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Dodger home record: 39-30 (.565)
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1991-2007

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2008 Payroll Worksheet

Current Roster with Estimated 2008 Salaries
(updated March 28)

Most figures are estimates (some are wild estimates) but will be updated as information comes in. Corrections welcome.

More contract details here.

Starting Pitchers (5)
$12,300,000 Hiroki Kuroda
$10,000,000 Derek Lowe
$9,500,000 Brad Penny
$7,000,000 Esteban Loaiza
*$500,000 Chad Billingsley
Total: $39,300,000

Bullpen (6)
$2,000,000 Takashi Saito
$1,925,000 Joe Beimel
$1,125,000 Scott Proctor
*$500,000 Jonathan Broxton
$500,000 Chan Ho Park
*$400,000 Hong-Chih Kuo
Total: $6,450,000

Starting Lineup (8)
$14,100,000 Andruw Jones
$13,000,000 Rafael Furcal
$9,000,000 Jeff Kent
$8,500,000 Nomar Garciaparra
$8,000,000 Juan Pierre
$500,000 Russell Martin
*$400,000 James Loney
*$400,000 Matt Kemp
Total: $53,900,000

Bench (6)
$875,000 Gary Bennett
$600,000 Mark Sweeney
$424,500 Andre Ethier
$391,000 Delwyn Young
$390,000 Chin-Lung Hu
$390,000 Blake DeWitt
Total: $3,071,000

Disabled List
$12,000,000 Jason Schmidt
*$400,000 Tony Abreu
*$390,000 Andy LaRoche
Total: $12,790,000

Also Paying ...
$1,000,000 Brett Tomko
$750,000 Odalis Perez
$540,000 Yhency Brazoban
$500,000 Randy Wolf
$487,500 Jason Repko
$135,225 Rudy Seanez
$100,000 Mike Lieberthal
$50,000 Ramon Martinez
Total: $3,562,725

Working total: *$113,268,725

*Rough salary estimate

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The Beltre Sigh
2005-11-01 10:50
by Jon Weisman

It's been almost automatic for me this year. Adrian Beltre's name is mentioned, and inwardly I sigh.

Beltre is a player I have always rooted for, whom I have never stopped rooting for, even now that he wears some other city's uniform.

One year ago, I wanted - and expected - Beltre to do well in 2005, and to do well in a Dodger uniform. Neither happened, and frankly, I haven't wanted to deal with it.

Though Beltre continued to play excellent defense in his first season with the Mariners, his offensive statistics declined dramatically from his near-Most Valuable Player season of 2004 - even when adjusted for the tough hitting environment of Safeco Field in Seattle. Beltre batted .255 this season with an on-base percentage of .303 and a slugging percentage of .413. Using park-neutral statistics, he ranked 15th among 20 major-league third basemen with 475 or more plate appearances in VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) and 13th in EQA (Equivalent Average) according to Baseball Prospectus. His OPS+, or on-base percentage plus slugging percentage relative to a league average of 100, was 90, according to Baseball-Reference.com.

Nevertheless, in a world where many decry the $55 million signing of J.D. Drew - who was twice as valuable (31.0 VORP) offensively in 72 games this season than Beltre (15.1) was in 156, people still make the case that letting Beltre go to the Mariners for $64 million was a mistake.

It's a multi-point case arguing that Beltre:

1) would have signed for less money to stay with the Dodgers, had Dodger general manager Paul DePodesta made a more personal effort.
2) plays a valuable defensive position and plays it well.
3) plays almost every day.
4) is 26, meaning his career peak is probably still ahead.
5) was adjusting to a new environment, whereas in his Los Angeles comfort zone he would have done better.
6) was a True Dodger.

Again, speaking as someone who wanted the signing to happen, who completely bought into Beltre's transformation in 2004, let's see how the arguments hold up.

1) Beltre would have signed for less money to stay with the Dodgers, had Dodger general manager Paul DePodesta made a more personal effort.

