   Icaros
281

Are you talking about the Lakers? I'm pretty sure they'll lose at least one more game.

2008-12-02 12:50:31
283.   D4P
279
No study, just reason. Before signing a big contract, a player's various motivating factors include "desire for big contract, and wealth and security that accompany it".

After signing a big contract (especially in the years prior to the next "contract year"), that particular motivating factor is almost inevitably weaker, if not absent.

Whether and how that affects performance is a separate question.

2008-12-02 12:51:16
284.   D4P
282
I noticed today that the Lakers have played twice as many home games as road games thus far, by far the largest ratio of home to road games in the league.
2008-12-02 12:52:01
285.   Humma Kavula
281 I think he meant "at least league average at every position."

That's an interesting question. The Dodgers will be above average at catcher, left field, center field (if that's Kemp). They will have questions or be below average at the other outfield position (Jones/Pierre), first base (Loney may improve or may not -- we've had that conversation), third base (DeWitt).

And that doesn't even include 2B or SS. Which is why I asked my question. If Hu could make that slot average, it would take care of a problem quite neatly. Xei is convincing that Hu won't be average next year, which means the Dodgers have to decide if they want to pursue an alternative or have SS be one of the coupla positions that a contending team can carry a below-average guy.

2008-12-02 12:54:34
286.   Humma Kavula
285 Of course I meant that the Dodgers would be above average in RF (Ethier), not left.
2008-12-02 12:56:34
287.   Eric Stephen
284
That will change soon enough, as 4 of the next 5 are on the road.

I will abstain from commenting on how the Lakers will do in this stretch, as the last time I did so led to loss #1.

2008-12-02 12:56:35
288.   Louis in SF
276

While that statement maybe true for some free agents, there are many who are productive: Manny, Barry Bonds, Derrick Lowe, Frank Thomas in his first stint with the A's, to just name a few. The key is when you are getting them, and how many are on your team.

Ironically if the Dodgers can't get the top free agents they need, this year they may do far better not signing any long term contracts. Perhaps this is the Ned plan this year.

2008-12-02 12:56:44
289.   Xeifrank
277. No, it's almost impossible for the Dodgers to be atleast league average at every position next year. Currently, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF are all below league average. In the rotation, Billingsley and Kuroda are above league average, Kershaw will need to improve to get there and they still have two more spots in the rotation to fill. Colletti has a tough puzzle to put together this year. The dead weight contracts are killers (Pierre, Jones, Schmidt) along with any financial resraints that may or may not be in place. The two saving graces are the young good (Billingsley, Kemp, Ethier, Martin, Broxton, Guo) players under control and the weak division.
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 12:57:50
290.   Bob Timmermann
"Do players out-perform in their free agency year?"

http://www.philbirnbaum.com/freeagent.ppt

2008-12-02 12:57:53
291.   cargill06
285 As I posted in the past our offensive splits we're really unimpressive postion for position. As long as Hu can match our SS produtcion or come close of 77 OPS+ that LA Dodgers Shortstops posted last year I'd be very happy considering the defensive upgrade.
2008-12-02 13:06:41
292.   D4P
290
You've posted that before, and it addresses a different issue (to wit, whether players perform better in their contract years).

I'm talking about how they perform after signing the big contract. Actually, I'm not talking about how they perform, but rather what motivates them to perform.

2008-12-02 13:10:12
293.   Bob Timmermann
292
So essentially, this is all just your own supposition? You don't have the evidence to prove it unless you're going to undertake some massive psychological testing of major league players.

I think it's quite easy to be skeptical of your idea. Especially when many of your ideas seem to built out of personal animus toward certain players or a dislike of society as a whole.

2008-12-02 13:11:52
294.   Eric Stephen
Man, those giants q-tips are going to be used quite a bit.
2008-12-02 13:15:03
295.   Bob Timmermann
I prefer the big metal balls you can roll around in.
2008-12-02 13:18:48
296.   Jacob Burch
I think Eric Stephen's playoff beard looked ill-trimmed, and his support of certain sports team should be discredited!

I just want in on the Eliminator.

2008-12-02 13:19:05
297.   cargill06
How does Ray Duhram sound? I wouldn't want him blocking anyone as much as the next guy, would he be willing to take less than 2 years. I think Ray Duhram + CC= 90+ wins.
2008-12-02 13:20:23
298.   D4P
How does Ray Duhram sound?

Unfamiliar.

2008-12-02 13:20:53
299.   Eric Stephen
296
Neko Case is Ukranian for "Biz Markee wannabee"
2008-12-02 13:21:53
300.   cargill06
297 I meant 2 years or less
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-12-02 13:27:14
301.   Jacob Burch
298 Duhhhhh Rams. Duhhhhh Lakers. Duhhhhh Dod'ers.
2008-12-02 13:27:55
302.   Jacob Burch
299 I'd like to see that cover. She does do a tremendous rendition of a Tom Waits song, which may be the closest we get.
2008-12-02 13:33:54
303.   Jon Weisman
Tony Jackson is beating the Juan Castro drum again!

