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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Dodgers Cut Loose Saito, Proctor, Brazoban, Berroa, Alvarez
2008-12-12 18:24
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Tony Jackson of the Daily News passes along the news regardin Takashi Saito, Scott Proctor, Yhency Brazoban, Angel Berroa and Mario Alvarez. The Dodgers can still resign any of them, but so can any other team.

Comments (183)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-12 18:28:25
1.   Tripon
Was Alvarez non-tendered just to free up a 40 man spot?
2008-12-12 18:31:33
2.   Sam DC
Ghame over?
2008-12-12 18:31:34
3.   underdog
Wait, I thought no other MLB team could sign Saito? Or did I misunderstand the parameters around that?
2008-12-12 18:35:20
4.   trainwreck
3
We could have offered him arbitration, but we did not. So now he is out of our control.
2008-12-12 18:41:01
5.   fanerman
Godspeed, Takashi.
2008-12-12 18:42:56
6.   Tripon
The Angels asked the Padres about pitcher Jake Peavy and first baseman Adrian Gonzalez during the recently completed winter meetings in Las Vegas, according to Padres General Manager Kevin Towers.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/

Dear Kevin Towers, why the heck are you still negotiating in the media?

2008-12-12 18:43:41
7.   trainwreck
6
This time he must be thinking that if we include our best hitter teams will give up more.
2008-12-12 18:49:24
8.   Sam DC
So, the Yankee's pitching outlay so far this offseason amounts to a quarter of a billion dollars?

Wow.

2008-12-12 18:51:12
9.   Tripon
8 And yet, they won't look to give Hughes the 5th spot in the starting rotation.
2008-12-12 18:52:22
10.   Sam DC
(Feel free to move my apostrophe one click over. . . .)
2008-12-12 18:52:56
11.   DBrim
And there goes the best smile in baseball. It was fun, Takashi.
2008-12-12 18:53:04
12.   trainwreck
I still think it is funny the Yankees were worried about trading Ian Kennedy in a Santana deal.
2008-12-12 18:55:45
13.   DBrim
12 - I still think it is funny that Lester was held in the same regard as Kennedy last year.
2008-12-12 18:59:56
14.   Bob Hendley
5 - keep the lighthouse in sight...
2008-12-12 19:10:34
15.   trainwreck
There is a rumor that Cardinals offered Manny 5 years $125 million.
2008-12-12 19:10:42
16.   Tripon
The Boston Globe passes along a Nikkan Sports report (link in Japanese) that says the Red Sox made a three-year, $21MM offer to pitcher Kenshin Kawakami. Recently Michael Silverman said he didn't expect Kawakami to sign until January.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/12/report_sox_make_1.html

2008-12-12 19:12:10
17.   Louis in SF
Wonder when we will hear something from Saito's agent. Can't prove anything but wonder if Saito will just hang them up. If he does that I would love to see the Dodgers hire him to work in Japan, he apparently helped recruit Hiroki.
2008-12-12 19:13:10
18.   trainwreck
15
Not a very credible rumor, probably a prank.
2008-12-12 19:14:01
19.   kene
It will be sad to see Sammy in another uniform.
2008-12-12 19:22:08
20.   Indiana Jon
18 Well at least it made my heart skip a beat.
2008-12-12 19:23:54
21.   LAT
15. I heard they were also going to let him play 1B:-)
2008-12-12 19:26:16
22.   LAT
Given Torre's infatuation I don't think we have seen the last of Doctor Proctor.
2008-12-12 19:26:24
23.   dzzrtRatt
8 How sick am I? I hope Sabathia and Burnett both have off-years. Two in a row even. While Santana has a Cy Young season. I want the Steinbrenner boys to get so mad, they beat each other up in the Yankee Stadium parking lot.

I've always hated the way Yankee fans get whatever they want. Carl Pavano's ineffectiveness made me happy. No rings for A-Rod? Happy.

No other team makes me feel this way, not even SF.

2008-12-12 19:30:47
24.   Tripon
I want C.C. to succeed, the best players should be paid the most money. That's how the system should work.

Its when pitchers like Zito sign huge contracts when it seems that everyone knows that his best years were behind him that throws the game out of whack. Its Zito's contract that helped push starting pitching to the crazy heights today, without Zito's contract, I doubt Johan Santana, and C.C. Sababitha barely break $100,000,000

2008-12-12 19:31:04
25.   Bob Timmermann
23
I got over Yankee hatred. It made life much easier.

Notre Dame hatred is another matter. University of Arizona hatred is a new one for me.

2008-12-12 19:33:44
26.   trainwreck
I remember how many people I talked to in Bay Area, not even all A's fans, wished injury upon Jason Giambi after he signed with Yankees.
2008-12-12 19:38:20
27.   Bob Timmermann
Cliff Corcoran is no A.J. Burnett fan:

http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2008/12/12/aj-stands-for-awful-judgment/

2008-12-12 19:40:45
28.   LAT
Don't forget Tom Cruise hatred. More intense than a thousand suns.
2008-12-12 19:41:47
29.   Tripon
You don't like the gift of Scientology?
2008-12-12 19:47:00
30.   Tripon
Good news! Manny doesn't want to retire.

If my online translation tools and six years of Spanish classes are used properly here, Ramirez brushes off a report that he was considering retirement and says his goal is to hit 700 career home runs. He also claims to be unaware of contract negotiatons, which of course is the only logical reason why the Dodgers didn't hear back for a month regarding their two contract offers to him. Ramirez also says he thinks he showed he can play.

http://blogs.pe.com/prosports/mlb/dodgers/

Diamond Lueng also has a post about Martin and Ethier's super-two status.

2008-12-12 19:51:54
31.   arborial
I was unfamiliar with our contract situation with Proctor, why was he non-tendered, does that mean he still had time left with us?
2008-12-12 19:53:31
32.   Tripon
31 Proctor had one year of arbitration left before he could hit free agency. Which won't matter now if he could serve ML time next year.
2008-12-12 19:53:34
33.   trainwreck
27
Bronx Banter just ain't the same without all the swearing.

