Amen.

I have lived long enough to have learned these three things:

1) I never will have learned enough.

2) I learn more from people who have a different opinion than those who agree with me.

3) I learn nothing from sarcasm and insults.

Well put Jon. I have learned a great deal from the many intelligent posters here, not to mention had a lot of laughs. I would hate to see the level of quality you have established start to deteriorate.

Related to the game from Bradley:
"No outs, you have runners at first and second and the big bats coming up, it was the right thing to do.

"I don't think I would have hit into a double play. I would have hit it or struck out."

Tell that to Tracy, Milton. In 240 plate appearances this year, Bradley has grounded into 2 double plays.

"There have been some comments on this site that in my personal opinion have been total crap. But there has not been a single commenter - not one - who hasn't had something thoughtful to contribute." I don't know if you were thinking of me specifically when you said that, but it made my day. I'm not completely thoughtless--I have value! 8^)

I was a jerk yesterday. I'm sorry. Won't happen again.

Better look out boko or Jon will trade you to Athletics Nation for a commenter to be named later and cash considerations. 8-P

5- What's the DT equivalent of a 10-5 player? I've been here since Spring Training--close enough? I might need a contract extension before I okay'd such a deal.

I also would like to apologize for a comment that I made today. I made the mistake of trying to speak for more than just myself and it was taken the wrong way. I love the knowledgeable community here and have become comfortable that the majority share my opinions. I felt like the 'community' was threatened today when confronted with what I considered to be illogical statements, and overreacted in my attempt to preserve my sanctuary. I have seen similar forums overrun and turned into nothing more than a nasty 24/7 rant-fest, and I desperately don't want this site to regress to that point.

I apologize to those to whom I spoke, and those whom I spoke for. Just understand that it was a gut reaction. Apparently days like this happen occasionally, but this is the first time I have seen it to this extent here so I wasn't ready for it.

Now, that being said, somebody please fire Jim Tracy.

Regarding Uncle Miltie's comment-love the nic-name. I understand the point that the chance of Bradley hitting into a double play were small and giving up the out in that situation would be considered by some not the right move. However, besides Bradley supporting it, the move gave one of the better clutch hitters this year 345 for Sanez with the bases loaded a chance to win the game, additionally it also gave the Dodgers a chance to win the game via a wild pitch, balk or a walk. Even if one thinks the move was a total bonehead play at some point the players play the game and for this at bat Saenz did not deliver.
In my mind there is much to critiscie Tracy for this year but not this decision. The Dodgers are both a flawed and badly injured team and each game they lose illustrates that

8. Milton's bunt was not a horrible call for the reasons you stated. wasting perez was a bad move, though.

Indeed wasting your best pinch hitter in a lefty righty thing was bad and obviously hurt later when Tracy had to pinch hit Weaver in the 11th..In reading the trade deadline stories, most indicate that one reason why trades weren't done was the fact that so many teams feel they are still in it. Given this fact wouldn't MLB be better off moving the tradedeadline up to either Aug 15 or the 31 and forgetting about the non-waiver deadline? Love to hear some good rational-I know Sabean said it should be moved last year.

Really, what is the point of a trade deadline in the first place? I suppose we wouldn't want teams on the last day of the season dumping players who would be free agents to playoff teams. Actually, that would actually make things really interesting for those who love trade rumors and following the GM side of things, but it would still probably create too much chaos for those who want to follow a group of players.

How about keeping the rule that anybody you add to your major league roster after Sept 1st can't go on your playoff roster, but besides that anybody can trade whoever they want whenever they want?

I haven't been thinking about this idea for more than a minute so there are probably some valid reasons why it's a bad idea, but I'd be interested in hearing them.

More on the topic of the post, I'd like to apologize for any snideness in my posts, not just yesterday but really throughout the season.

I think that in the whole squabble over "who fired first" - and I agree with Jon that regardless of who did fire first the response should be to make the discussion civil rather than fire back - we (the pro-SABR, pro-DePo, anti-Tracy majority on this site) overlook ways in which our common rhetoric and running jokes can be inflammatory for those who have the opposite opinion.

