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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Dodger Third Baseman Joe Torre
2008-12-03 10:12
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

On this date 40 years ago, the Times wrote, Atlanta turned down a Dodger offer of Willie Davis and Tom Haller for Joe Torre and Felipe Alou. (Thanks to Keith Thursby at the Daily Mirror for the link.)

Atlanta countered with Rico Carty to accompany Torre in place of Alou, but the Dodgers rejected that – which probably turned out to be a mistake. Alou was mostly heading downhill after 1968. On the other hand, Carty, who missed the 1968 season because of tuberculosis, posted back-to-back OPS+ of 164 and 179 in 1969-70, though he averaged only 120 games per year. (Using the Similarity Scores method, Carty's stats are most similar to those of Pedro Guerrero.)

In any case, Carty wasn't even the big prize. Three months later in exchange for Orlando Cepeda, Torre (who had begun migrating from catcher to the corners of the infield) went to St. Louis and strung together six fine seasons, winning the National League Most Valuable Player award in 1971.

Davis and Haller continued to be productive for the Dodgers, so the non-trade wasn't a total loss for the team. And of course, Torre might eventually have blocked the development of Ron Cey or Steve Garvey. But Torre's near-presence might have made the 1969-1973 years a little less lean for Los Angeles.

Comments (170)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-03 10:22:15
1.   Tripon
Pedroia's contract:

Signing bonus - $1.5 million

Base salaries
2009 - $1.5 million
2010 - $3.5 million
2011 - $5.5 million
2012 - $8 million
2013 - $10 million
2014 - $10 million

Club option
2015 - $11 million (or a $500,000 buyout)

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/12/pedroia_breakdo.html

2008-12-03 10:22:56
2.   cargill06
The question is what's a better bargain? Blake DeWitt and Casey Blake are basically equal. Would you be better off spending money at 2B or 3B?
2008-12-03 10:28:50
3.   underdog
How about those Sharks eh? They're rocking.
2008-12-03 10:35:24
4.   OhioBlues12
2 - I think I would rather take a chance on someone like Felipe Lopez at 2B with DeWitt at 3B than sign Blake to a 3 year deal.
2008-12-03 10:40:23
5.   Ken Noe
Blake at three years is too much, I agree. Let's put DeWitt there for now, sign somebody at second for a year, and see how DeJesus and Hu develop. That said, Ned will sign him if he can, and if Ned really believes that Blake will hit, it at least might mean Hu getting a shot at short, based on Ned's recent comments.
2008-12-03 10:45:22
6.   MollyKnight
I have an idea: why don't we just draft someone like Evan Longoria or Alex Rodriguez?
2008-12-03 10:46:02
7.   bigcpa
To elaborate on the last thread:

.279/.343/.467 Lowell career (110 OPS+)
.264/.334/.447 Blake career  (105 OPS+)

Both will be 35 on opening day, average 20 HR and 50 BB per season. I think the comparison still stands. The Red Sox weren't banking on a .324 AVG, .879 OPS going forward.

2008-12-03 10:49:17
8.   ToyCannon
6
I guess if you want to lose 100 games we could go that route.
2008-12-03 10:50:31
9.   Tripon
8 Lose 88 games, gain Clayton Kershaw.
2008-12-03 10:50:43
10.   Kevin Lewis
I just found out Jeff Kent is Mormon. Is this news to anyone else?
2008-12-03 10:50:50
11.   ToyCannon
7
I don't see how the comparison stands. Lowell has a terrible contract, just because the RedSox signed him to a terrible deal doesn't mean we should do the same for Blake. Would you want to sign Cabrerra to the Lugo deal just because the RedSox did so?
2008-12-03 10:51:03
12.   Jon Weisman
We certainly did our best in 1992-93.
2008-12-03 10:51:39
13.   CajunDodger
6
I think if we go into the season with an infield of DeWitt/Hu/Durham or Lopez/Loney, we might just lose enought games to have a pick high enough to do just that...
2008-12-03 10:51:50
14.   underdog
Btw, weird, or interesting, that in the Daily Mirror piece re: Joe Torre that Jon linked above the lead story is on my alma mater, SFSU, reopening after student strikes/protests. That must have been a wacky time to be there.
2008-12-03 10:52:53
15.   KG16
6 has me thinking: what's it take to become a local scout for the Dodgers? I'd be willing to sit through a bunch of high school, JC, and college games taking notes, if the price was right.
2008-12-03 10:53:14
16.   Bob Timmermann
Those protests at SFSU made S.I. Hayakawa famous. He got to the Senate because of his role in those protests.
2008-12-03 10:53:38
17.   Bob Timmermann
15
I would suggest "knowing a guy."
2008-12-03 10:53:56
18.   Jon Weisman
15 - If you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford (to live on) it.
2008-12-03 10:54:47
19.   underdog
16 I do remember hearing tales of such when I was a student there. Even by then some of the faculty still got agitated when his name was brought up.
2008-12-03 10:55:18
20.   cargill06
6 That would require us going 60-102 this year, that'd be no fun.
2008-12-03 10:57:01
21.   CajunDodger
11
Do you really think that 3/20 for Blake would be that terrible? Maybe I am viewing this through the historically bad contracts we have given out in the past 10 years.

My view is that 3/20 is reasonable for a guy with a 105 OPS+ who stays healthy, can fill a couple of holes (primary 3B for a year or two and a backup at up to 4 positions) and prevents us from signing a couple of truly heinous contracts. Even if he is 35, it seems like a good balance of what he should get as opposed what the market would demand.

2008-12-03 10:58:27
22.   cargill06
20 Day late dollar short.

