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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Drysdale and Kennedy
2006-06-05 09:32
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

My dad's friend Ed Medvene got two seats behind home plate for the Dodger game against the Pirates on June 4, 1968. Don Drysdale took the mound that night, and nine innings later, he had broken the National League record for consecutive shutout innings held by Carl Hubbell and the major league record for consecutive shutouts held by Doc White.

Drysdale pitched a three-hitter, walking none, hitting one batter, of course (Manny Mota) and striking out eight. Maury Wills grounded out with a runner on third and two out in the sixth inning to end the biggest scoring threat. Dodger first baseman Wes Parker made 17 putouts, and only one out was recorded by a Dodger outfielder.

It was a Tuesday night, the night of the California presidential primary. The game ended in two hours and 20 minutes, and so my father and his friend made the short drive to the Ambassador Hotel, where Robert F. Kennedy was being crowned the winner of the Democratic primary, to take in the scene there. My dad recalls seeing Kennedy at the hotel, which was torn down this year, though he didn't stay long enough to hear him speak.

"Then we left, and between the time we left and the time we got home, (your mother) was just sitting in front of the TV set, just stunned," he said.

* * *

Maury Brown of Baseball Prospectus makes the case today for inducting former Dodger owner Walter O'Malley into the Hall of Fame, along with former baseball players union chief Marvin Miller.

I'd like to ask how these two individuals could be absent from Cooperstown in the first place. Both men altered MLB's landscape forever. Both changed the conventional thinking in MLB—both in terms of labor, and in terms of business. Both men directed their respective constituencies, either directly or indirectly. Both men are iconic. ...

If anything, it's that relocation that sets O'Malley apart from others as a visionary. No, it's certainly not the only reason he should be inducted into the Hall (we'll get to the rest later), but O'Malley's leap from one coast to the other so dramatically altered MLB's course that it's hard to imagine how different it was before the Dodgers and Giants relocated. Not just the act of the move was remarkable. With the relocation came changes that would alter how ballpark design, marketing, and broadcasting would be done in Major League Baseball.

* * *

Two non-Dodger injury notes from Will Carroll at BP that remind us of the importance of caution when dealing with injuries. Dodgers, take note.

1) Albert Pujols might need be strapped to a gurney to keep from coming back to soon. Carroll writes:

Complicating the analysis is both Pujols' lineup value and his demonstrated ability to play through pain. Coming back too quickly can be devastating for any muscle strain. The body rebuilds the muscle with scar, weakening it by definition, though muscle can of course be strengthened around the tear. Retearing the muscle creates a vicious cycle of problems that can cause the type of career-altering cascades we've seen in the likes of Ken Griffey Jr. or Gil Meche. I'd expect the Cards to be ultraconservative with this injury, keeping Pujols on the shelf beyond the minimum, but less than the oft-quoted six weeks. It is going to be a Charybdean temptation for both manager and staff to write Pujols' name on the lineup card, one that will need to be balanced by the field, medical and front office staff.

2) There may well have been a connection between Roy Oswalt's tight hamstring a week ago and his back problem Sunday.

There is no question in my mind that Roy Oswalt has a cascade injury. In the always-great Alyson Footer's article at MLB.com, Oswalt all but says so himself. "I may have altered my mechanics," he says, referring to what he did after straining his hamstring. Oswalt is now dealing with mid-back spasms, an unusual location. Elsewhere in the article, we get clues. Oswalt's back only acted up when he threw curves, meaning that his mechanics remained altered into this session. Mid-back spasms usually involve some muscles rather than structural problems, so this isn't as bad as it sounds. The Astros medical staff will have to stop the pain-spasm cycle, the Astros field staff will have to keep Oswalt from altering his mechanics, and Oswalt will have to listen. A decision on the DL won't be made until mid-week and would follow an as-yet-unscheduled MRI.

In the same article, Carroll called the latest injury to ex-Dodger Gary Sheffield "devastating."

Comments (148)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-06-05 09:56:00
1.   Bob Timmermann
Kennedy didn't give his last speech until after midnight (June 5) and he died the morning of June 6 at Good Samaritan Hospital.

Of course, after this event, you couldn't just "drop in" on a campaign speech for a presidential candidate.

2006-06-05 10:00:32
2.   Jon Weisman
I'm not sure what you mean by that last line, Bob. I've seen presidental candidates speak, and it wasn't like I made a reservation.
2006-06-05 10:10:46
3.   Bob Timmermann
I guess I mean just get in at a reasonably close distance without going through more rigorous security.

I would think a candidate's hotel would be pretty well-secured now.

2006-06-05 10:30:34
4.   dagwich
I was there as well -- the only game my stepfather ever took me to. Sat in the RF bleachers so while not in the best seats, I can say that "I was there."

Unbelievable to wake up to the headlines about RFK the next morning, however. Still hard to believe it happened. I think that Jim Murray had a column that day or the next about our "Sick Society."

Oh, and Jon, congrats on the Fighting Weismans' beating the Wolfpack yesterday. Since I am sure nobody will step up, in the name of Jim Valvano, Chris Washburn and Sidney Lowe, I'll call the Pack The Fighting Dagwiches. In my book that's almost as reasonable as the Fighting Artichokes.

2006-06-05 10:41:28
5.   Jon Weisman
Thanks, Dagwich. We'll see if the Fighting Weismans name catches on. We've certainly had our name changes up there.
2006-06-05 10:41:30
6.   Midwest Blue
Fascinating combination of events.

BTW: Anybody read Buster Olney's Insider article on Dodger rookies? Anybody willing to reprint or paraphrase it for us poor people who can't (or won't) pay for Insider status?

2006-06-05 10:44:24
7.   Bob Timmermann
The LA Times frontpage on June 5, 1968 is very odd since they had to remake the front page several times. The very late editions had Boris Yaro's very haunting photo of Kennedy on the floor with people try to support him. (You could also say the photo is disturbing.)