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2008/12/back-in-the-sad.html

2008-12-02 13:37:38
304.   Bob Timmermann
Maybe the Dodgers can bring back Chad Fonville. Or Alex Cora. Or ask Rafael Landestoy or Rafael Bournigal to come out of retirement.
2008-12-02 13:38:26
305.   MC Safety
294 295 I was a big Assault fan. I always wanted to shoot one of those rocket launcher thingys.
2008-12-02 13:42:05
306.   ToyCannon
Ever since the Lakers/Clippers started playing at Staples they spend most of February on the road so they make up for it by playing a lot of home games early. I think it is the Grammy nonsense but I could be wrong.
2008-12-02 13:44:12
307.   Bluebleeder87
304

what is Tripp Cromer up to these days.

2008-12-02 13:51:33
308.   cargill06
Rob Neyer said in his blog today that Jeter is one of the most overrated players ever. A career 120 OPS+, that has to be top 5 of all time at SS. Right?
2008-12-02 13:51:33
309.   Bluebleeder87
for those of you to young to know who Tripp Cromer is [ http://tinyurl.com/6yjsls ]
2008-12-02 13:52:07
310.   MC Safety
304 No love for Rafael Belliard?
2008-12-02 13:52:50
311.   bhsportsguy
306 Grammys shuts down Staples for about 2 weeks, Staples also hosts the Pac-10 Mens Basketball Tournament and World Figure Skating Championship in March.
2008-12-02 13:53:31
312.   Bluebleeder87
308

I've only seen him play a few times but he seems like a legit great player, he's not eye catching great but he is a very good ball player.

2008-12-02 13:56:37
313.   Jacob Burch
308 He's shouldn't be playing short, if you believe most scouting surveys and/or defensive metrics. With that defensive liability, he probably shouldn't be one of the top three paid players in the league.
2008-12-02 13:58:55
314.   ToyCannon
308
Bingo
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/9Hw5

OPS+ you are correct, I expect Neyer is deducting his defensive value but even with Win Shares which takes that into account Neyer seems to be off base. Maybe he wanted some Yankee hate mail.

2008-12-02 14:00:10
315.   cargill06
313 I'm sure he had to have been at least average defensively when he was in his 20's.
2008-12-02 14:00:18
316.   ToyCannon
Until they moved Carlos Guillen off of SS I think he was one of the most underrated players.
2008-12-02 14:01:02
317.   Jacob Burch
314 Jeter still has his down years to play to lower that OPS+, and he's currently paid/has the fame of a top 5 player in the league, which he certainly isn't. If Derek Jeter had been in almost any other team's system, I doubt he gets Biggio-level love.
2008-12-02 14:01:42
318.   cargill06
314 Blast, how could I forget Arky Vaughn?
2008-12-02 14:01:51
319.   ToyCannon
The Yankee's would have been a much better team if they had moved Jeter to CF when Arod came over, kept Arod at SS, and traded or signed a left hand hitting 3rd baseman.
2008-12-02 14:01:58
320.   Jacob Burch
315 Bill James and some weird princeton survey called him the worst shortstop in the league, and I don't think it was much better even in his prime, prime years.
2008-12-02 14:04:35
321.   Tripon
Rays Index points us to a Danny Knobler report that indicates the Rays are willing to trade shortstop Jason Bartlett. Not only that, but the Rays had brief talks with the Twins about acquiring Delmon Young or Denard Span.

It'll be hilarious if Bartlett was traded for Young... again. It'll be the ultimate sell high, and buy low move.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-02 14:06:45
322.   bhsportsguy
314 If A-Rod had stayed at SS, would he have challenged Wagner as the greatest SS of all time.

Its arguable that in the last 35 years, Morgan, Schmidt and Barry Bonds would be candidates to move onto that list as the greatest of all-time.

All time catcher has always been a hard one for me to pin down, Cochrane, Berra, Campanella and Bench are names that you think about first. Mike Piazza is probably a greater hitter than all of them and his game-calling skill was generally acknowledged of being pretty good. But those other 4 catchers would rate above him defensively and they also each won MVPs and World Series titles.

First base and SS have been etched in stone since the HOF opened, Gehring and Wagner. As far as the two other OFs, one would be Ruth and we could have a long debate on the other one. But Barry certainly had argument to be included on this list.

