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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Diversion
2005-11-09 22:18
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Sadly, Dodger Thoughts turns into a gossip rag ...

Comments (206)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-09 22:25:21
1.   Bob Timmermann
Oh my God! Eli Wallach has been hospitalized!
2005-11-09 22:40:33
2.   Jon Weisman
That's "The Misfits'" Eli Wallach to you, sir.
2005-11-09 22:47:12
3.   sactofan
A 23 year old Director of Marketing with a degree in astophysics? That is just plain silly. Hardly a professional organization. More of a fiefdom. No wonder the Dodgers are having trouble luring GM candidates.
2005-11-09 22:47:37
4.   Brendan
Astrophysics or Marketing ...Marketing or Astrophysics..

A common choice a young man must make.

2005-11-09 22:51:50
5.   the OZ
3 - It's especially sad considering the number of future MBAs in my grad program that would love the chance to get any job in marketing for a sports team.

People with, you know, high-level marketing experience and education.

2005-11-09 22:55:05
6.   the OZ
Perhaps off-topic, but here's a cut from the Fan Mailbag at the Padres' site talking about how great the Castilla trade is:

" Do you think Castilla will return to his best form and be the offensive answer that we're looking for?
-- Gilberto R., Guadalajara, Mex.

Castilla should feel energized and revitalized in an environment so close to his Mexican roots, knowing he'll be supported by so many new fans. It's not difficult to envision Vinny delivering handsomely both offensively and defensively, while providing leadership with his upbeat attitude and tremendous experience."

2005-11-09 22:58:02
7.   Steve
Just leave the bottle, Mickey. I'll finish it.
2005-11-09 23:08:24
8.   King of the Hobos
What is the point of Simers' new column? I can't tell if he's insulting Ng, or just using her to insult various other people he hates
2005-11-09 23:21:12
9.   Steve
I'd have what Simers is having, but it appears to kill brain cells even faster than your normal hard liquor.
2005-11-09 23:31:05
10.   Bob Timmermann
8

The latter.

2005-11-09 23:36:34
11.   bigcpa
Rumor mill has the Padres looking at Sand Diego native Jacque Jones as a replacement for Brian Giles. This just keeps getting better. Jones, Soriano, Castilla heart of the order.
2005-11-09 23:45:09
12.   kngoworld
I am very surprised you posted this Jon.
2005-11-10 00:02:38
13.   bokonon42
Is L.A. prepared for a G.M. named Ned?

http://tinyurl.com/8qod2

2005-11-10 00:03:34
14.   Keisser
Hey gang ... First, a salute to Ken for the site and to Jon for his Dodger columnm, which are always a good read, and the info here often is Grade A. I didn't know I was being drilled so hard here, but having drilled a few people over the years, I can take it. Just a question, though -- yeah, Beltre, Finley, Green and Lima had bad years, but who's to say they would have had bad years in L.A.? And who's to say they wouldn't still have been an upgrade over the 2005 replacements -- a hole at third, a cancer in center, a gimp in right and D.J. Houlton? My criticism of DePo wasn't his stat use; I defended him at the beginning. My rips were because of the bad decisions he made on bad contracts and evaluating his talent re value (Drew's history, etc). And no, I don't blame Tracy for 91 losses, not with the roster Depo gave him. You win writing the names Phillips, Edwards, Repko into the lineup everyday. Anyway, it's a great site and I enjoy the comments of everyone. Bob T., next time we cross paths, please introduce yourself. Singletonians must stay together (any relation to Tom?) ... Thanks, Bob Keisser, LBPT
2005-11-10 00:07:31
15.   LAT
Jon's link is exactly what I love about this Dodger off-season. Just when you think it can't get any more twisted and effed-up the McCourts toss an unstable, out of control, over the hill, washed-up "actreess" into this saga. What's next? Frank and Courtny Love? Jamie and Billy Bob Thornton?
2005-11-10 00:08:37
16.   bokonon42
Hope Steve went to bed early (from the article linked above):

The Dodgers have offered Milton Bradley to almost every team they've met with and continue to find resistance because of his history…. In potential trades that would require the Dodgers to give up a starting pitcher, they are offering Odalis Perez, according to several officials from other teams…. Texas second baseman Alfonso Soriano, who will be a free agent after next season, has been discussed in Dodger circles, and is available….

2005-11-10 00:13:13
17.   Strike4
Frank probably wishes that Bo Belinsky was available for the g.m. job.
2005-11-10 00:14:20
18.   trainwreck
Wow that article had a lot of information in it. I have heard Coletti being rumored to be GM for years now. I hope he is not the one who did the Joe Nathan trade. I worry about his view on minor leaguers (if it is the same as Sabean). Hard to know how different he is from Sabean, but I trust him more than Hart. I do not think there is a chance Konerko comes here. If Kim and Roy can trade Odalis and get someone worthy in return they need to be put in charge and given extensions. It does look like Nomar could be here. Why would we trade for Soriano when we have Kent? End of ramble.
2005-11-10 00:15:50
19.   trainwreck
Oh yeah and I think I am going to be right in my prediction of us non-tendering Milton.
2005-11-10 00:18:30
20.   bokonon42
Is it only former Dodgers who would be magically better in L.A., or is there a niche market of only-good-in-L.A. players? 'Cuz that could be a goldmine.
2005-11-10 00:21:46
21.   LAT
Before everyone gets Clipper fever and the bandwagon starts to buckle under the new weight, let's remember that the Dodgers started out 12-2 and we all know how that turned out.
2005-11-10 00:25:25
22.   Bob Timmermann
I only hope that this Singletonian gets his check soon. I need that $120! I've got to start taking care of myself in a manner I which to be accustomed to.

The DT zeitgeist now is McCourt-hatred. We've moved away from DePodesta defense. There is also a distinct trend of Bowden-phobia.

2005-11-10 00:28:03
23.   Bob Timmermann
20

The extreme media scrutiny of L.A. is similar to that of New York. It has broken many a player: Carlos Diaz, Ed Vande Berg, Dave Goltz, Mike Blowers, Delino Deshields, Mike Vail.

2005-11-10 00:28:09
24.   Sam DC
Shannen Doherty brings out the pros! (Welcome, Mr. Keisser.)

That Doherty article also authoritatively reports that Theo Epstein is "negotiating" for the Nationals job. Negotiating with who is a bit unclear, for obvious reasons I suppose. High on my list of things that I would have bet would not happen this offseason -- the mighty Red Sox and the lowly Nationals swapping GMs. Maybe next they'll swap left fielders . . . (oh wait, the Nationals don't actually have a left fielder . . .)

(and yes, I'm up at 3:00 am with a won't-sleep-baby)

2005-11-10 00:29:00
25.   trainwreck
If a week from now we still have no GM they can hire Jaime McCourt for GM for all I care. I am already getting sick of this and just want them to name someone.
2005-11-10 00:32:00
26.   Bob Timmermann
Tony Jackson says don't expect anything soon:

http://tinyurl.com/9bseb

2005-11-10 00:33:40
27.   natepurcell
ha, was that really Bob Keisser that posted?

i dont believe it. Bob, if thats you, post pics.

only kidding. anyways, a package of bradley and odalis can surely net us Manram... right?.... no? well how about alex cora? we need to bring "the dodger way" back to the ravine.

2005-11-10 00:34:41
28.   Sam DC
Dodger owner Frank McCourt fired general manager Paul DePodesta on Oct. 29, after what McCourt perceived to be a botched manager search.

Has it been reported like that before? At least that makes sense vis-a-vis the timing and the oddity of letting go first Tracy then later DePodesta.

2005-11-10 00:37:34
29.   bokonon42
Zeitgeist be damned, I'll bravely defend DePo at half past midnight. Beltre was not good last year, but he was better than what the Dodgers managed at third. Green would have been very usefull, given what happened to the outfielders, and the Navarro return, for last year, wasn't enought to overcome that usefullness. Check back on that trade in five years, though, and I bet it comes out the other way. Plus, in division rival gets to keep paying him eight figures for how many years? Finley was awful. Grabowski would have been a better option than Steve Finley, much less Bradley. Lima over Houlton? You'd have to be crazy.
2005-11-10 00:39:39
30.   bokonon42
Quick questiom, does it help or hurt my case that I was able to misspell useful twice?
2005-11-10 00:41:24
31.   Bob Timmermann
Should we mention your use of the word "questiom"?
2005-11-10 00:41:39
32.   natepurcell
yeah, Beltre, Finley, Green and Lima had bad years, but who's to say they would have had bad years in L.A.? And who's to say they wouldn't still have been an upgrade over the 2005 replacements

i love these what if/hypothetical arguments.

for beltre, look at his yearly averages, which year sticks out the most that shouldnt belong there? the fact is, his 2005 yr was more in line with his career than his 2004 year.

for finley, even if he did play better if was still in LA, he was incredibly bad in anaheim that even if he was better in LA, he still would have been terrible. we ditched finley just in time. his 2004 run with the dodgers was his last horrah, and it went out with a bang with that GS.

for green, it wasnt that he had a bad year, he had a decent year, but would that year be worth 17 mil as a dodger? Add in the fact that presumely, he would have hit worse with half of his home games in DS than the BOB, he would have not come close to earning that 17 mil. Also, we seemed to acquire a very good young catcher for him so its hard to see the fallacy in that move, even in hindsight.

annd for lima, well, he was the worst pitcher in all of baseball last year. DJ houlton> jose lima last yr and probably for every year in the future now.