Then there are stories on the inside pages about the election and the results in other states reporting on who won that obviously were printed well before the shooting.

Ronald Reagan was the winner of the Republican primary that day. He was the only Republican on the ballot.

2006-06-05 10:48:38
8.   Bob Timmermann
6
Nothing that you didn't know before. The Dodgers are getting good production from the rookies is the sum of it. Kim Ng credits Terry Collins and Logan White for identifying the players who can help.

Olney likes to focus on how many pitchers per PA each of the rookies average.

2006-06-05 10:49:08
9.   Bob Timmermann
That should have been "pitches" and not "pitchers" per PA.
2006-06-05 11:00:09
10.   FirstMohican
I just looked at the photo. Wow.

I wasn't born for more than another decade, but for anyone alive and old enough, what were his prospects of becoming president?

2006-06-05 11:10:52
11.   dagwich
10 -- he was certainly a viable candidate. Since LBJ had dropped out of the race it was fairly wide open in June. One might say that Eugene McCarthy was sort of the Howard Dean of his day (only I think with an even deeper base of support) and Humphrey was perceived as the more electable option, like Kerry. RFK was somewhere in between, and winning the California primary just gave him a huge boost. My guess is that RFK would have won the nomination had he not been gunned down.
2006-06-05 11:14:14
12.   Bob Timmermann
10
It was still was far from a sure thing that Kennedy would have even received the nomination. Hubert Humphrey was able to win the nomination and he didn't even enter any primaries I believe. There weren't nearly as many back in 1968.

A Kennedy vs. Nixon rematch in 1968 would have been something. By "something", I mean I don't know what that would have been like. But it likely wouldn't have been a pleasant campaign.

Although I was just 2 in 1968 except for the last three weeks, it was an extraordinarily turbulent year in American history and quite traumatic.

I have very early childhood memories of Yaro's photos being shown on TV in 1969 and 1970, most likely when there were news reports on Sirhan Sirhan and other investigations into the assassination.

The Central Libary in L.A. has a microfilmed set of the complete (or what is considered complete) of the LAPD investigation reports and evidence. It's 22 reels if you feel the need to read up on everything.

2006-06-05 11:15:36
13.   Sam DC
Here's a funny distraction. Not much point to it, but just funny. It's a tough cross-examination of a baseball fan about how exactly Sir Albert injured himself.

http://tinyurl.com/jbpmy

2006-06-05 11:19:07
14.   DXMachina
3.
Security didn't get rigorous very quickly. I went to a speech by Hubert Humphrey at my college when he was running (again) in 1972. After the speech, he just waded into the crowd and started shaking hands (including mine). He even autographed a bottle of Boone's Farm apple wine that someone handed him.
2006-06-05 11:24:07
15.   Disabled List
7 Ronald Reagan was the winner of the Republican primary that day. He was the only Republican on the ballot.

I know Reagan was CA governor in 1968, but are you saying that Nixon, who was also from California, didn't even appear on the primary ballot in his home state the year he was elected President?

2006-06-05 11:27:25
16.   Steve
15 -- Things were different then. Primaries were new and different and not the important part of winning the nomination. I don't know this for sure, but I assume Nixon's people kept him off the ballot in California because he would have been embarrassed by a potential loss.
2006-06-05 11:35:50
17.   Bob Timmermann
Reagan was on the primary ballot so he could go to the convention as a "favorite son". After 1968, that approach started to wane.

Reagan was quoted as saying he didn't think he would have much of an effect at the Republican Convention because he thought Nixon would have enough delegates to win anyway, but he wanted to have the option to cut a deal. Presumably if the nomination came down to Nixon vs. Rockefeller, Reagan would have thrown his delegates over to Nixon. But Nixon won easily.

I believe George McGovern took over Kennedy's delegates in 1968, but I think some of them peeled off to vote for other candidates. Regardless, Humphrey won on the first ballot.

2006-06-05 11:37:47
18.   Bob Timmermann
15
Another thing is that by 1968, Richard Nixon had moved to New York and was identified himself that way. His last attempt at running for statewide office in California was in 1962 when he ran against Pat Brown for governor.

It didn't go well.

2006-06-05 11:37:52
19.   Humma Kavula
15 16 Right -- IIRC, it was the 1968 Democratic Convention that got the Dems to change party rules and tie conventioneers' votes to their states' primary winners. Once the Democrats did that, every state had to pass laws saying the same thing, or their delegates wouldn't be seated at the '72 convention. (Again, IIRC, one state -- Louisiana? -- didn't play ball, and their delegates were not seated in 1972.)

As a result of states passing these laws tying delegates to primary winners, the Republicans also had to change the way they did business in 1972.

I hope I have my facts right here. It's been a long time since I studied this stuff.

2006-06-05 11:38:02
20.   Disabled List
16 - I guess that makes sense. Primaries were still beauty contests back then. The nominations were still decided in smoke-filled back rooms.

10 - If RFK had survived and won the nomination, I think he would've won. He was quite a bit more charismatic than Humphrey, and Nixon barely beat HHH (by less than one percentage point) in the popular vote that year.

2006-06-05 11:58:20
21.   Bob Timmermann
Bringing this back to Don Drysdale, in the June 17, 1968 New York Times there was a fullpage ad signed by numerous celebrities in many different fields asking for stricter gun control laws in wake of the RFK assassination.

Don Drysdale was one of the endorsers.

Others included (and it's a really long list and I left many of the names off):
Julie Andrews
Leonard Bernstein
Yul Brynner
Senator Clifford Case
Petula Clark
Bill Cosby
Noel Coward
Joe DiMaggio
Patty Duke
Clint Eastwood
Barbara Feldon
Ambassador Arthur Goldberg
Rock Hudson
Senator Jacob Javits
Danny Kaye
Werner Klemperer
The Lennon Sisters
Steve McQueen
Ricardo Montalban
Louis Nizer
Jack Paar
Roman Polanski
Lou Rawls
Edward G. Robinson
Vidal Sassoon
Telly Savalas
The Smothers Brothers
Sonny & Cher
Frank Sinatra
Jon Voight
Edward Bennett Williams
Earl Wilson
Flip Wilson
P.G. Wodehouse

Sorry for the length of that.

