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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Ng to Stay ... And Other Notes About Colletti's Debut
2005-11-16 13:32
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

First, this bit of news: Kim Ng said at today's Ned Colletti press conference that she will stay with the Dodgers, according to MLB.com.

"I've been here for four years and I want to be part of it," said Ng. "There are a lot of good things happening here on the baseball side."

And so, a vote of confidence for the Dodgers, a vote that means a great deal to me.

* * *

I was listening to the audio from Colletti's press conference, and before getting into the specifics of what kind of general manager he might be, what came through was what a great moment this is for him - and I mean this in the best possible way. It's the kind of satisfying career achievement, after years of work, that most anyone can appreciate. Moreover, as he went on speaking, Colletti succeeded in displaying more humility in one interview than Jim Tracy displayed all year.

Certainly, Dodger owner Frank McCourt found him endearing.

"Ned and I hit it off," said McCourt, according to Ken Gurnick's recap. "We had chemistry immediately and that's a very good sign."

So, we have the pleasantries, which are very nice. Of course, they're meaningless. Did McCourt and Paul DePodesta not hit it off? Did McCourt and Gary Miereanu or Lon Rosen not hit it off? Good dinner conversation isn't going to mean much over the next two years, compared to wins and revenues.

(Quick digression: Is there any documentation of Colletti and Tommy Lasorda meeting? I assume it must have happened - but Lasorda appears to be keeping a lower profile now than he did in October. I still suspect Lasorda will get to sign off on the next Dodger manager. Because everyone seems to want someone with experience and past success, Orel Hershiser would seem to be off the list. And with Ng staying, I wonder what job the Dodgers can offer Hershiser. Will the movement to repopulate the front office with True Dodgers die off this quickly? Not that True Dodgers can't be born of imports - they just have to help the cause.)

Anyway, the hiring of Colletti is somewhat like the approval of a Supreme Court justice. People are projecting their own fears or desires onto Colletti based on scraps from his past, but I'm not sure any of us can really know how he'll act wearing the black robe until he throws it over his sport coat.

Speaking about chemistry, Colletti starts off in what to me is a progressive frame of mind, but then almost completely reverses direction:

"I think it's tough to have a terrible team and say, 'We've got great chemistry,' " Colletti said. "Chemistry is really a byproduct, I believe, of winning. Everybody's got a different approach. Jimmy Frey used to tell me, 'Chemistry is the next day's starting pitcher. Chemistry is a three-run homer in the eighth.'

"But chemistry is important, because chemistry is really the character of the people. That, to me, is vitally important. The last few years, the organization I was with, we were highly successful not because we had the highest payroll or because we had the greatest players, but we hand-picked who went to that club. We didn't just take anybody. And we probably passed on more talented players, statistically talented players, players that had more star power, more allure, but who at the end of the day weren't going to be able to withstand a whole season."

The dissonance within this quote is why I basically don't even want to spend the time trying to predict what Colletti will do. Colletti's former team relied on the Times Square 100,000-watt billboard version of a more talented player, a statistically talented player, a player that had more star power, more allure, but who at the end of the day wasn't going to be able to withstand a whole season, in Barry Bonds. The Giants would not have been the Giants without that player - as 87 losses in 2005 proved. The Giants endured Bonds and a secondary chemistry question mark in A.J. Pierzynski in 2004 (giving up key prospects like Joe Nathan and Francisco Liriano to get him) en route to winning 91 games - and finishing behind the Dodgers. So what does it all mean?

My sense is that Colletti will go after any guy he feels can help the Dodgers, and use his public relations skills and even his own persona to reposition that guy as a solution, not a problem. Colletti will do so with the same magic that overnight turned Jeff Kent into the most respected Dodger, according to Bill Plaschke of the Times, instead of the ill-fitting malcontent Kent supposedly was a year ago when DePodesta signed him.

I would be less concerned about Colletti seeking out a talentless saint nice guy than finding a guy who legitimately has something to contribute, but overpaying for him.

Hee Seop Choi will prove to be an interesting test case. I'm pretty sure Colletti said today that one of the Dodgers' needs was at a "corner of the infield," not corners - perhaps meaning third base. Still, Choi may not have a future as a Dodger - who in the organization will have his back now?

What's funny is that few players illustrate the fallacy of the character argument better than Choi. The guy is popular among the fans, popular among his teammates, humble, yet he's been a target of the "character" columnists since Day 1.

Amid the other needs of the organization, Colletti will see if he can do better than Choi at first base. He will see if he can use Choi to fulfill those other needs. And ultimately, he might decide that Choi is the best fit at first base for the 2006 Dodgers. But it just goes to show how wide open the possibilities are, particularly in an offseason with no surplus of quality in the free agent market.

There's just no way to know about Colletti yet. And though I used to be someone who would fear the worst so I could be pleasantly surprised, now I'd rather just sit back and wait for it to happen. I've already learned I don't know everything, and I'm not even 40 yet.

My closing thought is just that I still think DePodesta was treated very badly. And even with him gone, I'm not reassured that the dysfunction of the Dodger working environment has been solved, or even addressed. Ng's decision to remain a Dodger - as much as it may be predicated on her not wanting to job-hunt during the holidays - is as good a piece of news as any we've had today.

Comments (188)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-16 15:15:18
1.   bhsportsguy
From KSPN710:
18-22 hours with the McCourts, talk about a tough interview.
2005-11-16 15:20:06
2.   popup
Excellent post Jon. What a fabulous place this is to discuss Dodger baseball.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-11-16 15:21:10
3.   D4P
"...but I'm not sure any of us can really know how he'll act wearing the black robe until he throws it over his sport coat."

I tend to picture denim cut-offs under those robes...

2005-11-16 15:22:25
4.   King of the Hobos
Posted on the other thread, the Mason and Ireland interview:

Colletti is prepared to join the dark side, and Colletti can't stand Sabean (who Mason or Ireland called a jackass). They're just messing around

Colletti wouldn't really answer a question regarding using his knowledge of Sabean and the Giants against them. He said Tracy could go against us just as easy

Colletti isn't worried about ending up like DePo. He said he asks a lot of questions (said this a few times). He claims he is not someone who can't read or understand the newspaper. He spent 5-6 hours with Frank last week, 9-10 on Monday, and 2-3 more with Jamie yesterday. He's not an introvert, that's for sure

He won't admit he's more traditional than DePo, but he did say he needs to know everything about a player before signing them, including how they live their lives. He made several comments that clearly go against Bradley

The Orel rumors are untrue according to Colletti. A new manager will be judged like a new player, then he started naming off the same things he said during the press conference.

Our farm system is "on the verge of being very good." What does that mean? He seems to like the prospects, but doesn't want the entire team to be rookies. A new manager must be open minded about rookies. Hopefully that means no Piniella or Baker. He will start his phone calls in the next hour or two, and hopes to have efveryone notified by tomorrow

He can't answer a question about payroll. He claims he's not being evasive. He brought up numerous expensive players to McCourt, and McCourt assured him he could get who he wanted. I wouldn't completely trust McCourt

Kent isn't really a leader, just a hard worker. He signed Kent originally because some other executives said he was going to be very good, despite being quiet, and wants as many Kents as possible

Man does he talk a lot.

2005-11-16 15:26:35
5.   trainwreck
So McCourt went to the other extreme and went with someone who will not shut up. The fatter faced Kevin Malone comparison is becoming more and more accurate.
2005-11-16 15:29:10
6.   Curtis Lowe
Jon, in your post you mentioned Lasorda being quiet about Colletti, Lasordas Blog is updated on Dodgers.com if that helps at all.
2005-11-16 15:32:01
7.   King of the Hobos
Steve Phillips will now do a mock press conference for Mason and Ireland (it will be new, Mason and Ireland will be the reporters).