2005-11-10 00:41:41
33.   bokonon42
Oh jeez. Time for bed.
2005-11-10 00:45:03
34.   natepurcell
ha, that was a decent tag team by bokonon and I.

PS: hey Bob, maybe you can do a piece on some of our highly rated prospects. You know, inform the general public that it would be quite foolish to trade andy laroche and chad billingsley for jim thome, or todd helton, or adrian beltre.... or any other overpaid "superstar"

it would really help out our cause.

2005-11-10 00:47:02
35.   trainwreck
I have no idea why anyone would want Jim Thome unless they got rid of a horrible contract and pay him a pittance.
2005-11-10 00:48:16
36.   Bob Timmermann
I think Jim Thome has learned to do balloon animals during his rehab so he can be used to entertain small children in the seats.
2005-11-10 00:50:30
37.   bokonon42
34- We spoke truth to power.

Actually, Mr. Keisser, since you're here anyway, I've been thinking of hiring a personal copy editor. Any idea how much would that run?

2005-11-10 00:52:55
38.   Sam DC
Anyone looking for work? Rob's got a help wanted ad that several here could well fill.

Speaking of which (which being job seekers) -- am I right in having the impression that Icaros has been awol for a while? Or is it just that the sleep deprivation makes things not seem funny.

Others who I don't recall around much lately: Suffering Bruin, Humma Kavula, Christina, Jim Hitchcock (maybe wrong about that). And isn't Doug Fearing supposed to revivify at some point?

2005-11-10 00:56:03
39.   Bob Timmermann
Icaros is in the process of moving. Jim Hitchcock's computer died. Mr. Fearing is taking classes at MIT and when I talked to him in Toronto, I believe he was in the School of Really Complicated Stuff.
2005-11-10 00:56:13
40.   fanerman
Yeah... where is Fearing Blue? He was also a voice of reason.
2005-11-10 00:58:04
41.   Sam DC
Wow Bob. It's like these are actually people to you.
2005-11-10 01:00:34
42.   Sam DC
Child sleeps -- I go sleep. I'm glad I got to use the word revivify tonight.
2005-11-10 01:17:28
43.   bokonon42
That twenty minutes have passed since I requested the copy editor pay scale from Mr. Keisser without getting a response, I'm taking as another MSM slap in the face to the common man. Who doesn't subscribe to his paper. And hasn't ever read it. Mary Mapes would be proud, sir!

The google site search dealy returned two recent instances of Mr. Keisser's getting drilled. I'd pit the McCourt hatred generated by posters here against that of any other 169+ group of people, but your crack about Jamie McCourt's dress size rankled.

The hoping that DePo land on his mousepad with a job at Haliburton jibe was similarly recieved. My question about that line is: wouldn't it have been funnier if you'd used Enron? They were the ones stealing money with computers, right? Haliburton is just war profiteering. Are they using computers to do it?

2005-11-10 03:33:02
44.   Thomas Naccarato
If it is indeed you Mr. Keisser, welcome to the pack. Notre Dame rocks.

I wonder if Shannen D. truely realizes who she is getting involved with.....

2005-11-10 05:03:04
45.   John A
Is anybody still reporting that McCourt is trying to talk to Theo Epstein?
There's no way Theo is crazy enough to work for the Dodgers right now.

Frank McCourt, if Theo Epstein really is talking to you right now, he's just playing you. Like a three-card monte dealer playing a New York tourist, or Ahmed Chalabi playing Paul Wolfowitz.

2005-11-10 06:18:41
46.   Penarol1916
44. Why would the 3rd best Catholic school in America rock?
2005-11-10 06:34:51
47.   Vishal
mr. keisser, i'm glad you posted here, and i hope that you will continue to do so in the future. it's nice to be able to have some interaction with a columnist, because otherwise it's only a 1-way discourse, which is frustrating when you don't agree.

anyway, i'd like to address some of the things you said, and while you're entitled to your opinion, i've gotta take issue with some of it:

Just a question, though -- yeah, Beltre, Finley, Green and Lima had bad years, but who's to say they would have had bad years in L.A.?

who's to say they would have had good years? is that they would not. i don't see any basis for the belief that the dodger uniform has magical properties that make players play better than they normally would have, though i sincerely wish that were the case. beltre had many bad years in a dodger uniform, and in seattle he seems to have reverted to those bad habits (like swinging at the garbage slider low and outside that hurt to swing at last year because of his bone spurs). finley is 40 years old and was a dodger for like 2 months; why would his bad season have anything to do with not being a dodger? green was mediocre and totally not worth the money, and dioner navarro will be much more valuable than he will over the next few years. jose lima was the worst pitcher in baseball, and i'm not exaggerating to say that. we were very lucky he was good last year, but how many times in a row can you catch lightning in a bottle? the fact is that he would have netted more money in arbitration than he was nearly worth, so he had to be let go. your fallacious hypothetical reasons just don't hold water.

And who's to say they wouldn't still have been an upgrade over the 2005 replacements -- a hole at third

the dodgers' revolving door at third base was actually MORE productive than adrian beltre, who cost $17 million this year. how come nobody gives the mariners flak over their "hole at third"?

a cancer in center
does the whole team hate bradley or just kent, i wonder. i remember bradley being a force of enthusiasm and team pride in the first part of the season. i'm not going to say any more though. i really like milton and i feel bad that he's said and done what he has.

a gimp in right
a gimp who was the best hitter on the team until he took a fastball to the wrist. but of course if you knew he had surgically repaired knees, then OBVIOUSLY he was going to get his wrist broken with a fastball. why couldn't depodesta see that??? duh! the connection is clear.

and D.J. Houlton?
one of the better rule-5 picks in recent memory, if you ask me. he was good to have around. better and cheaper than lima, anyway.

and finally...

You win writing the names Phillips, Edwards, Repko into the lineup everyday.

look, i'm sorry, but no. no you don't. absolutely not. and in fact, jim tracy put those guys in the lineup every day. and they lost. a lot. phillips is an okay, unremarkable but passable catcher, but at first base he is a sinkhole. terrible defensively and not good enough offensively. why was choi not playing first base every day, to get him regular at-bats and see if he can possibly live up to his potential? with everyone else but kent injured, choi was the only remaining power threat on the team. the only possible rationale: jim tracy didn't like him. i think a lot of us have come to the conclusion that his treatment of choi, among other things, is evidence of tracy's insubordination. depodesta should have fired him a lot sooner than he did. edwards is not a third baseman. and he's not a left-fielder either. and repko, well, at least he's fast.

2005-11-10 06:35:13
48.   D4P
28
Yeah, this is what I have suspected all along. It was the only explanation that really makes sense given the timing. Maybe Depo refused to meet in person with Orel, having already decided that (e.g. Collins) was his choice for new manager. Maybe Depo's refusal to meet upset Tommy and McCourt, enough for McCourt to drop the hammer down.
2005-11-10 06:36:34
49.   Vishal
er, "is that they would not" was supposed to read, "the only rational bases for judgment are their performances, which suggests that they would not".
2005-11-10 06:37:05
50.   Vishal
*suggest. damn typos!
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-10 06:39:13
51.   RELX
I thought this was priceless from Simer's column, "Chass also reported that Camille Johnston, Gore's former press aide, "urged" him not to write about the Dodgers until he had spoken to McCourt. McCourt, however, didn't return his calls." Is there a better example than this of the current state of the Dodgers?

Also--has anyone noticed that they have yet to hire Hershisher? I wonder if he too is having second thoughts?

2005-11-10 06:39:55
52.   D4P
47
I had thought someone might misinterpret "You win writing the names Phillips, Edwards, Repko into the lineup everyday."