13 I respectfully disagree a DeWitt/Hu/Durham/Loney would score at least the 700 runs we scored last year.

2008-12-03 11:00:02
23.   cargill06
4 I agree, I think DeWitt's highest value is at 3B anyway. Sure his bat is more playable at 2B, but he has shown nothing that would lead me to beleive to be at least an average fielder at 2B. Whereas 3B he has top 5 potential.
2008-12-03 11:00:27
24.   underdog
This does remind me, who is considered the Dodgers next in line top prospect at 3rd now that LaRoche is gone and DeWitt is in the majors (either at 2nd or 3rd)? Bell? Baez? Ron Cey?
2008-12-03 11:00:27
25.   underdog
This does remind me, who is considered the Dodgers next in line top prospect at 3rd now that LaRoche is gone and DeWitt is in the majors (either at 2nd or 3rd)? Bell? Baez? Ron Cey?
2008-12-03 11:01:02
26.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't like Casey Blake.
2008-12-03 11:01:47
27.   Marty
Sleepin Sam!
2008-12-03 11:01:55
28.   Tripon
According to Yahoo's Tim Brown, the Giants "believe they are closing in on signing shortstop Edgar Renteria." Brown also says the Giants have discussed trading Jonathan Sanchez to the Marlins for Jorge Cantu. That'd be a steal for the Marlins, who plucked Cantu off the scrap heap in January for a half-million bucks.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

I'd give up Luis Maza for Sanchez.

2008-12-03 11:04:17
29.   cargill06
28 Wow, Sanchez has huge upside what a dumb trade if they do that.
2008-12-03 11:07:19
30.   kinbote
25 Bell, Baez, & Gallagher.
2008-12-03 11:08:33
31.   Dodgers49
10 That was mentioned here last year.
2008-12-03 11:08:47
32.   kinbote
[DeWitt] has shown nothing that would lead me to beleive to be at least an average fielder at 2B.

I know the eyes can deceive, but I saw him make several good plays at 2b toward the end of last year. I don't seem to recall his missing many easy ones either.

2008-12-03 11:12:54
33.   Kevin Lewis
I feel sad inside thinking that signing Casey Blake could prevent us from making other bad deals.

Why has Ned made me feel this way?

2008-12-03 11:15:56
34.   cargill06
32 It's a small sample size but in 194 innings at 2B DeWitt was a -4. In only 727 innings at 3B he was a +11 good for 7th in the league.
2008-12-03 11:17:07
35.   Tripon
34 My argument would be that Blake DeWitt was still learning 2nd base, and probably felt more comfortable playing 3rd. After more practice, I'm sure he could be a better fielder at 2nd.
2008-12-03 11:17:40
36.   Kevin Lewis
17

I would love to be the ball boy along the foul line at Dodger stadium, but I don't "know" anyone that could get me the job

2008-12-03 11:20:28
37.   Louis in SF
14

Hey never knew you were also an SFSU alum, I thought you were a Gaucho. When I was in Broadcasting at SF State, I did some research on the strike and SI Hayakawa by pulling out the wires of the PA during the protests almost made him the darling of Ronald Reagan and helped make him a US Senator, SI also had an amazing jazz collection and a great linguist, but fell asleep in the Senate quite a bit.

2008-12-03 11:20:40
38.   cargill06
35 You could be right, but they moved him from 3B to 2B back to 3B in the minors. Maybe because he was a bad fielder at 2B?
2008-12-03 11:21:05
39.   CajunDodger
33
I tend to look at things this way:

Either Casey Blake plays third for us next year

Or

We sign one of Joe Crede, Felipe Lopez, Rich Aurilia, or Ray Durham.

Ned simply will not go into the season with Abreu in any of his plans. It's bad enough from an offensive standpoint that we may have to endure a .220/.285/.330 line from Hu (or, for that matter, Orlando Cabrera).

2008-12-03 11:22:16
40.   Kevin Lewis
Does anyone buy tootsie rolls apart from Pinatas and Halloween combo bags?
2008-12-03 11:22:57
41.   Tripon
Perrotto says the Tigers and Orioles are showing interest in Jack Wilson, while the Dodgers have backed off.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-03 11:27:05
42.   cargill06
39 I don't get what is so awful about Ray Durham? He could easily be an '06 Jeff Kent.
2008-12-03 11:28:40
43.   ToyCannon
21
Yes - at this point in his career just like Aurilia and Crede, he should be getting one year at a time unless he wants to take a huge discount for security reasons. He's an average 3rd baseman on the wrong side of 30. One year would be great if he accepts arbitration, if not then I look at Crede for one year. If not then I look at Aurilia for one year. All of them give you options if DeWitt completely fails against LHP. Crede is a defensive wizard compared to Blake and Aurilia, so he can make up the lack of OBP skills with defense.

Then again I'd be happy with a (Durham, Lopez, Vazquez)/Loretta platoon at 2nd with DeWitt at 3rd more then I would be with signing any of the aforementioned 3rd baseman.

If the Marlins can trade Cantu for anything I'll be impressed. He is Feliz except he comes with the worse hands and slowest feet in baseball. I'd love to get our hands on Jonathan Sanchez.

2008-12-03 11:28:48
44.   mwhite06
Quick question, since OPS+ is setup that a league average hitter is exactly 100, does the formula include pitchers hitting in the NL?
2008-12-03 11:30:37
45.   Jon Weisman
Cash-strapped teacher sells ads on tests

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/03/teacher.ads.on.tests/index.html

2008-12-03 11:35:53
46.   ToyCannon
39
Why is Casey Blake a better option then any of the players you mentioned?
Ray Durham has been the best of all of them in his career and can still tee off on RHP.
Felipe Lopez has had the most recent success after his stint in St. Louis and can play all over the infield
Aurilia matches up statistically with Blake, giving away some skills against RHP, but hits LHP at a better clip
2008-12-03 11:37:42
47.   ToyCannon
42
Or a 2006 Ray Durham model which was better then the 2006 Kent model.
2008-12-03 11:41:41
48.   cargill06
44 I believe so, I don't know exactely how the lgOBP and lgSLG is calculated. The OPS+ is basically your OBP and SLG compared to the league average with your park adjustment. So my guess would be that pitchers PA's are in the equation.
2008-12-03 11:51:42
49.   CajunDodger
46
I think he sets himself apart in terms of flexibility in defensive positioning and his ability to stay healthy (Joe Crede has neither).

