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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Dodger-Angel Thoughts on Baseball Prospectus
2005-11-11 08:11
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

For the first time, I'm making a guest appearance on Baseball Prospectus, with this article on the Dodgers and Angels, "Baseball's Odd Couple."

In 2006, the Los Angeles Dodgers were asked to remove themselves from their place of residence; that request came from their fans. Deep down, they knew the fans were right, but they also knew that some day they would return to them. With nowhere else to go, they appeared at the home of their friends, the Los Angeles Angels. Several years earlier, the Angels' fans could have thrown them out, requesting that they never return. Can two local teams share a metropolis without driving each other crazy?

This new version of The Odd Couple isn't really going to air (though similarly strange things happen every day), but the narration taps into a common feeling concerning the direction of Los Angeles' two major league baseball teams.

The Dodgers are the Felix Ungers--well-pedigreed, stylish if you don't mind the occasional ascot, but increasingly oblivious of their own flaws. The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, as they have come to be known with growing acceptance, were the Oscar Madisons--until they somewhat startlingly cleaned the mustard off their plaid sport coats and became winners. ...

Comments (186)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-11 08:23:44
1.   Bob Timmermann
I liked the first few paragraphs then it sort of had an abrupt ending.
2005-11-11 08:45:47
2.   JJoeScott
I like where you were heading, Jon. But I need to save my $4.95 so I can park half a car at Dodger Stadium next season.
2005-11-11 08:48:36
3.   Vishal
it will take several more consecutive seasons of dodger futility and angel success before the town gets painted red.
2005-11-11 09:17:43
4.   scareduck
Vishal -- I would say more like a decade, and even then it's not clear. The Mets outdrew the Yankees throughout most of the 80's, but the National League team is still really a second-place club in the affections of New Yorkers. Realistically the Dodgers could spend a decade in the wilderness -- heck, they've already spent two, so maybe the forest is growing more tangled and darker.

Jon:

>>The Dodgers have hung on to their prospects about as much as the Angels.<<

Show me a single top prospect the Angels have traded. One. Meantime, Franklin Gutierrez and Reggie Abercrombie play for other teams. Now you could argue: well, Bobby Jenks? Steven Andrade? Derrick Turnbow? Special circumstances apply to those (injury and ineffectiveness, Rule 5 draftee (IIRC), steroids plus age), but the Angels haven't actively shopped their prospects. Whether that's a failing or not is another story.

2005-11-11 09:31:35
5.   Jon Weisman
4 - Well, I didn't choose the words "hung on to" accidentally. I don't know why only trades would be relevant.

I don't know what the final tally would be - I'm sure there's some difference between the two teams (hence the "about as well"), but if you're going to argue that losing Gutierrez and Abercrombie was worse than losing Jenks and Turnbow, I'm going to let that go.

2005-11-11 09:43:47
6.   sanchez101
4. Abercrombie wasnt a prospect when he was traded, and he had never really been anything more than a border-line prospect.
2005-11-11 09:45:02
7.   bigcpa
As a proud subscriber to Prospectus I was able to read Jon's column in its entirety. Well done. So Jon, do tell. What is your 2nd favorite team?

Wish you threw in a paragraph about Steve Finley and the media reaction to his switching teams. The fact that DePo did the right thing and the fans/papers didn't get it tells you a lot about the perception of the two teams in 2005.

2005-11-11 09:51:27
8.   Bob Timmermann
Jon likes America's Team:

The Texas Rangers

2005-11-11 09:53:21
9.   Jon Weisman
7 - Thanks, Big. My dad's Cubs.
2005-11-11 10:08:16
10.   scanderbeg
Though I know it's different, I have a hard time not juxtaposing the Dodgers-Angels rivalry with the Lakers-Clippers. There are A LOT of differences here, 1) The Angels have actually won something in their history (albeit recently), 2) The Dodgers and Angels are in different leagues and 3) different cities. However, I still believe that the Dodgers and Lakers will always be the first loves in Los Angeles' hearts. Their respective brands mean so much more, historically, than do their Angel and Clipper counterparts. Unless the Angels continue to get far in the playoffs and the Dodgers continue to have seasons like '05, then I have difficulty foreseeing the Angels passing up the Dodgers in popularity long-term. Granted, this is all coming from an avid Laker/Dodger fan; a true-believer, if you will.
2005-11-11 10:08:49
11.   John A
Jon: well done. Your longer-term view of the two franchises helped me "deal psychologically with Dodgers," which is one of my biggest criteria for useful reading these days. I loved your line "...washing the food off their dinner plates before tossing the plates in the garbage." That's the best analogy I've yet heard for the DePo/Tracy firing sequence.
As a regular DT reader, I thought you were remarkably restrained in your treatment of Frank McCourt :)
2005-11-11 10:09:36
12.   LAT
I like my Dad's Dodgers better than my Dodgers and certainly like my Dodgers better than my daughters Dodgers.
2005-11-11 10:24:28
13.   Vishal
[10] on the other hand, the offseason turmoil in lakerland the year before last left such a bad taste in my mouth that i started watching clipper games instead, and now i consider myself at least a split-cap fan. i'll always root for the lakers to do well, but last season i couldn't bear to watch. the clippers were a refreshingly likeable team, by comparison. and i'm really glad they've started off so well this season.
2005-11-11 10:28:22
14.   bigcpa
>> A major league executive told the Philadelphia Inquirer that the Phillies and Blue Jays have discussed swapping Bobby Abreu and Vernon Wells.

Argh! Kim/Roy/whoever... go talk to Gillick!

2005-11-11 10:30:04
15.   RotoAuthority
Hey Jon, enjoyed the article on BP. Just wanted to point out that it says "pubic relations personnel" in there. Not sure if that is a joke or a typo, although I heard that joke on the Freddie Prinze sitcom before Lost came on.
2005-11-11 10:33:41
16.   molokai
We will take new Clipper fans however we get em. Ralph Lawler and Mike Smith are funny which helps make the Clips more likeable. I was actually able to sell a Clipper ticket at the same price I paid for it for the first time in 15 years. Times are a changing.
2005-11-11 10:37:19
17.   Jon Weisman
15 - Uh ... I think I'll send in a correction. Thanks...
2005-11-11 10:37:37
18.   bhsportsguy
Just one question, what would the L.A. Times say if we had made this trade and this happened?

Updated: November 11, 10:46 AM ET
Vazquez hopes to pitch closer to East Coast By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com

Arizona ace Javier Vazquez formally asked the Diamondbacks to trade him Thursday night, preferably to a team east of the Mountain Time Zone.
Not because of money. Not to make trouble. Not because he dislikes anything about Arizona except its place on the map.


Vazquez went 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA in 33 starts last season for the Diamondbacks.

This, Vazquez told ESPN.com, was just about family.