He didn't mean "The way to go about winning is to write the names...into the lineup." He meant "I challenge YOU to try to win with those names in the lineup." In other words, he wasn't blaming Tracy for the 91-loss season: he was blaming the roster, which included those hacks. HOWEVER, his argument ignores the fact that Tracy intentionally wrote those guys into the lineup instead of guys who many people thought were superior (e.g. Choi and Perez).

2005-11-10 06:57:57
53.   Sam DC
47, 52 I read the comment as D4P did (and agree with his observation as well).
2005-11-10 06:58:14
54.   Vishal
[52] ah, i guess he might have meant it that way. but my point still stands, i think, because like you said, tracy didn't have to write those guys in; he had better options that he did not use. the fact that he wrote them in anyway is either 1) incompetence or 2) insubordination/sabotage
2005-11-10 07:01:02
55.   D4P
54

Or

3) Man love

2005-11-10 07:24:16
56.   Sam DC
What I like about the Boston Herald story is the potential opportunity at some point in the future to explain to a complaining-about-taking-physics son that, if he does well, he can beat out Superhero quarterbacks for the company of beautiful starlets and will also get to run a pro baseball team.

(And then I have to flee before he says, but, uh, Dad, didn't you leave out the part about having a successful father with boatloads of money?)

2005-11-10 07:25:02
57.   Sam DC
56 On further thought, should read successful "parents".
2005-11-10 07:34:02
58.   Warren
At least we're not the running joke of the league.
2005-11-10 07:47:21
59.   Penarol1916
58. We're not?
2005-11-10 07:52:52
60.   Colorado Blue
58 - Uh, there are people here in Denver who don't even follow baseball who have asked me "what's up with your Dodgers?" The fact that the Dodgers have supplanted the Rockies as the subject of many a head scratch leads me to believe that we are the running joke of the league.
2005-11-10 07:55:45
61.   D4P
59,60
I thought Warren was being sarcastic.
2005-11-10 07:57:52
62.   Colorado Blue
61 - You're probably right... my cyber-sensors probably need adjusting.
2005-11-10 08:00:29
63.   Ben H
"According to published reports from Japan where he's managing, Valentine and the media are fighting, which tells me he's in training to deal with Plaschke and become the next Dodger manager."

I found this comment from Simers rather entertaining. I guess even he can appreciate what a pain in the behind Plaschke is, which is saying something.

2005-11-10 08:00:35
64.   Colorado Blue
Given all the attention Ng has received as possible GM, I was wondering where Roy Smith fits in. I know nothing about him. Is he a subordinate to Ng? Does he have the credentials to be GM? I guess not since I haven't heard his name mentioned other than in regards to co-representing the Dodgers at the GM meetings.
2005-11-10 08:29:07
65.   Steve
And now I'm seeing dancing elephants.
2005-11-10 08:42:55
66.   molokai
Part of this is misleading because Delgado only earned 4 million in 2005 but his salary jumps in 2006 and beyond. Beltre pulled in 17 million because of the 6 mill bonus. From this point on he is making 11 million. The article was trying to show who was the best signing but since the salaries fluctuate from year to year I don't think it is black and white that Delgado was the best deal. If you consider the length of Jeff Kent's deal I think it would be a passable arguement that our fired GM had the best position free agent signing. Florida is going to be on the hook for Delgado long after he's worth the contract.
If you were to combine the Dodgers we lost (Finley, Beltre) and the Dodgers we signed(JD, OP, Valentin) other then Kent it is clear that Dodgers coming and going were crap in 2005 relative to the salary they received.
FYI - Vinny Castilla was not nearly as bad a signing as we have made him out to be compared to others on this list. At least he had a positive return.

From BP:
2005 Salary
Player Team (millions) WARP Value Net
Carlos Delgado FLO $ 4.00 6.7 12.25 8.25
Roger Clemens HOU $18.00 10.2 26.24 8.24
Placido Polanco PHI $ 4.60 6.6 11.92 7.32
Richie Sexson SEA $ 4.50 6.5 11.60 7.10
Jeff Kent LAN $ 8.00 7.4 14.63 6.63
Bob Wickman CLE $ 2.75 5.6 8.93 6.18
Esteban Loaiza WAS $ 2.90 5.1 7.59 4.69
Kevin Millwood CLE $ 7.00 6.3 10.98 3.98
Paul Byrd ANA $ 5.00 5.3 8.11 3.11
Omar Vizquel SFN $ 4.60 5.1 7.59 2.99
Jermaine Dye CHA $ 4.00 4.6 6.35 2.35
Pedro Martinez NYN $13.55 7.7 15.71 2.16
Vinny Castilla WAS $ 3.00 4.0 5.01 2.01
Jeromy Burnitz CHN $ 5.00 4.6 6.35 1.35
Jon Lieber PHI $ 6.25 4.9 7.08 0.83
Derek Lowe LAN $ 7.50 5.2 7.85 0.35
Orlando Cabrera ANA $ 5.00 4.1 5.23 0.23
Matt Morris SLN $ 2.50 2.7 2.64 0.14
Matt Clement BOS $ 6.58 4.6 6.35 -0.23
Juan Gonzalez CLE $ 0.60 0.0 0.00 -0.60
Moises Alou SFN $ 7.25 4.7 6.59 -0.66
Troy Glaus ARI $ 8.25 5.0 7.33 -0.92
Steve Kline BAL $ 2.50 1.6 1.19 -1.31
Odalis Perez LAN $ 3.00 2.0 1.66 -1.34
Orlando Hernandez CHA $ 3.50 2.3 2.05 -1.45
Tony Womack NYA $ 2.00 0.7 0.39 -1.61
David Wells BOS $ 9.00 5.0 7.33 -1.67
Brad Radke MIN $ 9.00 5.0 7.33 -1.67
Kris Benson NYN $ 7.00 4.1 5.23 -1.77
Jose Lima KCA $ 2.50 0.5 0.25 -2.25
Jason Varitek BOS $13.20 6.2 10.67 -2.53
Armando Benitez SFN $ 4.10 1.4 0.98 -3.12
Jose Valentin LAN $ 3.50 0.2 0.09 -3.41
Corey Koskie TOR $ 5.50 2.3 2.05 -3.45
Paul Wilson CIN $ 3.60 -0.4 -0.13 -3.73
Cristian Guzman WAS $ 4.20 -0.2 -0.07 -4.27
Richard Hidalgo TEX $ 5.00 0.7 0.39 -4.61
Steve Finley ANA $ 6.00 1.1 0.70 -5.30
J.D. Drew LAN $11.00 4.3 5.66 -5.34
Troy Percival DET $ 6.00 0.6 0.32 -5.68
Jaret Wright NYA $ 7.00 0.1 0.04 -6.96
Nomar Garciaparra CHN $ 8.25 0.9 0.53 -7.72
Eric Milton CIN $ 8.00 0.3 0.14 -7.86
Carl Pavano NYA $ 9.00 0.9 0.53 -8.47
Edgar Renteria BOS $11.00 1.8 1.41 -9.59
Carlos Beltran NYN $17.10 5.0 7.33 -9.77
Russ Ortiz ARI $10.00 0.4 0.20 -9.80
Magglio Ordonez DET $12.00 2.3 2.05 -9.95
Adrian Beltre SEA $17.00 4.1 5.23 -11.77

2005-11-10 08:44:06
67.   Colorado Blue
65 - Yes, but are they pink?
2005-11-10 08:52:00
68.   molokai
I'd be happy to have the brains to be an astrosomething and then have Doherty in any capacity. Still not sure why Jon put that in the blog. Is DT becoming a gossip rag? I can get that stuff from Aaron Gleeman if I want it.
I was bragging all week in Arizona about how DT was the best baseball blog with the best writer. Hopefully they skip today if they came to check it out.
2005-11-10 08:54:16
69.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Bob K, it was good to see you post here, if that was really you. I'm a former colleague from the PT's sports department, if only briefly circa 1991-92.

Still, I can't let you off the hook. Why can't you give DePo a little CREDIT for the non-signings he made, instead of trying to make them into an argument against him? One of the great uses of that laptop you and others bludgeoned him with is that it can help you, to some extent, predict what a player will do in upcoming years. The fact that he didnt' keep Beltre/Lima/Finley/Green has put the Dodgers in a LOT better position for '06.

And you mention bad contracts, so I'm assuming that refers to Lowe, Perez and Drew? Seems to me EVERYONE overpaid for pitching last winter, so the first two were just the going rate. Would we have been better off without those guys? (With Odalis, maybe the answer is "yes," but I can't believe he's got nothing left.)

2005-11-10 08:55:36
70.   Bob Timmermann
But the Shannen Doherty news bit seemed too bizarre to pass up. It's emblematic of what's going wrong in the House of McCourt.

