When I was a kid, I had a Coleco "Head to Head" Baseball game. This was in the late 1970s. Each player got an imaginary lineup of hitters who had varying averages. And you could pitch and throw a fastball, curve, slider, or knuckleball I believe.

It didn't work very well and after a while you could guess what pitches were coming by the way the person who was the pitcher was moving his fingers.

My nephew got one of those old hand-held electronic baseball games for Christmas last year. He went nuts over it. But there were many high scoring games. We played games that were 25-23 in five innings.

A friend of mine had that.

Before I was given the gift of Strat-o-Matic, we played All-Star Baseball. With the two spinners? And the Wrigley Field backdrop? Did you have that?

I have an All-Star baseball game on the shelf underneath my coffee table. I rescued it from my dad's house after I died.

Someone needs to take the F-J disc out of Jim Tracy's hands.

Refresh my memory, was Elmer Dessens one of the cops in "L.A. Confidential" or was he one of the "Usual Suspects?"

You guys are old :-)

Back in "my day", we had a little thing called RBI Baseball on Nintendo. Tony Armas was king!

Yeah I remember having all those games. But I recall Strat-o-matic being the best, except for situations like Gates Brown, who was a terrific pinch hitter and occasional player, but his numbers were exceptional and did not allow for the fact he was not a regular, so I used him as a regular when I played anyway...

Random Dodger game callback

June 23, 1914

Brooklyn needed just 71 minutes to polish off Pittsburgh, 2-1, in a game at Ebbets Field behind some good pitching from Nap Rucker. But the win improved Brooklyn to just 23-28 and they were in seventh place, 9 games behind the Giants and only 2 games ahead of last place Boston.

Zack Wheat drove in both runs for Brooklyn in the first when he singled home Ollie O'Mara and Jake Daubert. Pittsburgh scored its only run in the eighth when Max Carey and Mike Mowrey singled. Carey scored on a force out from Jim Viox.

Rucker gave up just 6 hits and walked 2, but stuck out none. The veteran lefty would make only 16 starts in 1914 and finshed 7-6. Jeff Pfeffer was the staff ace with a 23-12 record.

1914 was a year of change in baseball and in Brooklyn. There was a new competitor to the AL and NL in the presence of the Federal League. And the Dodgers had a new manager and an added nickname. Wilbert Robinson, who was a longtime coach for the Giants John McGraw, had a falling out with McGraw and took the head job on the other side of the East River. Robinson would end up managing the team for 18 seasons and eventually become a part owner of the team. New York newspapers began calling the team "The Robins" in honor of Robinson. (Later they would be called the Robins in derision.)

Robinson got immediate results, improving the team's record by 10 wins, finishing 75-79 and in fifth place, 19 ½ games behind Boston, which rallied all the way from last place in June to win the pennant by 10 ½ games. Boston was the first team other than Pittsburgh, Chicago or New York to win the National League since Brooklyn won in 1900.

Brooklyn's offense used four very good hitters. Wheat turned in one of his typical strong years, batting .319 and driving in 89. Daubert batted .329 at first base to lead the league. Casey Stengel batted .316 with a league-leading .404 OBP and Jack Dalton contributed a .319 average. Brooklyn went 1-3-4-5 in the NL batting average race.

But pitching was still the name of the game in the Deadball Era. And the Brooklyn pitchers were good, but not great. And without a healthy Rucker, the team was going to have to find another ace to go with Pfeffer to be a pennant contender.

Thanks to the New York Times, BaseballReference.com and Retrosheet

From the Dodgers.com preview of the game:

"The Dodgers lineup again figures to be without J.D. Drew, who is nursing a sore knee, but it's unlikely that manager Jim Tracy will call on Olmedo Saenz for a day game after a night game, even though he had three hits and scored three runs Wednesday night. One option would be to play Jason Phillips at first base and catch rookie Mike Rose. "

Don't break our Olmedo!

Is a lefty starting or something? Not that that should be an excuse anymore. Is something wrong with Choi? We have two 1B "starters" and this is no time for both of them to be on the bench.

Re #6

I had a Strat-O-Matic year with Manny Mota, who as a pinch hitter had batted either high 300's or low 400's. He got considerably more at-bats with my team that year also!

I found the season with Mota...he batted .395 in 1977!

The Dodgers are facing noted Dodger-killer Brian Lawrence. The man who seemingly can get no one out other than guys in Dodger uniforms.

Izturis is 12 for 36 against Lawrence with a home run.
Kent is 2 for 9 with both hits being homers.
Werth is 3 for 8.
Choi is 0 for 5.
Dessens is 1 for 1 with a double.
Phillips is 1 for 2
Saenz is 0 for 1

Dodgers team batting average .262
Padres team batting average .262

Dodgers team runs scored 321
Padres team runs scored 321

I just posted an update above referring to the lineups. Is anyone listening to a broadcast of the game. Is Choi hurt?

If you have lots of free time on your hands, I highly recommend the MVP Baseball series of games on XBOX. Pitching is way easy, but the hitting takes mad time to get a hold of. Its almost too realistic, in that way. I was thinking for a kid, it might actually help them develop an eye for a breaking pitch, so if you have kids who play baseball, it might be good for them. Last years version was worse only because you couldnt hit with much power with lefties. This year I think they overcompensated, J.D. is a monster.

Against Dessens
Burroughs is 8 for 15
Fick is 2 for 5
Giles is 17 for 34 with 4 home runs
Greene is 1 for 5
Jackson is 2 for 4
Blum is 5 for 7
Nady is 3 for 6
Ojeda is 1 for 6
Roberts is 7 for 19
Sweeney is 1 for 4
Lawrence is 0 for 2

If Choi isn't hurt and Tracy pulls a, "0 for 5 is signifant, unlike 0 for 3" speech... heads will fall

The Cubs and the Brewers are tied at 3-3 and guys named Lee have driven in five of the runs and hit three home runs.

But now the Cubs are ahead 4-3 after their Lee scored the fourth run on a single by Ramirez.

