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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Journalists Definitely Not Furcal's Top Priority
2008-12-16 21:10
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

It's the dawn of a new day. You could argue about who came off worse in Tuesday's meanderings - Rafael Furcal, his representation or baseball's beat writers. But then it's never pretty watching sausage being made, isn't it?

Anyway, the sunrise didn't bring us any news about where this particular link was going to be delivered. So while we wait:

  • Sherry Stern of the Times peeks at hotels near the Dodgers' new Camelback Ranch Spring Training facility.

  • Ramon Troncoso is discussed as a "hidden gem" at Fangraphs.

  • Comments (380)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-12-17 07:28:53
    1.   Disabled List
    What's going to end sooner? The Furcal saga, or the Minnesota Senate recount?

    I have partisan interests in both cases, but at this point, I don't care either way. Just get it over with.

    2008-12-17 07:33:18
    2.   delias man
    Wikipedia says TW has minority ownership in MLB network, so I would assume that TW will offer that channel.
    2008-12-17 07:35:56
    3.   Ken Noe
    While I hope it ends today, and in a way that protects us from Cabrera or Wilson, I confess I'd be intrigued to see what headlines Jon would keep coming up with.
    2008-12-17 07:36:55
    4.   Bob Timmermann
    1
    Either way, Nate Silver is going to have to do a projection.
    2008-12-17 07:52:16
    5.   natepurcell
    The Tron-Tron write up at fan graphs was optimistic!
    2008-12-17 07:58:00
    6.   ToyCannon
    As I recall no one has been a bigger Troncoso booster then DodgerCanuck.
    2008-12-17 08:01:16
    7.   natepurcell
    6

    That Tron-Tron to Carmona comparison would be sweet.

    2008-12-17 08:01:51
    8.   JoeyP
    Did Dave Cameron forget the #1 rule about statistical analysis: sample size.

    38 innings.

    How can you base any projections based on 38 MLB innings?

    2008-12-17 08:05:45
    9.   JoeyP
    In addition, I dont think Cameron looked Troncoso's 2008 season in Vegas.

    30.2 IP
    4.7 BB/9
    5.3 K/9

    Sure, the guy somehow put up way better numbers in MLB than AAA last year, but until Troncoso puts more innings under his belt, it'll be hard to determine how good he is.

    2008-12-17 08:07:08
    10.   natepurcell
    8

    Minor league numbers and scouting do support what Tron Tron did in the majors.

    2008-12-17 08:10:47
    11.   natepurcell
    9

    Well...besides Vegas...

    2008-12-17 08:11:57
    12.   JoeyP
    10- He's had only 1 stretch (Inland Empire (26 IP in 2007)) that was really eye opening. His stops in AA & AAA were not anything special.

    He has done well at every stop of not giving up homers though.

    2008-12-17 08:14:57
    13.   Kevin Lewis
    The news about Rocco Baldelli in the last thread made me happy for him and his family. I truly hope this is the beginning of a new life for him
    2008-12-17 08:22:59
    14.   regfairfield
    How many guys can throw low to mid 90s with a Derek Lowe like ground ball percentage?

    That's more than enough reason to be enthusiastic about Troncoso, regardless of his numbers.

    2008-12-17 08:26:43
    15.   DemRmyBums
    Interesting questions regarding Troncoso, however, He has not piched since Nov 29th. Why?
    It would make for an interesting if young starting 5 of
    Billingsly (24)
    Kuroda (34)
    Kershaw (21)
    Troncoso (26)
    McDonald (24)

    With backup starters of Stults(29)/Schmidt(36)/Elbert(23)/Castillo(24)/Miller(24)/Orenduff(25)

    Bullpen
    Garate (24)
    Elbert (23)
    Schlichting (24)
    Wade (25)
    Broxton (24)
    Kuo (27)
    Stults (29) long Relief
    Castillo (24) long Relief (7-4 3.24 era at Jax)

    Here are 17 pitchers from the Dodgers current 40 man roster. Maybe it is time to give them a chance,
    rather than throwing more money at Free Agents or our talent at questionable trades.

    2008-12-17 08:27:55
    16.   regfairfield
    Everyone on that list who actually deserves a chance has gotten one.
    2008-12-17 08:29:39
    17.   arborial
    0 actually sausage being made can be quite entertaining

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geQ5bSA3A1I

    2008-12-17 08:30:07
    18.   DemRmyBums
    Another thing about Troncoso is groundballs tend to get though a minor league infield much more frequently than a major league one.
    2008-12-17 08:31:33
    19.   Eric Stephen
    Mmmm....sausage.

    Speaking of food, I got up at 5am this morning to make chili verde for a holiday potluck at work. The crock pot is on in the office next to me, and is making the office smell really good.

    2008-12-17 08:36:31
    20.   MollyKnight
    I thought he was supposed to make a decision by Tuesday.

    It's now Wednesday!

    2008-12-17 08:39:11
    21.   Eric Stephen
    20
    Plus, Furcal's agent is also K-Rod's agent, and K-Rod's press conference is today, so I wonder if Paul Kinzer will be too busy to move forward with the Furcal deal.
    2008-12-17 08:42:26
    22.   DemRmyBums
    16 As was mentioned earlier a small sample size is not good for providing sound analysis. I can remember Koufax's first 4 years when he was on the Brooklyn roster but seldom got to pitch due to Brooklyn/LA being in the race for the NL title and a certain manager's predilection for proven ability. I am not saying that any specific pitcher mentioned will provide what we need this year; however, I believe that the 40 man roster has more that enough talent to provide us with an excellent opportunity to win the NL West without resorting to Free Agents or Trades to provide that missing element.
    2008-12-17 08:42:53
    23.   Kevin Lewis
    20

    I feel deceived

    2008-12-17 08:43:06
    24.   CajunDodger
    21
    Are Arn Tellem and Kinzer partners? I read yesterday that Tellem was negotiating with Colletti on the West Coast while Kinzer was dealing with the Braves on the East Coast.
    2008-12-17 08:45:30
    25.   Eric Stephen
    24
    Cool, maybe the Braves won't get dealt with today while Arn Tellem tries to make amends with the city of LA for the Elton Brand deal.
    2008-12-17 08:48:12
    26.   Big Game
    19 Speaking of sausages, I tried out this place on 3rd and Traction for lunch yesterday: http://www.wurstkucherestaurant.com/

    They seem to be getting the kinks out as far as service goes, and its still under construction inside...but the beer selection is excellent and the sausages are quite good. Could be a good post-work/pre-Dodger Stadium stop next season.

    2008-12-17 08:54:36
    27.   Jacob Burch
    26 My girlfriend keeps bugging me to take us there, obsessed with the idea of an Alligator sausage.

    Having Chimay White and Karmeliet on tap doesn't hurt the prospects of us going soon...

    2008-12-17 08:57:23
    28.   Eric Stephen
    26
    Now I have another place I need to try before a Dodger game next season. That place looks great! Thanks for the link.
    2008-12-17 08:57:41
    29.   arborial
    26 wow, that menu looks amazing
    2008-12-17 09:02:11
    30.   Kevin Lewis
    26

    I have heart burn alreay

    2008-12-17 09:03:37
    31.   CajunDodger
    27
    Down in LaPlace, Louisiana, there is an alligator festival with alligator meat pretty much any way you can imagine it. Kinda tastes like a beef/pork mix to me with a little bit of the "gemey-ness" of wild duck.

    I get a lot of my jambalaya and etouffee supplies here, and they sell alligator sausage too: http://tinyurl.com/5w42kx

    2008-12-17 09:06:37
    32.   bablue
    22,
    So you don't want us to sign Furcal, Manny, or any FA SP's?
    2008-12-17 09:09:17
    33.   still bevens
    26 I went there last week. Pretty good stuff. Its small at the moment but supposedly they're expanding the kitchen and dining area soon.
    2008-12-17 09:12:26
    34.   MC Safety
    31 I'm visiting some friends out in Baton Rouge in April, and I can't wait. I hear it's prime time for crawfish.
    2008-12-17 09:16:42
    35.   underdog
    I never thought the movie Teen Wolf would have such a profound effect on someone.

    "I nominate Stylez G. White for best NFL name change of '08"
    http://tinyurl.com/6m988

    2008-12-17 09:18:51
    36.   Bob Timmermann
    35
    Worst tinyurl referral ever.
    2008-12-17 09:20:08
    37.   underdog
    More blahblah about all the blahblah revolving around the Furcalsythe Saga, here from the Atlanta perspective:

    http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2008/12/17/furcal_matter_h.html

    2008-12-17 09:21:30
    38.   underdog
    36 Thanks! Is there a prize?

    Otherwise, I sentence you to watch "Teen Wolf Too" as further punishment.

    2008-12-17 09:22:42
    39.   Marty
    26 That looks like it might be in the old Al's Bar location. I'll have to get over there.

    Also, The Nickel Diner on Main between 5th and 6th is excellent. Amazing pulled pork sandwich. The pastry chef worked for Thomas Keller too.

    2008-12-17 09:23:34
    40.   Bob Timmermann
    The tinyurl in 35 brings up this:

    Page Not Found

    The page you have requested cannot be found.

    2008-12-17 09:24:00
    41.   DemRmyBums
    32 My comment was directed mainly at pitching; however, If we fail to sign Manny, and Furcal. I do not believe we need to hang our heads in gloom. We were competitive with Arizona with Furcal on the DL and before we got Manny. Pitching and defense can keep us in games and give us opprotunities to win. Will we be the best team out there on paper? No. But did the best team on paper going in to spring training win last year?
    2008-12-17 09:24:04
    42.   Big Game
    [33, et al] They actually have a full bar set up that theyre working on. A really nice wood bar with some more taps. They seemed a bit overwhelmed with the lunch rush when I was there, so be patient with the service if/when you try it out.
    2008-12-17 09:25:05
    43.   underdog
    Hey, someone's stealing my metaphor! (Not that it was particularly ingenious in the first place.)

    (From Buster Olney:)
    >>One official involved in the Rafael Furcal negotiations drew this comparison. "First, Furcal was dating the A's," the official said. "Then, on Monday night, he got engaged to the Braves. And now, the ex-husband -- the Dodgers -- has come back into the picture."<<

    2008-12-17 09:26:45
    44.   underdog
    40 Ahhh, whoops..I see. Hmm, I think that's a Yahoo problem. Some of their URLs have an odd structure which seems to break when TinyURL'd.