I don't knwo the difference between Mason and Ireland, but one of them summed the interview up nicely, Colletti talked a long time and said nothing

Phillips likes Colletti, but doesn't think he can get things together. He was a rational choice based on what McCourt had left to choose from

2005-11-16 15:34:13
8.   bigcpa
4 The whole deep-background check thing comes off to me like an aversion to uncertainty and risk-taking. This is why the D'Backs acquired and extended Shawn Green. By definition guys like Navarro and Choi aren't going to have a long list of character references throughout major league clubhouses and front offices. To me this is the curse of being in a big market- you can't give 500 ab's to a guy and see if you have the next Jason Bay.
2005-11-16 15:35:12
9.   Bob Timmermann
Plaschke didn't put Kent on a pedestal overnight. His 9/11/05 column lauded Kent. It was Part 3 of his "Dodgers and character" trilogy. Part 1 was McCourt's mea culpa, Part 2 was "Milton Bradley: Enemy of the State" and Part 3 was "Kent: The only guy on the Dodgers who tries hard"
2005-11-16 15:35:18
10.   jasonungar05
Jon you are one heck of a writer. Thanks so much for all that you do.

I am excited in that at least we can move forward instead of being stuck with nowhere to go.

2005-11-16 15:35:24
11.   D4P
8
But you CAN give 500 ABs to Jason Phillips.
2005-11-16 15:40:30
12.   Steve
Phillips likes Colletti, but doesn't think he can get things together.

The idiot caucus is split.

2005-11-16 15:42:09
13.   Bob Timmermann
Kim Ng's husband better get her a nice gift for her birthday tomorrow to keep her from getting too bummed about losing out on a promotion.
2005-11-16 15:42:47
14.   natepurcell
if colletti should let logan white handle all talent evaluations.
2005-11-16 15:43:54
15.   SMY
Kim Ng may say that, but if the Red Sox offered her their GM job I have a hard time seeing her turn it down.
2005-11-16 15:45:47
16.   Bob Timmermann
I would be very surprised if Ng were offered the GM job in Boston. I can't picture an organization of that size taking that much of a chance.
2005-11-16 15:47:08
17.   Jon Weisman
15 - Oh, sure. The point is, she isn't quitting out of disgust.
2005-11-16 15:49:19
18.   Steve
17 -- which doesn't say much for her.
2005-11-16 15:53:32
19.   Uncle Miltie
Excellent write up Jon. Hearing that Ng is coming back is somewhat comforting. Colletti seems to be good with the media; maybe he should have stuck to being a PR guy.
2005-11-16 15:55:20
20.   Im So Blue
Did anyone notice that she said,

"There are a lot of good things happening here on the baseball side."

So what's happening on the non-baseball side?

2005-11-16 15:55:56
21.   SMY
16 No, I don't really think so either. But she's at least in the discussion, apparently.
2005-11-16 15:55:58
22.   Robert Fiore
I think after two years we can begin to answer the question of what kind of owners the McCourts are. There were I believe two main questions. First, are they, as one anecdotal account had it, incompetent? I don't think "incompetent" is exactly the mot juste, though you can see where that judgment comes from. The matter of building seats without checking the sight lines is an example of what gave them that reputation. The thing is, people who are incompetent might get rich, but they don't stay rich. I think a better term would be "flaky", but their flakiness is balanced by prudence. Thus the Kagemusha approach to the famous property in Boston. Indeed, flaky though it may seem, dumping DePodesta could be seen as a reflection of their prudence: They were at the point of no return as far as committing themselves to DePodesta's strategies was concerned, the questionable move of hiring Terry Collins as manager rang alarm bells, and they resolved to take a less risky approach before it was too late. The downside of this is, if they were truly incompetent then they wouldn't own the team for long. If they are competent but flaky they could run the team poorly for years. This is particularly disheartening after we've spent so many years in the wilderness and it seemed as though we were almost out.

The other question is, do they have enough money to run a baseball team? The answer seems to be, yes, but not as a large market team. The Dodgers are beginning to look like the Anaheim Angels of Los Angeles, a team run more or less on the same lines as the Angels were before their breakthrough. The thing is, the Dodgers are at a point where they could win with a middle class payroll.

The problem is not that the McCourt's don't have good impulses but that they seem to have a bad impulse for every good one. On the one hand they restore the natural warning track and eliminate that irksome saddleback pattern behind home plate and on the other they create a ballpark ambience of the most extreme vulgarity. They want to project an old school image, but they do so through pointless or counterproductive gestures like taking the names off the jerseys and putting the team in "throwback" jerseys that no Dodger team ever wore. They adopt a cutting edge approach to management then do a 180 when the pressure is on. What we have to hope for right now is that their good impulses outweigh the bad, and that hiring Colletti was one of the good impulses.

2005-11-16 15:57:44
23.   trainwreck
Hopefully between Ng, Smith, and White they can explain to Flanders that statistics play a bigger role in evaluating talent then Ned seems to think right now.
2005-11-16 15:58:20
24.   zappala
Is character the same thing as chemistry? It seemed to me that Colletti was saying he didn't believe in chemistry (everyone in the clubhouse being best friends) but values character (playing hard, being willing to learn, not causing publicity problems). I took his comment about "being able to make it through the whole season" as being less about stamina/injuries and more about mental makeup (pressing when you go into a slump) and not getting suspended for detrimental conduct. Taking it that way might help to reduce the dissonance.
2005-11-16 16:00:32
25.   Michael Green
Hi. It's great to be aboard, and I think this blog is terrific. Whether or not I agree with what Jon and the other contributors say, I learn and think. And I really think that the most important thing the front office has to do is to make sure that Vin Scully doesn't retire at the end of his current contract, because that will be the whole ball game.

As to the new GM, McCourt hasn't carved out an impressive track record, but Fox certainly didn't, and what Bob Daly did can be endlessly debated. DePodesta did not get a fair chance to strut his stuff, but that's over and now we have to give Colletti a fair chance.

A couple of additional points. One is that we tend to wax too nostalgic about Peter O'Malley. While I think he was terrific, I also spent a lot of time from 1988 on wondering what was wrong. And remember that during all of those years of stability under Walter Alston, Walter O'Malley brought in several high-profile coaches (Dressen and Durocher, for example) and put him on the hot seat. The history of the Dodgers has been more controversial than many tend to remember.

Now I will indulge my cynical, nasty streak and say that if you want to know how Lasorda really feels about Colletti, or anything else, read Plaschke.

2005-11-16 16:00:33
26.   Jacob L
15-18, etc.

I'm not sure Boston is the best place for Kim Ng to cut her teeth as a GM. You think we have a boorish, petty, and vicious press corps here? They got a bit of that old ownership/management dysfunction goin on, too. That's not at all to say she can't handle it because of her gender, more like I'm not sure who can handle that job.

That said, you can only cheerfully stay put while you get passed over for promotions so many times. If I were her, I'd say whatever makes me look good (like what she said today), interview for whatever I can, and take the first train out of town that doesn't end up in Boston.

