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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The 26th Man
2006-06-13 15:01
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

This afternoon, the Dodgers announced that they had activated Jeff Kent but held off revealing who would leave the active roster. It's mystifying why it wouldn't be Eric Gagne, or if it is, why it would take so long to announce.

Even if Gagne has convinced the Dodgers that he is ready to pitch, why would they believe him? Why would they rush him back into action? Here you have them giving Jeff Kent, who has a good record of health, more time than he needed to recover from his injury. Why would Gagne be treated less gingerly?

If they haven't already, someone should hide Gagne's uniform.

(And then, if everyone wants him to pitch so badly, he can pitch in his skivvies. That should take our minds off his arm troubles.)

Update: For those just tuning in, Gagne went on the disabled list again - and will be there more than 15 days.

"Although Gagne's placement on the DL is retroactive to last Wednesday, he won't be ready when he's eligible to return next week," Ken Gurnick of MLB.com wrote. "He will need to play catch, then throw off a mound, then probably face hitters. And none of that will happen until the nerve is completely sensation free. In (Brad) Penny's case, while there was constant therapy, the keys were time and patience."

Regarding the starting rotation, Gurnick wrote in his notebook that "manager Grady Little said the next five games tentatively line up with Brad Penny, (Brett) Tomko, (Odalis) Perez, Derek Lowe and Aaron Sele."

"But you know the way it is around here," Little told Gurnick. "It's subject to change at a moment's notice."

* * *

Tonight's Game

Comments (585)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-06-13 16:15:22
1.   sanchez101
At what point does Gagne become the Dodger version of Kerry Wood, or are we past that point?
2006-06-13 16:18:43
2.   trainwreck
Seriously, is Rich Harden in Prior and Woods class yet?
2006-06-13 16:19:50
3.   Blu2
Maybe someone is leaving the roster via trade, and it's not quite settled yet...
2006-06-13 16:23:25
4.   Jon Weisman
3 - Certainly possible, but it still wouldn't explain why Gagne should remain active. I find it hard to believe he's suddenly 100 percent, even by current standards, and he shouldn't pitch at anything less.
2006-06-13 16:24:48
5.   bhsportsguy
Not being a pitching expert but I wonder if Chad is coming up, will they want him here in time to throw on the side in prep for his first start and if he is going to pitch against the Padres maybe they want him here so he can see them play.

If that is the case, simply putting Gagne on the DL won't cut it, they will need to extend someones 15-day to 60-day (Mueller, Repko or Ledee) or cut someone.

It will probably be the DL move, that delays the decisions on Seo, Perez for a couple of days.

2006-06-13 16:25:51
6.   bhsportsguy
The Bison is on with Steve and John on KSPN 710 here in LA right now. Sorry no internet access.
2006-06-13 16:27:27
7.   Jon Weisman
The move of someone to the 60-day is easily done. And I assume with Kent back, Joel Guzman will go down to AAA to create an active roster spot for Billingsley.

They could send Guzman down now, but it would just make me really uncomfortable to think that they plan to use Gagne this week. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems wrong to me.

2006-06-13 16:28:09
8.   Xeifrank
Why? Why? Why?!!! :)
How long can they hold off on the decision?
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 16:29:23
9.   Jon Weisman
Really, I should just shut up until the announcement comes. I'm just wasting energy.
2006-06-13 16:31:16
10.   underdog
There is probably just some official logistics and bureaucracy they have to deal with first before telling all of us about it. My guess is it really is: Kent up (done), Guzman down, Gagne down, Billingsley up.

The suspense isn't killing me, but it did make my eyebrow twitch for just a second.

2006-06-13 16:35:55
11.   Telemachos
Anyone near a radio who wants to summarize what the Bison had to say on 710?
2006-06-13 16:42:39
12.   Bluebleeder87
6

can you give us a rap up of what he said?

2006-06-13 16:44:55
13.   Bluebleeder87
how long was he on? I tride tunning in but...(Kemp)
2006-06-13 16:47:30
14.   underdog
I would like to know if C-Bill is coming up to pitch Friday in particular, because then I may try to get a ticket to that game up here in Oakland. Hope they decide sooner than... Friday.