If Jon had a real gossip rag, we'd be discussing the "scandal" involving the Carolina Panthers cheerleaders.

Now that's prurient!

2005-11-10 08:59:29
71.   blue22
66 - What is "WARP"? What factors does it include?
2005-11-10 08:59:43
72.   dzzrtRatt
Can we hire Bob Keisser as our new GM? Mr. Keisser, can you call the McCourts and apply? Your "who's to say" theory of predicting player performance would serve us well in negotiating trades.

If Walt Jocketty thinks Jason Phillips for Albert Pujols is a one-sided deal, you can just blow him away with that "who's to say" analysis: "Yeah Jason Phillips had a bad year, but who's to say he would have had a bad year in St. Louis?"

Using "who's to say," a GM would have no problem getting good PR for the McCourts.

Q: Bob, you dealt Brad Penny for Sean Burroughs. Penny's you're best pitcher, Burroughs is such a flop the Padres just traded for Vinny Castilla. How do you justify that deal?

A: Easy. Who's to say Burroughs wouldn't have hit 50 home runs for Los Angeles last year? And sure, Penny did fine for the Dodgers, but who's to say he won't stink up the joint in San Diego? According to Who's-to-say-bernomics, I think Burroughs is due for a breakout season and Penny is going into the dumper. It's gonna be the most one-sided deal in our favor in Dodger history!

Q: Indeed!

2005-11-10 09:00:21
73.   Penarol1916
68. Oh please, you want nothing but pure hardcore baseball analysis with no look at the lighter side so that you don't look like an idiot to some random people in Arizona?
2005-11-10 09:00:53
74.   Steve
72 -- And yet I keep coming back. And this is why.
2005-11-10 09:14:06
75.   D4P
72
I thought it was "Who's-to-say-bermetrics"
2005-11-10 09:16:14
76.   underdog
51. The thing about that Chass NYT column that Simers refers to (and what is it about bad sports writers that they quote from each other as ways to prove each other's misguided 'points') was the line at the end about how the thing the Dodgers could do to set things back on the right course would be to... hire Bowden as GM.

[cut to: image of reader tossing newspaper out the window, with glass SHATTERING FX a la David Letterman]

2005-11-10 09:16:14
77.   Jon Weisman
70 - "the Shannen Doherty news bit seemed too bizarre to pass up"

This pretty much nails it. And the style of the writing was so over the top. And I thought learning that Drew was an astrophysics major was interesting.

I don't think I devalued Dodger Thoughts by making the link, but don't worry, it's not the start of a trend. I do apologize if anyone feels offended - I really do.

Frankly, speaking of idle gossip, I almost feel worse about yesterday's Beltre post.

2005-11-10 09:17:20
78.   dzzrtRatt
70 I have no problem with Jon linking to the Shannon Doherty item (as did 6-4-2)! If you were writing a novel about the McCourts takeover of the Dodgers, you couldn't pass up such a telling detail. Kid comes here from out of town, his parents buy the big baseball team in LA, he's thinking "I'm going to date sexy movie stars!" And he gets bamboozled into hooking up with an aging, played-out, bad actress who's desperate for attention anywhere she can get it.

Plus, the delicious complications: Forgive me if I'm inaccurate, but isn't Brad Penny involved with the star of the show that Shannon Doherty got fired from? (All I know about "Charmed" is that it's the show TNT is showing when I wish it was showing a "Law and Order" rerun.) If this relationship blooms, I could see Drew walking into his mother's office and saying Shannen's stopped giving it up and won't start again until the Dodgers trade Brad Penny, because "that Alyssa was such a witch to her at the Shark Club."

2005-11-10 09:17:40
79.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Nicely done, ratt :P
2005-11-10 09:19:31
80.   Steve
(and what is it about bad sports writers that they quote from each other as ways to prove each other's misguided 'points')

Lawyers do this all the time.

2005-11-10 09:24:26
81.   Jon Weisman
By the way, "aging" Shannen Doherty is only 34. She may be aging to Drew, but she's still a kid to me. And though she's not going to win any Oscars, she doesn't exactly look played out.

http://www.cbs.com/specials/category7/bios.shtml#sdoherty

2005-11-10 09:27:32
82.   blue22
78 - Who's going to start dating Rose McGowan (the other chick from that show) now?

She's kinda freaky though (she dated Marilyn Manson for awhile). I don't know if there's anyone weird enough on the club that could handle her.

2005-11-10 09:29:14
83.   Terry A
I thought 72 was laugh-out-loud funny, and then I read 80, which, if I correctly read between Steve's always spot-on pithy lines, may be the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
2005-11-10 09:30:58
84.   Terry A
P.S. -- I read somewhere that Paris Hilton has been crank-calling the DePodestas.

Keissler, get on that. ;-)

2005-11-10 09:35:09
85.   dzzrtRatt
51 The business about Camille Johnston asking Murray Chass not to write his Dodger column until he can talk to McCourt--and then making McCourt unavailable--is an old PR trick. Camille undoubtedly figured that by stalling Chass from talking to McCourt, the story could not run until a time more favorable to the McCourts--say, after they'd hired the new GM. When that time came, according to this standard issue "managing the news" play, Chass would have no choice but to write the story the McCourts wanted to see, i.e. "First Woman GM," or "McCourt nabs Bosox Genius," or whatever. I'm sure Camille has used this strategy many times before to help her political and corporate bosses.

But what Camille naively didn't realize is that Murray Chass isn't a business or political reporter that flacks can manipulate by turning on and off access to the CEO. Murray Chass has more access to more sources than Camille Johnston will ever ever hav. She can punish him with "no more McCourt interviews for you" til the cows come home, and it won't faze Chass one bit. McCourt will eventually beg to talk to him. And, as every reporter covering the Dodgers knows, Camille Johnston will soon join all the other ex-Dodger flacks who have been escorted from the building by a security guard, so there's no downside to crossing her.

, who is quickly becoming my favorite member of the Dodgers

2005-11-10 09:36:59
86.   Thomas Naccarato
Looks as if Bobby V. is going to have to be scratched off the list (which is probably written in crayon):

http://tinyurl.com/b248g

2005-11-10 09:39:21
87.   dzzrtRatt
81 Jon, you are probably too young to remember, but whenever a formerly hot young actress appeared in a disaster flick (i.e. "Towering Inferno"), it meant their career was over. "Category 7" is a latter-day disaster flick. Pretty much everyone on that cast list is an ex- something.
2005-11-10 09:39:52
88.   still bevens
82 Al Pacino was going out with Rose Mcgowan for a bit, but he dropped her for Kirstie Alley. Seriously.
2005-11-10 09:39:56
89.   dzzrtRatt
85 Sorry for the leftover phrase hanging around the bottom of that post.
2005-11-10 09:48:23
90.   blue22
88 - Picturing Pacino and Mcgowan together is about as gross as Billy Bob Thornton and Angelina Jolie.

And I thought Pacino was married to Bevery d'Angelo?

2005-11-10 09:55:53
91.   Bob Timmermann
Helen Hunt's career went downhill after "Twister" I guess.
2005-11-10 10:00:08
92.   GoBears
Could be worse (than Doherty). Could be Courtney Love.
2005-11-10 10:02:19
93.   Jon Weisman
87 - Again, I am not making any comments about the viability of Doherty's career. I just don't think it's accurate to call someone who is 34 "aging," except on the level that we are all aging.

And no, I'm not too young for Towering Inferno.

2005-11-10 10:04:35
94.   dzzrtRatt
91 Not like this point is really worth making, but I would distinguish "Twister" from a disaster flick like "Airport '75," "The Poseidon Adventure," or "The Towering Inferno" that jammed together a bunch of familiar former stars and put them in jeopardy of drowning/burning up/crashing together. Helen Hunt was not a victim waiting to see if she would live or die in that film.
2005-11-10 10:05:40
95.   GoBears
As for Mr. Keisser's intervention, I think Vishal and Ratt made the right argument, but I also think that it might not matter. Ratt's point about writers' (and many fans') penchant for assuming that the counterfactual move would have worked out perfectly (if Beltre had stayed in LA, he'd have repeated 2004) is right on, but that's not the root of the disagreement about DePodesta or sabermetrics. The root is, as always, differing beliefs about what constitutes a good measure of player quality or performance. The brain-trust assembled here almost all buy into "modern" measures of quality, starting with OPS, ignoring RBI and BA w/ RISP etc., but most people don't, and that includes most columnists. In that view, W-L record, BA, and HRs are all that matter. How else can you explain GG, Cy Young, and MVP awards? Colon was the only guy in the AL with 20 wins, so clearly he was the best pitcher in the league. We scoff. Most people applaud.
2005-11-10 10:23:46
96.   bigcpa
Well I guess being fired over a "botched manager search" is a bit different from Keisser's more nuanced explanation:

"He was fired because he was an inexperienced, mistake-prone and downright lousy general manager who never should have been hired."

