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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Dodger Tradition
2005-10-30 03:52
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Let me tell you all you need to know about the Dodger Way, about Dodger tradition.

Only one team in history has ever traded Jackie Robinson. The Dodgers.

Perhaps the biggest hero of the game in the past 60 years, and the Dodgers forced him into retirement.

The last great era for the Dodgers was the 1980s, when they won four divisions and two World Series. The Dodgers kicked off that era with the high-priced acquisitions of free agents Don Stanhouse and Dave Goltz - both of whom flopped.

The Dodgers recovered to win a World Series in 1981. Before the champagne had dried from the team's World Series trophy, the Dodgers rid themselves of longtime second baseman Davey Lopes (who stole 139 bases in his post-Dodger career) and Reggie Smith (who hit 18 homers in 106 games for the 1982 Giants).

One year later, the Dodger Way allowed cornerstones Steve Garvey and Ron Cey to leave. Each won a division title with another team; the two combined for 139 home runs in other teams' uniforms.

Dusty Baker left after the 1983 season, following what might have been the ugliest period of miscommunication between a team and its star player in Dodger history.

The Dodgers replaced these people with a mixture of minor leaguers from within and major leaguers from without. Some of them succeeded, some of them failed.

It was legendary Dodger executive Branch Rickey, a statistician, who said it was better to trade a player a year early than a year late. That is the foundation of the Dodger tradition.

Meanwhile, Tommy Lasorda's 1988 World Series title was preceded by three losing seasons out of four from 1984-87. The only place that the Dodgers have valued stability over performance in the past 50 years, where one could fail or grow old without repercussions, has been the front office.

The idea that somehow, Paul DePodesta violated the Dodger ethos by trading Paul Lo Duca or Dave Roberts, or letting Adrian Beltre go, or watching a division winner have a losing season the following year, is patently absurd, and anyone who says otherwise has simply forgotten or chosen to forget the team's history.

The record shows that DePodesta did not put the Dodgers in the playoffs again in 2005. Shocking, I know. Do you know what the Dodgers' record for consecutive postseason appearances is in their 121-year history? Two. It is a Dodger tradition, like it or not, to have disappointment and then regroup.

Smith, perhaps the Dodgers' highest-profile outside acquisition from the 1970s, missed 301 games in his six seasons with the team. Kirk Gibson, perhaps the Dodgers' highest-profile acquisition from the 1980s, played 71 games the season after his great home run - one fewer than J.D. Drew - and was soon unceremoniously dumped. It is a Dodger tradition, like it or not, for key players to get hurt and stay hurt.

The Dodgers traditionally win when they rely on their farm system and the farm system produces. To be sure, the farm system doesn't always produce. But in their entire history in Los Angeles, the team has made only one playoff appearance with fewer than five home-grown players in the starting lineup. That team was the hallowed 2004 team at whose breakup everyone is so aghast.

DePodesta bet his future on the Dodger Way, transforming the team into one that was going to rely on the farm system, supported by a few outside acquisitions. He had not finished the job - a 71-91 record indicates that - but he was doing exactly what people have been asking for since 1988. He was doing exactly what the Dodgers have been doing almost forever.

DePodesta might have needed to improve his communication skills, but it doesn't help to be surrounded by people who refuse to listen to you, who have their knives out for you.

One can only hope that the next Dodger general manager has as good a sense of what made the Dodgers great as DePodesta did. It's as if people think Dodger Stadium was Eden before DePodesta arrived. It might have been a paradise at times, but a paradise found through major trial and error.

Update: Mark Whicker of the Register has a fairly balanced take:

DePodesta never got a chance to hire a manager. He had barely cleaned up the broken glass from the effects of Hurricane Kevin, the Category 5 disaster that battered the Dodgers for 2 1/2 seasons.

At the very least he had introduced some contractual sanity, and was looking forward to playing with the $24 million the Dodgers would no longer be paying Darren Dreifort and Shawn Green. ...

So Lasorda became the interim GM in '98, following Claire. "I'm not interested (in doing it now)," he said Saturday. "It's tough. You get here early in the morning and leave late at night."

Well, it's not as tough as Lasorda made it look.

In July of that year he traded Paul Konerko to Cincinnati for Jeff Shaw. At season's end he was surprised to learn that Shaw could demand a trade. Shaw took $8.1 million for three years instead. Konerko - entering free agency after back-to-back 40-home run seasons - has hit 128 bombs since Shaw retired.

Update 2: More from Baseball Analysts, Management by Baseball and, of course, 6-4-2.

Update 3: The Juice

Comments (723)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-30 05:29:54
1.   Felton
I thought I was disappointed when I showed up at the OTB yesterday and found that none of the betting machines were operating. I thought I was disappointed when the Saints fired Randy Mueller as their GM. The Dodgers could have returned to the days when they were a well-run big market team - fun to root for because they would solve their problems by intelligence rather than backing up a truck full of money. The last two seasons had rejuvenated my interest in the Dodgers. Obviously McCourt is a bigger part of the problem than the solution. I cringe in anticipation of the future, even if another ex-Red Sox guy is brought in.
2005-10-30 05:32:31
2.   Felton
We've heard a great deal here in New Orleans about the Saints moving to LA. The stadium issue seems to be the same in LA (no public money). Are you guys interested in the LA Saints?
2005-10-30 05:33:41
3.   Aug C
I'm so torn. A couple of days ago when the news first broke that DePodesta was not at the Hershier interview, I was very uncomfortable and I said as much in a comment I left here. I love sabermetrics, and I love that we had a sabermetrically-minded general manager.

But I hate the J.D. Drew out clause, and I'm still flummoxed by the number of years and dollars committed to Derek Lowe. Letting Beltre go was a revelation, and the Kent signing was marvelous at worst.

Let me be clear: I wish Paul DePodesta was our general manager. But as many people here have duly noted, the man did himself no favors. Steve Finley and Adrian Beltre both complained that they had been deceived and insulted. Mind you, this wasn't Pedro-esque incessant whining about not getting enough respect. This was, "DePodesta said he'd do X, and then he didn't do X." And maybe that's why Paulie is best at being a number two guy, because he was perpetually opening himself to attack from the Plashckes and Average Joe Fans of the world. Maybe not, but don't tell me anyone can be absolutely sure either way.

In any case, it's times like these when I realize how awesome Dodger Thoughts is. I disagree often with a lot of commentors and, but it's almost always civil and the thoughts posted are usually trenchant. Let me pose a parting question:

If we knew NOTHING about Paul DePodesta before he was handed the reins of the Dodgers (that is, we didn't know he was Billy Beane's number two, was sabermetrically minded, and was an econ major at Harvard) would we Dodger Thoughts readers (who clearly have a general sabermetric bent, and please don't anyone deny that sabermetricians don't have prejudices too) be harsher on the moves DePo made?

I think yes.

2005-10-30 05:47:25
4.   Alex Belth
Jon, as a Yankee fan with only a passing interest in the Dodgers, I am sorry to see the situation the club currently finds themselves in. Your analysis today was enlightening and helpful in understanding the trends in Dodgers history. I'm not surprised that DePodesta was vilified by the local L.A. media--he doesn't have the over-sized personality that market would seem to require. But the viciousness of the attacks, often based on ignorance and certainly driven by personal agendas, was most discouraging.

I don't have any particular sentiments towards DePodesta. I read about him in "Moneyball" and he seems to be a bright guy. I don't know whether that would translate into success as a general manager, but as you mentioned, the guy did get his team to the playoffs which has to count for something. The fact that he was canned after two years and thus not given a genuine opportunity to put his imprint on the organization is a shame.

I take front office/media hysteria for granted because I live in New York and root for the Yankees. But I feel badly for you true blue Dodger fans because that is one great organization that seems like it is in complete disarray at the moment. With the resources and tradition they've got at their disposal there that is just a damn shame.

2005-10-30 05:59:08
5.   oldbear
I'm not worried about a new GM trading our prospects.

I'm more worried about the new GM letting Bradley, Choi, and Werth go for nothing, and replacing them with even worse, and much more expensive players.

My worst nightmare is we'll go back to the old Dodger way of paying Paul Konerko 13mils/yr to do what Choi/Saenz can do for 2mils.

And then when we need starting pitching, the front office will say "We dont have the funds to do it"....

2005-10-30 06:06:41
6.   oldbear
3. You read too much of the MSM, and not enough of actually evaluating what DePo let go, and what DePo acquired.

For a guy's whose worse deal was signing Jose Valentin to a 1yr 3.5 mils contract, I dont think he should have been fired.

Bringing in Bradley, Finley, Penny, Choi, Drew, Kent, Werth, Cruz, Lowe, Navarro all the while keeping the farm intact and keeping the payroll under 100mils should be commended.

Letting go Beltre, Green, Finley, Roberts, Cora, Loduca, Encarnacion should also be seen as a plus.

I'd rate Gagne's 2yr deal, and Izzy's 3yr deal as the only moves I found to be lacking DePo's part.

All the MSM speculation I dont let cloud my judgement of what DePo actually did do.

I could care less how many phone calls he returns. I only care about whom he puts out on the field.

2005-10-30 06:06:47
7.   scareduck
5 - "I'm more worried about the new GM letting Bradley, Choi, and Werth go for nothing, and replacing them with even worse, and much more expensive players."

Even worse, much more expensive, and older players.

Welcome to your 2006 Los Angeles Mets.

2005-10-30 06:08:24
8.   scareduck
BTW, Jon, again I wanted to reiterate how fabulous it is to come over here and read what you write on a daily or near-daily basis. The Plaschkes of the world leave an awful taste in my mouth.
2005-10-30 06:11:24
9.   scareduck
3 - "Let me be clear: I wish Paul DePodesta was our general manager. But as many people here have duly noted, the man did himself no favors. Steve Finley and Adrian Beltre both complained that they had been deceived and insulted. Mind you, this wasn't Pedro-esque incessant whining about not getting enough respect. This was, 'DePodesta said he'd do X, and then he didn't do X.'"

So what? When is it a GM's job to be forthcoming about his activities? I would say entirely that a GM must needs be secretive and occaisionally employ subterfuge and even deceit.

2005-10-30 06:25:58
10.   oldbear
9. You'd think if Beltre had been 'deceived', wouldnt Scott Boras have had problems dealing with DePo.

Yet somehow, after Beltre was 'deceived', DePo managed to sign 2 other Boras clients in Lowe/Drew to big money deals.

If Beltre's agent doesnt have a problem with DePo, how can Beltre? Bc its the agents that negotiate the contracts.

2005-10-30 06:29:36
11.   Slipstream
Whatever DePodesta's faults, he had this going for him--he wasn't influenced by anything Plaschke wrote. That's the most pathetic thing about the current ownership, the way they panic over whatever's written in the LA TImes. It's a sign of weakness.

DePodesta was on his way to fulfilling the mandate the owner gave him--to create a long-term winning team that turns a profit. (They already, as Jamie McCourt crowed, made money this year.) That's a difficult thing to do these days and he took a lot of risks to try to accomplish that. Yet they fired him because of (apparently) complaints from the press and Lasorda. Sad.

2005-10-30 06:40:34
12.   HHortin
Apparently Team McCourt are well on their way to becoming known as 'Steinbrenner-West.' A reality series has to be in the works.

Perhaps after two decades of perpetual firings they'll be in a position to throw hundreds of millions at payroll and field a perpetual contender. Boy, I can't wait.

2005-10-30 06:42:31
13.   Jesse
Jon,

Great way to wake up. The more snipits of information I come across regarding the Dodger situation, Depodesta is probably better off somewhere else.

2005-10-30 06:45:18
14.   SMY
Aside from Plaschke, the LA media reaction seems to mostly be focused on the McCourts, which is surprising. I am mildly impressed.
2005-10-30 06:54:24
15.   Eric L
14 Hacksaw of all people was very critical of the DePo firing yesterday. He had some choice words for McCourt and Co.
2005-10-30 07:12:00
16.   dan reines
"I could care less how many phone calls he returns. I only care about whom he puts out on the field."

Unfortunately, "whom he puts out on the field" isn't enough. Never was, really.

We heard for years that players want to play for the Dodgers and the Lakers because they were such classy organizations. That meant, among other things, that the communication, top-down, was clear, and that promises were kept. Obviously, there was a perception that DePodesta was lousy in this category, and with guys like Bill "Inspector Javert" Plaschke looking for any reason -- ANY reason -- to hate this guy, his inability to sell himself to the outside (and perhaps inside) world was a telegraphed back-door slider.

I like a lot of what DePo's done. A lot. But Aug C's right: if we knew nothing about DePodesta but what he produces -- that is, if we could quantify everything a GM does and look at him as one big stat sheet -- then i think more people would be willing to acknowledge that, as Jon put it, he did himself no favors. We'd say "Nice Prospects Kept Ratio, and look at that sweet Cutting Guys Loose at the Right Time Percentage. But what's up with this guy's Asserting Authority Over a Disobedient Manager Average? And my god, would it kill him to be a little more extraverted? A few more phone calls to guys on their way out, and he buys himself another five points of good will that he can use to keep the Hee-Seop whining to a dull roar for one more month..."

I'm furious at the McCourts right now. But I'm also disappointed in DePodesta for providing his critics with the ammunition they needed. It would be nice to believe that the only thing that matters is the product on the field, but a GM is a General Manager, not just a Roster Manager.

Sorry to see Depodesta (should I be calling him Paul?) go. Even sorrier to see Bill Plaschke become the Dodgers' Personnel Manager.

2005-10-30 07:16:00
17.   Vishal
the best lies from the mccourt press conference:

"i am not an impulsive person... these decisions don't get made impulsively"

"my job is not to make decisions that worry about what looks silly in the public eye or what doesn't look silly in the public eye... my job is to make the right decisions, and that's what i'm going to continue to do"

"we did everything we could to achieve the success we wanted [this past season]"

2005-10-30 07:16:03
18.   HomeDePo
Jon,

I thought my weekend was ruined by UCLA winning, Texas winning, and my favorite GM getting fired, but then I checked out this site. My weekend is still ruined, but this site made it a little bit better. My weekend will be truly ruined if Bobby Valentine is hired, because I clearly remember him hating JD Drew on Baseball Tonight, But I still know I can come here to help my brain out.

By the way, I had a dream last night where Jaime McCourt becomes GM and Manager and Owner and Assistant GM and it was awful ladies and gentleman. Worst dream ever...

2005-10-30 07:18:31
19.   HomeDePo
The Plaschke article is SO BAD I thought I would cry. He has no idea what to think about baseball.
2005-10-30 07:25:06
20.   Aug C
Re: 6, 9, 10

"Yet somehow, after Beltre was 'deceived', DePo managed to sign 2 other Boras clients in Lowe/Drew to big money deals."
Lowe and Drew signed deals that were universally regarded as overpayments. I fail to see this as evidence that DePodesta is capable of interacting well with negotiators.

My point is this: DePodesta may or may not have been a good GM (I think he was), but you can't pretend that politics isn't important in society. Don't tell me that at your job, part of your duties don't include not pissing everybody off. Of course I'd rather have an a-hole GM who puts championship teams together instead of a nice one who puts mediocre teams together. But if you put a 92 LOSS TEAM (!!) on the field, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt for your inability to be political. I still disagree with the firing, because I believe you need to give a guy time and I also have faith in Paulie. But DePodesta did NOT prove unequivocally that he was a great GM, and it's also true that online commentators (who are generally sabermetrically inclined) especially at Baseball Prospectus gave DePodesta more leeway than he earned through his own merit.

2005-10-30 07:25:41
21.   alnyden
What a great post, Jon. But I need some help.

Can someone please tell me WHY DePodesto was fired? What is the real reason? If it was because of the losing record this season, why would he have been allowed to handle the Tracy situation? And why would he be fired right at the end of the manager search, instead of before it started?

SOMETHING must have happened, right? One day he was in charge, and the next, he's gone. I just can't understand it. There were too many injuries this season to blame the guy. McCourt was the one that hired him and must have approved of his style and most of his moves. So what changed?

Did every manager who interviewed give feedback that they hated the guy? Did he conduct this search in an unprofessional way? Did Lasorda and Hershiser get together in the same room and bash him, saying he was un-Dodger like?

Will we ever hear the real story?

2005-10-30 07:26:01
22.   Bert
The McCourts have failed the Dodgers and set back the building of a dynasty organization.

So what if Depodesta has weaknesses? Every GM does. The point is to build a management team with complementary skills oriented around a common philosophy.

Ousting Depodesta in favor of "old baseball" hack advice from Tommy LaSorda shows clearly the lack of a baseball philosophy more than anything.

2005-10-30 07:36:53
23.   Izzy
Dear Paul,
Thank you because:

You didn't seem to care what anyone thought
You based your descisions on facts, as best as possible
I believe you gave it all you had
You brought us Jeff Kent
You were different and innovative and edgey.
You put up with the McCourts for 2 years

Thank you Paul,

*I wish you could have stayed on as an assistant gm, but, I guess that's just not the way it works. You will be though, somewhere else, I am pretty sure. And maybe that's exactly what you are meant to be.

2005-10-30 07:38:05
24.   Chris H
Anyone else thinking that Jamie McCourt is ready to set Kim Ng up as the first female GM?

If it happens, we could do a lot worse...

2005-10-30 07:47:45
25.   Jon Weisman
"as Jon put it, he did himself no favors."

Not how I put it. I don't agree with this.

2005-10-30 07:48:10
26.   Jon Weisman
8 - thanks, Rob. That means a lot.
2005-10-30 07:51:57
27.   Jon Weisman
21 - Someone yesterday mentioned this, but along with the organizational and media wheels turning against DePodesta, I think the misleading perception that the White Sox won their title playing smartball with character played a role in the timing.
2005-10-30 07:56:24
28.   Jon Weisman
Going for the cycle ... see update above with link to Mark Whicker's Register column.
2005-10-30 08:01:03
29.   Rich Lederer
Jon, Another great post. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less from you. It's nice to know there is at least one level-headed writer covering the Dodgers.
2005-10-30 08:01:03
30.   Eric L
This from Gregg Patton's column at the Press-Enterprise (pe.com)....

"But whether DePodesta was really on a winning track or not, we'll never know. He never did get a chance to work with a manager of his choosing, a process that now has been turned upside down after three weeks of interviews and winnowing."

Full article:

http://tinyurl.com/7qk2q (registration or bugmenot required)

2005-10-30 08:04:45
31.   dan reines
25 -- you're right -- how you put it ("might have needed to improve his communication skills") and how i read it were different. I misread it -- sorry to mischaracterize your words.

Instead, let me clarify: I think Paul Depodesta clearly did need to improve his communication skills, and I think he did himself no favors in failing to do so. I wish that weren't the case, especially given the preponderance of people who, as you actually did put it, "ha[d] their knives out for [him]."

2005-10-30 08:06:58
32.   Bob Timmermann
This column sounds like something I would have written if I had about 25 times more writing talent.

It was excellent.

2005-10-30 08:17:18
33.   Kayaker7
27 Yep. Exactly. It is like a daytrader chasing a hot stock based on its price movement. McCourt now thinks Smartball/Smallball is the way. He will rue this decision.
2005-10-30 08:18:51
34.   Vishal
oh man, that register column was so absolutely dead-on. it's shocking that the LA times which recently won 5 pulitzers and was until a couple of years ago a very good paper(in fact i think it was a better paper than the new york times about 2-3 years ago), has fallen below the oc register, at least in terms of its sports coverage.
2005-10-30 08:23:39
35.   JSN
I'm extremely saddened to find out(or more accurately, have confirmed that) the McCourts are knee-jerk owners, immature and sensitive to how much people like them. If DePo gets the boot after a playoff season, and one losing season derailed by injury, I fear for the Dodgers as long as the McCourts are owners. "Stay the course" is not in their vocabulary and I'm not looking forward to the coming revolving door of managers, GMs, and front office executives. If they're not careful, they may get a revolving door of fans.
2005-10-30 08:28:48
36.   John A
Jon: another terrific post. The availability of your analysis makes it easier to bypass Bill Plaschke's tripe this morning.

BTW, this has sort of been said already, but Paul DePodesta also deserves credit for going out as a class act. Maybe his communication skills were lacking in some respects (or maybe that's just more L.A. media pseudo-journalism) but the fact is that he never publicly trashed anyone during a miserable, frustrating season. This is especially remarkable considering all the bile that the likes of Plaschke and Keisser spewed at him. And he took full blame for the season, unlike Tracy and (in the end) Frank McCourt. I still think history will prove the wisdom of DePo's approach to roster-building, but in my mind there's already no doubt about his character.

2005-10-30 08:32:47
37.   Kayaker7
A quote from the press conference:

McCourt said he talked with Hershiser "about what it means to be a Dodger. We want Dodgers here. People who lived it, breathed it, and don't have to have it explained to them."

I just don't know what to say. Is being a Dodger something unknowable unless you've been one? Kinda like how African-Americans say that one cannot fully understand what it means to be black unless you've been one?

2005-10-30 08:37:57
38.   Kayaker7
Everyone talks about Depo's lack of communication skills. That may all be true, but I don't think McCourt means in the same way that we'd think of it. McCourt sees communication skills as being able to charm the media and explain to the masses the direction the Dodgers are going. I think a GM's ability to communicate his philosophy to his organization is much more important. All the public and the media needs to know is that the team will win.
2005-10-30 08:38:03
39.   Goozmani
I was excited when Depo was first hired, mainly because it was something new, and I was interested into what he would bring to L.A. After a 91-loss season, Depo being fired, Im looking forward to what may come. I guess I'm fairly optimistic.

Look, Lasorda won as manager, Hershiser won as a player, McCourt payed the money. These are the guys Frank wants here. If they dont win, at least they did the "dodger way".
(poking fun)

Did Frank let the pressure get to him? Yes.
Did Paul Depodesta do a wonderful job? No. Valentine was not a good signing, he held on to Izturis too long as well as Jim Tracy.

Well, hey, at least Jim Tracy works for Pittsburg.

2005-10-30 08:38:21
40.   HomeDePo
37

Yesterday was my Aunt's Birthday, so I got to see a lot of my cousins and cousin-in-laws (including the one who introduced me to this site). I was talking to two of them and one of them wanted more old Dodger's back and the other made a great point: I do not need Dodgers, I need a Winner.

Thankyou Paul for everything, you are a Winner.

2005-10-30 08:43:09
41.   HomeDePo
Dearest Frank McCourt-

If you get caught up in this tradition stuff, and are still mad we do not have Mike Scioscia managing us, then you are getting way too caught up in the Franchises image instead of their on-field results.(Unless you honestly think that Bobby Valentine is a good manager...)

Let us face it, the Dodger way is next to gone. The days of Maury Wills bunting for a base hit, stealing second, being sacrificed over to third, and then scoring on a fly ball are completely over. We have found reliable ways to manufacture runs that you probably cannot fit into you brain.

-The Home Depo

2005-10-30 08:44:26
42.   HomeDePo
PS, Frank, What do you know about the Dodger way? You live in Boston half the time and the Dodgers were your second choice for a franchise to buy.

-The Home Depo

2005-10-30 08:44:45
43.   regfairfield
39 If you saw Valentin's stats at the beginning of the season, hitting 25 home runs in each of the last five seasons, not knowing what you know now, would you have signed him? Why or why not?

Until July, would you honestly say that you would have gotten rid of Izturis? I can tell you that most people here (myself included) when asked if late May if you would rather get rid of Gagne or Izturis, the concensous was Gagne.

2005-10-30 08:45:56
44.   Suffering Bruin
Jon, your post should be [REQUIRED] reading for every Dodger fan, pardon my shouting.

The more I think about who is being perceived as the "winners" in this sorry state of affairs, the angrier I get.

I hope for Frank and Jamie's sake, Lasorda doesn't start showing up at games with Eli Broad. Then again...

2005-10-30 08:46:30
45.   HomeDePo
39

On the contrary, Goozmani, DePo did not intend for Jose Valentine to play 90 percent of the games at third base. Before the season started DePo told the world that Antonio Perez was going to split time with Jose Valentine. I believe he was going for a 40-60 or 50-50 split, not 90-10...

-The Home Depo

2005-10-30 08:46:53
46.   Suffering Bruin
Uh, I was going for bold caps above and failed. Because nothing grabs attention like bold caps!

(sigh)

2005-10-30 08:50:00
47.   Marty
I've seen no quotes from Depo. Does anyone know if he's turning down interviews? Does he live in L.A. or has he left town? I'd love to hear from him, even if he doesn't really talk about the details of what happened.
2005-10-30 08:50:09
48.   legrandbleu
Newhan's take on Lasorda
-----------------------------------------
How many times has he told the story?

How many times has Tom Lasorda pointed out that this former left-handed pitcher who would make only six starts in the big leagues and who was merely another name among the 600 or so alphabetized into the old barracks at the Dodgers' training base in Vero Beach has emerged over the years as the last one standing?

The ultimate survivor, Lasorda has often suggested, and who can argue?

Who can debate his point, especially now, at 78, amid the ever-increasing chaos and instability at Dodger Stadium, he firmly has his feet on the ground, his fingerprints on the evolving events, his face again that of an organization lacking a general manager and manager as the critical free-agent season begins.

It's remarkable.

http://tinyurl.com/766r3

2005-10-30 08:50:45
49.   HomeDePo
43

I was actually a huge advocate of trading Gagne.

I felt pretty great when an ESPN article came out a week after I developed my theory saying Gagne might be traded. But, Gagne got hurt... Oh well.

-The Home Depo

2005-10-30 08:50:58
50.   Kayaker7
46 Use asterisks to get bold
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-30 08:52:14
51.   Bob Timmermann
Orel Hershiser knows what it's like to be a Dodger. He breathes it.

But he breathed different types of air in Cleveland, New York, San Francisco, and Texas.

2005-10-30 08:54:26
52.   Baseballistic Ben
The Dodgers blew a great thing and that makes me sad. You can count the number of more capable GMs on one hand. I seriously can't disagree with any move he made. Given more years, he would have made us a big market team founded on a solid farm system. That would have been a scary thought for our NL West foes indeed.

That said, I think it's clear that Paul would have lasted longer if he could intimidate the living daylights out of people like Billy Beane could. He tried to be too diplomatic. He tried to take things too slow. What he should have done was completely clean house once he was hired. With dopes like the McCourts running the show, he should have known that letting opposing forces fester inside the organization, inevitably leading the LA Times to have more influence than it should, would lead to disaster for him. Think about it. How bad was it for Paul that Tracy's lineup was essentially a daily F-U to him? How much easier did having Tracy aboard the anti-Paul train make it for LA Times writers?

In the end, Paul wasn't fired because he lacked people skills. He was fired because he was an outsider who was to nice to remove his enemies quickly.

2005-10-30 08:54:32
53.   Eric L
I'm sure my girlfriend is glad that DT (she doesn't even know about DT, but that is besides the point) is around for me to vent or have others share in my misery.
2005-10-30 08:59:34
54.   John A
48 Yes, Tommy Lasorda, blowhard and failed general manager, is the Dodgers' new "brain trust."

Think about it.

2005-10-30 09:03:59
55.   Kayaker7
Yep. Agree whole-heartedly. I'm beginning to hate Tommy Lasordid more and more. What a snake in the grass.
2005-10-30 09:09:23
56.   willhite
38 -
"McCourt sees communication skills as being able to charm the media"

More importantly the ability to charm the McCourts themselves. That may be where DePo had his biggest failing. He didn't properly play the politics of sucking up to your bosses. He thought he was hired to build a winner, but in the long run his failing was not going to the T. Lasorda School of saying whatever works in any particular situation.

Whatever any of us think of Lasorda, we've got to admit he's a real survivor.

2005-10-30 09:10:40
57.   Bob Timmermann
Every day and in every way Tommy Lasorda is starting to remind me of Augusto Pinochet.

I suppose Paul DePodesta is many people's Salvador Allende.

2005-10-30 09:18:27
58.   John A
52 I hate to admit it because DePo seems to be a gentleman and a good dude, but there may be something to what you say. Sharp elbows come in handy, too. Backstabbing, Skullduggery and intimidation may not have been part of DePo's curriculum at Harvard. But my guess is that he incorporates some of those into his repertoire on his next job.
2005-10-30 09:18:29
59.   SiGeg
Great post, Jon. Right now, only Dodger Thoughts and my assumption that Vin Scully is unlikely to be fired (right? RIGHT?) are allowing me to soothe my baseball pain.
2005-10-30 09:20:30
60.   Kayaker7
56 Yeah, but if the GM charms the media, it keep the heat off the McCourts. So, charming the media=charming the McCourts.
2005-10-30 09:20:51
61.   willhite
47 -

DePo quote - a class act to the end

"I truly believe that this franchise is poised to begin the next great era of Dodger baseball," DePodesta said in a statement released by the Dodgers. "I have a tremendous amount of affection for the players, staff and front office, and I wish everyone the best of luck."

2005-10-30 09:23:59
62.   John A
59 I'd love to see McCourt try to fire Vin. I expect McCourt's creditors might have a problem with that.

And, I wonder what Vin REALLY thinks about the continuing foolishness that began for this franchise about 1998. Vin is so stoic, we may never know.

2005-10-30 09:26:11
63.   willhite
60 -

As successful as the McCourts have been in other businesses, they still seem to have self-esteem concerns. This results in being very thin-skinned.

I'm sure we will see Tommy out there leading the charge in the next few months, deflecting as much from the McCourts as he can (and at the same time getting all of that wonderful media coverage for himself).

We tend to look at the baseball world a little bit differently here at DT. Just as we had to keep reminding ourselves that we were in the minority with regard to our opinion of DePo, we must also remember we are in the minority with regard to our opinion of Lasorda. I say that assuming that most DT readers are not big fans of his.