Maybe they can send Odalis P down... to the Gulf Coast League...

2006-06-13 16:47:44
15.   bhsportsguy
11 First he thanked everyone for his new handle, "Bison."

He sounded really confident, he said back in spring, he wanted to make the Show but when he went to AA, he worked hard and he is not surprised to be here and doing well.

And I don't mean to imply that he sounded cocky, just that quiet confidence that comes from hard work and the knowledge that he belongs here.

He says the clubhouse is great, the veterans (Kenny, Nomar, Kent) are telling them things and everyone is having fun.

2006-06-13 16:49:27
16.   bhsportsguy
Jon, continuing from the last thread, Alanis Morrisette's "Ironic" was the worse thing for defining irony for generations to come.
2006-06-13 16:52:06
17.   thinkblue0
this whole Gagne not on the DL thing is pretty mysitfying...not to mention he's now holding a spot hostage in my fantasy league which I could use to activate Jose Guillen.
2006-06-13 16:53:34
18.   Humma Kavula
16 But 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife? Doesn't that get at man's folly and mock the fitness and rightness of things?
2006-06-13 16:54:14
19.   Marty
16 True
2006-06-13 16:55:13
20.   Marty
Inconvenient would have been a more apt title.
2006-06-13 16:56:26
21.   Humma Kavula
20 We always called that song "Bummer."
2006-06-13 16:56:44
22.   trainwreck
Come on guys its like when its a free ride and your'e already there.
2006-06-13 17:01:41
23.   Humma Kavula
22 We arrived in Paris on one particular day in June, 2003, just after a two-day Metro strike ended. We bought Metro tickets at a machine, validated them, and got on the subway. When we arrived at our destination, a kind friend advised us that the Metro was free all day that day -- the Metro's way of apologizing to the citizens of Paris for the strike.

So, indeed, we got a free ride when we'd already paid. It was, in a word, a bummer.

2006-06-13 17:02:14
24.   DodgerJoe
With Kent in the line-up, don't they have to make a roster move by game time?

What is the rule on that?

2006-06-13 17:05:22
25.   Andrew Shimmin
They've already made the move. Thier just playing at managing the news cycle. Which is irritating and suspicious.
2006-06-13 17:05:58
26.   Bluebleeder87
16

now that's funny!!

from baseball to a chick song??

2006-06-13 17:06:06
27.   Andrew Shimmin
Ew, ew, ew. They're.
2006-06-13 17:10:17
28.   Bob Timmermann
You can make roster moves up to game time. Remember when Wilton Guerrero was told he was traded as he was getting ready to lead off the game. Eric Young came out of the dugout, tapped him on the shoulder and took his place. Young was activated off the DL. This happened at Shea Stadium.

Bobby Valentine blew a gasket over that.

2006-06-13 17:11:43
29.   trainwreck
With Arizona DFAing Russ Ortiz, how long till we DFA Odalis?
2006-06-13 17:12:05
30.   Vishal
[16] you mean "worst"?

anyway, i'm sick of this too, but i will defend irony. from dictionary.com:

"An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning."

to give a nickname that evokes probably the most recognizable athlete on the planet to a relatively unknown rookie who, though good, doesn't deserve nearly that type of acclaim, must have been done with at least some irony, and not in a completely straightforward exuberant manner.

2006-06-13 17:14:35
31.   Vishal
and to defend intersport comparisons, are not the brazilians the yankees of soccer?
2006-06-13 17:18:00
32.   Kayaker7
31 Nah, the Brazilians are not so hated. Yankees buy their talent. The Brazilians develop their own.
2006-06-13 17:20:55
33.   trainwreck
I do not see how Brasil being like the Yankees helps the argument haha.
2006-06-13 17:24:16
34.   Vishal
[32] i'm sure some of their HOF players were developed. in fact, they've still got jeter, posada, rivera, and williams. and i'm too young to know where mantle, dimaggio, berra, etc.. etc... came from, but i assume many of them from before the free agent era were developed.
2006-06-13 17:27:02
35.   Bob Timmermann
31

People like the Brazilians. I think they are helped by having some of the most attractive fans in the world.