"That's the whole thing," Vazquez said. "Me and my wife -- we're very family-oriented. That's the way my mom and dad raised me. That's the way her mom and dad raised her. When I played with Montreal and New York and I'd go on a long trip, my wife and kids were able to go home to Puerto Rico to see our family. And vice-versa. When I was home, our family could come and see us.

"But in Arizona, it was tough. The toughest thing was that flight [from Arizona to Puerto Rico], especially with two young kids [ages 1 and 2] who have to move around and can't be still for two seconds. It was a whole-day trip. You leave at 9 [a.m.] and get in at 9-10 o'clock at night, and then have another hour and 20-minute ride to our house. It was just very hard. ... So for me and my family, it would just be easier to be closer to the East Coast."

Because he was traded last January from the Yankees to Arizona while he was in the middle of a multiyear contract, Vazquez had the right to request a trade after playing out his first season with his new team. He can specify six teams to which he doesn't want to be dealt.

The Diamondbacks now have until March 15 to trade him. If they don't, Vazquez either can rescind his request or opt to become a free agent -- which would void the two years and $24 million remaining on his contract.

"This is often referred to as 'demanding' a trade," said Vazquez's agent, Seth Levinson. "But this isn't a demand. It's a respectful request, to be traded to a place that can satisfy his desire to be closer to home."

Arizona GM Josh Byrnes declined comment, other than to acknowledge Vazquez's request. However, the Diamondbacks already had been looking for ways to manufacture more payroll flexibility. So they may not view the opportunity to move a $12-million-a-year player as a negative development.

Vazquez's reasoning sounds almost identical to sentiments he voiced last December after the Yankees tentatively agreed to trade him to the Dodgers. At the time, Vazquez told then-Dodgers GM Paul DePodesta he preferred to stay in the east. So the Dodgers backed off dealing for a player who clearly didn't want to play on the West Coast.

But two weeks later, the Yankees sent him to Arizona as the centerpiece in the Randy Johnson deal. And Vazquez has been wrestling with whether to stick it out or request a trade ever since.

"During the season," he said, "my thought was, 'Well, maybe this can still work out for me to stay. Maybe we can figure something out.' But at the end of the day, it was just too tough for my family for us to stay there. ...

"It was a tough decision," Vazquez said, "because I really enjoyed my time in Arizona. I had a good time with the guys on the team and everyone there. Everybody treated me well -- the fans, the organization, everybody. Just for personal reasons, it would be easier on my family to be closer to the East Coast."

Vazquez said he knows that when people in Arizona hear he has "demanded" a trade, they might misunderstand his reasons.

"But what other reason could I have?" he asked. "This is just what I said last year to the Dodgers. I could have said, 'Give me an extension, give me more money, and I'll stay with you guys.' But I don't want that. I just want to be somewhere that my family is more comfortable."

Even though Vazquez is owed $11.5 million next year and $12.5 million in 2007, the Diamondbacks would be likely to have a long list of potential bidders for a 29-year-old right-hander who has averaged 206 innings a season for the last six years. Among teams that figure to be interested: the Mets, Marlins, Red Sox, Phillies, Blue Jays, Tigers and Cardinals.

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

2005-11-11 10:50:16
19.   scanderbeg
14 - Vernon Wells comes at a very low price $-wise. There is almost $10MM per season in difference between those two salaries. If the Jays are shopping him, I would hope the Dodgers are looking into it. Bobby Abreu's value goes w/o saying, though he is a very expensive option. Compared 2005 stats according to Baseball Prospectus:

Wells OPS: .783
Vorp: 32.0
Abreu OPS: .879
Vorp: 56.8
B. Giles OPS: .906
Vorp: 65.1
Drew: OPS: .932
Vorp: 31.1
Bradley: OPS: .829
Vorp: 24.0
Lo Duca: OPS: .711
Vorp: 21.5

I know Lo Duca doesn't fit in here, but it's fun to compare, eh comrades?

2005-11-11 10:58:37
20.   scanderbeg
An outfield of Bradley, Drew and Abreu would be unbelievable. Could Abreu be had for Odalis, Jeff Kent, and maybe Jayson Werth?
2005-11-11 11:00:34
21.   fanerman
I would rather overpay Giles for a couple years than acquire some slugger through a trade, though I suppose we do lose a draft pick that way.
2005-11-11 11:03:07
22.   regfairfield
20 Considering they were asking for Chein Ming Wang, I don't think it will take much.

As an overarching idea, isn't now the worst possible time to trade Odalis? His value is in the toilet.

2005-11-11 11:05:56
23.   fanerman
22 - Yeah. Odalis is more important to us than anybody else. He could still have a decent year.

Maybe Kent and a not-THAT-good-player is all we need for Abreu. In which case, I'm all for it.

2005-11-11 11:06:57
24.   Sam DC
Don't we need Jeff Kent?
2005-11-11 11:07:35
25.   regfairfield
23 I doubt the Phillies will take Kent, considering they have better, younger, and cheaper first and second basemen.
2005-11-11 11:08:22
26.   dzzrtRatt
I wouldn't be so sanguine about the Dodgers' legacy hold on the fans. Not if:

-- The Angels keep winning, which is a distinct possibility given their productive farm system, and surging fan support.

-- The McCourts keep managing the Dodgers the way they've done so far, i.e. incompetently, cluelessly. (I wrote a lot more about this in the Times v. Dodgers' thread)

What struck me was that after 2002, all my son's friends who paid attention to baseball were Angels fans, not Dodgers fans. And I mean, loyal fans, who knew the team inside out. In decades past, I hardly met anyone who was that kind of Angel fan.

Not only are the Dodgers' a disappointing team, they are boring, from the standpoint of budding baseball fans. Nothing has changed that would cause these pre-teens and teens to switch their allegience back to the Dodgers, and what are the odds that things will change anytime soon? Look at the ownership. Moreno v. McCourt is really no contest. Moreno is a better businessman, a better baseball man, and a better PR/marketing man than the McCourts, by miles and miles. Moreno is lucky in his adversaries. The field is wide-open, and I wouldn't bet against him.

2005-11-11 11:09:07
27.   Jon Weisman
Just a reminder - don't reprint articles at length here. Just give the link - thanks.
2005-11-11 11:09:12
28.   slackfarmer
21 I'm with you. I'd rather have Giles.
2005-11-11 11:09:30
29.   regfairfield
24 If the "Choose between Kent or Bradley rumor is true" I would prefer to see Kent go.

But I don't think it will happen.