2005-10-30 09:29:19
64.   Kayaker7
63 When I was a casual observer of the Dodgers, I thought Lasorda was great. Now that I've started following the Dodgers more closely, my opinion has changed.
2005-10-30 09:30:27
65.   John A
61 Sure wish that DePo visits this site.
2005-10-30 09:35:12
66.   Kayaker7
65 You can be sure that if he does, it will be with his laptop. ;-)
2005-10-30 09:35:32
67.   Mark
FYI, so far in this thread, two commenters have called him just "Paul", per that espn article. Just in case we weren't 100% certain that the article was talking about this site.
2005-10-30 09:36:24
68.   Steve
I think Lasorda's come in for too much criticism here. He's harmless -- he has no ideology but Dodger ideology. What is that? Who knows? Who cares? Do cheerleaders have ideologies?

If McCourt suddently thinks he needs to chase the Scott Podsedniks of the world to win, or he's convinced that bunting is salvation, or that Bobby Valentine is worth ten wins a year, or that the experience of having traded 10 prospects for 10 36 year old middle relievers is a necessary prerequisite for making the same dumb mistakes and calling it "experience," well, I think McCourt is probably able to make up his own mind about that without turning Lasorda into the Dodgers version of Tom Hagen. I tend to think this is media-driven hype, attempting to continue controversy and sell papers.

2005-10-30 09:36:27
69.   Ken Arneson
57 Is this some sort of corollary to Godwin's law?
2005-10-30 09:37:53
70.   scareduck
52 - "I think it's clear that Paul would have lasted longer if he could intimidate the living daylights out of people like Billy Beane could. He tried to be too diplomatic. He tried to take things too slow. What he should have done was completely clean house once he was hired. With dopes like the McCourts running the show, he should have known that letting opposing forces fester inside the organization, inevitably leading the LA Times to have more influence than it should, would lead to disaster for him."

Explain to me how DePodesta would have been in a position to fire Lasorda, who is rapidly emerging as the eminence grise behind the firings.

2005-10-30 09:38:00
71.   Eric L
66 Yeah, and he found it using Google.
2005-10-30 09:38:03
72.   Steve
How many people in the last 48 hours have called Lasorda "Tommy?"
2005-10-30 09:38:38
73.   Vishal
[67] but most call him depo or depodesta.

depo's problem was definitely that he was not as assertive and authoritative as beane. i think if he had more force of personality he wouldn't have been undermined as easily across the board.

2005-10-30 09:40:40
74.   scareduck
68 - we care if it causes good men to be uprooted because some idiot who once wore the uniform to pull the plug on all his enemies. We care, in sort, if it causes the Dodgers to suck. Which it is.
2005-10-30 09:41:04
75.   Vishal
[69] the thing about godwin's law is that it can be applied to anything, not just nazis. as they say, if you have enough monkeys banging at keyboards...

on the other hand, nazis are indeed inherently more likely than most things because of their immense metaphorical appeal.

2005-10-30 09:41:14
76.   Mark
72 And every time, I think people are talking about Naccarato. Uncanny.
2005-10-30 09:44:23
77.   Eric L
73 DePo seems like the type of guy (again, this is just an assumption) that is good at doing his job (or was), but was too nice of a guy.

At my old job, I had a boss like that. She was totally competent at doing her job, but she is also a very nice person. Her boss on the other hand was not a very nice person. Guess who survived?

2005-10-30 09:44:31
78.   Steve
Allow me to restate -- the assumption appears to be that Tommy is the king and Frank is the pawn. What if Frank is the king and Tommy is the pawn?

Why must we call DePodesta "DePodesta" but Paul LoDuca "Paul" or "Pauly?"

Have we mined the depths of this hypocrisy yet, or shall we go further?

2005-10-30 09:46:37
79.   Bob Timmermann
69

Well, it could be a corollary, but you can also think of DePodesta as the person who wanted to change an old way of running a baseball team (or country) and use ideas that would ruffle the feathers of the old guard (sabermetrics or Communism). While the new ideas were embraced as bold and exciting by some, the old guard wouldn't accept it. And Allende, like DePodesta, didn't help himself out by not running the government (or baseball team) well in the view of some and ticking off the Powers that Be (in both cases you can use "Yankees"). Eventually, the leader of the Old Guard, (Lasorda and Pinochet), had to pull off a coup.

If we don't hear from DePodesta for a while, then we might want to check out some of the renovations to the stadium.

2005-10-30 09:47:47
80.   scareduck
57 - except that of course Allende was incapable of running so much as a municipal bus system. 140% annual inflation, widespread shortages of staples from supermarket shelves, and widespread strikes (some of which were admittedly financed by the CIA) were pretty much the proof that his expropriation of private property was a complete and total disaster.

Other than that, sure, I understand your meaning... ???

2005-10-30 09:48:21
81.   Kayaker7
78 I think the analogy that fits is that McCourt is GW Bush, and Lasord is Karl Rove. Apologies to the Republicans out there.
2005-10-30 09:48:45
82.   Vishal
[79] i don't like the sabermetrics:communism analogy, because communism doesn't work :)
2005-10-30 09:51:08
83.   Steve
Lasorda is not Karl Rove. If McCourt had a Karl Rove, he would not be in the mess he is in. Lasorda, is, at best, Sean Hannity.
2005-10-30 09:51:11
84.   HomeDePo
79 Yesterday I posted something about comparing the Dodgers with Animal Farm. Great minds think alike...

-The Home Depo

2005-10-30 09:51:14
85.   bayareadodger
"DePodesta bet his future on the Dodger Way, transforming the team into one that was going to rely on the farm system, supported by a few outside acquisitions" This comment is stretch that borders on upsetting me when reading it.
2005-10-30 09:52:18
86.   HomeDePo
83

I disagree. Lasorda, at best, is Hannity's fish-like greaseball of an assistand (Alan Colmes or something like that).

2005-10-30 09:52:39
87.   scareduck
78 - "Allow me to restate -- the assumption appears to be that Tommy is the king and Frank is the pawn. What if Frank is the king and Tommy is the pawn?"

You're missing the point, Steve. It's not that anyone's questioning whether Frank is in charge, it's what Tommy's role in this is. Is Tommy a sort of Wormtongue character, whispering bad advice into Frank's ear? I would suggest he is. So does Ken Rosenthal.

"Why must we call DePodesta "DePodesta" but Paul LoDuca "Paul" or "Pauly"?"

Why does it matter?

"Have we mined the depths of this hypocrisy yet, or shall we go further?"

Huh?

2005-10-30 09:54:06
88.   HomeDePo
82

It is okay using communism as an analogy when the thing before it was communism. Remember, communism started off extremely well and it would have stayed that way if we were not so greedy.

2005-10-30 09:54:56
89.   HomeDePo
88 edit

I ment to say: "the thing before it was fascism."

2005-10-30 09:54:57
90.   Kayaker7
83 You're right. Lasorda is not the evil genius Rove is. But, I don't think you can look at the events of the last few days and discount his influence on McCourt.
2005-10-30 09:55:04
91.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I thought the Allende-Pinochet thing was sort of a reach....
2005-10-30 09:57:00
92.   HomeDePo
90

So what you are saying is that Lasorda is just very influential (but not in a good way like Karl Rove).

2005-10-30 09:57:09
93.   LAT
Is this scenario looming on the horizon:

Beane hires Depo back.

With his inside knowledge, they target core pieces of the Jacksonville squad and agree to take the controversial Choi off our hands.

They dangle Zito in front of the new Dodger GM. Tommy, Frank and Plashke bless the deal.

The future Dodger dynasty is now the A's future.

Am I paranoid?

2005-10-30 09:58:57
94.   Vishal
[87] i think he was referring to the fact that pro-depo people get mocked for "lovingly" referring to depodesta as "paul" on their blogs (i forget who wrote that, probably plaschke), but the people who are doing the mocking are the same who lovingly refer to "tommy" and "paulie", "bulldog", etc...

on a side note, considering how we were among the first to be calling for an orel infusion several months ago, it's extremely ironic and sad the manner in which that chicken has come home to roost.

2005-10-30 09:59:37
95.   Rob M
I have a feeling that the ultimate fallout between DePodesta and McCourt is exactly what Plaschke suggested - that McCourt didn't like the direction DePodesta was taking with the managerial search, that he tried to impose his own vision on the process and force him to interview Hershiser, that DePo chafed at the interference in the process (ultimately not attending the infamous dinner) and, in effect told McCourt "if you don't let me do my job this isn't gonna work."

I also don't doubt that McCourt was influenced by Lasorda and others in the front office. Plasche's article hints at this - the reference to the 5 interviewed candidates indicating DePo's "lack of contacts." That sounds like something that might have been drifting out of Jamie McCourt's and Lasorda's offices, no? Whatever the case, McCourt lost faith in DePo, and he's made himself look like a fool in the process. Has anybody in the media aside from Plaschke praised this move? The national press is almost uniformly scornful (to the extent that they even care).

Jon, this site is outstanding. You're coverage of this team is outstanding. Thank you.

2005-10-30 10:00:10
96.   Steve
Two different points, Rob, your confusion is in the fact that they are not related.

I guess I am suggesting that I'm not missing the point as much as minimizing that particular point. Bad advice is easily ignored. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if Lasorda's advice was simply reinforcing what Frank already believed

As to the other points, it is a particular piece of gall, and the worst line (of many) in Crasnick's odious ESPN article yesterday, where he refers to "stat-head web sites" who refer to DePodesta as "Paul." Even if these existed, which they don't, the personalization of someone you appreciate but do not know in the sporting world is not limited to "stat-heads." I say this as neither a "stat-head" nor someone who is in the habit of calling "DePodesta" Paul. It was the kind of line that makes me glad DePodesta is gone just so I don't have to read things like it anymore. More irony.

2005-10-30 10:01:34
97.   HomeDePo
Maybe John Kruk was happy about this move.
2005-10-30 10:02:19
98.   Bob Timmermann
94
Jerry Crasnick was the writer with the mention of people calling DePodesta "Paul". Plaschke rarely uses DePodesta's first or last names as he apparently is not worthy of repsect by him.
2005-10-30 10:04:00
99.   Bob Timmermann
95
Ken Rosenthal thought the ouster of DePodesta was justified, mainly because he didn't think DePodesta could handle the personalities involved in running a team.
2005-10-30 10:05:51
100.   scareduck
93 - well, it is Halloween tomorrow. What better time to start making up scary stories?

96 - bad advice is easily ignored by men of good judgment, character, and discerning intelligence. McCourt appears to have none of these attributes. Whether Lasorda is merely pouring fuel on McCourt's prejudices or not, the result is the same.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-30 10:06:18
101.   Marty
I'd like to think that the Lasorda-McCourt analogy is more like Barney advising Homer Simpson in Moe's bar.
2005-10-30 10:06:50
102.   molokai
As long as Steve is here I don't need to post since he seems to make my point better then myself. I am quite scared however that I have the same viewpoint as a lawyer educated in Utah. Given that knowledge, it is quite possible my viewpoint is wrong and I will have to rethink my positions.
2005-10-30 10:08:20
103.   Kayaker7
102 Or Milhouse advising Bart...
2005-10-30 10:09:09
104.   Bob Timmermann
"Hey Bart, want to go play with the old X-ray machine at the abandoned hospital?"
2005-10-30 10:09:31
105.   Vishal
i'm not optimistic about the future considering the indicators coming from the dodger camp, but i am definitely willing to suspend my chicken little doomsday lamentations until we find out who the new people are.
2005-10-30 10:10:16
106.   molokai
I miss Icaros, usually he has some humor to help in moments like these. Has he taken a winter sabbatical?
2005-10-30 10:12:31
107.   Kayaker7
Well, as Vin Scully says, "Baseball is a maddening game." Even when you are right, it can take a very long time to be vindicated. Even when you are wrong, you can look good in the short term: the Nationals in the first half of 2005, the White Sox all year.
2005-10-30 10:13:31
108.   Steve
I'll take that as a dig at Utah.

Lasorda has no accountability within the organization. He can say A, B, or C, or Z (though I suspect he's always just saying the same thing -- Dodger Way -- Dodger Way), which is essentially tabula rasa -- anyone can draw whatever understanding they want from the Dodger Way, since the Dodger Way is epic myth. One person thinks its pitching and defense; I think that anyone who thinks that wasn't watching the team's defense for, oh, thirty years or so. But I digress. I think that this reliance on demonizing Lasorda necessarily minimizes McCourt's own role in all of this, and I think that undermines the concerns most of us have about McCourt going forward.

2005-10-30 10:14:16
109.   Mark
96 Steve - it is clear to me that Crasnick was talking about this site in particular.

Witness http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/278736.html where Jon is comparing EQA, Rate2, and VORP. Witness the comments in that thread. To the ESPN gang, that's a stat-head site. Granted, I would much rather be associated with a known "stat-head" site than to be associated with ESPN, but that's me.

Crasnick probably browses this site extensively for material. He sees some of the more outrageous DePodesta apologists and then paints the broad generalization from there. I mean, with all that's been posted over the past 24 hours, what with people wanting to egg the McCourts house, people exclaiming that they'll never root for the Dodgers again but will cheer for any team DePodesta rebounds with, people calling Jamie McCourt any number of insults, it isn't hard for an ESPN journalist to backwards-stumble his way into pigeonholing the site.

2005-10-30 10:14:42
110.   dagwich
For once I am a dittohead -- today's post is spot on. This site has been really fun to read this weekend, painful as the news has been.

A couple of points:
1) Jon, is there any chance you can get an interview with Depo about what happened and what is in his future? I would think from his perspective, this would be an ideal forum to "speak".

2) My sense of the situation is that while Depo has the arrogance it takes to be successful as a GM (see Moneyball, the book) he never read "How to Swim with Sharks", a short treatise on the care and feeding of execs, academics and others who exist at very high levels of decision making. Baseball is still a good old boy system and it seems you can't succeed just by existing on the plane of pure reason.

2005-10-30 10:14:49
111.   molokai
Utah is a fine state. I hear they have a great Jazz tradition.
2005-10-30 10:22:00
112.   Bob Timmermann
There is a book titled "The Dodgers Way to Play Baseball". Al Campanis wrote it.

In 1954.

They used to sell at the souvenir stands at Dodger Stadium. It was a paper back and had a cartoon of a batter standing with his foot literally in a bucket and a coach looking on a disapproving manner.

But if you want to go back to the Dodgers of the 1950s and 1960s (and only the good teams, not the crappy ones like 1958 and 1967 and 1968), you need the following things to come back:
1) the reserve clause
2) Sandy Koufax
3) a pitcher's mound that is the height of Mount Lukens
4) no PEDs (except for greenies)
5) have the ghost of Braven Dyer take over the body of Bill Plaschke.

2005-10-30 10:22:18
113.   Steve
He also learned about TV theme songs and the First Season of the Rockford Files then. You would think Crasnick would have more respect. It's possible he has to read quickly because of the regular delousing sessions he has to go through from hanging out with that agent he wrote about for so long.
2005-10-30 10:24:56
114.   Steve
have the ghost of Braven Dyer take over the body of Bill Plaschke.

But that would mean...gasp...Bill Plaschke might gain a soul!

2005-10-30 10:27:17
115.   Bob Timmermann
We discussed the first season of the Rockford Files? Did I miss that? Man, where was I when that discussion was going on?
2005-10-30 10:27:55
116.   Suffering Bruin
93 That is good stuff.

Lasorda: "We had to get this guy. This is a guy who can win games and will win games for a long time to come. This is the guy we need. Barry Zito has a curveball that falls of a table and the National League hasn't seen a guy like this and he's going to be great for us, our number one guy. Orel is playing a game of 150-pitch long toss with him right now to build his arm strength. It's a long season, you know."

Plaschke:
"Did you see it?

Did you see the Dodger Way in action today?

We should thank the guy most responsible. It's only fair.

Thank you, stat-guy.

Thank you for getting team computer to trade Barry Zito for five guys who might never be good (LaRoche, Guzman, Billingsley, Martin, Broxton).

Thank for you returning to a place that has still not won a playoff series.

Thank for you for taking a first-baseman who can't play (Choi) for nothing.

Thank you for being you so we fans can recognize the players on the field."

McCourt: "Pat Gillick is being replaced today. He apparently had problems programming his speed-dial with some of the other baseball people we have that have been following the game for 60 years now and that's impressive. This kind of miscommunication is understandable but we feel, me and my baseball people, that now is the time to move on. We appreciate what Pat has brought to this organization and I promise you that stability is always my goal and will continue to be something we strive for as we work to return to the great Dodger Way of doing things.

In the interim, one of the great Dodgers of the past, Jay Johnstone, will be interim GM."

2005-10-30 10:53:39
117.   Suffering Bruin
It would appear that I have uttered the last word on this topic.
2005-10-30 10:54:09
118.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
"I'm furious at the McCourts right now. But I'm also disappointed in DePodesta for providing his critics with the ammunition they needed."

This is exactly my take. As much as I was behind DePo, it's disappointing to know that he might have kept his job if he were able to articulate his vision. He should have found a local columnist early on who would at least listen to his views, to counter some of the misinformation. But he seemed to ignore the local media. When you're pushing radical change, that's a big mistake. And it's surprising to see that point lost on a Harvard cum laude.

He's at the forefront of a movement. Couldn't he at least try to explain his decisions?

2005-10-30 10:55:38
119.   underdog
Sorry if I missed this earlier, but did anyone with ESPN insider access read and summarize Peter Gammons thoughts on this situation? They're obviously critical of the McCourts, too, but I can't read the article itself.

Thanks!

As for me, I'm temporarily cooled off from all this ridiculousness. Maybe it's a good night's sleep, maybe it's wanting to wait to see who they hire before fully casting judgement (even though this is all undeniably an extremely poorly handled PR fiasco at best)... Maybe it's that today's a day for NFL action, or maybe it's just being fully in denial that my team is owned by fools. But for this moment, I feel fairly undepressed.

C

2005-10-30 10:57:34
120.   Bob Timmermann
Unfortunately, the only columnist on DePodesta's side writes for the San Bernardino Sun, which is sort of like having me being your biggest supporter when it comes to influence.
2005-10-30 10:59:38
121.   Suffering Bruin
118 Henson was able to get information from DePodesta. Also, DePodesta gave several radio interviews.

It is notable that Plaschke/Simers, the most notorious "journalists" in the city, either didn't bother to check or decided to selectively quote him for their own purposes.

Understand, BT&T, Plaschke/Simers are men without desire for anything deeper than what they perceive to be true. An incoming GM would do well to get on their good side--whatever that means--because after day one, it's too late. They've already pigeonholed your identity and good luck trying to shake it.

2005-10-30 11:05:12
122.   Eric L
Me and my bro were looking at some old Dodger cards on ebay right now. I showed him one of the 1954 Topps Duke Snider cards that they have. (I own one)......

In my brother's words..

"Didn't they trade him too?"

2005-10-30 11:07:02
123.   dzzrtRatt
As much as I believe the Internet is, to quote Noah Cross, "the future, Mr. Gittes!" I sure wish some MSN newspaper would publish the essay Jon wrote above. Even with its even-handed, reasoned tone, it is a hard slap across the face to ignoramuses like Plaschke who keen and moan about a "Dodger tradition" that they have criminally misrepresented.

If the White Sox are McCourt's new model (is there any evidence of this?), then fine. Go out and get pitching for next year like they got this year. But he must bear in mind: Of their starting four, two were developed from within--Buerlhe and Garland. Garland was a .500 pitcher until this season, when he experienced significant improvement in ERA and walks allowed. A third, Contreras, was acquired from the notoriously impatient Yankees, who would surely love in retrospect to have given Contreras a little more time to develop.

I'd love for McCourt to ask Tommy to explain how the Sox got Konerko, who managed to hit .294 with 24 home runs and an .862 OPS in 1999, the year after he was traded from the Dodgers. Protecting that prospect from being dealt for short-term help might have helped LA win a couple more division titles by now. Just as Bobby Jenks looks like a steal from an Angels' management that didn't do enough to protect a prospect who could've helped them a lot this year. Much to learn from those stories.

He might also want to check out the luck factor. The '05 Sox are the mirror image of the '05 Dodgers. Career years from many players. Not free of injuries, but the core team we saw in the playoffs played most of the year. A change here and there in the hoodoo, and it's quite possible the '05 Dodgers could have been much better, and the Sox much worse.

The White Sox were, basically, a team of absolute nobodies on the baseball scene. The PR department, I'm sure, threw up their hands at this collection of guys from the minor league system like Crede, Rowand and Garland, castoffs like Konerko, Uribe and Contreras and said, "Kenny? WTF?" Then the GM traded for some new players--and the PR guys probably said: "Scott Who? Podsednick? That old retread Jermaine Dye? AJ Pierzynski, who couldn't even hang onto his job in San Francisco? You're kidding, right? Those are your big moves?"

The Sox of '05 were built according to a plan quite comparable to DePodesta's. In carrying it out, there was a need for patience. There was frustration. There were things that didn't work. But Williams was given the time he needed, by an owner so mean and arrogant he could eat both McCourts on a shishkebob.

So, yes, Frank & Jamie, study the White Sox.

2005-10-30 11:07:08
124.   Curtis Lowe
I usualy post my opinions on this bligsite at least once or twice a day, I havent posted or had access to the internet or a news source at around 6p.m. The firing of Depo is not the ened of the world for the Dodgers, I may not have had this same reaction had what happened friday night never occurred, on friday around 6 p.m a neighbor of mine was screwing around with butaine when it suddenly exploded in his face and caused a massive chain reaction of high heat chemical burn eventualy making his house go up in flames as well as mine, luckily he survived with only 25% of his body destroyed from 3rd degree burns, my wife and i were able to salvage most of our possetions closest to our hearts, thank God. I guess the point I'm trying to make is this, when something as trivial as a GM being fired happens, remember about those who arent fortunate enough to be able to care about a baseball team, remember those affected by the hurricanes and every day disasters, have faith and remain strong, hey at least Gagne hasnt been fired yet.
2005-10-30 11:08:56
125.   Bob Timmermann
Paul Oberjuerge's column in the SB Sun.

http://www.sbsun.com/sports/ci_3166220

2005-10-30 11:10:59
126.   bummed big time
Today I am doing much better then yesterday. I watched the press conference and Mccourt should be embarrassed about not being prepared for it. He was almost as bad as Bush at the beginning of his presidency.

I really liked Depodesta a lot. His moves made sense and I had the feeling that we finally had someone who had a plan and was rational and preparing us to be great for a very long time. His inability to communicate and do the little things bothered me a little bit you cant have everything.

If Hersisher becomes a part of the front office and Valentine comes in, we may be okay as long as they think long term and not short term and trade off all of the prospects for a win now situation. I look forward to Laroche at third and Guzman in left with Loney at first with Billingsley and Jackson dominating in the rotation.

I am not going to waste any time sharing thoughts on McCourt. Everyone has already said enough. I cant believe MLB let this guys become an owner of an MLB team. He is not only an embarrassment to Dodger fans but to MLB as well.

2005-10-30 11:11:05
127.   Bob Timmermann
124

I'm very sorry Curtis. At least you are in one piece. You have to start from there and then work you're way up. I think you have the right perspective.

2005-10-30 11:14:28
128.   bigcpa
Great piece Jon.

Today's LA Times reads like a cruel sabermetric nightmare. Did I overlook the bonfire of 5,000 copies of Moneyball outside the Stadium Club?

5 writers weigh in without a single counterpoint. Unless you consider "Why fire him now?" a thoughtful analysis. Or "Why hire DePodesta at all?" Not one of the 5 writers questions whether Lasorda is a qualified architect of a winning team in 2006. Or whether it's actually possible to improve a roster and still lose 22 more games.

2005-10-30 11:16:24
129.   Telemachos
Curtis, I'm sorry to hear about those horrible events. You're right, arguing about sports is trivial compared to real-life tragedy. I'm glad to hear you and your family are OK and hope your neighbor recovers from his injuries.
2005-10-30 11:18:05
130.   trainwreck
Nice to hear you and your family are safe Curtis.
2005-10-30 11:25:05
131.   Curtis Lowe
Thanks for the comments, and please pray for us to any diety you feel comfortable with, my post shouldnt make anyone sad but should instead help put things into perspective so that noone gets to worked up over it or loses any sleep, hopefuly our favorite club can come out on top, till we talk again,

Curt.

2005-10-30 11:48:36
132.   Icaros
I miss Icaros, usually he has some humor to help in moments like these. Has he taken a winter sabbatical?

That warms my heart, Molokai. I started a new job last week and am in the process of moving from my parents' place in the suburbs to a tiny-yet-cozy apartment in San Francisco.

I've been lurking, but mostly after-hours.

I wish I had something fun to say about all of this, but I'm pretty bummed. No matter who the GM is, firing a guy after less than two years of an admitted long-range plan makes zero sense.

2005-10-30 11:56:05
133.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, there was one sensible opinion piece in the LA Times by a noted member of SABR, Jules Tygiel.

http://tinyurl.com/8bavl

However, he was writing about the California initiative process.

But still....

2005-10-30 12:00:25
134.   Vishal
wow, that really sucks curtis. i'm glad your family escaped unharmed, and i wish you the best as you try to put things back together. good luck, man.
2005-10-30 12:05:30
135.   Linkmeister
Given the turmoil at the LAT, would Plaschke be so joyous if he were given his walking papers by the publishers, I wonder?

Let's see...single-sentence paragraphs translate into .002 readers per word...not good enough, boyo!

2005-10-30 12:07:57
136.   Bob Timmermann
Here's my dilemma.
I have family members who work for newspapers. It's their livelihood. My family has grown up reading the paper all the time. I grew up in a househould that subscribed to usually two papers at a time. We all would read the paper in the morning before we went to school or work. I even get a little check from a newspaper every couple of weeks.

And now, I really don't want to get the LA Times anymore. I hate it. I just hate it. Can I, in good conscience, just cut the cord?

2005-10-30 12:11:56
137.   scareduck
116 - heh, simply brilliant. BTW, how many minutes after the McCourts announce that they've hired Gillick do they turn around and announce he's fired?

The Plaschke synthesis is hilarious and spot-on, by the way.

123 - I didn't believe the 2005 Chisox were any good, and I still don't; they're one of the luckiest teams in the history of the World Series (measured by difference between actual winning percentage and Pythagorean standings).

- Dye? An injury risk.
- Contreras? A 33-year-old having a bounceback season away from the Bronx.
- Pierzynski? Career year.
- Freddie Garcia? Didn't you hear the parties they were throwing down at U.S.S. Mariner when he got traded?

http://ussmariner.com/?m=200406&paged=5 (scroll to the bottom)

Of the four players above, I expect every single one will have a significant regression. If your plan is called "sign a bunch of castoffs and hope for miracles from your pitching coach and career years from the offense", sure, it's a great idea...

2005-10-30 12:22:00
138.   Vishal
[136] yes, you can. as i've said, a couple years ago i really loved the LAT. and it'd been my favorite paper since i was a kid. but by 2004 i couldn't in good conscience continue to support them any longer, so i convinced my family to cancel their subscription. i don't have a favorite paper any more. i mainly read the news on the internet now (mainly the economist, slate, and articles from google news), and i listen to NPR in the car.
2005-10-30 12:27:14
139.   Mark
136 Here's how you cut the cord.

Get yourself a copy of an RSS reader. NetNewsWire on the Mac, or the equivalent for the PC.

Subscribe to this feed: http://tinyurl.com/a3aga

This will get you all the news for "Los Angeles". You can (obviously) make it more or less specific by doing Google News searches for your local hometown, etc.

This feed: http://tinyurl.com/7cvm9

...gets you all the news for "Dodgers".

I have a list of about fifteen of these sorts of Google News feeds that completely replaces the LA Times.

2005-10-30 12:30:35
140.   Mark
Whoops. In my previous post, the second tinyurl just points at the page. You need to click on the RSS link on the left to have that go into your RSS reader.
2005-10-30 12:32:47
141.   walbers
136: just do it Bob. I'm on a business trip in Asia and the only thing that has kept me from going off the deep end over this whole mess is the fact that I haven't been able to read the LA Times. I have every intention of cancelling my subscription when I return this next weekend. Maybe there's a message to be sent if we all cancel.....I can get boxscores from my Ventura County paper and analysis from here, 6-4-2 and Andrew's (need a new name) site.

I have to admit that I had thrown away my allegiance to the team when I heard this news. but it's Jon's insightful analysis and the passionate posts from other readers who may just keep me around. I hate McCourt and what he's done to our team...but perhaps a 40+ year love affair is too hard to quit.

rgds, will

2005-10-30 12:35:54
142.   Bob Timmermann
The deed has been done.
2005-10-30 12:38:25
143.   werthgagne31
I don't know if this has been said here, but i believe depodesta got fired because him and mccourt didn't agree on the new manager.
I believe with mccourt's opinion about dodger history and tradition, he wants a former dodger player to be the manager and depodesta wanted someone who would manage with depodesta's philosophy.
Plus in the press conference mccourt said he wanted everyone to be on the same page, pulling in the same direction, so i believe mccourt and depodesta were not on the same page as far as the new manager is concerned.
Anyways, mccourt is an idiot, he let someone with the right vision go and now he's going to bring in old fashioned manager and gm, which means an overhaul of the roster which means a couple bad seasons for the dodgers, and if you believe in sabermetrics and not old fashioned baseball, then bad seasons for years to come.
We know mccourt will have a 90 something million dollar payroll if that, and the only way to be sucessfull with a low payroll is to get the best that you can out of that low payroll, efficient use of the money, by using sabermetrics, and its clear that mccourt doesn't believe in sabermetrics, otherwise he would have kept depodesta, so get use to mediocre players playing for the dodgers (mcgriff,jordan types) guys past their prime, hello dan evans era again, and probably a mixture of the dan evans era and the kevin malone era.
My prediction is that the new gm will get "past their prime" free agents that don't cost much and he will trade the farm for quality guys in their prime, with the end result being we will have some quality players and some past their prime players AND NO FARM.
What a shame.
2005-10-30 12:40:24
144.   dzzrtRatt
136 Check out the November issue of LA Magazine, Kevin Roderick's article on the Times' recent management changes. There is a very telling conversation he has with a local civic activist, David Abel, who reads news every day, but admits that, nowadays, he can go days without reading the Times, "and I don't miss it."