Words like "heart and soul", "chemistry", and even "clutch" have become derogatory terms to many of the more cynical sabermatricians at this site. Now, I think all of those words are overrated and no way to evaluate talent in running a baseball team. But in an atmosphere of near-constant sarcastic jibes at the "scrappy" school of thought and its followers, it's not hard to see how people on the other side of the fence could come in thinking that they are being personally attacked from the get-go. I think one of the keys in seeing eye-to-eye with the other side is realizing this.

Now, that absolutely doesn't mean I think it should stop. This place would absolutely lose a lot of its character (some of its "heart and soul", so to speak) without the "scrappy" jokes and the snide Plaschke rejoinders and the FJT! chants.

What it does mean is that the anti-Moneyballers are going to have to resist the natural urge to get too acidic even when it seems that everyone else is already against you and already being snide about it, and the pro-Moneyballers are going to have to learn to recognize when someone offers a different perspective, to respond rationally and analytically instead of emotionally (after all, that's what we pride ourselves on , right?), and to tone down or shut off the jokes and sarcastic remarks and, as Jon said, pour water and not fuel on the fire.

Hell, if Google Boy and Logan White can reconcile their differing perspectives and philosophies and move forward in a constructive and civilized manner, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to.

here is a little piece from the latest plaschke masterpiece:

"He said he talked to more than a dozen teams. He said they offered to throw in money to complete one of the deals. He said he was close on three different things.

"We offered some of our biggest guys," he said. "In the right deal, we talked about just about anybody."

But he seems reluctant to part with members of the Jacksonville Five, the Double-A prospects who include pitchers Chad Billingsley and Edwin Jackson, infielders Joel Guzman and Andy LaRoche and catcher Russell Martin.

If the Dodgers stay close, he may regret that decision."

so is that the consensus nickname for our blue chip prospects? its kind of catchy. what happens when they move up though?

Since very few deals were made at the trading deadline, a quick check of newspapers throughout the country show that most GMs have received opprobrium for their inactivity.

Interesting that Plaschke refers to Billy Beane as "dreaded" though.

It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

It is not surprising that the print media were unhappy about the quiet trade mart. The interest of media qua media is action, controversy, blood (if appropriate). The media abhors inaction or dog bites man stories. So playing into the fan's justifiable frustration about how the team "failed to take the opportunity to improve itself" makes the story almost write itself.

It is a lot easier to write about something that happened than something that didn't happened.

It's interesting that Plaschke isn't in Acceptance. Because he was on Opening Day. Actually he was in Acceptance a year ago after the Lo Duca trade.

The Mets attempts to deal seem truly media-driven. They are four games out of the wild card and have four teams ahead of them.

But back in the world of the NL West:
1) Can the DBacks hold on to a lead when they are -79 in runs scored?
2) Will the Padres ever get any confidence back?
3) Why did the Giants acquire Randy Winn?
4) How many losses for Colorado?

Re #7 -- I think I did much the same thing. I generally don't aim sarcasm at any poster in particular, but I let one guy have it a couple of times. There was sort of a Monty Python-like quality (without the humor) to some of the argument that was going on that exasperated me and a few others. I apologize for those of my comments that stepped over the line.

Re: 12 -- I'd add this to your comment: The Dodgers are a losing ballclub, regardless of their pennant chances. Losing sucks. Jon calls this site his "outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball." Many fans deal with losing by flaying the current regime. DePo has rationalized the current state of the team, and the majority of the posters on this site basically agree with his conclusions: This isn't the team he planned, injuries wrecked that team, but if addressing the injury-created holes means giving up the best of the team's prospects, forget about it and be patient. Nobody finds that satisfying, but to some fans, accepting that rationale amounts to unconscionable toadying to the current regime. The motto of most Dodger fans, not just here but everywhere I go, is "question authority." That's why I love 'em.

