It'd be really nice in the PR war with the other SoCal team if Nomah, the hometown kid, resurrects his career here. The injuries are of course worrisome, but this could potentially be a great signing.

Hope springs eternal...

WWSH

466 (from previous post) - Vishal; are you sure you meant Kent batting 3rd and Drew 4th? I would switch those two.

I know you are in a "wait and see" mode, but it is becoming more apparent that the Dodgers, in addition to signing Garciaparra, are the frontrunners for Reggie Sanders (LF) and Kenny Lofton (RF). As a result, it appears as if Nomar is indeed being thought of as the team's primary 1B.

If all three signings come to pass, one would also have to believe that Jose Cruz Jr. would not have been asked back under the current regime. He's an excellent 4th OF but having such a luxury when you also have Werth and Repko lurking in the background seems a bit excessive, especially when the team still needs help in its starting rotation.

Geez, were you guys up all night talking about this?

Someone on the previous thread said this: "I think that signing Nomar was done as much for PR as for baseball reasons."

I completely agree. It doesn't make it a bad signing. But PR is the primary distinction between Nomar and Hee Seop Choi, given that their output is quite close. Nomar's got the track record that Choi hasn't had the chance to assemble. He's got the glitz that goes along with having played for one of the MLB's few "national" teams.

I'd like to think Nomar's going to play LF, but in the final analysis, I don't think his health status allows it. Plus he'll be crowded out by our two new outfielders.

So--what to do? For DePodesta-haters, simply non-tendering Choi would be the most satisfying outcome, the final nail in the coffin of his reputation. "He traded LoDuca for Choi. 18 months later, LoDuca was the starting catcher for the New York Mets. Choi was out begging for a job."

But if we non-tender him, he could wind up on the Giants. They don't seem settled at first base, and Choi's power might be seen as potential protection for Bonds. That's dangerous for Mr. Ned, PR-wise. So my guess is we'll sign him and then listen to offers for him--from teams outside our division.

I agree with your call for patience Jon. But, I still think that it's pretty obvious that the writing's on the wall, in terms of Choi. As I said in the last thread, it doesn't make sense to play Nomar in the outfield with his injury history. In addition, the rumors that Colletti is still after Lofton and/or Sanders suggests that Nomar will play first base. Additionally, we all know that Choi is not looked upon highly many "traditional" baseball people. I think there is a real reason to be upset with this signing. Finally, I think this move decreases Choi's value on the trade market. Now teams will know that we are desparate to move him. I can't imagine anyone giving up quality pitching for him now.

As always, I hope I'm wrong.

3 - If all three signings come to pass, one would also have to believe that Jose Cruz Jr. would not have been asked back under the current regime.

Ah, this will be interesting... Cruz, Jr. was resigned before Ned was hired. If Ned signs Sanders and/or Lofton, then there may be some philosophical differences in the Head-Shed after all...

Re: 3

If Lofton wants playing time, which I think Jackson's report indicated, I'd think that we'd only snag Sanders. If we only sign Sanders and Cruz is made the right-handed version of Ledee on the bench, then Choi could still be the starting 1B.

WWSH

[2] most people probably would i guess. i don't feel too strongly about it one way or the other. i can see the logic of drew third and kent 4th. in the first lineup i posted, i had choi 2nd though, so i stuck kent 3rd to go lefty-righty-lefty. in the second lineup mueller's a switch hitter, so drew third and kent fourth makes sense too, probably moreso because of drew's OBP.

3 Yes; unless Drew is on the trading block for a starting pitcher. I don't really think that's what Colletti has in mind, but he might listen if another team had a notion.

While I understand Jon's wait-and-see approach with respect to what position Nomah will play and what that means for Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi!, I also think that holding out hope for HSC is virtually doomed to result in disappointment. Colletti has never expressed one iota of support for the Big Heesy, and has been non-committal at best toward the prospect of Choi being the starter.

BTW: Whatever happened to Flanders' "Upgrading 1B isn't really a priority, and I'm focusing on the outfield and the pitching staff"?

Rich,
It's either that or we're going to have the highest paid bench in baseball...

On one hand, I'm glad they signed Nomah. Given his local roots to me, I couldn't think of having a better guy playing for the home town team, but on the other hand, we are starting to look like the 2001 or 2002 Boston Red Sox, which of course we can thank Frank for that. But I have to and it to him. The spending of money is impressive, and what's the old saying? "Spend it if you have it?"

Absolutely!

But the best news is that other then giving away Antonio Perez and Milton Bradley for close to nothing, we still have some young guys who will be getting some valuable experience for a better Ddoger team for the future. At least we have them for the time being, correct?

Why are so many assuming that Lofton will sign with us? It was my impression from Jackson's article that that was really iffy, due to playing time issues. And who's to say that Sanders won't get a better offer from another team to steal him away from us, even assuming we're the front-runner?

WWSH

10 - BTW: Whatever happened to Flanders' "Upgrading 1B isn't really a priority, and I'm focusing on the outfield and the pitching staff"?

Thus the theme of this post... don't believe unsubstantiated MSM sound-bites. I personally believe that if Nomahhhhs groing is main the health concern, then 1st base is the worst position he could play. Have you ever tried split stretching with a sore groin???

13 - groing: the sound one's groin makes when pulled or torn :)

I also would like to point out that Ledee and Cruz were not really fantastic players for the Giants org. when Ned was there. I still remember Cruz dropping a routine foul ball with bad consequences in the post-season for 03, and Ledee had a dreadful time there in 04.

WWSH

Re my comment above (#3), you can add Ricky Ledee to the mix of backup OF.

Therefore, IF the Dodgers sign Nomar, Reggie, and Kenny, then you have FOUR backup OF (Ledee, Cruz, Werth, and Repko). Logic would suggest that one or more of these players would be traded, perhaps packaged along with Choi, for a SP.

Given that the goal appears to be to resurrect the 2002 Giants and the 2003 Red Sox, who might this starting pitcher be?

Maybe Flanders was more interested in signing Mia than Nomar....

Re: 10

I think Ned wants to wait and see how his other options in the OF work out before he settles on any single course of action. I doubt he's settled in his own mind what exactly he'll do with Choi. That doesn't mean Choi's fate is already doomed as a Dodger.

WWSH

The best thing Frank/Ned/et. al. have done so far has been to not only keep the farm intact, they've added to it and substantially upgraded our outfield prospects... kudos!

13
Not to mention that being a 6' righty doesn't make one an ideal candidate for 1B either. Although, perhaps it's only (ghasp!) "conventional wisdom" that a first baseman should be tall and left-handed...

Re: 16

It's been discussed before, but Werth will certainly not be ready for the start of ST. When he'll be healthy his iffy--I could see him starting AAA on injury rehab. I think Repko is now out of the mix. I do agree that Ledee and Cruz are DePo regime leftovers that Ned may not want.

WWSH

As a natural SS, I also assume Nomah's still got a decent arm, which would be more useful at LF than at 1B.

WWSH

>>Lofton met with Arizona Diamondbacks officials on Friday at Chase Field, but he hasn't visited Dodger Stadium unless such a meeting took place Saturday. Lofton is believed to have narrowed his choices to the Dodgers and Diamondbacks and is willing to sign a one-year deal, but his decision is expected to hinge largely on playing time.

Arizona wants Lofton as its everyday center fielder. The Dodgers would use him as their primary center fielder, but the left-handed hitter might have to share time there with switch-hitting Jose Cruz Jr. and right-handed-hitting Jason Repko and Jayson Werth.

Lofton lists Tucson, Ariz., where he played guard for the University of Arizona's Final Four team in 1988, as his primary residence. But he also has a home somewhere in the Southland, a fact that could weigh in the Dodgers' favor.<<

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_3320336

Am I the only one who thinks that this account makes the Snakes the front-runner, not us?

