Of course now, you've made the Google ads on the site into one for "Anti-Bush Shirts and Gear".

And also one for "Republican Singles". I should go check it out to see if Harriet Miers has her picture posted.

I look at the Dodgers as if the glass is half full, but it would be easy for someone to knock it over and spill everything out.

I know what you mean Jon.

A couple of months back i invited a friend over to my place and he brought a friend of his to my house.
He said he was studying to be a major league umpire. Long story-short, by the end of the night we were both having a dodgers discussion about were the team was headed. He was against all the stuff Depo and Mccourt were doing. I was trying to reason with him and have an intellectual conversation about it and he was just trying to out shout me.

He was trying to talk over me in MY HOME.

That was the last time ive seen that guy.

After 30 minutes of debating i just gave up and walked away because no matter what i wouldve said I wouldve been wrong in his eyes.

And this is why i hate the LA Times and sports radio, because they keep feeding these clowns misinformation or not the whole info and they past it off as truths.

I guess my experience is different from your, Jon. Most of the people in my world:

a) Root for the Giants, Angels or some other team, and just aren't that interested in the Dodgers or actively hate them. When I tell them good things, they don't challenge me. They just plug their ears;

b) If they are Dodger fans, expended so much energy hating the Fox regime, Kevin Malone and the various other characters of that time that this era seems like glasnost. Their worries, if any, are about McCourt's financial standing.

I mean, let's face it. There's not much for McCourt and DePodesta to ruin. We're at the "15 Years of Lousy Football is Enough" stage. The team has wavered from mediocrity to crappiness for most of the past 17 seasons, with a few exceptions that seem, in retrospect, to have not meant much. We're not "contenders" like the Giants or Angels. We occasionally fall upward near the top, but no one's been fooled in a long time. This organization was cast adrift in the wake of Campanis' departure.

DePodesta, Logan White, the legacy of Dan Evans and the Jacksonville Suns give me hope that the Dodger storyline is about to change. So that makes me a member of your party, Jon. But I don't think voter turnout is very high either way.

I'm writing a paper about Barthes' definition of myth. Maybe I should use the Dodgers as an example.

3 - Interesting perspective. My experience is that most people's memories now omit everything between 1989 and 2003.

SMY,
In a nutshell, what is Barthes' definition of myth?

The ads for "Republican Singles" are gone now.

My sister-in-law doesn't like DePodesta and she adored Paul Lo Duca, but I'm not much in the mood to argue with her because she's family and a nice person and a longtime Dodgers fan.

But if you read the BTF thread on the Tim Brown column, there is a deep division between those who think DePodesta is horrible and those who think that you can't judge. (I'm in the latter category).

And while Frank McCourt doesn't seem like the easiest boss to work for, I really don't see him as a man bent on the destruction of the franchise as some speculated yesterday. McCourt may do it out of incompetence rather than direct action.

And remember that other franchises with horrible owners have been winners (such as the Marlins, TWICE!)

Basically it's that myth is a constructed reality used to maintain the interests of the dominant powers in society, which is presented as "natural" and glosses over all the complex history that goes into it.

So in the case of the Dodgers, there's the apparently dominant idea that DePo and Moneyball are destroying the proud history of the franchise, which the media keeps going on and on about with the "right way to play" and "Dodger tradition", etc., despite any stats, arguments, or anecdotes about Branch Rickey using sabermetrics to the contrary.

I agree DePo needs the benefit of the doubt. I am still wondering why Dan Evans isn't a viable GM Candidate these days when you look at the pieces he put in place and the players he aquired during his term with us. Look at Logan White and Kim Ng for enough proof of the impact he had with us.

I still may be the only one who loved the Milton Bradley deal and I still feel Bradley can contribute on the field as well as the community. Jeff Kent has 1 year left and I would be willing to give Bradley the same time frame and hopefully they can work things out on a personal standpoint.

I think we all felt this team was not as strong character wise as 2004's but now DePo has learned his lesson that the make-up of a team is another big part of the process along with OPS and OBP. I think he will make great strides this offseason if given the resources to pursue who he needs to.