At some level, this is probably true. If DePodesta had somehow become Beltre's best friend (and I mean that sincerely, not snidely) and then made a competitive offer, it's hard to imagine Beltre leaving.

But how much of a discount would Beltre have granted? Five million dollars? Ten million? Even under the best of circumstances, as long as Beltre agent Scott Boras was negotiating the deal, it's hard to imagine the cost of Beltre's contract coming down very much. Furthermore, isn't it just as likely that in order to make Beltre feel loved, DePodesta would have had to back up his perfume and roses with pretty much the same dollars he would offer someone he didn't love?

While I think the hometown discount argument might be true at some small level, I don't think it's true at a relevant one.

2) Beltre plays a valuable defensive position and plays it well.

A true statement. That the Dodgers struggled to fill third base defensively this year makes it even more pointed. But, speaking again as someone who adored Beltre, it's hard to say that his defensive contributions outweighed his offensive deficiencies enough to make him worth retaining for at least $11 million per year. (And offensively, in 2005, Antonio Perez was better.)

3) Beltre plays almost every day.

Beltre has played more than 150 games in four consecutive seasons and five of the past seven, while suffering from a botched appendectomy in a sixth. In 2004, we watched him play - and even thrive - with painful foot and ankle injuries. He is a gamer.

Where there is doubt going forward, especially in an eight-figure contract, is whether those injuries might reduce his effectiveness, even if he is in the lineup. For example, we have seen Beltre steal 43 bases in 59 attempts during his first three full seasons, then decline to 19 steals in 29 attempts over his next four. Is that a warning sign, or just a tangent?

4) Beltre is 26, meaning his career peak is probably still ahead.

I spent a good part of 2004 arguing that not only was Beltre's offensive explosion in 2004 real, it was not a fluke. (Or are "real" and "not a fluke" the same thing? Oh well - I really just needed a way to link to two past articles.)

Contrary to the belief of even some of his supporters, 2004 was not Beltre's first good season. In 2000, he had an OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage) of .835 with 20 home runs, 30 doubles and 56 walks - excellent for almost any third baseman of any age and absolutely outstanding for one who was 21. This followed a .780 OPS season in 1999, quite nice for someone at age 20. As I showed almost three years ago, it is not unusual for a young talent to start strongly, regress slightly, then regroup to become better than ever. For years, Beltre's offensive career track has most closely mirrored perhaps the best player of all time not in the Hall of Fame, Ron Santo. That, combined with the observable changes in Beltre's batting style in 2004 that showed him taking outside pitches to the opposite field instead of trying to pull them, led me to believe that Beltre would fulfill his superstar promise for many years to come.

However, Beltre supporters should at least consider the fact that for three of the past four seasons (we'll ignore the appendectomy year), his OPS has not topped .730. His EQA has not exceed the major league average in those years. There is certainly a great deal of risk that in a given year, Beltre is not going to deliver up to expectations. And that's a big deal when he's a cornerstone of your payroll.

5) Beltre was adjusting to a new environment, whereas in his Los Angeles comfort zone he would have done better.

This, I have to say, is perhaps the most peculiar argument I've seen Dodger fans have. A significant part of Dodger lore is the player who messes up in the L.A. whites, or is traded too soon, then goes on to have great success in another city. In fact, I would suspect that one of the few unifying threads between sabermetrically inclined and sabermetrically disinclined Dodger fans is this notion. So really, I'm surprised to see the argument materialize that the new surroundings hurt Beltre, and I have to think it's specifically a way to defend Beltre out of loyalty, love or hope - if not also a method to discredit DePodesta.

It's safe to say that you can find plenty of ex-Dodgers who needed no adjustment period with their new teams. It's also safe to say that any player who is worth $64 million should be talented enough not to require an adjustment period - that making this very argument undermines the overall case for signing him.

Furthermore, consider the players the Dodgers retain (yes, critics, there are some). Is there any kind of correlation, let alone causation, between repeated seasons in a Dodger uniform and maintaining performance?