2005-11-16 16:01:43
27.   Jon Weisman
22 - I thought that was an excellent post, Robert. Another interpretation is that the good or bad of some of their decisions is achieved accidentally - they do some things on impulse without really understanding how rational they are. They also seem, in some respects, to have too many impulses. In any case, I really think you captured their ownership quite well.
2005-11-16 16:04:38
28.   Steve
"Now I will indulge my cynical, nasty streak and say that if you want to know how Lasorda really feels about Colletti, or anything else, read Plaschke."

Nicely said. I wondered where that out-of-left-field reference to Jim Fregosi (not to mention Jim Fregosi, the "winner") came from. I think you nailed it.

2005-11-16 16:04:42
29.   Vishal
The idiot caucus is split.

hahahahah

2005-11-16 16:09:37
30.   molokai
26
I could see her ending up in Boston as an assistant GM. Remember they lost both the GM and the AGM. She shouldn't stay in LA, it will be to uncomfortable for both of them.
2005-11-16 16:10:13
31.   jasonungar05
"I take nothing for granted. I know the value of finances, I know the value of people. I've had to be street-smart since I was a little kid," Colletti said. "I've had to know who's right, who's wrong, who's pulling my leg, who's lying to me, who's got integrity, who I can trust.

So you allow yourself to be hired by Frank McCourt?

2005-11-16 16:17:00
32.   Bob Timmermann
I grew up in L.A. and the road by my house went north-south so I grew up avenue-smart.
2005-11-16 16:19:23
33.   King of the Hobos
Because something figures to happen soon...

The Dodgers have 33 players on their 40 man roster. Grabowski, Ross, Edwards, and Myrow are all on the roster still. Can we assume Colletti removes them? Also, what impact do FAs offered arbitration have? I heard somewhere that FAs offered arbitration remain on the 40 man roster for the Rule 5, but this could be wrong. The arbitration deadline in the 7th, thew Rule 5 is the 8th

2005-11-16 16:24:00
34.   Jon Weisman
32 - LOL I was first drive-smart, then lane-smart for two decades or so.
2005-11-16 16:25:17
35.   gvette
25--Great post, but how could you prevent Vin Scully, who is in his 80's, from retiring if he wanted to?

28--Steve, one of the traveling circus of ESPN idiots (Buster Olney) was mentioning on the radio that Fregosi was a Colletti favorite. Time to break out those old Angels hats with the halos on the top?

Hmm..Colletti/Fregosi/Lasorda; bad news for those conspiracy theorist posters who continue to mutter about a sinister "Italian connection". (Somehow DePodesta missed the membership cut.)

2005-11-16 16:28:38
36.   Johnson
25 And I really think that the most important thing the front office has to do is to make sure that Vin Scully doesn't retire at the end of his current contract, because that will be the whole ball game.

I have to disagree here. Vin Scully will be 78 years old next season - 13 years past retirement age. If he chooses to walk away and do something else that he loves during the last years of his life, be it retire to a tropical island or move in next door to his grandkids, God bless him. He may be the voice of the Dodgers, but nothing lasts forever. You simply can't blame the front office if Scully opts for a long-earned retirement. I would rather his fans recognize that's it's his time to let go, on his terms.

In fact, the idea that the McCourts would try to pressure an octogenarian into continuing to slave away because he's good PR is frankly inhuman. Let him go. He deserves it.

2005-11-16 16:28:46
37.   Bob Timmermann
One of my first jobs as a librarian was in Valencia. I once told a coworker that I had to find a kid a book on sex ed so he wouldn't have to learn the info on the paseos.

Jim Fregosi would be a very, very, very odd choice. But nothing would surprise me anymore.

The new manager is also going to have to hire a whole new coaching staff too. I don't think anyone had their contract renewed or they all left for Pittsburgh.

2005-11-16 16:29:20
38.   Adam
I heard Lasorda being interviewed on Tony Bruno this morning just after the Colleti press conference ended. It was very depressing. I certainly got the impression that Lasorda had helped pick him (the Italian connection?). But, mostly Lasorda just talked about himself and how much he had to offer to the team. He was effusive in his praise for the McCourts, since they brought him (Lasorda) back in as chief advisor. When asked if he wanted to be GM, he said no, because he had already reached the pinnacle in Baseball (induction in the hall of fame) and "there was nowhere left for him to go but heaven." Anyhow, the whole interview made my stomach turn. And, it makes me very concerned about this new GM.

On a side note, I thought Colletti aquitted himself quite well during the press conference. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

2005-11-16 16:30:13
39.   Steve
While I respect everyone here who is trying to hold out hope, I simply can't believe there is any.
2005-11-16 16:33:41
40.   Jon Weisman
Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane.

---

Remember, Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.

---

I find I'm so excited, I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it is the excitement only a free man can feel, a free man at the start of a long journey whose conclusion is uncertain. I hope I can make it across the border. I hope to see my friend, and shake his hand. I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams. I hope.

2005-11-16 16:35:24
41.   fanerman
39 - I'm trying but I haven't found any yet.
2005-11-16 16:35:39
42.   gvette
39--Spoken like a man who;
a) Has given up all reason to live and is waiting for a meteor to strike the earth to end his pain;

or

b)someone who knows that the bar results will be out in a week or so.

2005-11-16 16:36:08
43.   D4P
39
It's hard to love there's so much to hate
Hanging on to hope when there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above say it's much too late
So maybe we should all be praying for time
2005-11-16 16:36:11
44.   Linkmeister
Jon, your memory is better than mine. All I could think of was Corinthians:

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Or maybe that sitcom with Kelly Ripa and the other blonde (who IS that? Was she the girl on Night Court?), Hope and Faith.

2005-11-16 16:36:50
45.   Steve
42 -- good man.
2005-11-16 16:39:53
46.   Bob Timmermann
Hope is a thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings a tune without words
And never stops at all.

And sweetest, in the gale, is heard
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That keeps so many warm.

I've heard it in the chilliest land
And on the strangest sea
Yet, never, in extremity
It ask a crumb of me.

2005-11-16 16:39:58
47.   Humma Kavula
It's a thing with feathers.

Also, it floats.

2005-11-16 16:40:32
48.   Bob Timmermann
44
Faith Ford
2005-11-16 16:40:38
49.   Humma Kavula
five seconds.
2005-11-16 16:40:43
50.   LAT
13. Bob, I would hope Frank would get Kim Ng a nice birthday gift to keep her from getting too bummed. That gift should be a fat bonus. (but I doubt it)
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-16 16:42:15
51.   Jon Weisman
44 - Faith Ford - she was on "Murphy Brown"
2005-11-16 16:42:32
52.   Xeifrank
Probably already mentioned, but 'Catfish Stew' blog has a funny article up about Colletti. It's on Jon's sidebar. The TINSTAAPP link is great. vr, Xei
2005-11-16 16:44:59
53.   Jon Weisman
103 seconds, but I provided context
2005-11-16 16:45:34
54.   Linkmeister
48, 51 Ah, that's right. I watched Night Court (our local ABC station puts reruns on between the late local news and Nightline) more than I did Murphy Brown, but thanks to you guys I remember her now.
2005-11-16 16:45:49
55.   bhsportsguy
Any ideas on who he has in mind since he wants to get permission to speak to them. I think we can rule out anyone who has not been involved with a sucessful team at some point. It also sounded like the anti-Tracy type because he did not want someone who would be stubborn (Phillips at 1B) and not let young guys learn on the job.

Jon, who were the early candidates that the board talked about? I don't think there was anyone in the final Depo 3 (Collins, Hershiser and Trammell) that fits his profile. Could Bud Black or even Dusty Baker be in the picture.