I still get it, too, but I'm thinking the same way as you. It's not really a protest. Every newspaper I've ever read regularly had a columnist I hated, more than one. It's that the product is so lacking in importance, depth. It doesn't have the old newspaper values, but it lacks the immediacy and interactivity of this medium. It's simply outmoded.

Other newspapers like the Wall Street Journal, NY Times and USA Today have maintained their relevancy and value, somehow. Not the LA Times. I predicted it will be the first major metro daily to fold, leaving its home city without one--"and (as Don Adams would say) loving it!"

2005-10-30 12:44:11
145.   Dr Love
Pierzynski? Career year.

AJP had anything but a career year. In 5 years as an every day player, he had his lowest OPS, second lowest SLG, lowest OBP, second lowest OPS+, lowest BA, highest strikeouts, and lowest amount of doubles. He hit a few more HRs than usual (playing in a HR friendly park), and drew a few more walks than usual. Other than that he had a bad season by his standards.

Contreras? A 33-year-old having a bounceback season away from the Bronx.

He's played two and a half seasons. I agree that he won't have the same season again, he didn't really have anything to bounce back from.

Freddie Garcia? Didn't you hear the parties they were throwing down at U.S.S. Mariner when he got traded?

Garcia had his third worst ERA+ of his seven year career. He had two very good years, one good year, and two mediocre years in Seattle, then was traded in the middle of a third very good year and finished up with a better than good year. He had another good year in 2005.

You're not giving those three players the proper credit for their seasons, whether it be too much credit or not enough.

2005-10-30 12:44:27
146.   sanchez101
Is there any better example of an organization that has become a prisoner to its own history than the Dodgers? And a missinterpeted view of history at that. Why is it that baseball is so afraid of the "cutting edge", almost every other business and organization would pride it self on being a leading innovator in their field, but in baseball its best to just keep doing things the same way theyve all ways been done? With Depodesta we had the Dodgers had a chance at becoming something new and improved, something based on new ideas. Im afraid that now the Dodgers will now be run with some-sort of cockeyed mythology that has begun to be taked as fact.

So, Mr. McCourt, let me get this straight, in the shadow of the World Series, one that saw Paul Konerko lead the White Sox to victory, and one year after Pedro Martinez wins a ring, you deside to listen to Tommy Lasorda's sage advice? Ya, I think you need to do a little more study on Dodgers history.

Im sure this has probably already been brought up here, but it seems very likely to me that Depodesta ends up in San Diego soon with Sandy Alderson in charge. I dont really want to think to much about that.

2005-10-30 12:44:30
147.   Louis in SF
Great post Jon, and if you could get an interview with DePodesta that would be fantastic. By the way this whole story illustrates why annonmyous sources are bad. At some point you need to know both who said it and why. Much of what I want to have said has been said. In an earlier post, I pointed out and a few others as well: ascribing all evil to Lasorda is a big mistake and lets McCourt off the hook way too easily. Sadly many in the LAT seem to be doing this especially Newhan, and while the San Bernadino Sun article is great, I think it is in correct partially since Lasorda was on board with Collins a decision which in my mind made the most sense as a managerial candidate that could meet all points of view within the Dodger organization.He got along with DePodesta and also had a good sense of the prospects that would be coming up.

As many have noted what we are really seeing is a reactive strategy by an owner who I think has never really been honest about his finances or expectations for the Dodgers and at what point we will see a coherent management policy and philosophy is unclear and I doubt the present owner is capable of one. I just hope we don't go down the road of the Clippers...But on the bright side there is an old tired cliche that it is better to be lucky than good maybe next year we can be lucky.

2005-10-30 12:47:01
148.   Bob Timmermann
But how do I keep track of my favorite comic strips now?
2005-10-30 12:50:46
149.   dzzrtRatt
124 Curtis, how terrible. All of my prayers and good wishes are with you and your wife, and I hope the resultant chaos subsides for you soon.

I'll do my best, as will everyone else I'm sure, to keep DT a little vacation from reality, which we all need.

2005-10-30 12:53:46
150.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I'm too disheartened to read through all the comments. I've always been willing to give McCourt a chance, but it's clear now that that was a chance to make himself look like a fool.

With all that said, we still have a great farm system, and we're still the Dodgers. If we can get a competent GM, I think we may end up fine, with no credit to the McCourts, but the Dodgers are more than just ownership. Gillick or Ng would both be okay as GM, and Orel as field manager (I must assume that's what will happen) should hopefully work out. I don't think I'll ever forgive the McCourts for what they've done here, but I think the franchise may in the end weather all this, although we may be in rough sledding for 06.

WWSH

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-30 12:56:01
151.   sanchez101
143. Did you get a chance to listen to McCourts press confrence, its on their mlb.com page? McCourt didnt seem to know why Depodesta got fired, and when asked what qualitites he wanted to see in the new GM, McCourt claimed he wanted someone with experience. When a reporter asked him if that meant he wanted someone with experience as a GM, he seemed a little confused and rambled that experience as a GM is not neccessary but that it means he wants someone that convinces him that he can do the job. McCourt really seems overwellmed.

If i have to hear the stupid quote, supposedly attributed to Lasorda, about everyone pulling on the same end of the rope, im going to hang myself with said rope. Im sure it a great motivational approach for ballplayers and a manager, but is there nothing to be said for a diversity of opinion. A good manager should have a wide array of opinions to consult, not a group-think mentality that saves people the effort of innovation and experimentation.

2005-10-30 12:58:24
152.   bill cox
Cut to Winter meetings,
In an exceptionally busy trading time in the winter meetings,Dodger marionette...er GM Jamie McCourt assisted by puppeteer..er "consultant" Tom Lasorda set to work transforming the team and "undoing failed GM,Paul Depodesta's work" in Lasorda's words.
In a move to shore up the leadoff spot,center fielder Dave Roberts was re-acquired from the Padres for minor league pitchers Chad Billingsley,Chuck Tiffany and Greg Miller along with outfielder J.D. Drew ."The kid's got wheels like Maury Wills",Lasorda said of Roberts currently recovering from hamstring surgery on both legs."We didn't need Drew because we got Grabowski and I love this kid Repko.He's a 5 tool star in the making,reminds me of *&%^$# Jose Gonzalez"
The trades continued with Brad Penny,Dioner Navarro and Russell Martin going to the Marlins for catcher Paul Loduca and outfielder Juan Encarnacion"I never understood what Depodesta was thinking trading solid vets like that.Lasorda said"adding"the catching will be fine with Paulie and recently signed free agent Mike Piazza"He's my godson you know Bill"Lasorda told an admiring beat writer Bill Plaske.
In a further return to the fabled "Dodger Way",manager Bill Valentine's staff was fleshed out with hitting coach Franklin Stubbs,pitching coach Doug Rau,bench coach Steve Sax,bullpen catcher Dave Sax and infield instructor Jeff Hamilton.
2005-10-30 12:59:05
153.   molokai
My biggest regret of this whole thing is that the McCourts didn't get behind Depo and try to work as a group to prove the LA Times wrong in their combined hatred of the McCourts and Depo. Now I have to root for a team that if it succeeds, the Plaschke's of the world will take credit. That is the sour pill I had to swallow this morning.

137
That is just plain silly. Other then pitchers the only CWS hitter who had a career year was Konerko. Rowand / AJ / Podboy / Uribe all didn't come close their previous highs judged by VORP. They missed their best hitter all season. Just because the team is advertised as a small ball team does not mean it is. It played very much like a Earl Weaver team with great pitching, great defense and big time home runs. It is true that Ozzie handicapped the team by going small ball much to often but he made up for it with the best use of a pitching staff I've ever seen in post season. Even BP has admitted that they just whiffed on how important the defense was to the WS pitching staff. You don't march through the Red Sox / Angels / Astro's/ and go 11-1 by being lucky. Why can't anyone admit this was a good team just because a saber savvy GM didn't build it.

2005-10-30 13:19:31
154.   werthgagne31
151
Yep i watched the press conference.

""""McCourt didnt seem to know why Depodesta got fired, and when asked what qualitites he wanted to see in the new GM, McCourt claimed he wanted someone with experience."""""

mccourt didn't wanna just come out and say depodesta got fired because we disagreed on the new manager. And "someone with experience" means an old fashioned gm.

""""""""McCourt really seems overwellmed""""

that's because he's caving into the pressure to get a former dodger player as the manager, which means an old fashioned manager. And he wants the gm and manager on the same page, which means an old fashioned gm.
Get ready for old fashioned baseball as far as the dodgers are concerned and put that together with a low payroll and you get mediocre teams and mediocre results.

2005-10-30 13:20:49
155.   Odysseus
Sorry if it's already been mentioned, but from the LA Times/Henson report, " DePodesta learned that he would be fired from a reporter Friday."

That's real classy. That's the "Dodger way." Wasn't one of the gripes that DePo didn't treat people well? That he didn't communicate well? That he wasn't good with PR? That he didn't have good people skills.

Sounds like the McCourts are hypocrites and should be firing themselves.

I'm well aware that is is a form of ad hominem attack, and that it doesn't go to the substance of the charges against DePo. It's just annoying, and indicates to me that (1) I don't know if the charges against DePo are true, (2) but even assuming they are, it sounds like an excuse an scapegoating.

It just keeps getting worse and worse.

The McCourts are clueless. Maybe they'll hire good people. But I have a feeling that they're just clueless reactionaries with huge egos who are in way over their heads.

It's going to be hard to continue to be a Dodgers fan.

2005-10-30 13:23:45
156.   Odysseus
154 My worst regret is that the McCourts are the owners. They are clueless.

I've said it before, but I'll repeat it. Tracy drove me crazy, but I think there are many managers who are worse. I'd venture to say that Tracy is in the top half at least. I fear that we may end up someone worse.

If you're going to fire DePo, keep Tracy unless you KNOW you have someone better lined up. If you're going to let Tracy go, keep DePo.

But clearly, the McCourts don't have a plan, and they don't have a clue. Getting rid of both is prima facie evidence of this, and I haven't seen anything to rebut this.

2005-10-30 13:25:39
157.   Odysseus
Again quoting from the LA Times article, "McCourt ... did not invite DePodesta to a dinner interview with Hershiser"

Again, one of the charges against DePo is false, if we can believe Henson's reporting.

The more I learn, the worse it is.

2005-10-30 13:27:10
158.   Odysseus
Another quote from Henson that is evidence of McCourt as a reactionary and incompetent:

"Injuries played a huge role in the team's disappointing finish, a factor McCourt indicated weeks ago absolved the front office of blame.

But somewhere along the way, he changed his mind."

2005-10-30 13:28:31
159.   werthgagne31
Get ready for old fashioned hit and run bunting, moving the runners over baseball and a mixture of dan evans (signing free agent past their prime mcgriff,jordan type players) and kevin malone (trading the farm for quality players), but overall mediocre teams and mediocre results, 500 ball or below 500 ball.
GOODBYE FARM.
2005-10-30 13:30:42
160.   MikeB
Maybe we only have to put up with the McCourts for another 3 years or so.

Here's something to consider (borrowed from Baseball Prospectus, "The Daily Prospectus: Depreciation Madness" , by Derek Zumsteg, Jan. 7, 2002.

...in the United States tax code, there's a provision that allows teams to write off the salaries of players when they acquire the team on a limited schedule as depreciation. It's an easy, fun way for them to show massive losses while they make tons and tons of delicious cash money. The write-off lasts five years, and then you sell the team for its increased value and find something else to do, like buy an arena football team, or make a nuisance of yourself in another sport."

(Skipping down a ways to this next paragraph, which is amazingly similar to the current situation.)

"* Dodgers, bought in 1998, are suddenly the object of sale rumors as News Corp, having established Fox Sports Los Angeles, has run out the tax break and wants to use the money elsewhere. Also, I don't think they ever really figured out how to run the team."

(and finally)

"But there's your pattern - only one franchise currently known to be up for sale was in the same hands for more than seven years. It makes sense: there's a huge financial incentive to buy a team, and then when that incentive is gone, why hang around? Charge someone else, who has a brand new huge financial incentive to get in on the action."

For BP subscribers, the entire article is posted at:
http://tinyurl.com/8bflq

2005-10-30 13:38:05
161.   werthgagne31
The worst situation for a team is to have a non sabermetrics gm and a low payroll.
We allready know we have a low payroll, and i'm afraid we are about to get a non sabermetrics gm.
Dark days are coming.
2005-10-30 13:49:28
162.   scareduck
153 - why does everyone assume that any and all criticism of the Sox is automatically from a saber perspective?

Going back on Pierzynski, clearly I was shooting from the hip on him as he's had far better seasons in Minnesota than either of his SF or Chicago ones. And 145 is also right -- Garcia, who I mostly remember for his 2003, was better than all that, but the M's fans were nonetheless very happy to be rid of him. I take DMZ pretty seriously, and when he's pleased to see someone go, I have to believe there was a reason for him to leave. As for Dye, well, his injury history speaks for itself.

2005-10-30 13:57:36
163.   Bob Timmermann
Dye's problem is that he keeps getting hit by pitches on a part of his arm so much that the bones sound like wood.
2005-10-30 14:01:14
164.   GoBears
161 I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that the Dodgers have a low payroll. It might not be as high as we'd like, or as McCourt "promised," but it's still one of the highest in the league.

That said, playing baseball the Steinbrenner way only works if you have his money. And even if $80-100M is high, it ain't $220M.

2005-10-30 14:04:58
165.   MikeB
161. I believe the Dodgers will dump payroll big-time this year.

They'll use the return of the Dodger Way (Lasorda, Valentine, Hersheiser) as an excuse to trade the big contracts, and force feed the young guns on to the MLB roster. Plaschke and Simers will buy into it because Tommy and Orel and Bobby V will make it look like a good baseball decision. Play the kids! Teach them old time Dodger baseball. So what if we lose 90 games a year for the next two or three years. At least we'll give out good quotes and slap you on the back and say howdy whenever you show up in the clubhouse.

We're going to look like the Royals for a while.

The reason: The McCourts are highly leveraged. They've got a huge note held by BofA with the Dodgers as collateral. But they must be nervous because now they're seeing a slowing of real estate prices, higher interest rates, etc. affecting the local economy.

How can you assure that your base revenue streams - ticket sales, parking, concessions, all keep coming in at a steady pace so you can service the debt? Well, you can't ask your GM to guarantee a successful season. Stuff happens! Injuries, trades that don't work out, more injuries, lousy PR.

To hedge your bet (excuse me, investment), you slap some new paint on the old house, do some weeding, water the lawn, and bingo, you've got curbside appeal. Now, when your depreciation runs out, and the roster is mostly young with a low base payroll, and the stadium's all spruced up, you sell high and leave for home (Boston).

2005-10-30 14:20:56
166.   werthgagne31
164
There are plenty of teams with 115-130 million dollar payroll.
To me, 90 something or less is low payroll.
Everytime i say low payroll, everyone jumps to conclusions and is assuming i'm wanting a yankee type 200+ million payroll, and i'm not.
I'm talking about 115-130.
2005-10-30 14:27:48
167.   sanchez101
Does it seem to anyone else a little odd that McCourt would fire Depodesta, but retain Kim Ng and Roy Smith, Smith was hired by Depo and Kim Ng seemed to be on his side as well. Also, didnt Depodesta and his front office just finish planning for the offseason last week?

What im wondering here is, how much of Depo's firing is a reflection of McCourts PR problem and how much is a reflection of McCourts view on his "plan" for the team. And on the subject of this mysterious "plan" or "direction" that the Depo and McCourt like talking about, what exactly is this plan? Ive never heard what this plan is supposed to be, just that everyone needs to stick to it and be on the same page; what is the plan?

I hope that depodesta was fired because McCourt felt that his public image was so bad that it inhibited his ability to be the GM, and that McCourt would feel more confident with a new face executing Depodesta's general philosophy and ideas. Maybe Kim Ng or Roy Smith or maybe even Logan White will take over and basically run the team in the same way, generally speaking, that Depo would have. Unfortuatly, I think McCourt believes all this crap about tradition. People seem to think that Pat Gillick or someone like him will take over, he's a slimy backhanded politico just like Lasorda, so it make sense. I dont remember when cronyism became part of the Dodger way.

However, I think that we should hold off predictions for the future untill at least McCourt names a new GM. I thinks its been proven by now that we shouldnt beleive anything that McCourt says publicly, so who knows what direction he's going in. Because we cant take anything he says seriously (could this be part of the PR problem?), we're going to have to let his actions speak for itself.

Here's to hoping that McCourt hires someone with an eye to the future, becuase we know there are many people looking to the past. If he doenst, Im not sure how im going to root for this team.

2005-10-30 14:30:35
168.   Mark
161 What was the White Sox payroll this year?
2005-10-30 14:35:18
169.   Linkmeister
148 Bob, for political cartoons there's Slate; for all the others there's Comics.com

http://www.comiczone.com/

2005-10-30 14:35:23
170.   Vishal
[166]

from USA Today, the top 10 payrolls in 2005:

1. New York Yankees $ 208,306,817
2. Boston Red Sox $ 123,505,125
3. New York Mets $ 101,305,821
4. Los Angeles Angels $ 97,725,322
5. Philadelphia Phillies $ 95,522,000
6. St. Louis Cardinals $ 92,106,833
7. San Francisco Giants $ 90,199,500
8. Seattle Mariners $ 87,754,334
9. Chicago Cubs $ 87,032,933
10. Atlanta Braves $ 86,457,302

(the dodgers were 11th at $ 83,039,000 )

that doesn't look like "plenty of teams" to me. in fact, only the red sox are in the $115-130 million range.

the bottom 11 teams are in the $30-56 million range, and the 8 in the middle are in the $60-77 million range

2005-10-30 14:35:55
171.   Vishal
[168]

white sox: $ 75,178,000

2005-10-30 14:38:45
172.   King of the Hobos
170 Those numbers are low, Angels had to pay the luxury tax didn't they? And I'm pretty sure that's above $97 mil. That may not include money payed to other teams, as Rangers are pretty high when fatoring in Arod's contract
2005-10-30 14:44:04
173.   Suffering Bruin
The McCourt gameplan, as I think it should be:

1. Hire a GM and manager who everyone can recognize. Gillick/Valentine certainly fit the bill. Hire Orel as assistant to somebody important.

2. The theme for '06 isn't championships, it's about improvement. And, oh yeah, have reporters plant the idea that this is all DePo's faults. Try to get this kind of message out: "It's only now that I see how misguided this direction truly was. I'm very happy to have Gillick/Valentine in the fold, happy to have Orel back where he belongs and I'm looking forward to an improved year. By 2007, we think this organization will be in very strong shape."

3. Emphasize that 2006 is about getting everyone better: the team, the organization, etc. That way, everyone can celebrate a ten-game improvement. Try to do what Phil Jackson did his first year with the Lakers.

4. Banish Hee-Seop Choi. Waive him. Let him be exhibit A of how wrong everything was because if he plays badly in '06, you look dumb and if he plays well in '06, DePo looks good and you can't have that, right?

5. Stay the hell out of the spotlight, limelight, any kind of damn light. Stay away from what Lasorda/Gillick/Valentine are doing.

6. Credit any and all improvement to the leadership you brought in and try to stay humble.

2005-10-30 14:44:19
174.   bigcpa
172 may not include money payed to other teams

It doesn't... the $10M to Green puts us at #6.

2005-10-30 14:44:59
175.   Vishal
[172] i believe that was for last season, when their payroll was slightly higher; and don't they get assessed after the season is over?

and from what i understand, luxury tax includes average annual values of contracts as well as benefits, which might not get counted the same way in regular payroll calculations.

2005-10-30 14:45:36
176.   Suffering Bruin
I realizse above post might not make much sense and some points might be repetitive. I'm still ticked off.

Heck with it. I'm going back to plan what I'm going to teach the kids this week. Maybe I'll do a lesson on how not to run an organization. The McCourts have done what I didn't was possible: they've made LAUSD look good by comparison.

2005-10-30 14:47:26
177.   werthgagne31
168
I'm not sure but i looked ay yahoo's teams salary database and it said 75 million, and also said the dodgers is 83 million, but i thought the dodgers was 90 something, so i don't know if yahoo is right or not.
Also i suspect the dodgers payroll to decrease in the future under mccourt.

But can you really say that the white sox were clearly the best team this year, i saw many bad calls by the umpires in favor of the white sox that made the game turn out to be wins for the white sox.

And thats another subject i'm frustrated with, bad umpiring.

2005-10-30 14:48:13
178.   ElysianPark62
Re: 166...plenty of teams with a payroll between $115-130 million? Name me them. It should take all of one second.
2005-10-30 14:49:10
179.   Mark
177 "But can you really say that the white sox were clearly the best team this year,"

"2005 World Series Champions" certainly makes a strong case, no? And with a sub-$80 million payroll and a non-moneyball team, to boot.

2005-10-30 14:49:57
180.   popup
A few things. Curtis I wish you and your neighbor the best. The bad times in sports are awfully meaningless compared to the tragedies of life.

#162, Freddy really irritated me and other Mariner fans in 2002 (right now I consider myself more of a Mariner fan than Dodger fan) with his deameanor on the mound. He would pout if someone made an error behind him or something went wrong. Seemed to me from obvserving him he would just start flipping the ball up to the plate. One time, not sure if it was 02, he clearly was showing up his catcher, Dan Wilson, out on the mound. I remember reading that his teammates were furious with him after that incident. The guy has a lot of talent, but if things aren't right in Freddy's world, he will bail out in a hurry. One of the best things I have ever seen on a baseball field was at the end of the year Pat Borders was brought up as a third catcher and was in the lineup for one of Freddy's starts. Before the first pitch of the game Freddy's was behind the mound walking around in what looked like a daze. Borders put himself on top of the mound and when Freddy turned around, Borders had his finger pointed a few inches from Freddy's face, obviously saying things that Jon won't let me post here. Funny thing is that Freddy actually pitched a good game that day if I remember correctly.

Regarding Tommy, if I was the new GM I would see to it that he had a real job and that he reported to me. There is no way the Dodgers can be rid of him, but I think it is possible to at least try to minimize the damamge.

Jon, the post is accurate for sure. Bob Timmermann could probably let you know that the front office intrigue was even more intense during the Rickey/O'Malley transition. I do think the O'Malley front office after he took control was better run than anything I have seen from the Foxes or McCourt. Walter did seem to hire good people and stay out of their way. I remember he ordered Wills to be traded, but other than that I don't rememeber him getting involved in the baseball side of things. There was some unpleasantness when
Buzzie left for San Diego but other than that there did not seem to be this endless infighting that has characterized Fox/McCourt.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 14:49:58
181.   trainwreck
I hope we do not take forever to hire a GM. Managerial search was too long for my liking.
2005-10-30 14:53:45
182.   King of the Hobos
181 I think it will be short. I'm fairly sure McCourt has someone in mind. He wouldn't have dumped DePo otherwise
2005-10-30 14:54:44
183.   werthgagne31
170
I believe those numbers are low.
And my point is that the dodgers payroll should be as high as any other team EXCEPT THE YANKEES.
I don't like this set payroll that mccourt has, if we need a little more money, then mccourt should spend it, and we should have a competitive payroll if there are players to get out there, instead of being handcuffed to a set payroll.
I don't believe in spending just to spend tho.
But i don't believe in "this is our payroll cap and its final"
2005-10-30 14:56:14
184.   Suffering Bruin
Curtis, I just read your post. I want to pass along my best wishes for you and your family. I think when someone says tragedy puts everything into perspective, what they mean is that what was taken for granted for so long quite suddenly and painfully becomes tenuous. At least, that's what I was thinking about a year ago this time.

I wish nothing but the best for you and yours. Take good care during this difficult time. For me, strength, perspective and wisdom were gained but the tuition was very rough.

Again, all the best...

2005-10-30 14:58:27
185.   Norm
159 "and kevin malone (trading the farm for quality players), but overall mediocre teams and mediocre results, 500 ball or below 500 ball.
GOODBYE FARM."

Could you elaborate? What prospects did he trade?

2005-10-30 15:06:04
186.   werthgagne31
Another point i'm trying to make is that we were in such a good position with depodesta.
We had a stacked farm and all we needed to do is retain bradley, get a good outfielder (giles) and 2 good starting pitchers and we would be set.
But with old fashioned gm and manager, an overhaul of the roster is immenent.
And thats my prediction of whats going to happen.
2005-10-30 15:08:14
187.   Bob Timmermann
O'Malley ordered the trade of Robinson, Singer, Valentine and Strahler to the Angels in 1973 for Messersmith and McMullen because O'Malley found out that those four had voted against going on strike in 1972 and he felt they would be a divisive influence on his team.

The irony of this all is that he ended up with Messersmith, who although he was great, also ended the reserve clause.

2005-10-30 15:08:27
188.   Uncle Miltie
152- I don't see Roberts coming back. He's too old.

What the new GM (Pat Gillick) will do.

1. Trade Edwin Jackson, Jonathon Broxton, and Tony Abreu for Juan Pierre.
"Pierre is a great leadoff hitter...he makes things happen"
2. Sign Royce Clayton.
"He's a great defender, an excellent bunter, and very good at hitting and running"
3. Sign Joe Randa
"Joe is a solid veteran leader and he's great in the community"
4. Trade/Non tender Milton Bradley
5. Trade Hee Seop Choi to the A's for Jay Payton
6. Sign Mike Piazza to play 1B
"We needed to bring Piazza back to where he belongs. He bleeds Dodger Blue"
7. Sign Jamie Moyer
"Jamie is a hard worker, a role model for the younger players, and a great person. He does a lot of work in the community"

1. Pierre CF
2. Clayton SS
3. Drew RF
4. Kent 2B
5. Piazza 1B
6. Randa 3B
7. Payton LF
8. Navarro C

Lowe
Penny
Perez
Moyer
Houlton

Awesome!

2005-10-30 15:16:57
189.   trainwreck
188-
lol I think that is pretty accurate.
2005-10-30 15:17:05
190.   gvette
Just got in from being away this weekend, and got a look at some of the comments here.

Some points;
1) Obviously this is a big story for Dodger fans, but out of town (outside of So. Cal.),it's getting very little national play, either on ESPN or in the newspapers;

2)Too bad for DePo, but he's young, smart, has a young family, an open invitation to go back to Oakland, and a few million of the McCourts' money coming his way. He may have gotten screwed in this particular situation, but he's not a martyr.

3)Could we have a moratorium on predictions of a Royals like future for this team? As of today the Dodgers have no GM, no manager, and only a limited idea as to who will be on the roster next year. If they don't know what's going to happen, how is anyone on this site able to predict the future?
When DePo got hired, people actually posted that members of the front office like Ng and White would quit in protest, and that Gagne would immediately be traded. Unless you have inside info, the rest is speculation.

4)That said, it's curious that while other teams embrace the future with young GMs (D-Backs, Texas) the Dodgers are going retro back to the 80's.

5) No matter what philosophy is installed, what GM is named, what field manager hired, the bottom line is that the Dodgers better improve their roster in a big way for '06.

2005-10-30 15:27:04
191.   Odysseus
179 I think you can make a much better case for the White Sox being the best team based on 99 regular season wins. Playoffs are small sample sizes, so the best team doesn't always win.

Fwiw, if I was making a case for the best team, I would say St. Louis and their 100 wins, 805 RS, 634 RA, compared to CWS 99 wins, 741 RS, 645 RA. I'm too lazy to convert those into Pythatorean, but it's obvious that St. Louis's would be better.

2005-10-30 15:33:12
192.   King of the Hobos
188 I believe you forgot to sign Neifi as backup for Clayton and Kent. He also gives us a veteran player when we trade Kent for Urbina and prospects
2005-10-30 15:34:33
193.   Vishal
[191] yeah, but the AL is a tougher league. i'd say they were probably about even, though st. louis probably had the better offense and the white sox probably had better pitching/defense.
2005-10-30 15:38:58
194.   Bob Timmermann
The oldest living Hall of Famer is no longer the oldest living Hall of Famer.

RIP Al Lopez.

Age 97.

2005-10-30 15:40:08
195.   Bob Timmermann
The current leader in the clubhouse for "oldest living Hall of Famer" is now Phil Rizzuto at age 88.
2005-10-30 15:41:48
196.   gvette
194--Did he make it to the Chi Sox parade a few days ago?
2005-10-30 15:43:44
197.   Thomas Naccarato
Curtis, all my best wishes and prayers to you and your family and your neighbors.

"Come my children, let us all drink the blue Koolaid....."

I'm disappointed that Depo isn't going to get a chance to fully build from with-in, but frankly, I just don't think this was ever going to happen. Not at least since the day "The Zelig" called up Frank McIdiot and told him that he should buy the LA Dodgers.

I just think when you put all of the pieces together, the fans of Los Angeles Dodger baseball will want a winner out there asap. We saw it with the Lakers last year--people stopped coming to the games--it had to have an affect on upper-management. So they bring back Phil Jackson--a person who guided the team to great success. While many don't think this is an answer for the Lakers--they all want to scream that they hate the Triangle, even though it's won like how many Championships is it?

But I think the main thing here is keeping people interested, and we aren't talking about +/-100 guys that post on Jon's Dodger Thoughts.

The point to all of this is that McCourt and his--ahem, cough-cough--"associates" have probably identified a much bigger problem--They aren't the only game in town anymore thanks to the Orange Circle Crystal Cathedral Angels of Santa Ana.

That to me is what is showing me the money here, as well as the vivid, in full living color choice of having the dynamic Terry Collins (Depo's choice) or Rob *WHO*tus as manager. Depo probably stood pat on this--incited McCourt, who clearly reacts because he is going to have to answer to all of his investors and bankers--even the ones he is courting (McCourting), as well as the mainstream media outlet most responsible for getting out all of the Dodger inside news, The LA Times, and it goes on and on and on ad infinitum.

Like him or not, Lasorda represents popularity. Some of you aren't going to like that fact, but this isn't about Moneyball or Geekball. It's about very familiar characters who have been part of, or have experienced great success in the Dodger organization that is going to reclaim team popularity. Trying to utilize (with all respects) small name talent in the war for city dominance against the Angels wasn't going to do it. Especially with a GM that wants it his way, and when the minute he claimed at the end of the season that the choice of manager was his and his only--to a couple of days later when McIdiot informed all that he was part of the entire choice of manager process. It was happening all right there in front of our eyes.