Strictly in terms of the big picture, signing Blake early allows Colletti to take focus off of the infield (where he is on the record as saying is his top priority) and concentrate on getting either Manny or a front line starter.

I can see where you might think a three year deal might be less than ideal, but on a two year offer, Blake/Dewitt is, in my estimation, better than DeWitt/Loretta/Durham (which would probably cost the same on a one-year basis anyway).

All of this becomes moot in my opinion if we can sign Orlando Hudson to a reasonable deal.

2008-12-03 11:51:50
50.   Eric Enders
44 Nope, pitchers not included. Here is Sean's formula as desribed on BB-Ref.

"1. Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed (basic form) RC = (H + BB + HBP)*(TB)/(AB + BB + HBP + SF)
2. Adjust this by the park factor RC' = RC*BPF
3. Assume that if hits increase in a park, that BB, HBP, TB increase at the some proportion.
4. Assume that Outs = AB - H (more or less) do not change at all as outs are finite.
5. Compute the number of H, BB, HBP, TB needed to produce RC', involves the quadratic formula. The idea for this came from the Willie Davis player comment in the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract. I think some others, including Clay Davenport have done some similar things.
6. Using these adjusted values compute what the league average player would have hit lgOBP*, lgSLG* in a park.
7. Take OPS+ = 100 *
(OBP/lgOBP* + SLG/lgSLG* - 1)"

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-03 11:54:55
51.   CajunDodger
46
I typically avoid debate, but this has got me engaged more than most discussions I see. (I spend time on LSU/SEC message boards on occasion. John's rules should be universal)
2008-12-03 11:56:35
52.   ToyCannon
0
Is Rico Carty = Milton Bradley? As I recall Rico was also a head case but it wasn't anger but effort that was the problem. They both missed alot of games but when they played they produced at a high level.

Anybody remember Vinny blaming Rico Carty for bringing the one handed catch into baseball?

2008-12-03 11:56:36
53.   CajunDodger
51
Jon's

Sorry about that...

2008-12-03 11:57:15
54.   OhioBlues12
49 - I would be severely disappointed if we signed Cabrera to any deal. Spending millions and losing draft picks on a player that is not likely to be much, if any, better than Hu would be a blow to our other needs this offseason.
2008-12-03 11:57:41
55.   mwhite06
51 I definately agree that Jon's rules should be universal. I frequent NY Giants blogs, and with the Plax situation the message boards turned into one rule 5 violation after another.
2008-12-03 11:57:56
56.   Tripon
1:53pm: ESPN's Jerry Crasnick talked to Renteria's agent Barry Meister, who said they're "much, much closer" to a deal with the Giants but "nothing is done." Crasnick's source says it could be in the two-year, $18MM range.

Sounds like the previous Rentiena rumor was true, and somebody just jumped the gun on it.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-03 11:58:48
57.   mwhite06
50 Thanks for the info!
2008-12-03 11:59:42
58.   ToyCannon
49
Thanks for the reply. He does have health going for him, plus I like him, and I'd be more then happy to have him accept arbitration.
2008-12-03 12:00:24
59.   Eric Stephen
Also from that 1968 sports page, I thought this was funny:

The executive asked not to be quoted by name. I asked him why not. "Are you serious?" he said. "No baseball man at the winter meetings is ever quoted by name. It's always 'a well informed source' or 'a high-ranking club executive' or 'a man in a position to know.' How long have you been coming to these meetings anyway?"

2008-12-03 12:04:57
60.   Eric Enders
Renteria's agent is crying out for a Chris Berman nickname.
2008-12-03 12:06:59
61.   cargill06
54 I'm with you there.
2008-12-03 12:07:32
62.   fordprefect
10
Thought everyone already knew he was a moro.....oh, never mind....
2008-12-03 12:09:47
63.   bablue
46,

Casey wants a 3/20 deal but it sounds like no one will give it to him. Do you really think 2/15 is too much? League average SP's can get 10M a year in FA, and 3-4 years too. I think a league average 3B (especially with Blake's positional flexibility and health) should get at least 7M. I think he's 2 WAR, which means he should probably get around 10M for 1 year, if I understand correctly.

Also, Blake and Aurilia's last 2 years-
Blake 2007: .270/.339/.437
Blake 2008: .274/.345/.463
Aurilia 2007: .252/.304/.368
Aurilia 2008: .283/.332/413

Blake's considerably better, 2 years younger, and Aurilia is often hurt. I think thats worth a few million more.

Durham does put up similiar numbers,but he's hurt a lot, plays awful defense, and is also 2 years older than Blake.

I'm not saying signing Blake would be a great move, but I don't see why it would be so bad. Its low risk, and it fills a huge hole for the Dodgers. Unless we can get Crede on a cheap 1 year deal, or Orlando Hudson for a below market rate, I don't see a better alternative if we want to compete in '09.

2008-12-03 12:13:47
64.   Jon Weisman
Great moments in compensation pick drafting:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8337

--The Rockies signed left-hander Mike Hampton in the 2000-01 offseason, and the Mets drafted third baseman David Wright with a compensation pick.

--The Padres signed shortstop Kurt Stillwell in the 1991-92 offseason, and the Royals drafted outfielder Johnny Damon with a compensation pick.

--The Reds signed left-hander John Smiley in the 1992-93 offseason, and the Twins drafted outfielder Torii Hunter with a compensation pick.