2008-12-02 14:07:27
323.   ToyCannon
317
If you are going to use his contract to make that point what does that make the 2008 version of Giambi? No one is claiming that Jeter is one of the best 20 players in baseball anymore just because the Yankee's opened the vault for him. I think he's been lousy at SS for so long that people forget how good he was at one time. It would be as if Nomar had been playing SS for the last 5 years. Everyone would only remember how terrible he has been in that time and not remember how athletic he played the position when he first came up.
2008-12-02 14:08:19
324.   Bluebleeder87
they interviewed him once with Alex Rodriguez & he him self said he wasn't exactly Ozzie Smith out there (not in those words but you get the idea) so I'm sure he is aware of his shortcomings...
2008-12-02 14:09:49
325.   ToyCannon
322
When Arod can field SS with a glove the size of his hand then maybe we could get some perspective.
2008-12-02 14:13:12
326.   bhsportsguy
325 And throw pebbles along with the ball to first base.
2008-12-02 14:13:17
327.   Jacob Burch
323 Contract was an incomplete criteria: I think Neyer is (possibly using an emotionally-skewed sample) refering to the undoubtily countless emails he gets calling Jeter the best ball player in the league because he's a Winner. FJM Did a piece on such an article where X amount of dudes would take Jeter over A-Rod, etc.

I have to think Neyer still gets too many emails from people who think Jeter is a top 5 player right now, and thus his comment. It may not be a fair sampling of the general baseball watching base, but it sounds like what he's reacting too.

I'd defer to Reg about Jeter's prime years at defense, but I seem to remember reading he's always been pretty bad.

2008-12-02 14:24:36
328.   Kevin Lewis
I have never been to the Staples Center. I hope to one day
2008-12-02 14:29:46
329.   Bob Timmermann
328
On behalf of the LA Times, I feel duty bound to tell you that "Staples Center" does not have a definite article in front of it.
2008-12-02 14:30:44
330.   heyblue
In case anyone is interested, here is awesome article examining the 1981 Sporting News Baseball Yearbook predictions for baseball in the year 2000:

http://wezen-ball.blogspot.com/2008/12/baseball-in-year-2000-predictions-from.html

2008-12-02 14:31:44
331.   Humma Kavula
What's the big deal about the Neyer post? He says Jeter is right now a very valuable player "who can start every day for just about anybody," but that in five years he will not be capable of starting every day.

Well, of course. He'll be 41, won't he?

The Two Steinbrenners with the Same Name will surely give Jeter a contract extension next year. By the end of that, Jeter will be a very highly paid bench player. It won't be a good stiutation, but the Yankees can afford it. And then, in 2018 or whatever, he'll go to the Hall of Fame as a Yankee.

Not sure what's so controversial here.

2008-12-02 14:33:20
332.   ToyCannon
327
In over 495 post season ab's Jeter does what he does during the season.
Postseason 309/377/469
Regular 316/387/458

Arod
Postseason 279/361/483
Regular 306/389/578

Arod has only had 147 at bats in the postseason so maybe he'd normalize with more at bats. Then again maybe if he'd done more in the post season he'd have gotten his opportunity to get more at bats. It would not be shocking to find that the baseball community would expect the "best" player in baseball to hit like it when October comes. He hits like Derek Jeter but the expectations are that he should hit like Reggie.

2008-12-02 14:33:26
333.   Jacob Burch
328 I've been to half a dozen Kings games, and two Clippers/Pacers games. One great in each category (Reggie saving the say after the clippers kept fouling him, to the great chagrin of the guy in front of me; Turco and a bunch of other players getting in a Melee and setting a few records for penalty time given).
2008-12-02 14:35:01
334.   Eric Stephen
322
In the 1976 Topps baseball card set, there were cards for The Sporting News all-time greats:

C - Cochrane
1B - Gehrig
2B - Hornsby
3B - Traynor
SS - Wagner
OF - Williams
OF - Cobb
OF - Ruth
RHP - Johnson
LHP - Grove

2008-12-02 14:45:35
335.   Bob Timmermann
According to the press release from the Pac-10, Mike Nixon of ASU has a 4.05 GPA.

I didn't think any undergrad programs gave out bonus points like they do in high school.

And he's going to Arizona State anyway.

2008-12-02 14:49:17
336.   Bob Timmermann
334
Pie Traynor really had good PR for a long time. He was a good player, but an OPS+ of 107 means that he better have been able to pick it really well.

I assume either Mike Schmidt or Alex Rodriguez would get the title of greatest third baseman ever.

2008-12-02 14:50:39
337.   Eric Stephen
A full playoff share for the Dodgers came to $102,793.54, not a bad chunk of change for those making at or near the MLB minimum of $390,000. The Dodgers awarded 49 full shares, 5.797 partial shares (I wonder how they came up with that figure), and 22 cash awards.

I wonder what Tony Abreu, on the DL the entire year, got (I'm guessing a full share).

http://tinyurl.com/598dqa

2008-12-02 14:52:09
338.   ToyCannon
I was always a big fan of the young Eddie Mathews. 3 straight years with an OPS+ > 170 from age 21-23. Now that is a phenom.
2008-12-02 14:52:38
339.   D4P
335
I had one undergrad semester in which I received 3 As and 1 A+, which yielded a GPA of 4.25.
2008-12-02 14:55:43
340.   Bob Timmermann
But North Carolina is a real school.
2008-12-02 14:55:59
341.   Bob Timmermann
Excuse, me Oregon is a real school.
2008-12-02 14:57:35
342.   D4P
341
That sentence reads like a combination of mock Japanese and mock Irish.
2008-12-02 14:57:40
343.   GoBears
308 Rob Neyer said in his blog today that Jeter is one of the most overrated players ever. A career 120 OPS+, that has to be top 5 of all time at SS. Right?