Sure, it's completely possible that in the unique case of Beltre, leaving Los Angeles did harm him. We've all needed to adjust to new jobs, new homes, new cities, new bosses, new friends. We've all needed to adjust to distance from our families. But to what extent? Ultimately, it's a speculative argument, the kind of argument that could be made to justify signing any number of people.

At best, we're talking definite maybe on this one.

6) Beltre was a True Dodger.

Yep. Beltre was a home-grown hero. I sure didn't want to lose him. While I will always make the case that fans respond to winning, and that no one would be arguing for Beltre today if the Dodgers had won 91 games without him, I'm not going to criticize someone for wishing a player whose development they invested so much in was not let go. I think one can contend that in a year where he was so key to the team's 2004 success, and so young, and by most accounts so likeable, that DePodesta should have been willing even to overpay for him.

Even if you believe in DePodesta, hindsight now allows you to make a big-picture argument that in order to preserve himself as the long-term administrator of a plan to make the Dodgers a perennial World Series contender, he needed to throw a bone to sentiment - whether that meant not trading Paul Lo Duca, re-signing Jose Lima (gulp) or hanging onto Beltre. The team might have still gone 71-91, but perhaps the outrage would not have been so high. That's not my argument, but I can see it.

So ...

There you are, 1) through 6). Was it a mistake to let Beltre go? Man, I think you have to be awfully generous to Beltre to shout "yes" with any confidence. After all that's been said, Beltre was a flop in the first year of his new contract, worse than Drew, worse than Derek Lowe, worse than Brad Penny, certainly worse than Jeff Kent.

He wasn't worse than Jose Valentin - and look, if money is no object, I'll take Beltre 2005 over Valentin 2005 any day. But money is an object.

Within four years, we'll find out emphatically whether letting Beltre go was a mistake or not. I still think there's every possibility he'll return to All-Star status and make us rue the day (or continue to rue the day) that he left. But it pains me to say it that I'm less confident that day will come, and more open to the possibility that we were saved from witnessing a disappointing five years. After all, there was a time when I was not alone in thinking Raul Mondesi was going to the Hall of Fame.

* * *

I am scheduled to be a guest on KSPN-AM 710's "The Big Show" with Steve Mason and guest host Matthew Berry at 3:40 p.m. today (with a possible rerun of my appearance in the 6 p.m. hour). Listen kindly.

Update: The interview has been postponed until approximately 5 p.m.

* * *

Update: Jeff Angus of Management by Baseball has Part 2 of his series on the McCourts and DePodesta.

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Comments (441)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-01 11:25:35
1.   the OZ
Am I the first one to post? Cool. Good luck with the Radio spot.

Also, Christina Karl has an interesting post on the GM shuffle at baseballprospectus.

2005-11-01 11:29:56
2.   dagwich
Continuing from the other thread -- I hope Depo gets the Tampa GM job. From his point of view, it must be a lower pressure situation so he can work on his GM chops some more. Personally, it would give me motivation to become a fan of the DRays and go more often to see their AAA team, the Durham Bulls. The DBAP (Durham Bulls Athletic Park) is about 5 minutes from my house.
2005-11-01 11:30:44
3.   Xeifrank
Nice write up. I will try my hardest to hear the interview. Is there an online listening link for this radio station? Best of luck... vr, Xei
2005-11-01 11:31:45
4.   popup
I am a Dodger fan and a Mariner fan. Right now, given recent events I consider myself more of a Mariner fan. I am sure that if LaSorda right now offered Drew for Beltre the Mariners would say yes in a heartbeat.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-11-01 11:32:12
5.   bigcpa
Jon- are you trying to deal psychologically with the Dodgers front office armageddon by writing about... baseball?! Not a bad idea.
2005-11-01 11:32:57
6.   Xeifrank
2. With $800k going into his bank account each of the next three years and his wife pregnant, if I were Depo I'd just relax for a year or two and concentrate on being a new parent. Whatever he decides to do, I will wish him the best and will be a fan of whatever team he goes to -NL West -Yankees.
vr, Xei
2005-11-01 11:38:28
7.   LAT
Jon, very nice analysis of a debate that has been looming here for nearly a year.