--The Giants signed left-hander Bud Black in the 1990-91 offseason, and the Blue Jays drafted outfielder Shawn Green with a compensation pick.

This John Perrotto article also has his Hall of Fame ballot. Eight yeses, but I enjoyed reading it.

2008-12-03 12:13:55
65.   bablue
From Rosenthal's new article (sorry if anyone has already posted this):
"The Braves, Mariners and Nationals are among the teams interested in Dunn, major-league sources say, and his list of suitors could grow quickly.
Dunn, 29, also represents a fallback position for the Dodgers if they lose Manny Ramirez and the Angels if they lose Mark Teixeira."

Interesting to see us linked to Dunn. I'd prefer not to sign him to a long deal though.

2008-12-03 12:16:33
66.   CajunDodger
65
Grain of Salt Warning...

Rosenthal did not quote anyone or cite a source. It's just in his delusional mind.

2008-12-03 12:18:26
67.   Eric Enders
65 We got Blake DeWitt for Paul Quantrill and Ivan DeJesus for Adrian Beltre.
2008-12-03 12:21:26
68.   bablue
66,
Ah yes. Forgot to mention that little aspect. Still, I've never seen us linked to Dunn by any "reputable" source before, FWIW. Not really Ned's type of player. Hits the ball out of the infield too much, I think.
2008-12-03 12:23:54
69.   Tripon
68 Dunn plays defense the way Ned likes.
2008-12-03 12:28:41
70.   cargill06
63 Actually the last 4 years Casey Blake's OPS+ is 105 when the league average OPS+ is 106 and he is bad defensively. He is a below average 3B. Ray Durham the last for years has a 102 OPS+ (including his extremely unlucky '07 season, 65 OPS+, .233 BABIP) where the league average 2B posts a 100 OPS+, and he too is also bad defensively. I think overall Durham is the better offensive player. The quesition is where does Blake DeWitt have the most value, to me it's a very easy answer at 3B. I'd rather go sign a 2B route, Hudson/Durham.
2008-12-03 12:29:13
71.   Eric Stephen
I had no idea Wayman Tisdale lost his right leg due to cancer. ESPN.com has a pretty nice story about him today.

http://tinyurl.com/5wj8qd

2008-12-03 12:32:08
72.   bablue
69,
Nah, its only okay to play bad defense if you play it with grit.
2008-12-03 12:32:13
73.   Tripon
The Tigers seem disinclined to pay a catcher big money. The Dodgers, who already have Russell Martin, are trying to fill too many holes.

Why the heck is Robothal trying to mention the Dodgers in any talk with Veritek. Come on Rosenthal, follow your own logic.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8885188/Market-shaping-up-for-Adam-Dunn?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

2008-12-03 12:35:28
74.   bablue
70,
Touche. I still think Blake would be better than many of the other Ned Alternatives™
2008-12-03 12:37:27
75.   underdog
37 Louis -- yep, a "Gator" alum. I root for UCSB since they're my hometown team, my dad taught there for ages, and since SFSU doesn't have much in the way of sports to get excited about. Gauchos and Bruins are thus my go-to teams since childhood.
2008-12-03 12:42:26
76.   Louis in SF
I can not prove it but I have watched Ray Durham for the past few years living in SF and his defense and range just get worse along with his constant injuries. I say try and avoid him at all costs.
2008-12-03 12:42:39
77.   Tripon
"The other thing is that teams are moving away from the base offensive statistics," says another GM. "They are pouring through defensive studies and seeing that below-average defenders like Ramirez and Burrell in the field depreciate their offensive numbers because of what they give up."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter

2008-12-03 12:43:40
78.   popup
I for one am glad the Dodgers did not trade Willie Davis in 1969. If they had, there is an excellent SI.com article that would not have gotten written, or at least written in the way it was. I don't think it is too likely Joe would have dupicated Willie's hitting streak in 1969.

Stan from Tacoma

2008-12-03 12:48:17
79.   trainwreck
Braves offer Burnett 5-year deal. Talk about trying to load up on pitching.
2008-12-03 12:52:06
80.   Jon Weisman
75 - San Francisco State rejected me for grad school in creative writing in 1992.

78 - Aw, shucks.

2008-12-03 12:52:16
81.   trainwreck
79
Got that from ESPN.
2008-12-03 13:00:06
82.   underdog
80 Their loss! But, small consolation, they rejected me for that grad program as well (I went to CCAC instead) and it's considered one of the toughest CW programs in the country to get into. I feel fortunate I got to have a few of those teachers as an undergrad at least.

If the Braves sign AJ Burnett to that long of a deal, after giving up prospects for the overrated Javier Vazquez, and if the Giants trade Sanchez for very little and sign Renteria (a lot of "ifs") this will be a good week.

2008-12-03 13:02:08
83.   underdog
The Giants sign Bobby Howry today, too. They've either improved their bullpen with the addition of he and Affeldt, or just as likely, spent a lot of money on middling middle relief.
2008-12-03 13:06:27
84.   Tripon
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8335

Joe Sheehan's Dodgers GM article seems to have been freed from behind the wall.

2008-12-03 13:11:51
85.   mintxcore
82 cough you mean CCA?
2008-12-03 13:12:25
86.   mintxcore
85 woah, i didnt realize the asterisks would bold "cough"
2008-12-03 13:15:29
87.   JoeyP
84- I pretty much disagree with everything Sheehan proposes. I do like the idea of pursuing Greg Zaun as backup catcher.

But offering Lowe 4/62 at his age is just asking for trouble. Dodgers were fortunate to get 4 very good years out of him. Walk away from the table.

Ray Durham - no.
Not sure why Sheehan is so down on Ivan DeJesus either.

2008-12-03 13:21:55
88.   CajunDodger
87
In looking at what he proposes, doesn't that put our payroll in the $90 million range?

I pretty much think that his plan would get Ned fired and the McCourts run out of LA...wait. It's BRILLIANT!!