I haven't read the blog entry with Neyer's justification for that statement. But I don't think it's inconsistent say that Jeter is a HOFer (or top 5 or whatever) AND hugely overrated. Same could be said for Brett Favre, or Joe Montana in his day, or even Michael Jordan (Best ever? Yes. Overrated? Also yes.).

The main point must be about Jeter's gawdawful defense, which some people insist is terrific. But anyone who has been anointed a god by ESPN is likely overrated, no matter how good he might actually be.

The curious one for me was Tony Gwynn, who somehow seemed to go from under-appreciated to overrated in the blink of any eye.

Basically, I'm interpreting Neyer's statement as a comment not on Jeter, but on the "raters," whoever they may be.

2008-12-02 14:58:11
344.   ToyCannon
A UCLA alum displaying snobbery for other schools? Some of the stupidest people I know graduated from UCLA.
2008-12-02 14:59:39
345.   ToyCannon
Thin Tony was under appreciated because he was good at all aspects of the game, rotund Tony could only hit.
2008-12-02 14:59:45
346.   bhsportsguy
337 The Red Sox also had the same share amount. I believe that Manny was voted a 2/3 share by the Red Sox and I would guess that the Dodger players voted Manny a full share so Manny got some more pocket change.

Andy LaRoche probably got a partial share, Maddux, Stults, Elbert, McDonald, Repko would be others. I'll assume Jones and Penny got full shares.

Usually cash awards are given to the bat boys, clubhouse attendants, traveling secretary, front office staff (not Ned, but other office personnel).

2008-12-02 15:00:43
347.   oshea2002
Rosenthal is saying Javy Vasquez may be on his way to Atlanta, maybe that takes them out of the Peavy running.
2008-12-02 15:01:49
348.   D4P
or Joe Montana in his day

I feel good.

2008-12-02 15:01:53
349.   Bob Timmermann
344
But I bet those stupid UCLA grads would feel snobby toward an ASU grad.
2008-12-02 15:04:34
350.   cargill06
343 The 135 HR's probably has something to do with it.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-12-02 15:05:48
351.   bhsportsguy
Magic Johnson is the greatest basketball player I ever saw.

4+1 was the greatest 45 minutes or so I have ever spent at a sporting event.

The rice gelato I had in Florence was the best dessert I have ever eaten.

All of these statements are correct in my mind. Am I overrating all three of them, I don't think so.

2008-12-02 15:06:31
352.   Bob Timmermann
I think Jeter was nominated as a god by the Yankees own network and by Fox. Tim McCarver drools over Jeter just like Dick Vitale drools over whomever is the current point guard for Duke.
2008-12-02 15:07:27
353.   Kevin Lewis
329

That is why I didn't capitalize it.

2008-12-02 15:09:11
354.   Indiana Jon
322 The third outfielder is certainly a tough debate, but there's no way I'm not including Ted Williams on my all time greatest team. Sorry Mays, Mantle, Aaron and Cobb.

At third it would probably be Schmidt, but where is Chipper in comparison? He has to be up there.

2008-12-02 15:09:28
355.   bhsportsguy
I fear I will be reading stories like these for the next month.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122808016191367339.html#printMode

2008-12-02 15:10:15
356.   underdog
Some astute commentary from Jeff Passan on Yahoo, in his new post on arbitration offers (and lack thereof):

>>OK, so Arizona doesn't want to get stuck with Adam Dunn next season at the $15 million or so he'd get through arbitration. Fine. It's a short-sighted maneuver not to offer arbitration – he's bound to get a multi-year deal somewhere – but with the Diamondbacks offering arbitration to Orlando Hudson, Juan Cruz and Brandon Lyon, one scouting director wondered whether it was to avoid a glut of draft choices and the signing bonuses that accompany them.

While two sources dismissed the idea, one pointed out that with Dunn, Hudson and Cruz all Type A players likely to sign elsewhere, it would have left the Diamondbacks with seven high picks, including their own first-rounder, and eight if Lyon doesn't accept arbitration. According to Baseball America, Arizona spent only $4.49 million on its draft choices last season, the seventh-lowest number in the game.