2005-11-16 16:47:16
56.   Steve
I meant to bring this up over at 6-4-2 too, but can we just have a Dusty Baker moratorium for like, two weeks? Just ignore the fact that this is almost certain to happen now?
2005-11-16 16:48:53
57.   Adam
Please don't say that Steve. It's too painful...
2005-11-16 16:51:14
58.   Bob Timmermann
If Dusty Baker is in the picture, then I need to readjust my set.

Why would Black be more qualified than Hershiser?

2005-11-16 16:51:30
59.   Xeifrank
Rotoworld has their trade predictions up now. They are just predictions/guesses so take with a grain of salt (or in Steve's case a case of beer).

They have Milton Bradley being traded to the Yankees for someone named Melky Cabrera that I've never heard of. They have Abreu to the Dodgers for Derek Lowe and Andy LaRoche (but they have this one as doubtful). Other Dodger trade candidates mentioned were Choi and APerez. They even mentioned the outside possibility of Lowell being traded to LAD.
vr, Xei

2005-11-16 16:52:18
60.   Steve
Who else fits the description? Who bleeds Dodger blue and Giant orange? Who already brought this up during this season? Who has been there for the "last" game? If Colletti isn't just blowing smoke up everyone's $$$ (and, let's face it, this appears to be the only reason he was hired, because he can speak the media's language of meaningless gasbaggery -- He wants to improve the team immediately through trades and free agency -- what amazing insight into the heart of a winner), Dusty Baker is the guy he's talking about.

This may in fact be the Timmermann Prophecy writ true. Be careful what you ask for, Steve, you just might get it.

2005-11-16 16:53:17
61.   Vishal
[56] maybe firedustybaker.blogspot.com would just transfer ownership to us or something.
2005-11-16 16:53:38
62.   D4P
60
Roger Craig...?
2005-11-16 16:53:54
63.   Jacob L
Didn't Colletti say something, though, about letting young players play? Wouldn't that rule out Baker? Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? (Man, Dusty Baker used to be one of my favorite players.)
2005-11-16 16:54:21
64.   Vishal
[59] anyone but lowell. i have a feeling that aybar in 4 weeks was better than lowell's' whole season last year.
2005-11-16 16:55:07
65.   LAT
56. NO NO and NO!!! That cannot happen. I would rather have JT than DB. (And that is not hyperbole. I mean it.)
2005-11-16 16:57:34
66.   stubbs
A Couple Questions Now that Colletti is onboard:

-Is Gagne a Dodger now in '07?
-Will Colletti bring back Bradley and pacify kent like he did with Bonds?
-Is there anything available that makes us a real contender in '06? If not, will Colletti punt the year for '07?

2005-11-16 16:57:40
67.   Bob Timmermann
Melky Cabrera was a brief Yankees experiment in center field. He wasn't very good. He made Bubba Crosby look like Carlos Beltran.

I still can't believe Baker would want to come back to the Dodgers. He didn't exactly leave on good terms, being accused of drug abuse and all that.

2005-11-16 16:57:55
68.   dzzrtRatt
Seems like there's been a bit of a "revolution of rising expectations" concerning Ng. She's 36. She's qualified to be a GM, certainly, but it's no shame for her to stay and try to learn what she can from Colletti rather than quitting in a huff. There are only 30 jobs better than her current job in all of baseball. She will get her chance.
2005-11-16 16:59:34
69.   Xeifrank
Is there anything available that makes us a real contender in '06?

Yes... Padres, Giants, Rockies and Diamondbacks. vr, Xei

2005-11-16 17:00:34
70.   Bob Timmermann
Just 30 jobs better? Wouldn't some team's AGM jobs be better than being the GM for the Royals or Pirates?
2005-11-16 17:01:21
71.   Steve
Roger Craig is going to be Jim Fregosi's pitching coach.
2005-11-16 17:01:31
72.   LAT
Ratt there are really 59 jobs in baseball better than hers. 30 GM positions and an AGM job with any team not owned by the McCourts.
2005-11-16 17:02:25
73.   LAT
Darn Bob! 57 secs!
2005-11-16 17:03:19
74.   D4P
71
Where does that leave Perranoski?
2005-11-16 17:05:05
75.   stubbs
How does the Asst GM on one of the worst teams in baseball even get considered for a head job. Bringing back Dan Evans would have been quite entertaining.
2005-11-16 17:07:44
76.   Bob Timmermann
75
There's that whole "promoting from within" thing.

Ng started with the Dodgers before DePodesta and was highly recommended by other GMs such as Brian Cashman and Bill Bavasi.

And likely Dan Evans too.

2005-11-16 17:08:13
77.   dzzrtRatt
I'm not worried about seeing Dusty Baker as manager here. In all seriousness, that won't happen til Lasorda, indeed, goes to heaven.

The guy I could see coming here that would fit Colletti's description is Lou Pineilla.

We're lucky Leyland is tied up in Detroit.

Hargrove maybe? Didn't I read here that Ichiro has told the M's it's him or me? Or did I dream that?

Showalter?

Scioscia would be an obvious choice, except I think he'd sooner become a vegetarian.

LaRussa?

2005-11-16 17:12:38
78.   Steve
Whoever it is is going to bunt like it's 1852.
2005-11-16 17:15:50
79.   popup
65, I agree. This whole idiotic trip is brought to you by Frank McCourt.

I post here often. I am not a saber follower, nor am I anti-saber. I do think I like intelligent leadership no matter what it calls itself. At the end of the year McCourt had a decision to make: bring back DePo or bring back Tracy. I could have supported either, though I think a good GM is more important than a manager. McCourt sided with DePo. Tracy is out. Wait a minute, McCourt fires DePo. Tracy is still out and now DePo is too. The Dodgers hire a GM who probably could have worked with Tracy. So now the Dodgers have a void at manager with who knows who to be hired.

Post #22 mentions McCourt's good impulses and bad impulses. Maybe so, but what stands out to me is that McCourt simply is impulsive. That is not a good thing to be when running a baseball franchise.

The only hope I have for this franchise is that McCourt will be forced to sell sooner rather than later.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-11-16 17:16:36
80.   Robert Fiore
Kim Ng and Boston: When you have a celebrity executive, why do you replace him with another team's assistant? One reason is that because you as an owner are tired of being in the shadow of the celebrity executive, you want to impose more of your personal vision on the team, and you want more personal credit for the team's success. I think this may have been what was behind Jerry Buss's bizarre treatment of Jerry West in the later stages of his Laker career. The problem is that what you're looking for in the assistant is a pushover, and I'm not so sure Kim Ng is a pushover. I think if you're looking for someone who will take over the nuts and bolts while letting you as an owner direct the team, you hire Dan Evans.

From Kim Ng's point of view, what you have to keep in mind is that running a baseball team for Boston is like playing lyre for the Bacchantes. In the Los Angeles job on the other hand, she would have been shielded somewhat from criticism by the L.A. Times' traditional terror at giving offense to any racial minority.

2005-11-16 17:17:33
81.   Steve
Except for Koreans
2005-11-16 17:22:17
82.   Bob Timmermann
Whoever it is is going to bunt like it's 1852.

Bunting didn't come in to the game of baseball until a player named Dickey Pearce made his debut in 1856. Just when he started bunting is subject to dispute. It was called a "baby hit" at first.

Until 1877, a ball was fair as long as it landed in fair territory first. It could roll foul and the ball would still be in play.

The bunt was a very effective weapon if you could put enough spin on the ball when you hit it.