How sad.

2008-12-12 20:01:32
34.   El Lay Dave
17 There's a vanilla quote in Gurnick's article from Sammy's agent ( http://tinyurl.com/6yanta ):
"We're expecting quite a few teams to be calling in regards to Takashi Saito," agent Nez Balelo said. "We respect the Dodgers' stance and we're moving on and looking forward to free agency."

Couple other interesting lines in that article:
Without Saito, Jonathan Broxton becomes the de facto closer, although management has conceded his inconsistency is likely to lead to the acquisition of a veteran for late-inning insurance.

Proctor's name notable by its absence:
Brazoban and Alvarez are likely to sign Minor League contracts with the Dodgers. Negotiations with Saito and Berroa could resume.

2008-12-12 20:02:02
35.   LAT
29. Well that and the fact that he can't act . . . even a little.
2008-12-12 20:03:41
36.   Tripon
Astros non-tendered outfielder Reggie Abercrombie.
2008-12-12 20:07:21
37.   DBrim
36 - I'm surprised that they non-tendered Wiggington, since they were trying awfully hard to trade him.
2008-12-12 20:07:57
38.   Bob Timmermann
Reggie Abercrombie seemed to be immune from Cody Ross Syndrome.

Not even ToyCannon or JoeyP wanted him back.

Maybe D4P just to stay consistent.

2008-12-12 20:10:16
39.   natepurcell
37

lets pick up wiggington!

2008-12-12 20:21:39
40.   underdog
How is Wiggington better than Casey Blake, other than being a few years younger? Doesn't he K too much, walk too little, play mediocre defense -- he has power but doesn't drive in many runs beyond that. He could be a productive utility guy at this point, but since LA just signed Mark Loretta that would be pointless...
2008-12-12 20:22:59
41.   underdog
Also, for Scott Proctor's sake I hope he signs elsewhere. Though I do think when healthy he can still be a pretty effective set-up guy. I wouldn't mind bringing him back but wouldn't blame him for wanting to go somewhere...safer.
2008-12-12 20:25:58
42.   dzzrtRatt
The Bronx Banter site only reinforces the annoyance. The debate on Burnett comes down to:

"It's a terrible deal, a blot on Cashman's career."

vs.

"It's a terrible deal, a blot on Cashman's career. But no biggie. Let's get Teixeira."

No such thing as scarity in Yankeeland.

2008-12-12 20:26:14
43.   Tripon
The Brave and the Bold cartoon is well, Not up to the quality of Batman: TAS. The cool thing that they're using redesigns of Bruce Timm's.

Also, Diedrich Bader as Batman does not sound like Batman. Its just Dierich Bader as Dierich Bader.

2008-12-12 20:26:58
44.   El Lay Dave
Baseball is so weird. Wouldn't the owners want to negotiate the non-tender deadline to be before free agents can negotiate on the open market, since more players on the open market can only help them? How do the Casey Blake negotiations change if Ty Wigginton - who is, as underdog points out, kind of the same player but younger - is also already a free agent?
2008-12-12 20:28:17
45.   Tripon
44 Baseball doesn't seem to want fast deadlines. Why else hold the winter meetings 2 months after the world series ends?
2008-12-12 20:36:30
46.   underdog
I don't really get it either.

In fact, my head hurts.

Time to watch "Europa" something else I don't quite get and makes my head hurt, but at least is more interesting than the baseball winter meetings.

2008-12-12 20:37:36
47.   fanerman
45 It's for the fans. This way, there's stuff going on in the off-season for the fans to be interested in.
2008-12-12 20:39:40
48.   Tripon
47 We call it football, and basketball.

How about actual games like Winter League stuff? Seems like a fair compromise, ESPN Deportes airs games from the DR, I believe.

2008-12-12 20:50:03
49.   Jon Weisman
http://betamaxmas.com/

Be sure to use the remote if you want to change the channel.

2008-12-12 21:00:58
50.   Bob Hendley
Speaking of winter ball, Berroa in 61 AB is pretty much matching his mlb performance last year, which was (for those that don't remember) .230/.309/.344. In 61 AB so far he is hitting .230/.304/.310. Notably, he has been HBP 5 times by his countrymen. Garate's performace in Venezuela has gotten some ink here, but Alberto Bastardo is putting up some comparable numbers as well in the same league. In Mexico, Paul is hiting .293/.397/.482 with 7 dingers in 164 AB. Finally, Stults hasn't appeared in a game for over a month.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-12 21:04:21
51.   MC Safety
Right when you were almost rooting for the Yankees, they go and and make you hate baseball.
2008-12-12 21:09:03
52.   Bob Timmermann
Complaining about the Yankees now accomplishes nothing. The Yankees have won zero games in the 2009 season.

The AL East is still a very tough division.

2008-12-12 21:16:39
53.   MC Safety
52 Which brings up something I was thinking of earlier.

If you're JP Riccardi, wouldn't it make sense to try and trade Roy Halladay?

I don't see the Jays doing anything in that division anytime soon.

2008-12-12 21:43:44
54.   LAT
Pee Wee was one of the greatest figures ever. Too bad he couldn't, well, you know the rest.
2008-12-12 22:33:53
55.   Tripon
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081213&content_id=3716284&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp&partnerId=rss_mlb

Angels made a 8 year deal to Texiera.

