I don't want to be mean, but I'm glad Al isn't broadcasting anymore. He just never sounded comfortable behind the mic and made the games kinda hard to listen to. Should be interesting to hear all the new voices.

But Tom Goodwin is on my "Dead to Me" list!

When Yeager finishes a broadcast will he remind dodger fans to "Stay Classy"?

2 - Don't I know it.

For some reason having to do with seeing him play during my one trip to the College World Series, I have never disliked Goodwin. Not that I didn't think he became overvalued, but I've never had anything against him - except that one time when he hit a pinch-homer for the Giants at Dodger Stadium or something like that?

I feel obliged to mention, every time his name comes up, Steve Yeager is my all time favorite player. Tom Goodwin, not so much.

To complete the thought, what's up with Yeager's old roommate Rick Monday? Did he get axed and I slept through it?

I hope the minor league guys get a good shot, if for no other reason than it seems fair to have to work your way up in broadcasting, as opposed to say, saving the American flag, or giving up a gopher ball to Hank Aaron. I don't know if there's a "next Vin Scully," but if there is, I'd be very surprised if he were a ballplayer.

5
Monday called today's game along side Steiner.

I had no great love for Downing, any more than I do for Rick Monday, whom I prefer doing color. Steve Lyons needs to leave town as soon as possible, and Charley Steiner is fine as a play-by-play man. But the news brings up to two points.

One, it's disgraceful and reprehensible that the Dodgers have so little respect for their listeners that they won't put on the same broadcasters. Using guests is the wrong approach, period. For one thing, a broadcast team needs to work together, not rotate. For another, the game is the story, but when a guest is there, it tends to be otherwise.

Two, if the Dodgers are looking for a guest announcer, there's a good one available. He has a lot of experience in broadcasting and with the Dodgers. Some guy named Ross Porter.

Jon - just as I was posting this on the last topic :), okay here is just my comment on the announcement.

Petrotta does the VB Dodger games (2003-2004 he was in Ogden doing the Pioneer League games for the Dodger farm club) and Langer is the Las Vegas club radio broadcaster. Petrotta might have insight on some prospects since he saw Chad and Russ in Ogden and Andy LaRoche (both in Ogden and VB) and Matt Kemp in VB. Also Yeager was a coach at Jacksonville, so that might be interesting if he doesn't go back and tell the story about the invention of the throat protecter.

Tom Goodwin was part of that 1989 first round draft where he was drafted along with Kiki Jones and Jamie McAndrew. Thanks to Dodger Blues.com, players picked later included John Olerud, Tim Salmon, Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Kent, Ryan Klesko and Trevor Hoffman.

4.-- I was there on 7/21/02 when Goodwin took Carrara deep to beat the Dodgers.

IIRC, the Dodgers were still paying most of Goodwin's salary at the time.

Never much care about Goodwin, but Carrara was on my personal "Dead to Me list" since then.

Based on Logan's past history, I will state right now that we will have a better draft this year (3 picks in top 31) than 1989, (three picks in top 28)

6 I figured. A combination of his not being mentioned in Jon's post, the sudden need for fill-ins, and wishful thinking led me to wonder if Monday was out of the picture.

4, 8 - Refresh my memory, didn't we trade somebody useful for our second helping of Goodwin? Can we trade Monday for him now?

Tom Goodwin is on my list because of the home run that Jon alludes to.

As for "the next Vin Scully", there won't be one. Vin is from a much different generation. His schooling was vastly different from what people receive today or what those of us who are in our 40s and 50s receive.

No broadcaster today is going to break in after spending his/her formative years JUST listening to the radio. The two keys to Scully's style are his ability to paint a picture with the spoken word, a distinct radio ability, and his ability to weave in references to literature. The books Vin read in school are not the books we read. When Vin went to school, "The Grapes of Wrath" was only a few years old. Color films were a big deal when Vin was growing up.

There's no way any new announcer can bring that sort of style to a baseball game like Vin Scully does because they don't know how. That doesn't make them bad. It just makes them products of their generation.

As much as we think Vin's style is somehow timeless, it isn't. It's like an old growth redwood. You better enjoy it before a lightning strike burns it down and we are left in a forest full of Matt Vasgersians.

Goodwin left the Dodgers on waivers for KC the first team.

He was reacquired for the great pennant push of 2000 in exchange for Todd Hollandsworth.

He was released by the Dodgers again in 2002 and picked up by the Giants and then got to be part of Dusty Baker's merry band of scrub hitters on the Cubs in 2003 and 2004.

I think most of us are walking around every day with 500 word essays on the virtues of Vin stored in our brains, just waiting for the slightest provocation. That was a nice one.

I'm so glad Downing is gone. I'd rather have dead air on the radio than Downing.

9 You can rejoice in the fact that Gio is in a Pirate uniform and is already causing concern on the Pirate blogs. They think he'll get a roster spot no matter how he pitches in spring training, denying someone more deserving. I post on wherehaveyougoneandyvanslyke that they could look forward to lot's of times when Gio is sent out for a second ining only to get mashed. Someone tried to argue with me that Gio was "a hardened veteran who would give you the tough innings that rookies would not." He also said "surely you agree that intangibles and the little things win games"

14
Thank you. Every now and then I get on a roll. Profundity is not my long suit.

From the AP article;

"Little said 'We saw Nomar do some things over there that we're all proud to see, including himself.'

Hmm. Nomar is standing on first doing himself and Grady is proud to see it?

So the Dodgers are being managed by Tobias Funke?

13 O.K., having looked it up, I have a strong recollection of the Goodwin trade. I argued with my friend (with whom I wrote a Dodger web site at the time - gasp) that his speed at the top of the lineup was just what we needed. My friend said we'd regret giving up Randy Dorame in the deal. Um, we were both wrong.

14 yeah! around here, anyways, I bet it makes Jon proud, too. There's been some good stuff goin' on, from taking care of "Thinking"Blue, to Bob's old growth analogy. Best commenters of any blog. Period.

Guess it doesn't hurt to have a librarian and a lawyer on the 'staff', either.

15-- Sadly most the commentators on that site must not be old enough to remember when the Pirates were REALLY, REALLY good, year after year. That website should be named
"WherehaveyougoneDaveParker".

21
From my perspective, it should be "wherehaveyougoneWillieStargell" or "wherehaveyougoneSteveBlass"

WherehaveyougonewithyourcoolhatKentTekulve

Actually, didn't Steve Blass go to the Pittsburgh broadcast booth?

If Anaheim builds a sewage plant upwind of Angel Stadium would that be considered a 'breach of contract':

http://tinyurl.com/73h94

Tekulve was recently hired as a scout or minor league coach. I forget which

I like wherehaveyougonemannysanguillen

14 - "I think most of us are walking around every day with 500 word essays on the virtues of Vin stored in our brains"

Sadly, as readers of this site or The Best of Dodger Thoughts know, I don't have one. I still don't know how to capture Vin properly.

By the way, Spring Training is a perfect time to buy The Best of Dodger Thoughts.

Years ago, Vin would get almost giddy talking about the Pittsburgh pitching staff that featured guys named Moose,Veale, and Lamb.

20 My favorite thing is when other sites post the occasional "I-don't like-Vin-Scully" article. Invariably somebody here gets wind of it, and we all march over and post our 500 word essays. It takes, literally, 10 minutes, since, as I said, we all have them pre-written in our heads. The original poster suffers web-whiplash, and usually, posts at least a semi-retraction.

