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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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That's Entertainment
2008-12-29 06:24
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Despite the crumbling economy, people continue to spend tons of money at the movies - even though not all of them are of World Series quality. Considering how many tickets at Dodger Stadium (reserve, top deck) are priced below that of a movie, I'm not sure that there will be the big 2009 attendance downturn that some are expecting. Enough people still want their entertainment.

The test will come on the high-end tickets and on concessions, but come April, there might be sufficient optimism about the ultimate recovery of the economy to re-encourage spending. I'm not making a prediction or suggesting there won't be any decline at all. I think the pull of the Dodgers might be enough to withstand these dire times.

Comments (327)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-29 07:20:44
1.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers likely aren't going to try a promotion like the Kings and sell all the seats in the house for a very low price. I can just imagine what some season ticket holder with fancy seats on the Field Level thinks if the Sixpack Family of Foreclosure Alley shows up in their row with seats they bought for 10 bucks each.
2008-12-29 07:42:20
2.   das411
Bob, if that Sixpack Family is wearing orange and black at the Flyers/Kings game, do NOT try to tell them who to root for! They are either Giants fans who got lost (but still won't root for LA), or Flyers fans who are not lost at all and just waiting for some unsuspecting Los Angelino...
2008-12-29 07:48:36
3.   Ken Noe
I suspect we've seen the last of cheap seat promotions at DS, at least during the McCourt Era. The last one went rather awry. It's more likely that you'll see a PR blitz featuring the return of Manny. I'm channeling billboards with ordinary fans wearing dreds.
2008-12-29 07:56:47
4.   Bob Timmermann
There were a lot of cheap seat promotions last year, but they were all online. And a Dodgers spokesperson thought that an online sale would draw a better class of fan.

That is still to be seen.

2008-12-29 07:57:00
5.   PalmdaleSteve1
Anyone know if Parking Lot Frank is raising any prices this year? Maybe take a page from the State of California and add a "fee" to parking?
2008-12-29 08:15:15
6.   Marty
I got dragged into the theater to see The Spirit Saturday. If you want to see Sam Jackson ham it up like never before, go see it.
2008-12-29 08:26:38
7.   cargill06
Don't know if anyone has seen this yet, but old friend Brad Penny has signed with Boston.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3797047

2008-12-29 08:53:34
8.   PalmdaleSteve1
7 Yes saw that, good for Big Brad...given that Boston is on national TV all the time, we'll get to see if he gets back to form.
2008-12-29 08:54:27
9.   ToyCannon
0
Not sure if that is true. Movies have 1/2 price tickets for children and seniors, or matinee pricing, major league baseball charges full price no matter the age or time. Most families can go to the movies close to home so gas is negligible and parking is just about always free. To take a family of four to a game involves 15.00 in parking, around 5.00 in gas, food about 60.00, and then the tickets. The cheap tickets themselves will put you of course in the cheap seats where Manny looks like any other player.

A movie is the cost of the movie, a kids pack for food and they sit down and watch the whole movie without 3 interruptions for food and goodies. You sit wherever you want if you queued up in time with no economic levels separating you from those with money so the kids aren't left wondering why you are 100 feet high instead of 25 feet away from the players.

You may be right that the economy will not play a part in the attendance but baseball is not nearly the value that a movie is. How many movies have you taken your children to where they were disappointed compared to how many times you have taken them to a game and they are bored before they sit down?

2008-12-29 08:57:20
10.   ToyCannon
4
Are the Dodgers or any baseball team really interested in a higher class of fan or the fan who will spend 60.00 on 5 beers?
2008-12-29 09:03:14
11.   PalmdaleSteve1
Andruw Jones, everyone's favorite Blimp, appears to not exactly be setting Winter baseball on fire...shocking simply shocking I tell you, must be pressure from fans or something.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Faguilas.com.do%2F&sl=es&tl=en&history_state0=

2008-12-29 09:13:32
12.   D4P
Andruw Jones, everyone's favorite Blimp

Andruw "Hindenberg" Jones, or "Hindy" for short

2008-12-29 09:14:14
13.   Bob Timmermann
Pedant alert:

The Hindenburg was not a blimp.

2008-12-29 09:16:41
14.   D4P
Andruw Jones, everyone's favorite rigid airship
2008-12-29 09:17:50
15.   Bob Timmermann
Thank you.
2008-12-29 09:20:30
16.   D4P
But I'm still calling him Hindy
2008-12-29 09:26:14
17.   ToyCannon
Jose Mota on Andruw Jones
http://tinyurl.com/7mlo6g
2008-12-29 09:29:46
18.   Bob Timmermann
I will call him Graf.

For comparison purposes, the Hinbenburg was over 800 feet long. A Goodyear blimp is about 192 feet long.

The Airbus A380 is about 240 feet long.

If people saw something like the Hindbenurg in the sky now, they'd freak.

2008-12-29 09:32:22
19.   D4P
So far we've got Hindenberg, Hindenburg, Hinbenburg, and Hindbenurg
2008-12-29 09:32:34
20.   3upn3down
I'm sure the studios have done studies correlating movie going to recessions, but I'd think it would be a fairly weak correlation relative to other forms of discretionary spending. Movies are considered a cheap form of entertainment and like beer and cigarettes, tend to hold up in weaker economies.
2008-12-29 09:33:50
21.   Bob Timmermann
It should be HINDENBURG

It's the Willy Taveras of Zeppelins.

2008-12-29 09:34:20
22.   LogikReader
1

Fun story about the Kings and their cheap ticket prices...

Friday's game was against the Coyotes and they were offering the first of the Kings' 4 collectible pucks that night for those in attendance.

Apparently, these pucks are as popular as the Dodger Bobbleheads. I couldn't find a seat! I was looking all over ticketmaster for a ticket that afternoon (so about 6 hours before the game). My buddy and I go to lunch, then come back, and I try TM again. No tickets sold within 4 hours of a game on ticketmaster. So I'm in my friends apartment in West LA, the well run dry on ebay, no tix available online... what to do?

My last ditch effort was to call the Kings directly. I get a Kings rep on the line and ask him "Are there any tickets left for tonight's game?"

Unprovoked, the Kings rep tells me all there is left is some seats in the lower level and I can have them for 60% off by purchasing over the phone. I didn't even have to pay TM fees!

So just by calling the Kings shortly before faceoff, I scored the "fancy seats" for a popular game.

I know the Kings are the 5th most popular team in LA (behind the Sparks), but this kind of customer service was really awesome.

2008-12-29 09:35:04
23.   Ken Noe
"And...strike three on Jones. Oh, the humanity."
2008-12-29 09:37:16
24.   ToyCannon
Thanks for that, almost 3 football fields. I can't even imagine how that would have looked in the sky. I've never read an account of what it was like to travel in one of those, I wonder what it was like.
2008-12-29 09:38:06
25.   3upn3down
True to form and in keeping with past recessions, Americans are flocking to the movies, the chief executive of the largest U.S. theater chain saidy.

"We're approximately two-thirds of the way through the quarter, and we are having a very good fourth quarter this year compared to last year as an industry," Regal Entertainment Group's CEO Mike Campbell told.

Movie theaters are seeing double-digit growth in box office revenue and high single-digit growth in attendance so far this quarter on the appeal of films like "Twilight," "Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa," and "Bolt," according to Campbell.

He said the movie industry has done well during all the recessions in the past 50 years. "It is still the most affordable out of home entertainment option," he said.

http://www.4to40.com/newsat4/index.asp?id=2313&category=entertainment

2008-12-29 09:38:09
26.   PalmdaleSteve1
Raffie is doing well in Winter League play however, .300 or so.
2008-12-29 09:39:20
27.   Jon Weisman
20 - We've had this debate before, and I did accept the fact that movies aren't as cheap as baseball. But they aren't so much cheaper that I don't think there's a connection. And baseball is only offered in the city of Los Angeles 81 times a year plus exhibitions, while movies are offered 365 x number of movies x number of showings per day. I think the baseball market will still remain strong.
2008-12-29 09:39:52
28.   Jon Weisman
27 - In the first sentence, I mean - that baseball isn't as cheap as movies.
2008-12-29 09:39:57
29.   gibsonhobbs88
Hello fellow bloggers, hope everyone had a restful holiday weekend. We have another one long weekend coming up in a few days as well. Nice to have a few days to reflect and rest and just have a few days of work in between. I do have my own blog of my own thoughts on a variety of subjects and my current article written over the weekend is how Bud Selig's double standard in regards to how he handles the Yankees and the rest of the league will eventually ruin the game. My blog can be found at http://craigtakesonhypocrisy.typepad.com
and my article is titled: Commish-A Yankee Sock Puppet! Anyway, I want to wish everyone on this site a happy New Year and hopes for better times ahead!
2008-12-29 09:43:16
30.   LogikReader
27

I concur. In light of the economic events, I've also noticed that basically no other team has made a big signing besides the Yankees. I think that's very telling, but also a good sign that most MLB teams appear to be thinking responsibly about their payroll.

Many teams will offer special discount packages for tickets and the Dodgers usually aren't an exception. I would love to see a "every seat for $30" promotion for a lousy game against the Pirates on a Wednesday. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but it would be a nice gesture and simultaneously a way to recoup funds during a slow week at DS.

2008-12-29 09:47:40
31.   PalmdaleSteve1
30 But knowing Parking Lot Frank, there would be a special "fee" on parking during those games, for building playing fields in the community don't you know.
2008-12-29 09:49:17
32.   Bob Hendley
On Jones, and experience of guys going over the edge and then coming back, there is the case of Eric Davis, who at the age of 27 had an OPS+ 153, followed by 123, 105, 85, 99 and at age 32 an OPS+ 51. Subsequently, he achieved an OPS+ of 139 and later at 36 years of age an OPS+ 151. Jeez, I forgot that he ended his career later with the dreaded Gnats.
2008-12-29 09:55:01
33.   ToyCannon
32
Of course that decline started with the Dodgers at age 30. Then he missed most of 94, all of 95 and then became a stud again for 3 years. What a talent, we just didn't get to see any of it.
2008-12-29 09:59:16
34.   Bob Timmermann
33
But Davis had injuries and illness to contend with. The extent of his injuries after the 1990 World Series were never fully understood.