3 b) I really like the way you said what you said. I've just recently started reading and trying to understand the SABRE approach, but I have to be honest that I enjoy Mr. Enders' books on the World Series and Ballparks much more than Bill James' abstracts. Not that Mr. James' writings are not full of information, they're just more work for me than fun.

Anyway, the thing that really puzzles me is why people are so impatient with DePodesta. The last 17 years have been pretty awful. I DO NOT want another manager or GM that evaluates talent and assembles a team like the ones we've had the last 17 years have done. I hope DePodesta gets a fair amount of time to put a program together and 3 years won't do it.

I also don't want another owner that is willing to let the team slide because he's afraid it MAY cut into his family fortune. I kinda like the maverick that is risking his neck and trying to make a place for himself. I hope he sticks with what he's started. Vindication will be won by staying the course, not by flopping from one philosophy to another because the dolts in MSM have a megaphone in their hands they haven't earned.

DePodesta's plan may not work, but I want different results than the Dodgers have been getting, so it is obviously going to take a different plan than the one they've been using.

9 brings up a good point. Part of the Dodger storyline is going "The Education of Paul DePodesta." He's gifted, I believe, but he's also a work in progress. I don't get the feeling he's an arrogant know-it-all. Instead, I think he's a guy who consciously wants to learn more and evolve into something greater than he is right now. I don't think, in the end, he's going to be a clone of Billy Beane, and I think he will depart from or transcend (depending on your p.o.v.) mere sabremetrics in his pursuit of a winning team. Perhaps along the way, he will discover...heart and soul!

Most of my friends assume the Dodgers are being run by a bunch of drunken sailors with no clue as to what day it is, much less how to put a team together. I find I'm in the situation most of the time where I just don't talk about them.

At a party recently I sat down next to a guy who played Little League with Paul LoDuca. I said I liked LoDuca a lot and it's too bad he's been reduced to a political beach ball. He was obviously distraught when LoDuca got traded. Then he asks "have you read Moneyball? I don't believe you can build a team on statistics." Time for a little evangelizing! The guy was nice enough to allow me to breakdown the LoDuca trade and the Green/Navarro trade. I'm sure he had never heard a calm, detailed explanation for DePo's moves. I feel like we all have to do the work that the media should at least attempt.

2004 was almost the worst thing that could have happened.

If we would have just come in 2nd or 3rd place as we always had then all this change, tough change, would be viewed at as a good thing.

Just to clarify the language here, people attribute to GMs like Depodesta and Beane, a sabermetric approach.

This refers to the concept of sabermetrics which is merely the interpretation of baseball statistics in a different way from the traditional counting and rate statistics. There is no one sabermetric way. Bill James coined the term (or at least popularized it) because many of the statistics developed in the field came from people who were members of SABR, the Society for American Baseball Research (the organization rarely spells out the name anymore for a variety of reason.)

However, not all members of SABR are particularly experts in statistical analysis. I would say about nearly half aren't. Many are baseball historians, as Eric Enders would likely describe himself. I would fall into that category too. However the statistical analysis people and the historical people are not disjoint sets.

Unfortunately, this site won't allow me to enter my really cool Venn diagram of the membership of SABR.

8- So how is Roland Barthes' "myth" any different from Marx's definition of Capitalist ideology? They seem to function the same.

I am a Levinas fan myself.

The Dictator

15 - Feel free to link to a picture.

As I am out of market, I don't seem to see this debate or argument a whole lot. It would really seem premature to fire DePo. I know the media wants it. But when the Dodgers start winning like the A's they will love both DePo and McCourt for it, but they will not give them the credit, at least in print.

OK, the emperor has no clothes. There is no Venn diagram. I've never been able to accurately draw how the people in the Negro Leagues Committee of SARB always seem to be arguing with each other.

16 -- There isn't much difference.

20- OK so I am reading your comment correctly then. If you write the paper, I would love to read it!