The Lees have 42 homers between them now.

My game of choice in junior high was Nintendo "Baseball." No real teams, no player names, no real features at all. Unfortunately, I discovered the glitch in the game: When you played against the computer you could always reach the next base in a rundown. So once you had a runner on first you could steal 2B, 3B and home every time. But it was fun while it lasted.

As for Choi, he's looked bad at the plate lately, but that's no excuse for starting Edwards, Rose and all seven Ja(y)sons ahead of him.

Afternoon all. Let's hope Dessens does well today and that today's game isn't as draining as last night's...

Choi is officially in Tracy's doghouse. I posted a comment on how I thought Dunn struck out too much and got lots of adament replys from folks who argued that a K is just an out. However, could it be in Choi's case that not putting the bat on the ball is relegating him to the bench? Choi is 0 for 6 in this series with 4 K's. At least two of those were in crucial situations. Choi is also 1 for his last 19. This can't give the manager confidence.

Jeromy, people have mentioned that Izturis is like 5 for his last 50, yet there he is in the lineup, day after day, and in the leadoff spot no less. Ditto Repko.

and A Perez isn't playing anymore either...I guess his 10 game hitting streak was a bad omen...or maybe we are saving him for crucial and key bunting situations late in the games?

Izturis is in the lineup because there isn't an alternative.

At least Repko is off today.

Vin has said nothing regarding Choi, yet.

Repko's batting .190...what do you expect from a starting outfielder?

20 - Had a game on the Amiga that was like that. Execute a run and hit bunt, the throw would always go unsuccesfully to the leading base, allowing the bubter to get on also. Then you could squeeze all day long.

There probably isn't anything to say re: Choi...other than Tracy appears to be thumbing his nose toward the press box

What about Mike Rose? How can Choi possibly be sitting today?

Lawrence has a reverse L/R split this year. He's allowed an OPS of .695 to LHB and .785 to RHB. Of course, he three-year split is normal, .810 vs. LHB and .682 vs. RHB. This may be the excuse Tracy uses today.

The other excuse could be keeping Phillips' bat in the lineup while giving him a rest from catching. I have a tough time imagining that Phillips is a better choice than Choi.

Choi is undeniably streaky. But history shows that if you stick with him, he will work his way out of his slumps and get red-hot and hit for power. If someone like Izzy, who even when not in a slump is going to hit mostly singles, gets to play day in and day out, it's stupid not to give Choi the same chance.

It's not that Tracy has lost confidence in Choi. It's that he's never had confidence in Choi at all, because Choi ate JT's pet eel or something.

re 25-Repko is in center

It boils down to the fact that Tracy would rather have Phillips' bat in the lineup today than Choi.

re #32 - difference between Choi and Izturis, even if both are not hitting, at least Cesar is not a defensive liability

33
Darn it!
At least he's batting 8th.
At least I can't watch today.

re #32 again - and what is wrong with eel? one of the tastier dishes at the sushi bar

I'm thinking that Tracy is going to go with the reverse L/R split excuse. He's used it before and that would also explain why Grabowski is not in the lineup.

Antonio Perez is probably getting benched because he can't get a bunt down.

35- Even if we stipulate that Choi's defense is a liability, Philips is a better 1B than Choi? I think Choi gets a bad rap over defense. He's not a gold glover, but he's generally competant. I've never seen him screw up when he didn't have to move. Thankfully, most 1B work is standing still.

Grabowski's not in the lineup today cause he is voting in the Polish elections.

Giles has now dropped to below .500 against Dessens

#35: When compared to the other available options (Saenz and Phillips), I wouldn't label Choi a defensive liability. I'd rather have him at 1B defensively than either of them, even with the occasional mental miscue.

25 - Bob, not entirely true. Perez can play SS. As well as Izturis? No. But there is an alternative to Izzy, and that alternative has had the hotter bat recently.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not advocating that we drop Izturis during his slump and play Perez. I haven't given up on Izzy. Just pointing out that if JT is going to play Phillips instead of the cold Choi at 1B, playing Perez instead of the cold Izturis at SS isn't that much different. And if Izzy stays in the line-up through his slumps, there's really no reason why Choi shouldn't have that same opportunity when he's the more fearsome power hitter when hot.

That's 3 out of 4 good first innings this series.

I guess it helps that the Dodgers aren't facing one of the more fearsome offenses in the majors.
The Padres are good, but they're no Kansas City Royals.

Choi at first is Dick Stuart all over again...stonefingers

15 - I love MVP baseball. The pitching is easy to get a handle on (though against good hitters sometimes perfect pitches will get crushed no matter what you do) but the hitting is tough. I can tell were the ball is going but it just seems like a coin flip whether it will be a ball or a strike. On last year's game I had 150 HR with Pujols and zero BB.

43
Occasional mental miscue? if you consider only once an inning to be occasional....

On a different note, does anyone have the game on TV? How is Dessens's stuff looking today? The 2 Ks are nice, but the 21 pitches and the BB has me a bit worried.

46- I disagree. I don't have any evidence to back it up, but if anything, I think the rap should be two (or three) left feet.

The deal on naming any future cat Elmer applied only to Dessens getting a win against the White Sox.

Thank you Yhency!

49
that has you worried? Lawrence is mowing the Dodgers down with ease, and Dessens not allowing a run in the first has you worried?

44 - I often feel like Tracy will move Choi just to go him back in a slump so he can bench him. After his 6 HR, he has a two day slump where he goes 1 for 7 and Tracy benches him. He hasn't had a hit since. With all these injuries Choi should play everyday instead he is a pinch hitter and the first person to be pinch hit for.

51- My best cat ever was Kirby. He had a Repko-esque scrapiness about him.

I'm not sure why everyone is so keen on pushing the "Tracy hates Choi" theory.

While the reverse L/R numbers posted by Fearing Blue are probably not statistically significant, it's classic Tracy to rely on such numbers. Let's face it: 88.2 innings pitched is more than 11 AB.