If he only had the Red Sox medical team...

2008-12-29 09:59:30
35.   Dave60
30 I'll speculate that teams that start well at the box office will continue to do well as perceived ticket scarcity will drive the market. But teams that struggle at the box office, likely due to a weak start on the field, will see a box office fall off. And most GMs, except Cashman, are trying to determine which they'll be.
2008-12-29 10:00:05
36.   Big Game
21 The Hindenburg only cost a little more than $5 million. I wonder what that would translate to in today's dollars.

Also, which cargo bay holds more: The Hindenburg's or Andruw's?

2008-12-29 10:06:17
37.   Daniel Zappala
Bob is my favorite pedant. If I used nicknames, I would call Jones "airship".
2008-12-29 10:07:14
38.   jasonungar07
E-Davis is Jordan Farmar's godfather! Nice.
2008-12-29 10:08:57
39.   Xeifrank
I actually went to the movie theater the day after xmas as part of a family excursion. Half of the family went to see Despereaux with my 4 year old daughter and the other half got to pick from a half a dozen or more different Hollywood movies. I figured there would be one that would look interesting, but there wasn't, so I ended up watching the Childrens movie. It was Ok, but the projector broke down the last 10 minutes so we all got free passes. When they turned on the lights and stopped the movie, my daughter yelled out, "Hey, the movie isn't even over!". Everyone laughed. It was the best part of the movie. The free passes will probably collect dust until another kids movie comes out.
vr, Xei
2008-12-29 10:09:45
40.   Bob Timmermann
36
The Hindenburg's cost now would be around $60 million.

But that's a rough estimate. I think the R&D costs would be more than $60M now.

2008-12-29 10:12:48
41.   ToyCannon
33
Jones did have surgery so his knee problems were not imaginary.
2008-12-29 10:13:31
42.   ToyCannon
34
If he only hadn't played on concrete.
2008-12-29 10:14:43
43.   ToyCannon
38
BH - did you know Eric Davis? I know you went to school with Jordan's dad.
2008-12-29 10:15:59
44.   PalmdaleSteve1
41 I thought Andruw's problems began with the raid on BALCO...silly me.
2008-12-29 10:17:05
45.   KG16
Hollywood does well when they have good stories. They've not had a lot of those lately. Baseball, in a particular market is much the same, if the Dodgers have a compelling season and/or team they will do well at the box office, if not, they won't.
2008-12-29 10:21:20
46.   bhsportsguy
43 No, but he went to high school the same time I did. So he would have played high school ball the same time as Damon (Jordan's dad) did but I think they met up later in the minors.

Daryl Strawberry played at the same too, I saw him hit a ball out of Venice High (right after he (Strawberry) was on the cover of Sports Illustrated (as a high school ballplayer).

Eric Davis was also at the recent Winter Meetings, he looked great and I saw he and Tommy Lasorda share some warm greetings.

2008-12-29 10:35:10
47.   Lexinthedena
Speaking of movies, has anyone seen The Wrestler?....saw it last night with my life. Incredible film.

Even though I've heard Rourke is a shmuck, I'm still happy to see such a good actor gettin' his due. PLus, I heard that Nic Cage was gonna do it. What a disaster that would have been.

2008-12-29 10:35:13
48.   Hollywood Joe
30 31

The Dodgers ran fantastic promotions last year online for every home stand and I purchased tickets for some of those promotions that ranged from 70% off some of the best seats in the house for a Wednesday afternoon game to $10 tickets for infield reserve right behind home plate during a September game with playoff implications

In addtion there is a website "GoldStar" that would also have really great (~50% off) deals on tickets across multiple levels for several games per homestand. I used this service with great success too

On neither of these purchases was there a parking surcharge

There is plenty to question the McCourt's on (like Jaime's insane comment about building ballparks while wearing a $3000 outfit, or letting Ross Porter go without so much of a good bye, or any of the other 1000 public relations screwups) but the incessant and mostly unfounded claims about them...oh never mind

2008-12-29 10:35:47
49.   Big Game
44 I thought that was Marion Jones.
2008-12-29 10:37:42
50.   das411
22 , I had a very similar thing happen to me with a Flyers game last year, when I could not find tickets to a game at which Keith Primeau (see: 2004 playoffs) would be having a meet and greet beforehand. Nothing online, nothing through the website, called the team literally while driving to the arena two hours before they dropped the puck and their customer service person found me a deal on a lower level ticket, so I was able to meet him and shake hands and everything. Maybe their plan is to hold on even more tightly to the fans they do have instead of trying to attract new ones...

32 et al, how old was Albert Belle when his career came to that sudden end?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-29 10:45:50
51.   Hollywood Joe
44

Balco can only help you in how far the ball goes - you still have to hit it all by yourself (that is why Bonds is repugnant but still great to me)

All that swinging and missing by "The Airship" on sliders in the dirt, well there ain't nothing you can take in pill, cream, or injection form that can cure that mess

2008-12-29 10:48:13
52.   ToyCannon
32
He was 33 but his was completely based on the Bo Jackson type hip injury so it is not relevant to Andruw Jones.
2008-12-29 10:51:45
53.   ToyCannon
48
The great promotions they had were sponsored by corporate partners. Will they be there in 2009?
2008-12-29 10:52:27
54.   Jacob Burch
Airship Jones does kind of have a ring to it.

As long as Grace Slick doesn't sing lead.

2008-12-29 10:53:13
55.   PalmdaleSteve1
51 Hollywood...Maybe so, but how much of the game is mental. I think it helps me, it might help me, I don't have "it" any more so I swing harder, I chase more out of the zone.

Stats and cliff diving of them after testing became more rigorous in MLB, makes you go Hmmmm. They don't call it the steroid era for nothing.

2008-12-29 10:59:54
56.   silverwidow
The Mets are preparing offers for Lowe, Wolf, and Oliver Perez, hoping to sign one of them.
2008-12-29 11:01:02
57.   ToyCannon
55
He hit 31 home runs at the age of of 21. He hit 51 home runs a year after MLB started testing in 2005. He was never mentioned in the MLB report. He hit .158 after they banned "greenies". Maybe you are on the wrong track.
2008-12-29 11:04:03
58.   Big Game
57 Maybe its an ADD thing. Can we get Druw some Adderall?

I was discussing it with a friend who is a big golfer and its sounding more and more like Andruw's got a case of the 'yips'.

2008-12-29 11:05:00
59.   PalmdaleSteve1
57 ToyCannon...Maybe so, let's see what '09 brings. I would point out that asserting that the Mitchel report as the full story on PEDS in MLB is a bit of a stretch.
2008-12-29 11:11:29
60.   D4P
I called attention to Hindy's PED potential long before Ned signed him. His huge spike in HRs coupled with his skinny-to-thick body transformation are pretty much exactly the signs one would look for if trying to avoid former PED users.
2008-12-29 11:13:39
61.   das411
Don't worry everybody, somebody gave me Jose Canseco's new book for Christmas and as soon as I get home from work, I'll check the index to see if Andruw is mentioned there, because if Jose doesn't get to the bottom of this, who will??
2008-12-29 11:19:16
62.   bhsportsguy
The problem with the performance enhancing drug argument is the fact that there is no way to ever prove guilt or innocence.
2008-12-29 11:24:18
63.   bhsportsguy
The Dodgers just finished a 5 year period of attendance where for the first time in their history, they have averaged over 43,000 tickets sold for five straight years.

2008 saw a 3% drop in attendance and I do agree with ToyCannon that there were games in June and July where the crowds were much smaller than in past years.

Also, some of the promotions the Dodgers do are national (MasterCard/Coca-Cola, etc.) and I am guessing that those will continue.

I don't think a lot of the ticket promotions will suffer, I mean lets face it, they would rather fill seats at half price than let them sit empty.

2008-12-29 11:25:22
64.   D4P
The problem with the performance enhancing drug argument is the fact that there is no way to ever prove guilt or innocence

I don't really see that as a huge problem. GMs aren't trying to prove anything: they are (or, should be) just trying to identify good players who are worth to the team at least as much as they are getting paid. This quest dictates being wary of players with tell-tale PED signs, and being hesitant to pay they what their "PED-era" stats might warrant.

2008-12-29 11:31:43
65.   ToyCannon
63
So they saw a 3% drop even with the largest number of promotions we'd ever seen offered?

And we are still talking butts in seats. We have no way of knowing what the drop in actual attendance has been until they start counting turnstile turning attendance. What we do know is that it was off enough for the McCourts to publicly complain about ticket sales. Maybe they were talking about suite sales since that is the biggest bang for the buck for them.

2008-12-29 11:35:30
66.   JRSarno
What's longer? A Dodger game, or The Curious Case of Benjamin Button? Nothing like taking an F. Scott Fitzgerald SHORT story and re-fashioning it (i.e., OVERWRITING IT) into a 3 hour tour de Pitt. It wasn't THAT bad, I guess, but I was wondering when the bottom of the 9th inning was gonna arrive.

BTW, we need to get another pitcher soon. I'm getting antsy.

2008-12-29 11:36:14
67.   Jon Weisman
65 - "even with the largest number of promotions we'd ever seen offered?"

Where did this come from? Was 2008 unusual in number of promotions?

2008-12-29 11:39:29
68.   Tripon
Speaking of disappointing movies, The Spirit was the pits. Who had the bright idea to allow Frank Miller to write and direct the movie?!
2008-12-29 11:39:32
69.   Bob Timmermann
I think with the way tickets are sold now (online for the most part) you can have a lot of promotions regarding tickets. It's easier to have small promotions targeted at different groups.

As for giving away stuff, I'm not sure if anyone has the patience to count up the number of promotions and what constitutes a "promotion."

2008-12-29 11:42:59
70.   delias man
I never liked the "Kids Get in Free to Universal Studios" promotion. It was every week, but only with a paid adult admission, or they also gave one away with a Dodger 5th inning homerun. Pretty lame.
2008-12-29 11:47:49
71.   bhsportsguy
70 I don't know about that, I saw a kid get real excited when he won that promotion.