    At any rate, it's really not worth revisiting but it's on MJD's Shutdown Corner blog on Yahoo Sports, if anyone cares.

    2008-12-17 09:36:48
    45.   Jacob Burch
    44 Ah, the pang of the scarlet letter!

    http://tinyurl.com/6m988a

    2008-12-17 09:38:43
    46.   CajunDodger
    34
    That is my absolutely favorite thing about Louisiana and the thing that I miss most since coming out here.

    About 50 of us used to chip in $40 apiece and have this guy come in and boil them for us in a special rig he had. It was a 500 gallon pot he made from thin-walled refinery pipe. He had it suspended from two cranes mounted on a car trailer with the largest gas burner under it I ever saw (it was the size of a car hood).

    He would boil them for us in 750 pound batches.

    2008-12-17 09:40:31
    47.   Jacob Burch
    I get to beat Tripon!

    11:35am: Yahoo's Tim Brown: Furcal is "nearing an agreement with the Dodgers."

    From MLBTR.

    Here we go again!

    2008-12-17 09:42:48
    48.   Bob Timmermann
    If it's from MLBTR, it's like gospel. It's like the Ten Commandments. It's carved in stone.
    2008-12-17 09:43:09
    49.   ToyCannon
    43
    The Braves are the smart 1st husband who wanted his wife back and can't remember why they let her go in the 1st place. The Dodgers are the 2nd husband who was having 2nd thoughts about letting her go even though they knew about her problems. The A's had an excellent personality but since when does that get it done.
    2008-12-17 09:43:49
    50.   Eric Stephen
    48
    I present to you these 15...[drops a tablet]...10 commandments!
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-12-17 09:43:50
    51.   Lexinthedena
    26 I am there!

    Furcal's back situation has me feeling like Russel Crowe after the seizure scene in 'Romper Stomper'.

    I want to see Hu/DeJesus personally.

    2008-12-17 09:44:03
    52.   jujibee
    Some good news from a Jason Stark interview on ESPN radio. The Nationals will go hard after Dunn and O-Dog if they fail to sign Texiera. Now we just have to hope that Tex makes his mind up while the Furcal negociations are still in progress. The last thing I want for Christmas is another lost draft pick for another mediocre veteran, and I can see Ned panic at the thought of not having a SS, should Furcal sign with the Braves, and throw a 2 year 22 million deal at Hudson. Hurry up and sign with the Red Sox already Tex.
    2008-12-17 09:47:14
    53.   Eric Stephen
    52
    Hudson has never played SS in either the majors or minors.
    2008-12-17 09:48:05
    54.   Tripon
    Its not Hudson you have to worry about, its Orlando Cabrera.
    2008-12-17 09:49:32
    55.   Lexinthedena
    Cabrera is such a Neddy player too.

    I'm even MORE worried about an Omar Vizquel signing.

    2008-12-17 09:49:42
    56.   CajunDodger
    47
    The way things are going with this saga, ere is the coming press release from the Yankees:

    "The Yankees today came to terms with Rafael Furcal on a 4 year $70 million contract. They then took advantage of the Dodgers ensuing desperation by trading them Derek Jeter and Melky Cabrera for a package that included Corey Wade, Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, Ramon Troncoso, and Andrew Lambo."

    2008-12-17 09:50:33
    57.   dzzrtRatt
    Is it fair to say that a healthy Furcal would be the top free agent on the market this offseason? Bigger bucks than Manny, Tex or CC?
    2008-12-17 09:50:49
    58.   underdog
    The Dodgers signed Tony Orlando and Dawn today...

    Oh never mind.

    As for the Furcal news, I believe it when it's signed, preferably in blood, and then that parchment is sealed in wax and sent by horseback to the commissioner's office. (Although Tim Brown is usually more accurate than some of the other guys...)

    2008-12-17 09:51:26
    59.   Jacob Burch
    48 Not that I was actually putting my own faith in the argument--just some people were looking for something to lick their chops on.

    Although you may just be upset with me as I almost steered a conversation about Apple computers into A University To Not Be Named In Indiana. Luckily, IJ went with IU, and any mention was avoided.

    2008-12-17 09:52:05
    60.   underdog
    55 Well then all the more reason to root for the Furcal signing. It's not just what he represents, it's what he PREVENTS.

    Fingers crossed..

    If this goes through, the man is gonna receive his share of boos in Atlanta. But who cares -- they still do the Tomahawk Chop there, too.

    2008-12-17 09:52:29
    61.   Gilberto Reyes
    "Breaking news" from Yahoo sports Tim Brown...

    According to sources familiar with the negotiations, talks between team owner Frank McCourt, general manager Ned Colletti and agent Arn Tellem progressed to the point both sides believed a deal would be struck.

    The Dodgers' offer had been at two years with an option for a third. They improved their original offer in the last 24 hours, according to a source, though it is unknown if they guaranteed the third year or increased the contract's average annual value.

    2008-12-17 09:52:40
    62.   Jacob Burch
    57 Sort of interesting to think what kind of deal Furcal would have gotten had he kept healthy in 2008 and held at least somewhat pace with his early numbers.
    2008-12-17 09:53:13
    63.   Lexinthedena
    60 ...and that is why my heart will never bleed for the Stonewall Braves.
    2008-12-17 09:54:39
    64.   underdog
    Poor Gilberto, so close and yet so far. ;-)
    2008-12-17 09:57:00
    65.   silverwidow
    I am knocking on wood, right now:

    Furcal SS
    Ethier LF
    Martin C
    Loney 1B
    Kemp RF
    Blake 3B
    DeWitt 2B
    Jones CF

    This is decent.

    2008-12-17 09:58:18
    66.   underdog
    Can the Dodgers also afford to re-sign Manny if they sign Furcal? I feel they can. Then they bring in one more pitcher on a short term contract. And they're done.
    2008-12-17 10:00:26
    67.   DemRmyBums
    65 Only if Jones can make contact.
    2008-12-17 10:01:09
    68.   Tripon
    Joel Sherman learned from Kinzer that the Dodgers are in the lead, having matched the Braves' three-year, $30MM offer with a vesting option. Paul Kinzer told Sherman the idea of switching to second base for the Braves gave Furcal pause.

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/12172008/sports/moresports/dodgers_take_lead_for_furcal_144643.htm

    2008-12-17 10:01:50
    69.   fanerman
    Well I don't seem to be food poisoned at least.
    2008-12-17 10:04:32
    70.   silverwidow
    68 The agent says a decision will be made today.

    It's looking good!

    2008-12-17 10:05:20
    71.   DemRmyBums
    If we manage to sign Furcal and Manny we should (on paper) win the West again. One point is that we could use HU to give Furcal a rest late in a ball game while improving our defense. I don't think we need a free agent pitcher; however, management will probably sign someone Johnson/Wolf...
    2008-12-17 10:05:26
    72.   fanerman
    What's a vesting option?
    2008-12-17 10:05:47
    73.   Eric Stephen
    57
    Is it fair to say that a healthy Furcal would be the top free agent on the market this offseason? Bigger bucks than Manny, Tex or CC?

    I think a healthy Furcal would still be a solid 3rd behind Tex and Manny, with a chance to edge Manny's total contract value. Tex is going to get a mega-deal, probably at least 8/160. The best Furcal could have received would probably be something like 6/90 or something like that.

    2008-12-17 10:06:19
    74.   Eric Stephen
    72
    If you accumulate a certain number of games or PAs over a certain time period, the option year becomes guaranteed.
    2008-12-17 10:06:37
    75.   MC Safety
    46 Wow. That's a lot of crawfish. I guess everything really is bigger in the south. Or is that Texas?
    2008-12-17 10:07:52
    76.   bferb
    As much as I have hoped to have Furcal back, I still think I would rather have Manny and Hu/DeJesus than Furcal and Pierre/Jones. Furcal + Manny would certainly be great on paper for us.
    2008-12-17 10:07:54
    77.   Bluebleeder87
    My arteries are a bit intimadated by the diner comments...
    2008-12-17 10:08:22
    78.   bablue
    41,
    Well, I certainly would be disappointed. If we don't sign Furcal or Manny we won't just play the kids we'll sign Cabrera/Garland/Hoffman and guys like that. But fortunately, it sounds like we got Furcal!! :)

    57,
    I think you may be joking but obviously Furcal would have goten nowhere near the contracts of CC and Tex even if he had stayed healthy because he is not close to as good as they are. He is also older than both of them by a few years.

    2008-12-17 10:08:50
    79.   Eric Stephen
    72 ,74
    For instance, Kerry Wood's contract with the Indians is 2/$20.5m, with a vesting $11m option for 2011. If Wood has 55 games finished in either 2009 or 2010, the $11m option for 2011 becomes guaranteed.
    2008-12-17 10:09:02
    80.   fanerman
    73 Thanks.
    2008-12-17 10:10:06
    81.   Eric Stephen
    73
    For some reason, I thought you were only talking position players in 57 . I glossed over the CC reference.
    2008-12-17 10:10:09
    82.   JoeyP
    I really hope Ned doesnt guarantee Furcal a 3rd year.

    2yrs is fine.
    But DeJesus is the SS of the future, and Furcal's either not been good or hurt the last 2/3 years.

    2008-12-17 10:10:13
    83.   silverwidow
    Furcal brings lots of positives if he signs, a few being:

    *No Cabrera = keep our 1st rounder
    *No Pierre = Torre won't feel the need to use him

    2008-12-17 10:11:21
    84.   natepurcell
    let this end!
    2008-12-17 10:11:52
    85.   silverwidow
    82 DeWitt vs. DeJesus for rights to 2B.

    I have no problem with that.

    2008-12-17 10:12:08
    86.   old dodger fan
    I hate to be such a skeptic but does anyone think that Raffy might have failed the Braves physical and the Braves agreed to quietly back away and give him a shot at signing with the Dodgers?
    2008-12-17 10:12:21
    88.   regfairfield
    If Ivan DeJesus is as good as Furcal, it's a good problem to have.

    Hell, if Furcal is healthy for all three of those years, it's a good problem to have.

    2008-12-17 10:12:50
    89.   Bob Timmermann
    72
    It's a way of buying clothes now. You buy the jacket and pants and then for an additional five dollars, you can either buy a vest or get free alterations.
    2008-12-17 10:13:18
    90.   Eric Stephen
    86
    Not a chance. Not even D4P is that skeptical.