WWSH

If the Dodgers sign all three (Garciaparra, Sanders, and Lofton)...

1. Furcal, SS
2. Lofton, CF
3. Kent, 2B
4. Drew, RF
5. Garciaparra, 1B
6. Sanders, LF
7. Mueller, 3B
8. Navarro, C

Or, if they sign Garciaparra and Sanders only...

1. Furcal, SS
2. Mueller, 3B
3. Kent, 2B
4. Drew, CF
5. Garciaparra, 1B
6. Sanders, LF
7. Cruz, RF
8. Navarro, C

(Kent and Drew could be reversed in both batting orders.)

I think part of the goal is not only to find short-term solutions to build a bridge to the youngsters in 2007 and beyond, but also to rid the team of as many players as possible who were "associated" with DePo (i.e., Choi, Perez, Phillips, Bradley).

Kent, Drew and Lowe could have good seasons, but nobody will give DePo any credit. Instead, the focus of the media will be on the players who were traded and the newcomers who were signed.

Book it!

18 I think Ned wants to wait and see how his other options in the OF work out before he settles on any single course of action.

I think this is the key point right now. The Nomar signing makes sense for Colletti no matter which position he ends up playing. Even if Colletti really wants him for 1b, it's a huge bonus for him that Nomar could be in the OF if that ends up being best for team (which, right now, it looks like it is).

24. Yes, because we all know that the only thing holding the Dodgers back from making a post-season run last year was Depo's computer and Choi clogging up first base. With those two gone, we're basically guaranteed a trip to the series.

24 I think part of the goal is not only to find short-term solutions to build a bridge to the youngsters in 2007 and beyond, but also to rid the team of as many players as possible who were "associated" with DePo (i.e., Choi, Perez, Phillips, Bradley).

Is Izturis on that list as well? I don't think he fits your profile, but wouldn't those lineups likely put him out of a job?

27. After these signings, if Izturis starts on a regular basis (without other injuries necessitating it) I will completely lose hope.

27 Izturis was pre-DePo.

28 Izturis could be very valuable trade bait. He had a Gold Glove two years ago and was an All-star last year. If Rentaria is worth Andy Marte than maybe Izturis is worth a starter from somebody. Obviously he would have to come back healthy, but I bet someone would pay out the ear for a 26 year old All-star Gold Glove SS.

30. I sure hope so.

Izturis was pre-DePo (which is why I said he doesn't fit the profile -- though he was signed to a contract by DePo). But my point was that he, along with the others listed, would seemingly be pushed out of the Dodgers' plans by the moves. I'm not protesting this. I think it's fine. I just find it interesting as it would be an aspect of Colletti's refashioning of the team that has a very different feel from trading Bradley or abandoing Choi.

This makes the Meuller signing a bit superfluous. If Colletti really wanted Nomar, why not stick him at third, play Choi/Saenz at first, and spend some money on pitching and the outfield? With Nomar at first, we still need to add an outfielder and a SP. Even with a trade to shore things up, we are still looking at a possible heafty payroll addition that may not be necessary or even possible.

That's why I'm still holding out for Nomar in left.

I'm not sure that Lofton should be an option at this point, outside of CF insurance for Drew. Would singing Lofton create a redundancy at CF?

Are LF and 1B the only possible spots for Nomah? Have we ruled out Nomah at 2B and Kent at 1B?

15--That thought had occurred to me. I hope that Ned isn't basing his analysis of Ledee and Cruz based on what he saw them do for the Giants rather than how they have actually performed.

18--Exactly. If we get Lofton and Sanders for good deals, our lineup is
Lofton
Furcal
Drew
Kent
Nomar
Sanders
Mueller
Navarro

THAT would be the best lineup in the NL, IMO. And Cruz, Ledee, Saenz, Choi? making for a great bench.

But if he doesn't get another OF, a lineup of
Furcal
Mueller
Drew
Kent
Nomar (more on that later Jon)
Choi/Saenz
Cruz
Navarro

MIGHT be the best lineup in the West.

Our uncertainty about Choi is clouding the fact that this was a very good signing by Ned. No downside to speak of and huge upside. Others have posted Nomar's 2nd half stats--I think he had about an 880 OPS.

Jon, nice theme for the day: don't jump to conclusions based on rumors (and Ned hasn't done anything that stupid yet so let's give him the benefit of the doubt).

Jon, re Nomar 5th v. Choi. Why the need to split up the right handers? I think Nomar handles RH better than he does LH anyway. I think that you're correct in that the gap between what Choi and Nomar would do isn't substantial (and Choi may do better). However, I think the perception of the opposing pitcher might make him give Kent something better to hit (no way to quantify this). Also, although I like Choi and hope he gets a chance, he seemed (and I think the numbers back this up) very inconsistent.

35--I sure hope that Nomar is ruled out at 2b. His problem is range and moving from ss to 2b isn't going to help that. His arm is fine. Plus turning the double play would just about guarantee an injury.

34--

I don't think so. Lofton in CF, Drew in RF>>Drew in CR, Cruz in RF. Plus all three of those guys will be injured at some point, which is why I like Jon's 5-headed, 100 game each OF of Drew, Nomar, Cruz and two others from Ledee, Werth, Lofton, Sanders.

27--Gosh, I disagree and sure hope that you're wrong. I think Ned was under orders to get rid of MB, Goggles stinks and Perez was needed to get back Ethier. Ned has embraced Kent, made no effort to get rid of Lowe, re-signed Saenz (Depo liked him, going back to the A's). I think Ned is trying to improve the team and isn't targeting Depo acquisitions for departure.

If you love Choi set him free. (Sang by Sting)

Let's face it, he is never going to get a shot with this team. Let him go somewhere and get a fresh start and a fair chance. It would be the best thing for him and perhaps the best way to rehabilitate Depo's reputation. Not to mention lots of people around here might have the last laugh.

38. But Drew wanted CF last year to save wear and tear on his knee...and now with Bradley gone, he's got it.

23I agree with you. Lofton is all about playing time and we can't give him what Arizona can. That said he might be looking at the Arizona pitching staff and realize he'd only last a couple of months before he was worn out chasing all the big flies. Maybe the rest he gets when Webb is pitching will help keep him fresh.

I hope the clever GM in Texas makes a play for Choi. Anyone who can get Wilkerson/Sledge/Prospect for Soriano gets my attention as someone to watch in the future.

43
Wait...wouldn't we want to trade with the GM who gave up Wilkerson/Sledge/Prospect for Soriano?

40 I agree. I don't want Choi on our bench. Besides the fact that he's shown no apptitude for being a pinch hitter, it would just be a waste. He needs a real chance to show what he can do, and he's getting too old to wait for another year. I'm a Choi fan, but I'd rather he play regularly for another team than sit on the Dodgers.

Probably not in the realm of possibility, but as mentioned in post 35, 2B might be better for Garciaparra. Furthermore, would it not be fair to say that Kent is overvalued (and there have already been plenty of posts pointing out that Choi is undervalued). Maybe it's Kent that's going for pitching. (And of course, that rules out Zito.)

No matter what happens with Nomar, I think Choi will still be with the team regardless. Consider the Bradley trade. You know Beane would have prefered Choi over Perez as the throw-in, and if Colletti really was considering non-tendering Choi, it would follow that Choi would have been included in that deal. Since he wasn't, and Saenz was offered a contract, it seems almost safe to guess that Colletti has some plans for Choi.

Granted Colletti could trade Choi, but he won't be released. At least I don't think so....

A few things:

1. As I posted yesterday, what makes people think Nomar can play first base? Has he ever played the position in his life? Living in NY, I got to watch Mike Piazza try and play first in 2004, so it is not like you can just stick anyone there. As far as I can tell, Nomar has only played short and third in the big leagues--why is it assumed that he can just pick-up a first basemen's mit and be even adequate at the position? Or even LF for that matter?