Is it any lamer than "free tacos?"

2008-12-29 11:48:12
72.   Tripon
According to ESPN's Jayson Stark, the Dodgers contacted Adam Dunn's agent over the holidays to express interest. Other teams showing interest: the Cubs, Nationals, Mariners, and Orioles.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3798366

2008-12-29 11:49:02
73.   berkowit28
"Dodgers not waiting on Manny, contact Dunn" Jayson Stark (rumor) ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3798366

Or maybe upping the ante on playing chicken with Boras...

2008-12-29 11:49:03
74.   silverwidow
72 HA HA! Yes!
2008-12-29 11:50:35
75.   Alex41592
72 - "according to an executive of a team interested in Dunn."

Yeah, that makes me believe it.

2008-12-29 11:51:25
76.   Lexinthedena
Ben Sheets + Adam Dunn > Manny + Pettitte.
2008-12-29 11:54:00
77.   KingKopitar
22 I know you were probably just kidding, but the Kings average a higher attendance than the Sparks had at any game last season. They're also outdrawing the Clippers this season.
2008-12-29 11:54:08
78.   bhsportsguy
76 Ben Sheets negatives (desired contract, health, draft pick) outweigh any positives right now.
2008-12-29 11:54:19
79.   ToyCannon
67
Strictly subjective. It seemed every game I watched on TV they were giving you a code to enter on-line to get discounted tickets and I don't remember that happening before.
As Hollywood Joe pointed out in 48 they seemed to have a plethora of promotions in 2008 and it was easy to get discounted tickets.
2008-12-29 11:55:46
80.   silverwidow
SS Furcal
RF Ethier
C Martin
LF Dunn
1B Loney
CF Kemp
3B Blake
2B DeWitt

I assume Jones or Pierre would get DFA'd/traded in this scenario.

2008-12-29 11:56:21
81.   ToyCannon
78
I'd debate that. Our pick is the 17th pick, how many 17th picks have developed to what Sheets already is. We don't know what his contract demands are. We do know the Yankee's or Red Sox won't be bidding on him so that helps.
2008-12-29 11:57:05
82.   ChicagoDodger
51 Balco can only help you in how far the ball goes - you still have to hit it all by yourself (that is why Bonds is repugnant but still great to me)

I have never understood this logic regarding PED's.

So, if just one warning track flyball a week left the yard because of PED's, the player is still great? Or an otherwise double off the wall turned into a homerun?

The very fact that it helps how far the ball travels is the main reason Bonds is so despised. Many of those homeruns are not homeruns, if they don't travel "as far" as they did.

Again, that is why I never understood the reasoning that steroids don't help you hit a baseball as reasoning why Bonds is considered (by some) to be so great.

2008-12-29 11:57:59
83.   delias man
71 I agree it is not the worst. Too often to be special.
2008-12-29 11:58:41
84.   68elcamino427
63
65
Re: Unoccupied Seats

This is ineresting to me.
How many of the season tickets are purchased by companies for use by their customers? I'll bet it represents a signifigant percentage of the season ticket sales.
So, if someone gave you tickets to a game - but the event wasn't compelling enough for you to take action and attend (and therby not spend your money on inflated concession priced goodies) the seats were purchased, given away as a gift, and unused.
Not everyone loves baseball the way I do?
Related economic fallout:
As the economy shrinks and companies need to pare back to stay afloat - How and when will some of them need to make the decision if it is prudent and viable to maintain the cost of the season seats?
In the smaller markets will this effect be more pronounced?

Jus' wonder'in

2008-12-29 11:58:58
85.   bhsportsguy
79 I think it was a marketing plan to get people into the park. For many of us, that season ticket money has been long spent by the games start in April and if you go to many games, you probably don't spend that much more if anything once you are at the game.

So the Dodgers realized that by having these smaller ticket pages, selling discounted tickets through third parties and promotions, they could probably sell on average 10-12 thousand tickets above their season ticket base. And those individuals are more likely to go and spend money at the ballpark.

2008-12-29 11:59:08
86.   ChicagoDodger
81 The problem is, we don't really know "what" Sheets really is.

===>>> See Jason Schmidt

2008-12-29 11:59:39
87.   Tripon
81 How many 23rd picks turn into Billingsley? There's enough baseball talent in a given year that a team, even with the last pick of the draft can find and develop talent.

I like Sheets, but I don't like Sheets on a one or two year deal since it won't bring back the value of the lost first draft pick in service time for the Dodgers, and a 3 or 4 year deal would most likely end badly for the Dodgers.

2008-12-29 11:59:56
88.   Kuo-fax
76 Getting Dunn and Sheets for about the price of Manny seems worth it to me. We'd gain the two picks for Manny, while losing the 17th for sheets. I'm with you on your math, Lex.
2008-12-29 12:01:43
89.   bhsportsguy
88 If the Dodgers don't sign Manny, who will? Perhaps this Dunn rumor is just an opening raise to see what Boras will do next?
2008-12-29 12:03:46
90.   68elcamino427
89
An opening raise - yes

An idle threat - Not likely.

2008-12-29 12:04:01
91.   Tripon
Also, we gave up our 2007 first round pick for Jason Schmidt, an ineffective, and injured player. Not that Sheets will be injured like Schmidt, but the risk and the likelyhood is that Sheets will spend at least once on the DL. We should get away for paying ineffective players, not dive right into for them.
2008-12-29 12:04:07
92.   cargill06
I'd have to say if the Dodgers sign Dunn you have to be impressed with what Ned did this offseason. Not willing to pay Boras' price for Manny and not panicking. Played the Furcal negotations very well, and paid for Casey Blake what appears to be fair market value. I just wish he would've been more aggresive about Randy Johsnon.
2008-12-29 12:05:26
93.   D4P
I'd have to say if the Dodgers sign Dunn you have to be impressed with what Ned did this offseason

I'm inclined to think that someone else is calling the shots.

2008-12-29 12:05:42
94.   ToyCannon
Our last two number one picks were Martin and Withrow and they are years away from helping us. Withrow has yet to pitch 20 innings for us after being drafted in 2007. For 2009 I'd rather have Sheets then another High School pitcher we snag with the 17th pick.

Sheets is a gamble but not a horrific one. As it has been pointed out many times, he misses parts of each season, not complete seasons and when he does pitch he has been one of the best.

2008-12-29 12:07:23
95.   Tripon
I don't think the Dodgers offseason would have gone so well if the Dodgers were aggressive. Being aggressive got them Juan Pierre, and Andruw Jones. Besides, we're in penny pinching mode and it wasn't like Randy Johnnson was giving a discount to anybody expect the D'Backs.
2008-12-29 12:08:42
96.   Bob Timmermann
But if the Dodgers signed Adam Dunn, Marty Brennaman would laugh at us!

I don't think that's a bad thing.

2008-12-29 12:10:20
97.   Jon Weisman
I would think that even if you're not half as cynical as me about these things, you'd expect that the Dodgers will soon deny any interest in Dunn, or it will be revealed it was just a smokescreen to wake up Manny.

But if the Dodgers do sign Dunn, that would certainly indicate a lack of rigidity on their part.

2008-12-29 12:12:02
98.   cargill06
95 I'm just saying that if the Dodgers are in the market for starting pitching, Johnson is the only one worth signing. Now there is really no one left that's any good (I believe, Ned already said they will not sign Sheets.)
2008-12-29 12:12:33
99.   berkowit28
Dipping in occasionally to the MLB TV channel showing previews leading up to launch on Thursday, I saw a preview of their "Home Runs" series. In addition to the expected "Shot Heard round the World" 1951, they included the 4+1 Dodgers 9-18-2006 game. It was just a snippet, but it didn't sound like Vin's version - someone more excitable. Would the Padres announcer really have been more excited for the Dodgers' home runs? I can't imagine they overlaid Steiner's radio call, nor a post-production script. We'll see soon, I guess.
2008-12-29 12:12:35
100.   das411
66 , there's a terrific scene in "Burn After Reading" in which George Clooney lives the dream and [spoiler alert] Brad Pitt...

(btw, will the '09 Giants really have the first trio of former Cy Young winners since Maddux left the Braves??)

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-29 12:18:09
101.   Lexinthedena
Has Sheets had a history of arm or problems?
2008-12-29 12:27:23
102.   Bob Hendley
50 - Funny you should mention Albert Belle. I trying to recall other instances of falling off the cliff a la Druw from my days of following the O's, and looked up Glenn Davis, as well as Albert. Belle was basically done at age 33, due to the hip thing, as pointed out here. His last three years he had OPS+ of 171, 142 and 109. Glenn, who was traded for Pete Harnisch, Schilling and Finley, had an OPS+ of 143 with the Stros' and then 113, 111, and 22 with the O's. Wiki says that he tried to make a comeback and later played ball in Japan. There were some claims that he was "blackballed" from the mlb for getting his jaw broken in a bar fight when he was with the O's (as I recall, the injury that was blamed for his decline was a problem with the trapeziod muscle).
2008-12-29 12:31:41
103.   Bob Hendley
Further, Davis' OPS+ of 22 was in 113 AB, as compared to Airship's 34 with 209 AB.
2008-12-29 12:33:59
104.   Bob Timmermann
My pedantry has caused another nickname change.

Or else Matt Kemp would be the Buffalo.

2008-12-29 12:37:07
105.   silverwidow
Remember, Asst. GM DeJon Watson drafted Adam Dunn.

Maybe he's calling the shots or something.