    OK, maybe he is.

    2008-12-17 10:14:28
    91.   Eric Stephen
    89
    The Ohio State University, on the other hand, guarantees all vests for their coaches.
    2008-12-17 10:14:40
    92.   fanerman
    89 Thanks for clarifying.
    2008-12-17 10:14:57
    93.   Jacob Burch
    82 We were going to get a middle infield option somehow, and it wasn't going to be Furcal for two years. I'd take Furcal @ 3 (with DeJesus being a future 2B in all likelyhood anyhow) over O-Cab for....anything.

    The Infield could be DeWitt-Furcal-DeJesus-First baseman not to be named, with CBlake doing OF or super-utility duties.

    2008-12-17 10:15:13
    94.   bferb
    86 It was reported that the Braves' doctors signed off on his back, so its not too likely he would otherwise fail the physical.
    2008-12-17 10:15:42
    95.   Jacob Burch
    89 91 This has to be the pun of the day combination. Will be hard to beat.
    2008-12-17 10:17:05
    96.   Jon Weisman
    The Flight of the Conchords Season Premiere is live:

    http://tinyurl.com/57djjx

    2008-12-17 10:17:27
    97.   Harold M Johnson
    I believe Furcal always wanted to come back to the Dodgers and I hope he does, but nothing would surprise me. He might sign with the A's for all I know at this point.
    2008-12-17 10:17:44
    98.   underdog
    Bummer, I missed 87, whatever it was. Hope it was juicy!

    I think it's less a physical than it was Furcal's hesitation about possibly having to play 2nd that may have soured him on Atlanta.

    Also, I feel like Casey Blake will only be a starter for a year of the 2 yr contract. Following year I could see DeWitt moving to 3rd and DeJesus or Hu playing 2nd. For now, Hu can be the defensive specialist who spells Furcal, as noted above, and DeJesus can have another year of seasoning.

    This also gives us a leadoff hitter who is not Juan Pierre (or Matt Kemp, who I love but would prefer batting 2, 3 or 5.)

    2008-12-17 10:17:48
    99.   Tripon
    82 Even if Furcal signs for three years, that doesn't block DeJesus because you can switch DeJesus, DeWitt, and Blake around. If anyone is getting screwed over here, its Hu.
    2008-12-17 10:18:36
    100.   underdog
    Or what Jacob said.

    Darnit, I was just getting back to work when Jon had to post the Conchords link. Thanks a lot!

    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-12-17 10:18:43
    101.   OhioBlues12
    94 - Maybe that is what got us to up our offer. I don't think we trust our doctors anymore.
    2008-12-17 10:19:15
    102.   CajunDodger
    Given health (big if), isn't Furcal and Blake for $17M a pretty good bit of negotiation for Nedders? I love the idea of the defense in 2010 with DeWitt/Furcal/DeJesus/Loney.

    I am still a touch concerned with Ethier/Kemp's position on the team with $31M still invested in Pierre and Jones.

    2008-12-17 10:19:53
    103.   GMac In The 909
    Come on, Furcal. Come to the one you love best.
    2008-12-17 10:20:27
    104.   OhioBlues12
    99 - In the short-term I think Hu is the reserver for 2B/SS. I think he will probably give Furcal some considerable rest and split time against lefties with Loretta at 2B.
    2008-12-17 10:21:12
    105.   Tripon
    Also, the Dodgers could trade away Furcal, Blake, Hu, and DeJesus any time that they want.

    ...Well, hopefully not DeJesus, but I think this means that Hu's days as a Dodger are numbered.

    2008-12-17 10:22:30
    106.   Tripon
    104 DeWitt's the primary 2nd baseman, and backup 3rd baseman. I don't think we're going to see Hu play much, even when DeWitt's is starting at 3rd due to Loretta.
    2008-12-17 10:22:49
    107.   Tripon
    Also, no Angel Beorra!
    2008-12-17 10:23:04
    108.   silverwidow
    Hu can spend the entire year in AAA. If he can't mash in 5000 foot altitude, then he probably won't ever hit in the majors.
    2008-12-17 10:23:33
    109.   Disabled List
    It's Day 3 of the Siege on Rafael Furcal. The beleaguered citizens are desperate for their suffering to end. Despite progress reports from the front, morale is low.

    How much longer can they hold out?

    2008-12-17 10:23:35
    110.   Sean P
    93

    His name is Loney... James Loney. Some know him as Wild Bird.

    2008-12-17 10:24:14
    111.   CajunDodger
    105
    The Pirates love Hu and Delwyn Young. I don't have a clue as to what their roster looks like, but if they had any decent pitching to deal, there seems to be a sudden surplus of defensive SS in the Dodger system.
    2008-12-17 10:24:50
    112.   DemRmyBums
    Let us not count our chickens before they are hatched. Neither Furcal nor Manny have signed. If they do we will enhance our offense by filling power and leadoff holes. Kemp could leadoff for us; however, we would be better if he could bat #3 or 4 (but not if we have Pierre as leadoff). We should have more power this year as Either with additional AB should hit 25-30 HR, Kemp with the additional maturity should also hit in that range if not greater. Martin had an off season (I hope) and I would look for between 15-20 HR.
    2008-12-17 10:25:49
    113.   OhioBlues12
    I think Hu is safe for this year, but if he plays well in a reserve role then his value may warrant a trade next offseason. Remember we still have Abreu, who if he returns healthy probably profiles better as utility IFer being a switch hitter.
    2008-12-17 10:25:51
    114.   JoeyP
    Hell, if Furcal is healthy for all three of those years, it's a good problem to have.

    True, but if he's hurt 2/3 years & its another 10 mils sitting there that could be used for something better. Considering the McCourt's financial problems, this is a big issue.

    2008-12-17 10:27:59
    115.   JoeyP
    Given health (big if), isn't Furcal and Blake for $17M a pretty good bit of negotiation for Nedders?

    17 mils a year can buy 1 great player.

    Or Andruw Jones.

    2008-12-17 10:28:33
    116.   Harold M Johnson
    111 Ian Snell is maybe too much to ask for, but I think he'd be a good #4 or #5 starter for the Dodgers.
    2008-12-17 10:29:06
    117.   regfairfield
    But if we're not willing to go more than three years on CC Sabathia, it's not like that 10 million would have gone to anyone useful anyway.
    2008-12-17 10:29:24
    118.   Tripon
    http://tinyurl.com/5wjl3f

    Mets want Lowe, and are trying to clear salary to get him.

    2008-12-17 10:29:48
    119.   Ken Noe
    If I thought the choice was Hu/DeJesus or Raffy @ 3 years, I'd go with the kids. But in Nedworld, the choice is Furcal or Cabrera, so I say welcome home #15, hope you're really healed.

    111 My understanding is that the Bucs are only lukewarm on Hu and Pee Wee, and would demand pitching from us as well.

    2008-12-17 10:30:11
    120.   Jon Weisman
    Same actor play's Mel's husband in FOC and the Baltimore Sun managing editor in The Wire.
    2008-12-17 10:30:12
    121.   Harold M Johnson
    116 Actually, Snell's stats were not as I had remembered them. I take that back.
    2008-12-17 10:30:15
    122.   Big Game
    102 Pierre should be gone by opening day, he's openly asked to be traded. Its just a matter of how much the Dodgers are willing to pay to accommodate his request.
    2008-12-17 10:30:54
    123.   silverwidow
    118 Who is higher ranked: K-Rod or Lowe?

    I want the Mets' 1st rounder.

    2008-12-17 10:31:25
    124.   underdog
    118 Crud, if that happened Dodgers wouldn't get a #1 pick for Lowe. Stupid NY teams...

    --

    I'd do Snell for Hu and Young in a heartbeat, much as I like the latter two. Don't think the Pirates would, though.

    2008-12-17 10:31:27
    125.   Branch Rickey
    It would be interesting to take a poll of what DTers think of a move leading up to it's happening and after it happens. That would be good to know later on. There seems to be consensus (including the likes of Simers) that we should sign Furcal. But if he misses the next three years with a bad back and were hamstrung, won't everybody (especially Simers) call Colletti a moron for signing a guy with a history of back problems to a 3 year deal? How many people were against the Schmidt or Jones signings when they happened? For the record, I vote to sign him too. But I won't call anyone stupid if it doesn't work out. I'll think Colletti is stupid for other reasons.
    2008-12-17 10:31:46
    126.   Bob Timmermann
    Jon with a rare apostrophe error there.
    2008-12-17 10:33:25
    127.   regfairfield
    I actually looked up the Schimdt thing a while back. One person here was against it. In my defense, I've never been upset with the Schmidt signing, at least until that rotator cuff info came out a few years ago.
    2008-12-17 10:34:13
    128.   Tripon
    122 Sounds like the Dodgers forgot that Juan Pierre even exists. Its going to be awkward when Spring Training arrives, and Juan Pierre's still a Dodger.
    2008-12-17 10:35:29
    129.   Tripon
    Also, doesn't JP have a full no trade clause?
    2008-12-17 10:36:08
    130.   Eric Stephen
    123
    K-Rod is ranked higher than Lowe by a pretty wide margin (87.196 to 75.43). Full list is here:

    http://tinyurl.com/64jq53

    2008-12-17 10:36:35
    131.   OhioBlues12
    129 - He has a limited no trade clause but he would surely waive it considering he doesn't figure to get much playing time.
    2008-12-17 10:36:41
    132.   Jon Weisman
    126 - I don't even know how that happened.

    127 - I expressed reservations about Schmidt.

    "Schmidt is a talented pitcher, but he is surely expensive - that projected salary is almost twice what Derek Lowe makes - and does not come without risk. Turning 34 in January with nearly 2,000 career innings, Schmidt in 2006 saw his strikeout rate drop to its lowest point since 2000."

    http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/565499.html

    2008-12-17 10:37:00
    133.   Ken Noe
    125 I was opposed to more than two years for Furcal until I read that Ned was talking to Orlando Cabrera's agent. So if the back goes, my take will be "we should've gone with the kids." I'll probably add something about Ned blinking again under pressure. But again, if Furcal goes back on the DL, Ned's biggest problem won't be DT, but rather Mrs. McCourt.
    2008-12-17 10:38:46
    134.   Jon Weisman
    125 - I don't see a consensus that we should sign Furcal, considering that I (among others) am basically lining up it unless it's a bargain contract.

    And plenty of people have, at least until last week, let Colletti off the hook for Schmidt and Jones.