Yes, the commenters here are something else.

27 The Best of Dodger Thoughts- Easternmost is quality. Westernmost in flavor.

Downing/Monday was awful. But there was a game or two when Downing sat in for Lyons, with Steiner, and I thought they did pretty well. If anybody was going to get tossed, it should have been Monday. Then Lyons. Then Downing. Vin on t.v., Steiner on the radio and simulcasting when Vinny doesn't make the trip. No good comes from play-by-play guys trying to chat on air.

I'm really surprised at how many people around here like Steiner. I think he's awful. Is it that you like him per se, or just that you like him relative to Monday and Downing?

29 - The commenters here are heroic, like the batallion in the movie "Glory." Unfortunately, last season, we met the same fate.

Jon Weisman (Matthew Broderick): If I fall, who will carry this flag.

Bob Timmermann (Denzel Washington): I will.

Or something like that.

32 I like him. He actually conveys what's going on in the game, you know, saying the score and what not. He's enthusiastic. He's conversant in English.

His most obvious fault, for me, is a severe case of warningtrackitis, you know, where every fly ball is gone. Not the best fault I guess when your audience is Dodger fans.

28 Roger Angell once suggested that that trio of ungulates on the Pirates' pitching staff deserved a doctoral thesis. I think he also suggested there was room for a footnote for those other single-syllable guys, Law, Friend, and Face.

32 Let me put it this way:

Compared to the rest of the league, I like Rick Monday.

I was kinda hoping that they would fire everyone (except for Vin, obviously) and bring back Ross Porter.

Rick Monday is not bad as a color guy, but terrible for play by play. Charlie is OK. I can take him or leave him.

The best up and coming broadcaster is Spiro Dides (sp?). He is the Laker radio guy. He is excellent and I don't care much for basketball.

37 - Yes, from what little I've heard of Spiro, he seems to have been spared the contemporary trait of broadcasting like every play was the most exciting play in history.

35-- Then again, Roger Angell as a card carrying elitist from "The New Yorker", with much disdain compared the design of Dodger Stadium to a supermarket.

Al Downing always seemed very angry to me but maybe having to take those questions after the game does that to you.

I purchased two tickets to the March 16th Thursday WBC game in Anaheim, 4;30pm. It says it will be Pool B Winner vs Pool B runner up so that has to include USA, right? the only other teams in Pool B are Mexico, Canada, S Africa. USA has to finish as winner or runner up.

Bob or anyone else am I reading the schedule/pools correctly? I have doubt because all of the other games the USA is expected to play in are all almost sold out but I was able to get diamond club for that thursday game. I hope it's USA/Mexico.

I listened to the Cubs vs. A's broadcast after the Dodger game, You gotta love their broadcast team, its the first game of spring training and Ron Santo already sounds like its going to be a long season in his voice. When the Cubs won, it was like they just swept the Cards.

Being raised with Vin, Chick, Dick Enberg, etc., everyone else always sounds too provincial for my taste but I guess that is what works for them.

There is nothing better than having Vin on the radio in a tight pitcher's matchup when he can splice his play by play with something that happened 20 years ago and a song from a Broadway play. Sure the kids have no idea what is talking about but I will miss it when it is not there.

41
In addition to his warningtrackitis, Steiner's provincialism (or "homerism", if you will) is among the many things that annoys me about him.

It's been said before, but clearly Chick wanted the Lakers to win (so did Enberg with the Rams and Angels.)

Difference was, when the Lakers lost, Chick made sure you knew why, and who was to blame.
Homers like the Angels' Physioc and Hudler won't ever say their team played poorly.

Chick would be absolutely merciless with this year's Laker team.

12 To pick up on Bob's point, Vin has reminisced about listening to baseball on those old floor-model radio sets when he was a kid, getting real close and listening to the roar of the crowd in the background. It struck him as very evocative, and explains why he doesn't try to talk over the sound of the crowd.

I also get the sense that his generation values a certain musical elqouence when it comes to how you use the English language. Compare Red Smith to Steven A. Smith. Beauty was important then; "attitude" is important now. Personally (and I'm not of Vin's generation), I prefer beauty and consider "attitude" hollow posturing. But that's just me.

I will not miss Al Downing in the broadcast booth. I do, however, think that we could do worse than Steiner. A lot worse.

40
In theory you could be watching Canada vs. Mexico, but if you're watching South Africa play in that game. I will give everyone logged into this board at 4:20 pm PT a bright shiny new $100 bill.

42 - I thought that because Charley so dislikes "Moneyball" (if you ever listen to his XM show, last year when the A's made their run, he was quite perturbed) (and please, I am simplifying the moneyball idea, I know, I know its a book not written by Billy Beane), that he was not openly hostile but I never got the idea that he liked the design of last year's team at all. He in fact said so in his commentary on today's broadcast.

Is that one of the reason's the DT crowd doesn't like him?

Oh and regarding Chick, I think he would have quit after the 2004 season, so he would be spared this misery.

we were very blessed to grow up with Vinny, Chick and Bob miller(Kings hockey) in Souther california. three of the best ever in their respective sports. Only chick had a little homer in him but those were some great Laker teams and players. Plus chick would be quick to say they were playing lousy.

45

right in theory in could be canada vs. mexico but that would mean the US did not advance past Phoenix round 1. Right? I couldn't help that but I didn't want to buy the wrong tickets on the wrong day. It seems like I'll be ok if they don't get bounced out of the tourney.

46
Is that one of the reason's the DT crowd doesn't like him?

It has been my impression that the DT crowd does like him, despite (among other things) the fact that he appears to be much more a Colletti man than a Depo man.

I'm rooting for South Africa, now.

47 Speaking of Bob Miller, he's kind of LA's stealth hall of fame broadcaster. I remember when he, Vin and Chick were on Bill Macdonald's FSN panel show. Vin had a World Series ring, Chick had a World Championship ring... and Bob said, "Well... I've got my wedding band."

By comparison, the Ducks have had complete nonentities doing play-by-play. I swear, there are times when John Alward (sp?) sounds completely uninterested in what's going on.

44 - "I also get the sense that his generation values a certain musical elqouence when it comes to how you use the English language. Compare Red Smith to Steven A. Smith. Beauty was important then; "attitude" is important now. Personally (and I'm not of Vin's generation), I prefer beauty and consider "attitude" hollow posturing. But that's just me."

It's not just you.

44-- Sadly, ESPN has become so influential, that its "style", hype, and assembly line manufacture of clone talking heads with "cool" catchphrases and "attitude", is now the dominant style of sports broadcasting.

We're stuck with Boomer Berman, Stu Scott and their evil progeny for the rest of our lives.

I never cared for Jerry Doggett as a broadcaster either, but looking back I suspect he wasn't that bad. It's just so tough to be in the same booth as Vin.

I loathed Ross when he came on board, but over the years he really grew on me. Technically, I suppose he isn't a great play-by-play guy, but he made listening to the games more enjoyable and that's the bottom line. I wish they'd bring him back. IF he would even come back.

Steiner I can live with, but the entire remainder of the B team is expendable as far as I'm concerned. I can't handle much more of Monday saying, "And speaking of......."

Red Smith to Steven A Smith is a great line, Doug.

I tried to catch some of the game today on Gameday Audio, but unfortunately each time I clicked on the Dodgers-Braves game I got the Pirates game instead. After a few tries and hearing the name Jim Tracy several times I gave up and went back to work.