2006-06-05 12:03:11
22.   Kayaker7
Yul Brynner? Frank Sinatra? I wouldn't have expected them on the list. Having grown up in a different country for a part of my life, it always struck me as curious that one needs to go through much more to get a driver's license than obtain a gun. Easier to get a gun than cyanide, too.
2006-06-05 12:03:19
23.   ToyCannon
I was just a kid but RFK was my man in 68. Being from a West Point family I was already at odds with my parents political philosophies given his anti-war platform. My memory of the murder was Rosy Grier looming bigger then life and that was why I became a Ram fan. Boiled alive would not have been good enough for Sirhan.

On a cheerfull baseball note Eric Young Junior stole his 41st base and is on pace for 104 for the season. The number of 2nd generation black ballplayers keeps growing. I did a quick study that I need to get into more detail on but I think that the % of black major leaguers who are 2nd generation is over 15%.

2006-06-05 12:04:39
24.   Marty
Great story Jon.

I didn't remember that the Drysdale record and the California primary was the same day even though I was at Drysdale's previous game. My mother was a HUGE Kennedy fan and I do remember her waking up all us kids to watch the TV when he was shot. She wanted us to recognize history when it happened. I'd always thought that winning California was the sling-shot RFK needed to have enough momentum to wrap up the nomination. I've often wondered if the Chicago convention would have been as bad as it turned out to be if he had been alive.

2006-06-05 12:04:49
25.   Bob Timmermann
The list was striving for weird juxtapositions and not any political statement.
You can't pass up the chance to work in a Werner Klemperer reference.
2006-06-05 12:07:08
26.   Jon Weisman
That's quite a list.

I've seen three of those people in person: Clint Eastwood, Werner Klemperer and Vidal Sassoon.

I want to say we were all in Bob's kitchen, but that probably wasn't the case.

I once thought a great cartoon character name would be Vidal Baboon. You know how they like to do each other's hair and all.

2006-06-05 12:07:33
27.   Linkmeister
19 That's my memory of events, too (I was 17 at the time of the assassination). The riots at the Democrats' 1968 Chicago convention (police riot, as one Democratic Senator called them, or unwashed bums, as Mayor Daley called them) had multiple effects, but one was that primaries replaced traditional machine politics as the preferred nomination method.

RFK had caught a wave and knew it. I don't doubt he would have won the nomination that summer had he not been killed.

2006-06-05 12:08:49
28.   Jon Weisman
26 - Or was it Howard Fox's kitchen?
2006-06-05 12:12:54
29.   dagwich
20 -- Smoke filled rooms indeed. The reason why RFK would have won is that nobody was better in a smoke filled room than the Kennedys. I'm not a big fan of RFK, because he was uber-opportunistic and a well known pr##k but I think he had the goods on the rest of the pack. Bob Schieffer's up-to-now autobiography goes into some great detail about the '68 campaign, and all the variables that led to HHH's nomination -- fun reading.

21 -- I remember them all! Bob, your abilities remind me of a poster I saw on the outsisde of a Medical Librarian's door in a research center I used to work at: "If you absolutely, positively need to know something, ask a librarian!"

2006-06-05 12:18:24
30.   DougS
I was only 5 at the time of RFK's assassination and have little to no direct recollection of the event. But I do recall that — I believe it was to memorialize the event on its 30 th anniversary — the LAT went back into the vaults and transcribed Scully's broadcast intro from the June 5 game, noting the conjunction with Drysdale's great feat.

Even reading it instead of hearing it, I could tell that it was a rhetorical masterwork, in which he conveyed the difficulty of balancing grief over a truly terrible event that affected the entire nation, and the fact that the life still went on, even something as trivial as a baseball game (which could, perhaps, lighten our hearts a bit at this terrible hour). He never lost control of his message for an instant, all the emotions parceled out in precise measure and proper proportion. Made you misty-eyed, even just reading it. A brilliant performance. Brilliant.

2006-06-05 12:19:59
31.   Bob Timmermann
If Barbara Feldon's birthdate in the IMDB is correct, she is presently 74 years old.
2006-06-05 12:21:26
32.   Jon Weisman
31 - I hope she lives to be 99.
2006-06-05 12:21:42
33.   ToyCannon
The only name I don't recognize is
P.G. Wodehouse.

Do you guys know that we have a contributor who was the transportation secretary under Jerry Brown when he was our Gov? I wonder if he's working on the AG campaign. I think he's the only contributor who ever saw Jackie Robinson play baseball.

2006-06-05 12:28:09
34.   Bob Timmermann
30

Are you referring to something in the LA Times from 1998?

2006-06-05 12:30:22
35.   Humma Kavula
P.G. Wodehouse is the author of the Jeeves books.
2006-06-05 12:30:47
36.   Bob Timmermann
P.G. Wodehouse wrote the "Jeeves and Wooster" books among others.

It was a TV series starring Steven Fry and Hugh (now Dr. Greg House) Laurie also.

2006-06-05 12:31:37
37.   kegtron
Sirhan Sirhan, the pride of John Muir High School in Pasadena.
2006-06-05 12:35:36
38.   Bob Timmermann
So, in rating John Muir High grads, you put Sirhan Sirhan ABOVE Jackie Robinson?
2006-06-05 12:36:03
39.   Humma Kavula
37 Also graduates of John Muir High (accoridng to Wikipedia):

Darrell Evans
David Lee Roth

Go Mustangs.