Sometimes, like yesteday, that questioning can be aggressively illogical. The culture of this site has usually been: defend your arguments, and do so rationally. But this site is also an "outlet" for Jon and other fans to express their rage, and rage is not supposed to be rational. This site should have room for both great analysis and rage. Best of all is when they come together; when its hit your lips, it's sooo good.

It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

No kidding. I'm afraid to turn on WFAN at lunch today. It's going to be rant city. I heard they're boiling tar and collecting feathers down at Flushing Meadows.

I'm going to take responsibility for the loss yesterday, because I was the one who didn't turn on Gameday until I went to check the score, and noticed it was 5-5 in the bottom of the ninth. No sooner had the window come up when Olmedo hit into the DP. Then I didn't close the window until Alvarez loaded the bases. It's my fault. Sorry, all.

Jon, I missed yesterday's thread, so I have no idea what was said, but as someone who mostly lurks anyway, I do appreciate this site and its regular posters a lot, even though I tend to be pro-Tracy (although I think he had a real bad day yesterday), and am still not really sold on either DePo or Choi. It's witty, intelligent conversation, even when I don't agree with what's being said.

What happened here yesterday? I'm sorry to hear that quality of inter-action dropped to a level on par with the message boards for some big corporations I happen to peruse or even some of the ones my wife has showed me. We always get a kick out of the vitriol spewed on these B & C class sites. It has made me proud to part of a community with such intelligence and insight... I have learned so much.

Please don't blow it people. Don't make all of Jon's (and yours!) hard work for naught.

And that's all I have to say about that.

DePo: please fire JT asap!

I'm glad Ledee redeemed himself, but why pull Perez to begin with? Maybe JT knew Weaver needed some batting practice and extra innings with the Cardinals was as good a time as any?

If they do fire JT, who would you want as the new manager? I'm not saying that I want the guy fired, but am curious who the next manager could be.

What about Jim Leyland or Davey Lopes?

BC

14 - It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

Anything in particular here that I missed, or just unhappy in general?

20 - Good question. It may be why DePo will wait until after the year is over. It will seem more prudent than FingJT now and having an interim. My hope is that DePo is creating a short list right now and will work hard to get a new manager before the winter meetings (assuming he FsJT).

21.

Just look at a Mets thread over at Baseball Think Factory. It'll give you a good idea of the attitude that Mets fans have.

20. orel

21. They were initially promised Alfonzo Soriano (by the media). Then they were promised Manny Ramirez (again by the media). Now Minaya is being blamed for not getting either deal done, despite the fact that Theo would've been totally off his rocker to trade Manny.

Jon,

You're swimming against a cultural tide here - and I congratulate you for doing so. Was 'gonna take the hit-and-miss opportunity to post the other day, and after doing the one-day catch-up I allow myself, decided I didn't want to be part of it. I've tried, on more than one occasion, to indicate there's a vast middle-ground in the basic majority-minority conflict here, and that folks who might be identified with a "side" can still offer surprising insight on a particular issue. I've also tried to indicate that the folks who are most thoughtful about the new ways of seeing the game tend to understand better than newer converts the limitations attached to them -
just as the old ways of seeing, now better understood as limited, are not absolutely useless.
I see myself as hybrid (liked Paul's hiring conceptually, now think, though it's not set in concrete yet, he's working the Peter principle hard, as opposed to his mentor up north) - yet occasionally feel unwelcome here; my consistent absences mostly have to do with other priorities, but this weekend was not the first time I've turned away.
Just one more thought: "sarcasm" comes in many shapes and sizes and colors. You've sometimes employed a fairly civilized brand yourself, and so have some of my favorite posters. Don't toss baby with bathwater.
Finally, hope your message has a long-term impact, to match your long-term patience.
As for all you other blue gals and guys, as always, be well.

20, 24 - What about Yeager. Former Dodger catchers seem to make decent managers.

24
You are right. And to think I was talking about how he would be a great manager just last week. I think he would be and do great back in Dodger blue.