My impressions of the current B team:

Monday - passable, doesn't irritate me but doesn't make the broadcast better
Steiner - at least has a decent sense of humor, although it seems his baseball knowledge is slightly lacking
Lyons - kind of annoying, at least he brings a little enthusiasm (thankfully not as much as Hulder)

At one point during the game, Steiner was waxing rhapsodic about the veteran infield, listing all of their positive traits, when Monday jumped in and said "and they hate to lose."

Oh BROTheR

I always thought Jerry "check that" Doggett was horrible, but he was a very nice guy the few times I met him. I seem to remember he had very poor eyesight. I also hated Porter when he first came on, (By the way, he was the local NBC sports anchor, Bryant Gumbel was the weekend anchor) but I grew to like him over the years

58
And yet:

"Charlie Steiner: Denied without prejudice"

56

from what I've read Woody, Gameday corrected the problem in the first inning or so.

Not to make this the why I love Vin Scully thread but can anyone else tell by the way Vin says "swung on" or "belted" and know that something good or bad depending on the pitcher has happened.

I'm just wondering if Bob Ueker is anything like his Harry Doyle character when he does Brewers games?

I've heard he's really good.

44, 52, 53...My guess is that all of those ESPN folks were influenced by Howard C. and later Madden, but Howard love him or hate him had credentials and was a great boxing commentator and his halftime highlights clearly influenced Berman and the like. Even Vitale, despite his act, is both entertaining and somewhat imformative and he too influenced everyone after him.

Its a shame that the best sportscenter combo, Olberman and Patrick are only heard on radio these days.

63 - If you have XM or mlb radio, you should take a listen, he's pretty straightforward, I am sure if I listened to every game, you might hear an occasional "just a bit outside" though probably not in that same tone or attitude.

For some reason Uecker was on Leno a month or so ago, and Jay, doing an old Johnny Carson bit gave him set ups and Uecker swung, sometime he hit, sometimes he missed but on one, he really cracked up Dennis Miller.

63--I've heard a little bit of Uecker and he's kind of out of the Midwestern school that roars at a lot of stuff, but he's a good play-by-play man. He does some shtick, but doesn't overdo it.

To go back to a few other posts, I'm not the biggest fan of Steiner, but I've heard worse ... in the same booth, right now. I wasn't much of a Jerry Doggett fan, then Ross Porter made me think Jerry was great, and Don Drysdale made me think Ross was great. In each case, I was unfair. First, they were sitting next to the guy Jerry referred to as the best broadcaster ever to come down the pike. A lot of terrific broadcasters sounded mediocre compared with or next to Vin. Second, I finally understood that they weren't trying to be Vin. Thus, Ross used more stats, for example.

I fear we're stuck with the ESPN/Vasgersian/Hudler approach that it's more important to draw attention to yourself and your wit than it is to talk about the game.

59
I suspect anyone else in the booth with Vin would be considered a failure. I did not like Jerry or Ross. Ross drove me mad calling the umpires 'empires'. And he was certainly deficient in his knowledge of the game and Dodger history.

51
I thought Ralph Lawler was our stealth HOF broadcaster. Ralph and Mike Smith are a hoot these days.

Yeager and JtD share the same birthday. It won't take much for JtD to become my favorite Dodger since I also share Yeager's birthday.

Does anybody think Vin is moneyball (or whatever) inclined? I don't. He's still the best.

The announcers shouldn't have to pass an idealogical purity test. Play by play guys should be smart, funny, have lots of stories and nice voices. Beyond that, they're welcome to whatever private superstitions strike their fancies.

so who will get the first dodger walk in ST?

I didn't like Porter, either, but I strongly suspect that was a function of my irrational hatred of southern accents (even Texan ones). There was also the matter of having to scream at the radio for hours on end, begging the guy to give the score. One time, I tried to sell my soul to the devil in exchange for Ross Porter's death. Didn't work out, which, in retrospect makes me wonder why my soul is of so little value. But not that much.

70.
Even better than walking, we got two, two out hits for RBIs today. I get the feeling that this is going to be a great season. We probably would have won by more if we didn't put our prospects in( but of course, that's the whole point of ST, to see what your kids have got). BTW, Kenny Lofton scored twice, can't wait to see the Furcal-Lofton punch.

71.

? Ross Porter was one of our better broadcasters.

I like the Hud. I detest Fred Rogin and his broadcast tonight just made me want to smack his smirk right off his head.

yea who needs to get on base if we are going to bat 1.000 all year with RISP.

73- Yes. I'm not sure I could have more thoroughly attributed my not liking him to my personal failures. Did you notice? To call something an irational hatred (this is a concept with which you are familiar, whether you know ir or don't) is to accuse one's self. Yes?

I not only missed the old broadcasters, I miss the old radio stations, too. KFWB's coverage of the Dodgers is abysmal. Back in the days before DT, listening to spring training games was a great way to familiarize myself with a lot of the prospects and newer players while I was on the road. Now they've gone from delayed broadcasts to no broadcasts at all. KABC has a weak signal, but they sure as hell covered the games and the team a lot better.

71
I find a southern accent just about as sexy as a French one. Could be why I married a girl from San Antonio who could speak French.

Jerry Dogget- liked
Ross Porter - disliked because I liked Jerry
Rick Monday - no one can be more boring but as a color man he was better then as a play by play man but his voice still puts me to sleep.
Stiener - jury is still out - needs a better color man
Gentleman AL - liked his voice but not his style

75.

There are, believe it or not, other ways to get on base besides a walk. We took advantage of opprotunites given to us by the other team's errors. We didn't do that last year.

KFI was the best. You could be in Minnesota and pick up the Dodgers.

yea you are right. winning a ballgame without scoring any earned runs is dodger tradition/baseball/history/blah.

Anybody watching the WBC tonite? Choi is batting.

thinkingblue, the "Preview comment before saving" check box is your best friend. I can handle your opinions, but your spelling is driving me up a wall :)

DISMISSAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE - When a case is dismissed but the plaintiff is allowed to bring a new suit on the same claim.

when does the korea game start?

Steiner - jury is still out - needs a better color man

This is basically my view on the subject, though I think he would improve markedly with no color man at all.

84
Meaning, essentially, that you're reserving judgment and may grant my petition at a later date?

A lot us remember Jerry Doggett in his last years with the Dodgers, when frankly he wasn't very good ("check that, that wasn't strike two, it was strike three").

But having heard tapes of broadcasts from the Koufax/Wills glory years, Doggett sounds a lot better, a guy who was efficient in telling you what the game situation and score was, without a lot of unnecessary banter.

Most of all, it seems that he was a guy who spent a LOOONG time broadcasting in the backwaters of minor league baseball, finally got his chance as the second announcer with the Dodgers and ran with it.

He knew he was always going to be #2, never broadcast other sports or game shows like Bowling for Dollars, but seemed darn happy to be doing his job.

81.

Yea, the whole idea of going on nothing but power and patience got us 71-91 blah... We were able to take advantage of these chances, with out Furcal, Drew, and Kent in the line up, so we will be fine.

63 - Bob Ueker is at his best when the game is uninteresting or when the Brewers are terrible. I had the "pleasure" of listening to him when the Brewers were really bad, and it was downright hilarious. Not as scripted as Harry Doyle, but still, very funny. made the games bearable.