Good luck this afternoon. I will stomach Steve Mason to listen to you. (Actually I don't think I have ever heard your voice. Obviously read and enjoyed your stuff, seen your picture, but never heard your voice.)

2005-11-01 11:46:18
8.   Bob Timmermann
Since Jon and Steve Mason have shared the dais before at a public event, Jon will do OK.

Jon has a voice that sounds like a cross between James Earl Jones and Walter Brennan.

2005-11-01 11:48:19
9.   Dr Love
For years, Beltre's offensive career track has most closely mirrored perhaps the best player of all time not in the Hall of Fame, Ron Santo.

Jon, are you basing this on his B-Ref's Similarity Scores? Because that only measures things like ABs, hits, RBIs, and HRs.

Ron Santo put up a .800+ OPS and above league average OBP four times before he was 26. Beltre put up a .800+ twice and an above league average OBP three times before he was 26. He was clearly a much better hitter than Beltre by the time both were 25.

2005-11-01 11:53:39
10.   Baseballistic Ben
Great write-up of the debate on Beltre. One minor quibble though. I don't think we need 4 years to judge whether it was a mistake to not sign Beltre. That's the kind of ex-post thinking that DePodesta was wise to ignore. Even if you win a trillion dollars by betting your house and your first-born on Duke to beat USC in football, the decision to bet remains a bad one.

As you said, Beltre was going to be expensive and it was unclear whether he was going to live up to the dollar value of his contract. More importantly, DePodesta knew how to assemble pieces that, as a whole, could replace his performance with less risk. That makes letting Beltre leave a great decision whether Beltre hits like Alex Rodriguez for the next decade or not. The process, not the result, should determine whether something is a good decision or not.

2005-11-01 11:55:15
11.   molokai
From BP around late August:
"The silver lining lies in Beltre's defense. Looking at the Mariner DT card team page, we can see that Beltre ranks second on the squad using either FRAR or FRAA. On the strength of this defense, Beltre does have a shot at being a 5 win player this year. But so what?

Calculating Beltre's Marginal Revenue Product (MRP), we see that his current 3.4 WARP1 total equals $7.28 million in value, and if he does indeed finish as a five win player, the M's still will not be getting the best bang for their buck. Beltre's average annual value equals $12.8 million, and it is unlikely he will be worth that much in 2005. To make matters worse, it was generally perceived that the M's got a bargain because they jumped on the Beltre bandwagon so quickly. "

Considering how closely we all followed the Beltre situation I don't recall anyone saying that they believed the Mariners got a bargain.

I still expect Beltre to bounce back and improve on those 2005 numbers and I'll be surprised if he is not worth 10-12 Million per year over the next few years. He put it all together in August of this year and I expect him to do that for several more months next year instead of just one. I would have no problem placing a bet that Beltre will be worth more then JD Drew over the next 4 years.

2005-11-01 11:55:50
12.   Jon Weisman
The similarity scores seem to measure offense pretty comprehensively.

http://www.baseballreference.com/about/similarity.shtml

I'm not trying to say that Beltre is Santo's literal equal.

2005-11-01 11:59:52
13.   Jon Weisman
10 - "Even if you win a trillion dollars by betting your house and your first-born on Duke to beat USC in football, the decision to bet remains a bad one."

Unless you had objective reason to believe that Duke was going to win - that it wasn't a gamble.

But again, we're quibbling. We certainly will know plenty before 2009; we just won't know it all.

2005-11-01 12:01:55
14.   student of the game
ESPNnews accounced that the Dodgers have contacted Theo Epstein.
2005-11-01 12:02:41
15.   Bob Timmermann
14

Slow down with your typing there....