2005-11-11 11:12:37
30.   scareduck
5 - I'm not sure it matters.
2005-11-11 11:13:49
31.   scareduck
26 - see my comments to Vishal at 4. Honestly, I don't see how the overleveraged McCourts can hang on to this team for long if they keep pulling stunts like this.
2005-11-11 11:15:21
32.   scareduck
26 - although I will concede your point on the next generation of fans. I see far more young kids in Angels gear than Dodgers gear, regardless of which side of the Orange Curtain I happen to be on.
2005-11-11 11:16:04
33.   regfairfield
28 All things being equal, I would rather have Abreu. He's three years younger, and puts up very similar numbers to Giles. Of late, he has the power advantage, with Giles' home run total slipping to 15 (9 on the road) this year.

He also adds a strong stolen base threat to a lineup that is desperately lacking in speed. (And he actually steals well enough to not hurt the team).

Abreu is pretty much a lock to hit .300, put up an on base in the low .400s, hit 25 home runs, and steal 30 bases. I want him on my team.

2005-11-11 11:17:58
34.   Steamer
I think the 'Ratt has a good point (26). Did anyone catch Matt Leinart being interviewed the other night wearing.....an Angel's cap. Anecdotal, I grant you, but it caught my eye, and do think that there is a younger generation of fans coming up that see things in a different light.
2005-11-11 11:19:04
35.   Bob Timmermann
Sign of the times of the influence of the 1988 Dodgers: Agoura High has a football player named Orel Tagai. I would assume he's about 17.
2005-11-11 11:23:35
36.   blue22
33 - What about between Abreu and Dunn?
2005-11-11 11:23:49
37.   slackfarmer
33 I hear you regarding a straight-up player comparison, but Abreu is owed $30 million over the next 2 years and Giles should be obtainable for $20 million. I'd rather have Giles and $5 million extra per year than Abreu.
2005-11-11 11:24:22
38.   still bevens
34 And Reggie Bush was wearing a Boston cap. Its all about winning...
2005-11-11 11:24:31
39.   scanderbeg
34 - I've also seen Leinart interviewed in a Dodger hat before.
2005-11-11 11:24:46
40.   Steve
they are boring

McCourt's interviewing Ned Colletti and you say they're boring!

2005-11-11 11:25:25
41.   still bevens
Am I the only one who thinks Giles isnt going to come cheap by any means? It seems like everyone and their mother is interested in his services.
2005-11-11 11:26:02
42.   fanerman
41 - I know how expensive he'll get. I'm willing to pay it.
2005-11-11 11:28:08
43.   fanerman
The Angels do come off as more "fun." Though I think it's still all about winning. If the Dodgers had Vlad and the Angels didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
2005-11-11 11:31:23
44.   regfairfield
37 While Abreu is slightly more than I thought he was (I thought 26), I don't think Giles will come that cheaply. I'm thinking at least three years 36 million for him. He's a player that is highly valued by both old fashioned and sabermetric teams.

I'm also quite scared of Giles' massive power decline over the last three years. Over the last three years (I think, did Petco open '04 or '03?) Giles has had about an equal slugging percentage at Petco as he has on the road (a large gap in favor of the road this year).

I don't think Giles is a credible enough power threat to have the Dodgers get involved in the bidding.

2005-11-11 11:32:45
45.   still bevens
I'd rather 'overpay' for Abreu than Giles.
2005-11-11 11:33:26
46.   jasonungar05
from BA article. I find this insane! I am in favor of getting this guy as well. But it's a pipe dream, if you have a choice in the matter why would anyone want to be a Dodger? Joking aside, we have no manager.

Giles:

Put another way, Brian outproduced Carlos Delgado, David Ortiz, Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero, Andruw Jones, and Manny Ramirez on the road.

2005-11-11 11:36:59
47.   regfairfield
I caught a mistake I made, I was reading Giles' San Diego numbers from 2003, not his overall numbers.
2005-11-11 11:39:52
48.   scareduck
40 - ha ha, there's a difference between "scary" and "boring".
2005-11-11 11:40:38
49.   molokai
26
Completely agree. If I lived anywhere close to Angel stadium and I had my pick to go to a game between the Dodgers and Angels I'd pick the Angels. The Angels would not have gotten the huge TV contract they got if the numbers didn't support it.
I expect the Angels to dominate the Dodgers over the next 10 years. Moreno is the smarter owner and the team is just loaded. He can make a Finley mistake and just throw it away. They can give Salmon and GA terrible contracts and still survive. Logan White gets a lot credit here but whoever is equivalent for the Angels is doing as good a job.
Lot of people are critical of Scoscia's brand of baseball but for most fans it is more fun to watch a team swing/hit/run.
2005-11-11 11:49:14
50.   blue22
Ok...no one is speculating on the relative worth of Adam Dunn as compared to Giles or Abreu. I think Dunn should be put into the same category as these two ("available lefty power guys with high OBP/SLG/OPS totals").

Of course Dunn will require a prospect or two (or three) but I think he has the best long term ability.

And, if we think the new GM will be in "win-now" mode (which most likely includes the trading of some prospects), wouldn't Dunn be a hopeful target? Better than Beltre or Thome?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-11 11:49:23
51.   Vishal
[49]

i (used) to live near angel stadium but i still preferred to go to dodger games, because i find the angels really annoying. i'm not typical though, i guess.

2005-11-11 11:52:09
52.   fanerman
50 - If the choice was Dunn or Beltre or Thome, then of course I'd go for Dunn.

If the choice was Dunn, Abreu, or Giles, I'd take Giles, then Abreu, then Dunn.

Keep the core prospects intact.

2005-11-11 11:52:56
53.   Eric L
49 I live closer to Anaheim, but I choose DS.. probably cause I am a Dodger fan and all.

Lot of people are critical of Scoscia's brand of baseball but for most fans it is more fun to watch a team swing/hit/run.

Let's face it, most fans enjoy watching the Angels lately because they win. I think most fans don't care about how the team goes about winning, just as long as they do.

2005-11-11 11:53:49
54.   djt
Nice article, Jon. I'm a regular reader of both your site and BP, and thought your article over there fit in nicely. Well played.

Did anyone else notice this bit from J.A. Adande's column? Here's the thesis: "Ng would be set up to fail, just another candidate to join the growing list of former Dodger general managers. Then it would be impossible for her to land another GM job."

But then he writes this:

"Normally important hires that vary from the norm (white males) come when a team has a surplus of good will or is in such dire straits that it might as well try something new. Omar Minaya got his break as the first Latino GM with the down-and-out Montreal Expos."

Well, yes he did. And where is he now? Out of baseball entirely, because he was "set up to fail"?

No, he "land[ed] another GM job" running the Mets.

I might've bought his argument if he hadn't shot it down himself.