I could never really understand Ross Porter when he called Dodger games. I always thought he talked really fast and always mumbled through key plays and sequences of events. It wasnt horrible, but I always found myself asking what happened when Ross was calling the game.

But Ross was a very nice guy when I met him. I was at the game where Shawn Green hit 4 Home Runs, and Ross was calling the game in Vin's absence. We sat right under the pressbox, and on the way out, as Ross was collecting his notes, we said hi to him. He was very gracious, stopping and chatting with us for a few minutes. Still, couldnt understand a word he said.

BTW, the Bratwurst in Milwaukee is REALLY REALLY GOOD. And for the record, the Italian Sausage won the sausage race.

Does MLB.com load incorrectly 75% of the time for anyone else? Does it just not play well with Firefox?

Yea, the whole idea of going on nothing but power and patience got us 71-91 blah.

of course, significant injuries to our key players didnt have anything to do with it.

89

Yea, the whole idea of going on nothing but power and patience got us 71-91

INJURIES got us that, and that is a fact that you cannot argue.

89 Clearly and definitely, last year's team failed because it was too patient. Not because of massive injuries, not because of head-butting between the GM and manager, not because of poor starting pitching.

Lack of patience. That was the key.

Clearly.

so are we going to have WBC thoughts tonight?

Bob seems to have set it up.

Your wearing on me boy. If Milton/Drew/Izzy/Gagne were around for the last 45 games I'd give your argument some thought but since they weren't, the posting of our record last year is pointless.
You might take a look at the most patient team in the last 10 years and discover the Yankee's have been a pretty good team. Power and Patience have been a tried and true trait for a winning team since Babe Ruth 1st rocked the baseball world. There are other ways to win as proven by the Angels and the old Cardinals but don't denigrate the oldest tradition of how to score runs in baseball.

WBC feed just started.

93, 94.

Yes, injuries did play a role. However, that was not the only thing. The team was not set up properly. Face it, it was a pitching staff that relied on defense, only, it did not have defense. Also, there was no infield depth.

That, and the dodgers were relying on an injured Werth, the always risky Drew, and the walking time bomb, Bradley.

To complicate matters, the dodgers were going into the season with Jason Phillips as thier number 1 catcher.
And the bottom of the order was:

Jose Valinetin
Hee-Seop Choi
Jason Phillips.

Three potential offensive black holes.

And how could no one have seen the Bradley-Kent thing coming? The clubhouse was split.

Wow, the stadium is completely empty.

97.

The yankees also won by a dominant pitching staff. Last year, we had a group of sinker, slider pitchers. They rely on infield defense. We didn't have infield defense.

Big Choi hitting fifth for Korea.

So, what was the result of Choi's first plate appearance?

Game hasn't started yet.

102.

Of course, that's Korea's line up. Clearly, he is the best hitter in that line up. Good luck to him. Hopefully, he can increase his marketability.

My WBC thoughts:

I kind of dont want China or China-Taipai to get to the semis and finals. Im going to those games, and seeing as I keep score, it will be near impossible if China/Taipai make it. There are only about 15 last names between the 60 players on the two rosters combined.

Really though, I think one of the big teams is gonna be upset by an unknown team. for some reason, I see an Italy or a Canada or a Puerto Rico upsetting a USA, Dominican, or Venezualan team.

Im predcting a Japan/Dominican/Canada/Venzuala Final 4 with Japan facing La Republica Dominicana in the finals.

There are some good young broadcasters. Dave Fleming in San Francisco is excellent as is Ken Korach in Oakland.

I don't expect any broadcaster to match Vin anymore than I expect some kid pitcher to match Sandy Koufax. Vin learned his craft on the radio under the wing of Red Barber. I had hoped that years ago the Dodgers would bring along a good young broadcaster and team him with Vin so that the continuity of excellence in the Dodger broadcast booth could be maintained. It did not happen nor will it happen under McCourt.

Stan from Tacoma

104
Oh. 82 confused me then.

I don't think the US is gonna lose to Canada.

101

The yankees also won by a dominant pitching staff

I agree with that.

And what has ned done with the pitching, brought in bomko and carter, and wants to waiste 2 relief spots on loogys wunsch and hamulak.

Seo is a mystery to me, i won't comment on him.

Baez is good but not great, altho i think we gave up too much for him.

All of the above blocks broxton osoria kuo.

Vinnie is god. It will be one of the saddest days of my life when he retires. I try not to think about it. He means more to me than any other Dodger, past or present

Not to be too negative, but I'm also glad Al Downing is gone. I agree that he sounds angry all the time. Does anyone remember when he used to do DodgerTalk on KABC? Every caller seemed to tick him off - unless one had played major league ball, one knew nothing and had no right to discuss baseball as far as Al was concerned. Not the ideal attitude for a fan call-in show.

Contrary to the prevailing opinion on DT, I like Steve Lyons as a color guy. Makes me laugh out loud at least once or twice a game. It's kinda fun having a smartass in the booth.

And, yes, bring back Ross. Rick puts me to sleep.

107 - Ray Fosse is horrible as color man for the A's.

choi bats 5th, seo is starting pitcher.

i expect nothingless of a no hitter from seo and 3 homerun from choi tonight.

chin lung hu bats 7th and starting SS for taiwan.

Actually, I think Osoria and Kuo have a very good chance at the team, and will almost certainly make the team at some point this year.
Carter, I think can be an asset, he looked good today, and in a Gio role, in dodger stadium, he can thrive.
It is not a sure thing with our lefites.

Tomko, I think will have a decent year, around a 4.10 ERA. This is because he has always pitched well at dodger stadium, and the large outfield will help.

And while our starters are not dominant, the bullpen is. We almost have too many good arms there.

how do u convert km to mph again?

And the WBC starts off with an error.

korea just sac bunted with the #2 hitter...

Divide by about 1.6.

112, I don't think a broadcast needs a color man.

Stan from Tacoma

so is there suppose to be no commentary?

The best defense in the world couldnt prevent the home runs,line drives, and walks last years pitching staff gave up.

THe pitching stunk because well...the pitching stunk.

Dont try to make it into something it isnt. The staff gave up way too many home runs and walks. Something they should be able to control.

120. I've always hoped that in the HD era of TV, that baseball games would come equipped with the "no commentating" function, thereby allowing you to sit in your home and listen to the sounds of the game.

122.

Yet you question if this staff is improved, even though we lost over THIRTY BOMBS by letting Weaver go.

This is because he has always pitched well at dodger stadium, and the large outfield will help

DS doesnt have a large outfield.
Its because of this that doubles, and triples are suppressed.
Try again.

now it wont play on my computer.

If you watch the WBC on MLB.TV, there are no announcers at all!

While thats a good condept, that would be tremendously boring. Unless one has dolby digital surround sound, some stadium seats, and you get one of your friends to toss you a bag of peanuts behind their back.

actually DS does have a pretty large outfield. doubles and tripples are suppressed because the outfield doesnt have huge valleys/gaps or any funky jettis and stuff.

Well oldbear, this team led (or was close to the top) of the NL in doubles.

my wbc on mlb.tv isnt working!!

124
Yet you question if this staff is improved, even though we lost over THIRTY BOMBS by letting Weaver go.

But he was replaced by ThirtyBomko.

Choi doubles off the wall on the first pitch.

As for the new swing, it looks exactly the same.

first pitch swinging, choi doubles to deep center!

i didnt know he was suppose to have a new swing.