2005-11-01 12:04:22
16.   student of the game
15 sorry, new computer...
2005-11-01 12:04:48
17.   Dr Love
He put it all together in August of this year and I expect him to do that for several more months next year instead of just one

Beltre has ALWAYS hit better in the second half. Every year. August was his best month in 2005, 2004, 2003, and 2002. I wouldn't read into it.

2005-11-01 12:06:38
18.   Jon Weisman
16 - Ah, - blaming the computers - where have I seen that before? :)
2005-11-01 12:08:29
19.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
I have been fuming the past several days (even wrote a tirade to the LATimes Sports Editor), and one of my fuming thoughts has been abject fear.

Fear: Beltre (whom I also was quite fond of, long longing for his 2004 breakout and soooo very joyful with how much more he presented himself to be that season) might perform so well next year that the critics of DePodesta rub salt into the wounds by claiming more so-called evidence that DePodesta made a mistake.

Jon: consider evaluating the fate of Paul LoDuca, the other long-lamented departee... It might do us all good to re-evaluate the major decisions made along the way to reassure us that the reasons for DePodesta's departure were not based upon rational examination of his decisions, but other things.

(Such as his ability to communicate, manage a major change effort, etc.)

2005-11-01 12:08:57
20.   Kayaker7
1 There something sexy about a woman who can write so eloquently about baseball. This phrase makes me blush for some reason:

"have to have plenty of Blistex on hand to keep the Bossling happy"

2005-11-01 12:09:42
21.   Ben P
Good analysis on Beltre, John. It has been bizarre of late to read willfully ignorant arguments about how they should have kept him (despite his horrid stats this year) AND the annoying argument that the Dodgers "should have known" Drew would get hit on the wrist by a fastball.

As for Theo Epstein, I would love to see Plaschke's reaction if we signed him. On one hand, he's a young "computer-worshipping nerd." On the other hand, he's won a World Series. Plaschke might self-destruct.

2005-11-01 12:10:22
22.   Dr Love
The similarity scores seem to measure offense pretty comprehensively.

The measure counting stats pretty well. But when you compare the two side by side, they're not very good comps:

Age 20-25 seasons, OPS/OPS+:

Beltre: 780/100, 835/116, 720/93, 729/98, 714/89, 1017/163
Santo: 720/97, 842/121, 659/74, 820/129, 962/164, 888/146

5 times Beltre was at or below league average OPS, Santo only twice.

2005-11-01 12:10:28
23.   molokai
And while the comparisons to Santo might be valid it is fairly certain that Santo never subscribed to steriods while with Beltre we have the red flag because of the 2004 aberration. No one likes to talk about steriods here but you can't sweep the gorilla under the carpet. Until Beltre can come close to what he did in 2004 while being tested for steroids I will always wonder.
2005-11-01 12:14:16
24.   Bob Timmermann
20

So who's going to tell him?

2005-11-01 12:14:23
25.   Dr Love
Until Beltre can come close to what he did in 2004 while being tested for steroids I will always wonder.

Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

2005-11-01 12:14:28
26.   Kayaker7
23 As a long time weightlifter, by my experience eye, Gagne was juicing 2003-2004. I would not be surprised if he never hits 98 MPH on his fastball. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
2005-11-01 12:19:46
27.   Vishal
[26] got any specific indicators, or do we just have to take the word of your eye?
2005-11-01 12:19:49
28.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
It's a shame DePo didn't get the credit for the players he DIDN'T sign to the same degree he got ripped for the ones he DID sign. His refusal to sign Beltre, Finley and others to big contracts will have the Dodgers in a stronger position for years, and his successor will reap the benefits.

It seems to me this is one way a Sabermetric GM will distinguish himself over his traditional counterparts: He will have sophisticated metrics that help him decide what to do about an enigma such as Beltre. He won't always be right, but maybe he'll be right more often. And he'll NEVER give Christian Guzman more than pocket change.

2005-11-01 12:23:13
29.   natepurcell
jon, if you havent gone on yet, can you mention a couple of things:

1- the dodger thoughts blog community will rally with pitchforks and fire about mccourts home if he hires bowden
2- get the public to realize how good our farm system is and not to let the new GM blow our future just to win an extra 5 games now. THE JACKSONVILLE DYNASTY WILL ARRIVE SOON!
3- endorse epstein!