Excuses were made, suddenly DePodesta is an introvert in the office, shutting all doors and boarding up all the windows. Most hate him because in the Dodger front offices, your either a team player or your really out.

He's conviently goes on vacation in Italy for his sister's wedding. He knew then--HE HAD TO KNOW THEN--that the end was near. Simply because we haven't heard much other then the usual Dodger "We're looking for the right five guys-banter" since he got back have we?

The entire point to all of this is you can blame Lasorda, you can blame McCourt, but the thing that is most probably to blame is the success of the Angels, as well as the billiant move of Arte Moreno to ditch the Anaheim and reclaim the LA.

Right now they are LA's team. At least the most organized and well thought out. Maybe they need an Assistant GM to Bill Stoneman? :)

(Just joking!)

2005-10-30 15:45:57
198.   scareduck
182 - "I think [the search for a GM] will be short. I'm fairly sure McCourt has someone in mind. He wouldn't have dumped DePo otherwise."

The problem with this plan is that Theo Epstein signed a contract with the Red Sox.

2005-10-30 15:48:41
199.   Marty
Wow, It's a little rough going to my favorite site today since my employer is public enemy number one. It rarely bothers me but for some reason it does today.
2005-10-30 15:49:40
200.   scareduck
197 - Tommy, if winning were just about popularity, 1992 wouldn't have happened.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-30 15:49:55
201.   Jon Weisman
Curtis, my best wishes to you in the face of the horrible events.
2005-10-30 15:51:59
202.   Thomas Naccarato
Marty,
Like it or not, I read the Times everyday. Today's sports section is the size it should be everyday, in fact, I like TJ Simers (which is probably going to irk a lot of you)

The thing that is faulty at the LAT is the OWNER.

2005-10-30 15:53:30
203.   King of the Hobos
198 Is it official yet? I don't see it announced anywhere...
2005-10-30 15:54:00
204.   Thomas Naccarato
200You have to take the good with the bad. Some years it is going to get bad--to me the New York Yankees this year were bad, given all of that money spent on talent.
2005-10-30 15:56:17
205.   Vishal
[197] obviously lasorda et al. are popular. but i would rather have the popularity that is associated with long-term success than the short-term popularity of familiar faces and catchy names. wouldn't you? the happy buzz of hiring orel hershiser and bobby valentine will fade quickly if they don't know what they are doing.

and besides, most dodger fans (as are most people in general; this applies to most every population) are pretty dumb, and making front-office decisions based on popular will is a recipe for disaster. people still mourn for alex cora, for pete's sake.

2005-10-30 15:59:17
206.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry, Marty, your employer lost a subscriber today. And I have nicely printed out letters for Baquet and Dwyre to go mail.

Thomas? Thomas Naccarato? Thomas?

2005-10-30 16:03:35
207.   gvette
199--Marty, I may actually start reading Simers again now that he's going after Lasorda.

Besides, the fact that Times circulation is dropping like a rock probably has little to do with Plaschke and Simers.

2005-10-30 16:07:57
208.   Scanman33
My new blog born from yetserday's events:

http://firethemccourts.blogspot.com/

2005-10-30 16:07:59
209.   Thomas Naccarato
Vishal,
If you read the opening paragraph, I tried to make it clear what my thoughts were. I admit fully I was for them hiring DePo and getting rid of Evans. The fact is that I didn't relaize at the time--mostly from ignorance and my old stubborn ways that Evan's wasn't a bad guy after all. A very solid guy to have running the operations of the team.

But as Depo built up the farm, it revitalized a n old thinking I had in the early to mid 80's, that we should be concentrating on young talent as we had in the early 70's wih Lopes, Cey, Garvburger & Russell.

I felt that eventually it was going to happen but it was going to take more time and frankly in this modern day world of championships and multi-million populus' I just don't think it is possible for that to happen. Maybe in Oakland where 18,000 screaming faithful cheer on a list of no name talent that they can't relate to.

2005-10-30 16:08:15
210.   Bob Timmermann
194
I don't believe Al Lopez went to the White Sox parade. He wasn't in the best of health. The AP obituary said he died of a heart attack, but when you're 97, I think you pretty much just die of being 97.

Al Lopez was born about seven weeks before the Cubs won their last World Series.

2005-10-30 16:08:19
211.   MikeB
190.
"Could we have a moratorium on predictions of a Royals like future for this team?"

OK. They're going to look like Tampa Bay.

2005-10-30 16:09:21
212.   Bob Timmermann
It would be better if we thought the Dodgers would resemble Pittsburgh in the future.

Better as in funnier.

2005-10-30 16:11:39
213.   MikeB
212. Touche'
2005-10-30 16:12:00
214.   Thomas Naccarato
Bob,
I thought I was going to try to get that one by you! Silly me!

Actually, my 12 Step sponsor told me that I need to grow-up in terms of how I view myself. I couldn't agree more!

So, I'm taking the next step forward and like the Angels, returning to the original Tom or Thomas.

(But all my friends can still call me Tommy.)

2005-10-30 16:15:34
215.   Thomas Naccarato
Sort of like when J.A. Adande calls himself the ultra cool, "J" when his name is actually Josh!

Hopefully he remains ultra-cool and doesn't become compulsive or dependant in his lifetime, where he has to start calling himself Joshua. I don't think that would go over well with the Laker players he likes to trip with.

2005-10-30 16:15:46
216.   Bob Timmermann
With the current esteem that Tommy Lasorda is held in, I think I would stick with Thomas in this forum.

I better not need to go through a 12-step sponsor because I don't like being called Robert.

2005-10-30 16:16:53
217.   Bob Timmermann
215
Or how J.A. Adande is supposed to be the "hip" L.A. Times sports columnist in reality he is really quite nerdy and went to Northwestern.

He's not exactly Stephen A. Smith in personality.

2005-10-30 16:18:03
218.   Thomas Naccarato
Bobby!

I wonder if there is a 12 Step program for Prius owners yet?:)

2005-10-30 16:19:03
219.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
The more I think about it, the more depressing all this seems. In my view, the best I can do is hope for the best, and when I get too glum, be reminded by Curtis' story that baseball really isn't all that important.

WWSH

2005-10-30 16:19:39
220.   Bob Timmermann
Each one of the 12 steps for a Prius owner helps builds up the owner's exaggerated sense of moral superiority.

Right now, I'm at Step 8, Santa Monica resident.

The ultimate is Step 12, Berkeley resident.

2005-10-30 16:19:59
221.   Thomas Naccarato
It's all about hanging with the Homies and also, being an alum of Crossroads. You can't get any more cool then that!
2005-10-30 16:21:18
222.   Thomas Naccarato
Glad to hear you have made it past that stage of surrender. Step One can be the hardest of all!
2005-10-30 16:21:53
223.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 215

Maybe Adande is a Brit? They use their initials as authors as a matter of course and custom (e.g. J. K. Rowling, J. R. R. Tolkien, and C. S. Lewis).

Adande isn't trying to be cool; he's just acting like a proper English author.

WWSH

2005-10-30 16:23:37
224.   D4P
Let the anti-McCourt blogs begin.

http://firethemccourts.blogspot.com/

2005-10-30 16:23:50
225.   Thomas Naccarato
Wayne,
Sounds to me as if you need LA Dodgers Anonymous. May I suggest a cup of blue Koolaid instead?
2005-10-30 16:24:54
226.   Thomas Naccarato
Wayne, His name is Josh Adande and he's from Santa Monica.
2005-10-30 16:28:11
227.   Bob Timmermann
I'm amazed that Adande went to Crossroads and is not either a concert musician or a disaffected rich kid bouncing from job to job and getting arrested.
2005-10-30 16:29:13
228.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 226

I was being more than a bit tongue-in-cheek. =)

WWSH

2005-10-30 16:39:44
229.   Bob Timmermann
News: Earth is round
Dog bites man
Dodgers to interview Gillick
http://tinyurl.com/9qtzv
2005-10-30 16:51:33
231.   bokonon42
Great thread. Show me a paper where, in the same day, Tommy Lasorda gets compared to Sean Hannity and Augusto Pinochet (both funny, but I've got to go with Steve on this; Tommy is Hannity, no question), and I'll subscribe to it. As long as it isn't free on the net. I started reading the L.A. Times when I was in grade school, but I haven't touched a paper-newspaper in probably five years. Read it for free on the internet, and save yourself the trouble of washing your hands, after.

Bob, let us know when they actually stop delivering it. Mickey Kaus has a running storyline about how desperate they are to keep subscribers on the books; it sounds like you can quit paying, but keep getting the paper every day.

2005-10-30 16:56:34
232.   Eric L
231 I told my chick that the next time the LA Times calls and tries to get her to subscribe (I know it's just a telemarketing firm) to tell them that she refuses to until they fire Plaschke and Simers. She doesn't understand what I'm getting at, but I hope she remembers to tell them.

Or I told her to just ask them (hyperbole alert!) why the Press-Enterprise has a better sports section that the LA Times.

She thinks I'm crazy.. I wonder why?

2005-10-30 16:58:36
233.   Steve
Tommy is clearly Hannity; neither know a thing about what they are talking about; both are cheerleaders for their cause; both might as well be selling bacon or batteries or cheese.
2005-10-30 17:02:48
234.   Steve
And I'm sorry that I referred to him as Tommy. Please refer to all baseball-related people by their last name, lest this site and other get tagged as another "stat-geek" site. At Dodgers.com and the Wall Street Journal, they take this convention one step further, referring to people by the proper "Mr. McCourt," "Ms. Ng," "Mr. Hershiser," "Mr. DePodesta," "Mr. LoDuca" et. seq. Such conventions will stall further problems. Thank you, fellow DT posters, for following these conventions in the future.
2005-10-30 17:03:36
235.   bokonon42
Mmmmmmmm, bacon and batteries and cheese, [gurgling noise]
2005-10-30 17:03:59
236.   King of the Hobos
Does anyone think Gillick won't get the job? At this point, it seems only Philly and (maybe) Boston have the ability to prevent the Dodgers hiring him. I'm not sure how to view this
2005-10-30 17:05:13
237.   Odysseus
Saw this on Primer

http://tinyurl.com/bxavt

Looks bad

The Los Angeles Dodgers could be in for a really tough time, because it appears that neither Frank or Jamie McCourt, MLB, or the News Corp, who have loaned much of the money used to buy their own ball club, have learned any lessons from the past.

Recently, two top-ranking Dodger officials resigned from their posts, allegedly after reviewing the McCourt financial plan for the Dodgers, which, due to their massive debt load, leaves no room for error. In order to meet the financial needs of the club, everything must go perfectly according to plan. As we all know, in baseball, this is nearly impossible.

For me, this revelation is "déjà vu all over again."

I moved to Baltimore in 1988 as a manager for Opryland, USA, whose entertainment management arm had been engaged to run a new nightclub/restaurant venue just off Baltimore's Inner Harbor, to be called "Baltimore's Fishmarket" (the large building that housed the complex was once the city's public fish market). The owner of said project was none other than then boy-wonder parking lot and condo maven, one Frank McCourt from Boston.

Go there for the exciting conclusion (depressing may be the better word)

2005-10-30 17:05:48
238.   Bob Timmermann
Time to go drop off my letters for Baquet and Dwyre.

There is no emoticon that can show my sense of outrage!

2005-10-30 17:08:00
239.   Steve
That's Mr. Gillick.
2005-10-30 17:09:12
240.   Odysseus
236 I saw on Rotoworld that the Dodgers had to ask Seattle for permission, he's a special consultant or some other equally vague title
2005-10-30 17:11:06
241.   Bob Timmermann
Beware, Lasorda, he has the lean and hungry look.

Ok, maybe not lean.

2005-10-30 17:11:59
242.   Steve
The Management Of Baseball piece linked to above is good, by the way.
2005-10-30 17:16:37
243.   Eric L
241 He is a bit leaner than the '88 version of Lasorda...

Should I have said "version" or this that computer like?

2005-10-30 17:17:37
244.   Javier Gutierrez
If Pat Gillick becomes the GM, will we go to a pitching, speed, and fundamental execution type of philosophy?
2005-10-30 17:18:02
245.   Steve
243 -- Let's send an e-mail to Jerry and see what he thinks.
2005-10-30 17:18:34
246.   gvette
237--Seem to recall that the story about the McCourts' inept attempt to launch a restaurant first surfaced when they bought the club.
2005-10-30 17:21:05
247.   bokonon42
241- Yeah, Lasorda really sticks it to that play. The whole, 'let me have men about me that are fat,' angle is no good, either. 'Bill' Shakespeare must not ever have met Tommy.
2005-10-30 17:23:21
248.   Steve
247 -- Is it the bacon, batteries, or cheese that does it?
2005-10-30 17:24:25
249.   King of the Hobos
Our former GM is a special assistant to the GM for Seattle. Our new one could be a special consultant to the GM for Seattle. As best I can tell, it's the same position with different names
2005-10-30 17:27:59
250.   King of the Hobos
Hershiser is a "free agent" on Nov 1st, so he can be anything the Dodgers want him to be
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-10-30 17:29:50
251.   Uncle Miltie
244- see my post (188). That's how the team would most likely be constructed if Gillick is hired.
2005-10-30 17:33:32
252.   Suffering Bruin
227 This Crossroads Alum (1981) is currently ROFLMAO!

That was very funny and right on the button. I only went there one year, was far from rich but your description matches a lot of other people I knew back in the day...

2005-10-30 17:36:50
253.   Vishal
[252] 2 members of my favorite band ever went to crossroads.
2005-10-30 17:36:58
254.   DaveP
McCourt, with his bumbling through two years of Dodger ownership, is the Harriet Myers of baseball. No strong support from either side of the aisle now that even the pro-depo types are fed up with the direction of the team.
2005-10-30 17:38:30
255.   Steve
Hey SB, how's things?

Jim Tracy was Harriet Miers.

2005-10-30 17:40:07
256.   Steve
No I take that back, Tracy actually got the gig for awhile. Maybe Alan Trammell is Harriet Miers.
2005-10-30 17:41:23
257.   Vishal
i'd say that depodesta = colin powell, but he wasn't popular enough for that analogy to work.
2005-10-30 17:43:30
258.   Steve
DePodesta = Lee Atwater struck down before his time.
2005-10-30 17:44:23
259.   Steve
Democrats, feel free to create your own analogies for your side of the aisle by the way.
2005-10-30 17:44:32
260.   DaveP
255 - Tracy had hard core supporters who hated McCourt and Depo, regardless of what Tracy might do. McCourt has very little support from "traditionalists" or "saber" types, at this point. He's managed to alienate everyone with his lack of clear direction and finds himself in no-man's land. If only he could be forced to withdraw (sell) from the team.
2005-10-30 17:49:37
261.   Uncle Miltie
Frank McCourt= John Kerry
Lasorda= Tipper Gore/Hillary Clinton

By the way, I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat

2005-10-30 17:51:45
262.   Vishal
[258] oh man, but lee atwater was a scumbag. i picked powell because he was a good man, as well as intelligent and capable, but ultimately he was ineffectual and outmaneuvered by others within the administration.
2005-10-30 17:54:25
263.   overkill94
Is there a way to view all the transactions Gillick completed during his tenures at GM? At least an unbiased summary would work, but I guess that might be hard to come by.
2005-10-30 17:54:40
264.   Uncle Miltie
257- I was thinking the same thing. You could also compare Powell to Dan Evans
2005-10-30 17:54:44
265.   Steve
I would indeed start with Kerry/McCourt, but you would need him to hire Jim Bowden to get your Bob Shrum.
2005-10-30 17:58:55
266.   scareduck
237 - old news, though if it turns out McCourtCo can't keep the doors open past 2006 it could easily be a good thing. Or if MLB buys out the team a la the Expos, maybe not.
2005-10-30 18:00:05
267.   King of the Hobos
263 You could look at the Mariner's tranactions during his tenure, although that's all that I know of

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/transactions/index.jsp?c_id=sea&year=2001

He's already outrighted Grabowski to AAA, let's hopehe can do it again

2005-10-30 18:01:07
268.   bokonon42
Baseball reference has transaction listings for each team, by year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/

2005-10-30 18:06:13
269.   Gen3Blue
Wow--- I was in some ways shocked to see Depotesta gone!!
Its good to see this crippled clown act gone. I don't know if either one is more to blame, but the result is easy to cheer. This combination was a Dodger killer of prime effectiveness.

Time to move on, and I really hope to get some people who care more for the D's than there own ego's.

I certainly hope McCourt won't turn out to be part of the problem, but a few more years will show.

The D's aren't used to being down for more than a decade lately.

2005-10-30 18:12:36
270.   Vishal
[269] i don't see how the clown act was crippled anymore. once tracy was gone, i'd say it promised to be a very ambulatory clown act.

Time to move on, and I really hope to get some people who care more for the D's than there own ego's.

but yes, thank goodness mild-mannered paul depodesta and his GIGANTIC ego have been shipped out, so all we have left are the extremely humble and self-effacing frank mccourt and tommy lasorda around to right the ship.

2005-10-30 18:16:31
271.   bokonon42
On this day in Pat Gillick History, 1997, our hero granted Scott Kamieniecki, Jerome Walton, and Lenny Webster free agency.
2005-10-30 18:20:07
272.   Steve
I kinda thought the poster was talking about Tracy there.
2005-10-30 18:20:09
273.   overkill94
I've mostly just read everyone else's comments the last two days, but I'd like to offer my semi-original manifesto that I posted on my fantasy baseball board:

What's so frustrating about the whole thing is that DePodesta wasn't building a team to win right away, but no one has the patience to allow that to happen whether it be the media, the fans, or the owner. Sure he wanted to be competitive in the meantime, as shown by signing an aging but still productive Kent, but the bottom line was to keep a core nucleus of farm talent to become cornerstones of the franchise at low cost in the next couple years augmented by signing free agents at positions where the farm is weak (Drew was necessary since the Dodgers have little OF talent in the minors).

If I hear one more person say how DePodesta neglected the chemistry aspect in regards to evaluating players, I might just shoot myself. Look at the White Sox - Pierzynski, Everett, and Jenks have all dealt with character issues in the past, but all you hear about is what great chemistry they had. You know why? Because they won 99 games and had a manager who didn't baby his players. You think Kent would have called out Bradley if the Dodgers had a comfortable division lead? Of course not. Kent's not used to being on such a bad team so this had to be a very trying year for him. I'm surprised he finished with stats as good as he had.

I'm afraid of what the next GM might do to the team, but I'm not panicking yet. I won't be up in arms if a few of the top prospects are dealt, but only if it nets someone who will be productive for more than a year or two. I've never been a diehard Moneyball guy, but I was excited about what DePo was building and am saddened that he was not allowed to fulfill his vision. If the next GM and manager have a more traditional philosophy, that's fine with me as long as the best players are playing and the right personnel moves take place. If I have to deal with another Kevin Malone Experience it's gonna be tough to be a fan. With a lot of the albatross contracts finally off the books the new GM has a pretty empty canvas to work with, let's just hope he doesn't paint something you'd see in a pre-school classroom.

2005-10-30 18:42:41
274.   Bob Timmermann
I hope I didn't offend any of the Crossroads grads here, but my college roommate and friend to this day was a Crossroads alum and now his son is going there.
2005-10-30 19:04:34
275.   Vishal
i just peeked over at the dodgers.com boards. i wish i hadn't.

among other things (such as a general sense of glee at the latest news), there was sincere, effusive praise for the talents of one bill plaschke.

it's like there are two parallel universes. how can we be fans of the same team??

2005-10-30 19:10:31
276.   Bob Timmermann
Vishal,

The other parallel universe has a lot more people in it too.

2005-10-30 19:16:56
277.   Bob Timmermann
Michael Ventre's MSNBC column on l'Affaire

http://tinyurl.com/9l45a

2005-10-30 19:25:59
278.   NBarnes
With McCourt on record as having no patience with losing seasons and Depo's approach specifically discredited, I fully expect a fire sale of the Dodgers' best prospects in favor of 'proven veterans' with 'winning character'. Expect Tony Womack and Darin Erstad's imminent arrival, via trade of some pitching prospects.
2005-10-30 19:26:38
279.   Bob Timmermann
Tonight's trivia question:

Which major leaguer was a teammate of both Orel Hershiser and Bobby Valentine?

That's Valentine as a player, not a manager since Herhsiser played under Valentine in New York.

2005-10-30 19:27:17
280.   overkill94
There's a reason I moved from the dodgers.com message board to here, the idiot to intelligent factor over there is like 20 to 1, at least it was when I used to post.
2005-10-30 19:40:58
281.   dan reines
279-good trivia question! i got the answer, but i snooped around at baseballreference.com before getting it, so that's kinda sorta cheating. i won't reveal the answer just yet.
2005-10-30 19:44:09
282.   Uncle Miltie
The grandmother- one of my least favorite announcers
2005-10-30 19:44:48
283.   King of the Hobos
280 I go there from time to time when bored, the ratio has at least doubled
2005-10-30 19:50:08
284.   Bob Timmermann
There are actually five players who were teammates of both Valentine and Hershiser.

Two of them are in the Hall of Fame.

2005-10-30 19:50:23
285.   coachbean
279 this a guess (but I think a decent one) I believe Bill Russell played with both Orel and Bobby V...
2005-10-30 19:51:30
286.   Bob Timmermann
Oops, 8 players.
2005-10-30 19:51:51
287.   Bob Timmermann
Bill Russell is one.
2005-10-30 19:55:54
288.   Vishal
[276] maybe we're the ones who are in parallel.
2005-10-30 20:00:01
289.   scareduck
277 - My wife worked with Ventre once. Nice guy, but his opinions on the Dodgers are nearly as bad as Plaschke's, and every bit as forgettable.
2005-10-30 20:00:59
290.   coachbean
Bill Russell was an actual guess, I found two more looking at Valentine's late career... One I might have guess based on age: Rick Honeycutt... the other I absolutely never would have guessed: Alex Trevino
2005-10-30 20:01:00
291.   popup
Bob, just a guess, Steve Yeager?

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:02:27
292.   Telemachos
Just read the MSNBC article. Why on earth do people continue to prop up the tired (and false) argument that Depo expected Hee-Seop Choi to become a "star first baseman"?

Sigh.

On the positive front, not only did the Niners win today (!) but in doing so they helped me win my office pool. :)

2005-10-30 20:02:34
293.   popup
Bob, just a guess, Steve Yeager?

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:02:46
294.   Uncle Miltie
The one I was talking about was Don Sutton
2005-10-30 20:03:35
295.   Bob Timmermann
The two Hall of Famers are hard to think of. Especially since one of them doesn't have a Dodger connection to either Hershiser or Valentine.
2005-10-30 20:05:09
296.   Bob Timmermann
Sutton is correct. As is Yeager.

So we have Sutton, Yeager, Russell, Honeycutt, Trevino.

The other three are an HOF outfielder, a scrub outfielder, and a reliever.

2005-10-30 20:07:09
297.   Uncle Miltie
Eddie Murray?
2005-10-30 20:07:51
298.   Bob Timmermann
Murray never played with Valentine.
2005-10-30 20:09:09
299.   Uncle Miltie
Dave Winfield?
2005-10-30 20:09:18
300.   Bob Timmermann
One of the players played part of one season for the Dodgers and had a grand total of one hit.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-10-30 20:09:32
301.   Bob Timmermann
Dave Winfield is correct!
2005-10-30 20:10:33
302.   Uncle Miltie
I was going to say I give up if that wasn't the right answer
2005-10-30 20:20:47
303.   Jon Weisman
Good post on The Juice (and I don't mean O.J.)

http://thejuice.baseballtoaster.com/archives/282895.html

2005-10-30 20:22:05
304.   popup
Bob, did Winfield play for the Indians? I know he was on the roster but if I remember correctly he was added to the roster right around the time of the 94 strike and never actually played for them.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:23:25
305.   popup
Is Jesse Orosco the relief pitcher?

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:23:43
306.   Bob Timmermann
Winfield got into 46 games for the Indians in 1995.
2005-10-30 20:24:33
307.   Bob Timmermann
Surprisingly, Jesse Orosco is not the pitcher.
2005-10-30 20:30:09
308.   RobG
Just playing 6 degrees of seperation but if Gillick does become your GM, do you think he gets to pick his own manager? And if so, is Lou Piniella on the short list? He was Gillick's manager for most of his Seattle reign, right?

Or is it going to be the resurrection of Cito Gaston?

Just a thought....

2005-10-30 20:39:29
309.   popup
#308, Gillick and Lou are not particularly close. Maybe I should do a post on Gillick since I was on hand when he was the GM in Seattle. Long and short, he is a good soldier. LaSorda will pick the manager in my opinion.

Stan in Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:40:20
310.   Bob Timmermann
For the morbidly curious, the other two players were Mike Vail and Pat Zachry.
2005-10-30 20:41:27
311.   popup
I was going to guess Mitch Webster but I think he had more than one hit as a Dodger. Not many more though.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:47:30
312.   Uncle Miltie
Gillick and Bobby V will both be picked by Lasorda
2005-10-30 20:48:16
313.   popup
By the way, someone indicated that Gillick is on the Mariner payroll. Not so. He was a consulatant but that ended long ago. Good move in my opinion; if I was Bavasi I would not want the preceeding GM to be in the organization. Too much chance for the same thing that is going on with the Dodgers right now.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 20:51:10
314.   King of the Hobos
313 The Mariners site has his name as special consultant. And numerous articles have said McCourt asked Seattle for permission to speak to him
2005-10-30 20:58:27
315.   popup
King, if so then what I read years ago is wrong. Last I heard he went to try to help the Mariners evaluate or sign Contraras and that was his last association with the club.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 21:08:39
316.   King of the Hobos
Baseball could replace DePo's spot as young stats GM soon. Gillick could also have more competition for the Phillies job. They're interviewing Cleveland assistant GM Chris Antonetti tomorrow. Phillies owner David Montgomery has someinteresting views:

"We're evaluating candidates in a different environment than eight years ago," Montgomery said. "Does that mean experience counts? It could, but it could also mean we need a new approach or way to achieve our goal, and let's do it soon."

"I don't think of two extremes like people say," Montgomery said. "People ask if so-and-so is a 'Moneyball' person or not. If you're young, you're more into statistics, and if you're older, you're more into the feel. I think it's a hybrid of those situations. I don't think the needle should point one way or another. I think shame on you in this day and age if you don't use statistics to evaluate, but shame on you too if you don't try to get to know everything about a person before you sign him, trade for him or whatever."

2005-10-30 21:16:47
317.   das411
Hobos, am I correct in translating that as "We are going to hire Ruben Amaro"?
2005-10-30 21:17:17
318.   Xeifrank
Pinch me!!! It's all been a bad dream, hasn't it!? Tap your heels together 3 times and repeat after me, "there's no place like home, there's no place like home". vr, Xei
2005-10-30 21:17:42
319.   fanerman
Back to DePo (and I have never called him Paul)...

Does anybody have any idea how much Kim Ng, Roy Smith, Logan White and other members of the Dodger "braintrust" approved of DePo and his ideas? A few posters have suggested that DePo did not even have an internal support mechanism within the Dodgers. Obviously he did not have the support of the public, and if he did not have the support of the rest of the organization, he was relying soley on the backing of the finicky owner. It appears clear that (some combination of) the McCourts and Lasorda did not and this is what led to his firing. But I wonder who was in DePo's corner. Did Ng, Smith, and White disapprove or approve of the firing? If they disapproved, would they even want to stay with the Dodgers?

It's one thing (and it's possible) for his firing to be the act of just (some combination of) the McCourts and Lasorda. The rest of the front office could be, if not completely against the firing, at least not in favor of it. But if DePo did not have the support of the rest of the front office, then it's possible the rest of the front office did not buy into his vision. And if that's true, that is certainly a failure of management on DePo's part.

I wish I knew more of what happened--how much ear-whispering Lasorda did, the events surrounding the infamous Hershiser meeting, when the McCourts made up their mind, how reclusive DePo really was, the opinions of the rest of the front office, etc. The evidence that is available suggets that this mostly is the act of (some combination of) the McCourts and Lasorda, but I wonder much of it really is.

2005-10-30 21:18:25
320.   dzzrtRatt
I was listening to Ken Rosenthal on some sports talk show while picking up my son from another social engagement.

He pointed out something that McCourt might be smart to remember. Baseball GMs work long hours, 11 1/2 months per year. It's a high stress job. This might be as much of a reason for all the youthful hires as their statheadedness.

He should make Gillick or whatever Tommy-approved geezer is coming over the transom take a physical.

2005-10-30 21:20:49
321.   popup
I stand corrected. Just did a google search and Gillick is listed a special consultant for the Mariners. I follow the Mariners and I can say he is not much in the foreground. I don't think he wants to step on Bavasi's toes.

By the way, the Montgomery quote is great. Pretty much sums up what I think should be the way to approach running a team. And Jon, thanks for the link to Will Carroll. That is an excellent post.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 21:24:49
322.   King of the Hobos
319 DePo hired Smith, which means Smith probably approved of the ideas. He and DePo could trump Ng 2 to 1. =)
2005-10-30 21:29:30
323.   Jon Weisman
319 - I made this comment on Baseball Primer earlier:

There seems to be an implication among some of you that because DePo lost/never had the support of McCourt/Lasorda (and Tracy), he had no friends or support in the organization. I personally doubt that it's true, but at a minimum it's an odd conclusion to leap to considering how divided the organization is right now and how many people McCourt fired. It's much more logical to assume that DePo had many friends in the organization - but, in the end, lost the most important one.

DePo does not have Lasorda's outsized personality, but however reserved or reclusive DePo has been accused of being, he is by almost all accounts a nice guy. The idea that he somehow was friendless doesn't stand to reason.