Oldbear is picking out the things about thinkgingblue's post that i was going to pick out, but i'm too lazy right now.

Bear's doing the job i didn't feel like doing because of lazyness. lol

Good job bear.

Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi!

chin lung hu! chin lung hu! chin lung hu!

nice Dp by the dodgers future SS HU!

Things are getting better though. Post 124 was self-aware and witty.

124. Tomko will fill the role of home run dispenser that was formerly Weavers'.

Tomko's career HR/9 (1.22) is higher than Weaver's (1.02).

Its interesting you say Tomko will benefit from the "big DS outfield". Not true of course but anyways. Yet, you also said yesterday that Mueller will hit more home runs bc of the size of DS. That his line drives he hit at Fenway last year, will turn into home runs this year...

How can Tomko and Mueller both benefit from the DS park effects you've described? Tomko is gonna give up less HR's...And Mueller is gonna hit more HR's....?

Confounding logic.

Is it safe to assume that the Chinese Taipei pitcher's arm angles are standard?

142 He does have a weird hesitation in his delivery.

132.

Weaver gave up many more home runs last year. That, and we actually got a 5th starter, not Scott Erickson.

Ok, Ive been on TB's side more or less, and even I think these last few "predictions" made by him make absolutely no sense.

Quit while you're ahead TB. Or at least quit before you fall even farther behind.

BTW, is there astroturf in the Tokyo Dome or is it field turf-like stuff?

bear, I said those line drives from Nomar would be home runs at dodger stadium

Also, what about the fact that the dodgers led the leauge in doubles?

145.

What doesn't make sense? Me thinking the staff will be better because of a 5th starter?

But it's true that Tomko is no DJ Houlton. Or anything else.

All that means is that Glen Hoffman wouldnt let Jason Phillips go for 3rd on a line drive to the gap.

147 But Tomko is horrid. Tomko isnt much that much better than Scott Erickson. Add to that that Tomko is one year older, and is moving from a great pitchers park, to a park conducive to doubles and homeruns.

Just because the Dodgers have a set rotation at this point in 2006, doesnt mean its a better rotation than the garbage from 2005.

146 The Dodgers were 18th in doubles last year. 11th in the NL.

that was cool.

jae seo pitched to chin lung hu and chin lung hu hit it to hee seop choi and hee seop choi tagged the 1b bag to get chin ling hu out.

way to keep it in the dodger family.

152 I thought Choi was DH.

Also, what about the fact that the dodgers led the leauge in doubles?

lol, now hes just making stuff up.

I thought Choi was DH.

well, if hee was playing 1b, then it would have happened. :(

It's "league." (period within the quotation marks, of course)

hu has pre injury izzy like range.

Weaver gave up many more home runs last year.

Clearly. Lets just forget past performance and only judge players on their one previous season.

Kenny Lofton hit .335 last year. He obviously will do that again this year.

Adrian Beltre hit 48HR's in 2004. He'll obviously do that again in 2005.

Past trends...park effects...experience curves...Whom needs them?

Seung Yeop Lee is playing 1st, he of the Asian homerun record (he hit 56 for a Korean team a few years ago). He was the Chiba Lotte Marine's 1B last season, but signed with Yomiuri for the upcoming season

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151.

Thank you. I heard wrong, must have been around midseason. I forgot over the last 8+ months, if you'll forgive that.

158.

Who, not whom.

Anyway, it seems like you are rooting for things to go wrong, why?

so seo wears glasses when he pitches.

162.

edit, you seem to be really down, why?

150.

No, Tomko is way better than Scott. He had a bad year last year, and was still over 2 full runs better.

bear, I said those line drives from Nomar would be home runs at dodger stadium

Strange...Because those mysterious line drives did not turn into home runs at Wrigley Field.

Nomar hit 13 BOMBS in 395 AB's playing for the Cubs over his 2 yrs there.

You'll agree Wrigley is a tad easier to hit home runs in than DS? Yes?

166.
If the wind is right.

Also, Nomar was playing hurt a lot.

Nomar did not play hurt at all. He played. He got hurt (famously). He didn't play. He got better. He played.

In the la times article I read, Nomar was hampered by a hammy the second half of the 04 season, yet still hit .297, but with less power.

Shouldnt our friend not like Nomar?

After all, Nomar isnt clutch.
He only hit .250 with RISP last season. (15-60) 2HRs.

I thought clutch hitting, speed, defense, and pitching won baseball games.

What happened to the Cubs last year thinkingblue? Didnt they have all of those things?

Choi doesn't do "the Oakland thing" and pops up a 3-0 pitch.

Choi swung 0-3. Maybe Grady will like him

noo!! little has already gotten to choi.

3-0 and swinging :(

173 I guess that would be 3-0. Guess I'm rusty.

How about wherehaveyougoneDockEllis? in memory of the game he pitched on an acid trip?

*After all, Nomar isnt clutch.
He only hit .250 with RISP last season. (15-60) 2HRs.

I thought clutch hitting, speed, defense, and pitching won baseball games.

What happened to the Cubs last year thinkingblue? Didnt they have all of those things?*

Small sample size. In a healthy season, Nomar has never had under 96 RBIs. Also, the cubs did not have speed, or clutch hitting.

How can a team that has Dusty Baker managing, Neife Perez at SS, Corey Patterson in CF, Jeromy Burnitz in RF, and Zambrano, Maddux, Wood, Prior not win?

IF thats not definition of old school baseball, what is?

Not just a game, but a no-hitter on acid.

Small sample size

Wait. I thought you werent a stats guy?

177 They have Hairston, Corey Patterson, and Neifi (!) how much more speed do you want?

177 Choi had more 19 ABs that Nomar with RISP. That is significant to you? Wouldn't Choi also have a small sample size?

choi is dead to me. he popped up on a 3-0 pitch.

the WBC games will be rebroadcast on espn2 tonight. I believe at 11pm PST. tomorrow's games start early friday morning on espn2. All games from Pool A, Asian

Choi couldn't do it, but Korea took the lead thanks to a Sung Heon Hong double. En-Yu Lin had exactly 65 pitches

185- Was it a Hongrun?

hopefully kuo will get in this game.

Yes, that "sample size" line is quite a winding one for this fellow.

Small sample size.

So much for self-awareness. The wit must have been an accident too.

177- That's right! Small sample size; you got that one. There's hope for you, yet.

So Seo's out of the game. Guess they were worried Hu would take more than 4 pitches. BH Kim in

I'm not watching, but Hu looks like he's doing a good job making BH Kim work. 9 pitches, and still at the plate

TB, are you not tempted at all to just kick back and learn from this group? I've been a baseball junkie for about 30 years now, and I've learned more in six months of reading this site than I could possibly have imagined.

Try a little humility and open-mindedness. You might actually pick up a thing or two.

181.

They have Hairston, Corey Patterson, and Neifi (!) how much more speed do you want?<<

Neifi: 8 SB, 4 caught

Hariston: 8SB 9caught

Patterson: 15 SB, 5caught

Maybe the cubs had speed, but they sure as bleep didn't use it well.

192 - yes, and Kim was ahead 0-2 to start the AB. Hu finally popped out.

193.

Y'all are certainly keeping me on my toes. I will of course try and learn some things. But I will never accept the thought that Depo did a good job, or that speed is worthless.