BC

27 - Well, it depends on who you ask.

Piazza might retire after this year, how about him? He'd blast some AC DC in the clubhouse, create a loose atmosphere, which must be a good thing. His game time decisions couldn't be any worse than Tracy's, right? Plus, he really likes the deli right by my workplace. That's a plus.

The sad thing is that I don't know if I'm joking.

29 - Yeah, that Tracy seems to be so out of favor that Piazza looks good now is serious business.

I picture Piazza as an into-the-sunset sort of player not really interested in managing.

I was thinking of Yeager simply because we could usurp Plaschke's Jacksonville 5 with Jacksonville 6.

So the Dusty Baker rumor is nothing right?

Thanks for (hopefully) reining in the negativity, Jon.

I thought it curious that Piazza didn't get moved this weekend, although the Mets were undoubtedly preoccupied. He was, reportedly, available for a mid-tier prospect, and yet no takers. Will be interesting to see if he is involved in a waiver deal after the Mets officially fall out of the pennant race.

As for our non-moves, at least it's comforting to know that DePo (love him? hate him?) recognizes how not-very-good we are. The spin, however, in today's Times ... I guess people will believe whatever they want to believe about whether he's being truthful (pursued lots of players, have no financial restraints) or not.

31. the dustster has denied the rumors and is supposedly upset.

20. I wouldn't mind Bobby Valentine.

wow...I miss a couple of days and things blow up here just like with the vendors and the guards outside the stadium...

Jon, well said, but I suspect its been building to whatever happened yesterday for a while...I recall people taking personal shots at me and others periodically for quite a while.

Everyone seems to forget, its just a game for us, maybe not for the players and coaches and GMs, but for us, it is just spectator sports...and our livelihoods do not depend on the outcomes.

I've been a die hard Dodger fan since the late 50s. Its been more hard times than good times, but that never stopped me from rooting for the old home team. I have always felt the players and management did the best they could to put a winning product on the field. Sometimes their best may not be good enough, at least for my taste, but at the level they are at, it has to hurt them terribly not to win.

Can we win this year? Sure we can, given the division we are in.

Is the local newspaper skewed against the Dodgers? Sure it is.

Are we playing poorly day in and day out? Of course we are.

So what, I still love baseball and the Dodgers.

I enjoy this site and most of the commenters. In this day of increasing isolation due to the internet and being further and further away from friends geographically, this site is a welcome outlet for the frustrations arising from the play of our boys in blue.

As long as we all remember, its just a game.

Well said, Howard.

I'm sorry Jon.

Is the local newspaper skewed against the Dodgers? Sure it is.

I don't think that's the case. They might be healthy skeptics - which, given the evidence presented so far, seems appropriate - but they probably do more than their fair share of Dodgers puff pieces (see Oscar Robles profile) than any other outlet.

The worst part of Plaschke's piece is:

"Assuming that the National League West winner will still have to play at least .500 baseball, is this a team that can play 11 games over .500 for the rest of the season?

Of course it isn't.

DePodesta said that adding Milton Bradley, Jose Valentin, Dioner Navarro and Jonathan Broxton in the last two weeks is like adding new players.

Of course it's not."

"Of course" it's not like adding new players, you see, when players that were not on the team for several months are now on the team it is nothing like adding new players. When players who have never been on the team, join the team; that is not like adding new players either. What are those players then Billy boy?

Completely off topic, but I am looking at the fact that there are two months left in the season, and I believe the Dodgers playoff hopes are realistic. I think the NL West will be won by a team at .500 or just over. The Dodgers will have to go 34-23 the rest of the way to get to .500. This isn't promising if we look how they are trending:
April: 15-8; May: 11-17; June 11-17; July 10-17. However, I think the remaining schedule is favorable. If the Dodgers can handle their division by going 6-3 vs. Colorado, 4-3 vs. SF, 4-2 vs. SD, and 4-2 vs. AZ that will get them 18 wins. Most of these games will be in September when Drew is back. I believe they can win 5 of 7 from Pittsburgh, which gets them to 23. This means they will need to get 11 more wins from WA, NY Mets, Phil, Atl, Florida, Hou, and the Cubs. For fun I will give them 4 of 6 vs. WA and the Mets for some early momentum. This means they only have to take about one game from each of the remaining east/midwest teams. The math is there. Anyone with me?