2005-11-11 11:55:03
55.   Uncle Miltie
10- right now, the best teams in Southern California are the Angels and the Clippers. The Angels will continue to be the best team in the LA area until McCourt (well not quite), but until he gets his act together. The Clippers are on the rise, while the Lakers are a team that needs to rebuild, but they haven't come to terms with it, so they are "retooling". They are shooting for Lebron James in 2007/08(?)
2005-11-11 11:59:12
56.   Eric L
55 The oldest player on the Lakers roster is McKie. I think they are sort of rebuilding albiet it is a half you-know-what job.
2005-11-11 12:01:29
57.   fanerman
Choi's working on his swing and they say he's having good progress (see Choi Central and Blue Think Tank). I predict that Choi is going to have a monster season next year. Hopefully it's with the Dodgers.
2005-11-11 12:05:09
58.   scanderbeg
Choi could be used as a bargaining chip in a trade, but I don't think his trade-value is as high as his upside.
2005-11-11 12:07:05
59.   fanerman
Players like Choi, Bradley, and Perez have much more value to us than to anybody else. We might as well keep them.
2005-11-11 12:09:45
60.   scareduck
43 - agreed.
2005-11-11 12:11:23
61.   808Bears
What about the 'fuzzy math' PR value (or liability) of Choi (and Bradley, et al) as symbols of the "failed" DePodesta era? Unfortunately, I think that the image-obsessed McCourts won't be able to stand to keep him/them around. For the fans' sake, you know.
2005-11-11 12:31:17
62.   LAT
If Frank were going to keep Milton, by now I would have expected a PR campaign about how he is getting help and what he did really wasn't so bad, he and Kent have patched things up and yada, yada, yada. The complete silence makes me believe Milton will be dealt.
2005-11-11 12:39:09
63.   Vishal
[62] well, the complete silence might be because they don't know if they will trade kent. if kent goes, bradley can stay. it might all hinge on what kinds of deals they can get. kent will probably bring more value back. i hope he gets traded to the AL though. what do you say, kent to the red sox? i don't know who we'd get back though. don't they have a decent pitching prospect?
2005-11-11 12:46:16
64.   Kayaker7
57 Everytime I hear about Choi working on his swing, I cringe. What was wrong with a swing that worked so that he hit .300 against AAA lefty pitching? I'm sure everyone's swing can be improved and tweaked, but I don't agree with some of the wholesale tinkering that Wallach did.
2005-11-11 12:47:12
65.   fanerman
64 - He's getting back to his AAA style. He got away from that in the bigs. That's what he's doing now.
2005-11-11 12:56:07
66.   YLT
Where is all of this speculation about trading Kent coming from? The only place I've seen it discussed is here. Granted, if we were running things, trading Kent makes more sense than trading Milton, but obviously, we are no longer running things.
2005-11-11 12:57:34
67.   Kayaker7
65 So, standing closer to the pitcher, closing up the stance to cover outside the pitches, and widening the stance are what he did in the minors?
2005-11-11 13:01:36
68.   fanerman
67 - That's what they say. I admit I'm probably more optimistic about this than other people, but we need a big bat or two and I've always thought that one of them already plays 1st base for us.
2005-11-11 13:09:56
69.   slackfarmer
59 As much as I agree with your statement that "Players like Choi, Bradley, and Perez have much more value to us than to anybody else. We might as well keep them. ", I'm not so sure an outside GM will agree with us. Depo's firing has made "win now" a priority, so I forsee big name free agents/ trades being brought in at the expense of young talent either on the club or the farm.

What took Evans and Depo years to tee up, Bowden could destroy in one year. Our best hope is Ng.

2005-11-11 13:10:03
70.   HomeDePo
53

Your comment about fans and winning is not necessarily true. In the '90s, Cleveland attendance was insane because of winning. When they were on that huge winning streak this year, their attendance sucked.

It IS about how they win. Fans want to see Jim Thome and Roberto Alomar, not Ben Broussard and Ronnie Belliard.

2005-11-11 13:13:26
71.   fanerman
70 - Blue Think Tank does some nice analysis. But the consensus has been for some time that attendance depends primarily on the success of the year before. The Indians' attendance will most likely go up next year. Jim Thome wasn't always JIM THOME, you know.
2005-11-11 13:15:51
72.   slackfarmer
70 Attendance (at least for the Dodgers) is more dependant on how the club performed on average over a number of years rather than just this year or last year. See my analysis over at Blue Think Tank.
2005-11-11 13:16:40
73.   Bob Timmermann
The Indians attendance was high in mid-1990s because they had a new ball park and the team was terrible for years. So their was a lot of novelty involved in that attendance spike.

The Dodgers haven't had a stretch of futility to match Cleveland's.

2005-11-11 13:16:44
74.   YLT
70

Cleveland's attendance boom in the 90s had something to do with one of the first new ballparks, and they had several very successful seasons in a row. The 2005 Indians didn't have a brand new ballpark, and they've just now started to win. It's not the players. In a few years, V Mart and Hafner and co will be just as beloved as Thome and Alomar were.

2005-11-11 13:17:49
75.   YLT
You guys beat me to it.
2005-11-11 13:17:50
76.   GoBears
Great piece, Jon. And it raised a question for the minor league gurus among us. Jon cites the stat that both teams' farm systems made quantum leaps in the last few years, from the low 20s in terms of rank to the top 2 or 3. My question is, how is that possible? Almost everything I know about the teams' farm systems I've learned here, and I'm willing to believe that all those pitchers and infielders we have in AA really are much better than their predecessors, but are they enough (4-5 pitchers, 4-5 IFers) to move a team's farm system from #28 to #2? Or does the skyrocketing ranking reflect improvements throughout the system, with these 8-10 top prospects as merely the crown jewels? If the latter, I have a hard time understanding how a team could improve that comprehensively that fast (you only get so many draft picks and prospects thru trades). If the former (if it really is the 8-10 primo prospects driving the move up the league tables), that would imply that most farm systems are pretty barren, so that a few guys can be the difference between #28 and #2. Either that, or these 8-10 kids are all going to Cooperstown.

Any thoughts?

2005-11-11 13:20:57
77.   Steve
It's been asked before what the objection to Bowden is. 69 makes the argument exactly. Bowden may do good things, Bowden may do bad things. But above all, Bowden does Bowden things. What was built will be subsumed in torrential ego, a situation not at all unfamiliar to those who witnessed certain on-field shenanigans in '05 (not to mention '04, '03, '02, et. al).
2005-11-11 13:24:42
78.   blue22
76 - I've always assumed that minor league systems are similar to college sports programs. There is almost always a complete overhaul in the roster of players every 4 years or so. This means that a farm system can look drastically different from time period to time period.

Of course, things like recruiting strategies and draft/scouting strategies are the continuities from generation to generation that keeps traditional powers on top.

2005-11-11 13:27:04
79.   fanerman
76 - And it's certainly not just AA. We have plenty of talent in A and the rookie league too. It's probably something more like 5-10 kids per level, which is a pretty significant number considering it's all for one big league club.
2005-11-11 13:40:05
80.   dzzrtRatt
61 How would trading Choi be the "popular" move? Maybe some pundits saw Choi as a pawn in the Tracy/DePodesta war, but the fans, consistently, cheered loudly for him. The guy's got a little touch of charisma. If Choi does have a 'monster year,' here or anywhere else, he will be a big lovable media star for a long time afterwards.