"The point isn't to play baseball, the point is to change it!" -Marx and Engels as baseball fans

"Join together you sabermetrics, the time is at hand!" -Marx and Engels again

"Throw off the oppressive baseball tradtionalists (besides they are all republicans!)" -Marx and Engels again

Just having some fun! Please don't blacklist me for my political statements.

The Dictator

Per Rotoworld-
The Pirates have reportedly been turned down by Tim Wallach and Robin Ventura as they look to hire a hitting coach.

Dodger Thoughts is not subject to the terms of the McCarran Act.

10 It's been a long time since I've read the Abstracts, but I remember them being laugh-out-loud funny as well as extremely enlightening. Maybe, given that they were largely about the performance of current teams and players, they lose some timeliness if you read them so many years after they were created?

I doubt that the joke "Signing Ellis Valentine is God's way of telling you that you have too much money" makes sense in this day and age.

Thanks Bob, that's a great example.

I dont understand why Olney and everyone else for that matter thats been covering the Dodger managerial hunt feel inclined to say that Collins is the favorite, has Depo said or done anything to make this a relevant statement? Or is it just heresay? If Collins gets the job what happens to Orel? If Collins doesnt get the job does he takes his dissapointment out by sabatoging the minors? Sorry for all the questions but its monday.

Somebody should tell ESPN.com that the idea of having an ad take over your screen every time you click on a link in the Buster Olney blog is quite annoying. It's not a popup. It's a complete takeover and then you go to the link.

27 -- Probably because he's a Proven Manager and already part of the organization. I think it mostly comes from the ever-popular "unnamed sources". I don't think he'd sabotage the minors if he didn't get the job -- if he was that upset, I assume he would just look to join another organization.

27

Not everybody who gets turned down for a promotion takes it out on the company by destroying all the good work that he had done before. It's not a good way to get another job.

If Collins gets so upset over not getting the manager's job, his best recourse would be to look elsewhere for a job.

29- I'm not sure I'm getting the whole proven manager arguement, he was Fired twice, thats 2 strikes do we really want the third to happen while he's in a Dodger uniform? He seems to be doing good things in our Minor leagues, why change that?

Bob, thanks I never knew where SABR eminated from.

I have stopped arguing with prople. I can't win for two reasons. One, I am not as sold on the Sabr approach as I am on the idea that we need to try something new and if we are going to try something new we should give it our all. The second reason is those who object to Depo's approach have the ultimite trump card; results, losing 91 games, we had the 6th worst record in MLB.
Just wait a year or two and we will see if we are right or wrong. All you can do is agree to disagree.

Finally, I don't get the push for Orel. Big deal he's a former Dodger great. So what? It might make us feel all warm and cozy but is he qualified? That's all I care about.

The "SABR approach" to the Dodgers would be to get a lot of old guys in a room and have them whine about Walter O'Malley.

The sabermetric approach would be a lot different.

Sure, DePodesta needs a break here. There's no denying that the injuries had a huge say in the Dodgers' 2005. But that said, at the same time it's also true that DePodesta, for whatever his merits as a GM may have been or may be, has never been a GM before. Hiring him, therefore, was an act of faith and not, despite numerous loud "Moneyball" fans, a sabermetric act in and of itself. We have no track record to rely upon when assessing DePodesta's fitness or unfitness as a general manager. He may be great. He may be awful.

It would entirely be possible to blame the GM if the team's injuries were foreseeable. J.D. Drew's hit-by-pitch was an injury that couldn't have been foreseen, certainly. Milton Bradley's fragility was, but then you have to ask yourself the question, would the team have been better off keeping Franklin Gutierrez (the main part of the trade)? Would they have been better with Andrew Brown, who posted a 10.46 K/9 with Buffalo this year?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/franklin-gutierrez.shtml
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/andrew-brown.shtml

Bradley was a key part of the 2004 squad, but the old demons of injury and temprament came back to bite him -- and the Dodgers. I don't honestly know how to grade DePodesta just yet -- and I keep waffling on several topics, the amount of blame to assign to him over injuries being one of them -- but, as with Dan Evans when he was in the GM's chair, I see the same pernicious tendency in the media to hurl javelins even though the supporting arguments are rather flimsy.