2006-06-05 12:36:49
40.   Humma Kavula
Did Jackie Robinson graduate John Muir High? I gather than he graduated John Muir Junior College, before it became a high shcool...
2006-06-05 12:37:47
41.   ToyCannon
Darrell Evans - maybe the most underrated player of his time.
2006-06-05 12:39:21
42.   DougS
34 Yes, Bob, I believe it was 1998. It wasn't terribly recent, but wasn't so long ago that I've completely forgotten it. I'm making an educated guess that the occasion was the 30th anniversary.
2006-06-05 12:41:06
43.   Bob Timmermann
Jackie Robinson went to John Muir Technical High as it was known back then. Then to Pasadena Junior College. Then to UCLA.

There was a time in both Pasadena and Glendale that if you went to high school, you could just move straight on to the city JC.

2006-06-05 12:43:42
44.   Jon Weisman
Don't forget Stacey Augmon.
2006-06-05 12:46:22
45.   Bob Timmermann
44
There would be a few people who come by here who would think Ryan Hollins is the only basketball player of note from Muir High.

That makes me sad.

2006-06-05 12:50:28
46.   Marty
Hmm...my mother went to high school and junior college at PCC which I always thought Robinson did too, since they lived not far from each other and were about the same age. I think Jackie was younger, but not by more than a few years. I was under the impression that the present Muir high school did not exist in the late 30's.

I now live a 5-minute drive away from Muir High.

2006-06-05 12:51:24
47.   Bob Timmermann
I can't find any LA Times story with a transcript of Scully on a June 5, 1968 game.
2006-06-05 12:54:09
48.   Bob Timmermann
I got the info about Muir High from an article from the AAFLA.

http://www.aafla.org/9arr/JackieRobinson/jackie.htm

2006-06-05 13:01:16
49.   Marty
I'm doing some research, but I believe what is now PCC may have been called John Muir Junior college. I'm looking at a web page for a reunion of the 1955 class of John Muir high school:

Historic, because we are the FIRST class to graduate from the then newly created John Muir HIGH SCHOOL (remember, in 11th grade, we were Freshmen in the last year of John Muir Junior College?)

2006-06-05 13:02:13
50.   kegtron
Rodney King and Jacque Vaughn also went to John Muir.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-06-05 13:05:31
51.   ToyCannon
I remember being in awe of the Muir band when we played them in football(74-76).
2006-06-05 13:08:33
52.   Bob Timmermann
A 1939 LA Times article about Jackie Robinson going to UCLA puts it this way:

"Jackie attended Muir Tech High, the modern outgrowth of the old Pasadena High School where Babe Horrell achieved athletic fame."

The present day Muir High Alumni Association is claiming Robinson as one of theirs.

The LA Times article describes Robinson as attending "Pasadena Jaysee." I believe the present day Pasadena CC is on the same site as it was in Jackie Robinson's Day. And I assume the present day Muir High campus is in the same place it was in the 1930s. It would have made sense for Robinson to go there for high school. It wouldn't have been far away from his home on Pepper Avenue, which was on the east side of the Arroyo Seco.

2006-06-05 13:10:17
53.   Bob Timmermann
51

You wouldn't be in awe of the John Muir High band anymore.

Pasadena High has the big marching band in that district now. Pasadena High is now over toward the eastern part of the city of Pasadena.

2006-06-05 13:17:40
54.   dagwich
52 -- You don't mean THE Babe Horrell, so you? The one who played at Cal? Who knew?
2006-06-05 13:18:24
55.   Steve
Russ Martin nothing. Mike Lieberthal whacked a little girl over the head and made her cry. More reasons to hate Mike Lieberthal.
2006-06-05 13:18:39
56.   dagwich
"so you"="do you". Carumba.
2006-06-05 13:20:25
57.   deburns
33 C'est moi. I was living in D.C. at the time of the Kennedy assassination. I had fallen asleep in front of the TV before it happened, and when I awoke, there was a view of the hospital emergency entrance with no narration. It took me a while to figure out what had happened.
No, I'm not working on the EGB,Jr. campaign. He doesn't need any help, not even money, with a 30%+ lead.
2006-06-05 13:25:19
58.   Marty
52 Right, PCC and PJC have always been there, but it was a combined high school and junior college in the late 30's when my mother was there. Muir may have also been where it is too, but if it was, I don't understand why she wouldn't have gone there since she lived a mile from Muir and 3 miles from PCC.

Ahh, delving into history...

2006-06-05 13:42:17
59.   Jon Weisman
Paging Shav Glick ...
2006-06-05 13:44:31
60.   Marty
59 Exactly. I have a my mother's yearbook from 1940 and Shav is in there as sports editor.
2006-06-05 13:47:52
61.   DougS
47 Then I must be wrong about the date of publication. I suppose it could have been '93, to mark the 25th anniversary, but I remember it being more recent than that. But then, my brain is not always to be trusted.
2006-06-05 13:51:50
62.   ToyCannon
57
Good to hear from you. Can you send me an email, the ones I have for you aren't working at the moment.
2006-06-05 13:58:51
63.   Daniel Zappala
I didn't realize there would be a Wikipedia entry for my high school. I just found out that DJ Houlton attended Servite High.
2006-06-05 13:59:04
64.   DodgerJoe
For the recent football fans:
Brothers Saladin and Sultan McCullough went to Muir
2006-06-05 13:59:23
65.   Uncle Miltie
About a month ago, I said some nice things about Dusty Baker and said that I wouldn't mind bringing him back to the organization, just not as a manager. I don't ever want to see him a Dodgers uniform again.

This is about 2 years old. Still…..

"I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can't run, most of the time he's clogging up the bases for somebody who can run."

"You're down here to find out as a hitter where the head of the bat is," Baker said. "You're down here to find out how to get to that sweet spot of the bat. I let my guys hit."

"Who have been the champions the last seven, eight years? Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks?" Baker said. "Walks help. They do help. But you aren't going to walk across the plate, you're going to hit across the plate. That's the school I come from."