    2008-12-17 10:38:54
    135.   silverwidow
    130 Thanks, I was looking for that list!
    2008-12-17 10:39:21
    136.   Jacob Burch
    129 No, and even if he did, he doesn't want to be here if he's on the bench.

    123 As Underdog answered, K-Rod is. Ranking of possibly-effecting free agents:

    CC > Manny > Burnett > K-Rod > OCab > Lowe

    2008-12-17 10:39:37
    137.   JoeyP
    Furcal at 2yrs - Sure.
    Furcal 3yrs - No.

    If Furcal keeps the team financially from signing Manny/Burrell/Abreu, also No.

    2008-12-17 10:40:07
    138.   Gilberto Reyes
    122 If they don't sign Manny and Andruw still has mental problems and can't make contact in Spring Training, can they really afford to trade Pierre while paying most of his salary?
    2008-12-17 10:41:59
    139.   DemRmyBums
    128 Juan Pierre's status with the Dodgers is not likely to change because management wants his leadoff capabilities even if they are only in reserve, besides no one is apparently willing to take on his salary or give us anything of value in return. Ditto for Jones.
    2008-12-17 10:42:35
    140.   Tripon
    138 Yes, if you believe the drop off from JP as a 4th outfielder to Repko/Young as a 4th Outfielder is minimal. You might also get something useful for a trade of JP's services such as pitching or prospects.
    2008-12-17 10:42:58
    141.   Branch Rickey
    134 So given that it certainly appears that signing him now means at least 3 years and probably a vesting option for a fourth, will you be disappointed if we sign him? It's always tough as a fan because, sure, I like Furcal and it's not my money. There's no immediate pain to the fan like there is in a trade. But certainly as the studious fans we are, we realize that money now means less money later for other shiny free agents.
    2008-12-17 10:43:32
    142.   Eric Stephen
    135
    That list was elusive for quite some time.

    138
    I don't think Pierre gets traded unless Manny is signed.

    2008-12-17 10:44:35
    143.   Jon Weisman
    141 - You know, I'll be excited if Furcal comes back, but I won't be optimistic he'll stay healthy.
    2008-12-17 10:45:59
    144.   Jacob Burch
    141 As has been said throughout here, I think ideally we wouldn't get Furcal for 3+1, we'd throw the kids out there and sign Manny.

    Realistically, Ned has more-or-less said the plan is to get another starter-worthy Middle infielder--and that it has to be done before any pie-in-the-sky Manny deal. Of presently feasible solutions (trade for a Wilson-type, Sign OCab, Sign Furcal), most of us will take the latter.

    2008-12-17 10:46:19
    145.   Big Game
    138 Yes. There are free agent outfielders available, outside of Manny, that would be a significant upgrade over Pierre.
    2008-12-17 10:48:04
    146.   underdog
    Excluding any possible deals for Furcal or Manny, anyone know how much money is off the books after the 09 season? i.e., what the payroll would be if things stayed as they are right now?

    Because I think they can afford Manny and Furcal.

    2008-12-17 10:51:13
    147.   OhioBlues12
    I think if they are ready to make this deal for Furcal then they do it with the thought that they can sign Manny. I don't think that McCourt would approve of the deal if it precluded the team from bringing Manny back.
    2008-12-17 10:51:37
    148.   Tripon
    146 I think we cleared about $40 million in contracts with Nomar, Kent, Lowe, Furcal.

    We resigned Blake and Loretta for about 7 million this year, assuming that we're going to have a similar budget for 09. I'd say the Dodgers have around 30 million left to spend.

    2008-12-17 10:51:52
    149.   Eric Stephen
    146
    A couple of months back, I think I estimated the 2010 payroll at something like $60-65 million, including all arb raises. Add in Blake, Furcal & Manny, and it's likely $95-100m, and that's without factoring in any contract for a new starting pitcher (assuming one is signed this offseason).
    2008-12-17 10:54:58
    150.   silverwidow
    146 $27M in pure salary to Jones & Schmidt. But they also have bonuses still due after 2009.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2008-12-17 10:55:15
    151.   Tripon
    Do teams and players look at super 2 cases differently than regular year 3 players?
    2008-12-17 10:55:54
    152.   underdog
    Thanks. That's about what I figured. I think having an LA payroll 5 million under 100 million is pretty decent/fair, even in today's wintry economic climate. Can't wait for TV rights to revert to McCourt/ownership though.
    2008-12-17 10:56:18
    153.   Eric Stephen
    151
    It's just a different set of comps. They are mostly compared to other players in their service time group.
    2008-12-17 10:57:25
    154.   cargill06
    137 I wonder why Dunn gets no love here? He is far superior offensively to those guys listed (except Manny), he's actually a decent baserunner, and he's the better of those fielder (according to UZR).

    I wonder if Furcal is a good fielder? +/- says yes, UZR says no.

    2008-12-17 10:57:48
    155.   Howard Fox
    152 yes, after they get those rights, they can increase the payroll to 95M
    2008-12-17 10:59:12
    156.   silverwidow
    154 My eyes tell me he has an excellent artm.
    2008-12-17 10:59:46
    157.   Jacob Burch
    154 It's probably an unstated understanding that Ned would never go for someone like Dunn. I personally don't feel the Dodgers will go for an outfielder not named Manny Ramirez, but to each their own.
    2008-12-17 11:00:02
    158.   underdog
    This is just me, but I don't trust UZR all that much.
    2008-12-17 11:08:51
    159.   Daniel Zappala
    This is just too funny:

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jpdFAJerfWVRAUxSw26hlniYnp0gD954KI500

    Rafael Furcal's agent said the shortstop was likely to decide Wednesday whether to sign with the Atlanta Braves or the Los Angeles Dodgers.

    Paul Kinzer had said Tuesday that Furcal was close to accepting the Braves' offer.

    "They know we didn't have a signed contract, that we didn't have even a verbal agreement. We had, `Things look very good and Raffy's going to sleep on it,'" Kinzer said after a news conference for another client, Francisco Rodriguez.

    So now he's going to decide today. It sounds like Furcal is going to take a nap this afternoon, because he's still going to sleep on it.

    2008-12-17 11:08:57
    160.   Tripon
    http://tinyurl.com/Simers

    Simers has another article on the Dodgers.

    2008-12-17 11:10:27
    161.   Eric Stephen
    I found my somewhat outdated salary estimate for 2010 (it was back in February), so here is an attempt at a revision. Lots of assumptions here, but it's a framework to look at the future (the future, Conan?):

    Starters
    C - Martin - $8m (4th year; 2nd year arb)
    1B - Loney - $3.5m (1st year arb)
    2B - DeWitt - $425k (2nd year)
    SS - Furcal - $10m (estimated)
    3B - Blake - $6m
    LF - Manny - $22.5m (estimated)
    CF - Kemp - $3.5m (1st year arb)
    RF - Ethier - $5m (4th year; 2nd year arb)
    Total Starters - $58.925m

    Bench
    OF - Delwyn Young - $500k
    OF - Pierre - $10m (even if he's gone most of this salary will be paid)
    C - John Q. Backstop - $1m
    1B - Mark Sweeney Type - $1m
    IF - Abreu - $500k (3rd year)
    IF - Hu - $400k (2nd year)
    Total Bench - $13.4m

    Starting Pitching
    Billingsley - $4m (1st year arb)
    Kuroda - $13m
    Kershaw - $425k (2nd year)
    McDonald - $400k (2nd year)
    Wile E. Veteran - $10m
    Total Starting Pitching - $27.825m

    Bullpen
    Broxton - $4m (2nd year arb)
    Kuo - $2m (1st year arb)
    Wade - $500k (2nd year -- he will be Super Two in 2011)
    Troncoso - $425k (2nd year)
    Elbert - $500k (2nd year)
    Seanez Type - $1m
    Total Bullpen - $8.425m

    Detritus
    Nomar - $1.25m (part of deferred signing bonus)
    Total Detritus - $1.25m

    Total 2010 Payroll (estimated) - $109.825m

    I'm sure I missed something, but that's a reasonable estimate of 2010.

    2008-12-17 11:11:06
    162.   Jacob Burch
    159 After Furcal and Peavy, Atlanta cannot be happy with southern California right now.
    2008-12-17 11:11:58
    163.   Jacob Burch
    161 I cannot believe you're in favor of signing John Q. What a defensive liability.
    2008-12-17 11:13:28
    164.   ToyCannon
    If you want to look at a salary table for 2009 you can use this which was provided by Mike Worozbyt
    http://www.truebluela.com/2008/11/7/655683/2009-plan

    This was before we signed anyone so you can start plugging in Loretta/Blake and maybe even Rafy.

    2008-12-17 11:13:38
    165.   Eric Stephen
    163
    At least now he will be able to afford his son's operation without going to prison.
    2008-12-17 11:15:20
    166.   Jacob Burch
    165 Bob took the daily pun title, and you get the horrible allusion award. Congrats!
    2008-12-17 11:16:45
    167.   Bleacher Seats
    Assuming we get Furcal, I still think we should go after Tex and use Hu and Loney as trade bait for a #1 pitcher (Peavy). Or keep Loney and convert him to LF.
    2008-12-17 11:18:01
    168.   silverwidow
    161 Detritus:

    Jones - $5M Bonus
    Schmidt - $2.625M (estimate) Bonus

    2008-12-17 11:18:13
    170.   Eric Stephen
    166
    Sweet. I'll clear off space on my mantle right next to my "Most Awkward Yelling At a Guy You Didn't Know Was Deaf" trophy from 1998.
    2008-12-17 11:18:21
    171.   Indiana Jon
    154 Don't say no love for Dunn. I have been in favor of signing Dunn if we don't get Manny all off season. However, I don't believe the Dodgers will agree with me, as they won't agree with me on signing Sheets and letting Furcal move on.
    2008-12-17 11:19:14
    172.   silverwidow
    167 What are the Padres going to do with Loney, considering they have a superior Adrian Gonzalez?
    2008-12-17 11:19:38
    173.   Tripon
    Hu and Loney isn't going to get a pitcher of Peavy's caliber. Is Adrian Gonzalez swish cheese or something? If he didn't play in Petco park for half of his games, he'd be known as one of the top 5 baseman in baseball.
    2008-12-17 11:19:39
    174.   Eric Stephen
    168
    Thanks; I always forget those. I'm sure they're in my Excel file at home.
    2008-12-17 11:20:14
    175.   Bleacher Seats
    172 - Three way trade - Ned can use his imagination.
    2008-12-17 11:23:26
    176.   kinbote
    Wake up Furky, I think I've got something to say to you
    It's mid-December and I really should be back at work
    I know you keep us amused
    But I feel I'm being used
    Oh Furky, I couldn't have tried any more
    You stole my time and that's what really hurts . . .
    2008-12-17 11:23:46
    177.   Daniel Zappala
    Maybe John Q. Backstop can get Furcal's back to stop hurting.
    2008-12-17 11:24:02
    178.   Tripon
    Ned imagination always leads him to throw more money and lesser years at players. Ned's imagination sucks.
    2008-12-17 11:24:46
    179.   Daniel Zappala
    We also need to make sure Wiley E. Veteran never pitches against the Roadrunner. He gets the best of him every time!
    2008-12-17 11:25:02
    180.   ToyCannon
    It got us Manny and Magic during our two playoff treks.
    2008-12-17 11:25:37
    181.   Gilberto Reyes
    167 Convert Loney to LF? Do you remember the last time Wild Bird tried to play outfield? He nearly cracked his head open on the right field scoreboard at the Ravine.
    2008-12-17 11:26:50
    182.   underdog
    Yet another reason to have AJ Ellis be o ur backup backstop next year. He'd be a lot cheaper, and likely better, than most veteran-y catchers out there, thus saving more payroll.
    2008-12-17 11:27:31
    183.   underdog
    179 Line-ups courtesy of the Acme Corporation.
    2008-12-17 11:28:13
    184.   old dodger fan
    181 That's why we need to make him a LFer. Keep him out of RF.
    2008-12-17 11:29:13
    185.   Tripon
    182 He wouldn't be better than Danny Ardoin who the dodgers still control, and hasn't reached enough MLB service to reach arbitration yet.
    2008-12-17 11:30:39
    186.   tjdub
    What defensive alignment would be better, Dunn in LF, Loney at 1B, or the opposite?
    2008-12-17 11:30:46
    187.   Jacob Burch
    I sent my girlfriend a link to this thread regarding the sausage conversation, asking her to read #26. She replied with "I get 48 triangles..."

    That ad foils me again!

    2008-12-17 11:35:45
    188.   bferb
    With all of this Furcal talk, I can't help but think of what baseball would be like if the contracts were structured like the NFL and salaries weren't guaranteed. What a holiday season it would be if we could simply cut Druw and JP HA!
    2008-12-17 11:37:11
    189.   Tripon
    188 Jamie McCourt. Is that you?
    2008-12-17 11:40:03
    190.   Gilberto Reyes
    186 Keep Dunn in the outfield. I still remember how he botched that bunt play while playing first base at Dodger stadium in late September.
    2008-12-17 11:41:22
    191.   bhsportsguy
    188 If that were the case, free agents would get huge signing bonuses knowing that they would probably not be here for the length of the deal.

    Of course, the NFL is heading towards a labor showdown in 2010 and this off-season could be very interesting if they play it without a CBA.

    2008-12-17 11:42:02
    192.   OhioBlues12
    I am of the opinion that Dunn is terrible at any position that requires him to use a glove.
    2008-12-17 11:42:38
    193.   Bluebleeder87
    There are to many IF'S about Furcal (IMO):

    What if his back doesn't hold up.
    What if he is injured the entire leght (sp) of the contract.
    What if he is damaged goods.
    What if he is to old to come back after back sergury &
    playing a premium position.

    ______

    What if's are little red flags to me...

    2008-12-17 11:44:34
    194.   Eric Stephen
    193
    If those things happen, we can plug in DeHusus and the salary that would have gone to Orlando Cabrera would instead go to Furcal, and we still have our 2009 1st round pick.
    2008-12-17 11:44:57
    195.   Jacob Burch
    193 That seems to just be one big if, however. If he's healthy, he's healthy, and all get answered.

    Not to say it's not a big if, but it does sound singular.

    2008-12-17 11:46:22
    196.   underdog
    190 You thought that was bad? You should see him play the outfield. Pass.

    185 Ah, for some reason I thought he was a free agent. Well, I don't think they're all that beholden to him, he'll probably still have to battle for that backup spot and I recall Ned saying Ellis would get a look next year. Nothing against Ardoin, though.

    2008-12-17 11:47:34
    197.   Tripon
    191 I do the trade off. Teams are already signing players to huge guaranteed contracts in baseball. Even the largest contracts in football has at most $30 million guaranteed money in it.
    2008-12-17 11:48:16
    198.   Bluebleeder87
    194

    Oh ok

    2008-12-17 11:48:17
    199.   kinbote
    193 Look on the bright side. He's not signed yet.
    2008-12-17 11:49:13
    200.   Tripon
    196 Yeah, you can't really go wrong with either. Still, it was silly of the Dodgers to sign a guy like Gary Bennett when they already have Ellis and Ardoin in the system. Was it just a case of Ned Coletti not knowing he had back up catchers in the system already?
    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2008-12-17 11:49:56
    201.   kinbote
    196 What about Andruw for back-up catcher?
    2008-12-17 11:50:20
    202.   Tripon
    194 Its looking more and more likely we're keeping our first rounder. The Dodgers are avoiding the most obvious traps so far. (Cabrera, and Hudson)
    2008-12-17 11:52:17
    203.   Big Game
    193 What if he stays healthy?
    What if he hits 30 HRs?

    What if's can go both ways.

    2008-12-17 11:53:31
    204.   bhsportsguy
    This is why Joe Torre does not do trade shows.

    From Baseball Prospectus, the rest is premium content.

    The speed at which baseball news travels and creates the potential for controversy never ceases to amaze. Even comments made at an agricultural trade show in North Dakota can generate headlines in a matter of moments.

    Twins manager Ron Gardenhire was making a public appearance at a show in Fargo earlier this month when he was asked how he planned to fit four outfielders into three starting spots next season. He gave a typically candid answer, saying that he would prefer to have a starting outfield of Michael Cuddyer, Carlos Gomez, and Denard Span, which would leave Delmon Young as the odd man out. "Those three guys need to play every day," Gardenhire said. "Delmon is in the mix. He's a helluva player, a helluva talent, but to me, those three guys should be your outfield, and you go from there." The remarks were dutifully reported by the Fargo Forum, and off they went.

    2008-12-17 11:53:59
    205.   fanerman
    137 Gotta agree there.
    2008-12-17 11:54:50
    206.   underdog
    200 - Probably. Signing Gary Bennett to do anything involving throwing and catching was pretty silly in general.
    2008-12-17 11:55:15
    207.   madmac
    170 and now you can also add "post that had me laughing the loudest"
    2008-12-17 11:59:53
    208.   Big Game
    204 Someone's gettin' a Delmon
    2008-12-17 12:08:42
    209.   Tripon
    Unfortunately, this time aloha means goodbye. I got some indication that this was coming during my time in Las Vegas, but today the hammer finally came down as the general managers voted to consolidate off-season leagues to Arizona, thus ending the three-year return of the Hawaiian League.

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1130

    2008-12-17 12:14:59
    210.   MollyKnight
    Although, Furcal continues to be Dodger Thoughts' top priority.
    2008-12-17 12:15:14
    211.   Tripon
    http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2008/12/15/they-still-wont-let-andy-play/

    NCAA vs. baseball player over the role of 'advisers'. If Andy Oliver wins the case, this is going to have some big spillover to the sports with more stringent regulations over hiring agents/declaring for the drafts such as college football and college basketball.

    2008-12-17 12:15:17
    212.   Eric Enders
    That stinks. I really enjoyed the couple of Hawaiian League games I went to. Maybe they can keep it going as a developmental league for the Japanese pro leagues (who already comprised a certain percentage of the players anyway).
    2008-12-17 12:17:10
    213.   Eric Enders
    208 Why not us? I mean, I guess we wouldn't be able to play him either, but if somebody has an asset like that and they don't value it, well, why not go after it? Somebody's gotta play when Manny's knees act up and somebody's probably gotta take Ethier's place against lefties.
    2008-12-17 12:19:19
    214.   Jon Weisman
    210 - I'm being held hostage by my headlines.
    2008-12-17 12:22:30
    215.   Eric Enders
    That sentence has got a certain Norma Desmond quality to it.
    2008-12-17 12:26:09
    216.   Tripon
    Reed (Los Angeles): What is the current state of the Dodgers farm system? They've graduated many players to the big leagues in the past few years so do they have anything left?

    SportsNation Aaron Fitt: It's awfully thin -- there's a precipitous dropoff after about No. 6. That's not such a bad thing -- I'd rather have a bevy of young talent in the majors than a highly ranked farm system. But wasting high picks on guys like Preston Mattingly and Luke Hochever doesn't help.

    2008-12-17 12:28:47
    217.   old dodger fan
    213
    Q:Why not us?
    A: Jones and Pierre
    2008-12-17 12:31:31
    218.   Tripon
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/17/SP3814P40A.DTL

    A's are staying with Crosby.

    2008-12-17 12:45:09
    219.   Disabled List
    217 The full weight of Ned's bungling in offseasons past is truly coming back to haunt us now.
    2008-12-17 12:52:50
    220.   68elcamino427
    Stay'in warm by the Hot Stove on a stormy day.

    Here's a suggestion for a pool:

    On what day will Scott Boras allow Manny Ramirez to sign his contract?

    I'm going to guess Jan.15, 2009

    2008-12-17 13:07:11
    221.   Disabled List
    http://tinyurl.com/5jmclg

    This article in the NY Daily News has a couple of unnamed "baseball officials" speculating that the Yankees are going to be "going hard" for Manny. $25 million for 2 or 3 years are the numbers they toss around.

    The accompanying web poll is kinda funny in its banality:

    Should the Yankees sign Manny Ramirez?

    32% - Yes, they need someone who is a winner
    16% - No, Manny being Manny is not worth it
    6% - If they can get him for cheap
    12% - It depends on the years, not the money
    34% - Forget Manny, get Mark Teixeira

    2008-12-17 13:29:33
    222.   Bluebleeder87
    The delay by Furcal tells me he is leaning heavily towards the Dodgers man.
    2008-12-17 13:31:24
    223.   LAT
    With all the drama surrounding Manny and the $250M the Yanks have already spent this off season, I cannot see them signing him.
    Of course, this makes it a lock that it will happen.
    2008-12-17 13:32:24
    224.   MC Safety
    Ding Ding Ding!