The Yankees cannot make that claim.

No offense to Alex or Cliff.

2006-06-13 17:33:09
36.   Vishal
they're attractive sure, but what about their artificial enhancements? :)
2006-06-13 17:36:57
37.   JoeyP
The Dbax may finally have someone in the management seat that knows what they are doing. I'm surprised they DFA'ed Ortiz and ate that contract, but it was a good move. Whats most suprising is that Moorad signed off on it, even though he's the one that signed Ortiz. Byrnes must be a good communicator.
2006-06-13 17:45:20
38.   bhsportsguy
34 That just makes me feel really old.

Ruth: see Curse of the Bambino
Gehrig: signed out of Columbia University
Joe D.: signed out of PCL-SF Seals
The Mick: signed out of Okie

The current system for U.S. born players (and Puerto Rico) is the draft which started in 1965 or 1966. All international players are still on the open market.

2006-06-13 17:49:16
39.   Vishal
yeah, i knew where ruth came from, that's why i didn't mention him :)

so anyway, does my point still hold or what?

2006-06-13 17:54:11
40.   bhsportsguy
39 Depends on your point of view, before the draft, they did go out and acquire talent because they had the money to do so, afterwards, if you are talking HOFs, Reggie, Catfish Hunter and Winfield were bought and we are still waiting to find out (as far as I can remember) about Guidry, Mattingly, and Jeter. A-Rod and Randy Johnson are probables but again they were basically bought.
2006-06-13 17:55:28
41.   Marty
Kansas City was a defacto farm team for the Yankees as well in the 50's and 60's.
2006-06-13 17:56:28
42.   s choir
The Brazil/Yanks comparison is fair. People don't hate the Yankees because they buy their talent. They are hated because they win all the time. That kind of success just gets boring. I hate the Braves for the same reason.

I lost a lot of respect for Jack Nicholson when I saw him on the Dodgervision at the Dodgers/Yankees series in 2004, wearing a gold Yankees cap. It's one thing to root for the Lakers, or to root for the Yankees, but its quite another to root for both. There's no organic reason to do so. The only people I know who are both Yankees and Lakers fans are insecure weenies who can't stand being a fan of a losing team.

But I agree about the hot Brazilian fans. That almost redeems them.

2006-06-13 17:56:45
43.   Telemachos
41 Was? Aren't they still (for all practical purposes)? :)
2006-06-13 18:01:29
44.   Steve
Good Lord, Phil Garner is a moron.
2006-06-13 18:01:33
45.   ToyCannon
43
Once upon a time very long ago the Royals kicked the Yankee's hynies. It was a great rivaly and the George Brett playoff home run off of Gossage is still one of my favorite memories. Of course I'll find out from someone it wasn't Gossage but my mind thinks it was.
2006-06-13 18:02:44
46.   ToyCannon
42
An actor being an insecure weenie. I wonder what the odds of that are?
2006-06-13 18:03:59
47.   ToyCannon
So I expect the cry of dispair about Ned will reach epidemic proportions when he signs his old pal Russ Ortiz to a minor league deal:)
2006-06-13 18:04:16
48.   bhsportsguy
A Martinez just announced that Gagne has been put on the DL retroactive to June 7th.
2006-06-13 18:04:23
49.   Bob Timmermann
45
Nope, it was Gossage.
2006-06-13 18:06:28
50.   underdog
47 Y'know, I was feeling pretty good about the state of things, and the Dodgers, until you had to go and put that awful thought in my head. I won't sleep well tonight...
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-06-13 18:12:54
51.   bhsportsguy
Grittle said Penny and Tomko will finish the series in San Diego and in Oakland, the Dodgers will have Perez, Lowe and Sele.
2006-06-13 18:14:46
52.   Humma Kavula
51 Maybe he didn't get the memo.
2006-06-13 18:15:58
53.   natepurcell
oh my goodness, twins game, special alert...

santana has 11 strike outs through 5IP so far.