Small sample size is the right answer. You can't stop there, but it is, on it's face, right. Why is it a bad idea to infer anything from small samples? What does that teach us about BARISP?

It's progress, unless it really is just a cherry pick (Nomar's sample is small, but the ones that back my point are fine). It wasn't, right? You're catching on, not just playing at being a stat dilettante, right?

178.

Of course, some of those players were hurt. Also, they didn't have a very good bullpen.

Small sample size.

198 So if their players got hurt, I infer from your earlier post that their GM must have done a bad job. ;)

197.

I know it is not always a great stat, but it is not worthless for players like Mueller and Kent. After all, Kent had an adequate sample size, and led the leauge in BARISP. And Mueller had 139 ABs, and 47 hits with BARISP.

200.
Yes, he relied on a glass pitching staff of Prior and Wood.

re 196

1. speed isnt worthless, but it isnt the as important as you are making it out to be.

2. 18 months isnt enough time to judge whether depo did a good job or not. he had 1 good year, one bad year. he also made it clear numerous times that he was trying to be competitive until our prospects are ready.

202 So if you had Wood and Prior, you'd what? Bench them? Trade them?

Maybe hire a manager who won't abuse them? Or do you not believe in pitch counts either?

201- What is an adequate sample? How can you tell?

Of course, some of those players were hurt

The irony in this is priceless.

Somebody died today, but I forget who -- somebody that was on some kid's show.

There's really only so far down the rabbit hole we can go, and then it's time to just wait it out. Bob's cat, my list, what else was on the approved list in these cases? I forget.

196

But I will never accept the thought that Depo did a good job

Consider what he had to work with (all those bad contracts from previous regimes), he didn't have much money to work with.
Consider the manager (tracy) going against depodetas philosophy (altho i wonder if depodesta had the power to fire tracy and didn't do it, or if he didn't have the power because mccourt was in charge of tracy).

or that speed is worthless

I won't speak for anyone else, but i don't think speed is worthless, i object to speed when you take away either obp or slg for speed (lofton has no slg, choi/saenz have obp and slg), it would be nice to fill our team with a bunch of bobby abreus(obp slg speed) but those guys cost a ton of money, when you can't get a bunch of total package players such as bobby abreu, my opinion is you go after obp and slg guys that have no speed (chois of the world), guys that are cheaper price, and don't go after speed guys with either no obp or slg (loftons) or both (izturis).

203.

Yes, he may have tried, but he failed when he had to build the team. After all, the 04 team was mostly built by Evans.

Small sample size.

206.

As is the talent difference from our hurt players, and the cubs.

How's the Korea/Taiwan tilt going? Haven't heard an update on that in a while.

209.

Only the Mets in the NL spent more money on FA's than the dodgers.

Also, it is good to have the Lofton's of the world, they can create ways to score runs (Lofton scored twice today).

Choi due up this inning. Will he make up for Gradying in his last AB?

After going 1 for about 400, we know one analysis where small sample size is not a problem.

205 Addendum (ESPN splits are giving me trouble)

If Kent's BARISP was a sufficiently large sample to have value, why does it look like this:

2005 .366
2004 .288
2003 .358
2002 .289

when his general BA looks like this:

2005 .289
2004 .289
2003 .297
2002 .313

Does his clutchiness vary so much, year to year? Or, could it be, that the RISP sample is always too small (less than a quarter of his PA, last year)-- that it is sound and fury, Signifying nothing?

I just have to say, i was at the ST game today, and it felt great to be watching live BB again. Those two plays by nomar at first were impressive, and he got plenty of enthusiasm from the dugout afterward. Good to see his peers get excited for him.
Penny's control looked off; he'll shake off the rust.
I watched Billingsly throwing to Russell Martin on a practice field before the game, he looks awesome.
During the game MKemp had a super throw from right to home to get the runner. Wunch pitched a real good 9th for the save. Honestly, the offense wasnt there today. The first couple innings were exciting, but entirely due to the Braves poor fielding. LA put a much better team on the field than Atlanta and barely squieked a win out.

214 Mike Edwards scored 2 runs today as well. Does he find ways to score runs like Lofton?

If the 2004 team was mostly Evans', then you must also believe that the 2006 team is mostly DePo's.

The most important players on this 06 team were brought in by DePo. Kent, Penny, Lowe, Drew, Navarro, Perez (resigned as FA), Jose Cruz.

Which main guys from the 2004 team did Dan Evans acquire and give roster spots too? Izturis, Weaver, and Odalis Perez.

Surely you cannot say that Izturis, Weaver, and Odalis Perez....are more valuable than Jeff Kent, Drew, Lowe, Navarro...?

Well, it wouldnt surprise me if you said they were.

213- The Griddle is rocking tonight. Home to all your WBC needs.

214

Only the Mets in the NL spent more money on FA's than the dodgers.

Do you have proof of that like a link?

221- Oops; you're there already.

As is the talent difference from our hurt players, and the cubs

LOL....

Steve, you're right that hole is getting deeper and deeper.

Are you suggesting that the Cubs injured players were more valuable than Gagne, Bradley, Drew, Werth, Perez, and Valentin?

I watch with extreme amusement while you hurl your diatribes at TB, with the speed of a Clemens fastball in flight.

I also note that Jon and TB have never been here at the same time.

Maybe they are one and the same and Jon is just testing you, to see which one of you will be the first to lose your temper, curse and be banned forever.

You find your entertainment in refuting TB's views. I find my entertainment in the sport of it all.

Choi flies out on the 3-1 pitch

How was Boston Legal on Tuesday? I have it on Tivo but I haven't watched it yet.

220.

Well, Tomko, Seo, Carter, Baez, Mueller, Nomar, and Furcal were brought in by Ned. So it's not like this is as Depo, and the 04 team was Evans.

Also, if you are going to talk about the farm-also Evans.

224.

Yes, I am suggesting that A-Ram, Nomar, Wood, Prior, among others are more valuable than ours.

Here is my prediction for 2006:

This is the season a gameday thread breaks the hallowed 1000 mark.

(I think we got to 700 last season so it should be do-able)

222.
Thats what one of the mail bags said.

227

Tuesday's episode was great as they all are, but I think last week's was the best of the season so far.

LAT

You bet.

Kobe has 93 points at halftime. I hate him. He is a bad person. What a jerk.

UCLA is overrated. They haven't beaten anybody but Drexel.

The Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't have enough linemen in it.

230 -- But you would have to subtract 200 of them for metaphysical reasons

234

Are you hurling diatribes?

The fact that redistricting lawyers get chicks was one that I was not aware of before I watched Boston Legal.

Just trying to close the little door that talks before the Queen catches up to us.

231

I think we are talking about 2 different things, i said in my post that depodesta had money constraits(bad contracts on the books).

Are you saying the mets are the only NL team that spent more than the dodgers THIS OFF SEASON?
If so, that has nothing to do with what i was saying.
Also our payroll this season is the same as the payroll was in both 2005 and 2004 give or take 1 or 2 million, the difference is that depodesta didn't have as much money to play with as ned did.

218 Gilgamesh, I'm very jealous.

240 Agreed. I got all giddy just hearing it on the radio.

TB- no go on the RISP? I thought we might be getting somewhere. Don't leave me hanging, dude.

Also, it is good to have the Lofton's of the world, they can create ways to score runs

Not good at the expense of better obp and slg.