#48: Come on, Howard. I know you don't like the guy, but I've watched just about every game on television and I can only recall 3 or 4 over the course of the season (all on bunts). Prior to this season, his career fielding metrics as well as all scouting reports pegged him as an above-average defensive 1B. This year he hasn't been very good, (91 season Rate2 vs. 99 career Rate2 ), but Saenz has been worse (80 season Rate2 vs. 97 career Rate2). And Phillips hasn't been very good over his career either (93 career Rate2).

52 - the fact Lawrence is mowing the Dodgers down with ease is why I'm worried about Dessens lasting a decent number of innings and not imploding. Chances are that we aren't going to put up more than a couple of runs today, so our pitching really has to come through.

The problem is that while Tracy will provide flimsy evidence of why Choi was benched he doesn't seem to follow similar lines of thought with anyone else. Choi is his sacrificial lamb to the god of small numbers.

56
Its not that I don't like him, hell, I don't even know him

Bob, you don't think Dessens had a problem being the only kid in Mexico named Elmer? Do it for the show of solidarity :)

57
okay, now you can be worried....

#55: I agree. But, it still doesn't make any sense. Lawrence's 3-year splits are clearly more significant than his half year so far.

I wonder why Lawrence has faced Dodgers more than any other team.

He has significantly fewer appearances against the other three NL West opponents.

Either JT has already given up on this game based on the lineup he's thrown out there or he thinks that Dessens can throw a shutout.

40, "I've never seen him screw up when he didn't have to move".. ha! he's also made some good plays, too. I think he may be a head case, but Tracy is a nutcase for not playing Choi more and either letting him figure it out or hang himself.

I was aggravated when he got in Kent's way on that weird play. I thought of this the other day when Vin said something about how Lowe was on his knees... I was thinking Vin was making a clever pun about praying, but he might have also been quietly making a point. That's what I got out of it, it should be instintive to get down. But most of the defensive flubs I've seen by Choi are the weird can happen to anybody things. Tracy is clearly unhinged. I'm still not quite on the FJT bandwagon, but I'm worried about the rest of the year.

Thank goodness the pitcher was up.

I mean it's not like Choi is like Sheffield in the clubhouse, is it? It appears like Tracy has some personal destructive vendetta against him, so even if that is not the case, it's not good for anybody.

Dessens poised to go a strong four innings today...

db, the original RBI Baseball for Nintendo is indeed the best game ever. I liked how the field was always post-rain delay.

Did anyone have the Parker Bros. Starting Lineup Talking Baseball game, or was I the only one?

I'm not yet on the FJT wagon, but I sure wish he'd come to his (or somebody else's) senses.

I guess Repko has become a good enough hitter to move from the 2 spot to the 8 spot.

68 -- The Parker Bros. games allowed long car trips to pass quickly.

oops. games = game

I remember Coleco Super-Action Baseball, with the weird controller shaped like a cutlass handle. You moved runners by spinning a small wheel, and the crowd noise was a random single whistling sound.

Bases Loaded 2 for the NES was great, in part because the NY team had a LH submariner that was unhittable. The LA players also had names that were derivative of Hollywood stars.

MVP Baseball is simply awesome, with the exception that it's nearly impossible for me to get a hit on MVP mode.

That said, the logic of not starting Choi in favor of an out-of-position .700 catcher is proof of:

(1) undisclosed injury [unlikely, unless it's a splinter]
(2) lunacy
(3) "Please Please PLEASE fire me so I can go manage in Ohio."

71 - I had a hard time getting through a whole game because I'd usually spend an hour setting the lineups perfectly.

I imagine that thing drove your parents crazy in the car. I can still hear the voice say, "Trammell, the DH."

67- I don't think there's a way he could be as big a sphincter as Sheffield was, speaking no more English than he does. Maybe Tracy resents his refusing to have a translater?

Is the Tracy "I sure wouldn't mind managing the Reds" idea just wishful thinking people have assumed?

Was Roberts always such a pull-heavy hitter, or are the Dodger pitchers just slow?

Tracy wants to get fired so he can still collect unemployment.

At this point, I don't mind my tax dollars being used to keep him out of the dugout.

Oh joy. Noisemaker day July 2.

Just out of curiosity where is Dan Iassogna?

I'm just imagining the conversations between Kent is going to start...

Was Iassogna at first the other night, too?

#62 - I don't claim it makes sense to anybody but Tracy; I just think he's using the same principle (as warped as it may be) for Choi and for Grabowski.

Game Over.

Ha, I had the same thought Icaros! Please please please give us some flukey runs AAA all-star team!

Since Tracy is starting all righties today, based on some meaningless 1/3-season splits, has Izturis been instructed to bat from the right side as well?

"Do I think this team would be champions of the PCL?

I can't answer that question."

The Dodgers seem to be hitting a lot of ground balls to shortstop today.

Little possible way to win. If we do, I'd seriously be dreaming.

It's amazing how guys like Lawrence and Woody Williams own the Dodgers year after year even when the roster has been turned over 100%.

Have the padres scored yet? I'm sure if the Dodgers had scored we'd be screaming jubilation.

85 - I can. I imagine our starters ERA would baloon to May type numbers, but considering how Nori, Chen, and Werth and every other scrubs turns into Babe Ruth down there I imagine we could score some runs. If only we could bat in Las Vegas and pitch in DS...

89- Yeah, Klesko hit a solo homerun.

88. I agree. The Dodgers are making Lawrence and Williams look like Clemens and Maddux.

If only we could bat in Las Vegas and pitch in DS...

Those games would take years, though.

Wow, Vinnie's version of the Pink Floyd concert I once saw at Anaheim Stadium.

#92: Our current lineup makes Lima look like those guys as well, so I'm not sure that it's the Dodgers factor at this point.

I don't think we've exhausted all the possible explanations for the Choi benching. For a day game in San Diego its always possible that there was a TJ run that went awry. Anybody spot HSC on Revolucion last night with a giant sombrero? After all, did David Wells pitch in any day games last year?

jim, your post had no predicate.