32-Why wouldnt he be qualified? He's been involved with baseball probably 90% of his life, he was a great pitcher and he's a Dodger hero.

31 -- I don't really disagree with you, but when your pool of candidates consist of a bunch of relative unknowns, the Proven Manager is going to stand out to the Olneys of the world. Particularly considering the perception that the Dodgers need to go with a sure thing (although I wouldn't consider Collins or Trammell sure things).

How does being fired twice make you a proven manager? To me that shows the complete opposite. Maybe it shows he's proven problem with upper mgmt.

32, 35 Remember, Bill Russell became manager with some warm and fuzzy feeling, too, because he had been a popular player associated with past glory. He, too, had been a major league-level coach and had some credibility in that regard. And it did not end well for him. So as much as I would like to see Orel return to the organization for sentimental reasons, I also think some caution is in order.

37 Yes, exactly so. But SMY's point is that to the press, the name with the track record gives them more of a paper trail to work with when writing about the guy.

I don't think Bill Russell was nearly as popular as Orel Hershiser. A lot of people wanted to get rid of Russell and find a better shortstop. One that could do things like hit AND field. Russell got to stick around longer than Lopes, Cey and Garvey because he really didn't have any value to any other franchise. And Russell was willing to become a parttimer and a utility man.

25 I still think it's a bad idea to sign Ellis Valentine.

But they won't hire Orel because Frank wants to destroy the team, because that makes him more money. Or so the argument went yesterday.

I hope we're not going down that road again today.

I kept wanting to shout "ANTITRUST EXEMPTION!"

Yeah, what 39 said.

40 True, he wasn't as popular as Orel, but I don't recall him being quite that unpopular. Certainly, he benefitted from association with a very successful era in the team's history. And he got a pretty decent honeymoon as manager.

I guess there's a little something in the back of my brain that worries me about a hero coming back to a place of past glory in a high-pressure position. His return is billed as the solution to all ills, if not the Second Coming, with the expectations all out of joint. Maybe Alan Trammell is a better example?

35. Being a Dodger hero and a great pitcher doesn't make him qualified. What may make him qualified is being in baseball 90% of his life but that is true of the other canidates as well. I am not saying he is not qualified. I am just saying his Dodger experience shouldn't garner him extra points. I find myself pulling for Lovullo or Royster. A minor league coach or a bench coach should have a broader range of in-game management experience, than a pitching coach. Of the two I pull a little more for Lovello becasue he comes from Clev. which isnt all that diffrent than what the Dodgers are trying to build. I can't get behind Collins because he has been unable to get along with players on two teams. And I can't go with Wotus, because anyone working under Alou I just can't support.
In the end I think the manager issue is not that important (which isn't to say we shouldn't go with the best canidate) becasue I assume Depo learned his lesson and will be calling the shots.

45 Good point, Trammell was the Prodigal Son returning to Detroit. That didn't work out so well. We (the universal we) could be setting up Orel for a fall too.

45,47- When Trammell first came in they won 29 more games, if Orel can get that out of the Dodgers then that'd be amazing.
46- How are being a teams Hero and great pitcher not qualifications?

24 & 25. Yes, I remember the name, Ellis Valentine, but not much about the player. So, I suppose that is some of it.

However, though I guess I don't express it well, my real point is:

Take the time to work out a different approach that works and ignore people who think 20 years of bad management can be fixed overnight.

Let's be honest. Even the '88 victory was more good fortune than astute planning.

I can't tell you that Paul DePodesta is the "right man for this job (thus my reference to not being up-to-speed on the statistical approach to baseball or whatever it should be called), but I am almost certain that the right person to develop an improved approach is NOT SOME RETREAD TRADITIONALIST.

Personally, I thought Dan Evans might be the right guy. I liked what he was doing. But, watching DePodesta is fun too. His GM years have been just as successful as Malone's, Lasorda's (brief, thank goodness), and even Clare's for my money and he is only just getting started.