2006-06-13 18:16:51
54.   ToyCannon
Does that end the Chad watch for this week?
Sele should have imploded twice by then but OP will pitch a good game.
2006-06-13 18:18:02
55.   bhsportsguy
54 Let's see if he makes his next start, if he does then the Chad watch can wait until they get home next week.
2006-06-13 18:21:21
56.   Steve
We are officially in the 2004 Nomo Walking Corpse State of Denial Period. Great.
2006-06-13 18:21:32
57.   Eric L
46 Or Jack grew up in New Jersey (it looks like an hour away from the Bronx) in the 40s and 50s.

He moved out to LA before the Lakers moved here.

I can't say that I fault him for being a Yankees fan from his youth and a Lakers fan. I think he is one of the few original Lakers season ticket holders (from when the Lakers didn't even have a local radio deal).

Not that I'm defending Jack, but I think there is some rationale as to why he roots for both teams.

2006-06-13 18:22:50
58.   trainwreck
Why in the world is Odalis allowed another chance to start?
2006-06-13 18:25:49
59.   Bluebleeder87
51

I like Tomko out there

2006-06-13 18:26:41
60.   Bluebleeder87
53

some of us don't have "special packages"

2006-06-13 18:27:18
61.   Bluebleeder87
55

home next week sounds pretty darn good.

2006-06-13 18:27:41
62.   Eric L
Santana is at 12 Ks now. I happened upon this game by accident.
2006-06-13 18:28:41
63.   trainwreck
Ok, who is in control of pre-game celebrations for the Miami Heat?

They had a black man dressed in Japanese attire surrounded by taiko drummers The man was waving the Miami Heat flag (it suspiciously looks like the flag of Japan), which is a red basketball in the middle of a white flag.

2006-06-13 18:28:46
64.   Bob Timmermann
60
Hey, I'm 100% natural.
2006-06-13 18:31:08
65.   william
From the other thread... Guo is the Chinese Mainland spelling, Kuo is the Taiwanese spelling.
2006-06-13 18:31:10
66.   KidCuba
So no Bills next week? Damn it! But it is the right thing, no need to bring him up, unless it is for keeps.

Remember the saga of Edwin Jackson.

2006-06-13 18:32:45
67.   JoeyP
Jeff Francoeur continues to amaze, for all the wrong reasons.

Ok, last year people thought he swung at everything. 257ABs 58Ks 11BBs

This year he's actually worse:
269ABs 55Ks 4BBs

I'm beginning to think that the Braves didnt win last year bc of their kids, but rather Andruw Jones having a career season. McCann looks like the real deal, but he's not that much better than Johnny Estrada. Langerhans/Johnson are 4th OF'ers. Francoeur should probably be bussing it in AAA. As for pitching, its too early to tell on Kyle Davies.

At this point, I think the Braves farm kids have been overrated.

2006-06-13 18:33:57
68.   trainwreck
Billingsley should be up for keeps, instead we have Odalis Perez who clearly knows something incriminating about Grady Little from their days in Atlanta.
2006-06-13 18:35:32
69.   natepurcell
McCann looks like the real deal, but he's not that much better than Johnny Estrada.

what the....???

2006-06-13 18:37:57
70.   KidCuba
Bills should be the #5, right now, if the Dodgers could commit to that situation. But of course, they are stuck messing around with Sele, Seo, and Perez (damn, Perez, and his $9,500,000).

Since they cannot or will not commit to Bills, let him ripen in Vegas.

2006-06-13 18:39:23
71.   KidCuba
Bills should be the #5, right now, if the Dodgers could commit to that situation. But of course, they are stuck messing around with Sele, Seo, and Perez (damn, Perez, and his $9,500,000).

Since they cannot or will not commit to Bills, let him ripen in Vegas.

2006-06-13 18:39:25
72.   KidCuba
Bills should be the #5, right now, if the Dodgers could commit to that situation. But of course, they are stuck messing around with Sele, Seo, and Perez (damn, Perez, and his $9,500,000).