Yeah Jim, not all of us can hear Vin right now.

Two men on and no outs... I used to be optimistically hoping we could turn the usual double play into a triple play. Now I am just hoping that we don't load the bases before they hit the homerun.

Choi is NOT proving to be an above-average fielder this season. I have seen many games in person, and he has virtually no range in either direction. He resembles a redwood.

His footwork is bad; I've seen him start off with the wrong foot, plus he is just slow. I am not convinced he has good instincts, either.

However, I would be more forgiving of the defensive deficits if he put up 35 HR a year.

His only above-average skills are handling poor throws.

Greene must not be a very good bunter.

Okay, Dessens is gassed at 70-plus pitches, as expected. Anyone warming up?

Oh, that's right, we're not trying to win today.

We're being dinked to death.

As a white guy who was (inadvertantly) arguing in favor of the Dred Scott decision in the last thread, I feel it is my place to lay down the race card. If Choi's name were Harry Chandler, or Humberto Chavez, does he spend as much time on the bench?

However, I would be more forgiving of the defensive deficits if he put up 35 HR a year.

He'd do just that if his manager didn't refuse to play him.

Choi's HR/AB ratio is about 1/13.4 right now.

He'd theoretically reach 30 quite easily, In fact, he's on pace to hit exactly 30 as it stands now.

Thanks to Jon's ESPN head-to-head link for that.

Re 102 - Yeah, Erickson's up.

I'm not watching, but there'll be an Erickson sighting.

Choi needs to figure out what "situational hitting" is, exactly, and show Tracy that he knows how to do it.

Repko is hitting .193/.287/.360, but is apparently doing something the right way. Maybe he gives better massages.

....What a cruel joke =)

Why was Repko unable to throw out Burroughs in the scoring fly? It looked shallow on gameday.

Re 104,
Hee Seop should change his name to Harry Chandler. I bet that'd give him more at-bats.

111- It wasn't that shallow. I don't think he had any chance, and I'm pretty sure Drew wouldn't have gotten Burroughs either.

Yeah, Erickson's up.

Might as well just leave Elmer out there to die, then.

I remember an electric baseball game I had the same time that electric football (with all the players moving in random circles) was foisted on the kids in my generation. The baseball game seemed to work even more unreliably tan the football game.

Transcript of Colborn's trip to the mound:

Colborn: Well, the game is essentially out of reach for our offense, so, lets just work on some mechanics while you're up here.

Dessens: Did you see my 2 hit start last week?

than, not tan. It's amazing how you notice a typo the instant you click "submit"

88 pitches in 4 innings, wow. That's a complete game for Lowe.

It's not the 4 hits as much as the 4 walks that are disappointing.

3-0, yeah it's pretty much out of reach.

On the radio side, Rick Monday keeps quoting an Elias stat that says if a team draws a leadoff walk, their chances of scoring that inning go up by 70%. Huh? As opposed to what? Not getting a leadoff walk? Does anybody here know what stat he's referring to? He talked about it last night, too.

Thanks.

Hi all. How's Jaeson Edwards playing in left?

Dessens was just unlucky that inning. 2 dunkers for hits, and 2 RBIs on outs, one of which would have been a DP if it had been hit harder. Let's hope the Dodgers get some similar luck before this is all over.

meanwhile, we keep making outs on the first pitch.

The Dodgers have 1 out before Gameday even loads the freakin inning. Unbelievable.

that's two innings in a row of 4 pitches, 2 outs for brian lawrence.

Work picked a good time to distract me from the game, I see.

4 pitches, 2 outs for Lawrence... I guess Rose and Phillips didn't get the memo.

Thompson is apparently coming in for the 5th.

...and, another strikeout for scrapko.

too bad choi isn't scappy.

5 pitches for Jason Repko. This guy should represent the Dodgers in Detroit.

Lawrence on pace for a nice 2 hit,9 K sub 100 pitch complete game. Good to see we still bring out the best in the opposing pitchers.

moneyball forever:

C. Izturis SS 0-1
M. Edwards LF 0-2
J. Werth RF 0-2
J. Kent 2B 0-2
O. Saenz 3B 0-2
J. Phillips 1B 0-2
M. Rose C 1-2
J. Repko CF 0-2
E. Dessens P 0-1

I can't believe we've gone this far. Our cynicism is no longer unbearable or even just plain detestable. It's actually amusing. This is pathetic. Let us continue to wallow in the Dodgers spiral into the abyss. Whhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

So now Grabs is in for Repko (double-switch), and Choi still sits.

Choi had better be hurt.

If Thompson starts the inning, I'll wager that Tracy does not make the double switch, and has him leading off the sixth.

O.K. scratch that, though I'm not sure that Grabby leading off the inning is any better than Thompson. It is, however, better than bringing in Thompson, realizing later that he's due to lead off, then pinch hitting with the nearest Ja(y)son, then bringing in Erickson.

136--I'll take the bet.

133: stubbs, don't be absurd. Look at those names. How many of those guys were supposed to be starting when DePodesta put the team together? The answer is 4. Izzy, Phillips, Werth, Kent. And genius Tracy has managed to find a way to have two of them playing out of position. Repko, Rose, and Edwards should be in AAA. Saenz should be on the bench, esp. against a RHP. This has nothing to do with the GM. It has to do with injuries, and, on the margin to a manager with a death wish.

oops...my post got there too late...the offer was already off the table.

Nice inning by Thompson.

#131: Like it says on MLB.com, maybe we can vote Repko a one-way ticket to Detroit.

Wait just a second, here. I thought left-handed batters couldn't hit against Lawrence?

139-
What do Bradley and Drew have in common? They have both played more than 140 games only once. Building a team with paper mache is not Tracy's fault.

Now Grabowski is going to get another start at 1B.

Will he have Werth bunt?

Don't bother debating with stubbs, Go Bears. Once he is proven wrong he just disappears. Go read the last thread about his dream lineup where he forgot to factor in the need for a starting rotation.