Plus, nowhere on earth are there more Koreans than in LA, except of course N&S Korea.

If McCourt had an issue with DePodesta's decision-making, it was about his subtractions more than his additions. "Why'd you trade LoDuca? Why'd you trade Green? Why'n'tcha sign Beltre?" are the complaints he's hearing. Drew's another one. The Plaschke/Keisser axis of stupidity didn't like him, but the fans seemed happy whenever he came up. And fans (to Plaschke's astonishment I'm sure) recognize the difference between a "gimp" and guy who got hit by a fastball.

2005-11-11 13:42:41
81.   natepurcell
those choi articles, whats the link to them? are they in english? i cant read korean...
2005-11-11 13:44:15
82.   Steve
the difference between a "gimp" and guy who got hit by a fastball.

Drew may, in fact, be both. But people are frustrated that they can't pin the first on him because of the second. They are rendered impotent by circumstance.

2005-11-11 13:44:42
83.   fanerman
81 - There are translations at Blue Think Tank (in the comments).
2005-11-11 13:44:43
84.   dzzrtRatt
Of course, if we trade Choi and he does have a monster year, Keisser can dismiss it by writing "Who's to say Choi would've hit 38 home runs in a Dodger uniform?"
2005-11-11 13:47:02
85.   natepurcell
re 81- thanks a bunch

re 84- I LOLed at that one. the "who's to say" argument will be my defense for everything i encounter this day forward in my life. its completely flawless.

2005-11-11 13:48:55
86.   scareduck
77 - that is to say, Jim Bowden is just another way to spell Kevin Malone. Nonetheless, don't assume that Ng will necessarily be any better. Possible questions on the Dodgers GM multiple choice quiz:

1) You have a minor league system filled with promising talent, but the owner is under immense pressure to win now because of bad luck the previous season. Do you

a) trade every prospect ever mentioned by Baseball America for aging veterans?
b) trade only the top prospects for aging marquee players?
c) tell the owner how his impatience will destroy any hope of winning on a budget?

2) Faced with an inexpensive but serviceable first baseman whom your predecessor acquired but his field manager refused to play, do you

a) trade for Jim Thome?
b) outbid the White Sox for Paul Konerko at $20M/5 years?
c) hand Jeff Kent a first baseman's mitt?
...

Extra credit:

The disassembled parts of a high-powered rifle have been placed in a box on your desk. You will also find an instruction manual, printed in Swahili. In 10 minutes a hungry Bengal tiger will be admitted to the room. Take whatever action you feel appropriate. Be prepared to justify your decision.

2005-11-11 13:50:34
87.   natepurcell
re 86

sounds like its a lose-lose situation. the EC sounds like a scenario from SAW.

2005-11-11 13:50:51
88.   scareduck
86 2b should have been $200M/5 years.
2005-11-11 13:52:33
89.   Steve
86 -- and people want to know why I've turned to drink.
2005-11-11 13:55:09
90.   slackfarmer
89 "and people want to know why I've turned to drink." Is this your response to the extra credit section?
2005-11-11 13:55:20
91.   Kayaker7
86 I'll be assembling the rifle in any fashion such that it makes an effective club. I think I cand ward off a tiger with a club. I've read of a guy who managed to kill an attacking grizzly with a fillet knife. Of course, the guy got hurt pretty badly too.
2005-11-11 13:55:48
92.   Bob Timmermann
I couldn't answer the extra credit because I have to learn in a structured environment.
2005-11-11 13:57:18
93.   Steve
I didn't even get to the extra credit section. The mere idea of McCourt hitting the panic button on JtD is enough.
2005-11-11 14:04:17
94.   slackfarmer
Here's my thought on the extra credit: I'd bring in an equity partner to better afford tiger rifles and/or big bats and good starting pitchers. Then I'd work on lying the groundwork for a Tampa-style ownership coup.
2005-11-11 14:10:34
95.   fanerman
If the GM trades JtD, I think I'll turn to drinking, too.
2005-11-11 14:15:12
96.   slackfarmer
You guys speak about drinking like it's a bad thing. . .

This blog is, after all, about dealing psychologically with the Dodgers.

2005-11-11 14:20:52
97.   heato
Maybe it's been postulated already, but does anyone think the firing of Depo and current lack of a GM are simply an excuse for McCourt to avoid signing a Giles or (God forbid) Konerko? In January, he can say new GM Drew McCourt and his assistant, Tommy Lasorda, did not have the time to contact free agents before they were signed by other teams.
2005-11-11 14:24:45
98.   scareduck
97 - that would assume the McCourts were capable of actual forethought.
2005-11-11 14:30:37
99.   jasonungar05
97 thats exactly what I think.
2005-11-11 14:35:30
100.   jasonungar05
Speaking about his client Paul Konerko, agent Craig Landis said, "He certainly wouldn't sign on anywhere without knowing who the manager is."

At the pace we are going in our GM search, (what we have offically interviewed one person, who already works for us a week ago?) we should have a manager in place by April 1.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-11 14:35:38
101.   Bob Timmermann
98

So by extension, the McCourts could never be convicted of first degree murder?

2005-11-11 14:36:25
102.   dzzrtRatt
98 Amen. I'm a broken record* on this: If you haven't seen the video of McCourt's press conference, watch it now before MLB.com takes it down. To put it charitably, you will not see a man with a plan. You will not see someone who reminds you of Arte Moreno. You will see someone flailing to make sense of his own actions.

*(note to youth--before CDs, music came on records--big plastic disks that you'd drag a needle over to make the sounds. Sometimes the needle would get stuck in a groove, and the same bit of sound would repeat. That's what "sounding like a broken record" refers to.)

2005-11-11 14:39:19
103.   scareduck
102 - the more I read about the McCourts, the more I really, really think Arte was aiming his crack last spring -- "We have a business plan, and it's not like it's written on the back of a napkin" -- straight at Frank McCourt.

Frank McCourt:Dodgers :: CBS:Yankees, for those whose memories go back that far.