2008-12-29 12:43:55
106.   ToyCannon
102
I always thought Mike Lowell was his best comp.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lowelmi01.shtml
He bounced back, different type of hitters but a drop of 50 points in OPS+ at age 31 is significant. The Marlins were so desperate to move him that winter he was bundled with Beckett.
2008-12-29 12:44:14
107.   Daniel Zappala
Airship is such a perfect nickname, because Jones crashed and burned too.
2008-12-29 12:46:10
108.   Bob Hendley
Airship Jones has a nice ring to it. As I recall there was some dispute about what the photo on the tarmac revealed. I thought he looked better, but others thought he was the same old tubby. Anyone getting to see the Aguilas on the tube?
2008-12-29 12:48:01
109.   D4P
107
Thus, 12
2008-12-29 12:52:22
110.   Bob Hendley
106 - Yes, Lowell looks like a good match, now let's hope and pray that Airship has the buoyancy to bounce back as well.
2008-12-29 12:53:47
111.   ToyCannon
He's a Bumby.
2008-12-29 12:53:58
112.   Tripon
Last season, the Phillies refused to settle with the power-hitting first baseman. He asked for $10 million. The Phillies offered $7 million. Howard won. Which sets him up for a nice $15 million payday this offseason and sets the Phillies up with plenty of payroll questions going forward.

Do arbitration hearings operate in a vacuum? And do the Phillies suddenly embrace advanced defensive metrics in order to beat Ryan Howard this time?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Am4BSQtPlfGQ4WIkK.9ggwERvLYF?slug=jp-hsdphillies122808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

2008-12-29 13:01:32
113.   Bob Timmermann
Here's a shot of the Airship Los Angeles.

http://www.nlhs.com/images/high-mast/big_la_nose_stand.jpg

I've seen other photos were it was standing completely straight up.

Here's a shot of the Graf Zeppelin in L.A. when it was docked.

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics47/00073347.jpg

This is the Goodyear blimp flying over the new UCLA campus in 1930.

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics46/00042749.jpg

2008-12-29 13:07:10
114.   bhsportsguy
112 The arbitrator will see 48 and 146 and then look at what the Phillies put on the table, as long Howard keeps it in the $14-15M a year range, he will probably get it.
2008-12-29 13:09:14
115.   Tripon
114 Its kinda amazing how much defense is ignored in these hearings.
2008-12-29 13:10:08
116.   silverwidow
Sickels has the Indians' Top 20 up.

Santana is #1 with a B+ grade.

2008-12-29 13:11:16
117.   tjdub
113 Raise you hand if you thought those 3 photos would be:

1. Side by side looks at Andruw's batting stances

2. A pregnant tennis player

3. Shaq at a preseason workout.

2008-12-29 13:11:35
118.   LogikReader
99

I'm willing to bet they used Charley Steiner's radio call for those home runs.

Did the home run call start with "And there's a high drive, thats a way back...?"

2008-12-29 13:12:45
119.   ToyCannon
113
The blimp looks like a baby elephant next to the Graf Zeppelin. How long did it take the Graf Zeppelin to get from Long Beach to NY?
2008-12-29 13:15:20
120.   ToyCannon
116
Ya gotta love a deal where the guy we traded for Casey Blake is ranked above the guy they got for CC. The other players in the deal are a wash.
2008-12-29 13:18:54
121.   Bob Timmermann
It took the Graf Zeppelin 111 hours to go from Germany to New Jersey.
2008-12-29 13:19:33
122.   scareduck
102 - it's really hard to find anyone who suffered from a 90+-point drop in OPS+ because B-Ref doesn't allow joins.
2008-12-29 13:26:26
123.   Eric Enders
This line of nicknames has great potential. "Hindenburg" and "Spruce Goose" would also work well for Andruw.
2008-12-29 13:31:48
124.   Lexinthedena
123 Woa! I think I like "Spruce Goose" better than HIndenburg!

Then we can make a bunch of hurst jokes about McCourt when he refuses to sign Manny.

2008-12-29 13:34:03
125.   Tripon
Hey, John Elway wants to sell you a Toyota.
2008-12-29 13:37:54
126.   Jon Weisman
I must have really cowed everyone here for "Spruce Moose" not to have come up.
2008-12-29 13:39:09
127.   Jacob Burch
126 I was a minute too late!
2008-12-29 13:41:17
128.   Bob Timmermann
I was too busy flying from Idelwild Airport to the Belgian Congo in 17 minutes!
2008-12-29 13:41:50
129.   Lexinthedena
If Bob was around Michigan State in the 70's, would we have all ended up rooting for "Optical Illusion" or "Slight of Hand" Johnson?
2008-12-29 13:43:12
130.   Lexinthedena
This would be nice...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3798671

2008-12-29 13:49:10
131.   Tripon
Dodgers and Mets are in talks to send Andruw Jones to the Mets.

The Mets' intention, if they were to conclude a deal for Jones, would be to play the 10-time Gold Glove center fielder in right field, flanking Carlos Beltran. Ryan Church played most of the season in right field for the Mets last season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3798671

2008-12-29 13:49:43
132.   Harold M Johnson
I can't figure out why the Mets would want Jones, but I guess it might be worth a shot for them if they don't have to pay for it.
2008-12-29 13:51:01
133.   silverwidow
130 131 INCREDIBLY GREAT NEWS.
2008-12-29 13:51:10
134.   Lexinthedena
It makes no sense for anyone to take Jones in my opinion, but I sure do hope the Mets think differently.
2008-12-29 13:51:39
135.   Tripon
You know who the Mets could use to play right field? Lastings Milledge. Maybe they could trade Schrider, and Church for Milledge.
2008-12-29 13:52:41
136.   natepurcell
131

Give me Jonathan Neise!

2008-12-29 13:55:26
137.   CanuckDodger
131 -- My fear is that the Dodgers would send along prospects WITH Jones to get the Mets to pay a bit more of Jones' salary than they otherwise would. In other words, what we did to get the Royals to take Odalis Perez off our hands a few years ago. It is the same principle of "selling off prospects to save money" that was involved in the Ramirez and Blake acquisitions last year too, though in a slightly different permutation.
2008-12-29 13:56:41
138.   Tripon
137 They wouldn't be great prospects. At best, we'd send a guy like James Adkins. Low level prospect guys who would have a hard time reaching the majors.
2008-12-29 13:57:32
139.   Tripon
Mets fans must be throwing up already.
2008-12-29 13:58:18
140.   trainwreck
Jones and Adkins in one trade? Are the Mets our garbage men or something?
2008-12-29 13:59:54
141.   Tripon
140 If they were, we'd be able to ship out Juan Pierre as well.
2008-12-29 13:59:54
142.   Jacob Burch
140 After JP and Jae Seo, I'd say we're due.
2008-12-29 14:01:18
143.   Eric Enders
I just realized... it's pretty amusing that the Mets, after complaining about Saito's post-save celebrations last year, signed K-Rod of all people.
2008-12-29 14:01:40
144.   bhsportsguy
137 Quick, name the players sent with Odalis Perez.

The other result of sending Jones to the Mets (which I don't think will happen), it will lower the chance of Manny Ramirez going to the Mets.

2008-12-29 14:02:56
145.   Eric Enders
144 Pimentel was one. But point taken.
2008-12-29 14:05:41
146.   Lexinthedena
144 Manny is not going to the Mets. If he doesn't come here, he will be a Yankee. In fact, I think the Yanks are just trying to move Nady and one of Swisher/Matsui, and they will then sign ManRam.
2008-12-29 14:06:00
147.   Tripon
Bahahaha Mets fans were hoping they'd sign Manny, now they may get the worst player in the league.

Posted by: Scott Boras | December 29, 2008 at 04:03 PM

Scott Boras hates the Mets.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/dodgers-mets-ta.html#comments

2008-12-29 14:10:07
148.   CanuckDodger
144 -- Pimental and Blake Johnson, who may not have turned out great but at the time were more-highly regarded. But look, we traded Carlos Santana away to save money and now both BA and Sickels rank him as Cleveland's BEST prospect, which proves that the Dodgers will trade an elite prospect if they can save money by doing so. It all depends on much money the Mets will pick up, of course. The Dodgers essentially sold Santana for $2 million.
2008-12-29 14:11:46
149.   Tripon
I'd give up a guy like Lindbloom if it meant Andruw Jones is an ex-Dodger.
2008-12-29 14:14:31
150.   Zak
148 You keep saying the same thing over and over again without any regard to what the facts might be. By no sensible rationale is your last statement true unless you are pigheaded enough to think that Jon Meloan alone was enough to get Blake if we took on his contract.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-29 14:14:43
151.   Lexinthedena
The Mets have no OF depth, so how bout X Paul and the Spruce Goose for Bobby V's Groucho mask?
2008-12-29 14:16:08
152.   Bob Hendley
122 - You also have the issue of what amount of AB (PA) is significant. Straw went from OPS+ 112 in 1996 to -13 the following season, but with just 29 AB. Without that contract, hard to imagine a manager doing what Joe did and just sending a guy going nowhere out there there night after night.
2008-12-29 14:18:06
153.   trainwreck
I would rather have Carlos Santana than Casey Blake.
2008-12-29 14:18:13
154.   dianagramr
If the Mets are stupid enough to throw more bad money after their investment in Castillo .... then the Mets and Citi (we'll keep our $400M naming agreement despite laying off 53,000 people)Group deserve each other.
2008-12-29 14:19:52
155.   dianagramr
Let's see .... what other players did the Mets pick up past their prime ...
Carlos Baerga
Roberto Alomar
George Foster .... !
2008-12-29 14:20:58
156.   Terry A
I'm just not convinced that Andruw is washed up. I'd much rather deal Pierre and live with the year remaining of Jones' deal.

But that would all hinge on any other team valuing Pierre, I guess.