Still, the specter of high draft picks, which most teams consider extremely valuable, did not scare off the Brewers or Dodgers. Each is in position to have six top picks if they cannot re-sign their eligible free agents, all of whom are unlikely to accept arbitration.<<

2008-12-02 15:10:56
357.   Eric Stephen
355
I saw that yesterday but neglected to post it here. You're welcome.
2008-12-02 15:11:30
358.   Indiana Jon
351 It's a shame you never got to see Bird.
2008-12-02 15:12:07
359.   oshea2002
Mike Belotti out (likely to AD), Chip Kelly in at U of Oregon.
2008-12-02 15:13:12
360.   bhsportsguy
356 I raised this topic when CC and Dunn were dealt at mid-season, how both the Indians and Reds would rather have players making far less than the bonuses they would have to pay to any draft picks they might get.

I also think the Reds might not have wanted to risk Dunn accepting arbitration.

2008-12-02 15:13:22
361.   Humma Kavula
353 Can we get a ruling on capitalizing the t in the?

I am inconsistent about it:

I read the New York Times, but I am currently reading "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao" and watching "The Godfather." On the other hand, I listen to the Beatles while I attend basketball games at the Forum.

Help me out here.

2008-12-02 15:14:14
362.   Eric Stephen
358
...and now it's on.
2008-12-02 15:14:36
363.   JoeyP
Gwynn probably had no defensive value, but during his 20 yr MLB career (82-01), he only once had a season in which he had more Ks than bbs. That was his rookie year in 82, and the ratio was only 16/14. Every season thereafter he had more walks than ks.

I guess you could argue that he was an empty singles hitter: Few walks, few HRs, few RBIS, & few runs scored.

But it's still tough to ignore a player that put up a career .388 OBP over 2,440 ABs.

2008-12-02 15:15:02
364.   bhsportsguy
358 Bird ... Oh the guy who was on losing end of an NCAA Title game and 2 out of 3 NBA Finals matches.

I kid, certainly those two will always be linked in basketball history.

2008-12-02 15:15:25
365.   Humma Kavula
354 Your all-time outfield is Ruth-Bonds-Williams? Who plays center?
2008-12-02 15:17:38
366.   bhsportsguy
357 He could be right and it would have been fun to see USC against a Texas or Florida offense.

Watching Oregon slice and dice Oregon State just had to be painful despite it getting USC in position to win another Rose Bowl trip. (See no jinx)

2008-12-02 15:17:39
367.   JoeyP
365 - Barry in his prime pre-roids.
2008-12-02 15:18:28
368.   Bob Timmermann
365
Andy Van Slyke.
2008-12-02 15:18:28
369.   Kevin Lewis
361

Now I wish I had kept quiet.

Has anyone else read the Wetzel column at Yahoo Sports?

2008-12-02 15:20:06
370.   bhsportsguy
365 For some reason, which outfield position that player played is not generally a consideration for their placement on all-time teams that I have seen.
2008-12-02 15:22:17
371.   Bob Timmermann
370
It's the reverse of the Gold Glove awards.

Or back in the day when college basketball All-America teams had four centers and one guard.

2008-12-02 15:22:32
372.   bhsportsguy
369 That's okay, its like the time I met Bob at the Central Branch of the City of Los Angeles Public Library.
2008-12-02 15:24:24
373.   Marty
Joe Montana was the best quarterback I ever saw.
2008-12-02 15:25:51
374.   Indiana Jon
365 Ruth, I can spare a few runs with that offense.
2008-12-02 15:30:55
375.   bhsportsguy
374 I believe Ruth did play CF in his early Yankee days.
2008-12-02 15:34:23
376.   Kevin Lewis
372

I can't go back there...too many fines

2008-12-02 15:34:35
377.   cargill06
Jimmy Clausen is the best quarterback I've ever seen, or maybe he's a system guy and most of the credit goes the schemetic advantage they have every game.
2008-12-02 15:36:47
378.   D4P
Jerry Rice was sure lucky he had a quarterback who could throw a 5-yard slant, after which JR would run 80 yards.

Jerry never could have racked up all that yardage with a QB who couldn't throw the ball 5 yards in the air.

2008-12-02 15:40:12
379.   Eric Stephen
378
Joe Montana did win two Super Bowls without Jerry Rice.
2008-12-02 15:41:21
380.   Eric Stephen
376
You're the Plaxico Burress of the LAPL.
2008-12-02 15:41:35
381.   Bob Timmermann
379
All of Joe Montana's TD passes:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/score.cgi?type=pass&id=MontJo01

2008-12-02 15:42:52
382.   Marty
Joe Montana is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life
2008-12-02 15:42:59
383.   Bob Timmermann
376
It's not like we run a credit check on you when you walk in the door.
2008-12-02 15:43:00
384.   bhsportsguy
378 After watching UCLA quarterbacks for the last few years, I would be happy if he could complete a 5 yard slant that allowed the receivor to run for more yards. Usually the ball is thrown behind them, too high or too low.

There are not too many postions in team sports where a player can succeed without the help of his teammates. Maybe a perimeter player in basketball can achieve a lot since they have the ball but Gretzky, Magic, Bird, Montana, etc., all needed great teammates to achieve their stardom.