"Everybody can't hit with two strikes, everybody can't walk," Baker said. "You're taking away some of the aggressiveness of a kid if you're telling him to go up there and try to work for a walk.
"It's like when I see kids in Little League and they make the small kids go up there and try to get a walk. That's not any fun," Baker said. "Do you ever see the top 10 walking (rankings)? You see top 10 batting average. A lot of those top 10 do walk, but the name of the game is to hit."

I also thought that this was interesting:
Baker and outfielder Calvin Murray were talking about just such a thing Tuesday. Murray said his former hitting coach, George Hendrick, advised players to get deep in the count. However, players often were looking at pitches that might have been the best to hit.

Was Depodesta our GM when George Hendrick replaced Jack Clark as the hitting coach?

2006-06-05 14:03:08
66.   dsfan
Nate,

How do you see the draft playing out for the Dodgers? What's your most realistic, favorable scenario? Any draft sites you would recommend?

2006-06-05 14:08:45
67.   Jon Weisman
65 - No. Tim Wallach was chosen to fill the hitting coach vacancy shortly after DePo was hired.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/011942.html

2006-06-05 14:23:11
68.   natepurcell
How do you see the draft playing out for the Dodgers? What's your most realistic, favorable scenario? Any draft sites you would recommend?

draft sites

pgcrosschecker.com - allan simpson has his first round mock up.

mlb.com and their draft stuff is good

and baseballamerica.com callis has his top 15 mock up.

my favorite scenario would probably be grabbing kershaw at 7, kiker at 26 and kyler burke at 31 right now. It seems we might get kershaw, about all the mocks by the people with inside info (callis, simpson, mayo) all have kershaw falling past the tigers and into our laps.

2006-06-05 14:24:10
69.   Terry A
I'll never forget where I was the night they fired Jack Clark.
2006-06-05 14:24:13
70.   natepurcell
I didn't realize there would be a Wikipedia entry for my high school. I just found out that DJ Houlton attended Servite High.

you went to servite eh? I went to santa margarita. i think we're in the same league for sports.

2006-06-05 14:25:35
71.   Terry A
"my favorite scenario would probably be grabbing kershaw at 7, kiker at 26 and kyler burke at 31 right now. It seems we might get kershaw, about all the mocks by the people with inside info (callis, simpson, mayo) all have kershaw falling past the tigers and into our laps."

Speak English, man. ENGLISH! ;)

2006-06-05 14:26:00
72.   natepurcell
also if you go here

http://minorleagueball.com/main/1

sickels did a 5 round mock draft and CanuckDodger was the dodgers Scouting director. He went high school heavy and loaded up on 3 big texan arms: kershaw, walden and a sleeper LHP Angelle.

2006-06-05 14:27:30
73.   natepurcell
71

eh?

I presume you are giving me a hard time because I suck at spelling?

2006-06-05 14:28:58
74.   Daniel Zappala
70 Yes, same league. Some of my brothers went to Mater Dei, also in the Serra League.
2006-06-05 14:30:04
75.   natepurcell
74

Mater Dei got all the good black basketball players so we never had a chance. Until 2004, we beat them! one time! it was glorious.

2006-06-05 14:33:05
76.   Daniel Zappala
If this is supposed to be a weak draft, doesn't it make more sense to go with the high school arms, who are more likely to have untapped potential?
2006-06-05 14:36:05
77.   Vishal
my high school played servite; i think we're in the same league/division. we called them "pervite".
2006-06-05 14:36:18
78.   Daniel Zappala
75 Mater Dei has become the high school basketball recruiting equivalent of Notre Dame in its heyday. This is why all the Catholic schools are back into one league.

I date several decades back now (yikes!) but the big rivalry used to be football with Servite and Mater Dei, before Santa Margarita was built, and Servite got the best of that matchup. I have no idea where things stand now.

2006-06-05 14:37:08
79.   natepurcell
76

the strength of the draft is pitching and left handed high school pitching is well represented.

2006-06-05 14:37:24
80.   Daniel Zappala
I date far enough back that our unofficial school song was "Back in Black" by ACDC, since our primary color was black.
2006-06-05 14:39:27
81.   Steve
73 -- I think he's saying that you speak "draftish" which is a peculiar language, you must admit.
2006-06-05 14:42:03
82.   Bob Timmermann
I believe our esteemed host's high school alma mater is now one of the biggest basketball powerhouses in Southern California.

But I'm pretty sure I've got everybody else's high school beat in the baseball department.

Unless you attended Fremont. Then you would just be tied.

2006-06-05 14:49:53
83.   natepurcell
81

okay i get it now steve. I'll try to explain.

We have 3 picks in the top 31 then nothing until the 4th round again. The 3 picks are: 7, 26, 31.

The consensus of the draft experts is that Logan White will take the top rated high school pitcher at #7. This year, that top rated high school pitcher is LHP from Texas, Clayton Kershaw. Kershaw has everything you want in a prep prospect: outstanding fb with heavy late movement at 90-98, plus curveball that is a big sweeper, and a developing change up that he has a feel for to be a better then average pitch. He also has a very projectible athletic body at 6'4 200lbs. His make up is outstanding. Even though he comes from a upper class community, his family is pretty poor because he lives with his single mom. So he doesnt get anything for granted and has worked hard to achieve everyhing.

After about the first 10 picks or so, the draft becomes more complicated to predict and anyone's guess is as good as the experts. My ideal scenario would be for us to land lhp pitcher Kasey Kiker; or scott kazmir lite beta 2.0

Now, this wish isnt really out of the blue(heh no pun intended). Ive conversed with Kiker's coach in mid may and he told me the Dodger's really liked Kiker; even having their area scout take Kiker to a Columbus Catfish game and spending a ton of time with him to get a read on his personality/character and percieved make up issues. It seems they still like him and (hopefully) will pull the trigger at 26 if he is available.

at 31, I personally would like a high cieling but relatively polished prep hitter. One that may be available that fits the bill is OF prospect Kyler Burke from Tenn. He is a switch hitter with 5 tool potential that knows the strike zone. his power really blossomed this year and scouts evoke todd helton comparisons to him. He's been rising up draft boards this spring. I think he has a committ to Vandy so he might be a tough sign but should sign for 31st slot money (1 mil+)

okay thats detailed enough.