2008-12-12 22:42:48
56.   bhsportsguy
Everyone missed the big story, Repko stays at least for a while.
2008-12-12 22:58:37
57.   kinbote
So, we finally hung onto a fringe outfielder and it's Jason Repko?
2008-12-12 23:25:09
58.   underdog
Pretty impressive run (even if the tackling's awful) by one Barry Sanders, Jr. High school freshman in Oklahoma.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Barry-Sanders-Jr-is-a-chip-off-the-old-block?urn=nfl,128540

2008-12-12 23:28:57
59.   qazplm
Why doesn't anyone like Repko?? I love him as a backup, when healthy; I just don't think he's ever gotten a real shot to succeed.
2008-12-12 23:32:59
60.   NWdodger
"Neal lines a single off the left field screen" -- Vin Scully during the '59 World Series in the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
2008-12-12 23:52:05
61.   DBrim
59 - He needs to improve his often damaging relationship with walls.
2008-12-13 00:02:58
62.   underdog
I'm okay with Repko as a backup OF-er. He's just been injury-prone and has occasionally made others injury prone as well. It's contagious! But I have nothing else against him, he seems perfectly capable if given a chance. Not sure he won't be supplanted soon enough by Xavier Paul or Jamie Hoffman in that role but we'll see.
2008-12-13 00:15:36
63.   qazplm
61 - That made me laugh.
2008-12-13 00:21:04
64.   trainwreck
I was advocating starting Repko and not signing a centerfielder two years ago.

Kind of pointless to have him now unless we are not signing an outfielder or getting rid of Slappy McDribbler and the Hamburglar.

2008-12-13 00:32:51
65.   68elcamino427
64
That's a great observation!
2008-12-13 05:45:15
66.   Dodger Dawg
I understand Saito and Penny, but when did the Dodgers become the Pirates? This is a team that drew almost 4 million people last season and all this salary came off of the books, where's it going, does Frank need another house?
2008-12-13 06:56:40
67.   Bob Hendley
66 - Do I detect a smidgen of Angel love in that statement? Never thought that they should have signed him and certainly wouldn't want them to resign him, but other than Wade, he is the one Dodger last year who exceeded my expectations.
2008-12-13 07:27:19
68.   bhsportsguy
66 How are they the Pirates, there was no chance they were going to be in the CC and/or Burnett battles for various reasons. Of the players they non-tendered, 4 pitchers were coming off injuries and the one who could be optioned was going to be on the DL for the whole year. The other one, was Berroa that they did not want to be on the hook for any fraction of his 2008 salary through arbitration.

Now, if they have this same roster on February 15th, then I think you can argue that obviously there a budget concerns but right now, its a little early.

2008-12-13 07:29:30
69.   PalmdaleSteve1
66

Parking Lot Frank figured out that you can only make so much money from raising parking prices, so gotta make money with the Dodgers somehow. Go cheap with the payroll for on the field and pocket the difference. Need to pay for all those community ball fields somehow.

2008-12-13 07:51:34
70.   Bumsrap
We have talked about how we may or may not have supported the signing of Jones. So, for the record, I do not want to sign Manny.
2008-12-13 08:06:21
71.   Bob Hendley
Just got the 2008 APBA disk (Torre, not included!).
2008-12-13 08:12:13
72.   Ken Noe
Generally, I commend the Dodgers this week for finally learning not to contract pitchers with torn arm parts or compete against themselves. I like the Loretta pickup, and while Ned overrates Blake, he ended up cheaper than I expected. Right now, it seems we are the Manny market, while if he does go elsewhere there are enough other power bats out there to keep JP on the bench. I would like to know more about the condition of the Samurai's elbow, as sentimentally I do want him back. I'm unconvinced that a retread SP will be any better than the Kershaw/McDonald/Stults.
2008-12-13 08:29:22
73.   Bob Hendley
I might agree as regards retread SPs, but there are injury risks and IP limitations that suggest we need to pick up someone (if not two someones) and not count on an NRI or a farm arm sticking.
2008-12-13 08:32:29
74.   PalmdaleSteve1
70

So where are you going to get a bat for the Dodgers? Raffie a question mark, Kent gone, Garciapara gone, Jones a large question mark, not a whole heck of a lot of firepower in the Dodgers lineup, and that's been the story for 1 1/2 seasons for the Dodgers.

So no Manny, were is the offense coming from, well where's the defense and pitching coming from for that matter? Are you counting on Schmitt coming back, Juan is going to change to being a power hitter, Andruw is going to find is stroke in Winter baseball ? Yikes!

2008-12-13 08:34:52
75.   Bob Timmermann
Argentine soccer not on the up and up?

http://tinyurl.com/6rsre9

Oh no! I have no heroes left.

2008-12-13 08:46:54
76.   immouch
saito and furcal...

greed and honor work a couple directions, eh. on the one hand, furcal probably owes the dodgers a do-over. he was good to great when he played, but he was healthy for roughly 1.5 years of the 3-year $39 million contract. though i understand it's easy for me to turn down millions of imaginary money, i'd think being rich makes it possible to pay for things like self respect. in other words, he should sign with the dodgers for a decent amount and provide the services for which he's already been paid. on the flip side, saito was one of the three best closers in baseball while being paid about 10 percent of his market value. the dodgers owners, if they had honor - and they don't - would pay the man a few million to find out if he's elbow is gonna come back. if you think this is horrible business, by the way, ponder how jerry buss would handle this... and then look at the rafters at staples...

2008-12-13 08:54:37
77.   DaDoughboy
I sure hope Tex decides to take this 8 year offer. I would have to figure that if he doesn't sign then the Angels are going to be heavy in the Manny market.

We need you Manny wan Kenobi..you're our only hope.

2008-12-13 08:55:13
78.   Bob Hendley
One has to seriously question an article that portrays Diego as the defender of truth and justice. That Boca has an advantage on the pitch with the referees is commonly accepted and not all that unusual in sports in general. The top teams win because they have money to get the best players, not because the system is rigged with split seasons and the use of a three-year average for relegation. Smaller teams can enter the title fray occassionally, but it is difficult for them to sustain these performances without more resources, as the richer teams just pick off their best players.
2008-12-13 09:06:31
79.   immouch
70, 77: manny is a good hope, but not our only hope. dunn and burrell would be steps down from manny, but not huge ones. the falloff from raffy to the next best shortstop (michael young? jack wilson? noooooo) is a doozy. and, yeah, i'm wondering if the dodgers have re-invented baseball and determined that homers are actually bad things...
2008-12-13 09:08:15
80.   Bob Hendley
But Manny put balls and butts into the seats.
2008-12-13 09:11:53
81.   PalmdaleSteve1
79 80

Manny not only put butts in seats, he kept them in the seats past the 7th inning and into the playoffs. How much is that worth to Parking Lot Frank?