2005-11-01 12:25:58
30.   molokai
09-15-05
Drew is going to undergo surgery for his right shoulder and right wrist on Tuesday, but not the broken left wrist that put him on the DL to begin with, the LA Times reports. "There were things we knew we were going to do over the off-season," GM Paul DePodesta said of the shoulder, referring to it as an "arthritic condition." Drew won't have surgery on his left wrist unless the bone chip there is still bothering him a month from now.
2005-11-01 12:26:48
31.   natepurcell
one more thing, can someone tape jons interview and put it online. thanks in advance.
2005-11-01 12:27:22
32.   natepurcell
what was wrong with drews right wrist?
2005-11-01 12:30:26
33.   Kayaker7
26 He just got hulking big in a very short period of time. No highly trained athlete can gain that kind of muscular mass in one short off-season. The only possible way to achieve that is for a sedentary person, who has good genetic potential for muscular gains, to be put on a strict diet and exercise. A de-trained athlete getting back to previous levels of muscle mass can also gain quickly.

Secondly, he was thowing the ball much harder than he ever did before. He never threw 98 before. He was in the 93-94 range as a starter. It is widely said that steroids will put 3-4 mph on the fastball. I don't buy the notion that he was pacing himself when he was a starter. You'd think he would have thrown his hardest at least once or twice, as a starter.

Like I said, no hard proof. But if he never hits high 90's on his fastball again, I'd wonder why. The fact that Dr. Jobe found his elbow ligament to be 100% intact would mean that there is no physical limitation from Gagne from getting back to his old self. If anything, with all the rest he's getting, he should come back fresher.

2005-11-01 12:30:37
34.   molokai
25
Being a roto player, I have to take into account the numbers and how steriod testing was going to change them. I'll be going to a conference on Friday in Arizona that is going to address this in detail. I'm looking forward to the information.
2005-11-01 12:31:53
35.   molokai
33
Been alot of starters who converted to relief who were able to add several MPH to their fastball once they were able to air it out on every pitch and not pace themselves.
2005-11-01 12:34:03
36.   molokai
30
That was my point Nate. Something is always wrong somewhere, it wasn't just the broken left wrist this year as everyone likes to believe. He could just as easily been benched by the chronic shoulder problem, the right wrist, the surgically repaired knee. Who knows.
2005-11-01 12:35:53
37.   natepurcell
to add to 33

broxton was throwing in the low 90s starting at the beginning of the year. made the switch to the bullpen, and his velocity reguarly spiked to the mid to high 90s.

i think it has to do with the ability to just let it fly for one inning and not worrying about retaining the stamina throughout the whole game.

personally, what made gagne so great was not his fb velocity, but the development of one of the best change ups i have ever seen.

2005-11-01 12:36:29
38.   Rick
If anyone is able to transcribe Jon's radio journeys today I would love to get a copy. I won't be able to hear the spot.

Good luck with it Jon.

2005-11-01 12:37:18
39.   natepurcell
That was my point Nate. Something is always wrong somewhere, it wasn't just the broken left wrist this year as everyone likes to believe. He could just as easily been benched by the chronic shoulder problem, the right wrist, the surgically repaired knee. Who knows.

well we have 4 more years to find out if he can have one fully healthy season. yay!

2005-11-01 12:38:51
40.   Kayaker7
35 So, Penny should be able to hit 100, if he became a reliever? Why couldn't Gagne hit 98 before he hurt his knee and elbow?

There is nothing like indisputable proof, just a pattern that I see.

2005-11-01 12:39:07
41.   Vishal
[33] as molokai said, there are plenty of examples of starters throwing a few MPH harder when they come out of the bullpen. in fact, i think that happened to broxton just this year.

[36] but the fact is that until he got pegged by the fastball, he was in the lineup and he was very productive. so it seems pretty apparent that those other injuries weren't limiting him much.