2005-11-16 17:22:21
83.   Brendan
ESPN, Buster Olney reporting Mike Cameron Mets to be traded for Xavier Nady Padres. Hope this brightens everyone's day.
2005-11-16 17:23:08
84.   Steve
So bunting like it was 1852 would be a good thing!
2005-11-16 17:26:38
85.   dzzrtRatt
Until 1877, a ball was fair as long as it landed in fair territory first. It could roll foul and the ball would still be in play.

So, if the old-timers want to give a boost to their bunt-happy vision for baseball, they should just bring back this rule.

2005-11-16 17:27:54
86.   Jacob L
83 I was, literally, like 5 minutes ago flipping throuhg player pages at B-Ref, and thinking how Nady'd be a good player to acquire. I guess the Pads are still fixated on the whole "we need a speedy CF to patrol Petco" thing. Why don't they just bring the fences in?
2005-11-16 17:30:53
87.   Uncle Miltie
Go to the Dusty Baker blog. The article on Kerry Wood is hilarious.
2005-11-16 17:39:31
88.   trainwreck
Somone tell Flanders about Larry Dierker. He meets all those qualities and would be someone I have absolutely no problem with.
2005-11-16 17:43:46
89.   Curtis Lowe
88- Dierker? Deer Car? Die er Care? How is it pronounced? And is he Italian or does he do business with Italians?
2005-11-16 17:46:53
90.   trainwreck
Der Ker and he can lie and say he is married to an Italian women.

If Flanders is successful I will change his nickname to Ned King Colle.

2005-11-16 17:51:09
91.   zappala
Not sure anyone has mentioned this, but wouldn't Brett Butler fit in as manager with this whole Dodger-Giant theme? More likely than Dusty Baker anyway.
2005-11-16 18:00:11
92.   deburns
I kept a copy of http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/189800.html, which is a very useful rundown of our Rule 5 situation. Assuming that the team DFA's or otherwise gets rid of Edwards, Grabowski, Ross and Myrow, and adds Thompson and Ketchner to the 40-man, that leaves 11 slots to be filled. If we put Guzman, Loney, Hu, Megrew, Stults, Hull, Perez and Juarez on the roster, that still leaves three openings. Is my math or other information correct?
2005-11-16 18:24:44
93.   bigcpa
92 Derek Thompson was already cut loose- so 4 slots then?
2005-11-16 18:31:46
94.   Bob Timmermann
85
Returning the fair-foul rule to baseball would drive up scoring remarkably.

But if you're going to bring back that rule, I think it's only fair to have batters be retired if the fielders catch the ball on the first bounce too.

2005-11-16 18:44:14
95.   D4P
94
Returning the fair-foul rule will help counteract the new crack-down on steroid use.
2005-11-16 18:48:41
96.   dzzrtRatt
Wow, this whole GM mess was fatiguing and distracting! But it's only half-over--the manager situation is going to be jammed into the next 10 days or so. I wonder how many good manager candidates are going to run for the same tall weeds where the GM candidates hid out? Will Ned's promise of an experienced championship caliber manager go the way of McCourt's vow to bring in Pat Gillick or his equivalent? I hope not. It would be so embarassing to go through another round of rejections. And if we end up with Jim Fregosi, by default...ngh.

But the way things are going, I bet we read some solid rumors in various print media as early as tonight. No rest for the wicked.

2005-11-16 19:22:06
97.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Who bleeds Dodger blue and Giant orange?
Alex Trevino!
2005-11-16 19:30:59
98.   Sam DC
NYTimes.com has a good article about Ng up. Offers this by way of background: "Next time, the fit may be better. Even though the Dodgers remain one of the most recognizable brands in sports, their front office can make the Red Sox look stable. Less than two months ago, McCourt fired Manager Jim Tracy and voiced his support for General Manager Paul DePodesta. A few weeks later, he fired DePodesta.

Since McCourt took over as the Dodgers' owner two years ago, he has jeopardized the organization's genteel image, firing 10 vice presidents or directors of departments. The new vice chairman is McCourt's wife, Jamie. The marketing director is his son, Drew."

http://tinyurl.com/adhzv

2005-11-16 19:58:11
99.   Uncle Miltie
Kobe has attempted more field goals than he has points.
2005-11-16 20:01:00
100.   King of the Hobos
93 He's been resigned

Also, the Padres made their second big move of the day. They gave $650K to a World Series hero, and their old friend, Geoff Blum

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-16 20:01:41
101.   D4P
99
Nothing new there.
2005-11-16 20:05:47
102.   Bob Timmermann
There is only one player whose career consisted of playing for just the L.A. Dodgers and S.F. Giants:

Dave Anderson.

14 more guys if you include Brooklyn and New York.

Freddie Fitzsimmons is the only person to play in a World Series as a Giant and a Dodger.

He died 26 years ago however.

2005-11-16 20:07:25
103.   natepurcell
and somehow... the lakers are winning at halftime.
2005-11-16 20:15:43
104.   D4P
103
Yay, a 2-point lead at home over a team with a 2-5 record. Yuck. A whopping 5 out of 15 Western conference teams have winning records.
2005-11-16 20:29:51
105.   trainwreck
If Kobe's hand is messed up he needs to pass the ball more! He had a two on 1 with Smush and he did not even give the ball up. Come on now. On this recent losing streak Kobe has reverted back to last year's ways.
2005-11-16 20:34:08
106.   scareduck
Going back in time --

22 -- Robert, very good post, as Jon said. A comment:

If they are competent but flaky they could run the team poorly for years. This is particularly disheartening after we've spent so many years in the wilderness and it seemed as though we were almost out.

I have never thought the team was out of the wilderness -- or were even close to that -- until DePodesta came aboard. It was the first sign of real competence the McCourts exhibited. Firing him just brought me to the idea that they're hopeless incompetents.

My fear is that Lasorda approved of Colletti because of "chemistry" and glad-handing, and that Colletti is secretly behind all the bad contracts like A.J. Pierzynski, Neifi Perez, Sidney Ponson, etc.

2005-11-16 20:36:51
107.   MikeB
Based on the Giants track record while Mr. Colletti was with them...

Expect to see the following to happen:
A strong effort to sign Brian Giles? - FA OF, 35 yrs old.
Trade for Todd Helton? Send Choi & others to Rockies and take on Helton's contract?

Unlikely to happen now?
Signing Nomar Garciaparra - not known as a clubhouse "chemistry" guy (so says tbe Boston media)

Too late to happen this off-season?
Getting Dusty Baker as manager. I don't believe the Cubs want to emulate the Dodgers and start looking for a new manager now. Sometimes you just get lucky...

And what happens now to Terry Collins? Is he marginalized within the Dodger organization because Depodesta wanted him as manager? Does Colletti have the self-confidence to keep Collins, a good person, who has done a very good job with the Dodger minor leagues?

2005-11-16 20:38:28
108.   D4P
105
Yep. Kobe's a ballhog.
2005-11-16 20:38:47
109.   trainwreck
I think we are going to go after Reggie Sanders.
2005-11-16 20:46:14
110.   Uncle Miltie
108- The Los Angeles Kobes

I'm sure his teammates love playing with him

2005-11-16 20:48:14
111.   D4P
110
I believe you mean "for him." Buss should have traded him when he had the chance.

I can't see Phil sticking around for the entirety of his contract.

2005-11-16 20:51:06
112.   regressiontheorem
I watched video of the Colletti intro at mlb.com today. The best thing I noticed was that after McCourt introduced Colletti, he didn't say a word. He came up to the podium again after Colletti's opening remarks but nobody asked him a thing. He just stood there like he was in right field or something.