Since they cannot or will not commit to Bills, let him ripen in Vegas.

2006-06-13 18:39:43
73.   thinkblue0
59-

I like Tomko out there

uhhh...why?

2006-06-13 18:39:58
74.   trainwreck
Not only does Santana throw K's, but he gives private fishing lessons.
2006-06-13 18:43:07
75.   thinkblue0
varitek homers. Santana could possibly get a loss here...unbelievable.
2006-06-13 18:43:14
76.   natepurcell
Brad McCann is not that much better then Johnny Estrada like Russ Martin is not that much better then Jason Phillips.
2006-06-13 18:43:32
77.   trainwreck
Santana has a chance to throw 20 K's and lose the game.
2006-06-13 18:44:36
78.   JoeyP
76. Are you unfamiliar with Johnny Estrada's production at the big league level?
2006-06-13 18:46:11
79.   Steve
This is crazy talk, particularly since Johnny Estrada is 30.
2006-06-13 18:46:37
80.   natepurcell
sure, a career 730OPS and he is already 29 yrs old and a terrible defensive catcher whereas McCann is 22 yrs old and has a career 846OPS and is a pretty good defensive catcher who is only going to get better.
2006-06-13 18:49:11
81.   Humma Kavula
77 it will now be very tough for Santana to throw 20 Ks and lose the game. He has 13 through 7.
2006-06-13 18:50:17
82.   underdog
Well, let's see how Sele does tonight of course - and I think we're all in that "waiting for the other shoe (implosion) to drop" mentality with him - but especially if he does well again tonight I'm willing to actually bump him out of the "lumped in with Odalis and Seo" category. I wonder how many more quality starts he needs before we all sort of accept him (not as savior but at least as decent #4).

(Not that one night should decide someone's season one way or another, mind you...)

2006-06-13 18:50:51
83.   ToyCannon
78
Are you familiar with the fact that McCann has an 950 OPS as a 22 year old catcher?
2006-06-13 18:52:14
84.   Humma Kavula
Cuddyer bails out Santana.
2006-06-13 18:53:04
85.   LAT
Don't want to jinx anything but one nice thing about this team is that even if Sele pitches poorly, this team can still come up with five or six runs without breaking a sweat.
2006-06-13 18:53:22
86.   JoeyP
Estrada still makes nothing salary wise and is in his prime. So if you're talking value, I think he's more valuabe right now than McCann is. (if he's a better player RIGHT NOW, which I think he is).

McCann probably will end up the better player when he's 26-28, but he'll also be making 6-9 mils a year by then.

Estrada's value, like all players, is tied to his salary. McCann making nothing isnt that much more valuable than Estrada making nothing right now.

Estrada's injured year last year also distorts his career numbers.

2006-06-13 18:54:54
87.   natepurcell
You would rather have Estrada right now then McCann right now? I still dont see how when McCann is outproducing Estrada offensively and defensively.
2006-06-13 18:55:22
88.   ToyCannon
82
If Sele was left handed I could possibly accept the fact that he might have a Moyer type resurrection after the age of 35 but since I can never recall a soft tossing RHP past 35 who was already done come back with long term success I'd be willing wear a Giant hat at a Dodger game if Sele pitches capably the rest of this year.
2006-06-13 18:55:28
89.   natepurcell
also, Estrada makes 2 mil this season whereas McCann is on his rookie salary.
2006-06-13 18:55:46
90.   Steve
This line of argument should simply be withdrawn.
2006-06-13 18:56:13
91.   JoeyP
LOL.. Eric Byrnes just made one of the dumbest plays even for him. He hits a 1-out double, then gets picked off 2nd base. Chad Tracy next pitch hits a home run.
2006-06-13 18:56:19
92.   natepurcell
You still showed me anything to convince me Estrada is the better player right now then McCann.
2006-06-13 18:57:07
93.   natepurcell
still havent
2006-06-13 18:57:40
94.   Eric L
86 According to ESPN, Estrada is making $2 million this year. Relatively speaking, it isn't much but he isn't making rookie type of money either.