    The award for Best Thread Killing Comment goes to 221 !

    Congratulations, Disabled List!

    2008-12-17 13:34:26
    225.   Sean P
    216

    I wouldn't call a #40 pick for Hochevar a waste. His talent made him worth taking a shot, and we were very close.

    Thanks for that Boras, btw, and for all that you have done to try to ruin the game of baseball.

    2008-12-17 13:36:46
    226.   cargill06
    Xei,

    What is the WAR projection for Manny and Dunn next year as a LF? What does that equate to for a dollar value in their contracts?

    2008-12-17 13:37:25
    227.   Tripon
    225 Skipping Horchever allowed us to pick Clayton Kershaw.
    2008-12-17 13:40:08
    228.   Ken Noe
    There was something in the air that night
    You gave me fright, Orlando
    Furcal's standing between you and me
    For sanity, Orlando
    Though I hoped that we'd go with Hu
    That I will regret
    If I have to do the same again
    I'll take Furcal, my friend, Orlando
    2008-12-17 13:41:05
    229.   Disabled List
    224 Thank you. I also do bar mitzvahs.
    2008-12-17 13:46:02
    230.   GoBears
    222. I agree. And I don't like it. As I said yesterday, I don't want to see another long-term contract to a guy who spent 2/3 of his last contract too injured to help. The best thing about re-signing Furcal is that it means no Wilson/Cabrera/Vizquel. Hu/DeJesus can fill in when (not if) Furcal is injured.

    The worst thing about it is that that money could be put to smarter use. The Dodgers aren't the Yankees. There IS a budget constraint. We don't know exactly what it is, but tying up big money to guys unlikely to play very much seems a dumb idea.

    If Furcal magically recovers and plays 150 games for 3 years at All-Star level, it will have been a good deal and I will have been wrong. But that's unlikely.

    2008-12-17 13:47:18
    231.   Bluebleeder87
    If we get Furcal, I wonder if the draft class will be any good next year?
    2008-12-17 13:48:05
    232.   Jacob Burch
    230 At a smidge under 10 mil a year, I don't think he has to necessarily be All star every year. Just productive, and he very well could be as good of a bet to do that as any other option.

    I don't necessarily think it's the smartest, shrewdest move, but I'm not sure it's an awful one either.

    2008-12-17 13:51:55
    233.   bhsportsguy
    So who is up for a DT gathering in the So Cal area in January/February before ST starts?
    2008-12-17 13:53:53
    234.   bhsportsguy
    227 As much as I love rehashing that story, I hope this stops before the inevitable HSC/JP thread begins.

    An aside, I apologize to the DT community becasue I failed to ask Jim Tracy last week in Vegas what the heck he was thinking when he moved Jason Phillips to first base.

    2008-12-17 13:54:07
    235.   Jacob Burch
    233 That sounds fun. The fabled poker tournament would have to go in along with another round of Timmermann Trivia.

    Lisa Guerrero has a piece on LAT's blog about a pitcher she and DT readers may be familiar with:
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2008/12/lisa-guerrero-c.html

    2008-12-17 13:56:45
    236.   bhsportsguy
    235 Ah, 2005 memories.
    2008-12-17 13:56:57
    237.   Tangled Up in Blue
    Furcal had the same surgery as my father last year. My father is 75 years old and he is doing really well. Swing dancing, exercising, etc. I really think that Furcal will be healthy going forward. As long as he stays away from Repko I think he will be fine. If not, I will see if my dad can play SS.
    2008-12-17 13:57:50
    238.   bhsportsguy
    236 or the year this blog was more Jacksonville Thoughts than Dodger Thoughts.
    2008-12-17 14:09:19
    239.   LU Dodger
    Foxsports.com is now reporting Furcal to the Dodgers
    2008-12-17 14:10:10
    240.   LU Dodger
    239

    Which of course, we know, means absolutely nothing til a press conference

    2008-12-17 14:12:46
    241.   underdog
    240 Yah, especially since it's Rosenthal who is reporting it. ;-) I'm sure we'll know more officially within next few hours.
    2008-12-17 14:13:47
    242.   oshea2002
    239 - I guess this means Furcal to Atlanta.
    2008-12-17 14:15:27
    243.   LU Dodger
    _Rafael Furcal has finally made up his mind. He's going Hollywood.

    Furcal, the top free-agent shortstop on the open market this year, has decided to sign with the Dodgers, major-league sources say. Furcal had been debating for the last two days between the Dodgers and the Braves.

    Terms of the deal were not yet available.

    On Tuesday, it appeared that Furcal had all but decided to go back to Atlanta, the team for whom he played his first six MLB seasons. The Braves offered a three-year deal worth approximately $30 million, according to major-league sources, and included a vesting option for a fourth year that likely will push the potential value to $40 million.

    The A's are believed to have made the high offer for Furcal — four years guaranteed in the $40 million range, according to major-league sources.

    Furcal, 31, left the Braves for the Dodgers after the 2005 season, signing a three-year, $39 million free-agent contract. The Dodgers had been reluctant to re-sign him long-term due to medical concerns._

    http://tinyurl.com/4a8b6o

    2008-12-17 14:15:34
    244.   Daniel Zappala
    Dear Internet Rumor Mongers:

    I've changed my mind. Furcal is now signing with the Dodgers. According to my sources.

    Yours faithfully,
    KR

    2008-12-17 14:19:58
    245.   Jon Weisman
    Honestly, even if you're not as much of a fascist about sources as I am, it takes some nerve - after all that has happened - to report this as a done deal, while relying on anonymous sources.
    2008-12-17 14:22:25
    246.   Howard Fox
    maybe what it means is that Furcal is heading west, to pick up his things prior to moving to Atlanta
    2008-12-17 14:22:30
    247.   underdog
    Ken Rosenthal exists on that some nerve though, it's his raison d'etre. Which is why he drives me mad, but yet is so popular.
    2008-12-17 14:22:43
    248.   LU Dodger
    245

    With all of Rosenthal's hot stove madness, and the hourly blog he ran during the winter meetings, I think he has made up his mind that he's gonna be "the first" guy, no matter how credible his info is.

    2008-12-17 14:23:32
    249.   JoeyP
    Giving 4yrs to a SS on the wrong side of 30 seems like a gamble.
    2008-12-17 14:23:57
    250.   GoBears
    Somebody needs to start a "Fire Ken Rosenthal" blog. Or, if that's not enough material, then a more general "Auditing the Rumor-Mongers" blog.

    I'm serious. I have no time to do this myself, of course, but I think the internet, like most markets, can be self-correcting. A scoring system for mongers could be developed. At the very least, it might lead the mongers to use more careful language when mongering.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2008-12-17 14:24:05
    251.   MollyKnight
    A four-legged source who is lying on my bed and who wishes to remain anonymous has just woofed three times for Furcal returning to LA. Two woofs would have meant Atlanta.
    2008-12-17 14:24:33
    252.   Alex41592
    I won't believe anything until I see Rawitch confirm it. Tim Brown is a close second.
    2008-12-17 14:25:49
    253.   Howard Fox
    249 it's all perspective

    from where I sit, he is on the right side of 30

    2008-12-17 14:26:54
    254.   Ken Noe
    Diamond Leung confirms that Terry Tiffee has signed with the Phillies.
    2008-12-17 14:26:56
    255.   Jon Weisman
    247/248 - Clearly. But it's like rooting for the Exxon Valdez against the seagulls.
    2008-12-17 14:27:24
    256.   bhsportsguy
    251 What does his sources say about Teixaira, 3 woofs mean Red Sox and 4 means Angels. I think your source would actually have to say the word "Nats" for me to believe Mark is going to DC.
    2008-12-17 14:28:04
    257.   underdog
    254 Tiffee, we hardly knew ye(e).
    2008-12-17 14:29:35
    258.   silverwidow
    Dodgers.com has a new article up that says he hasn't reach a decision, but we're the favorites.

    The information sounds a few hours old, at least.

    2008-12-17 14:29:40
    259.   underdog
    I feel like Molly's dog and my cat for that matter would be just as accurate a predictor of rumors and signings as is Rosenthal. Maybe more so.
    2008-12-17 14:29:50
    260.   Branch Rickey
    256. Did you get my email yesterday?
    2008-12-17 14:29:59
    261.   Andrew Shimmin
    What I'd like to see is more anonymous sources calling other anonymous sources names. Especially other reporters' anonymous sources "Whoever gave Jackison that story about Vizquel going to L.A. was a real moron," an AL front-office insider said on Monday, "and what kind of buck-toothed imbecile gave you the one about Cano for Kemp, Billingsley, and whoever else? "
    2008-12-17 14:31:41
    262.   Ken Noe
    259 Whenever the cat produce a hairball, it's the Yankees.
    2008-12-17 14:33:32
    263.   kinbote
    Now the Phillies are just mocking us.
    2008-12-17 14:33:46
    264.   LU Dodger
    251

    The onomatopoeic, "woof" and "bark" always make me laugh.

    I get the woo in woof, but how people got the pronounced "f" and "b" sound cracks me up.

    Though, with all the talking dogs in Hollywood, I think my enunciation isn't anything to brag about.

    2008-12-17 14:34:54
    265.   superbas
    according to loose cannons according to fox news raffi resigns with the dodgers.
    2008-12-17 14:35:20
    266.   Eric Stephen
    256
    One of the greatest punchlines ever: "Maybe I should have said DiMaggio?"
    2008-12-17 14:36:13
    267.   Tripon
    248 Fox is paying him to break anything and everything. Really, I can't even get mad at Rosenthal anymore, its clear that he's doing what Fox wants him to. Which is to report anything remotely news worthy.
    2008-12-17 14:36:24
    268.   Eric Stephen
    265
    Rafaeeeeeeeling you!!!
    2008-12-17 14:36:36
    269.   Ken Noe
    256 "Onomatopoeia every time I see ya
    My senses tell me hubba
    And I just cant disagree
    I get a feeling in my heart that I can't describe
    Its sort of lub, dub, lub, dub"
    2008-12-17 14:37:51
    270.   Howard Fox
    266 the way I heard it, was Gehrig
    2008-12-17 14:38:10
    271.   blue22
    267 - more page views and more eyeballs means more ad revenue.
    2008-12-17 14:39:11
    272.   blue22
    265 - raffi resigns with the dodgers

    does that mean we have to hear that "apples and bananas" song at Dodger games now?