2008-12-02 15:43:38
385.   bhsportsguy
382 I feel slighted.
2008-12-02 15:44:41
386.   Tripon
5:34pm: Rosenthal says an announcement could come Wednesday or Thursday. He says Lillibridge is in the deal along with a young starter, but it's not Reyes. Additionally, highly regarded catcher Tyler Flowers might be the third prospect (which would improve the trade quite a bit for the Sox).

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-02 15:44:52
387.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Montana is 20th on the all-time list for yards per passing attempt, 7.5 yards.
Otto Graham is the leader at 9.0 yards.

In second place, Tony Romo!

2008-12-02 15:46:29
388.   Indiana Jon
384 Let's be honest. Gretzky could have played with any team in the NHL and still have been great.
2008-12-02 15:46:54
389.   cargill06
386 There's no way the Braves would trade away Tyler Flowers for Javy Vazquez right? If so I guess Ned isn't the biggest donkey in the league.
2008-12-02 15:49:07
390.   Bob Timmermann
There was one season with the Kings when they had an injury on Gretzky's line and they kept calling up rookies that I had never heard of, nor remembered, and stuck them on his line and the team kept on scoring goals.
2008-12-02 15:50:39
391.   oshea2002
Eric - Hazelton is leaving SC. Not a shock.
2008-12-02 15:51:29
392.   bhsportsguy
388 True, but having Messier, Kurri, and Coffey didn't hurt.

Could Bird been the great Celtic without McHale, Parish, Johnson, and Archibald. Magic never won without Kareem, Wilkes, Worthy, Nixon, Cooper and Scott. Montana had Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Roger Craig.

That is why you often see great teams represented in the various Halls of Fame. It is those rare combinations of talent that makes players and teams great and remembered for a long time.

2008-12-02 15:53:09
393.   Indiana Jon
Gretzky was so far above his competition that he could have played on a line with Bob and I and still been a perennial all-star. That's assuming Bob can skate though.
2008-12-02 15:54:11
394.   Xeifrank
377. Are you talking about the Oaks Christian version of Jimmy Claussen? Because if you are, remember that his team of highly recruited football prep stars were beating up some very small schools and on top of that he was held back a year and beating up on much younger and inferior competition the last two years of high school. No doubt he was/is very good, but something to keep in mind nonetheless. Currently, Oaks Christian got moved up and is playing against the big boys in Ventura County. Joe Montana's son has them in the semi finals right now, but they are currently only ranked third in the county. Claussen should transfer.
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 15:56:00
395.   cargill06
394 I'm guilty of a rule 7 violation.
2008-12-02 15:56:10
396.   Tripon
Joe Montana's son should be a Trojan. So shall it is written, so shall it be done.
2008-12-02 15:56:10
397.   Indiana Jon
392 I get your point, but I actually think it works even more in reverse. Kurri, Messier and Coffey gained more from Gretzky than he gained from them.
2008-12-02 15:56:39
398.   Bob Timmermann
393
I can skate, but I'm not good at stopping. I'm guessing I would be offsides a lot.
2008-12-02 15:57:05
399.   Tripon
Citing unnamed sources, Scout.com reports that athletic director Jack Swarbrick plans a public announcement that Weis will be back for his fifth season in South Bend. According to the report, that announcement is expected to come today or tomorrow.

I'm sure Pete Carroll is happy.

http://www.collegefootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/

2008-12-02 15:57:28
400.   LogikReader
Funny thing about all this Gretzky Talk: Tonight the Kings are at Phoenix to play Gretzky's Coyotes.

Which reminds me, great players usually do not make great coaches. Larry Bird is a possible exception.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-12-02 15:58:15
401.   Indiana Jon
398 Just use the boards.
2008-12-02 16:00:05
402.   Bob Timmermann
394
You doubt the greatness of the Fillmore High Flashes?

Nothing is more fun than driving all the way from South Pasadena to Fillmore to watch a team of Division I college players go up against a team of guys who are all about 5'9", 190 lbs on a good day.

When I covered that game, Clausen and Marc Tyler left at halftime to fly out to Notre Dame on a recruiting trip.

I will say that all the times I covered Oaks Christian, the staff from the school were always very polite and helpful.

Unlike the people who worked for Campbell Hall. They're on the obelisk.

So is Arcadia High.

And Notre Dame High would never give me a free program.

2008-12-02 16:00:46
403.   Bob Timmermann
401
That's how I stop!

The alternative method is falling over.