2005-10-30 21:39:17
324.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Curtis, I'm truly sorry for your tragedy. I hope you and family come through OK.
2005-10-30 21:44:19
325.   NPB
I may be coming into the conversation far too late, but I have some things I wanted to say about the Dodgers, and this is the best place to say them. I see this whole situation as a tragedy. Admittedly, it's a baseball tragedy, which makes it small-scale in the collective mind of the world, but that doesn't keep any of us who love the Dodgers from feeling it deeply.

The DePodesta firing is the rock-bottom (we hope) of a long, sad fall from grace that began in 1994. Everyone is to blame. McCourt is a pretentious, incompetent, insecure mediocrity, Jamie McCourt is an overbearing control freak, Jim Tracy is a competent if flawed manager who allowed jealously to magnify his flaws, Lasorda is a blithering fool 15 years past the end of his prime, and DePodesta is a brilliant but arrogant young man who got in way over his head. There are other players--Plaschke, Simers, Bradley--who played more minor roles, but are equally flawed.

This is one of the most toxic downturns of a sports franchise that I can remember. It makes me sad beyond measure that the Dodgers are making these kinds of headlines.

That said, I'm moving to L.A. in six weeks, for the first time ever, and I will be in the stands for the home opener. Hope springs eternal, even when there's so little of it to go around.

2005-10-30 21:44:42
326.   fanerman
Has anybody else lost the will to do what they were supposed to do this weekend (homework, for me)? I'm too emotionally invested in the Dodgers, I know, but I only allowed myself to be because of the work of DePo and Evans. Anyway, now I'm not so sure how much I'm willing to invest in the Dodgers while they are still owned by the McCourts.
2005-10-30 21:51:19
327.   King of the Hobos
326 Sure, I need an excuse as to why I didn't do some stuff. I think the desire not to do it played a bigger role than firing DePo though.
2005-10-30 21:56:06
328.   Xeifrank
325. DePodesta is arrogant? In what way? Some examples please.

326. Washed and vacuumed both cars, did yard work, visited a pumpkin patch, took my daughter to the neighbors to play, then went to a church Halloween function for kids. It's my daughters first Halloween, and she looks so cute in her little cow costume. I didn't let the firing get in the way of anything, but that doesn't mean I am not pissed about it. One step forward, 15 steps back. vr, Xei

2005-10-30 22:05:41
329.   popup
I remember towards the end of this year listening to the first three innings of a Dodger game (those are the only innings I would listen to by the end of the season) on XM radio and Vin had DePo join him in the booth. I was very impressed with DePo (and Vin too, but it is no news for me to praise Vin). Very resonable fellow who answered the questions Vin asked. DePo seemed fully at ease. I don't style myself as a stathead, but DePo did not sound like some sort of deranged computer nerd to me.

I consider myself someone who cares about Dodger tradition. That tradition for me goes deeper than Lasorda and bleeding Dodger blue. When I was younger there were real tears in 1962 and great joy a year later. The tradition was not always pretty. I remember Steve Howe and Maury being banished. The Campanis interview was awful to watch and hear. I tired of the LaSorda sideshow pretty quickly and wished for a manager more like Walt Alston (not that I wanted LaSorda fired, firing managers was something other teams did.) Strawberry was signed and for the first time I had a conflict of actually disliking a player wearing the Dodger uniform. The Fox years were awful and after the Piazza trade and the Brown signing I became much less of a Dodger fan. Dan Evans took over from Malone and I sensed that someone reasonable was in charge and dared to be what I have been for most of my adult life-- a Dodger fan. Now this. I guess this will pass, but what if McCourt is in this for the long haul? I don't know.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-30 22:33:04
330.   dan reines
"There seems to be an implication among some of you that because DePo lost/never had the support of McCourt/Lasorda (and Tracy), he had no friends or support in the organization."

Jon, I'm not sure if I'm one of the "some of you" implicated in this post, but I suspect I might be. In any case, I'd like to clarify: I don't know whether DePodesta had friends or support in the organization. By all accounts, he seems to be a very good guy, and my experience is that people quite like good guys who are also smart guys. So I agree with you that it's logical to assume that he had plenty of friends in the organization.

That, however, was entirely beside the point I was trying to make in my comments above. My point was simply that, we fans tend to judge a GM based on his roster moves, and those fans who generally liked DePodesta's roster moves (and I count myself among that group) are angry at this firing because of that.

It's easy, though, to overlook the fact that being the general manager of a major league baseball team entails more than just roster moves -- it entails management. Of people. And if DePodesta had trouble with the management part, then that would have handcuffed him in his efforts to keep everyone focused on long-term goals.

Now, I don't know if DePodesta had widespread problems managing people. I do know that his most high-profile employee spent this entire year in a passive-aggressive state of defiance against DePodesta's authority, and for whatever reason, DePodesta was never able to rein him in (until, of course, he fired him).

I also know that there were way too many stories floating around about his failure to call departing players, etc. I have no idea if these stories are true, or relevant, or what. But certainly DePodesta has a reputation for not going out of his way to explain himself, either to his friends or his critics. Some of us don't mind that. But if it's true, it almost certainly didn't help his already tenuous situation as a young, Ivy-educated, first-time GM trying to buck baseball tradition.

That's what I meant when I said he didn't do himself any favors. DePodesta already had the deck stacked against him. He was in a position where his ability to manage (and persuade, and inspire, and soothe) the people around, below, and above him was crucial, and what little evidence we have to go on suggests that he wasn't great at this.

2005-10-30 22:35:48
331.   dan reines
and another thing: sorry for the length of that post...
2005-10-30 22:51:17
332.   sanchez101
What are the chances that should Epstien and the sox fail to reach an agreement, that Theo Epstien ends up with the Dodgers?
Its a long shot, obviously; why would Theo want to work for the McCourts, why would anyone? But, it is probably the best possible outcome.
2005-10-30 22:51:53
333.   jasonungar05
Hey Dan

I pretty much hear what your saying. Which is why I am so sad. The way the McCourts have managed people makes me wish there was someone that can fire them.

The worst part of all this is while other teams are planning on how they will be getting to the 2006 WS we will be wondering who our GM will be and then our manager. It's a perfect excuse already not to win next year and to not spend money

2005-10-30 23:05:59
334.   Telemachos
Bill Shaikin's article in the Times:
http://tinyurl.com/8xjac

Glad to see you and DT quoted there, Jon!

2005-10-30 23:06:25
335.   Uncle Miltie
http://tinyurl.com/daljz
Vote on the LA Times poll
Do you agree with Frank McCourt's decision to fire General Manager Paul DePodesta?
No!
2005-10-30 23:07:45
336.   Bob Timmermann
Jon is quoted in this Bill Shaikin story:

http://tinyurl.com/bbx3o

2005-10-30 23:16:49
337.   Bob Timmermann
Triple simulpost!

I think you had to pay extra for that during the Barcelona Olympics.

2005-10-30 23:17:32
338.   Joe
If Valentine is hired, say hello to your new catcher:

Softbank Hawks catcher Kenji Jojima announced in a press conference Monday he will try to pursue a career in MLB. (from RotoWorld)

2005-10-30 23:17:33
339.   dzzrtRatt
Well, at least Bill Shaikin fingers the right guy in tomorrow's LA Times. DePodesta Hate Week lasted only one day; the Times has woken up to the fact that McCourt is scary bad.

http://tinyurl.com/b6elt

He also quotes Jon Weisman--a brutal quote comparing McCourt's regime to the Royals. Bravo!

2005-10-30 23:18:26
340.   dzzrtRatt
Oh drat, sorry to make a quadrophonic echo.
2005-10-30 23:24:00
341.   Rich Lederer
Congrats, Jon.
2005-10-30 23:25:08
342.   Rich Lederer
Bob, I thought you canceled the Times? :-)
2005-10-30 23:33:41
343.   Bob Timmermann
You're darn right I did.

I bet it will still come tomorrow.

And for several weeks to come.

2005-10-30 23:36:24
344.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Henson's story though leads one to believe that Gillick isn't an option and that Bowden is still in the mix.

That will make me sleep easy.

2005-10-30 23:45:24
345.   Blaine
I've heard the tongue in cheek comparisons to the Royals, Rays and Pirates, but the one that keeps coming to mind in the SF 49ers. They represented stability throughout the 80s and 90s and have become a laughingstock in recent years, due primarily to an owner who has blown up the franchise.

The Dodgers were a solid franchise (although I don't think their success was equal to the 49ers) which was respected around the league. They are close to becoming what the 49ers have become.

There is no future in SF for the 49ers right now. Unless there is a drastic change and the McCourts lay this "foundation" that they are talking about, the Dodgers are heading the same direction as the Niners. So maybe the Royals and D-Rays comparisons aren't so far off

2005-10-30 23:50:43
346.   trainwreck
344-
Jim Bowden see you guys McCourt is not an insane cheap skate, he obviously knows his baseball and has a plan. Weaver is coming back guys for 10 mill a year hooray!
2005-10-31 00:08:38
347.   LAT
So Gillick, special advisor in Seattle, may be coming to the Los Angeles Dodgers near you.

Maybe he'll bring Beltre with him? This is the perfect solution.

Plaschke would be happy as a pig in, well, you know.

Tommy gets a "good old days" 3B who was raised in the "Dodger Way".

It fits in with McCourt's new found abhorrence for Moneyball and SABRs.

Frank gets good press, which is more of an aphrodisiac than money or sex.

And we the faithful, get all warm and fuzzy.

I only see one small problem with this bullet proof plan: Beltre hit .255 with 19HR and 87 RBI. But no matter cause, if you haven't heard, using stats to evaluate a player has gone the way of counting carbs.

2005-10-31 00:14:59
348.   dan reines
I must admit, I haven't read the reports from the press conference all that closely, because it just makes me mad. But: all the comments on this board (e.g. 347) about how Depodesta's firing is a backlash against sabermetrics...do we know this? Did McCourt make some kind of comment that leads us to believe this? Or is it just an assumption, or venting, or a little of both?

I don't begrudge anyone the venting (or the assumption, for that matter). I just was wondering if McCourt said something particularly outrageous that I might have missed.

2005-10-31 00:41:36
349.   Strike4
October 2004
McCourt: Good results Paul. Now cut payroll.
Depodesta: Okay Frank. Now remember, we can't afford to be fans. Just be patient and wait for the farm prospects.

October 2005
McCourt: Bad results Paul, you're fired. Maybe you should have considered the fans a little more. Gillick, win, but don't raise payroll. (Sigh)

Can anyone identify the farm prospects that Depodesta should get credit for? I was under the impression he inherited the top ones.

Counting his payoff, it looks like Depo was the 7th highest paid Dodger this year.

Having worked for an unsuccessful real estate developer, I recognize a lot of similar erratic priority setting by McCourt. It creates significant discontinuity and a tendency to look over one's shoulder. He called it vision, the rest of us called it chaos.

2005-10-31 00:45:37
350.   fanerman
348 - Based on what I hear, I tend to blame McCourt's media-sensitive thin-skinned do-what's-trendy not-fit-to-be-an-owner impulsive i-want-everybody-to-like-me ego.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-10-31 02:39:36
351.   bokonon42
Steve Henson gets a second piece in tomorrow's edition of the paper Bob used to subscribe to.

http://tinyurl.com/9s95u

He interviewed GMs Duquette (Baltimore) and Shapiro (Cleveland) both of whom said it wasn't fair to judge a GM's ability after 20 months. There's also a new (to me, anyway) quote from DePo: " 'It was an honor and a privilege to do the job,' he said. 'I'm grateful for the opportunity.' "

Henson also writes that Tampa Bay may be looking at DePo and Dan Evans for their GM slot. I'm inclined to root (tepidly) for whatever team DePo ends up with, especially if it's in the AL, but I have a long standing policy of rooting against every team from Florida.

2005-10-31 03:40:57
352.   bokonon42
Watching the replay of Meet The Press, Russert had Hamilton Jordon (wearing one of those Lance Armstrong wristbands, because nothing compliments a $2K suit like a $2 piece of plastic) on, has me wondering: What if DePo was Jimmy Carter? And Tommy is Ayatollah Khomeini. Don't know what that makes the McCourts (stagflation? malaise?), but it means the next GM will be Reagan! Evans was Ford. The Sheriff was Nixon.

Great. NBC pre-empts MTP for Katie and Matt telling me that somebody thinks Alito is the next SCOTUS nominee. Isn't this why G-d invented the scrolling news crawl?

2005-10-31 06:47:12
353.   Steve
Let's all just think before we do anything crazy, ok? Step back, take a deep, calming breath, and do anything but read Steve Henson for the next two weeks or so.

http://firejimbowden.blogspot.com/

2005-10-31 07:08:57
354.   mountainmover
Jon,

I have not read all the posts, so if I repeat someone, so sorry! The "Dodger Way" is generally the MLB way. Even Babe Ruth, Yogi Berra and other Yankees didn't finish their careers there. The same is true with most other teams. The facts are that some players don't know when to quit and young players are often ready to step in at certain positions. To say that is "the Dodger Way" is inaccurate and unfair. It is the way most teams conduct business.

Paul DePodesta was a genuinely nice man, but a poor communicator and not a confidence-inducing leader. The Dodgers need a good communicator and powerful leader in my opinion. I have no problem with DePodesta's trades. I do believe that even though Beltre's agent was the devil himself, Adrian would have signed with us for a hometown discount. I also believe he would have had a much better year than he did in Seattle, maybe not the MVP-type year he had the year before, but a good year. DePo failed to communicate with Adrian and that cost him. To compensate, he signed the injury-prone JD Drew. I believe we could have had AB for about the same money. That's what I have a problem with - Communication and Leadership. DePo was a great guy by all accounts. He's probably a good #2 guy, but I doubt if he'll ever be a GM again. McCourt as admitted his hiring error. Now his legacy will be determined by who he hires next!

2005-10-31 07:17:49
355.   King of the Hobos
The Rocky Mountain News thinks DePo could join the Rockies.

If that Henson article has any validity, then the Phillies better hire Hunsicker.

2005-10-31 07:26:29
356.   Bob Timmermann
354

I think Jon's point about showing what the "Dodger Way" was to show that the Dodgers aren't any different from any other team. He was showing the futility of trying to build a team in the "Dodger Way".

And if McCourt has admitted his error in hiring DePodesta, then what about all the other people he hired and fired already. McCourt must be making errors at a Jose Offerman-like level.

2005-10-31 07:27:26
357.   Jon Weisman
354 - If I say "Justice is the American Way," and justice is also the way of many other countries like Canada, does that mean justice is not the American Way?

I wasn't saying the Dodgers were unique. In fact, I was very much saying that they weren't, despite Lasorda would have us believe.

2005-10-31 07:33:38
358.   Bob Timmermann
Does anyone know if the "communication problems" that DePodesta had manifested itself in any way other than having people who had an agenda to tell a reporter, "DePodesta has communication problems."
2005-10-31 07:44:30
359.   SiGeg
356 -

"I do believe that even though Beltre's agent was the devil himself, Adrian would have signed with us for a hometown discount."

The best proof that this isn't true is that it isn't true. He was given a $60million offer, and did not accept it.

"I also believe he would have had a much better year than he did in Seattle, maybe not the MVP-type year he had the year before, but a good year."

OK, and I thought if Chan Ho Park had stayed a Dodger, he would have been one of the top pitchers in the NL. But we're probably both wrong, aren't we? Look, seriously, I actually think Beltre has some fine years ahead of him. He's young, and even some of his "bad" years were pretty good for a very young player in Dodger Stadium. I wouldn't mind him being a Dodger (though not for his current contract amount). But the arguments about how much better a player would have been had they not left the team are some of the weakest out there. There's simply no basis for them outside of fantasy.

"DePo failed to communicate with Adrian and that cost him."

GMs negotiate with agents, not with players. That's simply how it works.

I'm perfectly willing to believe, though I really have no way to know, that there were certain parts of being a GM that DePodesta has not yet mastered to a satisfactory level, including his skills at building important relationships with others in the organization, with players, etc. But this isn't a persuasive example.

2005-10-31 07:51:09
360.   FirstMohican
Maybe the "communications problem" was that he wasn't in the habit of calling and offering condolences to parting players and management. Sorry Cora and Colborn. Maybe, though, it was intentional. After Porter wasn't invited back, perhaps DePodesta thought "I'll impress McCourt with a similar dysfunctional approach!" At least now the Dodgers will likely sign Konerko now, increasing their 1B OPS by something like an astounding .05.
2005-10-31 07:51:12
361.   Bob Timmermann
Bob Keisser has a useless column in the P-T today.

http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_3167080

He used to be respected.

2005-10-31 08:41:53
362.   FirstMohican
Keisser criticized DePo for ONLY signing Kent to a 2 year contract. Keisser, the witch is dead, give it a rest.

I'm sure the Harvard grad will land on his mousepad with another team subscribing to stats analysis, or find a home with a company that fits his skills, like Halliburton.

Keisser's hatred for DePo has just risen to new levels. How in the world is that clever?

2005-10-31 08:51:15
363.   SiGeg
Sheesh. I don't think I'll be reading that column.
2005-10-31 08:56:21
364.   dzzrtRatt
351 Reading today's Shaikin and Henson pieces, it appears the Times realizes they blew the DePodesta story. The story was not "Unqualified Computer Geek Finally Ousted; Dodger Tradition Restored." As they did more reporting, they learned it was, "Dodgers in Hands of Reckless Fool; DePodesta Firing Termed 'Premature' by Experts."

By the way, per Henson, our payroll is now no longer $100 million even in theory. It probably won't even be the $85 million it was in '05. That's called "burying the lead."

(Maybe that's been mentioned already. I was considering staying up all night to post on DT, but got sleepy.)

2005-10-31 09:07:36
365.   Bob Timmermann
The McCourts have failed to consider that while there was a sizeable dislike of DePodesta among the Dodgers fan base, they didn't understand why there was. They didn't think that it was they who were the people that the fans are ultimately upset at. And now without DePodesta to complain about, people move up the ladder with their anger.
2005-10-31 09:11:10
366.   Kayaker7
365 Good point. The McCourts would have been better off keeping Depo around as the lightning rod, to keep the heat off them.
2005-10-31 09:14:10
367.   Bob Timmermann
"Frank, dear, it's raining outside, can you go up on the roof to see if the lightning rods are in place."
"Jamie, that's dangerous."
"But if they aren't in place, the house will burn down."
"OK, dear."
"But remember, it's your decision!"
2005-10-31 09:17:15
368.   blue22
It probably won't even be the $85 million it was in '05.

I'd be pleasantly surprised, but my gut feeling is that the new front office will want to spend some money. I'm thinking a big contract gets thrown at Konerko (who becomes the subject of a hotly contested LA vs LA bidding war), a handful of other local boys like Geoff Jenkins (via trade), Nomar, and/or Jacque Jones (both FAs), and an overpaid pitcher or two.

A near $100M 2006 team:

C - Navarro
1B - Konerko
2B - Kent
SS - Robles or Nomar
3B - Nomar or 3B Randa-like re-tread
CF - Drew
LF - Jenkins/Jones
RF - Ledee/Werth/Cruz

Penny, Lowe, OPerez, Weaver (could be back now?), Lilly

Bullpen as usual.

It's not Depo's vision of '06, but it at least seems competitive.

2005-10-31 09:17:18
369.   Kayaker7
367 LOL. What's funny is that Depodesta never had a problem taking the heat. He just didn't give a damn. Ironically, that is exactly why the McCourts did not like Depo, when it was actually his best trait.
2005-10-31 09:22:41
370.   dzzrtRatt
Things have reached a perilous point when I'm reading that the Dodgers might not get Gillick and it makes me anxious.

I continue to believe that this was all about PR plus a soap opera involving both McCourts, Lasorda, Hershiser, Collins and DePodesta. Critics and fans of sabermetric methods are reacting predictably, feeling vindicated or aghast, respectively. But I doubt it was even a topic of conversation while this decision was being processed.

Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me if the result was a team that operated according to "Moneyball-lite" principles--a form of sabermetrics that applies to most of the team, but exempts players that Tommy deems to be 'true Dodgers' like LoDuca.

This seems especially likely given McCourt's apparent intention to pocket the profits from having the NL's biggest attendance, and to keep payroll low. The logical outcome of that plan is to avoid big FA commitments, and to promote as many talented, minimum wage players as possible.

When DePo said he saw a 'dynasty' coming for the Dodgers, I don't think McCourt disagreed. He just didn't want DePo in charge of it--because of ego and PR.

That said, the fish rots from the head, and if anyone can screw up a good situation, it's obviously the McCourts.

2005-10-31 09:26:54
371.   dzzrtRatt
368 Here's why I disagree with you. From this morning's Times:

"The Dodgers had the second-highest attendance in the major leagues and made money this year, but industry sources said McCourt wants to trim payroll. About $86 million was spent on players last year, and about $70 million already is committed for next year.

"McCourt has scaled back an earlier promise of a $100-million payroll, and now says somewhat vaguely, 'We will spend what it takes to win.' But sources said DePodesta operated within a strict budget that is more likely to shrink than grow."

My gut tells me Konerko is going to the Angels.

2005-10-31 09:33:00
372.   fanerman
370-371
I think you're right. Hopefully their "cheapness" means they're not trading the prospects.
2005-10-31 09:42:04
373.   blue22
371 - Like I said, I sincerely hope the payroll isn't increased by a whole lot. Steady as she goes, wait til '07 to execute on the "Dodger Way". However, if your intent is a moderate payroll, isn't Depo the guy you want in place?
2005-10-31 09:51:14
374.   dzzrtRatt
373 Without question, yes. That's why I say--McCourt's decision had nothing to do with policy.

McCourt was 100 percent behind DePodesta's policies because he bought the idea that DePodesta could make the Dodgers like the A's, a contending team that didn't cost a lot of money.

What McCourt, who's kinda dumb, didn't foresee was that DePodesta was going to have to do some unpopular things to carry out that plan. McCourt's priority is to make money on the cheap, but good PR is a close second, and is especially important to his wife.

What McCourt wants is a guy who will do what he expected DePodesta to do, but will do it in a "popular" way. It's just the kind of fuzzy thinking that unsuccessful, wishful-thinking executives in every industry are prey to. But McCourt, or his PR advisor, has convinced him that if he repackages DePo's ideas in a box labeled "Dodger Tradition," with gift wrapping that features the faces of '88, he'll be able to have it both ways.

We'll see.

2005-10-31 09:53:30
375.   Bob Timmermann
If we're bringing back the heroes of 1988, I demand to see Danny Heep and John Tudor working for the Dodgers! And Franklin Stubbs!
2005-10-31 09:56:40
376.   blue22
374 - I'll feel much better about all of this if McCourt believed in Depo's vision, but just didn't appreciate his execution (even if his motivation is cheapness, not some ideological concept of 'leveraging market inefficiencies' ). If the new guys come in and maintain some of the same direction, I'll be ok with it.

If it turns out to be Bowden and Lasorda running the club, with Valentine in the dugout...well, Milwaukee looks like a fun club to follow.

2005-10-31 09:58:11
377.   blue22
375 - Anyone heard from Jose Gonzalez recently? I remember in 1998, he was the one guy from that team that was MIA in the 10th anniversary retrospective.
2005-10-31 09:59:06
378.   dzzrtRatt
P.S. What kind of jerk GM is this? He tells the public his payroll is $100 million, but tells his GM, "really, it's $80 million, but I want you to take the heat for not spending it, not me." And then fires the guy when the heat gets too intense.

Bob or anyone else with a vast encyclopedic knowledge: What is the history of fans and civic leaders forcing a bad owner to sell the team? Has it ever been done successfully? We need a case study so we can understand the strategy and tactics that will work.

My guess is the mayor of LA is one pressure point. Tactically, I could see a bunch of fabulous stunts, like airplanes flying over the stadium with a banner saying "McCourt Must Go." The fans could get into it, waving signs at the Stadium.

The issue isn't ripe enough yet. But within a year, it might be, so I think we should be prepared.

2005-10-31 10:01:16
379.   blue22
378 - Unfortunately, the Dodgers are in a strong position to win next year (did I really just type that sentence, leading off with the word "Unfortunately"?). As long as they win, the ownership will be tolerated, if not embraced.
2005-10-31 10:01:24
380.   alex 7
That's a big point. We assumed Depo was the perfect guy to build a solid team without needing $100 million.

Can the same be said about Gillick?

And won't the McCourt's get even more heat if a GM comes in and doesn't shake things up by signing free agents or trading prospects for more expensive players? If these things don't happen, it will seem odd to let go of a guy who wasn't going to do that either.

The McCourts want a mid-level payroll team.
Depo was willing to do that.
The McCourts want a more PR friendly GM to do the job.
Will this new PR friendly GM be as good at fielding a competitive team as Depo? Assuming a return to normal on the injury luck, anyone should be able to get 90 wins from the Dodgers next year if they don't do anything.

2005-10-31 10:02:38
381.   Kayaker7
378 A sensitive lot like the McCourts are just the type who could be forced out by a simple tactic like that.
2005-10-31 10:09:44
382.   bigcpa
378 Maybe our best bet would be to dynamite McCourt's parking lot into the Charles River. The banks foreclose on the team. We kidnap Eli Broad a la Old School and drop him off at the courthouse steps just in time for the public auction. It just might work.
2005-10-31 10:21:19
383.   A Slo
You guys have probably already noted this, but I just about choked on my coffee right now when I read that Henson mentioned as a candidate none other than...Jim Bowden. I just threw up in my mouth.
2005-10-31 10:25:56
384.   jasonungar05
yeah exactly, but I sharted.
2005-10-31 10:26:22
385.   Dr Love
Let's relax on the Jim Bowden speculation. Because it's just that at this point, speculation. In the same article that Henson says he could be a candidate, he also says this:

A Dodger spokeswoman said that Gillick is the only candidate the Dodgers have asked permission to speak to and that no candidates unaffiliated with teams had been contacted.

2005-10-31 10:31:13
386.   A Slo
A few years back, didn't Bowden, as GM of the Reds, refuse to speak with Dan Evans until "Tom" Lasorda came in the room? DO I have this story right? If so, don't you think Lasorda just giggles like a schoolgirl when he thinks of Bowden and would love to bring him aboard?
2005-10-31 10:31:24
387.   blue22
383 - Worst case scenario in my book is Lasorda and Bowden running the team, with Dusty in the dugout. (Did Tommy and Dusty make up?). They start trading the farm system for guys like Jorge Posada and Mike Lowell. The young'ns that do make it to the big club are subsequently destroyed by Dusty and his pitch-em-til-they're-dead management approach.

Of course, this pure "sky is falling" rhetoric. I'm withholding judgement until I see some decisions made. If we end up with Gillick and Hershiser in the Front Office, Valentine in the dugout, and keep a conservative roster and payroll approach, I think I'll be satisfied enough.

2005-10-31 10:31:56
388.   LAT
This morning already sucks. A good friend who is a rabid Giant fan was laughing his butt off at the whole Dodger situation. He acknowledges that the Dodgers may finish ahead of the Giants but at least they are not an embarassment. He is taking bets on which prospect the Dodgers trade to obtain some over the hill hitter like Jim Tomme.

I guess the good news is the Dodgers can't raise ticket prices. . .

can they?

2005-10-31 10:33:22
389.   blue22
386 - Mostly true, except Bowden referred to Evans as "Danny", not Tommy as "Tom".
2005-10-31 10:41:06
390.   dzzrtRatt
388 The stadium remodel creates a pretext for raising ticket prices.

Perhaps, with Camille Johnston, a Clinton/Gore Administration veteran on his team, McCourt will describe a ticket price increase as a "fan investment."

The Saturday press conference announcing "a search for a new GM" without acknowledging that the incumbent had been fired was plenty Clintonian. I assume we'll see more of that too-clever-by-half nonsense.

2005-10-31 10:46:16
391.   LAT
Once a little more time has gone by, Depo and Tracy will agree on one thing: that they were both lucky to get out when they did. In the long run, Depo will be better for this. If the Dodgers succeed this year he will still get credit, if they fail it will be more bad press for the McCourt's and the new GM. By the way, I now love Simmers and the LA Times. They are still idiots, but at least their vitriol is aimed at people I don't like.
2005-10-31 10:47:49
392.   Kayaker7
I don't care about ticket prices because I won't be buying any.
2005-10-31 10:49:41
393.   dzzrtRatt
388 This thread from The McCovey Chronicles is worth reading. Even among (some) fans of the Hated Ones, the DePodesta firing inspires concern. The blog owner's post is excellent, as are some of the comments.

http://tinyurl.com/crtrz

2005-10-31 10:50:32
394.   blue22
391 - If the Dodgers rebound as expected this year, don't you think the turnaround will be credited to the new management, or even worse, "chemistry" which didn't exist under Depo? Somehow I doubt Depo gets much credit from the MSM. Only if Drew gets hurt again, or Lowe finishes under .500, will Depo get attributed any credit/blame for next year.

And, yes, I am stunned that I found Simers to have a very interesting take on all of this. Plashke, geez, yikes. What an a-hole.

2005-10-31 10:50:54
395.   Dr Love
f the Dodgers succeed this year [DePo] will still get credit

By who, the press? He'll get nothing of the sort. The new GM and manager will be praised for righting the ship that DePo sunk.

2005-10-31 10:52:06
396.   Jon Weisman
391 - DePo will not get any credit for the 2006 Dodger success unless things happen like Drew hitting 50 HR. And even then ...
2005-10-31 10:54:52
397.   Bob Timmermann
A baseball owner will hold on to his or her team until he or she fails to please the other owners.

There have been many, many, many unpopular owners. And I don't think any were ever forced out by the fans.

Baseball is a cartel. The McCourts are part of it. Unless the other members of the cartel object, the McCourts will stay there.

2005-10-31 10:55:22
398.   LAT
Who am I?

The McCourt's incompetence has made me the happiest guy in LA. Until Saturday, I was the most despised sports owner in LA history. Now no one is even thinking about me.

2005-10-31 10:58:33
399.   A Slo
398 - Donald Sterling
2005-10-31 11:00:43
400.   blue22
393 - Posted on McCovey:

The Giants dodged a bullet. The specter of a huge payroll team with a great farm system run efficiently and creatively conjured the possibility of a division dynasty. That possibility is, thankfully, gone now.