I love seeing guys we drafted come up out of the minors and succeed at the major league level. Much more satisfying to me than signing big-time free agents, even on the rare occasion that they turn out to be worth the contract.

And, never forget, I don't claim to be a subject matter expert. I just have my opinions and preferences.

Actually in Trammell's first year in Detroit, he inherited a 55-win team and it became a 43-win team. Then he improved by 29 games.

50-Thanks for the clarification, I dont really have time to luck up exact numbers here at work.

51 get your priorities straight :)

I just hope DePodesta's choice as manager is the best leader of the bunch. Presumably, whoever is considered will share the same tactical approach as DePodesta. The team just needs the best leader to get everybody on the same page. The irony of this whole situation is where DePodesta seems to fail is getting his message across to those he is over. His ideas are genius. His message is sometimes unclear.

52- Looking up numbers or Work? :)

53
I'm not doubting you, but I'm curious to know which of Depo's ideas you think are "genius."

53 -- I wonder how much of it is DePodesta's message being unclear, and how much of it is people willfully ignoring it or disagreeing with it. I don't think we know aside from the media speculation, and we know how reliable they are.

37 Joe Torre was out of a job 3 times before he became the manager of the Yankees. Just to set it straight, I'm not sure that he is a great manager, but he has won. He has also been lucky enough to manage some really good teams during his Yankee run.

On to other matters, it is interesting that the MSM and alot of Dodger fans have selective memories from 89-03. When DePo was hired (I was already familiar with him from Moneyball), I told all my friends and family to stop pretending that the Dodgers have been a great team and to give this new guy a chance. The old approach wasn't working.

Really, when was the last time a Dodger team was put together using the "Dodger Way" or whatever Plaschke and his minions keep harping on?

I believe the term was "Dodger Math". One of my personal favorite Plaschkeisms.

57 - 2003

Really, when was the last time a Dodger team was put together using the "Dodger Way" or whatever Plaschke and his minions keep harping on?

Perhaps they want to go back to the days when Branch Rickey ran the team. Rickey, a man who liked to use statistical analysis and keep a low payroll.

Once baseball's economic picture changed forever in the late 1980s and early 1990s with the advent of cable, the Dodgers, among large media market teams, have shown themselves singularly inept at being able to exploit their advantages. The 1970s Dodgers model won't work today. It can't. It's impossible.

The good Brooklyn teams had many traits that are found among good teams today: they hit lots of homers and drew lots of walks. And they had one or two guys who could steal bases and some solid pitching.

Once the Dodgers moved to L.A. and moved into Dodger Stadium, the team adapted to its new environment. Pitching was emphasized and the ability to generate one or two runs. That's what would work.

In the 1970s, while speed was still a big thing, the Dodgers realized that they could hit home runs in Dodger Stadium and players like Reggie Smith and Rick Monday were aquired.

But since 1981, with the exception of the 1988 aberration, the Dodgers front office had no clue about what to do, who to give free agent contracts to, whom to draft. It's all been very disheartening.

Some people want the Dodgers problem fixed by using a time machine. Personally, I would rather have someone who can just try to work with the assets available while keeping an eye on the future. I'll let Bill Plaschke go on sentimental journeys to a period that never existed.

Jon:
I completely emphathize with your point of view, and share it. Also, I am firmly in the pro-Depo camp, and think that canning him after a season that proved nothing (other than the value of having a manager and a GM on the same page) is ridiculous. As far as Orel as manager is concerned, based on a five minute conversation with him over a decade ago at a Dodger media event, he seemed very bright and focused. How is that for small sample analysis?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another "DODGER WAY" team pre-2003. You might find yourself going all the way back to 1988 to find it successfully working..and as someone mentioned, even '88 was remarkable in a fate sorta way (not to mention often forgotten career years from Belcher and Leary)

55 - Forgive the gratuitous use of the word genius but I do think it was smart to sign Kent and not Beltre considering the cost. I think the fact that the farm system has not been routed is a big plus. I actually like the Lowe signing. As far as I can tell, the 2005 team performed better in 2005 than they would have with the players from 2004.

aberration A perfect way to describe the 1988 season.