2008-12-29 14:22:35
157.   CanuckDodger
150 -- You seem to be ignorant of the facts, I'm afraid. I said nothing that was not said by EVERY analyst of the trade, national or local. The Dodgers got Cleveland to pay the rest of Blake's salary by offering better prospects. If the Dodgers had paid the salary instead, lesser prospects alone would have been involved. I never said Meloan alone. You are saying that. Meloan and lesser prospect, maybe even a couple of lesser guys, like Adkins for one. It is simply unheard of for a prospect as good as Santana to be traded for a rental of the quality of Blake when the team acquiring the rental pays the salary, which is standard. Get a clue before you post.
2008-12-29 14:22:41
158.   trainwreck
156
He is stinking in the Dominican Winter League, even with him being in shape.
2008-12-29 14:23:49
159.   Ken Noe
So how far is it from Citi Stadium to Lakehurst, NJ?
2008-12-29 14:24:22
160.   Jon Weisman
150, 157 - rules 2 and 6
2008-12-29 14:27:28
161.   Lexinthedena
155 Willie Mays
2008-12-29 14:29:26
162.   Tripon
155 Jesse Oronsco.
2008-12-29 14:30:56
163.   Bob Hendley
158 - Funny thing is that, while hitting .188 he does have an OBP of over .400. Haven't seen him, but he seems to have patience, but is perhaps swinging through the strikes.
2008-12-29 14:31:29
164.   Zak
157 All I am saying is that it was never 2 million or Santana as you said. The point is that you don't know what other prospects were discussed or even if Cleveland was willing to deal Blake without Santana. You just don't know. That is a fact. Everything else you are saying is something you believe that you are spewing off as fact.

153 I completely agree with that as well.

2008-12-29 14:31:56
165.   Zak
160 Sorry, I am done.
2008-12-29 14:33:07
166.   D4P
MLB.com's Ken Gurnick reports that in addition to Dunn, the Dodgers will soon open up talks with Bobby Abreu. They'd like to move Andruw Jones or Juan Pierre if they sign an outfielder.

Gurnick adds that pitching is Ned Colletti's priority - the Dodgers are eyeing Jon Garland, Randy Wolf, and relief help.

2008-12-29 14:34:56
167.   trainwreck
Some team please sign Garland, so we do not.
2008-12-29 14:35:09
168.   Ken Noe
166 http://tinyurl.com/72qerk
2008-12-29 14:35:39
169.   fernst2937
(160) Thanks for stepping in Jon
2008-12-29 14:37:44
170.   D4P
The Pro Bowl will be played one week before the Super Bowl in 2010

I wonder if the league would have any expectation that players on Super Bowl teams would participate in the Pro Bowl.

2008-12-29 14:38:39
171.   Jacob Burch
170 None. I don't think it's part of the release, but Peter King--who has said this was a long time coming--has said as much a few times.
2008-12-29 14:39:34
172.   natepurcell
166

Abreu wouldn't be too bad although he really isn't a good bet to hit more than 18-22 homerunes annually going forward.

2008-12-29 14:40:19
173.   trainwreck
What exactly do our assistant GMs do? Anyone going to bother to show Ned how bad Garland is. We have gotten burned on almost every free agent he has signed.
2008-12-29 14:40:26
174.   Ken Noe
Here's a longer Gurnick story on the official site:

http://tinyurl.com/7oahdp

2008-12-29 14:40:52
175.   Lexinthedena
I'm not as down on Garland as others are around here. I think he is a durable pitcher, who does well in the N.L West.
2008-12-29 14:41:48
176.   Lexinthedena
172 It would be like having another Ethier I think. Plus a few stolen bases.
2008-12-29 14:41:51
177.   regfairfield
A pitcher who thrives on balls in play with the Dodgers defense seems pretty scary.
2008-12-29 14:42:59
178.   Big Game
157 Couldn't it have been Blake for Santana and then Meloan for the $2 million?

Unfortunately Santana was redundant, with Russell Martin and James Loney filling the two positions he most likely will play at the major league level.

Also, if the Dodgers dont make the trade, do they make the playoffs? Who would they have at 3B for 2009? Santana could end up being JTD part 2, for all we know...I'm happy with Blake's 2008 for the Dodgers and I'm glad they retained him going forward.

2008-12-29 14:43:37
179.   trainwreck
Garland gets barely any strikeouts and his walks are starting to go up. Plus, he had an ERA around 5.

He seems to eat a lot of bad innings.

2008-12-29 14:45:07
180.   Tripon
You would have thought the Rays would show that a team can win with a young starting rotation. Nope. Didn't teach one dang thing to Ned Coletti.
2008-12-29 14:45:52
181.   CanuckDodger
164 -- I am not "spewing my opinion as fact." I am repeating the "facts" as reported by the national baseball writers and Dodger beat writers who commented on the deal, writers who have access to sources within the Dodgers' and Indians' organizations. I don't remember which writer said that the Dodgers saved $2 million by putting Santana in the deal, but I recall reading that figure.

And if you wanted to challenge what I wrote you could have done so without being so insulting. People disagree here while still being civil, but I address people the way they address me.

2008-12-29 14:46:14
182.   regfairfield
The Rays had like 17 people they could use as a decent starter. Right now Stults is our number five. We just need someone who can take the ball and not suck horribly.
2008-12-29 14:46:48
183.   delias man
163 I saw one game on TV. He was swinging right through fastballs at the letters. Pitchers there are wild, saw him get 2 walks in the game, one with bases loaded.
2008-12-29 14:48:11
184.   cargill06
What's the market for Wolf? Does he cost any picks?

Yes, Garland is unbelievably bad. If we wanted a pitcher of the quality we should've just signed Mark Hendrickson and save money and keep the picks.

2008-12-29 14:49:08
185.   cargill06
Yes, Garland is unbelievably bad. If we wanted a pitcher of Garland's quality we should've just signed Mark Hendrickson and save money and keep the picks.
2008-12-29 14:52:07
186.   Disabled List
Jon Garland is an expensive mediocrity. Bobby Abreu is 35 years old and declining. Pass on both.

And that Dunn rumor upthread smells like a leak from the Dodger FO, to send a message to Boras and Manny.

2008-12-29 14:52:11
187.   D4P
According to Fangraphs, Bobby Abreu's fielding was worth negative $25.2 million in 2008.
2008-12-29 14:52:55
188.   cargill06
187 So he should be paying whoever he plays for?
2008-12-29 14:52:56
189.   Jon Weisman
181 - "I address people the way they address me."

Even if one feels insulted, I ask for people not to respond in kind. That helps keeps things under control.

2008-12-29 14:53:58
190.   Lexinthedena
184 Garland is way better than Hendrickson. Hendrickson has been above average maybe twice in his career.
2008-12-29 14:54:18
191.   bhsportsguy
181 I believe at best it is conjecture since no one will go on the record but I am not bothered by it as much since rankings of prospects is certainly not an exact science.And I don't fault the Dodgers for trading players to save them some money if that in fact happened.

I think part of this hoo hah is the fact that prior to 2008, Carlos Santana was never considered a top prospect, he wasn't part of the group who came to Dodger Stadium that past January, he wasn't invited to Major League camp, and few if any national publications ranked him above 20th in the Dodger system.

2008 arrives and Santana has just about as good a first half as any Dodger offensive player in the past 5-6 years. And even that rarely got mentioned by national publications.

It took him being traded (as this "reported" piece to save the Dodgers from paying Blake's salary), to all of sudden make it out like the Dodgers had dealt the next coming of Joe Mauer or Russell Martin.

The Dodgers got the player they wanted in Casey Blake, won the division and made it to the NLCS. And now they signed him to play for another couple of years, they probably figure that without him playing in LA, he probably would not have re-upped with them since I believe their salary only matched what the Twins were offering.

I believe the last player to make a leap from being ranked in the 20s into a top BA prospect, as far as the Dodgers go, would be Matt Kemp, who was 27th going into the 2005 season and then jumped to 8th in 2006. (All of the top ten 2006 BA prospects for the Dodgers have played in majors, 9 remain on 40-man rosters, Joel Guzman, who I think will probably get another shot, remains unemployed for the time being.

Of course Baseball America is the same group who consistently named Andy Marte one of the top prospects in baseball.

2008-12-29 14:54:21
192.   trainwreck
Can someone explain to me why Peyton Manning having off-season knee surgery makes him more worthy to be MVP?
2008-12-29 14:55:47
193.   Jacob Burch
192 It doesn't.

Still doesn't mean he shouldn't be the MVP, though. It's just fluff to make the story more 'interesting.'

2008-12-29 14:56:14
194.   bhsportsguy
192 Because writers always love comebacks.
2008-12-29 14:58:14
195.   Ken Noe
184 The Mets largely have been mentioned for Wolf. He's a Type B, I believe.
2008-12-29 14:58:18
196.   Howard Fox
192 I think it has more to do with the team around him this year is subpar or injured, and yet he keeps bringing the Colts back from the brink week after week.
2008-12-29 14:58:18
197.   trainwreck
194
He never came back from anything. He has been good basically whole career and tons of guys get surgery in off-season.
2008-12-29 15:00:35
198.   Vaudeville Villain
Yeah, I do NOT want to see Bobby Abreu. His offense is declining and his defense is apparently sub-Raul Ibanez at this point in his career.

191

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because we got Casey Blake does not mean he is the reason we made the playoffs, nor is that a reason to trade Carlos Santana for him.

2008-12-29 15:01:26
199.   cargill06
I would think Rivers or DeAngelo Williams should be MVP. Williams finished 3rd in rushing and lead the league with 5.5 yards per carry.
2008-12-29 15:02:46
200.   trainwreck
MVP should probably go to someone like Ed Reed, DeMarcus Ware, or Steve Hutchinson, but none of those have a chance in heck of happening.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-29 15:03:06
201.   Lexinthedena
I think Michael Turner deserves the MVP.
2008-12-29 15:03:55
202.   cargill06
200 Steve Hutchinson, interesting. Look what happened to Seattle's running game when he left and look what happened to Minnesota's since he arrived.
2008-12-29 15:04:05
203.   I Love LA
186 - I agree and I hope that really is the case with Boras, but Boras has yet to crawl back to the Dodgers FO so I'm starting to worry.
2008-12-29 15:05:48
204.   bhsportsguy
198 But then you can say the same for Manny Ramirez or any of the other 30+ odd players who wore a Dodger uniform in 2008.

I get it, some here did not like the deal, fine. But to dismiss entirely as perhaps being one of the reasons why the Dodgers won the division and advanced into the playoffs is just not fair.

And I would say for the McCourts and for Ned, that was the overriding concern. (And probably for many of the fans who showed up at Dodger Stadium, watched, listened or read about them in 2008.)