[Sigh] What could've been.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-10-31 11:03:20
401.   dzzrtRatt
399 The list is longer than just Donald Stirling. How about:

Rupert Murdoch

Michael Eisner -- for two teams!

Georgia Frontiere

Al Davis

Bruce McNall (hero to zero, since it was all built on fraud)

and even Gene Autry, who was patronized with a sort of nostalgiac love, but earned zero respect as an owner.

2005-10-31 11:05:07
402.   LAT
I think that if Drew and Lowe have improved and healthy seasons and Kent repeats, people will give Depo credit for two resons. One, becasue he deserves it, much the way Evens deserved a fair amount of credit for 2004. Two, becasue the LA Times will want to give credit to anyone other than McCourt & Co. They will then criticize McCourt for firing Depo so quickly. The MSM is just a pack of wolves's looking for the wounded team to start feeding on.
2005-10-31 11:06:43
403.   Colorado Blue
It will be interesting if we get the players' perspective on all of the off-season shennanigans. Gagne seems to have been one of the most vocal and my take his "disguntled-ness" was aimed specifically at DePo.

I wonder if Kent even knows yet...

One of my criteria for the next GM is that he/she has the brass to stand up to Lasorda; or at least have slightly more weight when it comes to dealing with Frank and Jamie. I hear talk of Ng as candidate. She may be the sharpest person for the job, but my guess is she would in no way supercede Tommy's authority. If Lasorda truly sits at the right hand of the McCourts such that he is their voice of wisdom, then I fear the next decade will not be pretty. All-in-all I think Lasorda wants the next GM to be the one who "shows up early and leaves late", but leaves bottomline personnel decisions to his "Bluest-Highness".

2005-10-31 11:07:01
404.   dzzrtRatt
397 So, in theory, powerful people in LA could be in touch with the cartel to "express concerns" about the "viability" of the McCourt ownership. This would have to be a top-down sort of campaign. At the same time, a grassroots rebellion might get the attention of those in power in LA who could be induced to influence the outcome.

If Kenny Hahn were still alive, he'd be out there already, fulminating about this.

2005-10-31 11:07:43
405.   LAT
Ratt, all worthy mentions, but Sterling was our guest today on "The Biggest Loser."
2005-10-31 11:09:43
406.   Odysseus
390 I hesistate to make this point due to Jon's ban on politics, but this isn't really political as much as an observation.

The reason Clinton could say things like that and people still loved him was because he was a natural leader with a lot of charisma.

Bringing on his PR firm and trying to get McCourt, who appears to lack leadership qualities and charisma will make him come off a lot more like Kerry.

2005-10-31 11:11:44
407.   Bob Timmermann
Look at the list of unpopular owners now:
Peter Angelos
Jeffrey Loria
David Glass
Carl Pohlad

That's just to name a few. Who is going to force them to sell their interest in their teams? No one?

2005-10-31 11:13:25
408.   blue22
Lasorda's lasting influence over the McCourts has yet to be determined. I get the impression that Lasorda was able to get McCourt's ear simply because he spoke from the fans perspective. Depo's moves were very unpopular with the public, and his selection for manager (w/o even considering Orel or Scioscia) was likely the tipping point for Tommy. He was able to convince McCourt that if this is allowed to happen, he'll lose the fanbase forever. McCourt then took action.

I think to assume Lasorda will continue to have anything relating to final-say on baseball decisions is presumptious.

2005-10-31 11:15:50
409.   blue22
408 - I should make it clear that I think Tommy will have influence on this next wave of hires. After that, he probably falls back in to his role of PR figure head.
2005-10-31 11:21:55
410.   FirstMohican
Farfetched conspiracy theory alert: Anyone thought that maybe McCourt brought in a temp GM to absorb the blame while the Org. went throug a 2 year drastic change while it kept its farm system stocked etc. Fire the GM, win over some fans' and the media's hearts. Hire a new GM, spend the money and you've effectively rebuilt the entire org while GAINING favor with fans/media etc. And all that costs is about 2M to DePo over the next 3 years. Sounds like a good business deal to me.

Sorry if this has been speculated about already =)

2005-10-31 11:24:18
411.   Thomas Naccarato
I really liked Shaikin's article today. Did you read it Bob? It was front page too. Not of the Sports section but the actual newspaper!

It pretty much elaborated on what I said yesterday on post 197, and it was good to see Jon quoted in there.

2005-10-31 11:25:22
412.   JJoeScott
390 Perhaps, with Camille Johnston, a Clinton/Gore Administration veteran on his team, McCourt will describe a ticket price increase as a "fan investment."

I'd prefer hearing that the Dodgers will keep some of the prospects in a "lock box."

Brings me to my take on this: All the September spinning from the old PR regime that "the prospects are coming, the prospects are coming" contributed to the sweeping changes. Fan reaction to those messages, outside of this site, was measured by empty seats and - more important - lost stadium revenues. What does the "crisis plan" look like? Deliver "hope" for 2006 to the masses using your one chit: Lasorda. I don't know what the Spanish-speaking world is thinking about the Dodgers right now, but I would venture to say that Lasorda plays right into that ever-growing Dodgers demographic.

It would be one thing if it were only the Times they were playing to, but there's Fred Roggin, etc., all of whom had turned against the Dodgers' September party line. From a pure political campaign point of view, when your numbers are down, you fire the staff and switch gears. (At least that's what they do on "The West Wing!")

2005-10-31 11:26:12
413.   Colorado Blue
409 - Until one of the new guys does something that is not Dodgery.
2005-10-31 11:26:20
414.   Blaine
Excuse my ignorance, but what does MSM stand for? I am assuming media is in their somewhere from the context of where I have seen it.
2005-10-31 11:26:36
415.   molokai
Acutally real Clipper fans stopped despising DTS several years ago. Anyone who is still harping on what a bad owner DTS is, is dealing in old news. The Clippers are a class organization these days who are doing what it takes to compete in the NBA. I'm sure most of you are unaware of that because the town newspaper refuses to cover them even when they are the best team in the city.
2005-10-31 11:27:40
416.   Bob Timmermann
411
Thomas,
I cancelled my Times subscription yesterday and much to my surprise, they really did stop delivering it!

But I read Shaikin's article online.

2005-10-31 11:27:59
417.   Bob Timmermann
MSM = Mainstream media
2005-10-31 11:30:46
418.   dzzrtRatt
407 Most of those owners are members of Bud Selig's list of chosen victims, the "small market owner." Per Bud's ideological positioning, they can't be blamed; it's all the players association's fault.

But I would think a failed franchise in LA can't be tolerated. Obviously, we're not just talking about a bad baseball team--the Dodgers have been a bad baseball team for most of the past 20 years.

McCourt is the reverse of a Carl Pohlad. Pohlad could buy a winner for the fans of Minneapolis. He just chooses not to. It's not clear that McCourt can be counted on to make payroll.

The other side of the coin is, McCourt could be Selig's pet if he manages to put a winning team out there with a payroll of $60 million, failing to take advantage of the big market and TV dollars of LA. To Selig, that's how you get to parity.

2005-10-31 11:33:23
419.   JJoeScott
ADD RE: Empty Seats ...

Based on the Team Marketing Report's 2005 Fan Cost Index, each ticket-sold-not-used is an additional $21 in food and souvenirs not collected. Not to mention the $10! for parking.

(http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/08/31/fvi/index.html?cnn=yes)

2005-10-31 11:38:45
420.   Thomas Naccarato
401dzzrtRatt,
Knowing a little about the situation at hand, as well as a few people that are somewhat close with McNall--and I have even been fortunate enough to have met him. You would never want to meet a nicer gentleman in your life. He seems like a person you would trust as a best friend.

McNall's problems--as I'm told--was that he was clearly out of his league and unwisely made some very bad and illegal business moves, even some stuff he wasn't even aware of doing. A lot of stuff snowballed on him. His loans from Bank of America were ill-advised and he took some chances. However, the bigger crux of the issue was also the taxes. I can't remember the entire story, but it was simply to the point where it became too much and his entire world literally collapsed.

I'm not a hockey fan, but I don't think there is a person that loves the game can't say that its popularity wasn't helped by McNall's vision, and luck of getting Wayne Gretsky. The Great One supposedly still considers him a close friend--especially after McNall couldn't even pay him his contracted salary during the entire debacle. In fact, I think he even supported him when he did get out of jail.

So to call McNall a bad owner would be like calling Leonard Tose, the late owner of the Philadelphia Eagles a bad owner. When in actuality, both good people that got in over their heads, but yet, revitalized the teams they owned and the cities which they played in.

2005-10-31 11:40:28
421.   mountainmover
SIG,

"I do believe that even though Beltre's agent was the devil himself, Adrian would have signed with us for a hometown discount."

The best proof that this isn't true is that it isn't true. He was given a $60million offer, and did not accept it.

I have never heard that. is it from a credible source?

2005-10-31 11:42:51
422.   Thomas Naccarato
Bob, Glad to hear you took that first step, and got past the begging by offering greatly reduced delivery prices!

I of course felt bad and had to accept it.....(the new price, about half of what it once was.)

2005-10-31 11:46:29
423.   dzzrtRatt
420 Tommy, that's a fair criticism of what I said.
2005-10-31 11:48:31
424.   Bob Timmermann
I don't respond well to begging and offers like that. I used to have an AMEX card and the service was awful. I had my wallet stolen in Spain and when I called AMEX and said I needed a new card, the person said, "Well, do you need it soon? It might take a couple of weeks."
Fortunately, I had one "emergency" credit card that wasn't stolen and I used that for the rest of my trip.

When I got home, I cancelled the AMEX card although they tried to get me to stay by waiving the annual fee forever.

But I cannot be bought!

Well, not easily at least.

2005-10-31 11:55:53
425.   Telemachos
You know, when Depo was first hired those of us willing to give McCourt the benefit of the doubt thought he was embracing a forward-looking philosophy of Beane and Depodesta. But frankly, he probably picked Depo cuz he was the best and brightest prospect of the "young and cheap" group. I doubt McCourt has any coherent philosophy at all.
2005-10-31 11:59:33
426.   Thomas Naccarato
Hey, its all good.

I hear that McNall is really heavily into golf now, and I'm hoping to catch a game with him sometime. In fact when I met him it was at Riviera CC, when I was introduced to him by a friend.

2005-10-31 12:01:25
427.   Thomas Naccarato
424
Thanks for exposing what a easy sell I am!
2005-10-31 12:08:13
428.   sanchez101
418. Bud Selig doesnt care about parity unless he can offer it up as an excuse to get lots of free public money, or as an excuse to limit player salaries. McCourt is beginning to look a lot like Bud Selig to me. The only senior member of the organization that hasnt been fired and isnt a member of the McCourt family is Tommy Lasorda, much like Selig's family and cronies where trusted to run the Brewers into the ground. McCourt like Selig seems to have the same lack of leadership qualities and makes bonehead decisions every chance he gets, but is always cognizant of the bottom line.

I dont believe anything that McCourt or his organization says publicly, and why should I? He seems very believable most of the time, but at this point it all seems to be a facade.

2005-10-31 12:37:46
429.   Telemachos
http://tinyurl.com/8f9op

Apparently Theo Epstein will stay in Boston after all.

2005-10-31 12:44:38
430.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers chief operating officer, Marty Greenspan (or is it Greenspun), was hired by McCourt and not fired.

Yet.

2005-10-31 12:44:40
431.   Kayaker7
A link to an interview with Ben Platt, MLB.com reporter. Kinda interesting...but you have to endure "chemistry" and "leader."

http://tinyurl.com/ay8ty

2005-10-31 12:45:40
432.   LAT
Even Yahoo, the slowest news outlet on the internet, is getting into the act with the following headlines:

"Upheaval in L.A.: Dodger Blue has come unglued."

Actually, not a bad turn of phrase.

2005-10-31 12:46:51
433.   Kayaker7
By the way, Ben Platt used to the be the webmaster of the Dodgers website.
2005-10-31 12:49:41
434.   fanerman
429 - Well that idea just went down the crapper.
2005-10-31 12:50:11
435.   Kayaker7
432 The text of the story does not match the teaser. It seems the link on the Yahoo page is wrong.
2005-10-31 12:50:57
436.   SiGeg
421 It was very widely reported that the Dodgers offered Beltre more years than Seattle, but at a lower amount per year. The offer was for 6 years, and believed to be about $9million per year -- which would, of course, make it $54million, and not quite the $60million I made it out to be. However, I also remember that the reports were that the offer included the possibility of a seventh, option year. I don't know whose option, but that could bring the offer above the $60million mark. Maybe someone with more skills and time than I can find you a specific reference to this information.

The main point is that the Dodgers did offer Beltre lots and lots of money to be their 3rd baseman. I suppose taking that offer over the Seattle offer might have been interpreted as taking a "hometown discount." But he didn't take it.

2005-10-31 13:08:59
437.   dzzrtRatt
431 Thanks for the tip about the Ben Platt interview, but...ugh. Is he a reporter? His giving Jamie a thumbs up on the firing seems icky. "Time to let the Dodgers be the Dodgers again."

Then the rerun of Tracy's alibi about losing "all his leaders." Oh, please. Really, is this what GMs are supposed to do, and typically do? Pick players who are leaders, irrespective of how much money they want or how much they really contribute? What about coaches and the manager? Isn't that their job? Seems like all of Tracy's coaches were incredibly laconic guys. If Ventura was such a fabulous leader, make him a coach!

Platt seems to have pulled about 95 percent of his 'insights' out of his...uh...hat.

2005-10-31 13:16:34
438.   scareduck
368 - IMO the Angels are not going to pick up another Jim Thome. They already have Casey Kotchman who's ready to produce far more than whatever they got from Erstad, and behind him, Kendry Morales. Talk of Konerko going to the Angels is just that.
2005-10-31 13:16:54
439.   Kayaker7
437 I don't know why Finley always gets included as a vital link. How many at bats has the guy had in a Dodger uniform? It's not like he had a mediocre year like Beltre. Finley absolutely stunk this year.
2005-10-31 13:26:14
440.   capdodger
439 In the world of the Times reporter, the force field that would have fortified Beltre, and prevented his swoon this year, would have worked on Finley as well.
2005-10-31 13:26:40
441.   King of the Hobos
410 I've actually considered that, but it's slightly different. McCourt wanted to lower payroll and keep the team competetive, thus make lots of money and pay off the debt. DePo was suppose to do this. Well, DePo wasn't so successful, and it was clear fans would stop coming, and he might not make money. Realizing he's in a bad spot, he fired DePo, immediately making some money. He also has the ability to add "Dodger Tradition," thus making more money. The payroll, as rumored, will fall. If it had fallen further with DePo, fans would be pissed. Now payroll will fall with a respected GM (Gillick) or a Dodger (Hershiser). Fans will blindly spend money, unless the Dodgers start to lose. At that point, the new GM is gone, and Hershiser can replace him, again boosting money

I realize this is far-fetched, just an idea

2005-10-31 13:29:13
442.   King of the Hobos
Kent won the Silver Slugger for NL 2B, probably as expected. Sorry if this has been posted...
2005-10-31 13:29:15
443.   JJoeScott
Another thought re: Dodgers PR and Clinton/Gore --

I'm not sure how to react to the fact that this took place on a Saturday. Clearly it was a calculated move doing this on a "busy sports weekend" (quoting Hacksaw), with someone advancing the story late in the day (i.e., sometime after the Press-Telegram's deadline, since the Daily News report didn't get printed in Long Beach). So you hold a Saturday news conference and make the columnists and reporters drag themselves in on a weekend when they'd either be 1) off, or 2) covering USC or UCLA? What coverage were they trying to minimize? Are they hoping that Simers, et. al. don't show up and then are surprised when they do?

As a PR professional myself, I'm constantly surprised by the PR contingencies that are apparently not being thought through here by some supposed "professionals."

The other issue I haven't seen covered or addressed: Did something happen at the three days of organizational meetings that led to a necessary change? Did McCourt address this at all? In the real world, CEOs/managers do make these types of sudden changes in response to ... something. I don't mean something below-board or untowards, but maybe a disorganized organizational meeting, something business-related?

- JJS

2005-10-31 13:40:23
444.   King of the Hobos
The DRays talked with Valentine for 2 hours yesterday on the phone. They hope to interview him soon, and Chiba Lotte is expected to offer him a lot of money.

If we must have him, I do not want a bidding war with the Marines, as managers are far more important (by the fan's perspective) over there, and he just won the championship. My guess is, if he becomes the Dodgers manager, it will likely because he wants to manage here and not the money

2005-10-31 13:44:26
445.   dzzrtRatt
441 Realizing he's in a bad spot, he fired DePo, immediately making some money.

Except, DePodesta still gets paid. He had a contract. The only way McCourt saves himself anything is if DePodesta decides to take another job in the next three years. Which he might, but McCourt has no control over that. Certainly, McCourt's paycheck sets a floor for the cost of DePo's services to the A's, Rays, or whoever.

443 That's a really good point. McCourt didn't want to shout this move from the rooftops. He wanted it buried on a day when most LA sports fans are totally focused on football, and the sports media generally had football filling news holes. For example, the NY Times has said nothing so far about this, other than posting a wire story on its website.

But as is the case with most Clintonian press schemes, they don't work unless the media is already pre-sold on letting them work. McCourt had Plaschke, Tim Brown and Bob Keisser in his hip pocket, and I guess this Platt guy, but Shaikin, Henson, Hacksaw and others aren't buying it. The emerging storyline is, mostly, a negative for McCourt. His failings were in the background til Saturday. Now he's totally exposed, and will remain so, and there isn't much he can do about it.

2005-10-31 13:44:31
446.   Bob Timmermann
The Marines are from being the wealthiest franchise in Japan. They play in a tiny stadium and usually (except this year) play in front a few guests.

The company that owns the team, Lotte, is a candy company.

A very, very big candy company.

2005-10-31 13:46:07
447.   blue22
Speaking of the DRays, where does Depo go now? Does he take a year off, and get out of the spotlight? Does he take a lower tiered GM job like the DRays? Does he go back to work as an asst. GM for Beane or Shapiro?

If I'm him, I'd start over and interview for the DRays job, get them competitive, and get back some of the momentum that he had in his Oakland years.

2005-10-31 13:48:24
448.   Bob Timmermann
Since DePodesta is getting paid and his wife is going to give birth to their second child, I would take a year off, lay low, do some consulting and become Mr. Mom.
2005-10-31 13:52:39
449.   Dr Love
Valentine has an out clause to be a manager in the MLB. There wouldn't be any haggling with the Marines over his services.
2005-10-31 13:53:11
450.   King of the Hobos
Loney, Kemp, and Laroche have combined to double their walks today, from 4 to 8. They all have a stolen base as well (they need another to double that, from 4 to 7 so far)

445 DePo's not making a lot of money, and maybe McCourt sees the difference in attendance with DePo as GM and Gillick as GM as more than their combined salarie?

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-10-31 13:53:24
451.   blue22
448 - Sounds like a good way to spend a year or two to me.
2005-10-31 13:55:42
452.   King of the Hobos
Is Elias going to release the FA types soon? I guess they have until a week from Friday, but the sooner the better. Have they already been released and I've missed them? BA had them last year, and they haven't posted anything about them...
2005-10-31 14:01:07
453.   underdog
Sorry if this has been posted already but I just saw this - I'm sure the suspense was killing all of you, but it's official:

Dodgers to interview Gillick for GM
http://tinyurl.com/cv26u

"at sometime in the near future"
Not that it's important or anything.

2005-10-31 14:03:56
454.   Dr Love
DePo's not making a lot of money, and maybe McCourt sees the difference in attendance with DePo as GM and Gillick as GM as more than their combined salarie?

Difference in attendance? For starters, Pat Gillick isn't going to draw more fans to Chavez Ravine, fans don't come to a game or not come to a game because of a GM. And secondly, the Dodgers drew 3.6 million fans in 2005, tops in the NL.

2005-10-31 14:07:57
455.   Fletch
Gerry Hunsicker, Gerry Hunsicker, Gerry Hunsicker.

Thats what we need!!!!!

2005-10-31 14:08:46
456.   blue22
454 - I think it's got more to do with mitigating the inevitable decrease in attendance. The attendance this year had more to do with the success in '04 (as do most attendance trends).

As Jon points out in his previous article, season tickets will go up, or at the very least not decrease as much as if Depo had stayed on.

I've talked with a lot of people about this issue, and the majority of Dodger fans are happy about this. It's not just Bill Plaschke. It's not just the LA Times.

The majority of Dodger fans were upset at Tracy being fired. The majority of Dodger fans are happy that Depo is being fired.

2005-10-31 14:08:59
457.   King of the Hobos
454 Attendance figured to drop off because so many people dislike DePo. McCourt could have been convinced attendance will fall (it wouldn't fall much). I'm not saying people will go to see Gillick and his team, but rather the 20 people that refuse to see DePo's Dodgers will now go (and another 20 will stop).
2005-10-31 14:11:45
458.   jasonungar05
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9015106/2
2005-10-31 14:13:42
459.   Dr Love
456 - A fair point (I don't live in the LA area so I don't know what the pulse is there), but I highly doubt that was a significant reason. Although Frank McCourt has shown us that he's dumber than we think.
2005-10-31 14:16:11
460.   natepurcell
i think i am going to back hunsicker as well. i really liked what he did in houston. why did he resign?
2005-10-31 14:19:43
461.   LAT
Before anyone gets in a bidding war for Valenitine they should remember not to fall victim to one of the classic blunders, "Never get involved in a land war in Asia"
2005-10-31 14:21:13
462.   Bob Timmermann
why did he resign?

I am the new number 2.
You are number 6.

2005-10-31 14:22:03
463.   natepurcell
i dont understand what you're saying bob.
2005-10-31 14:22:44
464.   blue22
459 - I disagree, though he may not have been directly concerned about the loss of revenue due to attendance, I think one of the overwhelming reasons this happened was to try to get public approval behind him. Attendance and season ticket orders is an effective gauge of public support.
2005-10-31 14:23:48
465.   Rob M
I just heard Vic the Brick on 570 say "good riddance" to Kent if he demands a trade because "he's a DePo guy, all numbers, no clubhouse presence." And furthermore, he lamented the loss of Cora because it "broke up the best DP combination in baseball."

Really. This is the way most fans think.

2005-10-31 14:23:57
466.   Bob Timmermann
Someone else will Nate. It's an old person thing, you wouldn't understand. ;-)
2005-10-31 14:26:31
467.   Marty
Who is Number 1?

You are Number 4

2005-10-31 14:27:08
468.   Dr Love
I just heard Vic the Brick on 570 say "good riddance" to Kent if he demands a trade because "he's a DePo guy, all numbers, no clubhouse presence." And furthermore, he lamented the loss of Cora because it "broke up the best DP combination in baseball."

Call in and remind him that he couldn't crack the starting lineup on two teams that were better than the Dodgers in 2005, one of who was rather desparate for a 2B.

2005-10-31 14:28:51
469.   Bob Timmermann
Be seeing you, Number 4!
2005-10-31 14:29:38
470.   gvette
Marty-- Is Plaschke smoking a victory cigar at the Times building today?
2005-10-31 14:29:55
471.   Rob M
Even Plaschke gave DePo credit for the Kent thing, so maybe I'm understating The Brick's extraordinary density.
2005-10-31 14:31:34
472.   Marty
470 If he was, it would be outside the building. I did see him in the studio with a Trojan helmet and red cape on.
2005-10-31 14:31:40
473.   Bob Timmermann
I doubt Plaschke has to go in to the office very much. It's not like he's working the copy desk.

But since he writes all of his columns in longhand, he does need to find someone to carry it to the paper and transcribe it for him.

2005-10-31 14:33:51
474.   Marty
Jim Murray famously never signed on to the Times system. He wrote all his columns on a typewriter and they were couriered in.
2005-10-31 14:37:39
475.   gvette
471-- Someone in my office claims to have heard on the radio Vic "The Brick" warble a mangled version of the Stones "Satisfaction" with references to broken computers in honor of DePo.

Good to know that sports talk radio remains so classy. And some of you guys who know him claim he's a great guy? Even Simers thinks he's a joke.

2005-10-31 14:37:40
476.   King of the Hobos
Breaking News!

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=109723

Theo has not been re-signed, and has walked away!

2005-10-31 14:38:47
477.   Telemachos
I am not a number, I am a free man!

Vic the Brick is in fine form today... referring to Depo as De-pende## (crude Spanish word).

2005-10-31 14:40:54
478.   Telemachos
476 I can't see how he'd come here, given he'd demand $1+ million per year. Not to mention his reasons for walking away from the Boston job would be compounded here.
2005-10-31 14:42:39
479.   King of the Hobos
478 Please do not destroy me dream =)

I'd prefer DePo, but Theo might be nice. Who knows, maybe he left to take the Dodgers job. And maybe DePo can go to Boston.

2005-10-31 14:43:24
480.   blue22
476 - You don't think...I mean, come on...that's not even a possibility...maybe?
2005-10-31 14:43:27
481.   Marty
The Herald story says he walked because of meddling upper-management. Unless he wants to see how far he can take that tack, I don't see him wanting this job.
2005-10-31 14:44:45
482.   Rob M
476 Wow.

Considering he walked away from $1.5M per due to a disfunctional front office, and he's Boston born, he'll never take this job.

2005-10-31 14:46:09
483.   natepurcell
isnt theo too much like depo though? i would LOVE epstein, but i dont think its going to happen.

then again, i never thought depo was going to be fired this offseason.

2005-10-31 14:46:58
484.   King of the Hobos
481 He hated the Red Sox CEO (I believe). It was more a personal resentment towards one individual. Theo wanted Lucchino gone, or he was gone
2005-10-31 14:47:31
485.   fanerman
483 - The difference between Theo and DePo is that Theo is "cool" (remember that pic of him with the guitar?) so maybe he'll be good for PR.

A kid can dream.

2005-10-31 14:47:36
486.   natepurcell
and he's Boston born

so is Mccourt.

maybe their boston bond will be too strong and will reunite them once again.

2005-10-31 14:49:59
487.   gvette
476-- Wonder what tricks Lasorda has up his sleeve to torpedo any talk by the McCourts of contacting Epstein.
2005-10-31 14:50:38
488.   King of the Hobos
XM is speculating he could be on his way to the airport headed for the west coast, which means only one thing. This has as much credibility as someone like Vic the Brick, but I'm too excited after forcing Gillick down my throat the last 2 days
2005-10-31 14:50:45
489.   LAT
Tommy would never bless Theo and Frank would never pay him. Face it folks, the Dodgers have done a complete 180. Its all old school from here on in. Cleveland, A's, BoSox etc. they are all dead to the Dodgers.
2005-10-31 14:53:10
490.   blue22
Maybe it's some form of "Moneyball Solidarity".

Watch for Ricciardi to step down next :-P

2005-10-31 14:54:25
491.   natepurcell
if theo would let orel be his assistant and hire bobby valentine then lasorda would love theo.
2005-10-31 14:55:51
492.   fanerman
Wishful thinking from a dream kid...
McCourt wants to save money. That's what DePo was capable of. Another guy capable of that is Theo (we're on a first name basis with Epstein but not with DePo.. hmm). McCourt got rid of DePo because he made "bad moves" and didn't win last year. But he still wants to save money. McCourt was never pro-moneyball or anti-moneyball. He's only pro-moneysaver(ball).
There's another difference between DePo and Theo besides Theo being "cool." Theo is a "proven GM" who's won a championship in the place where it was impossible to win.

Anyway, it would never happen (Lasorda, more Moneyball, whatever), but it was a fun thought to entertain, if only for a second. Back to the DePo-loss grieving.

2005-10-31 14:55:56
493.   natepurcell
blue22 might be onto something.

the sabre GM community is doing a MLB mutiny/protest against the depo firing.

ITS A MASS QUITTING!!!

2005-10-31 14:55:58
494.   Uncle Miltie
Sox fans are crying in their chowdah!

Somebody check Peter Gammons' pulse.

2005-10-31 14:57:50
495.   fanerman
493 - They're all going to Oakland and they're going to make Oakland a World Series winner for $20 million.
2005-10-31 14:58:14
496.   Bob Timmermann
The Boston Herald story mentioned Sabean as a potential replacement for Esptein! Woo hoo! Get ready for some mighty old outfielders in Boston then.
2005-10-31 14:58:21
497.   natepurcell
what if depo and epstein trade places? i bet in some parallel universe out there, that has happened already.
2005-10-31 14:59:11
498.   fanerman
496 - I like Sabean where he is. DePo might go to San Fran just to screw McCourt.
2005-10-31 14:59:14
499.   blue22
493 - Has Bill James packed his things yet?

"Uh, Bill, Vicki from HR wants to see you? Yeah, better bring your keycard and laptop."

2005-10-31 14:59:51
500.   Bob Timmermann
A giant bubble named Rover is gobbling up guys like DePodesta and Epstein.
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2005-10-31 15:00:15
501.   King of the Hobos
It's a good day for Dodger prospects (and if Theo becomes a GM candidate, it's even better as Theo has publically stated he'd love to have a loaded farm system, and is smart enough not to trade them away)

Kemp 4-5, 2B, BB, SB
Loney 2-5, BB, SB, 2 Ks
Laroche 0-3, 2 BBs, SB, K

Dannemiller 1 IP, 4 H, 3 R, 2 HR

2005-10-31 15:00:41
502.   natepurcell
493 - They're all going to Oakland and they're going to make Oakland a World Series winner for $20 million.

that would be halarious. the sabre community is fed up with the old guard that they all unite, in Oakland, forming the ultimate sabre mind, creating the most cost efficient, most talented team baseball has ever witnessed.

the team will forever be known as SABRESTEIN.

2005-10-31 15:01:30
503.   natepurcell
hey hobos, whats kemps overrall numbers so far?
2005-10-31 15:04:55
504.   fawnkyj
Xm is speculating that Epstein might be thinking about the west coast because they see it as too conincidental that he declines their offer after Depo gets fired.

This has got to be the wackiest start of an offseason in a long while.