Maybe McCourt did make a mistake. He hired someone that will keep him out of the baseball headlines. Maybe Kim Ng is right, good things may be happening on the "baseball side." However on the other side I won't be surprised if we are charged separate for mustard packets when we order hot dogs next year.

2005-11-16 20:52:23
113.   Uncle Miltie
111- I forgot, they are "his guys". Kobe isn't going anywhere though. He makes Buss money, he has a no trade clause and apparently he also got a stake of the team. Last year, I called him Coach Kobe, because I knew he was running everything.
2005-11-16 20:54:15
114.   natepurcell
lol! kobe doesnt have a stake in the lakers.
2005-11-16 20:58:48
115.   Uncle Miltie
He does, but the Lakers never made it public. Why do you think he stayed with the Lakers? The Clippers offered to play some games in Anaheim, Buss offered a stake in the team. By the way, these announcers are morons.
2005-11-16 21:00:05
116.   MikeB
"(Brian) Giles is certainly not the ideal free agent around which to build an offense, in that his days of hitting 30 home runs while slugging north of .500 are in the past. The retention of his superb batting eye, however, has helped Giles maintain his status as an elite offensive player. Because he plays in the cavernous environs of Petco Park (batting park factor of 90 in 2005, lowest in the NL), Giles's 903 2005 OPS is even healthier than it seems.

Giles was practically the entire Friars' offense in 2005. No other player on the team compiled even half of his 65.1 hitting VORP..."

Baseball Prospectus, http://tinyurl.com/cybr6
November 16, 2005
Prospectus Notebook, Reds, Padres --Caleb Peiffer

2005-11-16 21:01:08
117.   DaveP
my prediction for next Dodger manager:

Kevin Kennedy

note: I don't endorse this move.

2005-11-16 21:01:42
118.   Uncle Miltie
Kobe just attempted with a 26 foot 3 point fade away with maybe 10 seconds left on the shot clock. Nice. He has 2 assists.
2005-11-16 21:03:33
119.   natepurcell
nice conspiracy theory there miltie.
2005-11-16 21:05:21
120.   regfairfield
But whenever something went wrong with the Dodgers last year, he would have done the exact opposite thing.

He would have been 100% successful if he were managing the Dodgers.

2005-11-16 21:05:28
121.   D4P
118
I can't even watch Kobe any more. His poor shot selection is both predictable and frustrating. If he's gonna hog the ball, at least drive to the hoop and get fouled. I don't understand why he insists on hoisting up long-range jumpers. Oh well. Just another crappy season for the Lakers.
2005-11-16 21:06:05
122.   Uncle Miltie
Not a conspiracy theory. A friend of a Lakers employee (yea, I know this doesn't sound believable) told me this. Buss did it out of desperation. Kobe was very close to signing with the Clippers.
2005-11-16 21:07:59
123.   natepurcell
lakers pulling away!
2005-11-16 21:08:21
124.   Uncle Miltie
Kobe passes the ball! First non-Kobe Laker to score in the last 20 minutes.
2005-11-16 21:08:52
125.   Uncle Miltie
Kobe should be proud of beating the Knicks.
2005-11-16 21:09:29
126.   Jon Weisman
106 - "My fear is that Lasorda approved of Colletti because of "chemistry" and glad-handing, and that Colletti is secretly behind all the bad contracts like A.J. Pierzynski, Neifi Perez, Sidney Ponson, etc. "

But A.J., and Ponson are bad chemistry signings. So isn't it all baloney? Are you saying that Tommy doesn't realize they're bad chemistry signings, or doesn't care?

2005-11-16 21:09:30
127.   Bert
What a disaster for Dodger fans. This guy is a political hack coming from one of the least imaginative organizations in baseball. Short of reincarnating Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds consider the Dodgers SOL.
2005-11-16 21:10:03
128.   natepurcell
so if they beat the knicks, they stil get crap because kobe scores over 40. if they dont beat the knicks, its because kobe is a ballhog...
2005-11-16 21:10:20
129.   trainwreck
I remember hearing that rumor when it was getting crunch time for Kobe to decide. I wouldn't have done that, but then again I would have had no problem trading Shaq to the Western conference if it meant I got better talent in return.
2005-11-16 21:12:02
130.   Xeifrank
For all you Kobe bashers, he does have 41 points on only 33 FG attempts. He is 11-12 at the free throw line for those of you complaining about him not taking the ball to the hole to get fouled more often. And he has only hoisted up one three point shot. He has also scored 20 of the Lakers last 24 points. Jim Tracy would probably be asking him to bunt if he were coaching.
vr, Xei
2005-11-16 21:12:26
131.   Telemachos
Despite taking on a bad contract or two, a middle line-up of Drew, Helton, Giles, and Kent would be awesome.
2005-11-16 21:15:00
132.   Eric L
128 According to 82games.com, the Lakers absolutely stink when Kobe isn't on the floor. I think the Lakers poor play the last couple of years isn't Kobe's fault.. Mitch should take the blame for that.

( of course, if Kobe and Shaq could have acted like grown-ups, some of this would be moot)

2005-11-16 21:15:46
133.   natepurcell
kwame brown has the worst hands i have ever seen.
2005-11-16 21:16:13
134.   Uncle Miltie
130- the 3 pointer was a fade away with a man guarding him and 10 seconds on the shot clock. I'm not bashing Kobe because he's not a great player. He is a great talent, an unbelievable athlete; he has a great work ethic, and is one of the best defenders in the league. The problem is, he doesn't know the concept of team basketball.
2005-11-16 21:16:18
135.   trainwreck
Some games Kobe has to take over, but he can not do it every game, because his teammates lose interest and start to just stand and watch.
2005-11-16 21:16:39
136.   MikeB
131. There's a lot of walks in that foursome. Somebody might win an RBI title playing for the Dodgers. When was the last time a Dodger won the Ribbie title? Tommy Davis in '62 or '63?
2005-11-16 21:17:05
137.   Xeifrank
134. That's your opinion. :)
vr, Xei
2005-11-16 21:17:08
138.   Jon Weisman
Simers' column is up. It is most notable for the absence for a nickname for Colletti. It is hardly an endorsement of Colletti, though. I can't say there's a lot in the column I have a problem with.
2005-11-16 21:17:09
139.   regfairfield
131 I'd feel a little dirty about having a 48 million dollar heart of the lineup.
2005-11-16 21:19:39
140.   natepurcell
i think i would rather trade for glaus than helton. shorter contract, plays a bigger position of need.

a drew, kent, gile, glaus, choi...3-4-5-6-7 lineup would be devastating.

2005-11-16 21:20:52
141.   MikeB
For those interested in some background on Colletti's trading techniques...

http://tinyurl.com/cpsg8

"The art of the deal; Getting Edgardo Alfonzo a new home nearly turns into a Giant mess"
By JOHN HARPER
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

2005-11-16 21:21:13
142.   regfairfield
140 Why don't we go get Abreu while we're at it? He'd work well hitting second.
2005-11-16 21:22:38
143.   MikeB
140. Are there any rumors about Glaus being available? Did he finish 2005 healthy?
2005-11-16 21:24:39
144.   natepurcell
Are there any rumors about Glaus being available? Did he finish 2005 healthy?

rosenthal (or some collumnist) has glaus going to the dodgers in his offseason trades predictions.

and he played 150+ games last year.