As i said i'd like the dodgers to fill the team with bobby abreu's(obp slg speed) total package players, but it can't because of the cost, so you get obp slg guys without speed that don't cost much, but you certainly don't get speed guys with no slg.

229 Nomar, Wood, Prior, Ramirez, Walker, Hairston, Fox, Remlinger, and Williamson are better than Drew, Bradley, Werth, Ledee, Izturis, Valentin, APerez, Bako, Gagne, Penny, OPerez, and Wunsch? (and Dreifort)

Chicago lost 3 starting position players and 2 SPs, plus a few bench/bullpen players. The Dodgers lost 5 starting position players, their closer, and 2 SPs, plus numerous bench/bullpen guys

244 We're talking '05, right? If so, Penny was relatively healthy.

239.

No really, the dodgers spent a lot of money in the 04 offseason, just not wisely.

RIP Harry Browne.

http://tinyurl.com/jse7c

243.

So you would have prefered Reggie Sanders?

245 Penny made 29 starts, Prior made 27, so they are pretty much equal in time missed to the DL...

248

So you would have prefered Reggie Sanders?

If the choice was sanders or lofton and it was 1 year for each, then yes.

248 Reggie probably would have been preferable, although he does have health issues. I suppose Lofton's chances of staying healthy aren't necessarily a lot better though

242.

Ok, fine, RISP is not always a consistant stat. But I would like clutch players.

250.

Ned may have thought so too. However, Reggie did not want a 1 year deal if you remember.

252
Ok, fine, RISP is not always a consistant stat. But I would like clutch players.

How do you define and measure "clutch"?

253 I think that's a significant reason why other than MB and oldbear, not many here really reject to Lofton being the starting CF (although some might have a good case to move him to LF, but that's an argument for another night). Although that's only as long as Repko stays out of the lineup

253

Ned may have thought so too. However, Reggie did not want a 1 year deal if you remember.

Ned may have.

And because sanders wanted more than 1 year i lost interest in him.

But it still doesn't change the fact that ned has an asset in choi/saenz for 1b, and that he should put nomar in lf and sit lofton, but we've been there done that with this subject and i don't feel like arguing about that.

254, 252 -
"Clutchiness" = Number of Ja(y)sons * Jim Tracy

257 - Oh wait, nevermind... that is the equation for "Scrapiness".

254.

Sometimes, baseball cannot be measured by stats. When you are watching a baseball game, you know who the clutch players are. You know who the people that get the runner home when he is on third with less than two outs are. You know who will move the runner along.

Had Lofton not put up that outlier of a season last year, who would be even remotely excited to have him using up 400 at bats for our team this year?

Oh no, not a what if scenario.

259 - I thought Who's on 1st.

UCLA up by 1 over cal with 1.20 to go

I'm noticing an influx of posts of a... different... train of thought (using the term loosely).

Which Dodger leads the team in botched hit and run plays? Text your answer to 28848.

Cal hits a 3otr to tie

park's cb looks really good right now.

thinkingblue, I believe your whole line of logic is a "what if" scenario... ideas like clutchness are bound by "what if".

Going to OT. Cal hits huge 3 with 20 secs and UCLA bricked the last shot.

259- No. You don't. If you could, you'd be able to show that you had. But you can't. Because you don't.

Back to RISP; there's a reason RISP numbers aren't consistant. It's the reason small sample sizes aren't useful. Chance. The whole point of looking for new baseball metrics is to eliminate, as much as possible, chance. RISP is chance-happy. RBIs are chance-happy.

I'm bored with this now, so feel free to ignore me.

dodger fans that love defense are really going to like hu.

Is the SABR-friendly "take" on "RISP" that

1. Any differences between "performance w/RISP" and "performance w/o RISP" are inevitably random, and cannot possibly be systematic.

or

2. Even if the differences are systematic, the fact that players typically (if not always) have many more PAs w/o RISP than w/RISP suggests that their w/o RISP stats are more important than their w/RISP stats?

270
Who?

Lots of snarky comments here tonight.

Stan from Tacoma

UCLA was clutch, tonight.

When you are watching a baseball game, you know who the clutch players are.

This is a belt high, 75MPH straight fastball. But I've already taken enough batting practice for one evening.

275
Plus, Scotty's arm is getting tired...

This is a belt high, 75MPH straight fastball. But I've already taken enough batting practice for one evening.<<

If this means no more long fantasy statistical arguments, ok.

long fantasy statistical arguments

Is this irony or an oxymoron? Gallery?

When you are watching a baseball game, you know who the clutch players are.

Prove it.

Statistics translate into facts, observations translate into opinions. Example:

Observation: Mark Lemke is a huge playoff performer.

Statistic: Lemke has a career .240 average in the post season.

Which of these people has the stronger argument?

12
I finally signed up on DT just to applaud that post. Vin is the breathing encyclopedia of the Dodgers and probably of the national league since Carey has passed away. You just can't beat a commentator that can bring up how so and so's delivery or swing reminds him of some guy from 'way' back when the team was in Brooklyn. My dad had no interest in baseball and therefore had no stories or knowledge beyond the basic rules on how to play. I got all I needed from Vin.

280 - little do you know that Lemke is 0/76 in innings 1 through 6 but 24/24 thereafter.

I think you have a little observing to do.

Lemke would fit in perfect in the NBA.

282 little do you know that Lemke is 0/76 in innings 1 through 6 but 24/24 thereafter.

You can look that up in the spits.

264. Jim Tracy......whats the prize?

227 - Alls you need to know Steve is there is now one more ex-Mrs. Denny Crane!

Man, reading all of these posts this week makes me appreciate the daily routine of the regular season so much more.

Who else would be up for making opening day and trade deadline day official DT holidays this season? Everybody ditches work, classes, whatever and we shoot for the big 1000 again?

Topics that should have an expiration date:
1. Dodger Trades (Pedro, Piazza, LoDuca).
2. Shaq Trade
3. DePo (support and dissent)

271- Actually, Bill James wrote a great piece called Underestimating the Fog, in which he demonstrated that there could be such a thing as Clutch. It also shows that no current metric would show it, if there were. There is no one SABR position, but a popular one is that where there isn't any evidence of something, it shouldn't be presumed to exist. Where chance (the fog) seems to explain something, it probably does. (pdf warning)

http://www.sabr.org/cmsfiles/underestimating.pdf

271 - I don't know that this is the endorsed view, but the Steve View is that hitters are hitters regardless of the situation. To say that one is a "clutch hitter" is merely to say that one is a good hitter -- the "clutch" part is a conceit designed to to support statements like "I know a clutch player when I see one." Bill Mueller is, ironically enough, a perfect example. His career situational BA (which I know is an illegitimate way of looking at things, but we'll keep it simple):

.293 -- Bases empty
.291 -- Runners on
.283 -- RISP
.278 -- RISP/2outs
.292 -- Bases Loaded

Bill Mueller is a .285 plus or minus hitter. And that's fine. That's why despite my concern that he will be overplayed in '07 given our third base surplus, his signing was fine.

Nomar is another good example:

.315 -- Bases Empty
.325 -- Runners on
.322 -- RISP
.305 -- RISP/2Outs
.346 -- Bases Loaded

Kent:

.282 -- Bases Empty
.297 -- Runners on
.302 -- RISP
.258 -- RISP/2Outs
.369 -- Bases Loaded

Kent is a little different, but if you take two "clutchy"-type situations together, they basically even out.