37 - fine, and just how good is DePo doing today, according the the Times...while Stoneman is enlightened for not breaking up the winning formula he has on the field (forget that they have given away their entire lead to Oakland)

McCourt buys the Dodgers and the LA area rights for $430mm and he is cheap and miserly....Moreno buys the Angels and Anaheim/Orange County for a fraction of that, lays claim to adjoining territories, he is the big spender, sharing the wealth.

No bias here... No skewed reporting here...

I don't believe the Times is 'skewed' against the Dodgers. The problem is that the Sports section overall isn't any good. The puff pieces annoy me as much as the slams. I wouldn't mind the Times' zapping the Dodgers on a daily basis if it was done thoughtfully and with some style. The shadow of Jim Murray looms over this entire generation of Times sportswriters, columnists and editors.

Wow, go away for a couple days and there goes the neighborhood.

by the way, anyone else see the article in the Ventura County Star yesterday on the Dodger kids in their farm system? Nice piece, a lot of info on Travis Denker...

#43,
Is that online? I'd want to read that.

#41,
I think you're right. There are plenty of fair criticisms of DePo et al to make without resorting to cheap shots and stereotypes.

Thanks for the post Jon. I wasnt here much yesterday, as it was starting to look ugly and i stayed away. As a member of the somewhat anti-depo crowd it often becomes not worth the fight. The end all is that we all want the Dodgers to win and whether its JD Drew or Cesar Izturis that leads us there, we should all remember that.

Is anyone else sick of Plaschke beginning at least one sentence every article like this:

It says here that....

It's the double-edged sword of all the notoriety that DT has received recently. To quote Big E. Smalls - "Mo' money, mo' problems".

On the deadline yesterday, the story was the non-story. No "big" deals going down, however 2 players that were traded that I think could've greatly helped the Dodgers and I'm disappointed that Depo wasn't able to make anything happen.

1. Matt Lawton to the Cubs for Jody Gerut. Jody Gerut? Would this be akin to a Jayson Werth?

2. Farnsworth to the Braves for 2 AAA pitchers (one was 2-7, the other 1-5 w/ a era above 5).

I would've really like to have seen Depo make a move for these two. I'm not really sure what to think with the inactivity. Are we giving up on the season? Are we sure this team is good enough to reel in the two teams ahead of us, not to mention the playoffs?

44 - It is like Steve said yesterday, it is not that the conclusion is necessarily false, just that the reasoning is. Depodesta has failed miserably in certain respects (cutting washed up players, regulating Tracy, the bullpen in general), but many detractors talk about things which are beyond his control like fastballs on the wrist.

46-I thought the same thing. Jody Gerut is not a prospect, the equivalent of Todd Hollandsworth 4 years after his rookie year. I would have given up something for him just for the sake of whatever jolt making the "biggest" move of the dealine mentally gives the team. I truly think Depo thinks he has Farnsworth for free in Broxton.

Gerut has shown a lot of potential for power (22 Home Runs in 400 AB his rookie year), that somehow detioratted last year. He's certainly worth taking a flier on for a team looking to rebuild.

48 - Sure, Broxton could be Farnsworth (not that that's a major accomplishment or anything) as early as next year. I think its a reach to put a 21-year old kid into a pennant race, and expect him to be the #1 guy out of the bullpen (setting up Yhency).

I would've liked to see some veteran help come in (veterans that can pitch - unlike the AARP crew we run out there every game). Guardado and Farnsworth were my top two choices. Obviously the M's didn't part with Eddie, so he wasn't an option. I think that we could've easily trumped Atl's package though.