Stubbs may not know stats but he has a point. DePo obviously does not take into account injury history when he buys players. Drew and Bradley have a terrible injury history. However Bradley is not paid much while Drew has an enormous salary. Penny had/has a history, as does Werth. These things should be taken into consideration.

Ugh.

Well, Bradley has only been a full-time player for what, 1 year? 2 years? Drew I'll grant you, but he was 2nd on the team in games played before this series. THe injuries have been to guys without injury histories. It's just bad luck. Why is it that people won't acknowledge the importance of bad luck (and good luck)? If you want to criticize DePodesta for having too weak a bench in place, fine, but to expect any bench to be of starter quality (that's why they're on the bench) is silly, especially when they have to start every day.

And playing Mike Edwards and pick-a-Jason ahead of Choi and Perez is just plain inexcusable. This team is depleted due to injury, but Tracy is going out of his way to put together the weakest lineup he can with the pieces available. I don't think he's aiming for the weakest possible lineup, but whatever his intention, that's what he's doing. OK, I guess it could be worse - he could start Robles instead of Kent...

Tracy has 5 righties in the middle of the lineup IN A ROW against a RHP. Does Tracy think we won the first 3 games of the series and it's time to rest up??

Bradley has been a full time player for two seasons. That's generally not a good metric.

GoBear, Bradley was a full time player in the minors where he suffered injuries and tantrums. Drew is expected to play everyday, he makes 11 million. I expect the bench to be starter quality because DePo picked players who were going to see a lot of down time as starters. Lo and behold, our bench is getting enormous playing time.

Let me get this straight. Thompson's going to go to the minors this weekend, and Erickson will stay?

148 - Fair enough, but even players who haven't been injured before can easily become injured, so it's usually pretty hard to predict.

Shawn Green was healthy his whole career until that shoulder problem came out of nowhere and sapped his power forever.

#154: I was just about to post the same thing. It's ridiculous.

Injuries are hard to predict, but easier to predict on players with injury histories like Bradley, Drew, and Werth. I've been saying since spring training that this outfield was a huge risk.

147. Sorry, you're right. I think I need to eat some lunch. That bait looked more enticing than it should have.

148: Again, I grant that Drew was risky. But some injuries raise red flags for the future (like his balky knee), while others are irrelevant. There is no way that Werth's broken wrist on a HBP was predictable. Same for Bradley's torn finger tendon. These are freak injuries, not inevitable outcomes with fragile players.

I think most of DePo's moves are great, and then he makes a few moves that are just insane.

Repeat after me, Jon. Erickson is doing a great job, a great job.

Let me get this straight. Thompson's going to go to the minors this weekend, and Erickson will stay?

Did Vin say that? Makes no sense to me.

156 - I can only hope that this was a make-or-break audition for Thompson as a reliever, that he has passed.

147-
My dream lineup? Thats not my dream lineup, I was just supposing what Dan Evans would have had if he hadn't been dumped. I doubt he would have offered Beltre to the Padres for Sean Burroughs and a minor leaguer before last season like Depodesta did.

154, 156: Well, Thompson needs work, and until today, Tracy hasn't given him any for a while. I still don't see the point of keeping Erickson around, even if JT has promised that he'll only be used to mop up in blowouts.

#133 - You're missing the point. It's not that these guys that are starting now were supposed to even be our bench players.

When the season began, our bench was expected to be Ledee, Grabowski, Bako, APerez, Saenz. Pretty decent group there.

Edwards, Repko, Rose, et al weren't even supposed to be on the ML roster, let alone regular starters.

So you're penalizing Depodesta not for having weak backups, but for having weak backups for the backups!

I'm sure if someone did a statistical analysis of injuries they would find that there are some players who are going to suffer more injuries than others. Can anyone really say that there weren't any league average outfielders on the market who haven't had years long history of injuries before the season started? It's ok to take a risk with one or two outfielders, but all three?

Um, how many pitches did Lawrence make in that inning? This is starting to look worse than the Lima game, except that this one is more predictable due to the lack of whaddaya call 'em, players, in our lineup.

161 - That's been the scuttlebut all week in the print media.

So if Tim Wallach gets credit whenever we do something good, can we get upset with him now that our hitters swing at everything?

159 - Dodgerkid, and with that, we come full circle to the first thread of this morning. If you haven't read Jon's post and the ensuing thread, I recommend it.

Sorry: "scuttlebutt"

Agree with 159.
Depodesta has made some incredible moves (mostly of the small variety). Some of his moves are just not defendable unless the money situation is so bad that is all economic.
28 million annually tied up in Drew, Lowe and Penny is not promising, unless we go on another rookie of the year run.

I did read it. You mean to tell me Christina that no one is allowed to repeat points to emphasize them? Threads would be a lot shorter on this site if that were the case.

169 - Sure.

28 million annually tied up in Drew, Lowe and Penny is not promising, unless we go on another rookie of the year run.

Huh? You mean a top-10 OF who hasn't been on the DL all season and our two best starting pitchers?

168 - I'd only read about Ross being called up to replace a 12th pitcher, who I assumed was Erickson.

Hasn't Thompson been hurting, though? Maybe that's why he'd be the one to go.

Man this is getting to be a surly crowd around here. Doesn't everyone know that's what families are for?

Huh? You mean the outfielder two incredibly well run franchises gave up on?

Wow. We now have an OF of Werth in center, Edwards in left, and Grabowski in right. Good thing Thompson is inducing GBs.

If we don't wrap up Penny, who do you propose is our first starter? The only truly good arm that goes on the market this year is A.J. Burnett. Considering Eric Milton makes 8 million a year, he could easily command 13-14 million dollars a year. Penny would make at least 10 million on the open market. If we don't wrap our guys up, we need to count on Houlton and Thompson as permanent solutions.

I quit talking to my family years ago, Marty :-)

173 - of course repeating points is allowed. But since you didn't post in the earlier thread this morning, I thought you might've signed on for the game and not had the chance to read the prior thread yet. I pointed it out to you only because there was a good discussion there related to what we're talking about now, that you would probably enjoy reading, that might give you additional fuel for the current ongoing debate.