2. Players like Lofton, Sanders, Nomar are in all likelihood, 100 game players. If we signed all of them, we would probably have platoon situations in LF and RF, not to mention 1B if Choi returns. The only definitie day in day out starters would be Navarro, Kent, Furcal, Mueller and Drew.

I like the way that Colleti is putting things together--he is signing enough guys to short-term deals, thereby not only ensuring that most of the prospects will get their chance when 2007 rolls around, but also ensuring that we will have at least a decent team this year. I think Colleti has done a good job--in less than two months, he has taken a despondent fan base, and not only made them excited about 2006, but 2007 as well.

On the other hand, it is possible that Garciaparra + Choi's trade value > Choi. It's possible. Is there one team out there that believes in Choi and would trade a decent starting pitcher for him?

If that happens, I'm starting a new fan club.

And by the way, as President and CEO of the HSC fan club in my house, I think 40 has it exactly right.

Another thing--

This is not meant as a knock on DePo, but it looks like Colleti is much better at playing the free agent market than DePo was. Furcal was a total surprise, and even though Nomar has LA roots, we still beat out the Yankees, among other teams, for his services, and only had to sign him to a one-year contract. Compare that to DePo's handling of the Beltre and Drew situations last year.

40,45
Yes, I think most of us would rather see Choi start for another team than rot on the bench again for the Dodgers.

Good point RELX. Depo's trades on the whole were very good, but Boras played him like a drum in the free agent dealings.

48
Bill James did something called the "defensive spectrum" which showed where 1st base is on the left side of the spectrum and the thought goes that if you can play SS you can play any position in the majors. Don't tell that to Dunston who was a terrible 2nd baseman.
Here is a great link to a recent interview that Rich Lederer did with Bill James and the subject comes up.
http://tinyurl.com/eyr6d

[50] i think there needs to be an official hee seop choi marching & chowder society. i would sign up for that.

Signing Muller was the mistake. If he intended to sign Nomar, then third was the best place to put him. The Mueller money could have been better spent on a real play every day left or center fielder; we'd have a very adequate coverage at first for $1.5 million. Maybe then we could afford a pitcher.

The defensive spectrum is: DH - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C

51. I totally disagree. I don't see how the Furcal deal is significantly better than the Drew deal. And, Depo signed Jeff Kent. That's far better than anything Colleti has done, so far.

51
True. But consider this: Depo brought in Kent, Drew, Lowe, Valentin, Ledee, Navarro, and OP last year. Given that we are not privy to any of the wheelings and dealings going on in the backrooms, was Depo really that bad at playing the free agent market, or was that just a media perception? I don't know. Granted Colletti seems adept at making the short term deal, but Kent, Valentin and Ledee can fall into that category as well.

57. C is not part of the spectrum

Rosenthal has an article on the infield logjam when Izzy returns. It's not particularly informative, but it has a poll of what position makes the most sense for Nomar? 45% say 1B, 30% 2B, and only 25% think LF. 2207 have voted

57 - That is correct. However, catcher is not a part of the Defensive Spectrum. The theory is that a player should be able to travel leftward on the spectrum, but that it is difficult -- not impossible -- to travel rightward.

Catchers don't fit this description. Think about it, Navarro couldn't play SS or 2B. I'm sure he could play 1B and maybe even LF or RF but probably not the others. James recognized that catching was a demanding position, but he also realized that it was rather unique and, therefore, not a part of the Defensive Spectrum.

55. I think there already is a hee seop choi marching & chowder society. The problem is there is also an anti-hee seop choi marching & chowder society and when the two meet it will look like the opening scene in the Gangs of New York.

61

More proof that democracy just doesn't work. ;)

58. The Furcal signing is infinitely better than the Drew signing. If Drew has a great year this year, he opts out and we lose him. If he has a terrible year and goes on the DL and plays 90 games, than we are stuck paying him $11 million a year for the next three years. Plus, we were really bidding against no one when we signed him.

As far as Furcal, I think it is an excellent signing. Though we paid more than market value, we only had to sign him for three years. He's not injury-prone, and is a very good player, both offensively and defensively. The 3-year deal means that he should be playing hard for his next deal the entire time he is in a Dodgers uniform, which is another plus.

I will grant that the Kent signing was a very good move by DePo. But again, was there alot of competition for Kent last year? I don't recall.

My basic point is that for the first time in a long time, the Dodgers are actually out maneuvering other teams in the FA market.

True but just several months ago the general media consensus and many posters around here was that the Dodgers were in tatters, that no one would want to play for us, that our budget would only be 75 million at best.
Since then we have convinced Furcal to take us over the Cubs, Mueller to take us over the Pirates(no big deal I know), Nomar to take us over the Yankee's and the up and coming Indians. In Furcal's case the money was the thing but that got the ball rolling.
Plus our budget is now approaching 100 million and I don't think you could have found the most optimistic fan who would have thought we'd have a 100 million budget. NOT one prospect has been dealt. Even without adding one more pitcher we are as we stand the best team in the West with trading chips up the wazoo come July in Izzy and the kids. And not a Snow, Jones, Soriano, or any other lame deal rumored to have a shred of truth. I'm sorry we lose Choi in all this, but I'm excited about this team and the future of this team cause our longest committment was for 3 years and that to a 28 year old.

Rosenthal seems to think, in his notes, that Weaver could accept arbitration because of the various moves. Would Boras even allow that if Weaver wanted to stay here? Weaver's value wouldn't be much lower next year, and he could somehow earn a little more were he to pitch really well

I just can't vision nomar at 1b.
Choi/seanz platoon produced last year.
Our holes last year minus the injuries were 3b, lf, ss, ned has filled those holes with mueller nomar and furcal, and cruz fills the hole created by bradley being traded or sanders comes in and cruz goes to the bench.

As far as how ned has done, i'd say pretty good considering the thin market this year and he has signed guys to short term contracts and has yet to trade any top prospects.

I'm not high on furcal nomar mueller, mueller is the only one with a good obp track record but with little power, and nomar is the only one with a good power/slg track record but nothing special obp wise, and furcal has nothing special at all, but nomar is only 1 year and mueller only 2 years.

And if getting furcal means the end of izturis, then i'm all for it.

Hopefully ned does not trade any top prospects, i'm sketchy about this because we still need a starting pitcher. Please just sign millwood and don't trade prospects for pitching.

56-Do you want to be able to "afford" a starting pitcher given what Washburn and Morris got? In light of the market for starting pitching and the durability of some of our players, I like the strategy of stocking up on low-risk guys on short contracts. Our money is best spent improving our offense.

We then see how the non-roster invitees do, maybe sign a Tomko on the cheap, give Bills a chance and see where we are two months into the season, when we can make a trade for a starter if appropriate. That's traditionally been Billy Beane's strategy.

66 I agree wholeheartedly. My only concern is that perhaps he has emptied the coffers without addressing the holes in the rotation. That said, perhaps he has a plan for that too (Weaver and a trade?).

YES! Party at Nomar's place this weekend!

Thinking of Weaver, does anyone think there will come a point when teams will ignore Boras's clients, and having Boras as your agent will actually become a bad thing? I mean, as long as his clients get their money i guess they'll be ok with him, but at some point, i wonder if his ridiculous demands, plus the fact that his clients routinely don't sign until Jan will turn off most teams?

67

I think Boras would allow Weaver to accept arbitration, if that's what Weaver wanted. Sure Boras is a lech, however I think Boras gets a bad rap with the portrayal of him as some sort of dictator to his clients. I remember when Gagne was pulled from his starter role and made into a closer, Boras raised the issue with the Dodger brass at the time, and Gagne told him to cool it -- that he relished the closer's role and Boras backed down. That's why I don't have any sympathy for Beltre. He took the money over the hometown, not Boras.