2008-12-02 16:01:08
404.   bhsportsguy
398 And a lot of interfereance or cross-checking calls.
2008-12-02 16:01:59
405.   Indiana Jon
400 Does anyone remember when Bird was coaching the Pacers and Reggie Miller made a game winning shot in an important game? The camera caught Bird not smiling, flinching, or having any reaction at all, while the entire bench and crowd around him all jumped, screamed, and went crazy. It was one of the most unbelievable things I've ever seen. It was just like he expected what happened and wasn't the least bit impressed.
2008-12-02 16:02:43
406.   bhsportsguy
402 Is Jrue Holiday on that oblisk?
2008-12-02 16:03:50
407.   MC Safety
Was The (?) Zen Master considered a great player? Doesn't he have a ring in a box from his playing days?
2008-12-02 16:04:13
408.   trainwreck
396
He is not good enough to play at USC.
2008-12-02 16:04:15
409.   Jim Hitchcock
403 That's a long way down!
2008-12-02 16:08:10
410.   Harold M Johnson
405 I completely remember that, that Bird non-reaction is etched on my mind.
2008-12-02 16:08:43
411.   bhsportsguy
407 Phil Jackosn was better than Kurt Rambis but he was no Horace Grant.
2008-12-02 16:08:52
412.   oshea2002
Is it just me or are the Braves on the verge of giving up a lot for Vasquez?
2008-12-02 16:09:12
413.   D4P
Finally: a Lakers game that starts at a reasonable hour.
2008-12-02 16:09:48
414.   ToyCannon
407
All I remember were his sharp elbows and awkward shots. He was lucky enough to play on the great Knick teams.
2008-12-02 16:10:35
415.   bhsportsguy
405 It is often said that Jerry West could never understand why his players couldn't do what he did on the court.

I believe John Wooden and Lenny Wilkens are the only two men who have been inducted in the Basketball Hall of Fame as both a player and a coach.

2008-12-02 16:10:53
416.   mwhite06
394 No, Oaks Christian has not been moved up. They are still playing against teams like Fillmore and Oak Park. The big boys of Ventura County are St. Bonaventure, Moorpark, Westlake, Oxnard and Thousand Oaks. Oaks Christian played against none of those teams in the regular season, nor can they play any of those teams in the post season.
2008-12-02 16:11:57
417.   Xeifrank
402. Fillmore High is actually very good this year and are also in the semi finals (for their Division) and will be making a trip to play Twentynine Palms this week. I'm sure you will be attending that one. :)
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 16:14:03
418.   bhsportsguy
414 All of you who were watching basketball in 1973, raise your hands. If you thought seeing Gibson hitting that HR must be tiresome to some of the current Dodgers, think about the current roster of Knicks, Pat Ewing and John Starks are old timers to them, who knows what they think of when Clyde Frazier comes to the Garden.
2008-12-02 16:17:03
419.   Xeifrank
416. Yes, you are correct. I appear to have violated Rule 17b.
vr, Xei
2008-12-02 16:17:30
420.   trainwreck
Sean Avery suspended indefinitely for saying other NHL players keep falling in love with his sloppy seconds.
2008-12-02 16:17:39
421.   ToyCannon
414
I bet they bow, that one team of Frazier, Barnett, Bradley, DeBusschere, and Willis Reed was as good as it gets. It beat one of the greatest Laker teams ever.
2008-12-02 16:18:12
422.   Jon Weisman
418 - In my earliest memory of shooting hoops with my brother in front of our old house in Encino, he was Gail Goodrich and I was Happy Hairston.

And yet I can't really say if I was "watching basketball" much.

2008-12-02 16:20:25
423.   trainwreck
Stupid Notre Dame ruining any hope I had of getting some good recruits.
2008-12-02 16:23:04
424.   oshea2002
423 - they have to know he's a lame duck coach. Wood seems like a done deal, I still hear that distance may matter with Shaq in the end.
2008-12-02 16:23:18
425.   Eric Stephen
You can listen to all NBA games via NBA.com, for free. I didn't know this until today.
2008-12-02 16:25:14
426.   Eric Stephen
391
Eric - Hazelton is leaving SC

I think it would have been announced sooner, but when the NCAA tossed the transfer paperwork to Hazelton, he dropped it.

2008-12-02 16:25:43
427.   D4P
425
You can also watch the games for free on the website I've posted before.
2008-12-02 16:25:51
428.   trainwreck
Is there any list of school Hazelton is interested in?
2008-12-02 16:25:55
429.   oshea2002
426 - ouch.

Tim Brown has a column up, said no talks between LA and CC.

2008-12-02 16:26:08
430.   trainwreck
*schools
2008-12-02 16:29:02
431.   oshea2002
428 - said he's looking to go back closer to home (Staten Island). Penn State was his other school originally.
2008-12-02 16:29:53
432.   Humma Kavula
425 And just when I was wondering what it would be like if my favorite sport didn't hate its fans.
2008-12-02 16:31:49
433.   trainwreck
Mark Sanchez was named to the Pac-10 All-Academic team with a 3.14 GPA in Communications.

Garret Green was on second team with 3.43 GPA in Business Administration.

I guess how well you can play football comes into account for All-Academic team.

2008-12-02 16:33:24
434.   El Lay Dave
418 {hand raised} Our 3-on-3 playground team wore the hand-made uniform numbers of West, Goodrich, and Jim McMillian. I also remember us emulating the wild-looking shot of Flynn Robinson's.