There is a great entry from "Joe Morgan" over at Yard Work. The first paragraph is priceless:

People call the World Series the "Fall Classic" and classics like the first two games of this "Fall Classic" make it clear why they call it the "Fall Classic." We have seen great fundamental baseball by the Chicago White Sox, maybe the best bunting team in the American League since the early '60s. But the White Sox don't need to bunt to score which is the difference between them and the Houston Astros who don't play fundamental baseball and who are now down two games as a result.

65-Well that settles it, Joe Morgan is a genius.

66You probably already know this, but Yard Work is a joke site with no real posts. Just beautiful parodies.

67- I didnt know that, Ill have to check it out.

It seems as if Loney is no longer on the taxi squad (maybe Hoorelbeke is?). He's batting 3rd on a Monday, which isn't a taxi day. He's hit a homer, so...

Loney- 3 HRs, 20 ABs
Laroche, Kemp, Abreu- 0 HRs, 145 ABs

Great post today jon. It hits so close to home I just had to comment on it, even in the midst of this darn midterm paper I have to get through.

I know exactly what you mean. None of my friends who are fellow Dodger fans agree with Depodesta's philosophy (except you guys, of course).That just kills me. You say you can't talk with your friends about this, well, once we get just a tiny bit of alcohol in us it has led to some very heated debates.

I have gotten some to agree on certain things and I even got one of my friends to read moneyball. But for the most part I have reffered everyone to this site, I figure maybe some intelligent conversation will get rid of some of their ignorance on the subject. :)

Jon, I too agree with your post.

I find I spend a lot of time telling other Dodger fans in these conversations to "be patient".

I was exhausted defending Depo last winter, now I just don't care. At this point I have seen nothing that makes him stand out from the crappy GM world. I was very excited after Depo was hired and expected him to ruffle some feathers to get the franchise out of it's moribund mediocrity.

This is what I expected of him:
1.Trade Gagne for a young power hitting outfielder/infielder while he was at peak value.
2. Replace Gagne with someone like a Jenk/Turnbow or someone like that. Every year they are available just the names change. I had hoped that Depo was going to be smarter then the other GM's and those pitchers would end up Dodgers. Don't tell me these are flukes. EVERY year some pitcher who is not on anyone's radar becomes a savior of a bullpen. Todd Jones / Dempsey / Turnbow / Jenks / Politte / M Batista , I could go on and on. None of them are Gagne, but I'll take an average closer and a kick butt hitter any day over a 10 million-dollar closer and I'd hoped that Depo felt the same. I know it would have been hard to trade Gagne considering he's the face of the franchise but come on. He traded LaDuca. He let Beltre go. He traded Green. He should have gone the whole way. It is not like the media and fans could hate him anymore then they currently do. Only winning is going to change that.
3. Trade Izzy after 2005 during his peak value.
4. Make trades where he wins a little each time.
5. Make smart free agent signings.

Instead he signs Gagne to a 2 year deal and Izzy to a 3 year deal. Now they are worthless as trade material. He should have known better. He could not have predicted the injury to Izzy but with Gagne, history shows that most closers have very small life spans. Maybe Gagne could have pulled a Mariano but the odds are higher that he would pull a Robb Nenn. I expected Depo's numbers to tell him such things and I'm sure they did but he ignored them.
I've liked all his trades I just wish he had done more of them. He has proven by acquiring Werth/M Bradley/Penny/Navarro/A Perez that he can make a deal that usually comes out on our side.

His free agent pickups have not inspired me. He spent a lot of money on Kent/Drew/Lowe/OP but the results are mixed. I've been on record as saying the OP signing was ill-advised and I'm not surprised how it has turned out. I know that JD Drew is a favorite here and his wrist injury was a fluke but all the other surgery they had to do on him this fall were not flukes. This man has to many physical problems to have that much money spent on him. I'm not saying that JD Drew isn't a solid ballplayer, I'm saying he's the type of player that no one other then the Yankee's should be giving a 5 year deal to. I would have said th