67--I'd be kind of surprised if Weaver accepts arbitration given these contracts being handed out. Weaver accepts and gets about 9-10M on a one year deal. Can't Boras get him Morris money or at least get close, something like 2 years 18M or 3 yrs. 24M?

72--Yes, I think having Boras will hurt you. Sheff fired Boras, two thirds of the teams won't draft you if Boras is your agent. Ned got the best of Boras with Barry. Boras made ridiculous demands and eventually Barry's only real option was to accept Ned's arbitration offer. With Depo gone, Boras has lost another suitor; e.g., no way Ned does the Drew deal IMO, and Ned called his bluff with Bonds.

I think that the roster could take Nomar in LF, and Lofton and Sanders. Werth will start the season injured, and Colletti should do everything in his power to make sure Repko starts the season in AAA and if he does find him self on the 25-man roster, its strickly as a 5th outfielder. On opening day the season Nomar, Drew, and Sanders would start with Lofton, Ledee, and Cruz on the bench. Considering the brittleness of Drew, Nomar Sanders and Ledee, and the age of Sanders and Lofton, you really dont have anyone that you can count on for more than 120 games. But there is the depth to makeup for any injuries. The problems are:

1) What do you do with Werth when he comes of the DL?

2) Can you afford both Lofton and Sanders and have enough money left to get another starter?

But I think its a more probable situation than many may think.

69 You mention the one area where Ned hasn't done much. We have 2 NRIs right now. Jon Weber pitched last year and has a great arm, but he's not a pitcher (his inning of work came in an extra inning affair, with Loney in RF and Langill at 1B, Weber was wild and lost the game). Tydus Meadows, like Weber, is an OF.

Billingsley should get an invitation, who else in the minors is worthy? Orenduff? Juarez? Stults? Hull?

As others have mentioned, it could be Lima time, with Lima being an NRI. Not sure about this, but don't NRI's happen after the non-tender deadline and some of the free agents have been sorted out?

Re minors, don't a bunch of guys get invitations and then get sent to minor league camp after a couple weeks of spring training?

76 probable? problematic? I agree with you in spirit if not in (semantic) truth.

76--your post suggests why it is unlikely that we will get both Sanders and Lofton, unless Nomar is definitely at 1b. Neither of those guys are going to take a contract without being assured of a starting position or in Lofton's case at least the better side of a platoon.

78 Depends who you are. The Marlins have at least 11 NRIs already

So, do we now pass on Damon just to staunch the Los Angeles Red Sox of Los Angeles chattering?

76 - Re: Werth's return from the DL...If there's a logjam in the OF, I would think Little would play whoever's healthy & hot at the time.

Good point. Not sure what Ned's philosophy is re NRIs. Evans was pretty good in this area (I guess not having any money to spend thanks to Malone Evans had nowhere else to focus his time).

82--Lol. Seriously, we have to pass on Damon, IMO, due to his 4-5 years of demands. Wonder if LA's "offer" to him was a fiction created by Boras to get Boston to bid against itself.

come on. we'd at least be the blue sox.

actually, that kinda has a ring to it.

85 - Yeah, Ned probably called Boras and said I'll give Damon 3 yrs. Boras said no way... meanwhile Boras to the MSM portrays the 2 minute phonecall as the Dodgers being "interested" in Damon's services... whatever.

Courtesy of BostonDirtDogs:

http://tinyurl.com/bn8lu

If Ned were to offer Damon anything more than 3 years then I would consider it his first mis-step...

[88] hey wait a sec, that's hee seop's number.

The one part of Rosenthal's article that makes the most sense is the fact that Normar would want to play one position and not switch positions during the year. SInce the outfield is the most unsetteled that would seem to make the most sense, neither Lofton or Sanders have made a promise of coming to LA. With Werth starting on the DL, left field would seem to offer Normar the chance to play one position.

86 - How about the LA GIANT BLUE SOX...oooh it hurts to type that!

Vishal, there actually used to be a team in the NY-Penn League named that: http://tinyurl.com/clv9k

62
Thanks for pointing that out. I knew the "C" didn't belong but I didn't want to omit it since it was pasted directly from the baseball abstract.

Pardon me if this has been said here previously but...

I don't see a problem with the infield assuming Garciaparra plays first. Izturis is on track to return sometime in July although rumors suggest it might actually be August. Is it such a horrible idea to give him some extended rehab time in Jacksonville or Las Vegas then use him in the utility role to finish out the season? That is of course assuming that Nomar, Kent, Furcal, and Mueller stay healthy.

After this season Kent likely retires or moves on as his deal is only through 2006. Nomar will either be looking at an extension or on his way to team #4. So Izturis comes back in 2007 strong as the everyday second baseman.

I don't get all the hang wringing about Izturis coming back and everyone having to move around. To me this is all very logical and easy to fix.

86
I think the "Blue Sox" could get some marketing muscle behind it. I'd wear it. Maybe we can pick up Arroyo for our 4th spot.

95
I don't see a problem with the infield assuming Garciaparra plays first.

The problem with the infield assuming Garciaparra plays first is that said infield would not include Choi.

91--Agreed. I believe that Ned has told Nomar where he will play but Ned just hasn't shared that information. It would be neither fair nor wise to have Nomar learn two new positions (LF and 1b). Given Ned's recognition of OF being a bigger need than 1b, I hope Ned has told Nomar that he's playing LF. Our OF is so thin otherwise. If Ned told Nomar that he's playing 1b, then we're still precariously thin in the OF and Ned must get Lofton and Sanders or we've got too many holes.

I personally think that we will get Lofton or Sanders but not both. I suspect Ned has told or implied to them that whoever accepts first gets the deal.

I think Izzys gonna be the odd man out.

99
Is he?

95 My hand wringing is over the fact that Izturis comes back at all. He is a bad hitter at any position, so if he isn't playing SS his value goes down even more. Going from Kent to Izturis at 2B would be like trading in your Bentley for an broke down El Camino because its body was in great shape.

96. Have you given your Home Depo shirt to Good Will to make room for your Blue Sox shirt?

Even if Ned had no interest in Choi, I can't see any reason not to tender Choi a contract. Even if he really wants Sanders and Lofton, we don't yet have them and probably won't by Tuesday. In case neither of them come here, we have Choi as a back up plan for a realitively cheap contract. Should we get Sanders and Lofton, we could move Choi for something. Other than being forced to pay Choi Alomar-type money, what good reason is there not to tender Choi a contract?

My Home Depo shirt has become the one I wear all weekend when I know I won't be leaving the house. Like this weekend.

103
If Sean Burroughs can get a 1.5 million deal then Choi should be able to do the same or more in arbitration. So we still have lots of questions. If Nomar is headed for LF then Ned is okay entering 2006 with a Choi/Saenz platoon and Choi will certainly be offered arbitration. If Nomar is headed to 1st base then I could see a scenario where the Dodgers non-tender Choi and it would be best for Choi if they did, so he could pick and choose his next team.

If Nomar plays 1B, I would think we should get something decent for Choi in a trade before Tuesday.

Why sign Lofton and Sanders,especially with Nomar signing.Lofton at this point can't have much more than Cruz or Ledee.Sanders on the other hand probably has 20-25 homeruns in him.
Why not play Nomar at first backed by James Loney,trade Choi,make Saenz the primary pinchhitter.If you need another outfielder give Delwyn Young a shot.If Weaver accepts arbitration,Penny,Lowe,Weaver,Perez and either Houlton,Jackson or Billingsley is as good as anyone in the west.

101
I don't think its fair to say Izturis is a bad hitter. For the first couple months of last season he was leading the league in hits. We have no idea how long his elbow was bothering him.

I think you can make a case that he shouldn't have been the leadoff man but for a ss/2b with his defensive capabilities I think he is a more than capable 7th or 8th place hitter.