2008-12-13 09:36:13
82.   Tripon
Depends on how much people buy concessions in the 7th and 8th inning.
2008-12-13 09:38:07
83.   underdog
RotoAuthority looks at the Giants revamped bullpen:

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2008/12/a-look-at-the-s.html

The upshot: It'll be improved, and Wilson, Affeldt and Howry all give up their share of HRs so there will also be some painful losses.

2008-12-13 09:47:50
84.   Icaros
83

Hopefully I'm only there for the painful losses.

2008-12-13 09:48:03
85.   oshea2002
80 - that's the key. For now, there is zero reason for the Dodgers to panic. But what if Manny get a bigger offer somewhere, say 4 or 5 years? Assuming Furcal also walks, one has to figure the payroll would be pretty dramatically reduced unless they waste money. It won't be spun well by the media I'm guessing, and although the economy is down, it'll be tough to make that sell if parking and ticket prices don't also drop.
2008-12-13 09:48:11
86.   OhioBlues12
79 - I would guess that if we lose out on Furcal that we would look to make a deal for Miguel Tejada. The Astros are looking to dump some salary and need to rebuild their farm system in the worst way. Bringing in Tejada for a season and resigning Manny would complete the offense.
2008-12-13 09:49:54
87.   underdog
84 Usually we are both there for the painful losses. Unfortunately, painful for us. Hopefully there will be some blowout wins for the Dodgers so we don't even to worry about 9th inning meltdowns on either side.
2008-12-13 09:56:16
88.   Bob Hendley
85 - OK, I'll save my panic for when I hear: "Ladies and gentlemen, leading off and playing left field..."
2008-12-13 10:00:52
89.   DaDoughboy
76.
Great point regarding Raffy. The fact that he is even considering a 4 yr deal from the Royals (a complete non-contender), makes no sense to me. Take the 2 years with the Dodgers, hope to round back in to form, and then hit paydirt as an elite SS, not a league-wide question mark. I hope the extra 2 years for a small market team is worth it to him..
2008-12-13 10:02:54
90.   PalmdaleSteve1
85

Panic....why would Dodgers fans do that...well the mustache might just do more silly things.

Like maybe offer Schmitty a contract extension @ say 100 Million for 5 years, just because the Dodgers want to be like the "big boys" and the mustache thinks he's going to be great...one day.

2008-12-13 10:04:15
91.   oshea2002
89 - he's 31 coming off some injuries, he may need to take his $$$ now.
2008-12-13 10:04:59
92.   oshea2002
88 - I'm still holding hope out for "Leading off and in left field for your New York Mets...."
2008-12-13 10:05:48
93.   Tripon
89 Furcal's 31 and will be age 32 in 2009. The same teams that are willing to good pay for his age 32-33-34-35 seasons won't be the same teams that would offer similar money for his age 34-35-36-37 years.

If there's concern about his back, and age this time, its only going to be that much more next time.

And its not as if Furcal can't push a trade later on from the Royals to a contender, heck, I'm sure that's partly why the Royals are signing him, for the net of prospects at the end of their relationship with Furcal. If Furcal signs with the Royals for 4 years, he's not going to play in Kansas City for all 4 years.

2008-12-13 10:07:02
94.   DaDoughboy
For any of you SB people out there, anything new for the nightlife? I'm heading up there tonight to help a buddy move tomorrow. I figure La Superica is a no-brainer for lunch, but curious if there are any other hole in the wall or hot spots up there..
2008-12-13 10:14:13
95.   underdog
94 I can ask my mom. See if she's willing to host a stranger and turn their place into a hot spot for ya, I mean, at the worst. ;-)

There's always stuff buzzing on State Street at night but when I go back rarely end up doing anything too hot or hip at night.

Maybe mintx can help.

2008-12-13 10:15:07
96.   underdog
Kerry Wood is now officially an Indian. In case anyone still cared.
2008-12-13 10:15:34
97.   Bob Hendley
IIRC Tejada was seen by some here as one of the big bat options last year, when we went with Druw. While he didn't completely fall off the ledge performance-wise, his OPS of .729 ended up being in the Solution range (.728)
2008-12-13 10:21:35
98.   DaDoughboy
95.
Thanks..I lived up there for 5 yrs and did everything between Q's to Wildcat (pre burn-down) back in the day. I've heard the Sportsman is getting to be a good pub for pint and some futbol..trying to avoid the college crowd (if possible):)
2008-12-13 10:25:35
99.   Jon Weisman
76 - Furcal was injured on the job and owes the Dodgers absolutely nothing. The risk of injury is part of any baseball contract. No one should be punished for an injury suffered in the line of duty. The injury is punishment enough.

And as far as Furcal's self-respect goes, it's clear he made every effort to play as much as he possibly could.