2005-10-31 15:05:07
505.   Dr Love
The Herald story says he walked because of meddling upper-management. Unless he wants to see how far he can take that tack, I don't see him wanting this job.

Agreed. I see no reason why Theo Epstein would take a job with the Dodgers. There are better organizations out there for him.

2005-10-31 15:06:00
506.   sanchez101
Im with the hobo king here, why not hope for Epstien? Its not like we've had anything to look forward lately. Sure in many ways it doesnt make sense, but this is the McCourts, nothing they do makes sense.
2005-10-31 15:06:13
507.   natepurcell
they all need to join beane in oakland and show the world that a sabre team with a low payroll can win it all.
2005-10-31 15:06:44
508.   fanerman
506 - Tell me about it. The thought is as amusing as it is hope-inspiring.
2005-10-31 15:09:07
509.   Telemachos
500 But doesn't #2 want "information... information... information!"

Perhaps Billy Beane is Rover. (which fits with 502)

2005-10-31 15:12:27
510.   gvette
491--Why in the world would Epstein agree to Lasorda favorite Valentine as his manager? How fast would it take Bobby V. to go around Theo to complain to Tommy (and Plaschke) about his roster when things get rough?

No way Lasorda lets it happen, no way the McCourts have the backbone to make it happen.

2005-10-31 15:12:57
511.   fawnkyj
meddling=lasorda
2005-10-31 15:13:24
512.   King of the Hobos
503 .366/.392/.521, 2 2Bs, 3 3Bs, 1 HR in 71 ABs. 3 BBs and 11 Ks
2005-10-31 15:14:19
513.   sanchez101
i could see why Epstein would want to come to LA; he's always coveted a strong farm system, and a flexible payroll and he's coming into team that can only improve, a healthy 05 dodgers wouldve won at least 82-games, probably more. Plus, as long as the team has moderate success, with faces like Valentine and Hershiser around, he should have an much easier time with the media than Depodesta. In fact, Depodesta is similar in many ways to Dan Duquette, the man Epstien replaced.

Of course, i still have no idea why Epstein would want to deal with the McCourts obvious ineptitude.

2005-10-31 15:14:44
514.   Bob Timmermann
"Frank, I think we need to fire the GM and replace with a guy who is pretty much just like him?"
"Jamie, that's a capital idea! Goes in line with changing the seats so that are pretty much the same color they've always been!"
2005-10-31 15:16:47
515.   Vishal
hahah, this theo epstein talk has given me my first real laughs since the depodesta news. this is all really funny to me now. it'd be so karmically perfect if depodesta now went to boston. the whole situation has taken on a darkly hilarious tinge.

anyone know what stage i'm at? acceptance? is apathy a stage?

2005-10-31 15:18:06
516.   bigcpa
Suffering Bruin- Start working on your mock Plaschke piece on Epstein's hiring.
2005-10-31 15:18:58
517.   sanchez101
-I think bob has a point, Depodesta wasnt fired for his management of the team so much as his poor PR. Epstien would, to a large extent, just continue down the road Depo set. Why would Epstien want to go somewhere else and start from scratch, when all the building blocks are here and the overall plan he would continue is already 2 years old, and probably through its worst time.
2005-10-31 15:19:08
518.   natepurcell
i think Jaime is pulling the strings behind closed doors. Depo wasnt cute enough or didnt want to cheat on his wife. she needs another boy toy.

enter theo. cute, 29 yr old guitar playing media darling. she'll have a blast with him!

2005-10-31 15:20:06
519.   fanerman
Re: them crazy McCourts would never hire Theo

Unless it's all one big conspiracy in the first place! (them crazy) McCourts want to keep payroll low but they figure DePo makes too many bold moves (or maybe DePo was a sacrificial lamb from the beginning, doing the dirty work before the "real" GM steps in), so he uses his Boston connections to contact Theo. Theo realizes DePo's in a bad situation so he volunteers to swap places with DePo so DePo can have a fresh start in Boston and Theo can take over a place with a great farm system. Lasorda volunteers (or is paid off) to feed information to the press that he and DePo have philosophical differences so then (them crazy) McCourts have an excuse to fire DePo so they can hire Theo. DePo goes to Boston. Everybody wins.

2005-10-31 15:20:24
520.   blue22
510 - Going quite literal, everything I've seen about Valentine is very SABR-friendly. Benny Agbayani (who is to Bobby V what Alex Cora was to Jim Tracy) was a Moneyball-type player.

I'm actually kind of excited if Valentine becomes the manager. It could be one of the few good things to come of this whole mess.

2005-10-31 15:21:41
521.   DaveP
maybe Epstein is headed to San Diego.
2005-10-31 15:22:44
522.   fanerman
521 - Talk about bubble bursting. Nightmare scenario number... oh, I've lost count.
2005-10-31 15:23:40
523.   Joe
I hate people who are Grammar Police but this is really bugging me...

It's "DePodesta," not "Depodesta" and it's "Lasorda," not "LaSorda".

2005-10-31 15:24:47
524.   Eric L
510 It's all hypothetical.. but...

Say Kid Theo does come to LA. He certainly has more "credibility" than DePo because of his shiny WS ring. Theo also seems like a smart guy and with his "credibility" he tells McCourt that no one interferes with his baseball decisions. He's already been through that once AND he saw from afar that DePo was forced out by Tommy (speculation, like I said, this is all hypothetical anyways).

He does a take it leave it thing with McCourt and flashes that ring again before he walks out the door.

2005-10-31 15:26:48
525.   gvette
517--Why would the McCourts pay Epstein twice the salary as the guy they just fired to carry out the plan that,they've been persuaded by Lasorda doesn't work?

How does hiring Epstein jibe with all the nonsense about returning to the "Dodger Way", as defined by Lasorda, to be carried out by his cronies?

2005-10-31 15:27:41
526.   Bob Timmermann
523
Along those lines, it's also Lo Duca.

And my ultimate pet peeve, November 11 is Veterans Day. Not Veteran's Day as all the signs at my workplace say. Except the ones where I've whited out the apostrophe.

2005-10-31 15:28:10
527.   fanerman
515 - I belive the stage is called "delirium."
2005-10-31 15:28:59
528.   King of the Hobos
Most people don't decline a 3 year, $4.5 mil contract. Theoretically, Theo could retire from baseball, which I rather doubt. Chances are he left because he hated various aspects of Boston (Lucchino et al.), but he has a plan. There are 3 GM openings that would probably wlecome him. Tampa Bay may not have the money, and you usually don't leave Boston for Tampa Bay (although you never know). The Phillies owner has stated he's interested in a Theo-type GM, as he's interviwing the Cleveland assistant GM tonight, and Philly has the money. The Dodgers are the other team. Another team with a GM could want him I guess.
2005-10-31 15:29:14
529.   King of the Hobos
Most people don't decline a 3 year, $4.5 mil contract. Theoretically, Theo could retire from baseball, which I rather doubt. Chances are he left because he hated various aspects of Boston (Lucchino et al.), but he has a plan. There are 3 GM openings that would probably wlecome him. Tampa Bay may not have the money, and you usually don't leave Boston for Tampa Bay (although you never know). The Phillies owner has stated he's interested in a Theo-type GM, as he's interviwing the Cleveland assistant GM tonight, and Philly has the money. The Dodgers are the other team. Another team with a GM could want him I guess.
2005-10-31 15:29:46
530.   Borchard504
What am I gonna do with my T shirt? "TeamDepo, he can do it, we can help".
2005-10-31 15:29:59
531.   Vishal
[525] hah, that sounds about right. thanks :)
2005-10-31 15:30:32
532.   Humma Kavula
524 Still doesn't make sense to me. But as Sanchez pointed out, nothing the McCourts do makes sense, so dream big.
2005-10-31 15:30:50
533.   Vishal
i meant [527] of course
2005-10-31 15:30:56
534.   King of the Hobos
Sorry for the double post...
2005-10-31 15:31:54
535.   Joe
What about Theo in Washington with DePo as his #2 guy?
2005-10-31 15:32:16
536.   scareduck
Why is there even any talk of this? ESPN is reporting Epstein has already concluded his contract with the Red Sox.
2005-10-31 15:32:34
537.   DaveP
529 - Kevin Towers is likely on his way out in San Diego, as well. He was given permission to interview for the Arizona job, but didn't get it.
2005-10-31 15:32:58
538.   scareduck
Oops, I'm an idiot.
2005-10-31 15:32:58
539.   gvette
530-- Maybe you can get a matched set with a "Ghame Over" T-shirt.
2005-10-31 15:33:12
540.   Bob Timmermann
524
In the world of the Dodgers now, black is white, right is wrong, gray is off-white, red is blue, love is hate, and bicycles are freight trains.
2005-10-31 15:33:36
541.   King of the Hobos
Rotoworld is reporting Epstein will probably take a year off rather than try for one of the open GM positions. If that's true, at least the dream was destroyed somewhat quickly
2005-10-31 15:42:14
542.   fanerman
And suddenly all the wishful thinking comes to a halt...
2005-10-31 15:45:27
543.   student of the game
541 Rotoworld is only quoting Gammons. On ESPNnews, Gammons mentioned that Theo's brother is a social worker and that Theo could join him. Somehow I doubt that Gammons has discussed with Mr. Epstein his plans in the event that a contract could not be agreed upon.
2005-10-31 15:46:32
544.   blue22
541 - The thought must be that he thinks a better job than LA/Philly/TB will open up next year.

Washington is the only one I can think of.

2005-10-31 15:48:39
545.   King of the Hobos
543 Oh, good. I was afraid they got it from an actual source
2005-10-31 15:49:08
546.   fanerman
Dodger Blues has been updated. Though he says DePo may also be a mistake, he mostly blames (them crazy) McCourts for the firings. I think every Dodger fan has to be a little upset with the firing if they take a step back, SABR or not. Dodger Blues' standpoint is the fundamental problem of what (them crazy) McCourts did. You don't fire a GM after 1 offseason of implementing his plan, after never getting the manager he wants, after you gave him the green light to fire the old manager and get down to the finalists for the new manager...
"Everyone who works for the Dodgers should be scared *, and for good reason. Your boss is a maniac. You want to freak people out on Halloween? Dress up as Frank and walk around Dodger Stadium."
2005-10-31 15:53:56
547.   fanerman
And is anybody up for making some "Fire The McCourts" t-shirts?
2005-10-31 16:01:00
548.   Joe
While people are making up shirts, can someone print up some "Fire Lucchino" for me? :-)
2005-10-31 16:02:52
549.   FirstMohican
541, 544 - If I were Epstien, I'd definitely tell the media I was considering a year off - especially if I wasn't. That definitely puts pressure on teams to pursue him. He sets himself up to be a the GM that people pursue rather than a name on a list of candidates.
2005-10-31 16:05:30
550.   FirstMohican
I can only hope that the fact that Epstein gets over the BoSox the first business day after the Dodgers lose their GM is not a coincidence.
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2005-10-31 16:05:43
551.   King of the Hobos
The ESPN Poll: "Where will Epstein be on Opening Day 2006" has the Dodgers in the lead at 39.6%, with Out of Baseball close behind at 35.2. Phillies GM at 17.3, and DRays at 7.7.
2005-10-31 20:18:18
552.   bokonon42
Conspiracy Theory: Steve Henson's highly placed AL East source from last week was a Red Sock relating a call Epstein took from Frank McCourt. DePo had to go before Epstein was willing to believe he'd get an L.A. job, which explains the otherwise weird timing. McCourt gets a Proven Champion GM, one who would, presumably, be willing and able to function on a budget, and the PR kick of dumping DePo. Lasorda gets DePo's head on a stick, Valentine in for Tracy, and all the tv/radio airtime his black, black heart can handle. Crazy?

Conspiracy theory #2: McCourt launched a DDOS attack on baseball toaster to keep me from posting conspiracy theory #1. This one I'm convinced is true.

2005-10-31 20:20:45
553.   fanerman
It's good to be back.

552 - That idea has crossed my mind before. And since I haven't had any good news in awhile, I'm entertaining the idea. At least I don't have Jim Bowden in my head... shiver....

2005-10-31 20:21:29
554.   fanerman
What did the AL East source say again? I forgot.
2005-10-31 20:25:10
555.   bokonon42
554- That DePodesta's job was in jeopardy.
2005-10-31 20:29:07
556.   bokonon42
My bad. It was't Henson, it was Tim Brown (10-23-2005): "A high-ranking American League East official said many believe the Dodger job might also open up, though owner Frank McCourt has insisted Paul DePodesta is safe and, indeed, DePodesta currently is conducting his own search for a manager."

http://tinyurl.com/d2lve

2005-10-31 20:39:08
557.   capdodger
KOH!! You broke the Toaster...
2005-10-31 20:46:43
558.   LAT
It would be a riot if Depo landed in Boston. Of course, Alex Cora wouldn't think it was so funny.
2005-10-31 20:54:01
559.   bokonon42
Tommy was on the Mason and Ireland show this afternoon. He ranked his GM picks 1. Gillick 2. Bowden. M&I are hardcore Bowden fans, G-d knows why.
2005-10-31 20:54:43
560.   King of the Hobos
557 It was an accident, I swear...

Well, McCourt has determined all him GM candidates. Of course, in an attempt to further anger DT posters, they're all confidential. He could be interviewing Bowden or Theo, and we won't know. All I can say is he better not be interviewing Bowden, as that would be uncool

2005-10-31 20:55:51
561.   King of the Hobos
559 If Tommy has a hand in picking the new GM, Philly better sign Hunsicker. Or maybe Tampa Bay could hire Bowden out of nowhere
2005-10-31 21:05:51
562.   Scanman33
547...

I think I have the copyright on that:

http://firethemccourts.blogspot.com/

2005-10-31 21:08:23
563.   Bob Timmermann
Just what are Jim Bowden's accomplishments that make everybody so keen on him? I'm really wondering what they are.
2005-10-31 21:10:24
564.   LAT
Interesting article at LA Times regarding Valentine's success in Japan. Good luck to Frank if he wants to hire Bobby. He made a shade under $3 million this year and is expected to get an extension of $4 million plus bonus in the near future. There is no way Frank is going to pay that kind of money to any mananger. In the end, it will have to come down to whether Valentine wants to comeback tot he US. Even if he does, its hard to imagine he will take less than $2 million for a multi-year deal and hard to imagine Frank paying it.
2005-10-31 21:11:02
565.   King of the Hobos
Simers' new article is up, I'm not really sure what it is. He doesn't seem to be Lasorda's biggest fan. At the end he mentioned the Gillick/Bowden thing from 559, saying an anonymous sportswriter had just flipped from a Lasorda interview saying he couldn't reveal any candidates. Maybe Bowden isn't a candidate then!

And Lasorda explains his GM philosophy: "Einstein once said an ounce of loyalty is worth more than a pound of knowledge." Of course, Bowden has neither

2005-10-31 21:12:56
566.   King of the Hobos
563 He signed Loaiza. And...took two Rule V players that were both kept? And he may have done something good for the Reds I guess
2005-10-31 21:15:10
567.   Xeifrank
wow, what a couple of days it's been on DT. I've been very busy and unable to read most of the comments. Anyone care to summarize the last 566 posts in one sentence. :) I'm sure Bob could do it.
vr, Xei
2005-10-31 21:16:57
568.   King of the Hobos
567 Dodgers Tradition isn't what Lasorda and co. think, people still mad about DePo, a lot of people want Theo, and no one wants Bowden, but Lasorda. There's probably more...
2005-10-31 21:18:44
569.   Bob Timmermann
Tommy Lasorda is evil, but not as incompetent as Frank McCourt, but Theo Epstein would be a good replacement, except he can't be replaced and nobody who says that they know something about the history of the Dodgers really does know anything, especially Plaschke.
2005-10-31 21:21:43
570.   Bob Timmermann
So who won the 1-sentence essay contest (an homage to Plaschke I assume)? Does the winner get a free trip to Washington?
2005-10-31 21:21:44
571.   gvette
559-- Of course Lasorda would like Bowden after good old Jim pulled that stunt at the Winter Meetings where he refused to meet with Dan Evans without Tommy being present. For Tommy it sounds like it's all about showing respect.

Mason & Ireland love Bowden because he would always come on their show when he was an ESPN talking head. Apparently for the media, competence is secondary to whether you're cooperative, and a lively interview.

2005-10-31 21:25:27
572.   King of the Hobos
We can sign Bowden and let him do his interviews, but we can't allow him to make baseball decisions. His sole purpose would be to ramble to the media about nothing, and lead them in the wrong direction about who the Dodgers will sign. If he has any other resposibilities, then I can't handle him
2005-10-31 21:32:23
573.   LAT
572 His sole purpose would be to ramble to the media about nothing, and lead them in the wrong direction about who the Dodgers will sign.

But that's Tommy's job!

2005-10-31 21:35:14
574.   Bob Timmermann
Krikorian and McDonnell loved Kevin Malone because he showed up on their show a lot. When Malone held a press conference after he got fired (and blamed the Times for it), Malone specifically cited Krikorian as a reporter who was fair.

I really doubt DePodesta is going to be holding a press conference like Malone's.

2005-10-31 21:47:16
575.   das411
And to summarize for XF, the current theories are:

Epstein and Valentine to LA
DePodesta to Boston
Hunsicker to Phila
Gillick to Tampa Bay
Bowden...wherever as long as it isn't here
Crasnick lurks on this board
Gammons is crying himself to sleep

Am I about right?

And who else is expecting an all-time classic "Where is the Love??" on Yard Work sometime soon? :)

2005-10-31 21:51:20
576.   LAT
Words I don't say very often, but I though Simmers article was pretty good. He is trying to point out to Tommy, who is an LA icon, that going to bat for the McCourt's as hard as Tommy has is a very risky proposition. In additon, the article shows what some of us thougght to be true. Sadly, Tommy's blind support of the McCourts is bourne out of their giving him a platform, not becasue his 50+ years of basebase experience and acuman tells him these are owners who know what they are doing. I think SImmers exposes this entire sad story for what it is.

BTW, the one part where Simmers is so very wrong is comparing Tommy to Wooden. Coach Wooden is the builder of character, a moral beacon, and a someone to be revered. Tommy is a glorified cheerleader who would carry blue and white pom-poms.

2005-10-31 21:58:11
577.   fanerman
Was Bowden the Reds GM when Lasorda traded Konerko for Shaw? Why would Lasorda like so much a guy that totally fleeced him? Maybe because Bowden managed to get the better of the "great Tommy Lasorda", Lasorda respects him so much.
2005-10-31 21:59:10
578.   Xeifrank
LasorRa was just inteRViewed by Rob Fukuzaki on the MNF post game show. He was pissed oR appeaRed to be pissed about RepoRts that he badmouthed Depodesta. He said he neVeR eVeR said anything bad about Depo. He said all peRsonnel decisions weRe in the hands of the McCouRts. He wouldn't Really comment on who he thought they should hiRe foR the two Vacancies. Then he did some big DodgeR cheeRleading at the end of the inteRView. VR, Xei
2005-10-31 21:59:22
579.   Steve
He's a cheerleader. He's great to have around. And if you ask him who he wants as GM, and he says Jim Bowden, and then, God Forbid, you actually go hire Jim Bowden, well, whose fault is that?
2005-10-31 22:02:03
580.   King of the Hobos
578 Am I missing something in that post? Is the strange use of capital letters have some sort of meaning?
2005-10-31 22:03:06
581.   fanerman
580 - It's a secret code that if solved will reveal the next Dodger GM and when McCourt will leave the Dodgers.
2005-10-31 22:03:37
582.   King of the Hobos
580 That should be "does," not "is."
2005-10-31 22:05:28
583.   Bob Timmermann
It's xeifrank's way of telling us that Tommy Lasorda was really married to Mary Magdalene.
2005-10-31 22:05:33
584.   King of the Hobos
So what importance does R and V have? Even if 581 is correct, I still have no idea what's going on
2005-10-31 22:08:14
585.   fanerman
583 - But according to The Da Vinci Code, wasn't Mary Magdalene married to.... what are you getting at? Do we need to start a "Fire Jesus" blog?
2005-10-31 22:08:46
586.   bokonon42
Up thread there was a discussion about how it's Lasorad, but DePodesta, but Lo Duca. Frank is a rebel.
2005-10-31 22:09:09
587.   Steve
Do we need to start a "Fire Jesus" blog?

I already shut that one down.

2005-10-31 22:10:02
588.   bokonon42
Lasorda, even.
2005-10-31 22:10:44
589.   molokai
Hopefully it is xeifranks's way of saying he has no interest in what the grammar police have to say.
2005-10-31 22:11:47
590.   Xeifrank
578. Sorry for the confusion in my last post. I was just showing my pet peeve of people who capitalize the letters R and V in every word. 586 caught on! :) vr, Xei
2005-10-31 22:14:04
591.   fanerman
The capitalized R's and V's were:

RRVRRRRRVRVRRRRRRRVRRRVVR

That should be in Humbugardy somehow.

590 - Who capitalizes their R's and V's?

2005-10-31 22:14:04
592.   King of the Hobos
I guess it's good that it's not some crazy message to hire Robert Valentine
2005-10-31 22:16:22
593.   Bob Timmermann
My initials are RVT so I guess I would be using a lot of capital Rs and Vs.
2005-10-31 22:18:27
594.   King of the Hobos
Henson's article is up. He says "The Dodgers would not comment on whether Epstein would be contacted." Hopefully it's just like when they wouldn't comment on DePo's dismissal

He also says Glenn Hoffman is close to signing with the Padres to be their 3B coach

2005-10-31 22:20:13
595.   Bob Timmermann
Nepotism, but in a good way!

http://tinyurl.com/8b7l2

2005-10-31 22:21:29
596.   bokonon42
The bottom of the article says, "Times staff writer Tim Brown contributed to this report." Any chance Tim Brown is Epstein's brother-in-law, or something?
2005-10-31 22:23:26
597.   Steve
He also says Glenn Hoffman is close to signing with the Padres to be their 3B coach

So we won't have to worry about hitting the cutoff man next year...

2005-10-31 22:25:20
598.   Bob Timmermann
Glenn Hoffman playing along Trevor Hoffman would again ensure that eventually the lesser brother of the pair of players would get in some useless time with the Dodgers before joining his more illustrious brother.

Which was an awkward way of bringing up the Gwynns.

2005-10-31 22:28:11
599.   dzzrtRatt
that assumes Trevor re-signs...he's looking for Billy Wagner money.
2005-10-31 22:29:33
600.   Bob Timmermann
Then perhaps it's part of the Padres: "One Hoffman on the Payroll" policy.
Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2005-10-31 22:29:40
601.   Steve
Tim Brown has all the AL East contacts.
2005-10-31 22:44:52
602.   dzzrtRatt
595 Does this mean the St. Louis Post-Dispatch is going to hire you to wave your arms in the newsroom as deadlines sapproach?
2005-10-31 22:45:28
603.   dzzrtRatt
...as deadlines approach.
2005-10-31 22:46:18
604.   natepurcell
i just came back from saw II. again, the ending was really good and i did not expect it coming.

i see that tommy backs bowden after gillick.

please God, if you have any mercy in you, we dodger fans have gone through enough, we dont need to go through a tenure of bowden.

2005-10-31 22:49:15
605.   Bob Timmermann
When it comes to writing, Tom is Tony and I'm Chris. Or he's Trevor and I'm Glenn.
2005-10-31 22:53:21
606.   das411
Bob, do the Hoffmans hold the record for most career saves by a pair of brothers in MLB?

Or did Lee Arthur have a brother?

2005-10-31 22:54:10
607.   dzzrtRatt
Man, there is something Shakesperean about the Epstein/Lucchino breakup. The drama would only be enhanced if McCourt, after having dispatched DePodesta--an Epstein look-alike and think-alike--induces Epstein to join him--the man whose bitter disappointment at losing the Red Sox to Lucchino's group led him concoct the scheme to control the Dodgers.

This whole business of Lucchino dictating a column to the Boston Herald columnist Dan Shaughnessy that pointed out how much Epstein owed Lucchino as a mentor--and then Epstein viewing that self-promoting act as a final betrayal, causing him to walk away from a ridiculously lucrative contract...

I think, absolutely, if McCourt hires Epstein, Lucchino has to hire DePodesta, and like two medieval principalities, the Sox and Bums will go to war.

2005-10-31 22:58:49
608.   dodgerYoda
Forgive my ignorance but why all the Bowden hate? Just curious.
2005-10-31 22:59:23
609.   NPB
The cult of the general manager has reached true critical mass. Now fans are speculating about GM comings and goings like they used to discuss player movements. Why don't GMs just get together at the winter meetings to trade one another?
2005-10-31 23:02:15
610.   dzzrtRatt
Is it my stress-gnarled imagination, or has T.J. Simers suddenly morphed into a pretty good columnist? I used to just loathe the guy's pathetically transparent act, but through this surreal period, he's been consistently, uh, not half-bad.

Maybe it's from hanging around his daughter.

2005-10-31 23:02:20
611.   natepurcell
Forgive my ignorance but why all the Bowden hate? Just curious.

see cristian guzmans deal for a microcosm of his evilness to an organization.

2005-10-31 23:06:39
612.   molokai
608
He is generally credited with running down the Red's franchise while he was the GM. He traded most of the young players for veterans and then brought in cheap broken pitchers for Gullet to fix. Some of this I'm sure was due to budget contraints but none of his deals really paid off that I can remember, though I'd have to do some research to really make that statement.
Then I think the idea of signing Castilla and Guzman to man 3b & SS for the Nationals has pretty much soured everyone on him as those two signing alone might have prevented the Nationals from competing this year.
2005-10-31 23:07:54
613.   fanerman
610 - Because he's anti-McCourt? The enemy of my enemy is... where's Jon?
2005-10-31 23:08:44
614.   molokai
610
It is strictly because you are now Anti-McCourt and Anti-Lasorda and since you agree with him you like him. He is still the same lazy, lousy writer he was before McCourt fired Depodesta, except that for a few days he has an agenda.
2005-10-31 23:11:11
615.   Steve
Not to mention the jettisoning of perfectly serviceable pitchers just before his pitching staff hit the wall.
2005-10-31 23:14:25
616.   regfairfield
The Guzman deal, while it turned out worse than any of his other moves, I don't think was the worst thing he did. At the very least, Guzman had good defensive numbers, (but those unexpectedly disappeared) and with the going market for shortstops, it wasn't a unthinkably horrible move, and it never crossed my mind as the worst deal of the offseason.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone thought getting Vinny Castilla was a good idea.

Also, he seems to simply hate his young players, and has no regard for young pitching talent. Examples:

Traded Zach Day for Preston Wilson, despite the fact he already had Ryan Church and, to a lesser extent, Termell Sledge.

Traded Tomo Okha for a backup second baseman (Junior Spivey) because of chemistry issues.

Let Sunny Kim go on waivers for no apparent reason.

In other words, he'd get along real well with Dusty Baker.

2005-10-31 23:17:12
617.   dzzrtRatt
614 No, that's not it. His writing has gained some gravitas. It seems as if he finally sees that what he writes might actually have an impact, absurd as that might seem, and so he's trying to mensch up a little. I thought the Lasorda column was excellent.

I'll give him a few weeks. It might wear off.

2005-10-31 23:17:23
618.   Bob Timmermann
Also Bowden compared the players association possible strike in 2002 to 9/11.

''If players want to strike, they ought to just pick Sept. 11, because that's what it's going to do to the game,'' Bowden said before Thursday's game. ''I don't think there's going to be a work stoppage. I don't think anybody's that dumb.

''If they do walk out, make sure it's Sept. 11. Be symbolic. Let Donald Fehr drive the plane right into the building, if that's what they want to do.''

2005-10-31 23:17:33
619.   Steve
The only good deal he made all year was with Ed Wade, which is sort of like Pauly Shore outacting Gilbert Gottfried.
2005-10-31 23:23:38
620.   das411
Steve, why would you insult Pauly Shore like that?
2005-10-31 23:29:35
621.   molokai
While trying to do some research on Bowden I did find this information interesting:
Executive of the Year
2001- Gillick
1999- Bowden
1998- Hunsicker
So all 3 of the players in our GM search were at one time executives of the year. Before you get impressed with that, just remember that Fred Claire was also executive of the year in 1988.
2005-10-31 23:29:37
622.   Uncle Miltie
618- please send that quote to the LA Times. It might give Bowden enough bad to press for the Dodgers not to hire him.

616- I think Sledge was injured when Bowden traded for Preston Wilson

Bowden is also the same guy who refused to talk with Evans because Tommy Lasorda wasn't in the room. You can see why Lasorda loves him.

2005-10-31 23:31:13
623.   regfairfield
622Fair enough, he still had a player superior to Wilson in Ryan Church.
2005-10-31 23:31:14
624.   molokai
Also found that Logan White used to work for Gillick at Baltimore and according to the Daily news several other current Dodger scouts also worked for Gillick before.
2005-10-31 23:32:00
625.   Uncle Miltie
http://tinyurl.com/9qm5j

Bowden refused to allow a scheduled meeting with rookie Los Angeles general manager Dan Evans at baseball's winter meetings on Wednesday night to begin without Dodgers senior vice president Tommy Lasorda present. Lasorda, who during his two-decade stint as the Dodgers' manager was arguably even more flamboyant than Bowden, was in another part of the hotel at the time but was summoned to the meeting to pacify Bowden.

" After the meeting, Evans held a closed-door, one-on-one meeting in which he voiced his displeasure to Bowden. Bowden later claimed his initial remarks about not allowing the meeting to begin until Lasorda was present were ''just in fun.''

2005-10-31 23:35:53
626.   Steve
Preston Wilson.

Maybe the 22nd Century will be better

2005-10-31 23:36:39
627.   molokai
Zach Day pitched all of 11 innings for the Rockies. I don't think they missed him.
Ohka I'll give you was a bad deal.
2005-10-31 23:36:58
628.   Bob Timmermann
Washington Post Dec. 29, 2004 - about Bowden

Jonathan Niednagel, of the Brain Type Institute.....I refer to him as the Mozart of GMs. He's ahead of his time. He sees things most people do not see. He's sort of a Bill Gates type...