At this point I think we're stuck with Cruz and Ledee coming off the bench is fine by me. Despite what Drew thinks he should play rightfield to avoid further injuries. I like either Lofton or Sanders in center and some Cruz/Werth/Repko combo in left.

Initially I liked the idea of Nomar in left but if the reports are correct we've told him he won't have to switch positions twice. That being the case and his injuries the last 3-4 years factored in I think he gets first and Choi is on the trading block.

Billy Beane has to love Choi. He's a 15-pitch-per-at-bat-walk-generating machine. Package him Odalis Perez and a top prospect for Zito.

Well, I think Nick Buonaconti can rest easy. Looks like the Colts are going down.

I think Lofton will end up in Arizona, leadoff hitter plus college roots. With the Dodgers he wouldn't be a leadoff hitter. Sanders to me seems to be the more likely Dodger. If they do sign Sanders, one has to wonder if they will have the money for a pitcher.

One other reason why I think Nomar is headed to left field, if the Dodgers do want to consider giving Looney some at bats-Coletti says he is untouchable, you would think that they would want to leave some at bats for Looney, and the Choi Saenz platoon would seem to be the best for that opportunity.

I don't think Beane has much use for Choi. He's already got Dan Johnson for less money and (arguably) more or as much production. He's got Swisher potentially playing some at 1b to make room in the OF.

109
Despite what Drew thinks he should play rightfield to avoid further injuries.

Um, didn't Drew want to play CF because he thought it would place less stress on his knees?

"On the other hand, it is possible that Garciaparra + Choi's trade value > Choi. It's possible. Is there one team out there that believes in Choi and would trade a decent starting pitcher for him?"

Choi to Boston for Wells?

Don't the Red Sox need a first baseman so Ortiz can DH? Choi/Ortiz combo works on so many levels haha.

Aww you beat me to it jtshoe

115
Big Pappi and Big Choppy...?

Be fitting the Red Sox pick up another power lefty that was non tendered then thrives in Boston.

Because we all read the Oklahoman, I'm not sure why I'm posting this, but here's an interesting article on Kemp:

http://www.newsok.com/article/1708752/

106 - If Nomar plays 1B, I would think we should get something decent for Choi in a trade before Tuesday.

If we got a minor league prospect for Bradley, I find it hard to believe that we are going to get anything of value for Choi.

But teams could just filibuster until after the non-tender deadline hoping Choi is let go for them to pick up free. Another reason why Ned needs to at least say he'll tender Choi a contract even if he has a Tracy-like hatred for Choi

52. D4P
40,45
Yes, I think most of us would rather see Choi start for another team than rot on the bench again for the Dodgers.

Do you still hope that he starts if he goes on to sign for the Giants?

Me, if he's traded away from the Dodgers, "he's dead to me".

I just don't understand all the love on this board for Choi. LOL!!!

He's the pride of a whole country (even told to me by my Korean professor). Got to root for a guy like that.

122
Me, if he's traded away from the Dodgers, "he's dead to me".

In most cases, that's how I feel. But Choi has a special place in the hearts of many Dodger fans.

122
PS: I think I'd find it easier to root for Choi as a Giant than I do Kent as a Dodger.

122 Normally I'm pretty much the same way, but with all the time we've invested projecting how he would play given normal playing time, I think we're all veeery interested in seeing how the story would play out.

125 - That's just odd.

113
Yes he said that. Which is why I said play him in left despite what he says. I know what his reasoning is but it doesn't make sense. Center is more ground to cover and he doesn't have the knees or speed for it.

124
No, Choi has a lot of love from the online fans who seek out non-traditional stats. I'm rooting for the guy but I don't try to pretend he's anything more than an unproven streaky guy. I think the majority of Dodger fans see Nomar as a major upgrade from Choi. Like it or not I think if you are honest you have to agree with that.

128-
Drew said he can not play left because of the turns he has to make hurt his knee. Yes, that is how much of a gimp he is.

Just to confirm the assume, dodgers.com has the Nomar signing as a done deal with a press conference scheduled for tomorrow.

*assumed

129 OPS is a non-traditional stat? Maybe the stat itself is fairly new, but the ingredients in it are pretty commonplace.

129--

I think a lot of fans see him as a major upgrade, where in reality he's more of a minor one. But it's true--too--the passionate Choi supporters resemble the LoDuca brigade more than they'd care to admit. He would be at most a minor loss. He will not go somewhere else and hit 40 home runs. I'd prefer to get something for him in trade (who wouldn't?) but won't be devastated if he's non-tendered. No one should be, except those who value him for sentimental reasons (which are perfectly allowable, so far as I'm concerned.) What matters most, though, is the team seems to be markedly improving itself for next year without mortgaging its future. Once again, and still, so far so good.

129 In his prime, he's a major upgrade. But I think a lot of us can honestly say that someone who hasn't had a higher OPS than Choi since 2003, and has played fewer games than Drew in the last 3 years is not a major upgrade over Choi

I wonder if people's attachment to Choi here springs from a combination of his stats (clearly), his mistreatment by Tracy, and his personal likeability.

I met the Big Heesy at a Starbucks in Beverly Hills the day after he was traded to the Dodgers (a Monday off-day after the Sunday night game in San Diego). He was just really nice and pleasant, kind of shy. That's of course not an argument to keep him around, but it's part of his overall appeal to me.

Incidentally, I recall Nomar being dumped by the Sox because he had become a real pain in the butt ("clubhouse cancer", anyone?) in the clubhouse. As for the Big Heesy, a Dodger wife with whom I am acquainted has said Choi is generally very well liked in teh clubhouse.

All this is neither here nor there; just a little human interest, and it points out The Mr Ned may be a little inconsistent in his reasoning.

I am not The Mr Ned, just A Mr Ned...

136
*it points out The Mr Ned may be a little
inconsistent in his reasoning.*

Yep. (1) Sign a double-DUI guy and (2) keep one of the biggest jerks in the game, then get rid of one of the most popular players on and off the field, all while spouting off about character and makeup.

What is Choi's projected salary for next year?

136 - I agree that Choi appears to be likable, was mistreated by tracy, and has good potential. However, he is still unproven compared to Nomar. I don't see how Mr. Ned is inconsistent in his reasoning.

At least there's some good news. The AP story on Nomar says he could play the outfield. I'm still waiting for some Colletti quotes, but it's nice to see the unbiased report state that he isn't necessarily the starting 1B. He passed his physical...

I'm a Korean and I have a penchant for Moneyballism which helps explain why I'm such a big Hee Seop Choi fan along with all the other arguments listed here today (Jim Tracy's misuse of him; general likeability, et all).

Also, why trade away such a popular Dodger with such low trade value? HEE SEOP CHOI! HEE SEOP CHOI! HEE SEOP CHOI! Trading LoDuca was akin to selling a stock when it was at or near its historic highs. Trading Choi right now would be akin to selling a growth stock right before it might take off, so I must respectfully rebut the 134 arguments comparing LoDuca to Choi.

I, for one, will be rooting for Korea in the World Baseball Classic and wouldn't mind seeing Hee Seop hit some homers for Korea.....

I think my experience as a Dodger fan this past season mirrored that of some Dodger fans on this message board where I become almost more of a Hee Seop fan than a Dodger fan. With Tracy's clear mishandling of the roster and the Dodgers out of the pennant race, I derived more utility personally rooting for Hee Seop to do well than the likes of Derek Lowe, Jeff Weaver, Mike Edwards, Jeff Kent, Jason Phillips, Jayson Werth and other such productive and not-so productive players alike fighting to get to second place to give Jim Tracy some bragging rights.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but if Choi's not a Dodger next year, I suppose I'll still be a Dodger fan, but I'd be rooting for Choi to well wherever he goes.

PILSUNG KOREA!