2005-11-11 14:39:25
104.   trainwreck
Needles playing music that's insane. Where were their lasers?
2005-11-11 14:41:14
105.   scareduck
101 - hmm, was there ammo with those disassembled rifle parts?
2005-11-11 14:42:12
106.   still bevens
If McCourt is truly as cheap as we all believe he is, why would he mortgage his production-on-a-budget futures for rediculously overpriced vets? Is there a way to pull this off? Excuse my ignorance if this is a totally clueless assertion. Im trying to be optimistic here.
2005-11-11 14:46:46
107.   scareduck
106 - you arrive at the correct question. Damned if he does: expensive veterans == unaffordably high payroll.
Damned if he doesn't: 2006 becomes a lost year. Most of the quality prospects will be ready in 2007.
2005-11-11 14:49:11
108.   trainwreck
So "insider" Steve Phillips predicted where all the top 50 free agents would go.
The Dodgers got Nomar, Bill Mueller, and Joe Randa. Wow we hate Willy Aybar so much we replaced him with three people.
How does this man have a job? How was he an actual GM? What is going on? What is the amateur hour?
2005-11-11 14:49:49
109.   trainwreck
*this
2005-11-11 14:49:57
110.   Bob Timmermann
102

We hepcats would say things like "Time to put a new fang in the tone arm cobra!"

2005-11-11 14:50:44
111.   kevinira
How much flack did DePodesta take for backing out of the Yanks and D-backs trade? And then today...
Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Javier Vazquez filed a formal trade demand, giving the team until March 15 to deal him.

Vazquez had the right to file the demand during the 15 days after the World Series because he was a veteran player traded during a multiyear contract. His agent, Sam Levinson, said Friday that the demand was submitted.
If the Diamondbacks don't deal Vazquez by March 15 and he doesn't withdraw the trade demand, he would become a free agent.

2005-11-11 14:52:44
112.   GoBears
102 Good one, Ratt. But from what I hear from my students, records are back in the club scene. Now, try explaining 8-track tapes. THAT'LL cause some head-scratching.

I agree with scareduck on the McCourt thing. There is no way this long delay is a well-planned ruse to let the free-agent market pass by. In fact, I'm convinced there's no planning here at all. If there was, it was "ooh, let's get rid of DePo so that we can land Pat Gillick!" and once that option died on the vine, it was time to vamp.

What we have now is a 45 minute (45-day?) bongo solo for no other reason than the band forgot how the song ends. Oh, and the bongo player is using only one hand, while holding a mirror in the other.

2005-11-11 14:53:09
113.   dzzrtRatt
104 In those days, son, we used our lasers to fight UFOs.

And we didn't have time for remastering our Rolling Stones albums. Once they were mastered, they stayed mastered.

2005-11-11 14:57:36
114.   trainwreck
113-
or they were used to make light shows that corresponded with Pink Floyd's The Wall. (I have been to one of these)
2005-11-11 15:06:10
115.   bigcpa
111 I just recalled (via Google) that we were expected to flip Vazquez to the White Sox for Konerko, Garland and Marte. Wow- that may have not have salvaged 2005 but it certainly would have cost the White Sox a championship.
2005-11-11 15:18:18
116.   trainwreck
115-
I really do not think there was any validity to that. Why would the White Sox give up their home run hitter after just trading Lee? Also Garland is not a guy I think DePo would go after (walked a lot of guys and gave up home runs).
2005-11-11 15:25:32
117.   scareduck
114 - I lost a girlfriend to a guy who did light shows. Good looker, but in retrospect, not all that.
2005-11-11 15:31:29
118.   gvette
113--Laserium at the Griffith Observatory? Oh, my head is spinning with a nasty 70's flashback!
2005-11-11 15:47:29
119.   socalcardfan
93
95

I don't understand the reference of a "JtD".

Who, or what, is that?

2005-11-11 15:57:56
120.   bigcpa
119 That's "Joel the Destroyer" aka Joel Guzman, aka Unfrozen Dominican Infielder.
2005-11-11 16:00:45
121.   socalcardfan
120 I get it now. Thanks.
2005-11-11 16:08:30
122.   bigcpa
We may need to christen him "Joel the Doubles Hitter" if he slugs .475 again.
2005-11-11 16:29:06
123.   Steve
How is it that McCourt is so incompetent that we're all in mourning on the very day that Darren Dreifort finally became a free agent?
2005-11-11 16:30:00
124.   natepurcell
We may need to christen him "Joel the Doubles Hitter" if he slugs .475 again.

i expect that slg % to rise at least 75 points next year when hes playing in Vegas.

2005-11-11 16:43:39
125.   Im So Blue
Looks like Bobby V is staying in Japan...
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sb20051112j1.htm

Chiba Lotte Marines representative Ryuzo Setoyama said Friday the Pacific League club and manager Bobby Valentine have agreed on a new, three-year contract...

Valentine said earlier he has drawn interest from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Los Angeles Dodgers and Washington.

2005-11-11 16:44:06
126.   trainwreck
Even though Vegas will inflate his stats a lot. I expect him to mature and get better in general when it comes to power. He needs to learn some patience and strike zone management and he can be a force. Tend to forget that he is still younger than LaRoche and others.
2005-11-11 16:45:55
127.   GoBears
124 Yeah, but which is a better predictor of Dodger Stadium SLG? Probably Jax, tho you'd also just expect his ability to increase as he gets older.
2005-11-11 16:48:20
128.   dzzrtRatt
125 How bad is Tommy Lasorda looking right now? Even McCourt must be starting to doubt the old windbag. Gillick--gone. Bowden--not interested. Now not even Lasorda's "son" wants a job with the Dodgers.

All that's left is for Orel Hershiser to take a job with the Padres.

2005-11-11 16:50:38
129.   natepurcell
that is true gobears. DS is probabaly a better hitters park than Jax, and guzman stil slugged .475 as a SS, and as a 20 yr old.

hes only going to improve and gain strength. Ahhh, JtD has so much potential.

2005-11-11 16:51:55
130.   Im So Blue
Re: Dodger-Angel thoughts...
I grew up a Dodger fan. I remember watching the 1963 World Series at our grade school. I could never be a Angel fan for 3 reasons:
3. Thunder Stix
2. the Rally Monkey
1. Rex Hudler
2005-11-11 16:57:07
131.   trainwreck
I hate them thats my main problem with the Angels.
2005-11-11 17:04:56
132.   dzzrtRatt
The Angels kind of snuck up on me. They were always so pathetic, I wanted good things to happen to them, but figured they never would. They just seemed unable to get it together. When the team started to gel with homegrown players in the mid-90s, I was pleased they'd finally gotten it right. Now I find myself rooting for them, although I pay less attention to their ups and downs than I do the Dodgers'.
2005-11-11 17:12:55
133.   Vishal
[132] being an A's fan also makes it kinda hard to like the angels.
2005-11-11 17:15:10
134.   GoBears
132 Ditto here. They also confuse the heck out of me, now that they ARE among the "big boys." The team that was smart enough to know that it was time to cut bait with Glaus and Percival (a year early rather than a year late, yada yada yada) and go get Vlad and Colon and Escobar is the same team that worships at the feet of Darin Erstad, picked up Steve Finley for no apparent reason, and unnecessarily overpaid for Orlando Cabrera.

Confusing.