2006-06-05 14:51:44
84.   Terry A
73 -- Yes, what Steve said (81).

For those of us who don't know our Kikers from our Kershaws, it's quite dizzying.

But in a good way. And I do appreciate your wikipedic knowledge of all things farm*.

Let the draftish (draphtese?) continue unabated!

* -- Actual farm animals and/or implements may not apply.

2006-06-05 14:56:57
85.   natepurcell
my scouting report on Kiker:

5'11 lefty with tremendous arm strength, fb ranges from 90-97, sits 91-94. Delivery might not look pretty to the eye, but the mechanics are good and work well. uses a high leg kick to hide the ball a bit, ball gets on the hitter quicker then anticipated. His command and control is top 5 in the draft class. His curveball is above average but his change up is his bread and butter secondary pitch. Scouts are concerned about height, but hes never had arm troubles and his core area is well built. Make up issues hurt his draft stock. are they real issues or blown up? I dont know but the team that drafts him will have to find that out.

2006-06-05 15:10:22
86.   Daniel Zappala
nate -- great stuff, thanks
2006-06-05 15:17:20
87.   Jon Weisman
82 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_School_for_Boys
2006-06-05 15:20:42
88.   underdog
Yeah, well done Nate.
My only worry with Kiker is just... I'm not sure he'll still be there at 26. If he is, and the Dodger nab him, high fives all around.
2006-06-05 15:35:39
89.   Sam DC
87 Danica! Had no idea.
2006-06-05 15:35:43
90.   sanchez101
Couldn't the Dodgers wait and get Kiker at 31? I doubt the Cards or Red Sox are considering him, the only real question is if the White Sox want him.

I would love for the Tigers to take Hochevar, pushing Kershaw to us. The recent track record of 1st round prep lefthanders is excellent.

2006-06-05 15:38:25
91.   Jacob L
I also had no idea that my high school - Southern California's greatest prep tennis powerhouse - was on wikipedia. See if anyone guesses it based on that.

I learned that Senator George Allen (son of the football coach) also went to my school. I guess we were the cradle of coaches kids. We also had Art Shell, Jr., and Paul Westhead's daughter.

2006-06-05 15:39:03
92.   underdog
Since we're talking about the draft, this is kind of a sad story about Brien Taylor, the one-time phenom the Yankees drafted at #1 15 years ago.

http://tinyurl.com/oo5qv

What a weird way to injure your arm irreparably too. Not even a game injury...

2006-06-05 15:39:40
93.   natepurcell
90

the cards like russell county kids. they nabbed rasmus last yr and like both little rasmus and kiker this year.

2006-06-05 15:48:25
94.   sanchez101
93. then lets take him at 26, if he's still there
2006-06-05 15:51:02
95.   natepurcell
tonights line up is out. looks kind of boring, only 3 rookies :(
2006-06-05 15:51:50
96.   Another Bob
89 Danica McKellar is an "actress and mathemetician," but Shirley Temple (not "Shirley Temple Black") is just an actress. I guess being Ambassador to the UN really isn't that big a deal these days.

My high school has never been a southern California powerhouse at anything, though we have produced a Dodger manager, one very good relief pitcher, and one great one.

2006-06-05 15:53:47
97.   Ken Arneson
The only notable alumni on my high school's Wikipedia page are baseball players:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encinal_High_School
2006-06-05 15:58:59
98.   Another Bob
Oh, and my school doesn't rate a Wikipedia entry, either.
2006-06-05 15:59:06
99.   underdog
My high school doesn't even have a wikipedia entry yet. The two real notable baseball alumni? Jesse Orosco, and Eddie Matthews.
2006-06-05 16:02:38
100.   Eric L
99 My school doesn't rate a Wiki entry either.

Famous alumni include Ryan Madson and Kyle Turley.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-06-05 16:03:19
101.   sanchez101
99. so your a Don? I went to Dos Pueblos, our biggest ball player was Scott Randall, who if somehow youd never heard of him was a reliever who had a short stint with the Reds.
2006-06-05 16:03:48
102.   dsfan
Nate,

Athleticism is a big deal to me when it comes to investing first-round money in a pitcher. Is Kershaw a good athlete?

2006-06-05 16:08:40
103.   dsfan
Nate,

Don't know what your view on the Hochevar saga was, but I'm glad the LAD didn't sign him after he reneged on the deal and reportedly said it would have been an awful decision to accept $2.98 million guaranteed. If White thought $2.98-million was the max dollar for him even before Hochevar displayed such questionable makeup, you're undermining White by then exceeding that $2.98 million.

Hochevar's curveball is a tremendous pitch, but in today's game, it's pretty tough to get consistent strikes with that pitch.

I predict that Hochevar proves less valuable than what he gets to sign -- if, that is, he does sign and doesn't pull a Matt Harrington.