421 That team had Earl the Pearl and Jerry Lucas also, didn't it?

2008-12-02 16:35:34
435.   D4P
The Pacers have quite the hodge-podge roster.
2008-12-02 16:36:24
436.   bhsportsguy
421 Those guys were on the 1973 team.
2008-12-02 16:36:50
437.   underdog
429 - Brown also updates on Casey Blake (as paraphrased on MLBTR:) Casey Blake opened negotiations with the Twins at three years and $20MM. That's not a price the Twins are willing to pay, rightfully so. The Indians have cooled on Blake as well.

I wonder if the Dodgers will end up with Blake after all. 1 year of him would not be so bad as a stopgap, that would keep them from signing someone worse, at least.

2008-12-02 16:37:23
438.   bhsportsguy
433 ATV has a 3.14 GPA has a math major. I wonder if he has taken more math by himself than the rest of his teammates combined.
2008-12-02 16:38:58
439.   ToyCannon
436
I was talking about the 1970 team. Jackson was hurt that year. The 73 team had Monroe.
2008-12-02 16:39:08
440.   oshea2002
437 - that'd be the best part about Blake, it would preclude a 3 year deal for some other 3B.
2008-12-02 16:40:27
441.   ToyCannon
437
Looks like baseball is scaling back. Poor Casey he's back to being year to year. I didn't think the Twins would be the team to meet his demands, is anyone cheaper then they are?
2008-12-02 16:45:12
442.   El Lay Dave
439 Both the 69-70 and 72-73 Knicks teams provided sad memories for us Lakers fans; I'm not surprised they're starting to blur together in my aging memory.
2008-12-02 16:46:55
443.   D4P
From Rotoworld:

McDowell expects Blake to receive a three-year deal. We expect the team that signs him will regret it after a few months.

2008-12-02 16:47:26
444.   Jacob Burch
435 It's Granger, Hibbert, Rush, Foster (hurt) and a bunch of randomness as a result of Bird trying to get The Palace Rumble taste out of the organization.

Means I have a horrible NBA team for a few years, but he's seemingly done a good job of making it look like 3-4 years instead of 5-8. Granger doesn't hurt.

2008-12-02 16:47:34
445.   ToyCannon
Probably find out that the four year offer for Furcal was also a figment of his agents imagination.
2008-12-02 16:49:19
446.   ToyCannon
442
They blurred for me also, I had to look it up and was surprised to see Monroe was not part of the 69/70 team. I can't even remember Dick Barnett but I remember the rest of the team like it was yesterday.
2008-12-02 16:50:03
447.   Eric Stephen
444
At the time of The Malice At The Palace©, I thought the Pacers were the best team in the East (at least) and poised for a nice run as a 55-60 win team.
2008-12-02 16:52:08
448.   Jacob Burch
447 At the time, they were probably the best team in the NBA. No one was really dominant that year, and the Pacers came out gunning. It was arguably the best team they've ever floored.
2008-12-02 16:53:16
449.   trainwreck
The Pacers have a bunch of guys that were stars in college. Too bad this is the NBA.
2008-12-02 16:55:05
450.   Jacob Burch
449 Like I said, outside of Hibbert and Rush (who can't really be judged yet), Foster (who is a sturdy stand in) and Granger (he's sort of ok), whomever we have on the team is a result of trying to trade players away instead of trading for players. Who we got seemed like an afterthought as long as we unloaded the old team.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2008-12-02 16:57:32
451.   MC Safety
I always rooted for Rik Smits growing up.
2008-12-02 16:58:06
452.   trainwreck
Daniels is doing fine.
2008-12-02 16:58:28
453.   D4P
I always rooted for Rik Smits growing up

I think it worked. Dude was pretty tall.

2008-12-02 16:59:17
454.   Jacob Burch
452 As is Ford. But I stand by that any good play from players receives is a bonus. Sort of wish we had tried harder for draft picks in the trade, but alas and oh well.
2008-12-02 16:59:39
455.   Eric Stephen
451
Me too, especially when TNT had sponsorship ties with Dutch Boy. It was always awesome to see Smits dominating the "Dutch Boy In The Paint" stats.

I liked Detlef Schrempf as well, at least pre-Portland.

2008-12-02 17:00:12
456.   underdog
I would regret a 3 year deal for Blake, too, but would not regret a 1 year deal as I said. As a stopgap I think he'd be much better than regrettable. But he'll probably still end up somewhere, maybe even back in Bob's Favorite City.
2008-12-02 17:02:56
457.   Jon Weisman
NPUT
2008-12-02 17:03:24
458.   El Lay Dave
446 The Knicks flat-out stole Monroe from the Bullets. If Popovich and Cuban (was that who was whining) thought the Gasol trade was a ridiculous steal, they would have had aneurysms over the Monroe deal.

Dick Barnett - fall back, baby. We used to try to imitate his shot too.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.