2008-12-13 10:30:55
100.   jasonungar07
Yet another offseason goes by when the best available hitter in his prime and the best available pitcher in his prime are not even considered. What will be considered are old guys. It's frustrating.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-13 10:51:07
101.   Big Game
100 Are you talking about Sabathia and Texiera?
2008-12-13 10:54:30
102.   Xeifrank
Due to defense and baserunning, I am not sure that Burrell is much of an upgrade over Juan Pierre in LF. If we sign a LFer, then we really need to dump Pierre and get another team to take as much of his salary (1/3 to 1/2) as possible. That money could be used to pay a fraction of Pierre's replacement or a fraction of a league average starting pitcher or bullpen help etc...
vr, Xei
2008-12-13 11:04:09
103.   MollyKnight
Realistically, what teams are still in the Manny hunt?
2008-12-13 11:06:51
104.   Big Game
103 I'd say the Dodgers and the two teams out of the Yankees, Angels, and Nationals that don't sign Teixeira
2008-12-13 11:07:00
105.   Harold M Johnson
103 I would guess if the Angels don't get Tex, they might give it some serious thought. The only other option I think is the Yankees.
2008-12-13 11:09:25
106.   goofus
Is offering Furcal a four year contract with a mutual opt-out after two years possible. If he's still having injury trouble, we can drop hem; If he is going great, he can opt out and be a free agent again. This should be OK with him if he really believes he's healthy.
2008-12-13 11:11:01
107.   MollyKnight
104-I really do think the Angels are going to sign Tex. I guess the Red Sox could swoop in, but I mean, they've got a great little hitter playing first in Kevin Youkilis already. I guess they could move him, but it's not like they for sure NEED Tex in a line-up with him, Pedroia, Bay, and Papi.

If the Angels sign Tex, then it should come down to the Yankees and Dodgers, right? I really just don't see the Yanks shelling out that kind of money after signing CC, AJ, and, probably, Pettite. I mean, geez.

2008-12-13 11:11:42
108.   jasonungar07
I'd bet the Yankees get Manny.
2008-12-13 11:19:17
109.   Bob Hendley
I guessing that Manny ends up with the Yanks as well, with the the O's getting Tex.
2008-12-13 11:20:39
110.   oshea2002
108 - I think Manny ends up in Anaheim. I'm guessing Tex goes to Boston.
2008-12-13 11:25:14
111.   Tripon
Okay, I really don't get why the Royals would sign Farnsworth. You needed that money for Furcal,(If they were really serious about signing Furcal), and Farnsworth has little trade value. This is a head scratcher.
2008-12-13 11:29:22
112.   MollyKnight
111-It's the Royals.

Manny to the Yanks would be a dagger in manny hearts.

2008-12-13 11:34:27
113.   oshea2002
112 - The Angels would be worse, especially PR wise. Any team can spin it if they lose an FA to the Yankees.
2008-12-13 11:43:25
114.   Bob Timmermann
Manny to the Yanks would be a dagger in manny hearts.

Cardiologists call this condition "Manny being Manny cardiomyopathy"

2008-12-13 11:47:41
115.   Icaros
Manny hearts money.
2008-12-13 11:48:36
116.   Tripon
You better hope the Yankees sign either Tex then.

The Yankees can only sign one more type-A or Type-B FA, they might as well go for broke.

2008-12-13 11:55:16
117.   Tripon
Looks like the Reds won't be interested in Juan Pierre(not they really interested before) with Willy Tarvaras as a Free Agent.
2008-12-13 12:35:41
118.   Gagne55
116 I remember seeing the rule about limits to signing ranked free agents, but it seems like some article would have mentioned it by now. That's a strong reason for the Yankees wanting to sign Pettite over Sheets or Lowe if it's true.
2008-12-13 13:14:28
119.   underdog
Manny and Bugs Bunny are united at last in the pic with this blog piece:

http://tinyurl.com/5792m2

2008-12-13 13:22:39
120.   LAT
76 i'd think being rich makes it possible to pay for things like self respect.

I don't think that's how it works.

2008-12-13 13:29:24
121.   LAT
My prediction is
Tex to Angels
Manny to Dodgers. Yankees don't really want him.

I have to wonder if cold market for Manny has anything to do with the way he quit on Boston to force a trade. If I were an owner it would make me think twice.

2008-12-13 13:30:37
122.   trainwreck
I get the feeling Auburn fans are not too happy right now.
2008-12-13 13:32:02
123.   Bob Timmermann
I buy my self-respect at CostCo.

It's easier to buy in bulk.

2008-12-13 13:36:48
124.   Louis in SF
In my effort to show faith that the Dodgers will sign Manny, I had a 12 year old rum last night at restaurant in SF from the DR-it was quite good.

I think Tex ends up in Boston, which for Boras that could be good than Manny's market expands to the Yanks, Angels and Dodgers.

2008-12-13 13:40:00
125.   Daniel Zappala
I think either the Yankees or Angels sign Teixeira. I don't think the Angels will go after Manny if they don't get him. Instead they might get Abreu or Burrell, and they may use trades to get additional pieces. I really do see any major players for Manny besides the Dodgers.
2008-12-13 13:41:03
126.   LAT
123. I bought some there but reurned it. I found the product too cumbersome and the instructions were not very clear. Also, I discovered the product was totally incompatable with my job.
2008-12-13 13:53:57
127.   oshea2002
122 - I can't remember a coach getting a better gig after basically losing every game he's coached in.
2008-12-13 13:58:15
128.   trainwreck
It feels weird to be watching boxing at 2:00 in the afternoon.
2008-12-13 14:07:34
129.   trainwreck
Won't be able to watch UCLA game today, that is pretty lame.
2008-12-13 14:20:09
130.   Daniel Zappala
Since the market is shrinking for Lowe, I wonder if the Dodgers can bring him back on a 2 or 3 year deal at a reasonable cost.
2008-12-13 14:25:00
131.   Disabled List
125, 130 - Somebody's gonna get in on the Manny bidding. It doesn't take too much to top the Dodgers' offer at this point. Once Teixeira signs, we'll know.

As for Lowe, Ned has already put the kibosh on it.

2008-12-13 14:26:46
132.   underdog
At least Lowe won't be going to the Yankees now. But if he goes to the Mets, doesn't that also mean the Dodgers only get a 2nd rounder due to the KRod signing? Argh.

Btw, what do people know about Japanese pitcher Kenshin Kawakami? He's been linked to the Braves and Red Sox, but the Dodgers were also mentioned as being interested. Doesn't seem worth getting excited about...