2006-06-05 16:08:45
104.   gpellamjr
Martinez as played well for the Dodgers so far this year, so why does it make me sick to my stomach to see him in the lineup? At least he's not batting 2nd again!
2006-06-05 16:10:56
105.   dsfan
One other thing on Hochevar: I think there's an ancillary benefit from demonstrating that you're going to stick to your valuation of a player, that you're willing to let him go back to the draft. Obviously it stings to get nothing for a draft pick, but all too often, the Dodgers and some other big spenders have cratered and ended up wasting money because they didn't stick to their valuation.
2006-06-05 16:12:59
106.   Marty
Who is/was Gil Meche?
2006-06-05 16:14:21
107.   natepurcell
Athleticism is a big deal to me when it comes to investing first-round money in a pitcher. Is Kershaw a good athlete?

all the reports ive read on kershaw have noted him on his outstanding athleticism. he wasnt a two sport start like billingsley or elbert but his athleticism is still very good.

from BA:
Now he has grown into his strong, athletic 6-foot-4, 210-pound frame, and his stuff has taken a leap. He has pitched at 90-96 mph all spring while continuing to pound the bottom of the strike zone. His curveball has improved even more than his fastball and now ranks a legitimate second plus pitch. He also has done a better job of repeating his delivery, giving him more control and command.

from perfect game:
: Described by more than one scout as "just a horse of a pitcher"; if so, this horse is a thoroughbred . . . has a strong, physical power pitcher's build and raw stuff . . . came into the spring throwing 90-91 mph, touching 94, now throwing steadily in the 95-96 mph range, touching 98 mph . . . he has an excellent arm action and mechanics and doesn't have much effort in his delivery . . . his curveball doesn't have ideal velocity at 72-73 mph but has tight spin and a big, sharp break; has a quality changeup for his age . . . . has dominated high school hitters since striking out 99 hitters his freshman year . . . a strained oblique muscle in late April was not considered serious, one scout said "he was dealing when he came out, I don't think anyone cared" . . . one of the very few players in the country scouts never seem to say anything negative about or qualify any statement . . . . probable Top 10 pick in the first round.

man, I am setting myself up for extreme dissapointment if we dont get kershaw.

2006-06-05 16:15:30
108.   Bob Timmermann
Gil Meche was a promising pitcher for the Mariners a few years ago.

His nickname was "Ga"

2006-06-05 16:16:56
109.   Eric Enders
Bob barely beat me to the Grendel joke...
2006-06-05 16:25:16
110.   Kayaker7
109 Not Beowulf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh
2006-06-05 16:31:52
111.   Humma Kavula
Speaking of Grendel... at least, the LA opera's production... I saw it on Saturday.

It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. I went in somewhat skeptical; contemporary classical music isn't really my bag (yes, I'm a philistine) and I wasn't sure how they were going to pull off the character. It turned out that yes, the music is atonal in places, but it works perfectly for the piece. They pulled off the character with style, wit, and humanity. The choices were interesting and nothing rang false -- I really felt for the character.

I really can't overstate how much I loved this production.

2006-06-05 16:34:58
112.   Kayaker7
111 Is it based on "Beowulf," or the novel, "Grendel?"
2006-06-05 16:35:58
113.   FirstMohican
I have some bad news about tonight's game.

Up on Dodgers.com, the headline is "Facing Mets, Tomko seeks return to form". We need pitchers who aim higher than this.

2006-06-05 16:38:36
114.   Humma Kavula
112 The novel. It is told from the monster's point of view; Beowulf is a minor character who appears only at the end.
2006-06-05 16:40:20
115.   Jon Weisman
Could someone some up the origins of Kemp's Bison nickname in a concise paragraph - including giving credit where credit is due?
2006-06-05 16:41:11
116.   Marty
108 Reminds me of the Philip Roth character, Gil Gamesh from "The Great American Novel". One scene has Gamesh pitching and throwing four straight pitches at the batter's head. When the ump asks him what he's doing he replies "Ain't you never heard of the intentional pass?".

That's my favorite baseball novel.

2006-06-05 16:42:40
117.   Kayaker7
114 I had to read it in high school, the novel that is. I recall that the opening scene in the novel refered to a goat's testicles, so we all felt very proud that we were allowed to read an true "adult" novel.
2006-06-05 16:42:46
118.   Jacob L
116 A Ruppert Rooter, are you?
2006-06-05 16:45:15
119.   Humma Kavula
117 That spirit is very much alive in the opera. It may or may not be the first opera in English to employ several of my favorite words that Jon doesn't allow on this site.

The language drove a lot of the blue-hairs at the Saturday matinee a little nuts, but my friends and I ate it up.

2006-06-05 16:46:27
120.   Marty
118 Yes I am :) The Mundys were the greatest team that never was.
2006-06-05 16:46:35
121.   Bob Timmermann
For what it's worth, the NL Player of the Month for May and the most recent player of the Week are on Pittsburgh (Jason Bay and Jose Castillo). The Rookie of the Month is a Marlin (Josh Johnson) and the Pitcher of the Month is a Giant (Jason Schmidt).
2006-06-05 16:47:18
122.   Jon Weisman
115 - "sum," not "some"
2006-06-05 16:50:07
123.   Kayaker7
119 LOL. I can't imagine Placido Domingo singing about a goat's balls..."balls" is not a bad word is it? The goat was carrying the baseballs to the park...yeah, that's the ticket.
2006-06-05 16:50:14
124.   Bob Timmermann
Is the Angels game televised? And if someone was watching, what was this play:

Carl Crawford walks. Julio Lugo scores. Carl Crawford to 3rd. Throwing error by catcher Mike Napoli. Fielding error by center fielder Chone Figgins.

2006-06-05 16:53:11
125.   Humma Kavula
123 Placido wouldn't sing it, because he's a tenor. The part is written for bass-baritone, which is one of the most interesting things about it.
2006-06-05 16:53:53
126.   Another Bob
124 I wasn't watching, but my guess is that Lugo was on first and running. Napoli threw to 2nd even though it was ball 4; the ball went into center field and Figgins let it get by him.

Do I win anything if I'm right?

2006-06-05 16:54:08
127.   sanchez101
115 - the Bison nickname technically came from Bob, who didnt like the Buffalo nickname and claimed that Bison is the correct term. As for where Buffalo came from, It was one of the Atlanta broadcasters that was announcing Kemp's 2nd game:

108. natepurcell
Kemp has looked a lot better at the plate today. he isnt swinging at balls, looks composed and looks nothing like his adrian beltre impersonation from yesterday.

lol, the braves announcer just call him a big stomping buffalo.