2005-11-10 10:26:48
97.   Bob Timmermann
I'm glad that Mr. ratt is as big of a devotee of disaster flicks as I am.

I once a double feature of "The Towering Inferno" and "Earthquake". The latter was presented in "Sensurround".

So how come Marjoe Gortner doesn't get any work in Hollywood now?

2005-11-10 10:28:05
98.   still bevens
90 I think youre thinking about DeNiro. And I think they got divorced awhile back and he's remarried.
2005-11-10 10:28:42
99.   gvette
Wow, in the offseason Dodger Thoughts morphs into a combination of People Magazine and (on NBA gamedays) "Laker Thoughts"! AND old school Bob Keisser checks in! Well, when nothing is going on, I guess you have to make your own fun.

Like was said above, arguing with columnists is futile; before the internet they had an exclusive pipeline, and most don't realize that this has changed. Simply put they KNOW, and you don't. Unfortunately for these guys, it's not 1974 anymore.

Even if you made the argument to Keisser that the squadron of players used at 3B this year were statistically more productive than Beltre in Seattle (an argument I'm not comfortable with), his point is that they weren't as productive as THE '04 BELTRE. Of course we may never see the anomoly of the'04 Beltre again, which is never a consideration with columnists making that argument.

Similarly, no argument about Choi is ever going to succeed with old school guys, because of his baggage; 1)he's not a graceful player, 2)he's a favorite of stat heads and 3)he's not impressed "baseball men" like McKeon and Baker.

As for the gossip side, not that it matters, but how old was young Drew when Shannon first began to light up our lives as that lively Brenda on 90210? Will she sit together with sworn enemy Alyssa Milano during games? Will she make Drew tell mom to tell Kim to trade Penny?

2005-11-10 10:32:47
100.   Jon Weisman
66 - Molokai, I'm re-reading your message and James Click's article. I'm wondering about Jose Lima, who clearly hurt the Royals when he was playing (-30.8 VORP) being considered a better signing than J.D. Drew, who was a positive when he played and neutral when he didn't. Is it the idea that the $8.5 million between Drew and Lima's salaries could/should have been spent on players talented enough to compensate for Lima's awfulness?

If so, I really may need to revisit how I evaluate signings.

Roger Clemens delivered 10.2 WARP for $18 million and was the second-best free-agent signing, according to the article. J.D. Drew delivered 42 percent of Clemens' WARP (4.3) for 61 percent of Clemens' salary ($11 million), and his signing is the 11th-worst. Worse than even Steve Finley, who delivered 11 percent of Clemens' WARP (1.1) for 33 percent of his salary ($6 million).

Trying to keep an open mind, but this is counter-intuitive to me.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-10 10:34:41
101.   dzzrtRatt
93 Hopefully, you're right about 34 not being considered aging for an actress in Hollywood anymore. But it's my impression that most of the key execs in Hollywood would think that, at 34, Shannen Doherty is old enough to be their stepmother.
2005-11-10 10:36:04
102.   Jon Weisman
98 - I think Pacino and D'Angelo were longtime companions who never married, and recently split.

Let the sunshine in.

2005-11-10 10:37:59
103.   Bob Timmermann
According to the IMDB, Shannen Doherty's first onscreen role was in 1982 in "Night Shift". She had appeared in two "Father Murphy" episodes in 1981.

I don't think Drew McCourt was born then.

"Beverly Hills 90210" had its first episode in 1990.

2005-11-10 10:40:43
104.   Penarol1916
103. I first remember Shannon Doherty from that show she did with Wilford Brimley and Diedre Hall, "Our House." I mainly remember that show because my older sister had a crush on Chad Allen.
2005-11-10 10:41:09
105.   Jon Weisman
101 - again, I don't know how much more clear I can be on this, but I am not discussing the use of the term "aging" in reference to Doherty's career.
2005-11-10 10:41:26
106.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
A piece today in BP runs the numbers on which '04 free agents earned their pay and which didn't. The worst value for the money was one Adrian Beltre, who even beat out Magglio Ordonez and Russ Ortiz.

The five who did the most to earn their pay (based on WARP) were Delgado, Clemens, Polanco, Sexson and Kent.

Of course, those numbers probably came from a laptop and are therefore worthless.

http://tinyurl.com/bsww2

2005-11-10 10:42:28
107.   Jon Weisman
104 - Chad "Your run-down but plucky hospital is just my autistic daydream" Allen?
2005-11-10 10:42:54
108.   Jon Weisman
106 - See 66 and 100
2005-11-10 10:43:25
109.   Bob Timmermann
104

So did you break the news to your sister about having a crush on Chad Allen?

34 may be old for Hollywood, but it's way too young to be a GM in baseball. Rocky Mountain News Columnist Dave Krieger described Epstein and DePodesta as "barely pubescent".

2005-11-10 10:44:28
110.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Sorry, I see Click's article was already mentioned. I'm getting slow in my old age. (Yes, I'm even older than Shannen Doherty!)
2005-11-10 10:45:14
111.   dzzrtRatt
95 I'm probably a little bitter at Keisser because he was part of the piling-on that convinced the irresolute McCourts to fire DePodesta. But overall, he does a good job (better than Plaschke for sure) at representing the voice of the fan, and most fans aren't going to take the trouble to get beyond the stats that run in agate or on the back of a baseball card. I sure don't. That's one reason I read this blog and some others. I don't have the time for sabermetrics, but I believe it has much applicability, so I come here to be educated.

But you're wrong in one respect. Many Keisser-like columnists I've read (outside of the local media market) think Rivera and/or Santana got hosed in the Cy Young. Even using the more standard stats, Colon fell short in every category but wins. Santana had more K's and a lower ERA. Rivera's ERA was microscopic. You don't need a VORPal sword to see that Colon was not the AL's best pitcher.

I bet Colon got the award for the same reasons that great actors get Oscars for less-than-their-best performances sometimes. It was a recognition that Colon has put together a fine career. When he retires, he should be able to say, "I won the Cy Young." That's probably what the writers were thinking. Also, I think September heavily influences the voters. Santana was hot in September, but it didn't matter, the Twins were already out of it. Colon's hot streak was decisive in a pennant race.

2005-11-10 10:51:01
112.   Penarol1916
107. The very same, who if I remember my sister's inane babbling about him had a twin sister named Charity, who looked exactly like him, only in a wig. Kind of like that freaky episode of Law & Order SVU from last year.
2005-11-10 10:51:42
113.   jasonungar05
random Towering inferno quote:

Just how bad is it?
Chief O'Hallorhan: It's a fire. All fires are bad.

The one I recall the most was:

"honey did you put out your cigaretee? I smell smoke"

2005-11-10 10:52:55
114.   dzzrtRatt
105 I know. I was the person who used "aging" in the first place, but if you look at what I wrote, that word was meant to modify the noun "actress." I certainly agree that 34 is not old in any sense other than for starlets. If I woke up tomorrow and was 34 again, it would be "Freaky Friday."
2005-11-10 10:55:22
115.   oldbear
91. Twister was a bad movie but I have to disagree that Helen Hunt's career tanked after that.

IIRC, Helen Hunt was in "As Good As It Gets", opposite Jack Nicholson and was nominated for either an Oscar or Golden Globe.

Since then, I havent noticed much from her.

2005-11-10 10:58:45
116.   Jon Weisman
114 - Cool. Got it.
2005-11-10 10:59:43
117.   Jon Weisman
After As Good as it Gets, Helen Hunt basically went into Pay it Forward and then motherhood. We'll probably see more of her again when her kid(s) reach grade school.
2005-11-10 10:59:50
118.   Thomas Naccarato
Pacino and DeAngelo lived and even had a one or two kids together. She sued him for full custody, but I don't remember the outcome.

FYI/411: Did any of you know that Pacino's dad lived in Covina for years, even owned a bar there called Pacino's or something like that.

2005-11-10 11:01:00
119.   molokai
100
WARP and VORP, enough to drive a astrophysicist into the arms of an over the hill actress but still appealing party girl.

Jon, would you mind if I took some of your concerns about his study and posed them to Click. The BP staff is usually very good at responding to intelligent questions which could be why I rarely get an anwser but everyone else seems to.