2008-12-29 15:07:04
205.   ToyCannon
Xeifrank begs to differ on the negative opinion of Garland, I'm sure it was based on more sophisticated metrics then ERA. BaBlue used fangraphs to show that Dunn is barely better then Pierre when you incorporate all aspects of playing the game of baseball. If we do move Andruw Jones and the Yankee's sign Manny the Dodgers would do well to show some flexibility and bring Milton back home. Tell him to play left field like Manny does and never dive, leap into a fence, don't slide into the stands, don't dive into the stands, don't accelerate into the gaps, jog after extra base hits, and stay at 2nd base even if his doubles are still bouncing around in the gaps. It would also be important that Larry Bowa not try to keep Milton from going bananas on an umpire. If Bruce can blow out Miltons knee, I'd hate to see what Larry could do to him. He's a good bet to outhit Abreu/Dunn/Burrel over the next several years. Plus he'd be an excellent mentor for Loney and Kemp showing them how to keep their cool when things don't break the right way for them.

182
Lowe seemed to thrive with our defense in Sept and it was basically Loney/DeWitt/Berroa/Blake. Now it is Loney/DeWitt/Furcal/Blake.

2008-12-29 15:07:40
206.   Zak
181 I apologize if my tone was less civil than what I felt. The only objection I have is taking someone's speculation and calling it fact, unless of course you believe everything written or said by "beat writers" and "sources" is fact.

It feels like you believe that the Dogers screwed up in the Blake deal and you are entitled to your opinion. But the only thing I find objectionable is you stating speculation as fact and somehow coming out as knowledgeable on how the Dodgers arrived at the trade. But again, if my tone was less than civil, I apologize.

2008-12-29 15:07:45
207.   CanuckDodger
182 -- Do you think Stults would "suck horribly?" Here are the 2009 CHONE projections for Randy Wolf and Stults:

Wolf:

122.0 IP, 131 H's, 14 HR's, 50 BB's, 94 K's, 4.72 ERA

Stults:

144.0 IP, 145 H's, 19 HR's, 53 BB's, 110 K, 4.31 ERA

In short, Wolf projects to walk more batters per inning, have a poorer strikeout rate, and just generally give up more runs, while pitching LESS innings (because of his durability issues) than Stults.

And from a tools analysis, for people who think Stults has no "stuff," Fangraphs says Stults' fastball had more velocity than Wolf's in 2008. 89.1 MPH for Stults, while Wolf was around 88.

Now that we are really down to "Wolf or Garland," I think the position that Stults is an inferior choice to THOSE TWO is untenable. And consider that Wolf's asking price right now is 3 years at $30 million. No, he won't get that, but he is going to be a hell of a lot more costly than the $410,000 Stults would cost.

Once again Ned is trying to add a veteran for the sake of having a veteran, regardless of the matter of his talent and ability relative to the talent and ability somebody less experienced has.

2008-12-29 15:08:37
208.   trainwreck
This is Casey Blake's line with the Dodgers:

.251 .313 .460

If he helped us, it was not much.

2008-12-29 15:10:06
209.   Vaudeville Villain
204 Wasn't he replacement level offensively last year? With bad defense? I think we can safely say he was not the reason the Dodgers did much of anything last year.
2008-12-29 15:11:25
210.   Big Game
James Harrison is my MVP choice.
2008-12-29 15:12:40
211.   ToyCannon
204
It was a terrible deal. Terrible. The point isn't that Blake didn't help the Dodgers, the point is that we could have had Blake and given away different prospects if the McCourts hadn't become cheap at a very inopportune time. It does not matter that Santana was not thought of highly entering the season, the only thing that is important is what his status was on the day he was traded. If the Dodgers undervalued him at that point, it is a problem within the organization.
2008-12-29 15:13:06
212.   Eric Stephen
If the Raiders are indeed looking to hire Kevin Gilbride as their next head coach, the least they can do is also hire Buddy Ryan.
2008-12-29 15:15:55
213.   Vaudeville Villain
I think Matt Millen is the NFL MVP. He essentially guaranteed that sixteen teams would have a win. No player could have done that.
2008-12-29 15:16:23
214.   ToyCannon
208
Don't you have to take into consideration the hole we had at 3rd base when the deal was made. We could have promoted DeWitt but who would have played 2nd when Kent went down? Blake wasn't great but he was a world better then what LaRoche gave the Pirates the rest of the year.
2008-12-29 15:16:58
215.   Eric Stephen
208
.251 .313 .460

If he helped us, it was not much

Other Dodger 3B in 2008: .240/.323/.335

2008-12-29 15:17:18
216.   Lexinthedena
I have Matt Cassell in a keeper league, and I really hopes he ends up a Lion with the Pats O. Coordinator coming on as coach. Calvin Johnson as Randy Moss, Mike Furrey as Wes Welker.
2008-12-29 15:17:38
217.   trainwreck
212
lol I was just about to post how all the other teams are being attached to names like Josh McDaniels and Bill Cowher, while the Raiders want to interview a guy that could not even last a whole season as coach of the Chargers.
2008-12-29 15:17:42
218.   cargill06
205 He's looking at Garland's FIP ERA which is 4.52 the last 2 years (405 IP) which makes him league average. But if you look at Hendrickson's last 421 IP his FIP ERA is 4.40.
2008-12-29 15:17:59
219.   Howard Fox
Philip Rivers is the top rated quarterback, but his team is 8-8.

Drew Brees had one of the best seasons ever, but his team missed the playoffs.

Michael Turner put the Falcons in the playoffs in the year immediately following the Michael Vick debacle. He should win.

Peyton Manning makes the best commercials and ESPN loves him. He will win.

Plus the Colts have won 9 straight and made the playoffs.

2008-12-29 15:18:07
220.   Eric Stephen
214 ,215
TBLA Tag Team!
2008-12-29 15:18:22
221.   Zak
211 Is there any definite source that shows that the Indians were willing to deal Blake to the Dodgers for any minor leaguer other than Santana, with or without Blake's salary? Maybe I am out of the loop, but other than speculation or analysis by the like of Robo, Gammons or Dodgers beat writers, have either of the clubs come out and said what you are saying. I see people accept what you are saying as fact, but where is this coming from?
2008-12-29 15:18:50
222.   trainwreck
214
I think we could have given up a lot less to get similar production. A Ty Wiggington or something.
2008-12-29 15:18:53
223.   JRSarno
212 - Why not Rich Kotite? A reunion of sub-mediocrity.
2008-12-29 15:19:04
224.   D4P
I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL give the MVP to Tom Brady.
2008-12-29 15:20:01
225.   Eric Stephen
222
I'll grant you that, but that's a separate issue than what Blake provided the Dodgers.
2008-12-29 15:20:05
226.   Bob Timmermann
213
Actually the Lions only played 13 different teams. The Packers, Bears, and Vikings got to reap the benefit of playing the Lions twice.
2008-12-29 15:20:28
227.   Howard Fox
224 ...or Tony Romo...
2008-12-29 15:20:56
228.   Lexinthedena
219 Because it is basically a QB award, Manning will win, which sucks because Turner was absolutely dominant, and finished off so many victories with his legs.
2008-12-29 15:21:02
229.   trainwreck
215
More pop, less on-base. Yes, he was better, but by how much?
2008-12-29 15:21:31
230.   bhsportsguy
208 And what about the 3B he replaced in the lineup. Generously, he slugged about 100 points higher on average than the rest of the guys who played 3B the other 2/3 season.
2008-12-29 15:21:33
231.   Tripon
The MVP should go to Al Davis because only he could give us the Raiders season.
2008-12-29 15:22:27
232.   bhsportsguy
220 I would have been there sooner but I had to work.
2008-12-29 15:23:13
233.   JRSarno
With Lowe, Manny, and A. Jones potentially off our roster next season, would that leave any other Boras clients on our payroll? Not to give McCourt/Colletti any credit necessarily, but I could see the lure of extricating from the Boras orbit entirely.
2008-12-29 15:23:34
234.   trainwreck
And isn't OBP regarded as more important than SLG? No, I am not saying that his much higher SLG did not make him better, but I just do not think it was a whole lot.
2008-12-29 15:24:58
235.   bhsportsguy
233 But if he represents the best players, why would you want to be rid of him.
2008-12-29 15:25:28
236.   Big Game
202 Adrian Peterson may have a little bit of something to do with that.
2008-12-29 15:26:21
237.   ToyCannon
207
Baseball HQ projects Stults for a 4.97 ERA. That high ERA was based on the fact his 2008 3.42 was illusionary, they calculate his expected ERA would have been around 4.68.

Wolf projects 4.66 but with worries about the 90 IP spike and pre health history. Feels his awesome Sept was artificial. They are high on neither.

Garland 4.57 with over 200 ip.

You are certainly right, based on cost and performance, Stults is probably the answer over Garland and Wolf.

Then you have a real pitcher like Ben Sheets with a 3.51 ERA 1.17 Whip based on 174 innings.