2008-12-13 14:31:58
133.   Harold M Johnson
Just read on MLBtraderumors.com that Saito turned down one year at $2mm to become a free agent.
2008-12-13 14:35:20
134.   Bumsrap
74 - It sounds like you are qualifying your interest in Manny by saying he fills a hole or a need instead of saying you really like Manny.

I would like to see the Dodgers to show caution with their spending in these troubled economic times. And, they need pitching depth more than they need Manny.

There are two Mannys. Which Manny will the Dodgers get if they wind paying him less than he thought he would get and less than he thinks he deserves. Anybody that can't jump up and down with appreciation at making $15,000,000 a year and show that appreciation on the field with hustle and joy will eventually be a problem.

2008-12-13 14:39:25
135.   LAT
What about bringing back Randy Wolf. Not a savior but at least a resonable pitcher.

I will be really disappointed if Ned so much as looks at Trevor Hoffman. He's no longer reliable and Hells Bells has no place in DS.

2008-12-13 14:42:40
136.   Ken Noe
135 We could do worse than Wolf; I though it was a mistake to let him go.
2008-12-13 14:51:51
137.   PalmdaleSteve1
134 Baseball is a business

rinse

Repeat Baseball is a business

If Manny don't get that, then the Dodgers better not sign him or anyone with an ego.

2008-12-13 15:06:20
138.   Dodgers49
Per Diamond Leung:

Dodgers' Andruw Jones is hitting .500

>> Andruw Jones made his Dominican Winter League debut last night for Aguilas, going 1 for 2 with a walk and a strikeout while playing center field. He hit fifth in the lineup. (Newly signed Hector Luna hit second).

Jones is expected to play there until Christmas-time when he'll return home for a break. He's expected to play about five weeks there. <<

http://tinyurl.com/6b58wh

2008-12-13 15:11:17
139.   Bumsrap
137 - I think we agree.

135 - The Dodgers better get Wolf or someone like him. The rotation as it stands now is going to wear down as the season progresses and the bullpen will have already pitched too many innings to compensate.

2008-12-13 15:12:47
140.   Bumsrap
138 - Did Diamond mention anything about Jones' weight?
2008-12-13 15:16:25
141.   Bumsrap
Edwin Jackson might have been fun to have back on the Dodgers instead of being traded to Detroit.
2008-12-13 15:22:28
142.   Alex41592
Slideshow with pictures of Andruw Jones arriving in the Dominican with Rafael Furcal there to greet him.

http://www.aguilas.com.do/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&page=slideshow&gid=27&Itemid=109

2008-12-13 15:40:44
143.   LAT
142. Andruw actually looks thin in those pictures. I think he's just naturally covered in a layer of baby fat.

Raffy's eyes look like he had been hitting the pipe just before meeting Druw.

Finally, its nice to see Andruw doesn't have to fly commercial.

2008-12-13 15:52:40
144.   Tripon
mlbtraderumors.com has Saito turning down a $2.5 million contract.

That sounds fair, and even though its sad to see him leave, I can understand why the Dodgers wouldn't want to chance with him in arbitration.

2008-12-13 16:41:48
145.   PDH5204
144 Can you understand why they substantially underpaid the man for all three of his years with the team?

That reality puts into perspective all of Ned's talk of "great respect" and this notion that not wanting to take a chance is "fair". If they agree to pay him more and he doesn't deliver, it'd be easy to accept as simply the team paying him some money this year that they didn't pay him over the last three years. You might say that in giving Saito the benefit of the doubt here, they'd be playing with money that would already be Sammy's had salary truly matched skill and performance.

2008-12-13 16:50:50
146.   Big Game
145 Doesn't a large share of the responsibility lie with the player signing the contracts? Saito was willing to accept the deals the Dodgers offered, so I doubt Saito felt he was underpaid.
2008-12-13 16:53:13
147.   Bob Hendley
143 - Finally, its nice to see Andruw doesn't have to fly commercial.

That's the Santiago airport, which I don't believe is international. Its likely that he flew commercial to either Santo Domingo, or even Puerto Plata, and then took a small commuter flight to Santiago. Hence the walk on the tarmac.

2008-12-13 16:59:47
148.   bhsportsguy
145 Saito signed a Non-Roster contract in 2006, he then went to AAA, was assigned to the 40-man roster and made the MLB minimum in 2006, in 2007, he got a larger than usual contract due to his unique circumstances (ability to just return to Japan). In 2008, he signed a similar deal. Had he not been injured, he certainly would have been eligible for a huge raise for 2009.

Unless you feel that players in their first 3 years deserve more than the minimum, than I am not sure how anyone is underpaid. Its a fact that teams have all the power up until the first opportunity for arbitration, after that its a battle.

2008-12-13 17:01:30
149.   immouch
99
not saying furcal didn't give his best effort. and i'm aware that injuries are part of the deal (but thanks for pointing it out). that said, the man didn't hold up his end of the deal, regardless of why. i have a feeling if you were in that spot, and you could get generational money regardless of where you signed, you'd do the deal that would make you feel better - the one that helps you finish whatever you started. an open market doesn't mean he is obligated to get every last penny.
2008-12-13 17:09:24
150.   Andrew Shimmin
I wish Sabathia was a Dodger, instead of a Yankee.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-13 17:10:04
151.   Jon Weisman
149 - No, he absolutely did hold up his end of the deal. He played ball to the best of his abilities.

If I were Furcal, I would go where I'd be happiest - whether that depends on money or location or teammates or whatever - but I certainly wouldn't feel any obligation to the Dodgers. If there's a better offer elsewhere, he should leave with his head held high.

2008-12-13 17:14:51
152.   LoneStar7
hey all, haven't checked in a while...by the way in that slide show is that Wilson Betemit int he yankees shirt? kinda funny to see all those braves guys still hanging out

i really hope wakes up this year...