140 - I think Colletti is doing just fine thus far. He did however trumpet his convictiuon that character and chemistry are most important to him (seemingly contrasting himself with Depodesta). Thus far, signing Furcal and Garciaparra are not entirely consistent with those principles. It's okay by me. I do wonder though, what are the principles on which he makes decisions: specific stats, reputation, star power, general appearance?

I am sure Little had a lot to do with Nomar coming. He was not the manager when Nomar was traded. I wonder if he thinks that Nomar is a cancer

From the AP article,
"New Dodgers GM Ned Colletti said Garciaparra seemed open to changing positions during his meetings late last week."

Seemed open? Wouldn't you want assurances considering you have 2 shortstops and have just signed a third baseman?

138--I'm sure Colletti, like most of us, is indeed inconsistent in his reasoning. I'm sure too, like most able politicians, he's willing to sell us (or Plaschke) a bill of goods about how character matters and so on. But I reckon the yardstick here is whether the team in question wins or loses. I for one could care less how many puppies the Big Heesy pets or whether Jeff Kent is an aloof jerk who likes to read motocross mags. I care that the management is attempting to assemble a contending team. I'd prefer that team to be comprised entirely of nice people and model citizens, but I'd love to know of any team in the history of baseball that was, let alone a winning team.

I don't know if Garciaparra is a real or an imagined upgrade (I somehow suspect, a little bit of both) but I do support the signing and would rather have, say, him AND Reggie Sanders than just plain old Choi. I would. And it seems at least partially sentimental to argue otherwise.

146
But I reckon the yardstick here is whether the team in question wins or loses.

How does Milton Bradley measure up against this yardstick?

124. D4P
"In most cases, that's how I feel. But Choi has a special place in the hearts of many Dodger fans. "

Yeah, and if he leaves that special place for me...well, I'm sitting on it.

I really don't understand people who see Nomar as an upgrade when the whole point of Jon's post yesterday was that he was clearly not. A contention backed up with numbers. Why are such statements being made, after having a whole day to hash out the details. It is like walking outside on a sunny day, wondering what color the sky is.

142--Let it not be said I did not enjoy the chant as much as everyone. It was one of the few things in '05 I did enjoy. I would certainly root for Choi to do well elsewhere (as I wouldn't necessarily for, say, Kent) and I thought the LoDuca trade to be more-or-less a sound one. The question is whether you think (or I think) Choi will reach his alleged potential. I tend to doubt it, for reasons that are neither perfectly supported nor unsupported. Plenty of people think otherwise and time only will tell. But I'm afraid I remain a Dodger fan first and tend to root hardest for whoever's wearing the uniform. Sad--and not rational--but such is the way with lifelong passions, generally.

If Choi gets non-tendered, who would be the primary 1B if/when Nomar gets injured? Saenz can't handle a full workload, would it be Kent at 1B and Aybar at 2B? Does management think Loney is ready? It would make more sense to add Nomar to the OF mix since there are more formidable back-up plans if/when he gets injured.

Unfortunately, sometimes this place seems more like CHOI THOUGHTS instead of DODGER THOUGHTS.

152 As opposed to dodgers.com forum being choisucks.com?

151 - There are a lot of "What IF's" with the signing of Nomar.

Want answeres...Press conference scheduled for Monday afternoon

152 - I tend to agree. Other than the people who post on this site, I can honestly say that I don't know another person that thinks highly of Choi as a baseball player.

150 Indeed, rooting for a team regardless of what multiple owners do to destroy the team certainly isn't rational, but I suppose Frank McCourt is going to profit from the inelastic demand of Dodgers fans -- myself included.

Players come and go, I suppose, but it's just a shame when certain players leave without really haven been given much of a chance...

147--In what sense? I mean, Milton Bradley's a good player, but fragile in more than one way and perhaps unlikely ever to become a great one. I liked him, would've preferred to have kept him, and think his loss is one we can probably weather all the same.

149--It's not especially like that. Jon's post indicated numbers from last year and the second-half of '04. Next season hasn't been played yet though so it's more like looking at a forecast and wondering whether the future will agree with it.

155 Consider it a backlash against conventional wisdom.

134- The Choi Brigade and the Lo Duca Brigade could hardly be more different. I like both players, and the difference in being a fan of one vs. the other is stark.

From 2001 on, 99 percent of Dodger fans never had an unkind word for Lo Duca other than, "He tails off in the second half." In contrast, the majority of Los Angeles has assumed the worst about Choi his entire career here.

From 2001-2004, Lo Duca fans never had to justify Lo Duca's existence, and from 2004-2005, they had a wide swath of sympathizers. Those who see something of value in Choi are always forced to explain why he even deserves to wear a uniform. Small claims of value are then taken by the anti-Choi crowd as attempts to nominate him into the Hall of Fame.

Choi's defenders are passionate because he needs it. Lo Duca hasn't needed that kind of defense in a long, long time.

142
There is nothing at all wrong with rooting for Choi for all the reasons you stated. I have a little more regard for JD Drew because like me he's from Georgia. So I must imagine that being Korean and having Choi is 10x that.

I hope Choi has a great career. And it'd be nice if that was with the Dodgers. But the big guy had plenty of chances last year to snatch the 1B job away from Philips, Saenz, Kent, etc. and he never did. You can blame it on Tracy's lack of consistent playing time if you want but the fact is he got a good many starts at first and was always streaky.

Shawn Green was a great guy, a loyal teammate, a hero for the Jewish community in LA, etc. Yet I think his streaky abilities led to him getting traded. Well that and his salary but didn't we pick up a large chunk of that? :)

157 Well, you've said a lot when a guy coming off surgery to repair a groin tendon ripping off the bone and is on the wrong side of 30 is an upgrade over a 27 year old guy who's been much healthier over the same period.

152, 155

You do not think it's smarter to play both Choi and Nomar? We want to maximize our potential with the players we have and having Nomar play LF and Choi/Saenz playing first, I think is the best way to maximize our talent.

155
Other than the people who post on this site, I can honestly say that I don't know another person that thinks highly of Choi as a baseball player.

Depo...?

Many people at AthleticsNation seem to like him hahaha and of course South Korea.

And plenty of other internet baseball communities also do. People on Hardball Times and Baseball Prospectus.

155 Well, a lot of the Baseball America guys thought he might be the next big thing a few years back

152 - Exhibit A.

Dodgers who have gotten discussed at exhausting length on Dodger Thoughts in 2005:

All of them.

The fact that you single Choi out as unfortunate hints at more of the irrational feelings people have against him, and why people are moved to defend him.

There are better Dodgers, worse Dodgers, nicer Dodgers, meaner Dodgers, older Dodgers, younger Dodgers. All of whom there are fervently different opinions on. Trade Gagne - yes or no. Trade Kent, yes or no. Play Antonio Perez - yes or no. Re-sign Weaver, yes or no.

But god forbid we spend a couple of days talking about Choi - who otherwise hasn't had three words set about him here in the last two months. That qualifies as an unfortunate occurence on Dodger Thoughts.

159.

Not to mention the fact that many LoDuca fans would hate Choi simply because he's the player that was traded for the fan favorite. HSC never really had a chance which, I'll admit, is a huge part of the reason why I root for the guy.

129 Warren
I think the majority of Dodger fans see Nomar as a major upgrade from Choi. Like it or not I think if you are honest you have to agree with that.

we have to agree with what, Warren? That the majority of dodger fans think that or that Nomah is a major upgrade over Choi? if it is the former who cares what the majority of Dodger fans think and who made you their spokesman ?if it is the latter then you are mistaken and it's been proven time and time again on this site. Not trying to start a choi fight again but your statement is a bit obnoxious in many ways.

167.

Also, the Choi discussion is relavent, considering the signing of Nomar to possibly play his position. It certainly hasnt come out of nowhere.

Not that there is a lot of thinking going on. Again.