    2008-12-17 14:39:58
    273.   LAT
    Ken Rosenthal giving directions:

    "Go right.
    No, go left.
    Wait, go forward.
    No, backward.
    Stay where you are.
    See, I told you I knew the way."

    2008-12-17 14:39:58
    274.   LU Dodger
    This same scout said Furcal's mother was thrilled with thoughts of her son once again playing in Atlanta, where he spent the first six seasons of his career.

    Do you think mommy dearest is any less thrilled with Raffy treating her with his almost assuredly "upped" contract from the Dodgers?

    2008-12-17 14:42:15
    275.   JoeyP
    TrueBlueLa's new tagline - "Where's Andrew"
    2008-12-17 14:47:35
    276.   Bluebleeder87
    I wonder what XeiFrank's simulator thinks of all this
    2008-12-17 14:50:08
    277.   silverwidow
    Updated Rosenthal:

    The Dodgers and Furcal were still hammering out an agreement Wednesday afternoon, sources said, but the Braves had been informed that Furcal would not accept their deal.

    2008-12-17 14:51:32
    278.   oshea2002
    Now Kenny is saying there's not a firm deal yet, but it appears done.
    2008-12-17 14:51:47
    279.   bferb
    Per MLBTR:
    The Latest from Ken Rosenthal:

    The Dodgers and Furcal were still hammering out an agreement Wednesday afternoon, sources said, but the Braves had been informed that Furcal would not accept their deal.

    2008-12-17 14:53:22
    280.   Jon Weisman
    Rawitch posted at 2:05 p.m. and Furcal was unresolved at that time.

    "We all still have our fingers crossed that it will work out."

    http://insidethedodgers.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/best_laid_plans.html

    "Ned will be on Petros & Money today at 5:30 on KLAC 570 in Los Angeles."

    2008-12-17 14:53:43
    281.   Howard Fox
    meaning that tomorrow's headline will be: FURCAL SIGNS WITH A'S
    2008-12-17 14:54:38
    282.   kinbote
    Colletti's sending in the tanks. Move away from the windows.
    2008-12-17 14:55:17
    283.   Howard Fox
    and in a related story will be: Dodgers send Kemp to A's for Crosby and Cash
    2008-12-17 14:55:23
    284.   superbas
    i blame all this madness on hu and his vision problem.
    2008-12-17 14:56:36
    285.   Howard Fox
    and the story will discuss how Ned was surprised that Norm Cash was coming out of retirement, but you have to grab quality players when they are available
    2008-12-17 14:57:42
    286.   Jim Hitchcock
    284 That, or Angel Berroa getting the ball stuck in his jersey.
    2008-12-17 14:58:06
    287.   berkowit28
    240 Josh Rawitch says Ned is going to be on KLAC 570 radio at 5:30, so we "can hear it straight from him" then. Evidently Josh thinks Colletti will know then for sure where Furcal is going, and will tell us - your famous press release. But he might just say "We're still talking to Furcal's agent".
    2008-12-17 14:59:26
    288.   MSarg29
    The LA beat reporters have certainly been left in the dust on the Furcal story.

    Seems to be a pattern.

    I understand the disdain for rumors on this site, but that shouldn't excuse the beat reporters in LA getting beaten on each of the developments in this story.

    2008-12-17 14:59:45
    289.   SortaLaSorda
    Is there any way we can weave the Furcal story into a discussion about Jake Peavy, the Cubs, the Braves, and Brad and Angelina's children, so that we can read a semi-fascinating, minimally-interesting but ultimately disappointing story that leaves us feeling empty?
    2008-12-17 15:01:48
    290.   oshea2002
    288 - Jackson is pretty conservative, he never hits anything first, so that's not surprising.
    2008-12-17 15:01:49
    291.   Gagne55
    281 Or Furcal to choose between Cleveland and Toronto today. Followed by Furcal reportedly signs with Blue Jays. Then Furcal now considering Cincinatti's late offer.
    2008-12-17 15:03:48
    292.   Ken Noe
    291 Furcal Signs With Expos, DeShields To LA Again
    2008-12-17 15:05:44
    293.   Jon Weisman
    288 - They haven't been beaten on anything in the past 48 hours that wasn't erroneous and/or worthless. To criticize them for not reporting a not-done deal seems unfair.

    As the Atlanta beat writer himself pointed out today, if the agent hadn't been misleading or misunderstood Tuesday morning, there would have been no story at all Tuesday.

    2008-12-17 15:06:15
    294.   Gagne55
    292 Only if the Dodgers bring back Pedro Martinez. He's a free agent.
    2008-12-17 15:06:43
    295.   Andrew Shimmin
    I can't get excited about Furcal. Right now, I'm focusing all my wishful thinking on the Naranjeros de Hermosillo.
    2008-12-17 15:06:57
    296.   Jon Weisman
    Think about it. What a waste of time the past two days have been. Nothing has happened, yet hours have been spent obessing over it.
    2008-12-17 15:08:15
    297.   oshea2002
    Olney is on Sportscenter, he's claiming that Furcal is likely headed to LA as well.
    2008-12-17 15:09:05
    298.   Tripon
    Tex to sign with the Tokyo Giants, says American Baseball too obsessed with long ball.
    2008-12-17 15:09:52
    299.   kinbote
    296 Your headlines have been highly entertaining. FWIW.
    2008-12-17 15:09:55
    300.   Andrew Shimmin
    296- It's like soccer, without the phony injuries or offside calls.
    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2008-12-17 15:10:03
    301.   Howard Fox
    297 like I said, to gather his stuff
    2008-12-17 15:10:34
    302.   MollyKnight
    I just asked Pirate where Texiera was going and he cocked his head to the left. Apparently, he doesn't know either.
    2008-12-17 15:10:40
    303.   oshea2002
    Speaking of the Von Bulows who were mentioned a few days back, Reversal of Fortune is on HBO2.
    2008-12-17 15:11:09
    304.   Tripon
    Frank Wren just did an interview on Bill Shank's radio show. He said there was an agreement Monday night and Kinzer requested a terms sheet. The Braves faxed it over and it was never signed. Next thing they knew the Dodgers are back in it. So its basically who do you believe, the Braves or Furcals people.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/rafael-furcal-4.html#comments

    2008-12-17 15:11:48
    305.   silverwidow
    Yahoo's Tim Brown with an update:

    http://tinyurl.com/4zwtok

    Braves are "frustrated" that Furcal is headed to L.A. They sent him a signed term sheet yesterday and felt it was ethically binding.

    2008-12-17 15:12:09
    306.   Bob Timmermann
    298
    If Mark Teixeira played in the Tokyo Dome, he'd hit 60 home runs.
    2008-12-17 15:12:21
    307.   Howard Fox
    all would have been clearer had Furcal used Boras as his agent
    2008-12-17 15:12:39
    308.   Marty
    273 Serpentine!
    2008-12-17 15:12:53
    309.   Gagne55
    302 Which Pirate?
    2008-12-17 15:14:23
    310.   Eric Stephen
    302
    Maybe he was pointing toward Tex's destination. Which way was he facing?
    2008-12-17 15:15:38
    311.   Jacob Burch
    309 Pirate Knight is Molly's dog.
    2008-12-17 15:16:40
    312.   oshea2002
    Really, this is almost like Raffy was a restricted free agent. Hopefully Boras will do us the same courtesy with Manny.
    2008-12-17 15:17:33
    313.   Gagne55
    310 From here though, New York and Boston are essentially the same direction.
    2008-12-17 15:18:21
    314.   Gagne55
    311 Named after Pittsburgh Pirate?
    2008-12-17 15:18:39
    315.   Tripon
    312 Unfrocking likely.

    The main reason Furcal doesn't want to go back to the Braves because he would have to play 2nd base.

    Any team that signs Manny knows they have a DH/LF on their hands.

    2008-12-17 15:18:45
    316.   Eric Stephen
    313
    But Molly's in NY.
    2008-12-17 15:20:15
    317.   MC Safety
    300 LOL
    2008-12-17 15:20:19
    318.   Bob Timmermann
    315

    I was talking to a disgraced Catholic priest and he said "Defrocking likely!"

    2008-12-17 15:20:22
    319.   Bumsrap
    Humor me. Lets say the Dodgers trade Jones to the Yankees and Hu has a fantastic Spring Training, so fantastic that the Dodgers announce that Hu will open the season at shortstop and Furcal will open in Center field.

    It is also announced that Ethier plays left and Kemp plays right. What do you think Pierre would be quoted as saying?

    2008-12-17 15:21:52
    320.   Gagne55
    316 Depending where she is in New York, Bronx and Anaheim could be in the same direction. Or Bronx and Boston. So the question becomes, where in New York is Molly?
    2008-12-17 15:23:15
    321.   Eric Stephen
    319
    Pierre will be quoted as saying, "Why is everyone talking about Manny being benched, and nobody is talking about wittle old me?"
    2008-12-17 15:23:43
    322.   Tripon
    319 I can see Juan Pierre going Juan Marichal on Coletti.
    2008-12-17 15:23:52
    323.   silverwidow
    319 "It's Joe's decision," Pierre said. "I'm not going to walk around here all salty or anything."
    2008-12-17 15:24:04
    324.   Gilberto Reyes
    296 Actually, a lot has happened. Furcal's agent used the Braves as a pawn to get the Dodgers to up their offer. Should Atlanta be angry?
    2008-12-17 15:24:14
    325.   Eric Stephen
    320
    What about Boston and Anaheim?
    2008-12-17 15:24:39
    326.   Bob Timmermann
    Molly's dog turns toward Mecca several times a day.
    2008-12-17 15:24:41
    327.   Ken Noe
    319 "I want to thank Dusty Baker for having faith in me."
    2008-12-17 15:25:24
    328.   Gagne55
    319 "Thank you for electing me Los Angeles mayor." Hey, it's no more absurd than the conditional.
    2008-12-17 15:25:26
    329.   Eric Stephen
    324
    Possible headline: "Braves Fall Victim to Kinzer Scheme"
    2008-12-17 15:26:47
    330.   Ken Noe
    It just occurred to me, seeing the Dodgers @ Atlanta this season could be exciting. Maybe I should wear my souvenir helmet.
    2008-12-17 15:27:01
    331.   Gagne55
    325 I do not believe a vector can be constructed that intersects Boston, Anaheim, and New York.
    2008-12-17 15:30:29
    332.   Bob Timmermann
    325
    Eric Stephen and I are big advocates of non-Euclidean geometry.
    2008-12-17 15:30:29
    333.   Gilberto Reyes
    329 Well, the Kinzer Scheme appeared to to have worked. Will other agents now use this technique? There seem to be plenty of Rosenthal's out their in the media to assist with this type of scheme.
    2008-12-17 15:30:59
    334.   Icaros
    "What's your vector, Victor?"
    2008-12-17 15:32:31
    335.   Gagne55
    331 Actually, it comes rather close. However, that is irrelevant since New York is between Anaheim and Boston and so they would have to be in different directions.
    2008-12-17 15:33:20
    336.   Dodgers49
    302 and he cocked his head to the left.