2005-10-31 23:37:33
629.   oldbear
I think you guys are giving too much credence to Tommy Lasorda. Lasorda, like Steve said is just a cheerleader. He isnt making decisions.

I believe that the McCourts, once they found out that Epstein would be available, decided to at that time get rid of DePo. Its all about the McCourts wanting Theo. It's got nothing to do with the "Dodger Way" spin job that Tommy Lasorda has put out.

McCourts need better publicity, but still a guy that will follow through with the plan established (win on a budget). Enter Theo Epstein.

I think this has been a done deal since last week.

And I read on another board someone relayed they heard Jayson Stark say that Pat Gillick would be named the Phils GM tomorrow. So cross him off the list.

Its Theo Epstein people. And we'll still be in good hands. And the McCourts will get the media and fans off their back.

2005-10-31 23:38:31
630.   Steve
But they had to play Preston Wilson.
2005-10-31 23:39:46
631.   LAT
Bob, looks like Tom won't be the next. . . ugh fifth, PR person for the Dodgers. If I didn't know better I might think you wrote the part about McCourt. Nice to see the turn of phrase runs in the family.
2005-10-31 23:39:55
632.   molokai
I miss Dan Evans. Wasn't that one of his best attributes was putting Lasorda out to pasture?
2005-10-31 23:40:57
633.   das411
Wow, after actually checking, Yard Work has this take on the scrap vs saber argument:

"S: But come on, you can't tell me that the White Sox were anything more than a 90 win team that caught some breaks at the right time.
AMCG: Yes, and I tell you more: they won 99 games, three games, four games, and four more games. Maybe your computers can add that up."

http://www.yard-work.org/

2005-10-31 23:41:31
634.   molokai
629
I think your dreaming but if your right does that mean all the bad things that were said about the McCourts on DT get purged and the love starts again?
2005-10-31 23:42:50
635.   Steve
I would take Dan Evans right now just to never hear Bowden's name ever again. Don't let the blandly mediocre to possibly positive be the enemy of the truly evil.
2005-10-31 23:43:03
636.   molokai
629
Why would Theo be able to win on a budget? He had the second highest budget in baseball.
2005-10-31 23:43:48
637.   LAT
Old Bear, wish I could buy into it but I can't.
2005-10-31 23:45:00
638.   Steve
Aren't Epstein and DePodesta, like, friends?
2005-10-31 23:48:25
639.   Bob Timmermann
My brother writes a whole lot better than I do. Which is a good thing since he gets paid to do it for a living.
2005-10-31 23:49:26
640.   LAT
Why does McCourt have to pay Theo $2 million to do what Depo was already doing for $500K? Just to blunt the PR sword? Its the off season. With the exception of us obsessed weirdos :-) the rest of the country was ready to move on to football. Pick an established manager and the PR din dies down. Nope, this is not some master plan by McCourt this is the S.S. Dodgers about 30 seconds from the iceberg.
2005-10-31 23:54:24
641.   regfairfield
636 Epstein seems to have a gift for picking very useful players up off waivers, or incredibly cheap, i.e. Arroyo, Ortiz, Mueller, and Bellhorn. He's never been tested without the crutch of a large payroll, but I have more faith in him than I would in Bowden or any other traditionalist.
2005-11-01 00:00:43
642.   molokai
Can't argue with that. Without David Ortiz what is Epstein? That is simply the greatest waiver wire pickup that I can ever remember. The difference between a World Championship for both the Red Sox and possibly the Twins.
2005-11-01 00:04:32
643.   oldbear
640. Well I think just picking an established manager would help quel the negative PR, especially if it was Orel Hershiser. However, maybe the new PR firm hired by the McCourts told them that a new manager wouldnt do it, that they needed to hire a New GM also.

And perhaps they believe that Theo Epstein is the best GM on the market, and think that he legitamely is better than DePo.

This is the same crew that fired Ross Porter and hired Charley Steiner. They do weird stuff like this.

The McCourts didnt get rich from listening to old fogies talk about the 'good ole days', and implementing those ideas. They got rich bc they had good business sense.

Fixing the PR in one off-season by bringing in new management could have been a priority of the McCourts.

Its a lot more sensible to me that DePo was fired bc Epstein became available, NOT because of Lasorda over dinner casually convincing them to all the sudden change course of the franchise.

2005-11-01 00:05:47
644.   bokonon42
Dumping DePo is a punk move, no matter who gets the GM seat next. But it'd still be better if Bowden doesn't get it.
2005-11-01 00:08:09
645.   Strike4
Depo claims he's left an emerging dynasty behind. Where is it? The current roster outside of Kent and Gagne is weak; genius is not made of Navarro and Choi. In 260 comments since I asked, nobody has specified which farm prospects are creditable specifically to Depodesta. What has been his contribution to the Dodgers besides following the owner's instruction to cut payroll? What would another year have shown?

Maybe that's the subject for Wednesday's DT topic, the Depodesta Tribute:

Indeed your Dodger days are done
Oh Paul, we hardly knew ye

2005-11-01 00:10:05
646.   A Slo
Bob,

I can think of a newspaper that could use a writer like that.

2005-11-01 00:11:26
647.   LAT
Its a lot more sensible to me that DePo was fired bc Epstein became available, NOT because of Lasorda over dinner casually convincing them to all the sudden change course of the franchise.

I agree. Its sensible to you and me but that does not make it so to Frank. I think Frank is susceptible to such a knee-jerk reaction. Anyway, I hope you are right. If so, it would be some amazing manuvering.

2005-11-01 00:16:53
648.   oldbear
645.Whats wrong with building around Bradley, Werth, Perez, Choi, Navarro, Kent, Drew, Penny,Gagne, and Lowe?

And Martin, Guzman, LaRoche, Broxton, Billingsley, Orenduff in the minors?

David Ortiz, before he became Big Papi, was in fact Hee Seop Choi.

2005-11-01 00:17:55
649.   bokonon42
645- Nobody, outside of nate, would be likely to know DePo's draft picks beyond Luke Hocheyver. That's the thing about draft picks: it takes a while for them to turn in to butterflies. Good of you to dismiss Navarro and Choi (what about Bradley, Antonio Perez, and Werth? Are they any good?), the way you set Kent asside. So, apart from the things DePo did right, what else was he good for?
2005-11-01 00:18:54
650.   fanerman
645 - He didn't really have much of a chance to draft prospects. He was available for 2 drafts. Just because he said the Dodgers were ready to be a dynasty doesn't mean he did all the work. Much of the work was done by Dan Evans. He didn't just cut payroll. He got rid of a lot of overrated players who weren't going to help beyond another year or two. You're right. We hardly knew him. We don't really know what else he would have done but he showed that he had a plan and he wasn't going to let a few sportswriters get in his way.
Show/Hide Comments 651-700
2005-11-01 00:22:15
651.   regfairfield
645 DeWitt, Orenduff, and arguably Ruggiano are the only DePo picks that have shown relevancy so far.

However, just because he didn't pick the players doesn't mean that the Dodgers don't have an emerging dynasty.

I simply can't comprehend why people don't think J.D. Drew is a good player, injuries or not.

2005-11-01 00:28:25
652.   bokonon42
Nate and refairfield, then.
2005-11-01 00:34:39
653.   LAT
645. The emerging dynasty is in Jacksonville. I don't think Depo claimed he was responsible for that emerging dynasty, he has given that credit to his predecessor and Logan White. Depo gets credit for not screwing it up like many GMs would.

As for his contribution to the team. That is exactly the point. He was not given a chance to make a contribution.

2005-11-01 00:40:03
654.   GoBears
I've enjoyed all the Epstein fantasies, but I think they're nuts. We have no reason other than sheer, blind optimism to think that Epstein's resignation had anything to do with the Dodgers, or that McCourt is looking for just a media-friendly version of DePodesta. I think we have lots of reason to believe that McCourt thought no more deeply than the 71-91 record, and the bad press that the team was getting for it. Whether Lasorda is Wormtongue or just an annoying old man who believes only a portion of what he says probably doesn't matter. McCourt is the story, and it's a really bad story. Others saw this way before I did. But the series of best-case scenarios that would have to be come true to make this turn out well is mind-boggling.

McCourt fired DePodesta because he's short-sighted and not at all convinced by the approach to player evaluation and team-building that most of us would prefer.

But as I said, I have enjoyed the fantasies.

2005-11-01 01:05:39
655.   Joon
651 : There are also Elbert, Johnson, Raglani, and Dunlap from the 2004 draft.

Elbert has a good chance to be in BA's top 100 list this year. He had a strong finish this season.

2005-11-01 01:14:17
656.   Strike4
The three primary Depodesta accomplishments were achieving a lower payroll, further developing a promising set of minor leaguers per 648 (that's why I asked), and avoiding the temptation for short-term gain by trading prospects. Probably the third one cost him his job. In my opinion, the current foundation players are not championship caliber, and simply folding in the up and comers will not produce a championship team. Every position that needed upgrading on Opening Day 2005 still needs upgrading (1sp, c, 1b, 3b, lf, and who knows about Bradley). It would have been fun to see what Depo would do with the freed up payroll between now and early March, assuming he was allowed to use it. He showed boldness in trading in 2004, and now he had more resources to work with.
2005-11-01 01:44:57
657.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I doubt McCourt planned to put himself in a position to get Theo, but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't try to take advantage of this opportunity to reel him in. This could all work out in some bizarre way, but I don't think we should get our hopes up.

Also, while Theo had a huge payroll, he also had no farm system to speak of when he came in. And he has been able to improve that farm system, while making a fair number of trades in a win-now mode, in a really tough media marked with pressures and expectations that can be fatal to good baseball sense. I didn't like the Renteria signing, and I think Theo should have given Pedro the fourth year, so it's not as if he's perfect, but neither was DePo. Like DePo, though, I think he'll be proactive and protect the farm, especially since Theo would inherit one of baseball's best systems.

Theo's WS ring also gives him a bulletproof rep in the media--he can always shove it in Simers' face--Theo still has the aura that comes from being the GM who broke baseball's most agonizing curse after trading a franchise legend. And it's clear that for McCourt, a GM needs to have a strong public profile.

If McCourt is right, I hope he takes this opportunity. If he does, he'll do it for the wrong reasons--because of the Boston connections and PR--and it's still a profound travesty to DePo, but this is the owner we have, so what else can I hope for.

Otherwise, I just hope that Gillick takes the Phillie job, which will stymie Tommy's scheming. If Theo's out, Gillick's absence might then put Kim Ng in the running, who is my second preference to DePo. Ng was a hold-over from the Evans regime, so I think she understands the need to build from within and has at least worked in an organizational philosophy I trust.

WWSH

2005-11-01 01:50:46
658.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Strike out "If McCourt is right" in the second to last graph. Oops.

WWSH

2005-11-01 02:30:27
659.   John A
Theo Epstein left the Red Sox because he thought Larry Lucchino was an ingrate and disrespected him. Even if that's so, what Lucchino did to Epstein was child's play compared to what McCourt did to DePo. If Epstein had such issues with Boston management, why would he want to come to the snakepit that is the McCourt/Lasorda Dodgers? As for the idea that McCourt set this up weeks ago--sorry can anybody seriously believe Frank McCourt is that clever?
2005-11-01 03:20:49
660.   Kilgore Trout
If their differences regarding who should manage the Dodgers contributed to DePodesta's firing, why would any potential general manager, experienced or not, agree to work for the McCourts?

Isn't selection of a manager a standard prerogative of the general manager?

2005-11-01 03:36:41
661.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
The Daily News has a source saying that Theo will probably take a year off. Oh well.

Gillick seems the primary choice of McCourt, but he may go to Philly. I think Hunsicker might be okay at a first glance, but I don't know enough about him.

I still would prefer Kim Ng, who I think now has enough experience, and who is familiar with the organization. There would also be some benefits to having the first female GM in MLB history, both from a PR standpoint and from a macro-social perspective. It doesn't justify firing DePo, but it might let the franchise draw some good out of this whole mess.

WWSH

2005-11-01 07:00:03
662.   Fletch
Hunsicker left Houston mostly because he was in a power struggle with Drayton McLane. McLane was tight with the $$$ and only wanted to spend it his way. Jeff Kent was on of those issues, he wanted to pay Kent and McLane was too cheap. Hunsicker was right, they needed someone else to drive in runs.
2005-11-01 07:07:13
663.   SMY
Post 502 cracked me up. Good one, natepurcell.
2005-11-01 07:21:00
664.   King of the Hobos
Hopefully McCourt has contacted all the clubs to get permission for a GM candidate. Because Washington has yet to be contacted, supposedly:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/31/AR2005103101504.html

2005-11-01 07:26:03
665.   FirstMohican
If you assume that one of the last straws for DePo was his pool of managerial candidates, and you consider McCourt's and Lasorda's discussed criteria, then it would be very hypocritical to disclude Epstein from consideration.

664 - I don't know, Jim Bowden would probably make the circus here complete. Imagine the material that the media would have.

2005-11-01 07:29:21
666.   FirstMohican
661 - I don't know how common it is for an AGM to stay through two GM's, but she has been under Dan Evans and DePodesta. Both did an arguably decent job. Considering the way the media isn't ashamed of bashing Jamie McCourt because she has a vagina, I feel sorry for Kim Ng if she's ever the GM in LA.
2005-11-01 07:36:41
667.   FirstMohican
From Simers' latest masterpiece:

ONE OF our sportswriters was listening to sports-talk radio on 570, and you can see why he wants to remain nameless. He said Lasorda was talking about how he couldn't mention the names of GM or managerial candidates.

The sportswriter then turned to 710, and Lasorda came on, naming Pat Gillick as his No. 1 GM choice and Jim Bowden No. 2 — with Bobby Valentine to manage.

2005-11-01 07:40:50
668.   SMY
I think I read somewhere that the Phillies made Gillick an offer. If Bowden comes to LA, I give up.
2005-11-01 07:44:39
669.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 666

But remember the member of the Mets org. who was canned for making lame racial remarks to Ng a while ago. The testosterone-driven world of sports talk radio might not care, but the Times will certainly be sensitive about ad-hominem attacks on a female minority GM, especially in a region like SoCal with such a large Asian population.

WWSH

2005-11-01 08:00:22
670.   Marty
669 That was "old friend" Bill Singer who made those remarks about Ng. Later, he said it was the booze talking.
2005-11-01 08:07:41
671.   Bob Timmermann
Not only was it the booze talking for Singer, he said he was also on Atkins and that made him extra loopy.
2005-11-01 08:08:31
672.   FirstMohican
669 - Are you saying that the Times might be more sensitive to a minority female as opposed to a non-minority female? If so I think you may be right. It's still absurd to me how far they go with jokes and assumptions about her because of her gender.

668 - Same here.

2005-11-01 08:11:14
673.   natepurcell
i certainly would like Ng to be GM, but i think there are too many obstacles for that to happen. Sadly to say, the male driven world of baseball is probably not ready for a female GM. Besides, depo already tried doing the creative hiring with depo, i sense the next gm will be from the old guard; a safe choice with an impeccable resume.

that said, i am the most comfortable with hunsicker. He knows how to develop prospects (oswalt, berkman, ensberg, lidge, etc), he isnt afraid to make a midseason trade to put his team over the top (beltran), and he has made some pretty good FA signings (pettite, clemens, kent). His ballclubs have a good mixture of young and old and i think he would work really well here in LA.

on the other hand, Gillick has had a long past with Logan white and some of the scouts so if he is hired, it will probably mean that white is retained through his tenure, which is a move that ranks at the top of my list.

to the person that asked what prospects has depo brought in, well, what prospects did dan evans bring in? It was logan white that did all the drafting, but give credit to evans for getting white and for depo being smart enough to retain white and give him 100% to do his job. Also give depo credit for not steering away from the long term vision when the criticisms in the media was heavy. But, if you want some of the bigger prospects that were drafted or traded for under depos reign, these are the big ones:

Elbert- recently named #1 overall prospect in the SAL league. Electric stuff from the left side. if he can lower the walks, work on offspeed, he could be a star.
Dewitt- A 3b, but could move to 2b. Rated as the most polished HS bat in his draft class. Scouts project him to hit for a high average and 25-30 homerun power.
Navarro- 21 yr old catcher who held his own in his big league call up. Looks to be a solid major league catcher. Great contact skills, great batting eye, and switch hits. Also shows that leadership "intangible" behind the plate.

there are others, some other people can elaborate cause i have to head off for class.

2005-11-01 08:18:01
674.   gvette
The only things that you can predict about the McCourts are that 1)they fire a lot of people, and 2)they hire family members. Other than that, they are totally erratic and any attempts to figure what they will do are doomed.

That said, it's fun to see people on this site conjure up scenarios where Epstein comes to LA. Just because you want it to happen doesn't make it so.

More likely you're looking at a good ole baseball man to "restore" Dodger glory.
If the knock on DePo was that he was a first time GM learning on the job, why would the McCourts elevate the similarly (in)experienced Ng to the position?

2005-11-01 08:19:56
675.   Bob Timmermann
If a major U.S. newspaper were to start making jokes about Kim Ng's ancestry, they would receive a lot of flack for it. That's just not done today. Every Asian-American advocacy group would call for a boycott of the Times. Advertisers would threaten to cancel. Writers and editors would be fired.

Ethnic jokes are pretty much a third rail now in newspapers.

2005-11-01 08:23:49
676.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 672

Yep, that's essentially my point. I don't think it's right--I think people should trait others with a basic level of respect, whatever their race or gender, but that's just not the way things work. Having columnists make cracks about the first minority GM in the history of major American professional sports (is this true?, I must assume it is) could have real political reprecussions, with real consequences in circulation and advertising revenue.

I wouldn't count Ng out of the running yet, because I think she'd have Jamie McCourt's backing. Frank McCourt at least is obsessed with "Dodger Tradition" and hiring baseball's first minority GM could be pitched as something in the tradition of No. 42.

That being said, I think Gillick is the front runner, so Ng's only chance is if Gillick turns us down for Phillie. Ng will at least get an interview, I think, as the minority candidate. Maybe she'll impress.

I like what I hear about Hunsicker. Hopefully that might be a viable option.

WWSH

2005-11-01 08:24:11
677.   Marty
My gut feeling is it's going to be Bowden. Then we trade Larouche or Guzman for Piazza. Fun times.
2005-11-01 08:24:31
678.   SMY
"Writers and editors would be fired."

Is it wrong of me to hope Plaschke makes an ethnic joke sometime soon?

2005-11-01 08:24:56
679.   dzzrtRatt
673 Right. It's what DePo didn't do that matters most. He didn't panic in either 2004 or 2005 and trade prospects to get aging stars who would have made Plaschke's cheeks go all rosey-red. We might've been able to get the Unit or Beltran or any number of players in mid-04 if he'd been willing to trade blue chip prospects instead of who he did trade. At virtually every turn, he resisted that temptation, even though he had to know (and McCourt's PR wizards surely echoed) that making such trades would boost his approval ratings. He set a tone that player development was the priority.

To be fair, so did Evans, who took even more hell in '03 than DePo did in '04

2005-11-01 08:25:23
680.   gvette
675-- All of that didn't stop the Times from running a Simers column where he made fun of Choi's inability to speak English.
2005-11-01 08:27:09
681.   Bob Timmermann
Since Piazza is a free agent, you can't trade anything for him, but I think Marty knows that and was just presenting Bowden Horror Scenario #6.
2005-11-01 08:27:16
682.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 674

I think the knock on DePo was not so much inexperience as that he was a stathead who didn't understand chemistry. With Ng, the storyline might be very different--pioneering woman breaks into the male club of MLB front offices. I'm not saying this is very likely, but McCourt has clearly shown himself to be very erratic, and saying that hiring her in lieu of DePo would be bizarrely inconsistent is the same thing as saying DePo's job was safe because Tracy was let go. Maybe McCourt in his failing around might actually do something right for once, by accident if nothing else.

WWSH

2005-11-01 08:27:54
683.   Marty
It seems to me a lot of writers across the country have made fun of Guillen's english skills.
2005-11-01 08:28:56
684.   Dr Love
My gut feeling is it's going to be Bowden. Then we trade Larouche or Guzman for Piazza. Fun times.

I agree that it'll probably be Bowden now that it's clear Tommy is pushing for him. Ugh. But Piazza is a FA, so at least Bowden wouldn't give up something other than picks for him.

Is it wrong of me to hope Plaschke makes an ethnic joke sometime soon?

No, in fact we should pray for it.

2005-11-01 08:30:06
685.   gvette
676-- Without stepping into political "deep water", what do you consider a minority GM?

Kenny Williams is African American, as is Ozzie Newsome in the NFL, and several GM's in the NBA.

2005-11-01 08:31:42
686.   Marty
Hey, Piazza could sign somewhere else, THEN we trade for him. After all, this is Bowden we are talking about :)
2005-11-01 08:31:45
687.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 680

Ng's already made the national press by being in SI's list of the most influential women in sports, or something like that. She'll have a much higher profile than Choi, who's a pretty obscure ballpayer.

Not to say that that excuses Simers' behavior with Choi, but if Simers does the same sort of thing to Ng, the LAT will regret it.

WWSH

2005-11-01 08:33:10
688.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 685

Oops, I meant to say "female minority GM" in that earlier post.

WWSH

2005-11-01 08:35:33
689.   Bob Timmermann
I reread Simers column about Choi and he really wasn't making fun of Choi's ability to speak English. He was just focusing on how he was having a hard time finding the exact word to say to him and that it was good that he wasn't completely fluent in English because that saved Simers from the usual invective he gets from Dodgers players.

Simers seemed somewhat appreciative of Choi's willingness to put up with him.

2005-11-01 08:38:14
690.   Dr Love
female minority

Trent Lott told me you couldn't be both.

2005-11-01 08:40:30
691.   Bob Timmermann
After listening to Ozzie Guillen more and more during the postseason, he became a lot easier to understand. His accent is a little tough to pick up because in L.A., we are used to Spanish accents that are Mexican or Central American-twinged. But Guillen's is Caribbean and it sounds odd.
2005-11-01 08:46:00
692.   Marty
It's funny, I've worked with and been friends with a few Colombians in my life. Every one of them swore that only Colombians spoke real Spanish. I always found that fascinating.
2005-11-01 08:48:38
693.   gvette
689-- Bob, congratulations as the first one to ever find a level of sophistication and nuance in a Simers column.

I'm still not buying it though.

I would like to salute the PR geniuses/con artists who sold the McCourts that bill of goods about "The McCourts are the brand/the Dodgers are the product."

With people this self absorbed and gullible running the team, anything is possible.

2005-11-01 09:01:26
694.   Bob Timmermann
Simers definitely wasn't ridiculing Choi's English as much as he was ridiculing his performance at the time, but over all he seemed to like Choi.
2005-11-01 09:08:31
695.   Thomas Naccarato
If the Boston Red Sox were to hire Paul DePodesta, would that mean the majority of all here on Dodger Thoughts would become Red Sox fans?

(I've actually always felt that the Red Sox were my American League team, because any team that hates the Yankees is worth rooting for)

Prius Owners of the World-Unite!

2005-11-01 09:15:02
696.   Jesse
If I were Depodesta I'd lobby for the Tampa job and (Bowden pending) would trade the likes of Aubry Huff and Travis Lee for some choice prospects...
2005-11-01 09:18:08
697.   Vishal
[695] no way, dude. i would wish depodesta well in his new job, as i'm sure most people would, but i really couldn't care less about the red sox. and in fact, with all the yankee/red sox-centric baseball coverage, i find them a little annoying. i guess i'd hope he wins the AL east over the yankees though. but i wouldn't be a "fan" just cause he's the gm. that's silly.
2005-11-01 09:18:15
698.   regfairfield
695 I would hope not.
2005-11-01 09:19:02
699.   blue22
696 - That's what I'm hoping Depo does. That Tampa job is just about the best situation that someone like Depo could hope to move into anytime soon.

The young talent level is staggering, and as you mention, have some tradeable talent to bring in even more.

As the Yankees and Red Sox appear to be due for a bit of a slide from a roster standpoint (potentially resembling the Mets here soon), I'd love to see Depo make the DRays competitive.

2005-11-01 09:21:14
700.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think there was a DePodesta cult of personality. The majority of people here just liked his ideas and hoped they would get a shot.

Bowden is more of a guy who wants to have a cult of personality built around him.

Show/Hide Comments 701-750
2005-11-01 09:26:03
701.   Dr Love
If the Boston Red Sox were to hire Paul DePodesta, would that mean the majority of all here on Dodger Thoughts would become Red Sox fans?

You couldn't pay me enough money to be a Red Sox fan.

And there is zero chance that Epstein even seriously considers the Dodgers gig. And even less of a chance that the Dodgers consider him.

2005-11-01 09:26:24
702.   fanerman
700 - Agreed.
2005-11-01 09:29:06
703.   Vishal
[699] i think he was implying choice [dodger] prospects, in a fleecing of bowden.
2005-11-01 09:34:40
704.   Paul B
I liked Simers's column today. I'm torn a bit because while I think the view of Lasorda as a blowhard gas bag is accurate, Simers's portrayal was less that of a Machiavellian Prince and more that of a now-irrelevant pet of the McCourts. Kind of sad, notwithstanding my current degree of annoyance with the man.

And for those of you who, like me, found Lasorda's quoting of Einstein quite improbable: a quick Google search suggests Tommy (slightly) misquoted and (wildly) misattributed. (See http://tinyurl.com/9aj47)

2005-11-01 10:23:48
705.   SMY
Can anyone tell me where I can find an overview of Bowden's transactions with the Nationals?
2005-11-01 10:28:15
706.   molokai
I know most of you only read the LA Times but the writer for the Daily news felt that Bowden was a long shot and pointed to his 12 year mediocre record as GM as the reason for it.

I honestly could live with almost every candidate being mentioned except for Bowden. Hunsicker would be my top pick but I think we will get what is leftover after Phillie picks theirs. I have no interest in Kim Ng becoming our GM and I'll admit it has everything to do with her being a woman. Not that I care but I think the macho world of baseball does care and I could see players/scouts not wanting to play for us.

I hope Depo does try and get the TB job. I'm already a big fan since they are such an underdog and they do have some serious talent already at the big league level and two of the best hitting prospects in baseball bubbling just below it. With the right deals for pitching they could be a force very quickly. JMO

2005-11-01 10:29:12
707.   Bob Timmermann
You can just go to mlb.com, click on "Transactions" and then you can just go through all the transactions for the Nationals month by month.
2005-11-01 10:32:03
708.   blue22
As ridiculous as all the Theo talk is, I still can't get around the fact that there doesn't seem to be another job that's a fit for him.

The Phillies could be a possibility, but they seem to be the frontrunner to get Gillick now.

Washington's uncertain ownership situation, as well as Jim Bowden being currently employed there, makes it seem unlikely. He does feel like a DC kinda guy though.

San Diego seems the most obvious competitor. However, the Sandy Alderson presence there may not be the total control situation I'd assume Theo would want to walk into. Nevertheless, the Pads concern me the most as a potential destination.

Tampa - yeah right. There could always be other jobs opening up if he sits out a year - Seattle, Baltimore, Cincinnati, etc. LA just seems ripe, with the farm system and roster flexibility. Ownership is most likely working against LA, unless there really is something to the Boston connection.

Maybe he really does just leave baseball for awhile. I'm sure he's got options outside of the sport - he's not going hungry anytime soon.

2005-11-01 10:33:24
709.   SMY
Thanks.
2005-11-01 10:44:58
710.   bigcpa
Anyone hear that Jon is on Mason & Ireland 710 AM today?
2005-11-01 10:47:21
711.   LAT
Towers is leading candidate for Sox job. So Rome mentioned this morning.
2005-11-01 10:50:35
712.   blue22
711 - The Lucchino/Towers connection there. Of course Gammons thinks (hopes) it's Hunsicker.
2005-11-01 10:54:33
713.   Fallout
A topic for discussion:

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sports/pros/article_742783.php

Kent sought preview of team's plans

"Kent and his agent met with Frank McCourt on Thursday, two days before DePodesta was dismissed by the Dodgers."

2005-11-01 10:55:02
714.   Jesse
what time is he going to be on???

mason told depo that he's a "prospectus guy," a while back, though he's said many things since to make me think otherwise. i know it's entertainment and people are trying to ruffle feathers to get callers and whatnot, but is there any good sports talk show? gammonds comes on dan patrick once in a while, which is nice, phil hendry is on a sports station... my vote is phil hendry for best "sports talk guy." did anyone hear his rick monday fake spring training broadcast several years back? Really really funny.

2005-11-01 10:55:13
715.   bokonon42
710- I must assume that the reason he didn't tell us about it, is that he's going on to endorse Bowden.
2005-11-01 11:00:19
716.   Sushirabbit
I can't believe that Kent will be around after the fiasco he just witnessed. And I suspect other people will be seeking trades.
2005-11-01 11:01:20
717.   blue22
710 - Is anyone listening to a radio that can summarize, or do I have to spend my lunch break in my car?
2005-11-01 11:04:23
718.   Dr Love
I find it interesting that the post refering to Jon being on 710 AM is post #710.
2005-11-01 11:05:28
719.   Blaine
(714) 570 is just awful.
I don't mind The Loose Cannons if Vic the Brick is not around.
I kind of enjoy Mason and Ireland.
Glad the Big Nasty is gone.
I usually like listen when the national guys are on like Dan Patrick, James Brown.
Actually the national guys on 1540 during the weekends/nights are pretty good.
2005-11-01 11:06:44
720.   regfairfield
Isn't Mason and Ireland on at three now?
2005-11-01 11:08:46
721.   bigcpa
3-6pm per their website. Jon must be studying.
2005-11-01 11:12:14
722.   SMY
Hopefully there will be a summary for those of us who don't live in the area. Or do they have a web stream?
2005-11-01 11:15:54
723.   Jon Weisman
New post above (finally). And yes, the radio appearance is scheduled for today.
2005-11-01 12:11:28
724.   Telemachos
Does 710 offer streaming audio of their shows?

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