(Though I do think that repeating points to emphasize them follows the law of diminishing returns.)

I'm definitely in the minority on this site because I really don't blame Tracy for that much. He's incompetent clearly, but then again so are all managers to some extent because they follow a way of doing things that is steeped in tradition rather than logic. I blame DePo for some of the rampant injuries to this team, bad luck for the rest.

Is that Robles' first extra base hit?

#153: DePodesta did acquire a starter quality bench. Unfortunately, we've had so many injuries (including on the bench) that we're onto our second (or third) string bench. Here was our projected bench coming into the year:

2B/SS/3B: Antonio Perez
LF/CF/RF: Ricky Ledee
1B/3B: Olmedo Saenz
LF/1B/C: Jason Grabowski
C: Paul Bako

Besides Saenz, all of our bench players have spent significant time on the DL.

Every time I read "First Baseman Jason Phillips" my brain sort of twinges. (No doubt because Jasons belong in the outfield, not a first, as everyone well knows.)

And I gather Phillips is playing fine; no dig on him, it's just jarring.

Huh? You mean the outfielder two incredibly well run franchises gave up on?

Had they been able to afford him, I'm sure the Braves would've tried to keep Drew. He had a fantastic year for them.

I know you have some Chipper Jones quotes you always like to bring up, but I also recall hearing some strong praise from Bobby Cox.

Ooh, a true Grabowski principle right there.

And by "playing" at the end of 186, I mean fielding, because I'd be hard pressed to say anyone is approaching "fine" on the offensive front today. Except Oscar Robles.

Aside from Tracy benching Choi, and all their attendant issues, can anyone nominate the last time we put out a lineup quite as bad as that one? Not in form, or whoever is batting wherever. Just in the quality of players from 1-8 (or 9, if you want to include Dessens). Any ideas?

As far as Thompson over Erickson, my hate for this team, Tracy, DePodesta, etc. is beginning to lack boundaries.

With Choi and Perez on the bench the first two PH are... Grabbo and Robles, widely regarded as two of the worst hitters this side of 2003.

"Huh? You mean a top-10 OF who hasn't been on the DL all season and our two best starting pitchers?"

The Braves and Cardinals got rid of a top 10 OF...not any time soon.

Our two best pitchers don't mean much when they are going against Weaver, Odalis and Erickson. I hope for 17 million they are better.

I've never thought much of Bochy as a manager. As dodgerkid suggests, he's as guilty as anyone in terms of going by the (anachronistic) book too often. But:

We've heard that he's way below league average in sacrifice attempts (good). And in this series, anyway, he seems to have taken out his starters at exactly the right time - BEFORE they melt down, at the first sign of trouble, and not AFTER.

I think $28 million for Drew, Lowe, and Penny is a steal, especially given market prices these days.

That being said, I cannot fathom ANY reason why you'd keep Erickson and send Thompson down. I'll give Depo full credit for wisely locking up solid potential free agents at good rates, but he deserves to be knocked about for this incomprehensible attachment to Erickson.

186 - So if Choi changed his name to Jason, would he be catching or in center?

Why does Tracy keep having people bunt!

ARGH!

RHP coming in . . . police action over?

Please stop bunting. It's not like Izturis hits into many DPs.

Re 192--
And they are 2 for 2 today

hahaha, again with the failed bunt.

Is Izturis bunting? Because that would be just hilarious.

Our two best pitchers don't mean much when they are going against Weaver, Odalis and Erickson. I hope for 17 million they are better.

Who would you rather have, stubbs? List some actual names and salaries.

Clement and Radke don't count because they didn't want to play out west.

NO!

Down by three in the eighth, a bunt by your speedy leadoff hitter? That's in no book that I know of.

C Izturis bunt popped out foul to third.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

Actual question -- I remember when the Red Sox signed Wade Miller all felt it was a no-downside steal. Anyone know how that's working out?

gameday hates the sacrafice too. It refuses to post Izzy's at bat

So Izturis bunted, down three runs in the 8th? Makes sense.

Where in the book does it say that you're supposed to bunt the losing runs into scoring position?

Down by 3, 8th inning, tying run at the plate, no outs, top of the order up?

Of course - Play for one run!

I don't even have the energy to discuss a choice to bunt when we're down BY THREE.

206 -- It's official. Tracy does it only because he can. It doesn't have to make sense any more. Screw all of us who knows better. He's going to pilot the ship straight into the iceberg.

you know this means that instead of abandoning the bunt, tracy is gonna make all the players practice extra hard.

#206: Good point, Jon. Playing for 2 runs when you're down by 3 doesn't make much sense.

In 2,230 career plate appearances, Izturis has grounded into 30 double plays.

By the way, Jimmy, you were free to bat for Mike Edwards there.

208 - He missed a month or so, then has posted about a 5.5 ERA as of a couple weeks ago.

206 -- how about this one?
http://tinyurl.com/9mzu5

I agree that bunting wasn't the brightest idea... but can anyone on the Dodgers lay down a freakin bunt?!

A Kent slam here gets JT off the hook

I imagine a sick game of chicken between Depo and Tracy. JT is daring Depo to fire him by deliberately minimizing the team's chances of winning. Depo is waiting for the media to turn on JT so that the firing is not seen as "unfair." Meanwhile, the team circles the bowl. At this point, with all these injuries, Depo may have just decided that no change of any kind will make this team into a contender, so why not let Tracy hang himself?

That's probably all BS, but sometimes conspiracy theories are comforting.

221 - sure, there's one man who can. He's sitting on the bench.

Do you feel like in a time like this, you kinda don't want Kent to come through, if only because it might validate Tracy's strategy in his own demented mind?

If they get to Rose, PH Choi, move Phillips to C.

time for a professional strikeout.

time for a professional strikeout.

224 - I doubt Jim Colborn could still lay one down.

223 - I'm not one for conspiracy theories at all, but that's intriguing.

At this point, is any position player left on the bench besides Choi?