2005-11-10 11:05:05
120.   Jon Weisman
119 - not at all. Just make sure it comes across as inquisitive, not critical.
2005-11-10 11:06:38
121.   dzzrtRatt
115 I think we're going to have to start using emoticoms around here. Bob was kidding me when he said Helen Hunt's career tanked after "Twister" because I'd said once an actress was in a disaster movie, their career was over. He was making the exact point you're making, that Helen Hunt went on to greater things after "Twister."

Can we get sound effects on this site? From now on, I want follow any of my posts that are supposed to be funny with a rim shot.

2005-11-10 11:12:55
122.   Sam DC
In celebration of our People Magazine diversion, and in tribute to our many past discussions of the Boss, and not in any way as an act of political discussion, I offer the link below which proposes that Bruce Springsteen be appointed to the US Senate.

http://tinyurl.com/8kdbl

2005-11-10 11:13:54
123.   molokai
Warning - Stereotype paragraph coming up.
Actresses have children when they are no longer a hot property. It enables them to give a good reason why they are no longer getting the big parts. Like many of America's elite the raising is done by a conglomeration of people other then the parents. Then when old enough the Thatcher schools can do the rest.

Zeta Jones being the exception because she needed a kid by Michael Douglass before he was to old.

2005-11-10 11:15:30
124.   GoBears
111 You're right. After I posted the Colon example (thinking about Santana), I remembered that there was sentiment for Rivera. So I'll reprhase. If Colon had better peripherals but only 19 wins, he would not have come close to winning.

Whatever. My point, which I suppose was obvious, is that it is the basic disagreement about player evaluation that explains why the SABR and "old school" groups each think the other is nutso. Look at Adam Dunn. Or, heck, Hee-Seop Choi. BA and Ks tell us their muscle-bound garbage. OBP and SLG tell us they're terrific hitters. As long as we can't agree on quality, there's no way we can agree on GMs' moves. That's even ignoring the scrappiness and other "intangibles" we discussed a couple days ago.

2005-11-10 11:18:16
125.   GoBears
123 Yowch.
2005-11-10 11:19:15
126.   Bob Timmermann
123
I guess Annette Bening doesn't get parts any more either.
2005-11-10 11:20:51
127.   Sam DC
Hmmm, and Reese Witherspoon and Kate Hudson and Jennifer Garner and Kate Hudson and [hold nose] Britney Spears don't have babies?
2005-11-10 11:23:03
128.   dzzrtRatt
Or Susan Sarandon. Or Nicole Kidman. Or Jennifer Connelly (grrrr!). Or Julia Roberts.
2005-11-10 11:24:07
129.   dzzrtRatt
And in the old days, I believe Joan Crawford had kids.
2005-11-10 11:24:44
130.   Sam DC
Didn't know both Kate Hudsons had kids, did ya?
2005-11-10 11:25:19
131.   Sam DC
Now I remember, what I meant the second time was Katie Holmes.
2005-11-10 11:27:53
132.   Bob Timmermann
Katie Holmes is having a virgin birth however, so that child will have miraculous powers. I would look out for him once he turns 30. I think he will peak at 31, but his career will be over at 33.

Sort of like Paul DePodesta.

2005-11-10 11:30:01
133.   Vishal
[132] hahahah

i don't think artificial insemination is exactly the hand of god

2005-11-10 11:31:58
134.   Sam DC
(meanwhile, Jon desparately scans the net for actual baseball news to support a new post . . .)
2005-11-10 11:36:11
135.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, I tried to bring it full circle!

How about discussing Chris Carpenter's Cy Young Award win? He beat Willis by 20 points.

Clements, Oswalt, Cordero, and Pettite also ran.

2005-11-10 11:36:49
136.   Penarol1916
131. Wouldn't Katie Holmes actually apply to what molokai said? Her career didn't seem to be going anywhere before she got engaged. I can't remember anything she's done since that movie about Thanksgiving.
2005-11-10 11:38:34
137.   D4P
134
Here's some (not so exciting or new) Dodger news, plus an update on Giles' increasing asking price, from Rotoworld:

Dodgers re-signed outfielders Tydus Meadows and Jon Weber to minor league contracts and invited them to spring training.
Catcher Edwin Bellorin was also re-signed, but he'll report to minor league camp. Both Meadows and Weber played at Double-A Jacksonville last season. Meadows, 28, finished at .274/.418/.495 in 325 AB last season. Weber, 27, hit .300/.369/.456 in 450 AB. Neither player is any kind of a candidate to make the Dodgers. Nov. 10 - 12:57 pm et

The Dodgers intend to interview Giants assistant GM Ned Colletti for their general manager opening.
He'd be the third candidate to interview with the team, following Pat Gillick, who chose the Phillies, and Kim Ng. Owner Frank McCourt has spoken to several other candidates, including John Hart, Theo Epstein and Dennis Gilbert. Hart could be the favorite, but whether he wants the job is in doubt. Epstein's interest seems lukewarm at best. Nov. 10 - 12:51 pm et

In addition to shopping Milton Bradley, the Dodgers are also offering Odalis Perez to teams in need of a starting pitcher.
Perez is due $15 million over the next two years and a $1.5 million buyout of his $9 million option for 2008. Plus, his $4.5 million signing bonus hasn't even been paid to him yet. The Dodgers probably aren't going to be able to dump his contract. Nov. 10 - 12:47 pm et

Brian Giles, who turned down $21 million over three years from the Padres last month, passed on an improved offer which would have paid him $25.5 million for three years.
Giles could make at least $10 million per year for three years as a free agent and might prefer to play to in a park more suited for big offensive numbers. The Cardinals are expected to show a lot of interest. The Padres will probably look at Jacque Jones once they've given up on re-signing Giles. Nov. 10 - 1:43 pm et
Source: San Diego Union-Tribune

2005-11-10 11:38:34
138.   Bob Timmermann
Katie Holmes was in "Batman Begins" which did very well at the box office.
2005-11-10 11:40:59
139.   Sam DC
I'll try.

Frank Robinson got the Presidential Medal of Freedom yesterday. How about that?

On Bowden-phobia, in my sleep-deprived haze this morning, I found my mind drifting back to his trade of Mike Stanton to the Red Sox before the final weekend of the season in excahnge for two A ball pitchers. However lightly regarded those pitchers are, seemshard to faul that move, doesn't it (or did the Nationals lose a draft pick in making that deal)?

2005-11-10 11:42:34
140.   Jon Weisman
134 - I actually do have a topic. Three, in fact. Just my damn job that seems to be interfering.
2005-11-10 11:43:53
141.   Bob Timmermann
Are these real topics? Or are they topics that the McKenzie brothers would have for "The Great White North"?
2005-11-10 11:46:58
142.   Sam DC
139 And I think Stanton only pitched like one inning for the Red Sox after the trade. So hose off, eh.
2005-11-10 11:47:59
143.   bigcpa
Actual baseball topic- why is it such a foregone conclusion that Thome is washed up? This is what Will Carroll wrote about him in August:

"Jim Thome made it official on Wednesday, electing to have surgery to repair a damaged tendon in his damaged elbow. Jim Andrews will clean out damage that sounds like a combination of wear, bone chips, and a frayed tendon. All in all, it's not that serious in the long term. If the symptoms are taken care of, the pain should be gone well before spring training and we'll all get a chance to see if the apparent erosion of Thome's skills was the pain or if it was a true measure. My guess is somewhere in between."

Thome OPS+ last 5 years:
169, 191, 151, 148, 83 (avg 148)

Konerko OPS+ last 5 years:
120, 123, 85, 123, 136 (avg 117)

So if Thome's 2006 falls "somewhere in between" you're doing pretty well. And he's only signed for 3 more years. Get some cash back and it looks even better.

2005-11-10 11:48:32
144.   Jon Weisman
141 - They'd certainly be adequate after a few beers ...
2005-11-10 11:48:47
145.   Telemachos
138 Of course, she was pretty much the weak link in that movie.
2005-11-10 11:57:52
146.   dzzrtRatt
145 Katie Holmes haunted me in a most wondrous way after that movie where Cate Blanchett played a psychic. "The Gift."

I thought the point of her "romance" with Tom Cruise was to help her publicize "Batman Begins," and help him publicize "War of the Worlds." As soon as they're both on DVD, it's over, right?

2005-11-10 12:02:24
147.   bhsportsguy
I know Simers mentioned an email at the end of today's column from someone who had fron the Dodgers Ticket office, I got a call yesterday from someone from the ticket office and we talked a little bit, he said that most fans he has talked to are glad they(Dodgers) got rid of DePo and that Frank (he said Frank) told everyone that they will not have another losing season. Based on that, I of course renewed my seats. LOL, actually I put my deposit down before Depo was fired.
2005-11-10 12:09:32
148.   A Slo
143 - But isn't it true that Thome's elbow wasn't even the biggest or most worrisome of his medical conditions? I seem to remember him dealing with a bad back all season long. Shannen Doherty may not be "aging", but it sure seems Jim Thome is.
2005-11-10 12:16:07
149.   molokai
130
Had no idea but naming her twice doesn't count.