2008-12-13 17:18:26
153.   immouch
102:
for what it's worth, pierre's VORP in 2007 (his last season as a full-time regular) was about 13. burrell's, last year, was about 38... i mean, i don't pretend to know if VORP is the best way to say which player is better, but on that scale the numbers don't seem close...
2008-12-13 17:18:55
154.   Bob Hendley
150 - No whining.
2008-12-13 17:25:48
155.   Andrew Shimmin
154- Sure. All I'm saying is, wouldn't that be great? If Colletti had signed him, then Sabathia would pitch for the Dodgers every five days, instead of the Yankees. Which would be excellent because Sabathia is very good at pitching.
2008-12-13 17:34:07
156.   immouch
151
hmmm. i can agree with most of that. and if he feels he'd be happier in KC or wherever, then, sure, he should take that. i guess all i'm saying is i'd feel a little less than my happiest if i'd accepted the kind of money he accepted from the dodgers, then - for whatever reason - didn't produce as much as i could... and followed up that stint by taking fractionally more money to play elsewhere... but, hey, i buy my self respect at zodys...
2008-12-13 17:47:17
157.   Andrew Shimmin
Wooden's grandkid should get his hands up on defense.
2008-12-13 17:56:30
158.   trainwreck
Sam Bradford, your Heisman winner.
2008-12-13 17:57:18
159.   bhsportsguy
157 His great-grand kid. Coach Wooden probably wished he would have shot a bank shot.
2008-12-13 18:01:47
160.   Daniel Zappala
156 I know I would accept marginally less in order to fulfill my original goals, provided I was still happy with the team. Everyone always says that baseball is a business, but a business doesn't have to be heartless, and an employee doesn't have to have zero loyalty.
2008-12-13 18:07:04
161.   Andrew Shimmin
I would accept a little less money to come back to the Dodgers, but I'd make up for it by selling my teammates' equipment on eBay. People would pay big money for THE Casey Blake's batting gloves in a way that they just wouldn't for Billy Butler.
2008-12-13 18:11:01
162.   Marty
Unfortunately most large businesses, and particularly baseball, have zero loyalty to their employees, so I wouldn't hold players to a higher standard.
2008-12-13 18:20:11
163.   PDH5204
148 Your last paragraph there says it all for me. The ability to play in Japan? See Curt Flood. Article XX of the relevant collective bargaining agreement contains the reservation of players on the plantation. And so with your noted "power", some ought not to speak to "great respect" and things purportedly "fair", unless, of course, their conduct truly evinces those notions. I rather doubt that the CBA was negotiated with the likes of Takashi Saito in mind. I don't get the sense that when some were negotiating reserve and salary rights, that some had in mind the 37 year old pitcher from the Yokohama Baystars. For what's "fair", add to the ability to play in Japan, the ability to play for any team, anywhere. As you yourself admit, it was the play in Japan that prompted more. Give him the rest of the right that you and I have and he'd likely have obtained the rest. Then they and we could "fairly" worry over his age and his ulnar collateral ligament. Lastly, as you yourself otherwise admit, it was the prospect of Japan that prompted more than the CBA minimum, and so they were always free to pay the man the value of his service.

Sorry, but for my philosophy here, maybe it will help legal world familiar you if I say that I don't credit you for not killing anyone, as there's a law in your state that proscribes death for you should you do so with the requisite intent. So it might not be notions of humanity and compassion that stops you from killing, but instead mere self-interest. If, however, you jump into that raging river to save the drowning soul in the absence of the special relationship, then all the credit is yours.

2008-12-13 18:25:45
164.   immouch
when did john wooden go country western? i mean, it's a cool look for him, but... unexpected...
2008-12-13 18:26:31
165.   Bob Hendley
155 - Is that fretting? (B. Timmermann says that we waste too much energy fretting over free agent signing).
2008-12-13 18:26:46
166.   Daniel Zappala
162 I tried to play it both ways there. Most large businesses are heartless, but it doesn't have to be that way; there are numerous counter-examples. I'm hoping both teams and players could give just a small fraction. Allow me to retain a sliver of optimism and naiveté.
2008-12-13 18:35:57
167.   immouch
166/162... naive? i don't think it's any more naive to see the players (or owners) motivated by factors other than money than it is to see them as cartoons motivated only by money. i think it's a mix. i think the word used earlier was "happiness," which, thin as it is, might be the better barometer.
2008-12-13 18:37:29
168.   Jon Weisman
164 - I can only assume from your post that he's wearing his bolo tie. He's been doing that for years.
2008-12-13 18:40:21
169.   immouch
yeah. hadn't seen that before.
2008-12-13 19:01:03
170.   Andrew Shimmin
How big a discount does loyalty suggest Furcal be willing to take for having gotten hurt while playing baseball?
2008-12-13 19:10:14
171.   Hollywood Joe
Weird notion

There is a weird notion in sports that I sometimes hear on this board. This idea that is put forth does not translate to any other place in our lives. Namely fans actively suggest and in many cases expect that players "take less" to play for their favorite team or out of some sense of morality / loyalty to the fan base or employer

I won't get into the player vs. owner and all that entails other than saying that players are production units that have limited periods of value and it is only rational for players to maximize their earnings while they can. Baseball does not look out for the best interest of the player; baseball looks out for baseball. The player is forced to look after the player.

Outside of that, even after achieving a certain level of wealth a particular player wanted to do a home town discount, it would only be possible if it was very close to current market for that player. The MLBPA deeply frowns on players taking less than market in terms of either dollars or years. The MLBPA is always looking to set the market higher so that it benefits all of its members, if stars start signing for less the whole thing falls apart

Finally, how many of you would stay with your current job out of loyalty (knowing full well that you will be replaced ruthlessly once you are not as good as you are today) and not go work somewhere else that was offering greater security and more money.

I lied, that wasn't "finally", this is… Finally, when players go play for another team it really is more like they are moving to another branch or division within the same company than that they are going to work for a competitor. MLB is more like one big company with geographically dispersed divisions with regional CEOS than it is like Coke and Pepsi

Sign me a confused capitalist

2008-12-13 19:33:09
172.   Megaballs
Look closer at the pictures.