For fun I just picked out a random player, Todd Helton:

Bases Empty -- .329
Runners on -- .346
RISP -- .352
RISP/2Outs -- .314
Bases Loaded -- .346

Those are merely an unrepresentative sample; I would be interested in the larger picture, but in general, good hitters are just good hitters. When people start stacking on redundant terms, it's more about agendas than anything else.

Didn't SI prove that Derek Jeter is clutch a few years ago?

Jon, you work for them now right? Care to explain?

WBC replay on ESPN 2 is starting. I've got a good feeling about Hee Seop Choi's first AB.

I thought Al Downing was in way over his head, though he seemed to be a nice guy.

But I think Steiner is a HUGE improvement over Porter. I'll explain why.

I used to yell at my radio and TV whenever Ross would start with his twin unmissed specialties.

(note: the teams I mention and the numbers I have here were not the ones Ross used two years ago but the classifications WERE ones he breathlessly related.)

1) the inconsequental factoid that is statistically meaningless (e.g. "The Mets have the best record in the National League in Saturday night road games*; and

2) the vaguely consequntial stat presented without context (e.g. *Milwaukee had twelve passed balls last season to lead their division; the Cubs were next with ten. By the way, the Dodgers had eleven."

Without telling the listener what the league average is, a stat like that is valueless even on its own limited terms. (Limited because a passed ball may be a function of several different things. For instance it could mean either lousy defensive catching or a pitching staff with temendous but unpredictable breaking stuff.)

I know it is a matter of personal taste, but I prefer my games related to me by someone who who doesn't confuse footnote citations with actual game action.
And is not dull. Or a bore.

I found Porter a pompous bore. I find Steve Lyons a snide egomaniac. And to me Al Downing had a drab hardly-there on-air personality.

Steiner to me is pleasant company to spend broadcast time with.

Vinnie is, of course, an absolute joy to spend the time of a game with....

289-

great post. Another thing to take into account is that pitchers are going to pitch differently depending on the situation.

For example, a guy is going to see more pitches to hit with the bases loaded because no one wants to walk in a run. I wonder if that is at all factored into any of these scenarios.

293- It's not just that the situations are different, since the sample size is small, the pitchers faced are completely different. That factor evens out, to some extent, over a full season, but when you start carving out what amount to random samples you lose the evening out effect.

290 I think every clutch study I've seen (one of the better ones is on retrosheet) has pegged Jeter as horribly unclutch.

I forgot who said it, but this pretty much sums up my feeling on clutch hitting.

1) We can't prove that it exists.
2) If it does exist, Jose Valentin is the most clutch player in baseball.

Your post made me think of David Ortiz:

.275 -- Bases Empty
.290 -- Runners on
.292 -- RISP
.274 -- RISP/2Outs
.368 -- Bases Loaded

Of course, that last number is in 76 at-bats, which will or won't be a large enough sample size, apparently based on whether we like or don't like David Ortiz enough to justify it. I guess you would just start at seeing how much better or worse the entire league hit with the bases loaded than average, and see if you could establish any consistent kind of adjustment based on that. Again, this is an amateurish effort on my part, but it seems like a reasonable way to go.

Jose Valentin:

.226 -- Bases Empty
.261 -- Runners On
.270 -- RISP
.254 -- RISP/2Outs
.308 -- Bases Loaded

The clutchiest clutchman that ever clutched a clutch. Thank heaven DePo snapped him up last year.

Jose Valentin is the one guy who had me screaming at the tv, "Why don't you play Repko, you moron!"

My opin^H^H^H belief on clutch hitting is that, while we can't prove that it exists, we might be able to prove that some players choke. Thusly, the players may be divided into two sets: Chokers, and Non-Chokers. Members of the former attempt to reach down for some mythical "clutchiness" reserve, only to forget the what got them to the Majors. They swing from the heels and leave ducks on the pond. Members of the latter group, who have confidence in their abilities, will simply do what they always do. They'll hit the ball where it's pitched and stroke a two RBI single to right center.

For us on the outside, the non-choker looks clutch, because he came through whereas the other did not. The "Clutchmaster" might even be able to succeed in this game situation at a better rate than he succeeds in non-clutch sitations. If you asked this player what he was thinking when he collected the game winning hit, he'd probably say, "I didn't overthink it, I got a good pitch to hit...." In the discussion of (RISP) clutchiness, I feel that the adjustments a pitcher makes to a clutch situation are sometimes lost.

299 This is true, I am a firm believer in the choke, but I don't have any actual evidence to back this up.

299 -- But what "percentage" (to use an imprecise word) do we assign to non-clutchiness(TM -- take that Colbert) and what "percentage" do we assign to the simple failure that usually occurs in baseball anyway. And of the range of failure, what do we "assign" to chokiness, and what do we "assign" to the normal bell curve of results?

Chokiness is when a player just doesn't want to be there. You can tell. . . 8^)

Salma Hayek is on Leno.

301-- Perhaps we've always been looking at it from the wrong side of the spectrum? Success and failure fall on the same spectrum in the game... At its simplest, it comes down to "Make Out or Get On." Baseball is a game of failure, and clutchiness is celebrated because clutch players (seemingly) buck the odds. What I'm suggesting is that this search for clutchiness might be more fruitful if we look for the set of players who demonstrate a history of failing at a rate greater than of their normal rate of failure, and then call the complement of that set the Clutchmasters. That would take, what, three or four years (?) of PA's to a meaningful data set?

(Terms and Conditions apply. Your sample size milage may vary. Offer not valid in ANA, or on the South Side of Chicago.)

304...to form a meaningful data set?

I even proofed that one, I swear.

Part of the problem is that there's no agreed upon Clutch Situation. RISP doesn't weed out the stat padders, or the early season numbers, which, as we all know, don't really count. Close and Late numbers are fine, if you don't mind including the teams that are already out of contention, for whom no situation is really all that clutchy. But, if you do all that, then you have fifteen suitable PAs.

If there were a way to rank each PA on, like, a seven point clutch scale, and then weight it that way, you'd still almost certainly have nothing, but at least it would be more definitely nothing.

Jay Payton. Placido Polanco (sort of).

But here's the problem still. I'm going through a bunch of players, kind of randomly, and just to hit the ones that I saw, V. Guerrero, F. Thomas, K. Lofton, D. Erstad are all basically the same in the five categories we've been discussing. And I've found a few players -- Jay Payton, Placido Polanco who are sorta kinda worse as you go down the list. But that's a normal distributive curve. You have a lot of people bunched up in the middle, and then you have fewer as you slide down both sides of the bell, until your reach the extremes.

Look at it another way. What if every at bat in the major leagues took place with the bases loaded? Not only would Grabowski still not get to 30 RBIs in a season, you would still get a bell curve variation in batting averages -- some would be better and some would be worse. It's natural bell curve variation, regardless of how far out you take the sample size.

Don't take my criticism the wrong way. I think taking the debate out of the fever swamps of "clutchiness" is on the right track. But I'm concerned that your method repeats the flaw of assigning deeper meaning to random variation.

A batter leading off the inning of a tie game in the bottom of the 9th is a much more important situation than a RISP Situation in a blowout. Too many different factors come into play that make it difficult to measure "clutchiness"

I think excessive clutch hitting is a symptom of ADHD.

But here's a physics problem. What if a clutch hitter comes to bat in a clutch situation against a clutch pitcher? Isn't that kind of like the immovable object and the irresistable force?