221 -- NO! So why can't we just move on?

223 -- DePo is going to get crucified for firing Tracy. There is no amount of Tracy idiocy that will change that.

Hence, the Cincinnati Kid Option.

228 - Yeah, none of those minor league ABs...

Wow, didn't see that coming. Would be nice to have that other out though.

223
I like your theory

UGh, now Tracy comes out smelling like a rose. Well, his strategy certainly was full of fertilizer.

Looks like gameday is a little ahead of itself. There have been two pitches to kent, the last a ball in the dirt, and kent has found his way to first.

pinch hit choi?

A broken watch is right twice a day.

#208: I wish the Dodgers would have signed Miller. $1.5 million is a very small bet for a good starting pitcher coming off season ending surgery last year. So far, Miller has been mediocre, but mediocre starting pitching has been a lot more expensive than $1.5 million a year.

Was Izturis bunting on his? Tracy must have been crazy to be bunting with 3 runs down. It seems that Kent and Saenz will take Tracy off the hook. But it sure was a waste of one out. Also, it looks like Tracy wants to KEEP BUNTING until we get one right. This is regular season, the bunting practice should have been done in spring training.

Is there some reason why we can't score runners from second on ground ball singles with 2 out?!?

Sportsline is refusing to post the results of the Saenz AB, I think in protest of JT.

guess not.

re:32.
" it's stupid not to give Choi the same chance...It's not that Tracy has lost confidence in Choi. It's that he's never had confidence in Choi at all, because Choi ate JT's pet eel or something. "

i'm sure the eel thing was an accident. right now, asian choi-fans are pissed off enough to eat tracy's dog; but they would never do that because the dog shows signs of intelligence, unlike the owner.

and subbing in antonio perez for choi to bunt again last night... contempt? or stupidity?

Why would this make Tracy right? Just because we score three runs despite giving up an out?

Meanwhile, Choi probably could have gone 0-4 at first.

God damnit Olmedo, now we have to see stupid ass "Saenz" puns tomorrow.

Have Weaver, Saenz, Lowe, or Werth ever had their name in a headline not be used in pun form?

I think the Dodgers losing lately has really twisted Tracy's logic even though it was weird already. We win in spite of him. Tracy's weakness really shows up in close games where manager's decisions has a big factor in deciding who wins or loses. It may be time for Tracy to go.

Phillips is a decent hitter, for a catcher. He should not ever be playing 1B. Just ask New York.

I must be on the Padres site...the Dodgers just scored 3 in the 8th to tie (in a game that looked like Lawrence would dominate to the end) and you all sound like you are at a funeral!

Steve is right about Tracy, though. The same injuries that allow (most of) us to cut Depo some slack (this isn't the team he bargained for) gives Tracy a free ride. He's playing with house money here. All wins are evidence of his genius at doing something with nothing, and no loss is his fault, because after all, what could we expect with this collection of misfits?

The smart thing, which happens much more here than in the mainstream media (and understandably so) is to recognize that managerial moves matter on the margin, and that managers shouldn't be judged on wins and losses any more than pitchers should. Managers should be judged on their "component stats" Problem is that it takes close scrutiny to figure out what those are, since there's no box score for managers.

"Grabowski is very deep in right field. If you saw Grabowski out there, you'd think maybe you were in Colorado." -Vin Scully

Or, perhaps you'd think Carrara is pitching.

It may be time for Tracy to go.

Perhaps...what does everyone else think about this idea?

dark clouds gathering overhead.

I can see it now: Carrara (L) 0.0 IP

funny how things have changed since last September...

then it was DePo being crucified for the trade bringing us Choi...

now it is Choi our savior being mistreated by Tracy

This team can't bunt and can't not give up a lead off walk.

Aah. You can always rely on Gio...

We should be getting offense from 1st base and Choi is better option than Phillips. So why was Phillips starting at 1st base. Does Choi need a rest against RH starting pitcher?

Hey Icaros, what about Tim Hudson, he was more than available. Please save us the DL comment, he'll be back any day and is much better than Lowe and Penny.

257
yes we can, we are really good at giving up lead off walks

Why Gio instead of Duaner?

According to Steiner, Old Maid told Tracey he is ready to play today by saying" I'm ready Skip, I woke up this morning feeling sexy."

Monday started making "I'm too sexy for my shirt" jokes.

Me? I'm going to cut my ears off now.

250 - We knew Carrara would be coming in. We also would've liked the chance to score more that inning, but Tracy's not a greedy guy.

256 - I think it was seperate groups who did the depo crucifying and the choi sympathizing

In case you've just joined us, there has been some discussion today about Choi not being in the lineup, and about whether Tracy should hold onto his job.

260 - We made a play for Hudson, at one point I think ESPN reported that the deal was all but done. We just got outbid by the Braves.

Thompson looked good today but it looks like dodgers will send him down and keep Erickson. Is this crazy or not. What keeps Erickson on the roster. Maybe he's blackmailing Depo on something. I can't understand it.

Hey Icaros, what about Tim Hudson, he was more than available. Please save us the DL comment, he'll be back any day and is much better than Lowe and Penny.

Okay, that's one, but he wasn't going to sign an extension past this season because he wanted to be closer to home.

Who else for this season? And who replaces Hudson next season?

#265: I wonder how many threads that synopsis applies to :).

So should Kent get himself ejected now? Or with a lead?

I"ve been here reading periodically all day...

I just was making a point that most of you have done a 180 on Choi since September

LAT, putting Sanchez in after last night would not have been good. Yes, I would have turned Sportsline off, but that only means I don't jinx him. It doesn't make me a good luck charm for him. I can't make him succeed in situations he would normally fail.

Gio has a fresher arm, and I AM a good luck charm for him.

267
maybe DePo and Lisa have a thing going

I can barely read your posts through the rosey feeling of actually scoring some runs. What is this feeling... happiness?

I just was making a point that most of you have done a 180 on Choi since September

I think you're wrong, Howard. The Choi supporters are the ones who've always wanted to see him play.