I would assume that he is going to be arb eligible next year and he salary is going to jump quite a bit but he is going to be old.

At least when McCann hits arb, he will be somewhat young.

2006-06-13 18:58:22
95.   regfairfield
Estrada's best year: .314/.378/.450 102 career rate2.

McCann's career: .310/.371/.461 101 rate2.

2006-06-13 18:59:44
96.   ToyCannon
86
Isn't a 30 year old catcher on the other side of his prime. All of your arguement would have merit if you weren't trying to compare him to McCann. Just because Franceour blows, don't bring down the best young hitting cather in the NL with him.
2006-06-13 19:00:55
97.   natepurcell
I'm just glad that JoeyP isnt holding his high standards for prospects only to Dodger farmhands. He spreads the wealth evenly! :)
2006-06-13 19:01:20
98.   JoeyP
Estrada isnt a bad defensive catcher.
As for this present season, I'd rather have Estrada bc he's in his prime and a little more proven than McCann is. Plus he still doesnt make much in terms of salary.

I dont think Brian McCann will keep up his present numbers. I think he'll of course be better by the time he's 25-28, but I think an ideal player to have is one making nothing and in his prime. Thats what Estrada is.

2006-06-13 19:01:44
99.   bhsportsguy
I am just amazed by the arguments that go on here.
2006-06-13 19:02:17
100.   Greg S
To go back to an old topic, just saw McCourt's little "In His Own Words" thing. I think what he said was taken wrong. He didn't seem to take credit for the farm system's improvement. He was just saying it had improved recently and unfortunately used his tenure as a time marker. That may sound like splitting hairs but I didn't think it was that offensive.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-06-13 19:02:42
101.   natepurcell
Eh, I guess I'll agree to disagree. Dodger game is almost on, lets not flood this thread with Brave's talk.
2006-06-13 19:02:47
102.   Bob Timmermann
Why would it be such a travesty if Santana lost a game in which he K'd 20? Steve Carlton lost a game in which he struck out 19.

Randy Johnson K'd 20 in 9 innings and got a no decision.

2006-06-13 19:03:50
103.   Greg S
It's time for Dodger Baseball. Not the best five words you could hear but some pretty good ones right now.
2006-06-13 19:04:14
104.   trainwreck
Sad to say but Sele is our number 3 starter, not number 4.

In case anyone forgot, Trett Bomko still sucks.

2006-06-13 19:04:14
105.   JoeyP
You still showed me anything to convince me Estrada is the better player right now then McCann

Why would I have to?

This was my original statement: "McCann looks like the real deal, but he's not that much better than Johnny Estrada."

I think I've reasonably shown why I believe McCann to not be that much better than Estrada.

2006-06-13 19:04:14
106.   Bob Timmermann
Santana still has 13 Ks and he's pitched 8 innings.

So unless Joe Mauer has a really bad inning behind the plate in the 9th, it looks like Santana won't be getting 20.

2006-06-13 19:04:36
107.   natepurcell
102

because that amount of dominance should be rewarded with a win!

2006-06-13 19:04:54
108.   KidCuba
This is actually an interesting debate...

From a long-term perspective, McCann would be the player to select.

From a here and now view, Estrada would be the man.

If I were the Braves, I use McCann. Atlanta is not winning this year and they could use the season to further develop McCann.

2006-06-13 19:05:45
109.   ToyCannon
102
Cause he's on my DT roto team:)
2006-06-13 19:06:58
110.   Bob Timmermann
105
When Johnny Estrada was 22, he was in the minors.

He "burst" on to the scene at age 25 with an OPS+ of 63!

2006-06-13 19:07:26
111.   Eric L
105 If McCann is currently cheaper and is better than Estrada, then why bring up the money thing?

Based on the stats posted earlier, they are essentially the same player except one is cheaper and has room to improve while the other one is more expensive and is 30 and is closer to decline.