    But that means Tex is headed to the left coast.

    2008-12-17 15:35:04
    337.   ToyCannon
    I think a lot has happened. While we may make fun of rumors on who is interested in who, rarely is the story wrong when a player is reported to have chosen a team.

    This is Elton Brand like news. When the GM reports that they sent an offer sheet with the expectation of it being signed it is usually just a formality.

    2008-12-17 15:35:19
    338.   Gagne55
    332 Yeah, and I realize that spherical geometry should be used here. Unfortunately, Google maps treats the earth's surface as if it were a Euclidean Space.
    2008-12-17 15:35:34
    339.   MollyKnight
    OK. We have more conclusive evidence now. I just asked Pirate if Tex was going to sign with the Angels and he ran under the bed. He's still hiding under there.

    Survey says, no.

    2008-12-17 15:35:58
    340.   bhsportsguy
    I am sorry I brought an innocent like Pirate into this discussion.
    2008-12-17 15:36:22
    341.   Daniel Zappala
    Let's see that shot of Pirate again. Back and to the left. Back and to the left. I smell a conspiracy.
    2008-12-17 15:36:36
    342.   bhsportsguy
    339 Was that before or after you put on Scott Boras mask?
    2008-12-17 15:36:57
    343.   silverwidow
    "When people deal with you in this manner, they lose credibility," Braves GM Frank Wren said Wednesday. "You don't forget these things."

    I think we have our SS back.

    2008-12-17 15:37:51
    344.   Eric Stephen
    337
    So what this proves is that Arn Tellem and his firm don't believe in verbal deals. The lesson, as always: get it in writing.
    2008-12-17 15:38:42
    345.   bhsportsguy
    337 Actually, this is a lot like signing day for NCAA Divison 1 football. Until their LOI arrives (still by fax), you just don't know if the kid's verbal committment means anything.
    2008-12-17 15:39:14
    346.   Alex41592
    343 - Maybe Frank Wren will go after Manny.
    2008-12-17 15:39:19
    347.   Eric Stephen
    343
    Frank Wren opens his Ned Colletti GM Playbook® to the "J.D. Drew and The Human Response" section.
    2008-12-17 15:39:58
    348.   bhsportsguy
    344 I don't think Arm was representing Kobe anymore when Elgin Baylor thought he had Bryant all but signed. But the situations are similar.
    2008-12-17 15:40:35
    349.   Eric Stephen
    348
    I was talking about Elton Brand.
    2008-12-17 15:41:22
    350.   Eric Stephen
    and of course Brand's agent is David Falk.

    I'm a stupid.

    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2008-12-17 15:41:23
    351.   Gagne55
    332 Bob, should I take non-Euclidean geometry spring quarter?
    2008-12-17 15:42:16
    352.   Jon Weisman
    337 - Maybe. I guess it depends on your interpretation. The way I see it, it's either a done deal or it isn't - and this was a case of "isn't."

    I mean, your interpretation rests on the idea of an agent using questionable ethics to play two teams against each other. That doesn't strike me as news.

    2008-12-17 15:42:57
    353.   Jon Weisman
    347 - My thoughts exactly.
    2008-12-17 15:43:15
    354.   Xeifrank
    276. I've been busy at work and out of the Dodger Thoughts loop. What did you need? :)
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-17 15:43:37
    355.   Tripon
    Why would Furcal need multiple agents anyway? Doesn't that mean he has to pay more of an agent commission?
    2008-12-17 15:44:00
    356.   underdog
    Didn't something like this, maybe not to the same degree, happen when the Dodgers first signed Furcal? Wasn't he rumored "this close" to coming to the Cubs? Or am I misunderremebering that?
    2008-12-17 15:44:27
    357.   Bob Timmermann
    351
    Beats me, I majored in History.

    I would suggest brushing up on the Federalist period of U.S. History. Then you can get into lively debates with Greg Brock and I over whether or not Jay's Treaty was a good idea.

    I won that debate. That's why you don't see Greg Brock around here anymore.

    It's because of the shame.

    2008-12-17 15:47:07
    358.   Harold M Johnson
    Given the injuries and the economy, I'm surprised the market for Furcal was so robust.
    2008-12-17 15:47:38
    359.   Jim Hitchcock
    358 So, you're a Hamilton over Jefferson kind of guy, or am I inferring too much?
    2008-12-17 15:48:31
    360.   bhsportsguy
    357 But according to HBO's "John Adams," the reaction from American citizens to the treay made George Washington weary and led to him deciding to end his presidency after 2 terms.
    2008-12-17 15:49:07
    361.   Bob Timmermann
    359
    My hero is George Mason.

    I would have liked him more if his college could have beaten Florida in the 2006 Final Four.

    2008-12-17 15:49:09
    362.   bhsportsguy
    359 Umm, reverse that thank you.
    2008-12-17 15:50:31
    363.   Xeifrank
    $10Mil per year would put the Dodgers value of Furcal in the 2 WAR/Wins area, which should be what a league average player at a position makes. I have Furcal a little over 2 WAR, but I can see who injury worries brought him down to the 2 range.
    vr, Xei
    2008-12-17 15:53:05
    364.   Gilberto Reyes
    Is Braves GM Frank Wren angry at Furcal's agent or the Dodgers and Ned Colletti? Who is he referring to in his statement that he won't forget?
    2008-12-17 15:55:39
    365.   oshea2002
    361 - George Mason also flew the Nuke out of LA in Season 2 of 24, a true hero.
    2008-12-17 15:55:43
    366.   Eric Stephen
    364
    He has to be referring to Kinzer for shopping the deal after Wren believed it was all but done.
    2008-12-17 15:58:35
    367.   oshea2002
    Furcal timeline is up in Rosenthal's new update. He also said "the reasons he chose LA are unclear." Lots of people choose to return to their current team, and it's usually obvious - maybe he likes it here.
    2008-12-17 15:59:17
    368.   silverwidow
    Wow, on ESPN right now they showed a clip that said "Michael Jordon vs. Karl Malone."
    2008-12-17 16:01:19
    369.   KG16
    because it's either this or read a verified answer and cross-reference it with the verified complaint... ranking the Founders:

    1. Hamilton
    2. Franklin
    3. Madison
    4. Marshall
    5. Washington
    6. Jefferson

    I don't have much need of yeomen farmers, I'll take the city and 'burbs, thankyouverymuch.

    2008-12-17 16:02:45
    370.   KG16
    368 - Utah should have filed a federal law suit against the Bulls and the NBA for steal the NBA title on Jordan's offensive foul. Don't get me wrong, couldn't have happened to a nicer team than the Jazz, but still, that was a foul from here to Sunday and back.
    2008-12-17 16:02:59
    371.   underdog
    I think this afternoon Furcal told the Dodgers, It's business time.

    I know what you're trying to say, you're trying to say it's time for business. Oh yeah.

    2008-12-17 16:05:05
    372.   Eric Stephen
    370
    Did Utah have a 3-2 series lead in Game 6, or did Chicago? I don't remember.

    Also, it was Jordan who "stole" the title in part by stripping Karl Malone in the previous play.

    2008-12-17 16:05:09
    373.   Tripon
    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1612750239?bctid=4960708001

    Schilling takes another shot at Manny.

    2008-12-17 16:05:27
    374.   fritts
    Furcal is a 2 WAR player at 350 PA and a conservative wOBA. He could be 3+ WAR player or get hurt and miss 157 games. I think his 2009 performance is difficult to predict with any certainty. Also, thanks Xeifrank, for having your WAR tally sheet available.
    2008-12-17 16:08:00
    375.   Gilberto Reyes
    366 What is the proper protocal for shopping your deal before signing it. Remember when Beltre signed with Seattle, the Dodgers said that they were never given a chance to counter, and that their was poor communication between the team and Beltre/Boras. If Beltre really wanted to stay in LA like Furcal apparently did, why can't you shop your deal?
    2008-12-17 16:08:19
    376.   Gen3Blue
    I sense we may hear from Greg Brock soon.

    266 includes "what goes on top of a house"
    I presume?
    308 is that from the great scene
    in the good (first) "In Laws"
    319 If something doesn't change, I expect
    we will hear quite a bit from JP and
    Andruw this year.

    2008-12-17 16:11:43
    377.   KG16
    372 - I just dislike the fact that the signature moment for the allegedly best player evah (cough, cough) was a offensive foul.
    2008-12-17 16:14:01
    378.   DaDoughboy
    371.
    As Jemaine (hopefully) will say: "business hours are over baby.."
    2008-12-17 16:14:57
    379.   Jon Weisman
    NPUT
    2008-12-17 16:16:17
    380.   berkowit28
    364 Furcal's agent (and maybe Furcal).

    I expect that it's like others said. Furcal and the agent both found the Braves' money offer acceptable, agent accepted verbally, then Furcal said "But I don't want to play 2nd base. See if the Dodgers will pay the same." Since the Dodgers were now ready to guarantee 3 years (same as Braves, not 4 years as reported earlier when Dodgers withdrew), a deal was made.

    2008-12-17 16:17:56
    381.   NWdodger
    Add to the list of players some teams will never sign:

    Dodgers: Luke Hochevar
    Red Sox: Manny Ramirez

    Now:
    Braves: Rafael Furcal

    2008-12-17 16:20:02
    382.   Ken Arneson
    If I were Billy Beane, I'd be on the phone right now. "Hey, Ned, need to free up some money to sign Manny? 34 of my 40 players are making minimum wage, we've got money to burn. You take Bobby Crosby's 5 mil, and you send us Andruw Jones' 22 mil, plus some nice prospects like Ivan DeJesus (you won't be needing him anyway), and it's win-win for both of us."

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