2008-12-03 13:22:54
89.   JoeyP
82- I dont think Javy Vasquez is overrated. He looks like a pretty good #2 borderline #1 starter. His K/9 & bb/9 have been very good the last 4yrs of his career. Plus, he's durable. He's had 9 straight seasons of at least 198 IP.

His problem is giving up home runs.
He'd be an excellent fit for a team whose ballpark suppresses homers, not sure how Atlanta's rank.

2008-12-03 13:23:26
90.   underdog
86 Hah hah. I know, they removed the last C (for Crafts) when I was going there, and there was a big stink about it. I still do that from time to time in case the school president is reading, just to annoy him.

--

Yeah, I agree, I usually like Sheehan but thought that article was mostly way off base. Plus, Lowe has all but said he's not coming back anyway so why even bother wasting all that space on the idea. And while I kinda find Rickie Weeks intriguing that trade is unlikely. Anyway, provocative piece but kind of goofy ultimately.

2008-12-03 13:23:36
91.   Eric Enders
I love the Rickie Weeks idea although I don't think we could get him for what Sheehan proposes.
2008-12-03 13:24:02
92.   trainwreck
88
They were not run out of town during the DePo years when the payroll was not as high.
2008-12-03 13:24:43
93.   underdog
89 I do agree coming back to the NL will help him. Maybe he's not overrated per se but I don't find him all that appealing either. Maybe a #2 pitcher, not a #1 at all imho though. But yeah coming back to the NL, he should fare better.
2008-12-03 13:26:25
94.   JoeyP
Vasquez would be a perfect fit for the Padres ballpark & help them immensley climb back to respectability. Doubt they have the pieces that the White Sox want though. But, the main thing about Vasquez is that he's in the last year of his deal - so they could still get draft picks if he leaves.
2008-12-03 13:29:21
95.   Tripon
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1114

Joe Sheehan breaks down baseball arbitration offers.

http://eastwindupchronicle.com/another-vote-against-signing-japanese-baseball-players/

Eastwindup Chronicle calls foul on Richard Griffin's claim that there's only a handful of MLB-type talented Japanese players.

2008-12-03 13:31:32
96.   CajunDodger
92
The problem now is that payroll can't go down by anything other than a marginal amount once it has been raised.

Disaster? Debacle? Nay, PR nightmare of Old Testament proportions.

Plaschke, Simers, and, truthfully, myself would rip them to shreds.

2008-12-03 13:35:00
97.   Eric Enders
The latest crime report from the Texas campus police:

------------------------------------
TRINITY PARKING GARAGE, 1815 Trinity

Criminal Trespass Warning: A non-UT subject was observed approaching individuals, in an attempt to sell them tickets to a sporting event. During the investigation, the subject was located near the exit of the garage. The subject was issued a written Criminal Trespass Warning and was escorted from the area. Occurred on: 11-30-08, at 1:32 PM.

UNIVERSITY TEACHING CENTER, 105 West 21st Street

Criminal Trespass Warning (2 Counts): Two non-UT subjects were discovered camping on the 3rd floor. During the investigation, both subjects informed the officer that they were in town for the Texas A&M football game and needed a place to sleep. Both subjects were issued written Criminal Trespass Warnings and were escorted from the area. Occurred on: 11-28-08, at 3:51 AM.

DKR- TEXAS MEMORIAL STADIUM, 2200 Robert Dedman

Robbery: Several UT staff members, faculty, students, and Texas Exes discovered a fraction of a percentage point had been taken and was transported across state lines. The percentage point was discovered north of the Red River at the campus of another Big 12 South University.

2008-12-03 13:36:11
98.   SG6
67 - Speaking of Beltre, is that a viable option for 3B? Who would Seattle want / Who would Dodgers give up?
2008-12-03 13:36:17
99.   trainwreck
96
I think you should start sharpening your pitchforks now.
2008-12-03 13:37:23
100.   CajunDodger
97
That's hilarious...
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-03 13:37:27
101.   Eric Enders
95 I think Sheehan's right regarding the arbitration offers. Several teams made big mistakes by not offering arb to certain players. It's almost an industry-wide epidemic of teams not acting in their own best interests.
2008-12-03 13:37:34
102.   Tripon
96 The Dodgers already had their chance to significantly drop their payroll in 2007/2008 when they were fielding a lineup full of 1st and 2nd year players. But most of these players are hitting expensive arbitration years, so even if the Dodgers don't go FA shopping, the automatic raises due to Martin, Ethier, Kemp, etc. should keep payroll fairly high.

On that note, with the Pedroia signing only offering around $1.5 million for his 3rd year, than Russel Martin or Ethier shouldn't command much more than that right? After all they didn't have a MVP™ award under their resume.

2008-12-03 13:39:36
103.   CajunDodger
99
Mine is sharpened already. I have been using it on the Co-Defensive Coordinators at LSU who will soon lose their job to Ed Orgeron (hopefully).
2008-12-03 13:40:24
104.   JoeyP
95-
Casey Blake, Paul Byrd, Darren Oliver, Dennys Reyes and Brian Shouse are all marginal talents that could accept the offer, but only Blake and maybe Byrd would make enough in arbitration to outweigh their 2009 contributions or make eating their contract painful

Did he leave out Jason Varitek on purpose?
Whatever Varitek would make in arbitration would certainly outweigh his 2009 contribution.

2008-12-03 13:41:16
105.   CanuckDodger
Rickie Weeks is not good, period. And Sheehan even thinking giving up DeJesus for Weeks seriously discredits him. Weeks and DeJesus both played in the AA Southern League as 21-year-olds.

Weeks: .259/.366/.407

DeJesus: .324/.419/.423

Now add in the fact that Weeks is a lousy 2B, while DeJesus gets good reviews as a defensive SS, but because of a marginal arm might have to move to 2B. If he made the move to 2B, DeJesus would be an outstanding defensive 2B.