Anette Bening - see Michael Douglas - plus her own clock was ticking.

Some stars can afford to have children while remaining on top(metaphorically speaking). Many can't afford to not take as many roles as they can until they stop coming because once they stop coming the end is quick and painfull.

I of course am very ignorant on this subject but since it is the subject of the day and since other people post ignorant baseball views I figure I could throw my actress/children view out there for consumption.

2005-11-10 12:17:49
150.   bokonon42
144- Dude, are you hitting on Bob?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-10 12:18:02
151.   Bob Timmermann
I think Paul DePodesta and his wife decided to have another child to divert attention from his faltering career.
2005-11-10 12:27:17
152.   Sam DC
143 That's pretty interesting. Got to think Gillick would love to move Thome just because folks in Philly have been saying for so long that it wouldn't be possible. But it's hard to see what prospects (or major league talent) would make sense to trade for him. Odalis Perez, maybe, assuming we got a reasonable amount of cash or another player back?

Of course, we also need more starting pitchers, not fewer. And we don't really need to deepen at first base as much as the outfield.

2005-11-10 12:27:51
153.   bigcpa
Accd to Newsday "The Phillies are dangling Bobby Abreu, but the Yankees don't want to give up Robinson Cano or Chien-Ming Wang for him."

Umm I think we can top that asking price.

2005-11-10 12:37:32
154.   molokai
148
Thome does have a bad back. I think I heard that he is going on the same program that helped Vlady when he 1st came to the Angels.
I would have no problem with Thome if the Phillies want to eat some of the salary and we don't have to jettison anyone worthwhile. I could live with it. It's not my money.

For that matter send the Phillies LaRoche for Abreu. Then we could have Drew and Abreu in the starting outfield. What other outfielder has a reputation as someone who just goes through the motions while posting an OPS > 900 to complete the outfield of non caring statistical studs.

2005-11-10 12:40:43
155.   Sam DC
154 Barry Bonds?
2005-11-10 12:43:38
156.   GoBears
154 155 Awesome. We could watch Plaschke implode from a scrappiness deficiency.
2005-11-10 12:44:08
157.   bigcpa
I'm thinking Bradley/Odalis tops the Cano/Wang package by plenty plus the money balances out better.
2005-11-10 12:46:08
158.   Sam DC
157 Wasn't it Cano or Wang?
2005-11-10 12:51:22
159.   molokai
157
Especially since the Phillies already have the best young 2nd baseman in the league and Cano can't play 3b.
Gillick won't trade for MB. The Phillies are at the bottom of the prospect list. They very well might do the deal just for 2nd tier prospects. No one is going to give them much to take Thome's contract off their hands. How good the prospect depends on how much contract the Dodgers would be willing to take on.
2005-11-10 12:56:40
160.   bigcpa
159 I meant for Abreu.
2005-11-10 12:59:01
161.   Penarol1916
138. Bah, you're right. That's what I get for only seeing 5 non-children's movies a year, I forget when someone stars in one I was never planning to see. Oh well, off to melt my brain an online course on anti-money laundering practices.
2005-11-10 12:59:04
162.   sanchez101
i have a hard time believing that the yankees wouldnt give up cano or wang for Abreu. If that is true, then there is no reason he shouldnt be a dodger next year.

I think Giles is worth considerably more than the Padres are offering, I think he's worth upwards of $30m/3 yrs. A Giles, Drew, Abreu outfield would be awesome, with Cruz and Werth or Ledee backing them up.

2005-11-10 13:04:08
163.   das411
160 - Ok...except for the part where Odalis Perez is basically a more expensive Randy Wolf and Milton Bradley would be the FOURTH center fielder on our roster.

Didn't we all work this trade out like 2 weeks ago? Nate, did you see my proposed 3-way LA/PHI/TB deal or should I start digging it up now that Abreu is out there again?

The Thome deals that make the most sense to me are either to NYM for Cameron + Bascik or to try to pry Barton + an arm away from OAK. And now that we have an actual GM, those just might happen.

2005-11-10 13:08:52
164.   Bob Timmermann
I noticed that the Times ran one letter to the editor in response to Matt Welch's "Out of Tent" piece about Plaschke and Simers. The letterwriter said that since the Dodgers had a bad year and that was an insult to him, the Times could be as insulting as they chose to be.

Which missed the point of Welch's piece that Plaschke and Simers were insulting even before the 2005 season.

2005-11-10 13:12:48
165.   bigcpa
163 Do we have an actual GM?
2005-11-10 13:14:05
166.   Sam DC
165 Different "we" -- he's talking about Gillick (and by comparison Wade).
2005-11-10 13:14:05
167.   Bob Timmermann
Like Springfield when Mayor Quimby fled, the Dodgers are run by a council of learned citizens.
2005-11-10 13:19:15
168.   bigcpa
166 Illegal use of the pronoun "We." If this was Phillies Thoughts we'd probably be diverging into T.O. talk instead of Shannen Doherty talk.
2005-11-10 13:21:49
169.   das411
Or you could try something like the Packers' ownership group...

http://tinyurl.com/bu5wr

2005-11-10 13:26:18
170.   sanchez101
163. Billy Beane would have to be possessed by the spirit of Brian Sabean to trade Barton + an arm for Thome.
Is Gillick actually trying to trade Abreu, and could a Cano or Wang type player get it done?
2005-11-10 13:28:46
171.   sanchez101
another thought, IF Abreu is on the trade market, why is Ken Gurnick telling us the Dodgers could trade for Beltre to address the offense? Is he under some delusion that Beltre the better player?
2005-11-10 13:31:16
172.   brandesh
I wish someone could just convince Bradley to shut up and focus on baseball rather than what other people thought about him. We wouldn't be having this discussion about trading him. He could be a GREAT player and he's cheap. Chemistry rears it's ugly head.
2005-11-10 13:34:09
173.   King of the Hobos
163 4th CF? You like Victorino, Michaels, and Chavez more than Bradley? When healthy, Bradley trumps all of them. I don't see Gillick liking Michaels much, who is the only one I'd argue is better.
2005-11-10 13:36:57
174.   King of the Hobos
171 Abreu really hasn't been announced as available (although he probably is). Gurnick was just writing a standard article that all the MLB.com writers had to write yesterday, and he named guys that are known to be on the market. I don't think there was any opinion involved
2005-11-10 13:38:15
175.   sanchez101
bradley hasnt said anything publicly for months. Really, I dont understand why its assumed that one of Kent or Bradley needs to go. First of all, there both professionals or should be, and they should just suck it up and play baseball. Secondly, who made up the rule that teams with "bad chemisty" cant win, Kobe and Shaq won three titles together, look at what Reggie Jackson's teams in NY and Oak accomplished. Unless someone useful come back to the Dodgers, Im against trading Bradley.
2005-11-10 13:38:50
176.   overkill94
If anyone's in the mood for some heartbreak, the 1985 NLCS Game 5 is on ESPN Classic right now. I've never seen the game so I'd like to see this Jack Clark homer everyone talks so much about. One thing I have noticed is that Fernando really got squeezed in the later innings. Maybe if he wouldn't have thrown those extra pitches he could have thrown a full nine.
2005-11-10 13:39:11
177.   Thomas Naccarato
Let us not forget that Shannen was a Heather, and if I had a choice between all three of them, well back then she wasn't as trash as she is now, but on looks alone....... Ha Cha Cha Cha Cha!

The other two Heathers, well one is a mom (Lisanne Falk) the other is dead. (Kim Walker, died of brain cancer)

All three of them were not bad looking at all.

The entire Katie Holmes/Tom Cruise-thing I hear is very laughable.

2005-11-10 13:44:13
178.   D4P
172
Can someone explain to me what it is that makes so many people think that Milton is a "great" player? The guy is 27 years old, and has never:

1. Hit more than 19 HRs in a season
2. Driven in more than 67 runs in a season
3. Had more than 138 hits in a season
Only once has he had more than 377 ABs in a season.

And, he's a career .269/.350./.426/.776 hitter. Those figures aren't particularly impressive. His 2003 was much better than average, where he OPS-ed .922. But he followed that up with .786 in 2004, in many more ABs. If we're gonna base our evaluation of a 27 year old on one good season, and conclude that he's a great player, we might as well conclude the same thing about Beltre, who's a year younger.