2005-11-01 12:41:12
42.   fawnkyj
Jon-

You have to let those guys at 710 know how awful Bowden is and mention how bad of a signing Crisitan Guzman was. Tell him Jon PLEASSEEE!!!!!

2005-11-01 12:41:38
43.   natepurcell
i am getting impatient. i want to know who our new GM is like, right now.
2005-11-01 12:41:48
44.   student of the game
Is Woody Page a writer for any paper? ESPNnews said that "Woody Page reported on Cold Pizza..." that the Dodgers have contacted Epstein. Is he an LA or Boston reporter?
2005-11-01 12:43:45
45.   Kayaker7
43 He is 78 years old, Italian, with gray hair. ;-)
2005-11-01 12:43:53
46.   natepurcell
woody paige writes for the denver newspaper i think.

he is always on around the horn. he is halarious, but i dont know how he would know...

2005-11-01 12:45:40
47.   Humma Kavula
thought it was the dallas morning news...
2005-11-01 12:46:15
48.   Humma Kavula
...nope, denver post, I'm an idiot.
2005-11-01 12:50:23
49.   natepurcell
I dont really listen to woody paiges opinions, but the only reason i watch around the horn is because he is on it. hes one funny guy.
2005-11-01 12:53:39
50.   molokai
36
He was only productive in June. Everyone seems to have forgotten how mediocre his April and May were. I think Karros and Beltre told him about the Dodger way, which in their case was to use April and May to get ready for the hot weather.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-01 12:53:46
51.   Jesse
jim colborn is friends with a lot of people in ventura, where i'm from, and I heard from a source, that had heard from colby, that he (colborn) had told gagne that the national league mvp and cy young award winners were on steroids in 2003. He was also worried that gagne was going to get hurt as a result.

Take it with a grain of salt and please don't stone me over it. It's just something I heard.

2005-11-01 13:00:45
52.   Dr Love
Is everybody getting geared up to see "Good Night and Good Luck" by enacting their own brand of McCarthyism with steroids? This is ridiculous. I would think that people here would be smart enough to not blindly speculate on who is using PEDs.
2005-11-01 13:05:40
53.   Xeifrank
33. I thought that Gagne had some dietary or illness problem that affected his weight???

Good luck Jon, Mason can be a real @@@-hole at times and will most likely take some cheap shots at Depo. I also hope you can make some good plugs for the DT blog, Theo and the sabermetric ship o fools. I will try to find an online link to listen. :)
vr, Xei

2005-11-01 13:05:57
54.   Steve
Jim Bowden uses steroids and needs a long, long suspension of twenty five years.
2005-11-01 13:06:21
55.   Kayaker7
52 As for me personally, I don't think steroids are a huge public health menace. A lot of bodybuilders from the 60's and 70's are still around to live to live to a ripe old age. One even became a governor of a state. Used judiciously, under a physicians care, it can improve athletic performance far beyong what can be achieved naturally. That said, it is cheating and unethical if the rules fobid its use...which baseball did not explicitly do until recently.

My take: Let everyone use it, or don't let anyone use it.

2005-11-01 13:08:16
56.   dzzrtRatt
Something bugs me about steroid speculation. The players (and their union) brought it on themselves, but still, until any of these players show results from peeing in a cup, I'd prefer not to read any more long-distance diagnoses, here or anywhere else.

In considering Beltre, one possible reason for his decline was just plain jitters. A lot of players, especially young guys, start pressing when they get their first big contract, whether with their old team or a new one. Has anyone tracked how many pitches Beltre took per AB compared with '04? That might be one indicator. Another is where he hit the ball--pulling everything again?

2005-11-01 13:08:55
57.   Kayaker7
53 Just like the one that Ivan Rodriguez had over this past off-season, and the same one that Barry Bonds will have this off-season? Oh, I forgot, Barry said he will consciously lose weight to reduce load on his surgically repaired knee.