Weeks' inability to even hit .260 in AA should have bee a warning sign that he would have trouble hitting for average in the majors, and look what has happened: two years in a row as a .230 hitter. As for power, DeJesus hit only one less homer than Weeks in AA, 7 compared to Weeks' 8. Where Weeks beat DeJesus in power was in doubles and triples.

2008-12-03 13:41:40
106.   Tripon
103 Isn't Ed Oregeron joining Lane Kiffin at Tenn.?
2008-12-03 13:45:38
107.   Eric Enders
104 Would it?

What are the Sox' other options at starting catcher? Varitek stinks, sure, but that's relative. He's still likely to comfortably outperform any of the other realistic catching options they have. (Unless they want to trade a bundle of prospects to Texas for Laird, Salty, Teagarden or Ramirez.)

There's also the non-negligible value he contributes as team captain/Sox legend/PR god. We always think of that stuff as silly, and mostly it is, but it does have a certain value that teams can and should be able to put a dollar amount on.

2008-12-03 13:46:53
108.   CajunDodger
106
LA LA LA (hands over ears) I CAN'T HEAR YOU OHHHH SAY CAN YOU SEEEEEEEEE...
2008-12-03 13:49:04
109.   Eric Enders
105 The one year you're harping on was Weeks' first full pro season. I'd think that would make a difference. Unless, of course, one were trying to construct a one-sided argument against him.

Weeks' overall minor league record puts DeJesus's to shame. And you know it.

2008-12-03 13:49:11
110.   MollyKnight
As one of the few females in these parts I would like to go on record and say that I am not offended by the comments Sean Avery made yesterday, as many, many women I know have used the term to refer to men they've dated.

This is the most publicity the NHL has gotten since, well, ever-- so I think the commissioner should probably give him a medal. Or a firm pat on the rear.

2008-12-03 13:49:33
111.   trainwreck
103
I thought Ed O was already Tennessee bound?
2008-12-03 13:50:53
112.   Kevin Lewis
Wait a second, is Sanchez the young player on the Giants that was tearing up the ball last year?
2008-12-03 13:51:37
113.   trainwreck
Sloppy seconds is a food reference. It is not even as offensive as it sounds.
2008-12-03 13:52:02
114.   trainwreck
112
Sanchez is the young left-hander with nasty stuff.
2008-12-03 13:54:24
115.   Eric Enders
110 I was wondering what Brad Penny thought of the whole situation but then I realized I was getting my starlets confused.

Anyway, this seems like the most ridiculous pro sports suspension in recent memory.

2008-12-03 13:56:59
116.   CajunDodger
111
Widely assumed, but not official. He is going to have a heck of a staff with his dad and Ed O coming over...But that is not going to happen because Les Miles is going to do the right thing and hire him...
2008-12-03 13:58:17
117.   Sam DC
Near-Frivolous CC Rumor -- Proceed At Your Own Risk

"If the Angels are inclined to wait it out with Teixeira, rather than commit all those dollars to a pitcher, there doesn't seem to be another option out there for Sabathia (whose agent has tried, unsuccessfully it seems, to involve the Dodgers and Giants)."

http://tinyurl.com/6lnv8u

Sheinin is a smart, responsible reporter, so I'd imagine he has some basis for that aside. But it is just an aside.

2008-12-03 13:58:45
118.   oshea2002
I hear mixed thinks on Coach O.

I'll say this, Orgeron's love affair with the SC fans will be seriously tested if he goes to LSU. I'll still love the guy, but others won't for sure.

2008-12-03 14:00:13
119.   trainwreck
117
Keith Law said that the Angels really do not have much interest in CC, so that adds more to the case.
2008-12-03 14:10:04
120.   ToyCannon
If you can't be interested in CC who can you be interested in?

How pathetic that the best free agent pitcher based on age and production since Greg Maddux hit the market is available, wants to play for us, but we aren't interested because the Casey Blake's of the world are our future.

2008-12-03 14:14:22
121.   trainwreck
120
But we traded our number 1 prospect for him so he has to be good, right? : (
2008-12-03 14:20:20
122.   CanuckDodger
109 -- Nonsense, Eric. It is irrelevent that Weeks' Double A year was his first full pro season. He was a college draftee, and a highly-pedigreed and polished one at that. DeJesus never played college ball, so all that matters is that they were at the SAME pro level at the SAME age. And it is LUDICROUS for you to say that Weeks' minor league career puts DeJesus' "to shame," considering that outside of that one year in Double A when DeJesus's performance put Weeks' "to shame" Weeks' minor league career consisted of only 271 AB's, all but 4 of which were either in the hitting paradises of the Pioneer League or the PCL.
2008-12-03 14:23:51
123.   Bob Timmermann
I think the bigger problem that the Stars and the NHL had with Avery is that he pretty much staged a press conference to openly insult players on other teams and their girlfriends.

And this is a guy who has already publicly ridiculed Francophone players and was accused of:
1) calling a player "a monkey" (denied by Avery)
2) accusing another player of faking having cancer (denied by Avery)

The Kings and Rangers players didn't want him around anymore and it seems that the Stars, who are in last place, don't want him around anymore.

2008-12-03 14:25:47
124.   trainwreck
Sean Avery should join Charlie Weis's staff.
2008-12-03 14:30:27
125.   Eric Enders
122 A college kid holding his own in AA in his first season is usually news. The good variety.

And again, you already know this, but Nashville is in the less-hitter-friendly "American" division of the PCL, and even within that division it's a relative pitcher's paradise, with a park factor of around 95 every year.

Minor league stats aside, I assume you have some reason for dismissing Weeks' major league OBPs of .363 at age 23 and .374 at age 24?