2008-12-29 15:26:58
238.   Howard Fox
I was going to mention Adrian Peterson as well, but his fumbles almost kept the Vikings out of the playoffs.
2008-12-29 15:26:58
239.   cargill06
205 And if Dunn is barely better than Pierre how much better is Manny better than Dunn? Dunn is a .900 OPS guy and most metrics show him as a better defender and base runner than Manny.
2008-12-29 15:27:38
240.   Tripon
Scott Boras clients on the Dodgers:

Tony Aberu
Andruw Jones

2008-12-29 15:28:22
241.   trainwreck
239
Maybe defensive metrics need to lay off the crack?
2008-12-29 15:28:40
242.   Tripon
239 Left field at Fenway warps defensive metrics like no other. When Manny was with the Dodgers, he was just -2 in left field.
2008-12-29 15:28:50
243.   Howard Fox
I wonder why Boras would have Tony Abreu as a client. He seems to be going nowhere fast.
2008-12-29 15:29:14
244.   JRSarno
235 - From an organizational standpoint, we don't seem to be in the market of signing the best players anyway. But I guess involvement with him is inevitable, especially if one of our young studs ultimately decides to hire him.
2008-12-29 15:29:27
245.   trainwreck
Manny's defense in no way seemed as bad as it is made out to be. He will have a random lolly-gag every once in awhile, but he was alright.
2008-12-29 15:29:52
246.   Lexinthedena
237 I'm all for Ben Sheets. i don't understand why he is being so underrated.
2008-12-29 15:31:36
247.   ToyCannon
235
He represents the most expensive players, it does not mean he represents the best. It is just like the Yankee's right now. Just because they have the most expensive talent does not mean they have the best talent. How many Boras free agents kill the signing team compared to other agents?
Driefort, Zito, Jones just off the top of my head.
2008-12-29 15:31:42
248.   trainwreck
246
I am sure because of injury concerns, even though we brought back Furcal even with all his issues.
2008-12-29 15:33:11
249.   Lexinthedena
248 His injuries haven't been of the variety that would scare me off.
2008-12-29 15:33:24
250.   ToyCannon
245
That is because we saw him play hard every night. If you had seen him play the Angels while with Boston just a few months earlier you might have a different opinion.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-12-29 15:34:13
251.   Hollywood Joe
243

Try not to think of Scott Boras as a man (i.e. Lex Luthor) but more of a corporation (i.e. Haliburton). His companies service players at a variety of different skill / career levels and provide them with a variety of services beyond just basic agent duties.

As I am fond of saying...all revenue spends

2008-12-29 15:34:59
252.   trainwreck
249
Yeah. I honestly think if we added Sheets and Manny we would be favorites in the National League.
2008-12-29 15:35:16
253.   Zak
246 Pretty extensive injury history. Plus I would guess GMs would fear that he can make them look bad. His first semi-major injury and you can guess what the headlines would be. Plus, not even his biggest fans would bet that he will be injury free through whatever contract he signs.
2008-12-29 15:35:42
254.   trainwreck
250
I would hope he would not start tanking it on us.

Then again, he would still be a great hitter.

2008-12-29 15:36:00
255.   Lexinthedena
252 No doubt.
2008-12-29 15:36:21
256.   bhsportsguy
247 I do not vouch for this list's accuracy.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/scott-boras-cli.html

2008-12-29 15:36:53
257.   Zak
249 Really? His injuries worry me as a Dodger fan.
2008-12-29 15:38:34
258.   trainwreck
257
http://www.tarapfeifer.com/archives/2007/08/28/a-history-of-ben-sheets-lame-injuries/

NSFW

2008-12-29 15:38:37
259.   ToyCannon
239
Comment number 7 has your answer. Quite a big difference.
http://www.truebluela.com/2008/12/28/703376/mannywood-2009#comments
2008-12-29 15:40:17
260.   ToyCannon
257
I'm sure he'd miss time but I'll take 170 innings of Sheets over 210 inning of Garland.
2008-12-29 15:40:20
261.   CanuckDodger
Thought I might as well put this up now. Early in September, I posted my Dodger Top 30 Prospects list (actually it was 32, anticipating that we would lose two guys because of the Maddux trade). I always tinker with these lists up until just before BA comes out with their Top 30 (my point in doing such lists is to see how mine compares with their list, and I consider my list "frozen" once I have seen theirs). After a lot of thinking on the matter, my list now looks a lot different than in September. I hope I won't have to change it before seeing BA's choices:

(01). Andrew Lambo, OF
(02). James McDonald, RHP
(03). Ivan DeJesus, Jr., SS/2B
(04). Scott Elbert, LHP
(05). Ethan Martin, RHP
(06). Josh Lindblom, RHP
(07). Ramon Troncoso, RHP
(08). Josh Bell, 3B
(09). Chris Withrow, RHP
(10). Austin Gallagher, 3B
(11). Nathan Eovaldi, RHP
(12). Devaris Strange-Gordon, SS
(13). Xavier Paul, OF
(14). Jesus Castillo, RHP
(15). Geison Aguasviva, LHP
(16). Steve Johnson, RHP
(17). Victor Garate, LHP
(18). Pedro Baez, 3B
(19). Tony Delmonico, 2B
(20). Justin Miller, RHP
(21). Jon Michael Redding, RHP
(22). James Adkins, LHP
(23). Travis Schlichting, RHP
(24). Matt Sartor, RHP
(25). Paul Koss, RHP
(26). Given Kutz, RHP
(27). A.J. Ellis, C
(28). Brent Leach, LHP
(29). Jaime Pedroza, SS
(30). Kyle Russell, OF

2008-12-29 15:40:45
262.   Lexinthedena
What I mean is that he hasn't had any chronic arm or shoulder problems.
2008-12-29 15:42:13
263.   ToyCannon
254
I'm not sure he'd be tanking. I think he really does have knee issues and it precludes him from running hard without pain. He sucked up the pain to make a contract run. Just my opinion.
2008-12-29 15:42:36
264.   trainwreck
I thought Withrow had better stuff than Martin? And since neither pitched last season that is all we have to go on.
2008-12-29 15:43:44
265.   ToyCannon
261
Kenley Jansen just can't get any love. By next year at this time he will be our top catching prospect unless Delmonico actually makes the move we have heard about.
2008-12-29 15:44:52
266.   trainwreck
Man, Orr and Wall are disappointing.
2008-12-29 15:44:56
267.   Zak
260 The problem is that he has topped 70 IP only once in the past four years, and that was last year, when he ended the year injured and was unavailable to pitch down the stretch and in the playoffs.
2008-12-29 15:45:10
268.   Zak
267 I mean 170 IP.
2008-12-29 15:48:48
269.   CanuckDodger
264 -- Withrow also had an arm injury this year, though nothing too serious, supposedly. I take points off for that.
2008-12-29 15:49:49
270.   cargill06
259 But isn't 3 of those 4 years for Pierre measured as a CF'er?
2008-12-29 15:55:30
271.   CanuckDodger
265 -- Hey, it could happen, but aren't you putting too much stock in the precedent of Santana making big offensive gains going from the Midwest League to the California League, and the fact that Jansen is a catcher like Santana? It is not like there is a lot of precedent for what happened to Santana. I mean, if we are going with wishful thinking, maybe Preston Mattingly just needs to get out of the Midwest League and into the California League? He is still a premium athlete with tools.
2008-12-29 16:08:11
272.   Lexinthedena
What's the rundown on Jansen?...I know nothing about him.
2008-12-29 16:09:12
273.   trainwreck
I kinda want UCLA to play UConn in the tourney just to see the hilarity of Alfred Aboya guarding Haseem Thabeet.
2008-12-29 16:12:34
274.   ToyCannon
271
Not just that. I've heard great things about his catching skills relative to his age. He's got an excellent eye and is increasing his power. He had the 2nd best home run / ab ratio in Great Lake for anyone over 200 at bats at 9/247 and just missed beating out Jamie Ortiz a 1st baseman. He had the 2nd highest OPS on the team with ab's over 200 even with a .227 average while being younger then most of the team. I'm in no way saying he's going to have a Santana breakout but his low average seems to be keeping him underrated when you take into account he's a catcher.

And yes I do think the Great Lake environment is making our Low A hitters look worse then they are.

2008-12-29 16:12:56
275.   Harold M Johnson
Wow, the Hoyas have opened up a 15-1 lead on UCONN?
2008-12-29 16:16:37
276.   Tripon
Question, is there a reason why leagues are separated by low-A, and high-A? Wouldn't it make sense to rank them as A, AA, AAA, AAAA and bump them up accordingly?
2008-12-29 16:18:18
277.   trainwreck
Ricky Davis suspended 5 games for violating the drug policy.

This probably upsets no one. Not even Ricky Davis.

2008-12-29 16:21:05
278.   CanuckDodger
274 -- Santa and Jansen played in roughly the same number of games in the MWL, in the 2007 and 2008 seasons respectively. Their triple slash stats are similarly unimpressive, but what really sticks out to me is that Santana rarely struck out for a hitter with such a poor average, while Jansen struck out quite a bit, so it seems Santana was getting unlucky on balls in play, while that wasn't the case for Jansen. Santana was also a lot more likely to walk.
2008-12-29 16:21:18
279.   silverwidow
276 There is a big age disparity in the average low-A player (usually 19-21) and high-A players (21-23).
2008-12-29 16:23:30
280.   ToyCannon
278
True is which is why Jansen doesn't have the ceiling of Santana, but might he have a Napoli future with better defense?
2008-12-29 16:27:21
281.   Gen3Blue
Wow-- a lot of comments and I don't have time to catch up before I shoot my mouth off. But with Canuck---hear him in regards to prospects like Santana. And take this Met interest in Andruw with a 2 metric ton grain of salt.
I would be disappointed to say the least if we got Garland and Abreu. And getting Abreu w/o shedding Jones or Pierre would be intolerable.
Now I'll try to catch up.
2008-12-29 16:39:41
282.   Jon Weisman
"The Cardinal scored 20 points in the game's first five minutes and held a 20-6 lead with 15:40 left in the first half."

"This game was over in the first five minutes," Pat Knight said. "It was an embarrassment. We would have been better off staying home and calling in the score."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/29/SPLO1505P6.DTL

I believe that's true, as the score would have been declared 2-0, if I'm not mistaken.

2008-12-29 16:41:52
283.   CanuckDodger
280 -- Like Jansen, Napoli spent his age 20 season in the Midwest League. Napoli's OBA: .362. Jansen's OBA: .298.
2008-12-29 16:43:43
284.   bhsportsguy
Interesting tangent going on here in LA between former Bruin (Cowboy & 49er) Ken Norton Jr, now a linebacker coach for USC and Rick Neuheisal, current UCLA football head coach.

LA Times runs a story this morning where Norton wants to put at rest any rumors that he might leave USC to go to UCLA as defensive coordinator if DeWayne Walker leaves (Walker may be accepting the New Mexico head coaching job as I type this post.)

I have seen a lot of internet chatter about this topic and it is well known that when Neuheisal got the job, he offered a position to Norton but Norton turned it down.