For those who say, "Where is the indisputable proof?" I say, "Fair enough." 'Nuff said on the subject.

2005-11-01 13:11:52
58.   molokai
54
I'd rather Jimmy stayed clean so he can continue to mess up the Nationals and trade us Wilkerson and Patterson. I no longer fear that Jimmy Bowden will become our GM. If it is so then all those chicken littles will have been proven right and I'll just have to find something else to do other then drive myself crazy over the state of the Dodgers.
2005-11-01 13:13:18
59.   dzzrtRatt
so...is there anything good to say about Bowden, since it appears Lasorda is hell-bent to get that guy an address on Elysian Park? Other than the fact that he makes it a regular practice to kiss Tommy's rear in Macy's window the day after Thanksgiving, why do his advocates advocate for him?
2005-11-01 13:18:33
60.   capdodger
53 I think you can find more about his condition here:
http://tinyurl.com/78y6r
2005-11-01 13:18:38
61.   Xeifrank
I couldn't find a Live online link at espnradio710 dot com. What a bummer, many other radio stations have a link on their webpage so you can listen to the radio station on the internet. If anyone can find a link to listen to Jon's interview, please post it!

There is an interesting article at Mike's Baseball Rants called 'Saber-Rattled', which is mostly about Theo Epstein but in the first paragraph it mentions Depodesta getting fired, and rightly so. There was no explaining as to why the author thought he should've been fired.
vr, Xei

2005-11-01 13:18:49
62.   Dr Love
I don't think steroids are a huge public health menace.

I don't either. But it's absurd to just start naming people you think take them because they look like they might take them.

Has anyone tracked how many pitches Beltre took per AB compared with '04? That might be one indicator.

It isn't that.

2005 P/PA: 3.96
2004 P/PA: 3.75

I think it's pretty clear that Beltre had a fluke season.

2005-11-01 13:19:03
63.   Bob Timmermann
As pointed out in the previous thread (or it may have been this one), someone mentioned that Tony Jackson of the Daily News wrote that Bowden was not considered a serious candidate.
2005-11-01 13:19:42
64.   Xeifrank
60. Thanks. But tinyUrl is blocked on the computer I am currently using. vr, Xei
2005-11-01 13:19:55
65.   molokai
Because he sounded good on ESPN much like Steve Philips. That got Bucky Martinez/ Bob Brenly jobs.
2005-11-01 13:21:29
66.   Telemachos
random aside:

Apparently Michael Pillar just died.

Damn, he wasn't that old.

2005-11-01 13:21:50
67.   oldbear
58. I agree. Bowden isnt going to be the Dodgers GM. The McCourts were originally going to stick with DePo until they found out that Theo Epstein would become available. Once they found that out, they needed to fire DePo, but do it in a reasonable way. Enter Tommy Lasorda to spin a "return to the Dodger Way" spin job.

I dont see how this situation is any different than when Joe Dumars fired Rick Carlisle, and replaced him with Larry Brown.

If the best guy is out there, you go get him, no matter if the current guy is doing a good job or not. And I think thats strictly what will happen in this case.

Tommy Lasorda is overrated on this site.

2005-11-01 13:23:21
68.   gvette
65-- Amazingly enough, sounding good on ESPN was enough for even Larry Bowa to get a job.

At least Steve Phillips isn't being mentioned for the GM slot.

2005-11-01 13:25:58
69.   das411
Nobody is paying attention to that live chat over on mlb.com right now?
2005-11-01 13:26:43
70.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers ticket sales people haven't called me back this week. This is the week I WANT to talk to a telemarketer!

Sheesh, I'm like Moe the Bartender.

2005-11-01 13:29:00
71.   Dr Love
The McCourts were originally going to stick with DePo until they found out that Theo Epstein would become available. Once they found that out, they needed to fire DePo, but do it in a reasonable way.

Considering that they fired DePo a day before Epstein backed out of signing a new contract, you have no way of knowing that.

2005-11-01 13:29:21
72.   dzzrtRatt
67 Huh. You