Anyway, clearly we disagree strongly. Perhaps we should leave it at that. It's probably a waste of time treating this idea as if it were actually a likelihood instead of the figment of Joe Sheehan's imagination.

2008-12-03 14:32:42
126.   Kevin Lewis
120
This makes me angry
2008-12-03 14:33:49
127.   Jon Weisman
The end of 109 is a rule violation. I think a different tone could have put the ensuing discussion in a nicer direction.
2008-12-03 14:34:46
128.   Eric Enders
McCourt's newfound aversion to long-term contracts makes me wonder whether he is nearing the "dump" stage of his pump-and-dump ownership of the Dodgers. We can only hope.
2008-12-03 14:38:36
129.   Eric Enders
127 Yeah, my bad.
2008-12-03 14:46:17
130.   underdog
Signing Blake (which may not happen) but Sabathia would be disappointing for all of us, but is it really fair to link those two things? I think the Dodgers should go for CC too, but if they're financially strapped a CC contract will be enormous, even if he does deserve it. Aren't we talking at the very least 100 million dollar contract or more? Maybe 20-25 million per year... Again, I'd rather them not sign Blake and sign CC too but I feel like they're sort of in a different stratosphere, no?
2008-12-03 14:48:01
131.   underdog
But then I just ate up 10 minutes of my work day stressing over the Sporcle Hitchcock movie quiz so what do I know? My brain is beyond suspicion and full of vertigo.
2008-12-03 14:49:19
132.   trainwreck
Poor Tommy Tuberville.
2008-12-03 14:49:27
133.   Hollywood Joe
123

Amen

I am not a "everybody hug one another PC guy" which you can probably tell from other post in the past, but I do think that human decency has become something just a bit under valued.

No part of Sean Avery is a gentleman. That we as a culture generally don't hold each other to a social contract for acceptable behavior anymore is sad.

He should be socially ostracized and censured for making those comments, the people closest to him should pull him aside and let him know that he has shamed them and himself.

I am glad he was punished by the league - being a public figure should not give you public license to defame, insult, and harrass others with impunity.

Shame is not a bad thing. It tells you when you are out of line. Would be a better world if more people felt it.

2008-12-03 14:54:59
134.   CanuckDodger
225 -- Holding his own in Double A fresh out of college portended Weeks being a major league player, but that wasn't the issue. The issue was Weeks' merits relative to those of DeJesus.

Weeks played in the eastern half of the PCL, point taken, but I am not aware of how many parks in that half of the league exactly qualify as pitcher-friendly, or in what parks Weeks did his damage. The problem with even citing what Weeks did in Triple A in our conversation is that DeJesus hasn't played in Triple A yet, so there is no way to compare what Weeks did there to DeJesus' record.

As for Week's OBA's in the majors, yes, they have been good, but I said before that I am in the minority here in caring about batting average, and I think a young player is more likely to improve power and patience over time than batting average if that is a weakness in his game. Can a player do other things that will keep him in the majors if he hits in the .230's? As Adam Dunn proves, yes, but you can count on me to value a player like that a lot less than others will.

And you didn't even address the matter of defense that I raised. Weeks is poor in that department. DeJesus is not.

2008-12-03 14:57:38
135.   underdog
What do you think of Sheehan's idea of moving Weeks to centerfield? Not this is necessarily relevant to the Dodgers mind you...
2008-12-03 15:03:20
136.   cargill06
Too bad Xavier Paul wasn't a good defensive CF, that could be exciting.
2008-12-03 15:05:41
137.   ToyCannon
135
I like the idea but it has been suggested for years that Weeks move to CF just like Hanley Ramirez. He not only would have to arm wrestle Keith Law over the idea but plenty of other people. If we were lucky enough to get Weeks, I'd play him at 2nd in 2009 and move him to CF in 2010 after Jones is gone.

I would not trade DeJesus for him but if he was available I'd love the Dodgers to find out what it would take. I'm weak for Weeks and glad to see that Eric likes him even more. Hate to see Canuck on the other side of the fence but what are you going to do. I do think he cherry picked Weeks AA season to make his point but then I've cherry picked his 2007 Aug/Sept to make mine so it is all good.

2008-12-03 15:06:06
138.   CanuckDodger
135 -- Everybody seems to think a middle infielder who can't handle the middle infield can be moved to CF. Some can be moved there, some can't. And I think the time to try it with Weeks was long before now, when he is entering his age 26 season. Certainly no team should trade for him now on the assumption that they can automatically pencil him in CF.
2008-12-03 15:06:18
139.   Eric Enders
134 I acknowledge that Weeks is lousy at second. But, (a) he's been said to have worked hard to improve, so he may not always be bad, and (b) Sheehan was advocating acquiring him to play CF anyway.
2008-12-03 15:07:59
140.   ToyCannon
130
I wasn't tying CC to Blake, just using Blake as an example of the type of player we are talking about today (Durham, Aurilia, Blake, Cabrera, Loretta) instead of CC.
2008-12-03 15:09:39
141.   Tripon
According to Ken Rosenthal, the Braves are close to a two-year deal with free agent catcher Dave Ross. He'd serve as Brian McCann's backup. Ross, 32 in March, posted a strong .381 OBP with the Reds this year. The Astros were also known to be interested, but I imagine Ross jumped when the Braves offered two years.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-03 15:09:52
142.   ToyCannon
138
They usually try it with middle infielders with speed who have shown an aptitude for going back on flyballs. Davy Lopes, Juan Samuel, Robin Yount, and many others have made the transition and all of them were older then Weeks.
2008-12-03 15:10:24
143.   Tripon
4:49pm: SI.com's Jon Heyman says the Giants asked the Brewers about J.J. Hardy, but Milwaukee doesn't want to move him. So Brian Sabean moved on to Cantu.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