109. autumnlanding
"like a big buffalo running around the bases"

2006-06-05 16:54:27
128.   Kayaker7
124 ???? Okay, I'll guess. The catcher threw the ball over the pitcher's head, and it went into the outfield. Figgins, busy gettin' Figgy widdit, was surprised by the ball rolling to him, and let it get by him.
2006-06-05 16:57:07
129.   sanchez101
Im on record against the buffalo/bison nicknames. Among other reasons, I dont like the idea of a random local Atlanta broadcaster coming up with a Dodger nickname. This is Southern California, we should be able to come up with a cooler nickname.
2006-06-05 16:57:10
130.   overkill94
124 Steal attempt on ball 4, the rookie catcher threw anyway, it was very high, it rolled past Figgins (and almost all the way to the wall). Crawford might have come all the way around if he didn't have a bum knee right now.
2006-06-05 16:59:12
131.   Johnson
127 Actually, D4P suggested that Bob would prefer "bison" to "buffalo". Bob never commented about it (at least in the original thread). Looks like after Nate's observation in 108, the last mention of "bison" was in 129, to second D4P. But it stuck anyways.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/387331.html

2006-06-05 16:59:20
132.   Bob Timmermann
Thanks for the explanation of that play.

As for Kemp's nickname maybe we need an animal indgenous to the area. But I guess The Coyote is not good. Or Quail.

2006-06-05 16:59:53
133.   overkill94
129 I'm okay with it only because it was a random observation and not an attempt by them to make it a nickname. Plus, since we already have a bull, we could end up with a nice "stable" of young rookies. What could Joel be, a mustang?
2006-06-05 16:59:54
134.   bhsportsguy
There is an article on Baseball Prospectus that I am sure Nate would enjoy that reviewed the drafts for the past 15 or so years and the data shows that right now, college hitters are generally the players whose value is most easily ascertained. I think that is why when they say this draft is down, it is due to the lack of college hitting talent.

At this intstant of time, high school players are the one area that is most undervalued, especially pitching.

Reading between the lines, I think that is because there is still concern about the number of innings college pitchers throw.

Another point, while on average, the first 100 picks are usually split pretty evenly between high school and college players, the past 3 years have been tilted (post-Moneyball) 60/40 college.

I do think like everyone else it will be a HS pitcher at 7, I think 26 & 31 will be the best player they have on their chart but none of these three will see Dodger Stadium anytime soon.

2006-06-05 16:59:57
135.   Jon Weisman
129 - Well, if we're the ones to make it cool - by taking the buffalo and making it a bison - I think it's okay.

My only reservation was whether bisons had good throwing arms, but that's me overthinking.

2006-06-05 17:00:37
136.   Bob Timmermann
131
I have a long list of pet peeves and if everybody indulged me on each one, the world would be a rather picayune place.
2006-06-05 17:01:33
137.   underdog
101 (Sorry for delay) Yepper, SBHS grad I am. I think I have actually heard of Randall, which is a little scary. ;-) Don't forget Stephen Randolph, who has been in and out of the minor leagues but still in the Diamondbacks system I think...
2006-06-05 17:03:17
138.   Marty
Thee seem to be bears roaming around in my neighborhood. Why don't we call him "Bear"? Nothing more California then that. The Cal contingent should approve also. The Stanford contingent, of which there is one very important one, may not approve.
2006-06-05 17:06:18
139.   Jon Weisman
Game thread is open.
2006-06-05 17:06:36
140.   bhsportsguy
Jacksonville won again today, they should clinch their first half championship by the weekend.

By early July, I could see Jacknsonville promoting LaRoche (he would have spent a full year in AA) and Orenduff (he has to be put on the 40 man at the end of the year, he was drafted out of college so he is a little older than the rest of the prospects.)

For the AA playoffs (assuming Vero Beach does not have a great 2nd half), I could see them promoting DeWitt and Elbert in August, maybe Paul if he continues to play well.

After that, we will have to see how the 2005 and 2006 picks pan out.

2006-06-05 17:11:31
141.   sanchez101
138. how about Grizzly? or Mashin' Matt, it doesnt have the ring of Joltin' Joe but its a start. Or better yet NotAdrianBelte.
2006-06-05 17:18:12
142.   overkill94
Kemp doesn't really have the correct size for a bear. I'd imagine someone like David Ortiz or Prince Fielder if I heard someone was nicknamed "bear".

How about condor? Large wingspan, very big for a bird, and since it flies it symbolizes speed.

2006-06-05 17:19:26
143.   underdog
Bear can have a different connotation, too, especially in this here Bay Area. ;-) He may no t want Folsom St leather daddies getting the wrong idea...
2006-06-05 17:25:33
144.   Andrew Shimmin
Condors are horrendously ugly; I don't know that Mr. Kemp would enjoy the insinuation. Bison doesn't thrill me, but Condor I couldn't stand.
2006-06-05 17:32:02
145.   overkill94
144 Since when was baseball about aesthetics? ;)

I actually like bison, I was just trying to please the crowd who requested a regional nickname.

2006-06-05 17:32:26
146.   Andrew Shimmin
Also, they're endangered, having not developed an evolutionary distaste for drinking anti-freeze, if I recall; let us hope Kemp is not similarly disposed. I really hate condors. This was a major problem for me, in my Environmental Science class in high school. I don't know that it was held against me at the end of the term, but it was clearly held against me during every class period after the one in which I admitted it.
2006-06-05 18:18:47
147.   ToyCannon
You were probably poked and prodded by a Condor while clinging to life in your prior life which must have ended miserably.
2006-06-05 18:27:25
148.   Andrew Shimmin
If you think the penalty for stealing fire from the Gods was bad, imagine what they did to the guy who stole bourbon! Hypothetically.

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