2005-11-11 17:15:14
135.   trainwreck
133-
Exactly...also how I feel about the Giants.
2005-11-11 17:35:20
136.   dzzrtRatt
I understand all of those moves. Like the Dodgers, the Angels aren't rich at the outfield positions behind Vlad and Garrett. Having to toss out Guillen hurt. They thought Finley was still good; it wasn't insane to think so. Cabrera for the Angels was like Lowe for the Dodgers -- they needed an experienced defensive shortstop who could hit a little, so they had to pay the freight. He looked like an upgrade over Eckstein at the time, and defensively he surely was. I don't think Cabrera will block the upward mobility of Brandon Wood. They'll find a taker for Cabrera when they're ready to dump him. The loyalty to Erstad is, obviously, sheer sentiment, but I get the feeling they're finally ready to "move on." Otherwise, why all the Konerko talk? I'd rather they let Kotchman play, but Scioscia seems to have inherited Tommy's veteran-love.
2005-11-11 17:45:31
137.   scareduck
134 - YOU try to trade a guy hitting as wimpily as Darin Erstad with an $8M/year contract.
2005-11-11 17:48:27
138.   Vishal
[137] fine, he's not very tradeable. but if he can't hit, why play him at first base, when he's a good CF? those don't grow on trees.
2005-11-11 17:48:33
139.   Steve
Maybe Darin Erstad and Darren Dreifort can get together and buy the Dodgers.
2005-11-11 17:53:57
140.   dzzrtRatt
137 Aw, can't they get the Yankees to take him? They need both a first baseman and a centerfielder. He'd do a better job than Giambi in finding Jeter's throws.
2005-11-11 17:59:15
141.   scareduck
138 - it's not at all clear that he can play center with his gimpy hammies. On the other hand, the more vindictive, cynical types among Halo followers have noted that putting him out in center until he gets injured and can't play for the rest of the season might not be a bad thing...

139 - for an agreement to take over the remaining payments.

140 - You could be on to something there...

2005-11-11 18:03:23
142.   gvette
As a 10/5 player, doesn't Erstad have veto over any trade?
2005-11-11 18:03:26
143.   natepurcell
the lakers havent been playing that well at all tonight and still lead the 76ers by 7.
2005-11-11 18:04:27
144.   bigcpa
Funny on so many levels...

"Are you still about winning? If so, then you will applaud the trade of Mike Piazza.... Your team is willing to risk public wrath for a shot at championships again.... Gary Sheffield can be lousy in the clubhouse, but brilliant in the field... Mike Piazza fans will hate this trade. Dodger fans should love it... in his first five seasons, the Dodgers had zero playoff wins with him... You want to blame someone, blame Paul Konerko. If the rookie hotshot had not been such a bust, the Dodgers would have never had a need for Gary Sheffield."

Plaschke- May 16, 1998

2005-11-11 18:09:42
145.   dzzrtRatt
To follow up, we need to find the column where Plaschke advocated dumping Sheffield.

To complete the trifecta, a column blasting Odalis Perez.

And then, as a bonus, a column full of man-love for Konerko's post-season. I'm sure he wrote something about him.

2005-11-11 18:10:40
146.   deburns
There have been a lot of comments on this site,directly and by way of links, about the Konerko/Shaw trade, but I can't recall anyone pointing out that Konerko was shuffled off by the Reds to the White Sox in a relatively short time. So did the Red's really hornswoggle the Dodgers on that deal? The question doesn't mean that LA wasn't impatient with Konerko's development, of course.
2005-11-11 18:10:54
147.   natepurcell
igudola owned kobe that half. wow that was impressive.
2005-11-11 18:18:53
148.   gvette
145--Also there's that '97 column where Plaschke took out after Piazza for being the typical self centered modern athlete by stiffing a kid asking for an autograph.

Followed by the column where Plaschke had to admit that the kid made up the story.

(Guess Bill was too busy to actually check the facts before going with a story that fit his agenda.)

2005-11-11 18:21:51
149.   GoBears
YOU try to trade a guy hitting as wimpily as Darin Erstad with an $8M/year contract.

Thanks for making my point. I'd add that if you have to play him, put him in CF, where he's much more valuable. But for my money (or Arte's), just release him. Paying Erstad not to play makes the team better than paying him to play. He's WORSE than his replacement!

And don't get me started on the "waste 3 roster spots on mediocre catchers" idiocy.

So yeah, the Angels are better than the Dodgers. But they would be a lot better if they didn't make so many obviously dumb moves.

2005-11-11 18:23:56
150.   scareduck
145 - March 13, 2001:

------------
Dodger playoff hopes were slim even before Sheffield opened his pie hole.

The only thing that can be saved now is respectability.

If the Dodgers trade Sheffield for prospects and struggle, at least they can say they restored the franchise with honor, not to mention a future.
---------------

September 18, 2003:

---------------
"I want to be prepared 100% to be out there," Perez said. "I don't want to be risking one thing when I know it's not good. I want to go out there confident and knowing I'm going to pitch a good game."

As Perez spoke these words behind the batting cage before the game, Shawn Green was carrying his damaged right shoulder into the clubhouse, Adrian Beltre was dragging his sore legs into the dugout, and Dave Roberts was working his tender hamstring down the foul line.

On a Dodger team that is dirt-caked and crawling toward the finish line, if Perez needs to feel 100%, then that would make him the only one.

Perez asking out of this game is like Gary Sheffield being ejected in the first inning of a late-season game against the Diamondbacks two years ago.
----------------

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-11 18:27:01
151.   bigcpa
The mere mention of Sheffield as a Dodger reminds me how much I want to see Bradley stick around.
2005-11-11 18:27:05
152.   John A
146 No, it means that Bowden undervalued Konerko as much as Lasorda did. Two midjudgments of talent don't make a right. The White Sox finally had enough gumption to show a little patience with a guy who had an impressive minor league pedigree...and they didn't buy into Pastaman's bs about a bum hip.
2005-11-11 18:31:10
153.   dzzrtRatt
I think Konerko had a good first season with the Sox. It paid off right away for them.

Plaschke called Konerko a bust after he'd played, what, part-time for less than half a season? And then blamed him for somehow forcing them to trade Piazza?

What editor lets this guy keep his gig? There are 20 people on this site alone who are better informed and better writers.

2005-11-11 18:31:30
154.   GoBears
147 Iguodala is the biggest surprise in the NBA for me. He was an amazing athlete in college, but a lousy basketball player. But he's a lot better now. Granted, life is easier when you have Iverson drawing triple-teams, but I really think he's better suited to the pros than college AND has really improved on both ends of the floor.
2005-11-11 18:36:13
155.   gvette
153--At the time that Plaschke wrote that article, Konerko ('97 BA Player of the Year) had around 70 MLB at bats, and was being shuffled between his natural 1B, to 3B and even the outfield (to try and keep Karros in the lineup).