2005-11-16 21:25:26
145.   Uncle Miltie
142- not a bad idea. I like this lineup:
C: Navarro 50 walks
1B: Helton 100+ walks
2B: Kent 40-50 walks
SS: Aybar 50 walks
3B: Mueller 65 walks
LF: Cruz 100+ walks (I'm being optimistic)
CF: Drew 100+ walks
RF; Abreu 100+ walks

"The 100 Walk Outfield"

2005-11-16 21:25:54
146.   SiGeg
Rob Neyer on Colletti and his PR background:

"I've never talked to Colletti, which I regret because I always wondered if maybe he was the brains behind the Giants' success. Colletti got his start working in public relations for the Cubs, which might seem like an unlikely place for a future GM, but in the old days a great many future general managers started there. And considering the sharks who write for the L.A. newspapers, perhaps an old PR guy is exactly what the Dodgers need."

I was surprised to hear this fact from "the old days" -- but how old are these old days? Does anyone know if he's talking mid-20th century? Early 20th century? Late Pleistocene? Just curious.

I also noted that earlier in the column, while saying hopeful things about the hiring of Joe Madden as manager in TB, Neyer offered something that I hope Colletti would take to heart and apply in LA:

"Since the inception of this franchise [Tampa Bay], managerial hires and player acquisitions have always seemed to be predicated not on what the newcomer might do, but rather on what he has done. Were Greg Vaughn and Fred McGriff and Wade Boggs and Charles Johnson and Lou Piniella really going to turn things around? Clearly, they were not."

2005-11-16 21:29:13
147.   Uncle Miltie
Why is Kobe still in the game? To pad his stats...I blame Phil for this.
2005-11-16 21:34:00
148.   King of the Hobos
From Henson's new article:

'He agreed to a four-year contract and will retain assistant GM Kim Ng, who was the other finalist. He met with Dodger scouting director Logan White for several hours and plans to do the same with player development vice president Roy Smith.'

That can only be good, right?

2005-11-16 21:34:40
149.   Xeifrank
147. wow, the Kobe haters are out in full force tonight. Lakers win by 5 and Kobe gets a dozen at the charity stripe. Definitely the difference in the game. Kobe is a proven winner. The haters can rest up for the Laker/Clipper game.
vr, Xei
2005-11-16 21:35:38
150.   regfairfield
Where does everyone rank Abreu in the grand scheme of things? He's easily the most under rated player in baseball, but if you had to take a player for one season, where would you take him.

I can only think of four players I would rather have than Abreu:

A-Rod
Pujols
Vlad
Jason Bay (Yeah, I think pretty highly of him too)

Abreu's on base, power, and speed combination are unmatched. His only downfall is his average defense and not quite elite power. I doubt anyone else puts him up this highly, however.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-16 21:40:18
151.   natepurcell
abreu is getting up there, hes 31, soon to be 32. so thats the only concern i have of him. i love pretty much everything else about him.
2005-11-16 21:40:42
152.   natepurcell
OT- whos a chargers fan here? and if you are, who do you trade in the offseason, brees or rivers?
2005-11-16 21:41:16
153.   Javier Gutierrez
Isn't Abreu a gap hitter though, he will lose some doubles powere if he were to play at Dodger Stadium
2005-11-16 21:42:49
154.   trainwreck
I think Jason Bay is the most underrated but that is based off of this year. The funny thing is a lot of Philly fans do not like him because they say he is so lazy and non chalant and could be so much better. I still would love to acquire him.
2005-11-16 21:43:23
155.   trainwreck
I just noticed you put Jason Bay on your list I should have looked closer my bad.
2005-11-16 21:43:23
156.   MikeB
FYI -
The last L.A. Dodger to win the RBI title was
Tommy Davis, 153 RBI in 1962. Jim Gilliam led the team with 93 walks. Tommy D. hit 27 HR, and Frank Howard socked 31 HR to lead the team.

1962 Los Angeles Dodgers, Managed by Walter Alston. W/L record: 102-63, Finished 2nd in National League (lost pennant in a one game playoff to the Giants). Bob T. can fill in the gory details. (Who remembers Stan Williams? Wasn't Drysdale warming up in the pen?)
The Dodgers scored 842 runs, Allowed 697 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 97-68

Oh, and they had great chemistry. ;>)

2005-11-16 21:44:33
157.   Xeifrank
150. Just off the top of my head, I'd rather have. D.Lee, T.Hafner. C.Delgado, A.Dunn, M.Teixeira, A.Jones and M.Cabrera and probably a few others that I am forgetting. But I agree with you on J.Bay.
vr, Xei
2005-11-16 21:44:58
158.   trainwreck
I am a Raider fan, but I am willing to bet Brees is the one that gets traded. They picked Rivers to be their guy and Brees probably has the highest trade value as he has actually proven something on the field.
2005-11-16 21:46:59
159.   natepurcell
thats what i think as well.
2005-11-16 21:49:24
160.   regfairfield
157 This was for just one year, so if I had to start figuring age into things, Cabrera and Teixeria jump ahead of him.

Lee's season was a monster, but I'm scared it was a fluke. Jones had the worst season ever for a guy who hit 50 home runs, and his defense has slipped of late. Hafner, Delgado, and Dunn, while offensive forces, don't have Abreu's speed, and are all pretty bad defensively.

2005-11-16 21:50:26
161.   das411
150 , 157 - no Matsui or Delmon? Or that guy #25 that Colletti used to work with?

154 - No, we have no problems with Bay, it is Abreu that is lazy and unmotivated :)

152 - http://tinyurl.com/745zn

2005-11-16 21:55:03
162.   trainwreck
161-
That is what I meant, which is why I said Philly fans forget to say Abreu's name, my mistake.
2005-11-16 21:56:39
163.   A Slo
Well this is an interesting thing for Simers to actually admit to:

"Several members of the media here go back a long way with Colletti, so he will get the benefit of the doubt -- certainly longer than DePodesta."

2005-11-16 21:58:08
164.   Uncle Miltie
Abreu plays defense like Shawn Green. Both have won a gold glove.
2005-11-16 22:01:16
165.   Bob Timmermann
Drysdale was not warming up in Game 165. Alston didn't want to use him.

Alston was almost fired for that.

2005-11-16 22:06:53
166.   regfairfield
161 Nothing particulary special about Matsui. .900 OPS corner outfielder who doesn't bring anything spectacular to the table.

As for Delmon, this is in a "win now" situation.

2005-11-16 22:17:04
167.   Steve
Hey, winning and building at the same time! Now if he just hires a manager that puts players in a position to succeed, we'll have the cliche division clinched.
2005-11-16 22:24:20
168.   natepurcell
reading some of the articles and quotes from colletti, i was quite interested in the "corner infield" remark about where he thinks we need improvements.

this means, we might still have a hope for choi! Anyways, i now think a trade for glaus is now very probable. it would probably involve us giving them odalis. which in turn, makes a matt morris FA signing plausible as well, given colletti's good relationship with morris' agent.

2005-11-16 22:24:57
169.   overkill94
40, 43, 46 You guys are leaving out the best hope-related quote:

"I don't want hope. Hope is killing me. My dream is to become hopeless. When you're hopeless you don't care. And when you don't care, that indifference makes you attractive."

"So, hopelessness is the key?"

"It's my only hope."

2005-11-16 22:27:43
170.   popup
I try to forget the end of the 62 season. That was the best Dodger team I have ever seen. Trying to remember without looking at retrosheet who other than Williams pitched in that game. I remember Sandy was awful in game 1 and the Ddogers won a wild game 2 with lots of runs.