Granted, Milton's a lot cheaper than Beltre, but that's not accidental.

2005-11-10 13:46:24
179.   Bob Timmermann
You will be waiting a long time for Jack Clark to hit a home run in Game 5 of the NLCS.
2005-11-10 13:46:47
180.   Thomas Naccarato
That heartbreak/Clark homer game was at Dodger Stadium, not St. Louis. It was also Game Six. But the Game Five was just as disappointing.
2005-11-10 13:47:39
181.   Thomas Naccarato
Bob got to it before me 23 seconds before, Sorry!
2005-11-10 13:48:15
182.   blue22
180 - Is that the "Go crazy, StL!" game?
2005-11-10 13:51:14
183.   overkill94
Aw crap, so I'm watching the wrong game? Eh, like there's anything better on at 1:50 on a Thursday afternoon.
2005-11-10 13:51:36
184.   Thomas Naccarato
My age is showing and I can't remember, but that entire NLCS was very forgettable for me. The echo of me screaming the "f" word still reverberates here in La Habra.
2005-11-10 13:52:54
185.   Thomas Naccarato
Giada DeLaurentiis is on the Food TV, you can watch her. Trust me when I say this, its a lot more entertaining!
2005-11-10 13:52:59
186.   blue22
Game 5 was Ozzie's LH-homer, right? First ever HR from the left side.
2005-11-10 13:52:59
187.   Jon Weisman
I vividly remember watching Ozzie's homer on a borrowed small black and white TV in my freshman dorm room. I could not believe it.

Jack Clark's HR was in color.

2005-11-10 13:55:55
188.   bigcpa
Looking at retrosheet, Fernando batted for himself in the top of the 7th in a 2-2 game with runners on 1st and 2nd. Yech! I believe he had thrown a ton of pitches already- he walked 8 in the game. Jim Tracy learned from the best.
2005-11-10 13:56:03
189.   overkill94
185 Haha, my girlfriend hates that girl (she is hot though), she's a huge Rachael Ray fan though. Me, I can't stand watching cooking shows, unless it's meat 'n potatoes day.
2005-11-10 13:57:55
190.   Thomas Naccarato
That's the one. UGH!

I hated that whole entire Whitey Hezog/Ozzie/Willie McGhee/Joe Garigiola doing color for Vinny-thing. I even rooted for KC in the World Series and enjoyed the blown call.

2005-11-10 14:00:13
191.   Thomas Naccarato
189 She's doing shrimp today, and it all looks pretty good to me!

Enjoy Rachel Ray a lot, in fact I have a special new/old friend (we went to school together) that looks very similar to her.

Cool! :)

2005-11-10 14:13:34
192.   sanchez101
178. I dont think anyone here has Bradley mistaked for a great player, although you analysis of his hits and homeruns ignores bradley's skill at drawing walks and defense. Just for a comparison of what bradley's eqa and center field rate(defensive measure 100: average):
Bradley Player X
EQA/rate EQA/rate
2003 324/100 261/96
2004 274/105 276/99
2005 291/109 283/101

Player X is Torii Hunter. Now Hunter has much more durable, but when healthy Bradley is a great complementary player, like Hunter.

2005-11-10 14:13:54
193.   fawnkyj
Its very early in the offseason but the names that are being thrown around already as trade bait has the making for a cool & eventful offseason. Abreu, Ichiro, Helton, Thome.

Now if we can just get a GM to make these moves for us.

2005-11-10 14:15:07
194.   sanchez101
192 mistaked=mistaken
2005-11-10 14:16:22
195.   King of the Hobos
Looks like Phoenix will end the regular season at 22-10, best record in the league. Beau Dannemiller started the game for some reason, guess they didn't want to waste a starter for the playoffs (uh, Championship Game).

End of season stats:

Loney: 59 AB, .322/.354/.610, 2 2B, 5 HR, 4 BB, 7 K, 1 SB, 2 E
Abreu: 82 AB, .305/.322/.439, 5 2B, 1 3B, 1 HR, 3 BB, 11 K, 1 SB, 3 E
Laroche: 91 AB, .352/.391/.451, 8 2B, 0 HR, 6 BB, 15 K, 4 SB, 2 E
Kemp: 94 AB, .383/.414/.606, 6 2B, 3 3B, 3 HR, 5 BB, 14 K, 2 SB (4 CS), 2 E

Hull: 6 G, 25.2 IP, 3.51 ERA, 2 HR, 7 BB, 18 K
Dannemiller: 11 G, 13.2 IP, 12.06 ERA, 6 HR, 8 BB, 4 K
Hoorelbeke: 7 G, 7.2 IP, 9.39 ERA, ) HR, 3 BB, 5 K
Miller: 3 G, 4 IP, 4.50 ERA, 0 HR, 3 BB, 4 K

2005-11-10 14:16:58
196.   Linkmeister
After last night's shocker, why is "Lost" not being discussed here? Am I the only DT reader who watches that show?

(As long as TV is one of the topics anyway)

2005-11-10 14:21:25
197.   Bob Timmermann
WALLLLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!
2005-11-10 14:21:53
198.   das411
173 - Hobos, I like Cameron better than any of those guys, but that deal makes too much sense for it to happen. I'd rather stick with the current 3-headed ugliness (how is Endy Chavez an MLB player, btw?) until Golson is ready in 2007 than import a player with MB's history. You think the Phila media would give him anything less than a full TO treatment and run him out of town the first time he looks sideways at Pat Burrell?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Phillies' 3 biggest holes are 3B, C, and pitching. LA matches up very well for a potential deal at those positions. We most certainly do not need another OFer, even one as league-average as Milton Bradley.

Thomas Nac, is Denny Crane really gonna run for mayor of Boston???

2005-11-10 14:22:08
199.   King of the Hobos
Laroche says he's a better angler than Casey Daigle. I'm not so sure, as Daigle somehow angled Jenny Finch in

http://tinyurl.com/dunkj

He also says his nickname is Roachie. He needs a better, more masculine nickname, like the Bull or JtD

2005-11-10 14:24:46
200.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.

NO "LOST" DISCUSSION - I HAVE NOT WATCHED IT YET. NO "LOST" DISCUSSION.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-11-10 14:32:16
201.   Penarol1916
196. Because I have too many bitter questions about the show now. What was the point of even having Shannon and Boone on the show if they were going to die without really contributing anything? How many episodes are the writers going to waste on the backstory of the other people from the back of the plane? How much of that is really just trying to buy time while JJ Abrams figures out what in the world he is doing with this once good show? Why did I watch this instead of Veronica Mars last night? Why did I just take that stupid class on money-laundering (besides to get tips for my own uses)?
2005-11-10 14:33:02
202.   Penarol1916
200. Ah crud.
2005-11-10 14:39:22
203.   Bob Timmermann
WALLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!

It's not tipping anything off. It's just how you have to say the character's name.

2005-11-10 14:45:40
204.   gcrl
203 - isn't it hard to draw out the sounds of constanants like that?
2005-11-10 15:23:31
205.   molokai
Problem with David Wells when someone mentioned him weeks ago is that his contract would cost around 8 million which is a lot for what you'd get. He's got incentives up the ying yang and he hit every one in 2005. He's not bad but I'd spend 1/2 the money on Kenny Rogers who might welcome a chance to pitch in a pitching park for the 1st time in his career. Rogers is a free agent and is used to pitching on bad teams. Wells isn't and hasn't pitched on bad teams. Plus Rogers is a fast starter and slow finisher. I think we'd get our money worth by August and when he starts to flail, Billingsly should be ready.

I like Kim at the right price since we won't be playing in Yankee stadium anytime soon. With Kuo, Kim, and Choi it might help Drew with his marketing plan. We could bill Kuo and Kim as the killer K's. Kim does have a rep as a bad teammate but that might only be because they know if they mess with him he can kill them many different ways. He's a serious martial arts student and unlike Chan Ho would not need to use his cleets to make his mark.

I'm also the only one who likes Scott Elarton. He not only had surgery he had to face Coors field. Now that he's several years removed from surgery and Coors he may be ready to take the next step up. He had a nice 4 game winning streak in Sept. He also was terrible in his last start that was a must win. I know the Indians want to bring him back but I'm curious what they will be offering him. Home runs is what is keeping him back. If he gets those under control he could be a usefull back end starter at a decent price.

2005-11-10 22:21:41
206.   al bundy
I'd have dated Shannon Doherty too - if it were 10 years ago. Besides, I never date another tv star. Although I guess an old lady can teach a young chap a thing or 2. I just wish Drew didn't have to get OTJ training.

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