Amazing how that potentially "career ending" hip defect that Lasorda mentioned after the trade never came back to haunt Konerko.

2005-11-11 18:37:53
156.   trainwreck
Richard Jefferson was like that as well. He was a guy with great athletic ability and potential but really underperformed at Arizona. He got into a good situation in the NBA and has become a much better player. Arizona gets some of the most talented players in the country and they just develop at different rates so it is not really surprising.
2005-11-11 18:39:04
157.   Steve
The team that signs Rafael Furcal just got stupid with a bullet.
2005-11-11 18:41:06
158.   dzzrtRatt
Funny how Plaschke's Dodger columns all end up pushing Tommy's pet issues. Tommy loved Eric Karros not wisely, but too well.

off-topic, but notable: Moammar Kaddafi is now a blogger:

http://tinyurl.com/bcuh3

2005-11-11 18:43:49
159.   dzzrtRatt
"Stupid with a Bullet"

Good title for a retro crime movie.

2005-11-11 18:44:32
160.   the OZ
158 blows me away.
2005-11-11 18:45:56
161.   John A
While we're reminiscing about the Lasorda-Acting-GM-era, Tommy also doesn't get enough "credit" for bringing Adrian Beltre up to the bigs at age 19. Adrian was awful in his first, 195-at-bat MLB season and so-so in his second season. If Tommy had allowed Beltre a normal period of minor league development, all these past controversies about the Dodgers resigning Beltre would still be somewhere off in the future. Think Tommy ever mentions THAT to Frank?
2005-11-11 18:46:48
162.   natepurcell
"The New York Mets, Chicago Cubs and Kansas City Royals have already shown interest in Furcal and, according to Kinzer, the New York Yankees have also contacted him to find out if Furcal would consider playing center field."

LOL

2005-11-11 18:50:48
163.   gvette
With Bowden and Valentine staying away, Tommy may need to make Karros his new protege. Besides, Karros' main nemesis (Tracy,Evans, etc) are long gone.

EK can give his patented motivational speech to the team that they shouldn't worry about losing lots of games in the first half, because it's still "early".

2005-11-11 18:51:56
164.   scareduck
161 - we might even be talking about the failed minor league career of Adrian Beltre, the star who might have been, save for his addiction to swinging at the low outside slider...
2005-11-11 18:54:20
165.   natepurcell
has furcal ever played CF before?

i mean, if teams are thinking about giving him a 5 yr 50 mil deal to play CF, wouldnt they want to know that he has done it well in the past?

2005-11-11 18:58:16
166.   John A
164 Doubt it. Belly was a minor league stud who only got to play a handful of games above A-ball. Giving him more seasoning would have meant that the Dodgers could have at least controlled his contract through the 2005 season...and maybe longer.
2005-11-11 19:01:57
167.   natepurcell
lakers are ridicously frustrating.
2005-11-11 19:06:05
168.   trainwreck
They just turn the ball over way too much.
2005-11-11 19:07:04
169.   natepurcell
and that is what is making them so frustrating.
2005-11-11 19:07:14
170.   scareduck
166 - a minor league stud who never played a day in AAA?

http://tinyurl.com/dsss8

I dunno. Sure, at 19 he was damned impressive. But I wonder whether someone else would have maybe subjected him to better quality breaking stuff, and possibly slowed him down appreciably, or maybe even stalled him.

2005-11-11 19:15:11
171.   John A
170 Where does my post say he NEVER played at AAA? I'd also say it's unlikely that a guy who became a decent major league hitter (and a great one in 2004) would have "stalled out" in the minors. Beltre actually had good plate discipline during most of his time in the minor leagues. And I think the more important point is this: would you rather have a season of Beltre at age 19 or age 26?
2005-11-11 19:21:37
172.   scareduck
171 - Where does my post say he NEVER played at AAA?

Whoa, I never said it did.

And I think the more important point is this: would you rather have a season of Beltre at age 19 or age 26?

At this point, does it matter?

2005-11-11 19:28:40
173.   John A
172 Sorry if I misunderstood your point about AAA.

At this point, does it matter? Not really. But it would matter now if a self-aggrandizing Tommy Lasorda hadn't made a foolish decision back in '98. It just strikes me as unfair that DePo got hammered for dealing realistically with the fruits of Tommy's decision, while the Plaschke's of the world never mention the reason that Belly was even an FA at age 26.

2005-11-11 19:31:48
174.   dzzrtRatt
Don't ever expect the press to be fair. They've got a horse to ride, they ride it all the way. To Plaschke, sabermetrics is bad for baseball, and especially bad for the good ol' Dodgers. He's not accountable for where that bias leads.

This is why God invented the Internet. To render the Plaschkes of the world less relevant. Unfortunately, McCourt took him more seriously than was warranted, and here we are. McCourt's weakness is at the bottom of all this.

2005-11-11 19:31:54
175.   bokonon42
BOO! Muammar's site promises email (like a Muammarian hotmail? How cool would that be?), "Data Bases", Audio and Video, but does it deliver? No. Dead links; empty promises.
2005-11-11 19:34:38
176.   John A
McCourt's weakness is at the bottom of all this. True! But Tommy certainly has helped make it easier for McCourt to fail :)
2005-11-11 19:43:31
177.   John A
The Lakers must be rallying :)
Good night!
2005-11-11 19:53:08
178.   natepurcell
the new article on dodgers.com implies we are also looking at dayton moore, assistant GM of the braves and head of player development and scouting.

if we really are, he would be a excellent choice. He would continue depos plan of building from within and maybe bring over the braves winning attitude.

2005-11-11 19:56:15
179.   natepurcell
we do have competition for him, red sox are interviewing him as well.
2005-11-11 20:09:04
180.   DrBox
152 -That's not how it happened.
The Sox lost patience with Mike Cameron; the Reds, after the Dodgers, lost patience with Konerko. so Cameron was swapped for Konerko and everyone was happy.
2005-11-11 20:34:55
181.   Eric L
180 The Reds idea of patience must be pretty lousy. He had all of 73 ABs for the Reds (while he had 144 with the Dodgers).
2005-11-11 20:43:32
182.   Fallout
155. gvette

It must have been his hip in 2003 when he hit .234 and grounded into 28DPs. :)

2005-11-11 21:40:55
183.   slackfarmer
158 Othello huh?
2005-11-11 21:51:46
184.   Vishal
[158] that's hilarious. thanks for posting it. all the pictures of him are BRILLIANT.
2005-11-12 06:36:13
185.   Steelyeri
158- The scroll bar is on the wrong side.
2005-11-14 15:25:26
186.   Steve-o
Bob Timmermann:

You are right. My sister and I got to name him. I was 5 years old when Orel Hershiser and the Dogders won it in 88. And so that year, when he was born, that was only name we could come up with.

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