Andruw's still soft in the middle and sporting the manboobs too.

2008-12-13 19:55:57
173.   DBrim
Tommy received an honor from the Emperor of Japan. (Japan is still an empire??)

http://tinyurl.com/65qkh5

2008-12-13 20:15:13
174.   immouch
171
so when you're transferred from santa monica to anchorage, you take it because, as a production unit, you could get, say, 10 percent more money? if the answer is "no," then you're taking into account factors that aren't purely monetary. if you're wearing something other than costco jeans or driving something other than a hyundai or eating corn flakes that don't happen to be generic, then you're taking into account something other than money. (hey, biz. school is for everybody, right?)
i haven't read anybody in today's thread suggesting that furcal stay in LA out of loyalty. i've said he should stay in LA, even if it means turning down a fractional pay increase, because i'm guessing he'll feel better about doing so. furcal - and maybe it's just projection - seems to me like a guy who might want to do that. he was paid more than a million bucks a month over the past three years. with that money in his accounts he and his family and his heirs have options - including an option of playing out a second contract that would allow him to perform up to his abilities for the money paid.
and, sure, the union would like everybody to take the highest offer. but highest isn't necessarily "best," and, given we're talking fractional differences in offers, i'm guessing the union wouldn't cause a ruckus.
would the dodgers treat furcal as well? probably not. but that doesn't mean it's not in his interest to do better.
as michael corleone said: "it's just business."
2008-12-13 20:27:43
175.   fanerman
Sportscenter just quoted FIP. They didn't call it FIP, but they quoted it. The dude described it as ERA on plays that don't involve fielding, ie strikeouts, walks, home runs. They were describing Kerry Wood signing with the Indians. His FIP last year was 2.21 or something. Among the other closers listed were Papelbon and Broxton. I found it interesting.
2008-12-13 20:45:06
176.   Andrew Shimmin
How much money is there in a "fractional pay increase" ? How big a disparity in offers does there have to be before the moral obligation (which arises, remember, from his having gotten hurt while on the clock) to finish what he started, etc., stops being operative?
2008-12-13 21:24:51
177.   Daniel Zappala
176 Anything within spitting distance. ;-)
2008-12-13 21:33:09
178.   immouch
176
good question. and i don't know what the answer would be.
my guess is the offers for furcal are ballpark close, and that the differences are about guarantees, not dollars. but it's just a guess.
i'm not arguing that the guy do something out of moral obligation. (who knows what that even means, anyway? i don't.) what i am saying is the guy might be happier playing out a second contract for a team that already paid him pretty well in a deal that didn't quite pan out.
i am not - repeat, not - suggesting furcal is a jerk or that he jaked it with the dodgers. quite the opposite, actually.
2008-12-13 21:52:58
179.   Hollywood Joe
174

My comment was not meant to be purely specific to Furcal but rather a comment on a somewhat frequent topic either here or when I talk to sports fans in other forums. The thing that strikes me as strange is that sports seems to be the only place where this is even suggested. No one would suggest that the top shoe sales person at the local Nordstrom earning a grand a week, but who was sick for several weeks during peak times, not go to Bloomingdales when they offer him a better deal.

For your question to me - Wow, Anchorage or Santa Monica, pretty extreme choices, you could have at least given me a major league city (they all seem to have their charms to one degree or another) but of course I take it for 10% (10% of CC's contract is $16M! – the average raise outside of baseball is under 4%!!!), or for longer guaranteed years, or larger signing bonus...

I hope that I would realize that the average big league career is about 6 years and that a very long one rarely last over 15 years. With that in mind I would value each and every year as an earning opportunity that neither me nor my family will likely ever see again. A four year deal represents about 25% to 50% of my total earnings that I will ever see from the skill I do best in the world, a skill that runs out on me by the time I am 40. I would take that very seriously (especially with a history of injury) and would never let notions like loyalty or comfort or that I owe the organization anything get into my head. I would realize that my 4 years in Anchorage would be followed by 50 years (if I am lucky) living anywhere I want in the world

Would I do it for 10% of my current salary today? I dunno, I would actually looking more for guaranteed income…that could get me. For the record, I have already done it before, I moved to North Carolina for 4 years just for the money, the options, and the title. I didn't want to live there, I didn't like living there, but I did my 4 years and have returned to this sunny burb wealthier than if I simply stayed. Wealth counts.

Specific to Furcal I don't think he owes the Dodgers any discounts at all. By all accounts he played hard when healthy, played well when healthy, and when injured worked his tail off to get back as quickly as possible. It's all labor, it's all work. Playing or rehabbing, he is just another guy going to work.

2008-12-13 22:02:20
180.   Daniel Zappala
No one would suggest that the top shoe sales person at the local Nordstrom earning a grand a week, but who was sick for several weeks during peak times, not go to Bloomingdales when they offer him a better deal.

This is all hypothetical of course, but what if the employer retained his position for him in the highest selling area of the store, paid for the best doctor in town to tend to him while he was sick, delivered homemade soup every day, and threw a welcome back party the day he or she got back to work? And then offered essentially the same money as Bloomingdales? Wouldn't it seem a little ungrateful if the person left?

All I'm saying is that employers in the real world sometimes do treat their employees as more than a "production unit" and employees sometimes see value in a particular company above and beyond the next paycheck.

2008-12-13 22:13:37
181.   Hollywood Joe
180

Well now I think we are really getting off the map

I dont think there is anything to suggest that the Dodgers did any less or any more for Furcal than any other team does for their injured players.

I dont know that being a Dodger is really better than being anything else

2008-12-13 22:27:18
182.   Andrew Shimmin
What if, instead of forgoing money on the table, Furcal gives something else to the team. Maybe he could do a little scouting while he's down in the Winter Leagues, and file reports only to them. He could take Colletti suit shopping and walk the McCourts' dog.
2008-12-13 22:30:51
183.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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