I remember always feeling that Billy Ashley never got much of chance to prove himself with the Dodgers. There was a certain Choi-ness about him. Perhaps Choi is not unique and there are many players who become the topic of contentious debates like this. Others, e.g. Karros and LoDuca, get a free pass from the conventional-wisdom-makers.

Franklin Stubbs, anyone? Lee Lacy?

167 True, except I doubt there's a nicer Dodger than Hee Seop.

160 Yes, we did, $10 million if I remember correctly. And that made as little sense then as it does now: We paid $10 million of his $16 million salary last year. Why wasn't it smart for us to pay the other $6 million and get his production on our sheet? That was preferrable to Edwards, Repko and Cruz. Bad deal.

172 Paul Konerko???

174
The argument at the time (which I didn't buy) was essentially that the Dodgers wouldn't have been able to sign Lowe unless they traded Green.

174 Would you have rathered the extra 2-3 wins last year over Navarro's future? And Juarez played a large role in winning the Southern League Championship, if you care about such things

175- Right on. The Konerko saga is a (rather specific) cautionary tale about giving up on a young power hitter (who strikes out a lot) in order to preserve space for a proven veteran (Karros).

Coincidentally, Choi beat out Karros for the 1st-base job in Chicago. EK couldn't win them all.

What controversy was Lee Lacy subject to? Lopes beat him out for the second place job. Lacy developed into a utility man and extra outfielder. He got chances to start for other teams (Baltimore, Pittsurgh) and played for 16 seasons.

Back in the '60s I think Frank Howard had the same perception problem that Choi has today. Both are/were very big guys who, when they look bad, look really bad. Howard didn't get much of a break in L.A. but put up a couple monster years in D.C. when he got his chance. I suspect Choi may need to go somewhere else too to really get a shot as a full-time starter.

It's looking like the primary Dodger benefit of the Depo era is the fiscal education of Frank McCourt. The primary learning is that he can't drop payroll to $75M in one year in the Dodger market, as he required Depo to do. McCourt's early vision of a low cost and successful Moneyball team in LA appears to be going, going, gone. The 2006 payroll is nearly $90M now, and there's still pitching to buy. I wonder what Depo would have done with a $100-110M payroll.

176 What didn't you buy? That 6 million dollars comes in handy? Green has underperformed for years and Depo saved money (that went towards Lowe's huge contract) and further got the guy who is starting at catcher for us this year.

181
Is it generally accepted around here that, during the Depo era, McCourt was McCheap rather than Depo was Cheapo?

182
I didn't buy that McCourt could not possibly have signed Lowe without the $6 million. Green's performance and the acquisition of Navarro are separate considerations.

174 -- Because he didn't produce.

As Danny Kaye sang,
"Here comes Big Frank Howard, yis sirree! Boy what a swing! STRIKE THREE!"

159--All I'm suggesting, Jon, is that the support for Choi is no more "rational" in fact than that for LoDuca. The former certainly could use it--and indeed I think deserves it--more than the latter.

1) I like getting Garciaparra but won't like it as much if he's playing first. As has been demonstrated, a platoon of Choi and Saenz is good, cheap and, on a per dollar basis, very, very valuable.

2) Forget about getting Lofton or Sanders. It's pointless spending. With Garciaparra playing left, Cruz in right, Drew in center and Ledee/Repko/Grabass on the bench, we've got enough outfielders.

3) Any money we've got left shold be put toward some kind, any kind of starting pitcher.

188

If you're alluding to Grabowski, he's playing in Japan in 2006.

I think we're starting to go from the sublime to the ridiculous in this Choi discussion.He is an intriguing player who definitely has some holes in his game.On a bad team if he got 500 ab's he might hit .260 with 30 homeruns or he might not.I think Loney will zip past him sooner or later anyways.
Here comes the ridiculous,Pseudo Mr.Ed said Billy Ashley and Franklin Stubbs never got a fair shot.Huh? How about Angel Pena or R.J Reynolds or a host of other overhyped prospects.
I say the real Mr.Ed is making bold yet balanced moves to field a competitive team and keep our prospects.Bravo.

183

Can you call two years an era? McCourt is not cheap. the facts do not suppor that. He borrowed money to buy the team so that makes him "cheap" to the LA Times and others.

181,183,

I think DePo was rather clear in his statements last year that he did have $100 million available to him but that he was saving the remainder for the trading deadline. Also, if I remember correctly, our payroll last year was $88 million, not $75 million.

190 - Agreed on Coletti's moves thus far.

I would not propose that Ashley and Stubbs didn't get fair shots (Stubbs surely seemed to). Just wondering out loud if this argument has been argued before.

Thanks for reminding me of Angel Pena! He was definitely the next big thing at one time. And RJ Reynolds; I'm sure we all remember THE SQUEEZE!!! As for over-hyped, Greg Brock.

This should be re-posted because, (1) it is true and (2) the idea that the "Choi Brigade," whatever that is, should be lumped in with the zealots that make up the God of LoDuca cult, is patently absurd.

Although I think Choi should start at 1B, a 110 OPS+ at a traditional power position for a league average fielder isn't actually all that much to get excited about. I know Choi looks okay in the NL (I think Jon had some figures on this), but just because we don't have as many traditional slugger corner IFs in the league today doesn't mean that 1B isn't still a traditional power position. I think it's fine in our circumstances, especially when you've got a potential HOFer at 2B and a stud at SS, but as a 1B at least, I think it's defensible to say that Choi's raw numbers have not been what one would normally expect out of that position.

I actually think those numbers should be adjusted for misuse by Tracy, and the hope that Choi will improve, but really, the way certain stats were bandied around here on this thread as objective truth to support one position seems a bit much at times. The raw stats only show that Choi has so far been an okay player--his career OPS+ is 107 and his fielding Rate2 is 99. His career EqA is 275, league average being set at 260. Assuming one didn't have a Kent and Furcal in the IF, and that Choi didn't improve (a debatable but possible proposition), Choi would be a below-average 1B. That's all the raw objective numbers say so far.

One is, admittedly, at a loss to respond to brazenly nonsensical statements like "Hee Seop Choi is one of the worst options at first base in the major leagues." It is, therefore, easy to mistake the effort to correct the record to reflect that Hee Seop Choi is a useful, flawed, somewhat average (at least now) first baseman as a deification campaign. But it is not Choi's supporters that mirror the LoDuca Brigade's tactics. It is Choi's detractors, unsurprising when one considers how a Venn diagram of LoDuca supporters and Choi detractors would look.

On the other hand, 190 has just repeated that Choi is "intriguing" with "holes in his game," phrases that have been used by his supporters with a frequency that can now be characterized as "ad nauseum."

162. I thought Depo did post here? haha Choi deserved a chance, and to me, he never got it. Nor has Repko. I define "a chance" as giving a particular position to a player for at least half a season. That being said, I think that most have missed the point with Nomar. We are only paying 6 million for him, and have a good shot at getting alot more than that out of him. At his peak, Nomar is better than Choi. I do see Choi as the ultimate poster boy for Saber minded folks, because they are sure they can "see" something that the chemists cannot or will not. I am neither a chemist or a saber guy. I do believe that if anyone is THAT sure about a baseball statistic, they have too much confidence in statistics. And the ultimate statistic, is how many wins and how many losses you have.

Jon,

The "I Agree" statement had a bit of sarcasm to it in that I have been antagonizing the Choi supporters over the last couple of days, sorry, there was no ill will intended.

I am all for talking about Choi, especially because its rather clear where I stand on the issue (see yesterday's posts). I agreed with that statement because there is clearly two sides with the Choi issue...I am clearly on one side, I don't think Choi is a good baseball player. A lot of people on this site feel differently. I have posted more in the last two days than I have since I started visiting the site nearly two years ago mainly because the Choi issue has been a great debate. Any negative sentiments are due to the fact that I am on one side of the fence with Choi and I tend to see his stats/value in a different light than many of the other people who defend Choi. I'm allowed that right as are the people who see him as valuable.