Norton claims it was done to influence recruits, Pete Carroll chimed in saying something to the effect of bad karma come backs to get you in the end.

So this story is out there for about 6 hours or so, then UCLA/Neuheisal issues a statement where Neuheisal denies that he or his staff have ever uttered Ken Norton's name to a recruit. And while Neusheisal says he has a defensive coordinator in place, he wishes Walker luck in getting a head coaching job.

The funny thing to me is that before he closes the statement, Neuheisal throws out these closing lines if Walker leaves, "[Neuheisal] would consider several candidates for the defensive coordinator job. Kenny [Norton] probably would have been among those considered, with no guarantees. However, his [Norton's] quotes in the paper say he is staying at USC, so we wish him well."

2008-12-29 16:49:50
285.   trainwreck
I would not be surprised if Neuheisel inferred that Norton may join the staff.

I think Norton was told to do this by Carroll.

Carroll talking smack about recruiting ethics is hilarious.

USC is angry with Rick for going after their recruits.

2008-12-29 16:52:26
286.   Howard Fox
285 "their recruits" being defined as anyone anywhere with talent
2008-12-29 16:53:23
287.   Tripon
ESPN is saying that Tom Cable has a good chance of staying as the Raiders head coach for 2009.
2008-12-29 16:56:00
288.   Tripon
286 More like 'their recruit' = every damn running back within the U.S. border.
2008-12-29 16:56:35
289.   trainwreck
287
Because he actually wants the job.
2008-12-29 16:57:49
290.   Bob Timmermann
I bet bhsportsguy never misspelled Karl Dorrell's name.
2008-12-29 17:05:16
291.   Jacob Burch
If you go by strictest definition of MVP, Peyton gets it. Is it unfair that the biggest award is defined by "value" instead of "best--" and therefore, a position where a lot of the team's value derives from gets an 'unfair' share of awards? Maybe. But even if he's the biggest star, I don't understand what you could say to suggest he isn't at least as valuable as Turner.

I think the drop off from the Colts without Manning--even with a competent back instead of a Jim Sorgi--is a lot larger than Atlanta with another competent back, but that's up for argument.

I promise you the Steelers do just about as well with any average line backer instead of James Harrison. Ed Reed is an interesting choice, but I still don't think he's more than 2 wins worth.

I think it's a great year for the NFL and a lot of viable canidates--I just hate the idea that just because Peyton Manning is (deservedly) mentioned so often it should preclude him from the award where he clearly deserves to be in the top tier of canidates, if not the very top.

I'm all for the "Why is it just a QB/RB race" question for the Heisman, though.

2008-12-29 17:07:16
292.   D4P
Where's the Holiday Bowl chat...?
2008-12-29 17:08:58
293.   Bob Timmermann
Presumably people will chat about the Holiday Bowl tomorrow.

When it is being played.

2008-12-29 17:10:42
294.   D4P
I see.
2008-12-29 17:12:56
295.   Xeifrank
205. I just threw out Garland's name as a league average pitcher. Every team needs a Garland. I didn't check to see if we would lose draft picks for signing him. But talent wise if he were given a fair contract, I'd have no problem with him. I wouldn't lose sleep over not signing him either.
vr, Xei
2008-12-29 17:15:35
296.   bhsportsguy
290 Sorry about that Rick. And I have that man's autograph too.
2008-12-29 17:16:12
297.   Bob Timmermann
I have to be at work during most of the Holiday Bowl, so I will just get the excitement of following it online.
2008-12-29 17:16:24
298.   bhsportsguy
292 Hopefully, for Oregon's sake they don't party it up at Sea World tonight.
2008-12-29 17:17:35
299.   Bob Timmermann
I saw Jeremiah Masoli trying to land a carrier jet while drunk last night.
2008-12-29 17:17:56
300.   bhsportsguy
291 Only 1 non-RB/QB has been named MVP since the merger. That trend will not end in 2008.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-12-29 17:19:17
301.   Bob Timmermann
300
Mark Moseley?
2008-12-29 17:24:21
302.   Howard Fox
300 Lawrence Taylor?
2008-12-29 17:24:59
303.   Howard Fox
Alan Page?
2008-12-29 17:27:57
304.   Bob Timmermann
If bhsportsguy is referring to the Bert Bell Award, the right answer is Jerry Rice.

Moseley was the AP MVP.

2008-12-29 17:28:56
305.   Howard Fox
Lawrence Taylor was an AP MVP as well
2008-12-29 17:29:18
306.   Bob Timmermann
Wait, if it's the Bert Bell award, then there is also Merlin Olsen in 1974 and Lawrence Taylor in 1986.
2008-12-29 17:29:34
307.   Bob Timmermann
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/award_bba.htm
2008-12-29 17:31:13
308.   Bob Timmermann
I guess George Blanda was still a QB at times in 1970.
2008-12-29 17:45:11
309.   bhsportsguy
I was wrong, first, I thought Alan Page won the award (AP) before the merger. And once Bob said Mark Mosley, I knew I blew this question.

For the record: AP has given it out to 3 non-QB/RB, Alan Page in 1971, Mark Moseley in 1982 and Lawrence Taylor in 1986.

Pro Football Writers Association has been giving out an MVP since 1975 and 2 non-QB/RB have won it, the aforementioned Taylor in 1986 and Jerry Rice in 1987.

Finally, the Newspaper Enterprise Association has been polling players for an MVP since the 1950's, now a group of NFLPA reps vote for the award. Jerry Rice (1987) remains the only non-QB/RB to win that award.

According to Wikipedia, when "NFL MVP" is used without citation, it is believed to be referring to the AP version.

2008-12-29 17:46:27
310.   bhsportsguy
301 , 302 , and 303

You are all right.

2008-12-29 17:52:59
311.   bhsportsguy
Since 1999, the three awarding entities have only disagreed twice on who would be named MVP, in 2001, the AP and NEA both gave the award to Kurt Warner while PFWA gave it to teammate Marshall Faulk. Then in 2003, while the AP and NEA were giving out the MVP to both Peyton Manning and Steve McNair, the PFWA gave it to Jamal Lewis.
2008-12-29 18:10:09
312.   KG16
So the Dodgers have called Adam Dunn and also the Mets about trading Jones.

Wow, that's unexpected, sort of.

2008-12-29 18:20:39
313.   ChicagoDodger
No A. Jones to the Mets I guess.

That was quick!

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081229&content_id=3729835&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

2008-12-29 18:24:59
314.   Tripon
313 Not surprising, but it gave a brief dream for Dodgers fans, and caused Mets fans to recoil in horror for a day. Fun, if anything.
2008-12-29 18:37:02
315.   Ken Noe
313 the Dodgers would have been required to pay most of the remaining $22.1 million on Jones' $36.2 million, four-year contract.

I hope the denial is just as accurate.

2008-12-29 19:40:50
316.   Jacob Burch
My old TimBuk2 bag is getting worn and is mostly just my laptop bag these days. I need a new bag for my new bicycle adventures--any suggestions? I'd love to find a great bag shop in LA to try some out before I committ, as comfort on long rides is ideal.

Eventually I'll slap a rack on the bike and put panniers on it, but for now I was looking at Chrome or another Timbuk2--just a matter of trying to find a store to try them and others out.

2008-12-29 19:46:10
317.   Joe Pierre
I think if the Dodgers sign Manny, they won't have to worry about attendance.
If they don't, well that's another story.
2008-12-29 19:46:44
318.   Tripon
The Red Sox made a play to re-acquire Marlins superstar Hanley Ramirez after losing out to the rival Yankees for star free agent Mark Teixeira, league sources tell SI.com. But while the Marlins listened to Boston's overtures, Florida isn't anxious to trade its best player, and talks apparently have been aborted after no agreement could be reached.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/12/29/heyman.verducci.hanley.red.sox/index.html?eref=si_mlb

2008-12-29 19:51:52
319.   bhsportsguy
316 Well, there's 'Bag World" on 3rd. Then there is Bobby's Beautiful Bags, that's also on 3rd. Oh, and then there's Best Bags in the Universe, which is on 3rd in the Bagging Shopping Mall on 3rd.
2008-12-29 19:59:20
320.   immouch
313: what was interesting in the jones to ny mets rumor i read was the notion that people in new york felt jones "never fit in" in LA... if they're talking about his pants, perhaps...
but, alas, a 10 percent or so dip in bat speed is visible even in new york.
2008-12-29 20:01:35
321.   Brian Y
320. I wonder how bowled over the Marlins would have to be to trade Hanley? I wonder what type of package the Dodgers could make? Loney, Kemp, DeJesus, and Elbert enough? Potentially this would open up some holes but they are all replaceable. If we converted Hanley to CF of course. And of course, IF the Marlins would even trade him which I can't see a reason why they would for anything less than a Billingsley/Kershaw, plus Broxton, and Loney or Kemp.
2008-12-29 20:10:07
322.   bhsportsguy
321 No deal. First off, the Marlins did something with Ramirez they had rarely done before, which is sign him to a multi-year deal. By doing that, they don't have as much incentive to deal them since the uncertainity of arbitration is no longer available. Second, the Dodgers are not going to make deals with their MLB players.

Sure, they will trade prospects but not the guys that are being counted on to play right now.

Finally, you don't make a deal like that and then move that player unless you are the Yankees ( see A-Rod).

2008-12-29 21:13:05
323.   immouch
321: dunno. doubt the dodgers would do the deal you mention (and i'm not sure if they should). but i hope against hope that ned is lucid enough this week to at least have an idea of what the marlins might want in even a hypothetical ramirez deal. guys like that don't come along too often.

;

2008-12-29 21:16:51
324.   immouch
321: dunno. doubt the dodgers would do the deal you mention (and i'm not sure if they should). but i hope against hope that ned is lucid enough this week to at least have an idea of what the marlins might want in even a hypothetical ramirez deal. guys like that don't come along too often.

;

2008-12-29 21:17:41
325.   immouch
why does it pop up again? why am i a fool?
2008-12-29 21:32:29
326.   Bob Timmermann
It happens to the best of us.
2008-12-29 21:35:26
327.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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