2008-12-03 15:11:26
144.   cargill06
137 Who would rate as a better defensive CF between Paul and Weeks? By 2010 don't you think Paul could give us a .740 OPS or so, just like Weeks?
2008-12-03 15:13:44
145.   regfairfield
144 Barely. He hasn't shown enough patience or power yet and he still strikes out too much for a guy who doesn't walk or hit home runs. If he's ever anything more than a bit part for the Dodgers we did something wrong.
2008-12-03 15:14:00
146.   ToyCannon
144
Yes, but I expect Weeks to be able to put up an 800-825 OPS or I wouldn't be bothering to talk him up. He has the ability to slug 450 and we know he can give up a .375 OBP.
2008-12-03 15:14:24
147.   Eric Enders
I'm trying to think of middle-infield-to-CF conversions that didn't work. It's hard to think of many. I think Biggio was pretty lousy in CF, but that was utterly predictable and shouldn't have been tried anyway. Yount, Doby, Aaron, Upton were all great successes (although Hank only ended up playing 300-odd games in center). I'm sure there are many others but they're not coming to mind right now.

I am now officially obligated to beat the drum for my favorite pet project, which is signing Furcal and moving him to CF when DeJesus is ready.

2008-12-03 15:18:53
148.   silverwidow
I don't get why people want Kemp taken out of CF. His speed profiles there much more than in right.
2008-12-03 15:19:08
149.   ToyCannon
147
Don't forget Jimmy Wynn, he was a SS and was converted to CF.
2008-12-03 15:20:02
150.   Eric Stephen
Maybe this is more for Cardboard Gods, but I stumbled across this blog post (from a Dodger fan, so it's at least tangentially related) about the 1975 Topps baseball card for former A's pinch runner Herb Washington.

http://tinyurl.com/6zd9x9

The stats on the back are very limited, but of course completely representative of Washington's role. Only games, runs, steals, and caught stealings are shown, and the title only says "Major League Base Running Record." That's quite a unique card.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-03 15:21:19
151.   CanuckDodger
144 -- That question is hard to answer on either end, because Weeks to my knowledge has never played CF at all, while Paul has plenty of experience playing CF, but there is division on whether he can play CF well enough to stay there. For Paul, on the con side, his defensive stats in CF have been poor and scouts say he profiles best as an RF, but on the pro side our own DeJohn Watson is adamant that Paul is a CF and he says he disputes people who say different.

I don't think Paul will ever be an everyday player. More likely he is a 4th OF in the majors who can play all three fields, but if he had the chance, I wonder if he could be a playable CF who handles the LH side of a platoon. He hits righties well, but really struggles against lefties.

2008-12-03 15:22:16
152.   Eric Enders
148 I think people are assuming he's going to lose his blinding speed as quickly as other players of that body type (Winfield, Parker, Dawson) did.
2008-12-03 15:22:59
153.   cargill06
145 He hasn't shown enough patience or power

His IsoP that last two years is .142, the average ML CF last year was .152. The walk rate for the average CF is 9.1%, his walk rate the last 2 years is 10.2%. It seems to me he has the potential to be an above average offensive CF. However, I don't know how his defense rates. I think I remember hearing it's pretty shameful.

2008-12-03 15:23:15
154.   trainwreck
Hahaha Chargers can't sell out their games already.
2008-12-03 15:24:50
155.   Eric Stephen
154
To be fair, it's a Thursday...against the Raiders. And apparently NFL Network (or the local Fox affiliate, I'm not sure) bought the remaining tickets so the game will be televised locally, even for those without NFL Network.
2008-12-03 15:26:36
156.   regfairfield
153 Keep in mind that was in the PCL. Paul has to stick in center or he's going to be one of those guys that's decent, but doesn't do anything well enough to actually stick on a team.
2008-12-03 15:26:44
157.   trainwreck
155
Raiders are their biggest rival even if we stink.
2008-12-03 15:26:52
158.   Eric Enders
For some reason whenever X Paul's major league future is brought up, the name Jay Payton comes to mind. Good enough hitter to be a 4th OF on a good team or a starting outfielder on a bad one. Good enough to be a good defensive corner OF and a passable but mediocre CF. Fast but not fast.
2008-12-03 15:27:23
159.   cargill06
156 Isn't Jax, a tough hitters park?
2008-12-03 15:28:36
160.   regfairfield
159 It is, but not as much as it's made out to be sometimes. I think the three year park factor is 96, but I could be wrong there.
2008-12-03 15:30:50
161.   cargill06
160 What was it in Vegas?
2008-12-03 15:32:40
162.   ToyCannon
158
Sounds like a great comp, except he hits RHP while Payton hit LHP which makes Paul a little more valuable. He might be a 4th outfielder or he could end up being on the good side of a platoon with a lefty masher like Matt Diaz.
2008-12-03 15:33:58
163.   regfairfield
2005-2007 factors:

Jacksonville: .95
Vegas: 1.08

2008-12-03 15:34:34
164.   Eric Enders
Three year park factors (2005-07) are 96 for Jacksonville, 108 for Vegas and (in case anyone's interested) 112 for Albuquerque.
2008-12-03 15:35:45
165.   Eric Enders
My official position is that the additional information was worth the extra 36 seconds. ;)
2008-12-03 15:39:10
166.   ToyCannon
I'd say that is a tough park.

Lambo in Albuquerque could be fun. I've had to relearn how to spell Albuquerque all over again.

2008-12-03 15:39:46
167.   Jon Weisman
155 - That game is going to be televised in 3-D at the Mann's Chinese, but it's invite-only.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117996690.html?categoryid=14&cs=1

2008-12-03 15:43:59
168.   CajunDodger
Just read that ESPN will have 7 different people reporting from the GM meetings in Vegas.

Wow...

2008-12-03 15:44:01
169.   underdog
166 And how to avoid making that infamous left turn there.
2008-12-03 15:46:53
170.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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