Same with Lawton. He would've given us a legit OFer and leadoff hitter. Drew sounds like he's done for the year - something about the wrist not healing exactly right, which would've been necessary for him to think about coming back this year. Now we're going with Repko/Ledee, Werth, and Bradley.

These two would've cost about $3.5M this year, then become FA's.

I read where Ed Wade "offered" Vicente Padilla, Kenny Lofton, and Ugueth Urbina, for A.J. Burnett and Juan Pierre, and then we're all shocked that nothing got done yesterday. Couldn't he have thrown in David Bell too?

46. It seems that Lawton could've been had, but I'm not so sure that is really that great of an upgrade. Yes, the OBP is there, but he's basically a platoon guy. We needed him a month ago, but with Ledee and Valentin back I don't see him as an upgrade that puts us over the top. Once you factor in his defense it might not be an upgrade at all.

I'd rather see what Broxton can do than get Farnsworth, altho he is having a nice season.

I now offer my daily grumbling that Jim Tracy should play Hee Seop Choi regularly...

Rafael Palmeiro just drew a steroids suspension.

#54,
Wow.

50 - Lawton is a terrible defensive outfielder (I think he's -10 runs according to UZR) and we already have two guys that lead off. If you throw lawton in the lead off spot then where are you gonna bat izzy and robles?

where did you hear about drew's wrist?

52 - I just have zero faith in this bullpen right now. Carrara and Alvarez are worthless. Dessens barely gets a chance. Sanchez is ok, but needs to be a 6th or 7th inning guy, not the 8th inning. Broxton, Schmoll, and Brazoban are awfully young to be the primary weapons out of the bullpen.

54 - what are the legal implications of lying to congress?

From Yahoo Sports, apparently citing MLB.com though I haven't seen the original article:

"Jul 27 Dodgers.MLB.com's Mark Thoma reports Los Angeles Dodgers OF J.D. Drew (wrist) is slow to heal from his broken wrist. Doctors said there's a 60 percent chance the wrist will not heal correctly and ligaments would be at risk of coming detached from the bone. "It doesn't feel good," Drew said. "Slow progress now, mobility and trying to get your strength back." "

54 - WOW! This is what everyone has been waiting for. This could me the most important story this year - if not the last 10 years.

56 - Between Robles and Izturis, pick one to play SS and bat them 8th.

Lawton
APerez
Bradley
Kent
Choi
Werth/Ledee
Navarro
Izturis

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659

10 games at least.

New post above.

#39 - Jeromy, I'm with you. It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, either. But our bullpen stinks, three of our top starters (Lowe, Perez, Weaver) are suspect, a third one (Houlton) should be in AAA, our best hitter (Drew) is likely out for the season, and our third baseman is Oscar Robles and our left fielder is Jose Valentin. It's hard to get up off the couch for that.

I'd feel a lot better if we just brought some kids up and let them bat around Kent, Bradley and Izzy. A whole lot better.

58 -- They are bad. :)

Jon, I understand that you are a Stanford Cardinal (or perhaps you're old enough to have been an Indian) but something tells me we would get along quite well just the same. Thanks for the great website and the refreshing code of conduct. (Cal '76.)

Re: 59

Actually, as I remember the original story on Drew's wrist that quoted the 60% figure, I think the meaning was that there was a 60% chance Drew wouldn't even make it to the stage where he is now--beginning rehab. The wording was a bit murky, though.

Well, I guess Raffy's a pretty good actor. His denial before Congress was supposed to be quite a performance, although I don't actually remember it right now.

I personally think this will sink his HoF chances.

WWSH

#67,
I'm inclined to agree about the HoF. His performance has been pretty underrated by many (never had a "dominant" season. blah blah blah) to the point where he may have been a borderline HoF. Now... who knows.

59 - did not realize that the prognosis on Drew's wrist was that bad. I was hoping that he'give us a boost in september.

68 - He gets 3000 hits (check!) and 600 homers (almost check!) it'd be pretty hard to keep him out. McGwire i