Bottom line, it's a good thing and you've provided a great place to voice my opinion and allowed for fellow Dodger fans to debate the Choi issue...it's a good thing. Choi Thoughts for the last couple of days...I love debating with all the Choi lovers on this site.

Later

I don't think Barry Bonds is a good baseball player. I have a right to disagree with you and I don't have to listen to you. Later.

P.S. Babe Ruth was overhyped.

197. haha, were you around in the 1920's and 1930's, because you do kinda sound like a grumpy old man.

What about HEE is Left Field?

Seriously....we now have 4 shortstops on the 25 man.

If I were Hee, I would make like Konerko and learn to play the outfield in order to increase my value to the team. Ultimately didn't get Konerko very far (except to Cincinnatti), but a good career move for hee.

Steve makes a fair point in #194. Thanks for reposting that.

I, for one, am excited that we are signing Nomar. Even if '06 is a "transitional year" between veterans and waiting for the youngsters to arrive, it's encouraging to see that we've some quality, .300-hitting veteran players. As opposed to last season when we couldn't acquire a 4th outfielder (or third baseman, or ......)

Furcal, Nomar, Mueller ... If the idea is to win fans back, it feels like it's working.

What about Hee as a starting pitcher? The last time I checked the Dodgers needed some of those. Because you know if you don't have a starting pitcher, the games take a long time because the ball just sits there on the mound and nobody throws it.

190-
Why would you assume that Loney will "zip past" Choi sooner or later? He's never had higher than a .776 OPS in four years of minor league play. Hee Sop has bettered that each of the last two years at the major league level.

201
Oddly enough, this fan is not going to renew his mini season ticket plan because they have poor selections of games and I also couldn't find any friends to go with me to many of the games.

I'm going to see if the Dodgers offer a "Lonely Angry Man with a Scorebook" mini season ticket plan. I can buy 10 games and be promised to have nobody hit a beach ball near me or tell me that J.T. Snow's father was a senator.

159
Right on. Plus I don't think there is a "nicer" Dodger.

Don't dog on Lee Lacy. He's got a few rings that he was an integral part of and he is a very nice guy. He's the only Dodger I've ever sat and talked to at a bar and it was way cool to be a huge fan since I was 15 and then find out the guy was as nice as can be.

204 - If that LAMS package gets offered, you can count me in as well!

Jon - Meant to add, nice AD reference in he headline. Come on!

If we resign Weaver, will Gagne be satisfied and convinced we're not the Brewers?

I think the majority of Dodger fans see Nomar as a major upgrade from Choi. Like it or not I think if you are honest you have to agree with that. >>>>

Fact that the majority of fans see Nomar as a major upgrade at 1b may be a boost to pre-season ticket sales, which is a factor of sorts. It may be enough to recoup the 5.5 million difference in payroll cost.

But irrespective of fans' opinions, is this is NOT a major upgrade over '05. Nomar in his last good season (2003) hit 28 HR's with a 121 OPS+. The '05 Dodgers got 31 HR's and a 115 OPS+ out of their first basemen. Of course, Choi and Saenz could wilt in '06 in which case Nomar is a real improvement. It's also possible that Nomar's injuries have taken a toll and he's no better than his last 600 PA's (18 HR's and 107 OPS+). Or that Nomar's groin may flair again and Saenz will have to play fulltime despite his tepid 756 OPS v. righthanders. Or that Kent will moved over to become essentially a leag avg 1bmen while Izturis' career 69 OPS+ gets 2b. In which case Nomar has been an expensive DOWNGRADE at 1b.

Nomar doesn't solve 2005's major problem which was left field, with its pathetic 603 OPS. LA has a chance to grab an added 3 wins there with a true hitter, not 1st base. Whether Reggie Sanders, who's the expected solution to LF (if he accepts Dodgers' offer), can overcome health/age decline concerns is also another interesting question.

isn't his first name "hee seop"? calling him as "hee" seems a bit like referring to a guy named james as "jam".

who care what gagne thinks, i care more about his right elbow

Personally, i think we should be more excited about Nomar, sure he has some durability question marks, but lets not let a downer 2005 season kill our optomism. Nomar was one of the most exciting players in baseball for years, and still has the ability to be a high-average hitter, for the first time im actually really looking forward to 2006.

His family name is Choi (pronounced "Cheh") and his given names are Hee Seop (pronounced "Hee Supp"). Family name comes first n Korea. Therefore in Korean, he is (phonetically): Cheh Hee Supp.

Of course, Choi and Saenz could wilt in '06 in which case Nomar is a real improvement.

Clearly another case of a Choi acolyte jumping overboard. At this rate, his own supporters will have him fit for a slow pitch softball uniform. Physician, heal thyself.

Since we are at the 40 man roster limit, how does Nomar's addition relate to the non-tender deadline on Tuesday? Do we DFI Phillips, or take somebody like Myrow off the 40-man?

We should certainly know more about the first base situation tomorrow at 5:00 PM. If Ned doesn't answer the question in his opening statement, half of the follow up questions from reporters will deal with that topic. Of course Ned doesn't always give direct answers, so that will take us to Tuesday when we find out if Hee Seop is non-tendered.

If Nomar is crowned the new King of First Base, Hee Seop will have a very hard time finding a place on the team. He is not a very good pinch hitter and he only plays one position.

If we carry 11 pitchers and 2 catchers next year, that will leave 12 other roster positions. Everyone seems to feel we're going to need 6 outfielders because everyone playing outfield is either old, injury prone or both. The outfield gets all that much older if we sign Lofton and/or Sanders.

That would leave 6 infielders. Saenz and Robles would seem to have the advantage since Olmedo can play first and third and Robles can play third, short and second.

If we carry 12 pitchers, that would eliminate another outfielder.

Choi's only hope is that Ned really did sign Nomar to play left field.

Let's say that Garciaparra and Choi are roughly a wash offensively. What about the following for 1B rationale?

Hee Seop Choi: 6'5" 240 lbs. Throws Left-Handed. No serious injury history.

Nomar Garciaparra: 6'0" (with stilts?) 190 lbs. Throws Right-Handed. Prone to back and groin problems.

215
Is it only "conventional wisdom" that a first baseman should be tall and left-handed, or are there stats that show that a team is better off with a tall left-hander than a short right-hander?

203
Was reviewing Choi's minor league numbers. Other then his 1st stint at AAA in 01 his numbers were so impressive.

2006 Projections avg/ob/slug/ops from BillJames and BaseballHQ
Choi
258/361/462/823
250/342/441/783
Nomar
307/359/506/865
304/345/475/817
Sanders
253/324/479/803
270/330/527/857
Lofton
283/356/391/747
282/344/371/716

216 -

How tall was Garvey? Seems to me he was considered a pretty good first baseman (as long as he didn't have to throw the ball).

213 Depends on Weaver I'd guess. If he accepts arbitration, then Myrow or Edwards probably is gone, but the rules might allow us to wait until we have a chance to non-tender Phillips. Just dump all 3 as soon as you can...

214 - Well, Nomar's likely to get injured at some point so then wouldn't Choi have a chance to step in?

215, 216 - Not sure about lefty vs. righty but a taller player fully extended can reach out farther to grab a ball than a shorter player. The time saved is minimal but there are a lot of close calls at 1st base, so I can understand the rationale.

#215: And of course there's following:

Hee Seop Choi: 286 Games Played at 1B
Nomar Garciaparra: 0 Games Played at 1B

I will readily admit that Hee Seop Choi is my favorite Dodger for all the reasons that others have already listed (other than being Korean) and thus I am surely biased. Nonetheless, I don't see how any of the Choi Fan Club is being irrational in our defense of him.