The Choi detractors are the ones who think Tracy can do no wrong.

Howard, I really think you are off base on the Choi thing. Most of the people on this board were screaming about Tracy sitting him last year too.

273 That was good one.

264: That's right, but there's a bigger point here. No one believes Choi would be the team's saviour. As Jon has articulated repeatedly, Choi is a good player with flaws, and everyone recognizes that. But he is also clearly better than some of the dreck being trotted out there every day. No, he's no saviour, but his playing every day, or nearly so, would give the team a better chance to win than they have with him leading the team in butt splinters. Choi is a symbol of Tracy's warped logic.

And this is ignoring the belief that Choi would actually improve if he weren't jerked around so much.

HA! So as I type this, Tracy brings Choi in to PH against a lefty. I'm glad to see him, but this is quite the opposite of "putting him in a position to succeed." Perez is available.

Here is your chance Choi. If you don't hit a HR, we won't see you again for a week.

268-
i would need to look at who was available and for how much..obv Clement, Miller, Pavano and Lieber come to mind.

I think Hudson not signing with us past this year is b.s...money talks and so does playing in a big market.

keep in mind we'd still have the duke and mota to trade for a starter this year.

256- And I don't think there's been much Choi-is-our-savior talk. He's good enough to play every day. Benching him does no good--his trade value has got to be lower than it would be if he were full time. It's a bad PR move, too, for the reason 245 pointed out.

Howard, I'm surprised you don't think that DT readers have always been one of the most sympathetic groups toward Choi, from the moment of the trade. I myself thought it was viable but risky - and that was one of the more negative reactions.

Choi is not doing anything to make Tracy like him any better.

275
Icaros, I think you just like to argue whatever point I make....

Ummm...I love Choi, but why wasn't Perez hitting there?

Saving Choi for 1 pinch hit appearance is a waste. Choi is not a very good situational hitter. Sanchez is warming up. I think Tracy is using Sanchez too frequently lately. I wonder what Sanchez pitch counts are lately. I hope we don't burn him up and cause another injury.

See, Choi gets a chance against lefties, what are we all complaining about!?!?

At least Rose managed to make contact.

And now, with the lefty on the mound, Choi gets the shot and Antonio Perez sits. So much for platoon advantage.

287,
Ah, so that's Tracy's "logic" for bringing Choi in just then.

LOL, tracy brings him in against hammond now.

either the conspiracy theorists are right, or there IS no strategy and tracy is sitting on the bench with a pair of dice to guide the way.

#278: As much as I argue for playing Choi, I agree that Perez made a lot more sense in that situation. L/R matchup as well as getting a guy with speed on the bases.

I think if we read back to last September, we will find the prevailing negative opinion toward Choi...it may be lumped in with the "why did we trade LoDuca" sentiment, but I recall Choi and injured-Penny and DePo bearing the brunt...

I guess Perez is in Tracy's doghouse.

... Jeezus, Tracy's unbelievable in this game. Rare form, even for him.

272 Christina, you have again proven yourself a valuable Gio good like charm.

273: Hmmm would I want my wife to sleep with the boss to save my job? In the Great Escape when Ali McGraw did it to get Steve McQueen out of jail it seemed okay. But Erickson ain't no Steve McQueen. In fact he is the anti-McQueen.

Sanchez is coming in? (turns off Sportsline)

There wasn't a chance of getting Hudson even for this one season. Beane knew Huddy wanted to go to the Braves, and respected his wishes. (Some might bash Beane for that--I personally don't lean either way on it. On the one hand, baseball is a business. On the other hand, it was a classy gesture towards a man who'd been an ace for the team for years.)

Tracy is not putting Choi to PH against LH pitcher instead of starting against RH pitcher. I guess Tracy is going against the BOOK now.

296
I was kidding, I think....

There is NO WAY Choi's part-swing was a strike!

How about this for logic...Perez is the last guy on the bench (assuming Drew is unavailable). He brought in the homerun hitter with nobody on base and is saving the hitter with a good average for a situation requiring a single.

perhaps he wanted to save Perez for position flexibility in extra innings?
we have four guys in the lineup right now that started their careers as catchers.

291 -

I agree, except that dice would come up with the right answer 1/6 of the time...

Whew, maybe Sanchez will get out of this innning.

We are about to lose because of a sacrifice bunt

What a play!

Okay, maybe we might turn this season around. Been a while since this many good things have happened at once.

Do you think Tracy uses computer analysis to make these decisions during the games.

LAT, I think you mean "The Getaway" not the Great Escape.

I think Depo's moneyball doesn't really use bunts but Tracy is stubborn and trying to prove that bunts work even if none of the Dodgers can lay down a decent bunt. I think Tracy is trying to get back at Depo for putting together this team.

Clement, Miller, Pavano and Lieber come to mind.

I already addressed Clement--he's out.

Miller was injured coming in and hasn't done anything yet.

Pavano made it known to everyone he wanted to be a Yankee, and he hasn't been nearly as good as he was last year.

Lieber seems like a good choice, but you'd have heard a lot of whining about his injury history.

I think Hudson not signing with us past this year is b.s...money talks and so does playing in a big market.

Not true, ask Clement and Radke. The Braves don't have the funds to match a lot of teams. Hudson signed with them for cheap so he could be close to home.

keep in mind we'd still have the duke and mota to trade for a starter this year.

Probably wouldn't get anyone nearly as good as Penny this year, since Mota has been awful.

You have lots of criticism, but you haven't studied the reality of the pitching market in baseball. If you come up with any other realistic ideas better than what we have, let me know.

293 - Howard, not to pull rank ... but I'm going to pull rank, and go with my recollections of the prevailing sentiment in 2004 regarding Choi. Majority sympathetic, minority mad at DePo.

310 - If he was trying to drive home a point, he's certainly failing.

310

I am no fan of Tracy, far from it. But there is no way someone associated with a professional team....player, coach, manager...is deliberately sabotaging things just to get even with someone

What's the score/situation now?

312

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