Maybe Bob can enlighten me on this. When I was a kid I don't remember rehab starts for injured players. Sandy could definately have used minor league rehab coming back from his injury. Anyone know when major league players began to be allowed to appear in minor league games when coming back from the disabled list?

Stan from Tacoma

2005-11-16 22:32:07
171.   natepurcell
im going to revise my 2006 dodger offseason plans.
2005-11-16 22:33:41
172.   molokai
Players I'd take before Abreu
Pujols
Arod
Cabrera
Teixeira
Tejada
Wright
Utley
V Martinez
Peralta

I'll take slugging infielders over a corner outfielder but other then Cabrera he'd be my 1st outfielder.

2005-11-16 22:35:35
173.   Bob Timmermann
Without checking Retrosheet, I believe the Dodgers used Roebuck, Williams, and Perranoski in relief of Podres in that game.

Let's check my memory.

(scurries off to another tab)

Yea, I'm right.
The Giants used Marichal, Larsen and Pierce.

As for rehab starts, I think that started in the early 1980s. I think it was one of the results of the 1981 strike. But I'm just speculating there.

2005-11-16 22:37:23
174.   Rob M
Abreu is nice, but there are several guys I'd take for one year ahead of him. Aside from the guys you mentioned, if we're talking 2006, I'd say:
Bonds
Ortiz
Cabrera (yes, now)
Tejada

And these guys are probably a push:
Rolen (healthy)
Texeira
David Wright (even now)

There may be more. I just don't find Abreu to be trancendantly good. I'd take him, of course.

2005-11-16 22:39:11
175.   the OZ
I love this paragraoh from Simers:

"Colletti began his career as a sportswriter covering hockey, which explains why our paths probably never crossed. He worked for a newspaper in Philadelphia, which went out of business, and the way things are going around here, we might have something in common after all."

2005-11-16 22:40:08
176.   das411
166 - And when was the last time LA saw 162 games of .900 OPS in LF/RF?

The more I read about Delmon the more it looks like he is the second coming of Darryl Strawberry (minus the personal problems, we all hope). I would make the argument that Delmon's 2006 could be very similar to Darryl's 1983, and with the leaps that Pujols and Cabrera made straight to MLB a line of .280/25/90/.350/.800 or so may be on the low side for him.

But I also mention Darryl because didn't he also play for all 4 of SF, LA, NYY and NYM?

2005-11-16 22:44:37
177.   Vishal
[176] yes, yes he did. he was only on the giants for 29 games though.
2005-11-16 22:45:44
178.   popup
Thanks Bob. Looking back at it, it seems remarkable that rehab assignments are such a recent development.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-11-16 22:48:57
179.   dzzrtRatt
126 Re: chemistry. Yeah, it's baloney. Lasorda was manager through at least one naked shower fight between Sutton and Garvey, the one we heard about, and there were probably other conflicts. Garv was pretty much despised by the rest of the team, and their wives all hated his wife. Lopes and Yeager weren't exactly gladhanders, and Reggie Smith could be fierce. Dusty Baker was a chemistry guy until the Dodgers accused him of a felony. Lasorda himself was a penthouse/doghouse kind of manager, to the detriment of the team, and he buried more young players than Jim Tracy's ever seen.

The fans think "chemistry" because all those players stayed together for all those years and were successful, but that didn't happen because they were wearing each others' friendship anklets.

2005-11-16 22:49:15
180.   natepurcell
i have a question, who is backup SS if robles gets hurt in the first half of the year? Perez?
2005-11-16 23:01:19
181.   regfairfield
174 I could see the argument for Cabrera (heck he was my preseason choice for MVP), I just think Abreu is a more complete player.

Tejada is think is actually a little overrated. He's never OPSed over .900, and doesn't really play defense, shown a remarkable talent for getting on base, or shown speed. The fact that he's a shortstop makes up for a lot of this, but I just don't think he belongs in the upper tier.

Ortiz actually probably does make my list. I left him since I figured his he'd be giving back 20 runs for every 100 that he contributes. His limited time at first however shows him to be decent with a glove.

I think I may be overvaluing Abreu's speed. To approximate it's effect, let's give him an extra base for every steal, and take away a hit and a base for every caught stealing, it's not perfect, but it's a good approximation.

These are Abreu's numbers from the last three years (OBP/SLG/OPS) (SB/CS)

.409/.468/.877 22/9
.428/.544/.972 40/5
.405/.474/.879 31/9

Putting the steals into the numbers gives:
.395/.490/.885
.421/.605/1.026
.392/.513/.905

Considering a single plus a stolen base is slightly less valuable than a double, and a loss in on base is worse than a loss in slug, with the exception of 2004, I was overstating Abreu's ability.

While his .410 ish on base puts him ahead of guys like Matsui, this probably drops him below Cabrera, Ortiz, and Hafner and makes him level with Teixiera and Wright.

2005-11-16 23:01:41
182.   molokai
Probably someone not on the roster but you'll drive yourself crazy asking these questions in November. Robles didn't even exist to us last November.
2005-11-16 23:02:25
183.   regfairfield
176 They'd see it if they got Abreu.
2005-11-16 23:16:51
184.   molokai
181
You make some nice arguements but you lose me when you bring in a quote "doesn't really play defense". I've heard that applied to Abreu even with his gold glove but never with Miggy. Do you have some numbers to back that up or is it just an eyeball view?
2005-11-16 23:22:19
185.   regfairfield
184 With the exception of 2004, his rate2 hovers from 95-100. His adjusted fielding runs against average is slightly more favorable, but not amazing. Here's his career defensive stats. (Rate2/FRAA2)

97 81/-5
98 96/-4
99 104/6
00 97/-5
01 94/-10
02 94/-9
03 89/-17
04 109/15
05 97/-4
Career: 97/-34

2005-11-16 23:29:40
186.   das411
183 - Wow, actually comparing Abreu and Matsui's 2003-05 numbers seems to show that they are as close to the same player as you can get. The major differences between the two seem to be Abreu's tons and tons of cheap stolen bases, versus Matsui's actual playoff experience and 2-3 games' worth of extra durability.

Which I guess begs the question, were Abreu a high-priced foreign import that reached the WS in his first year the way Matsui was, would he also be considered a "True Yankee"? Might be time to troll Bronx Banter...

Jon, is there any way I can save my "What we would need for Abreu" rant from a couple of months ago and just plug it in every time his name comes up? Maybe after the edit feature arrives, we could get some hotkeys for the phrases we see most often, like: "JD Drew's injury history had NOTHING TO DO with his broken wrist", "Joel Guzman for Adam Dunn before anyone realizes JtD cannot play shortstop," and "Milton Bradley for Brad Wilkerson so Frank has to manage two psycho outfielders!"

2005-11-16 23:44:37
187.   molokai
186
I'm on board with all 3. By the end of the night Colletti will know what the rest of baseball already knows and that is JtD is not a SS.

185
Yeah BP shows his 2004 as being an outlier also. Never considered him a great defensive SS but your comment sounds like he's indifferent to playing SS. Semantics I guess.

2005-11-17 04:27:37
188.   SMY
Maybe McCourt really did ask Plaschke who to hire as GM. In his column today, Plaschke claims he knew it all along. What a blowhard.

"Back in 2001 in these pages, I wrote a column about the many things I hated about the Giants.

One of my entries read, "I hate that the Giants have such front-office depth, one of baseball's smartest guys — Ned Colletti — is only their assistant general manager."

I have long thought he's the right man for this job. On Wednesday, he certainly sounded as if he's the right man for this job."

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