2006-06-13 19:07:26
112.   Steve
I'm not sure which I'm more concerned about -- the assertion that Estrada is better than McCann or that two people believe it.
2006-06-13 19:07:29
113.   KidCuba
109 ROTO?!?!?! ECK!!! Diamond Mind Baseball...all the way....
2006-06-13 19:08:28
114.   Eric L
111 I'm proud of my run on sentence.
2006-06-13 19:09:15
115.   natepurcell
way to get lucky in that inning chan ho.
2006-06-13 19:10:11
116.   Eric L
110 Estrada "burst" onto the scene in the same way that the "young" LoDuca did.
2006-06-13 19:10:27
117.   sanchez101
Are you guys trying to argue with JoeyP? Try moving a mountain.
2006-06-13 19:10:29
118.   Steve
Dear Soon-To-Be Ex-Twin Manager Ron Gardenhire,

If you are going to start batting for people, you might as well start at Luis Rodriguez.

Best,

Steve

2006-06-13 19:10:44
119.   Bluebleeder87
115

Nomar hit a rope!

2006-06-13 19:10:59
120.   StolenMonkey86
Gameday doesn't list Gagne. Hope he takes it easy recovering.
2006-06-13 19:11:14
121.   Bluebleeder87
117

LOL!

2006-06-13 19:11:35
122.   natepurcell
119

and furry slapped it really far.

2006-06-13 19:12:30
123.   JoeyP
111. Bc its acknowledged around baseball that the Braves won last year bc of their kids. I'm just pointing out that their best prospect (McCann), didnt really improve them that much. And the other kids really havent proven to be very good.
2006-06-13 19:12:39
124.   KidCuba
Geez...I am stuck with GameDay...My two year old is watching Dora The Explorer and the wife has the other television hogged up..
2006-06-13 19:14:34
125.   natepurcell
izturis just made a throwing error in vegas. its only fitting furcal copied him.
2006-06-13 19:14:34
126.   Greg S
Enter Cesar
2006-06-13 19:14:40
127.   adg
E for Izturis in Vegas.
2006-06-13 19:15:45
128.   KidCuba
A friend and I had a long argument about who was the better defensive shortstop...Furcal or Izzy....Boy was he wrong...
2006-06-13 19:15:53
129.   Bluebleeder87
Sorry guys but watching Mike Pizza still STINGS [wiping tears as I speak]
2006-06-13 19:16:11
130.   Bluebleeder87
The curse of Michael coming up
2006-06-13 19:16:53
131.   KidCuba
129 Piazza is a puss.
2006-06-13 19:17:06
132.   Bluebleeder87
Mike Pizza is a greek god!

is that a man crush?

2006-06-13 19:17:13
133.   Greg S
128- No way to know who you had in that argument. For the record, Izturis is the better defensive shortstop and I doubt you could find a scout who would disagree.
2006-06-13 19:17:39
134.   Bob Timmermann
131

I think "puss" in that sense is frowned upon by Jon.

I'd stick with "wuss".

2006-06-13 19:17:40
135.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
The D-Backs announcers just fell all over themselves while discussing the DFA of Russ Ortiz. Made it sound heroic, how this move "sends a clear message to the fans..." Also, there was praise for Ortiz "the man."
Yeesh.
2006-06-13 19:17:42
136.   trainwreck
Everyone jumps at the bit to show Cesar's futility.
2006-06-13 19:18:11
137.   KidCuba
133 - I had Izzy, this was before the injury or the signing....
2006-06-13 19:19:46
138.   trainwreck
132
Pretty much.
2006-06-13 19:20:21
139.   Uncle Miltie
Here comes James Loney Sr.
2006-06-13 19:20:37
140.   KidCuba
138

You got a Nick Markakis jersey?

2006-06-13 19:21:32
141.   natepurcell
Should have tested Kemp.
2006-06-13 19:21:59
142.   Eric L
132 Wouldn't Piazza be more of a Roman god?
2006-06-13 19:22:33
143.   Greg S
As I was saying...
2006-06-13 19:22:39
144.   natepurcell
please play defense.
2006-06-13 19:22:44
145.   Bluebleeder87
so who's better Furcal or Izzy (wathing that play??)
2006-06-13 19:22:46
146.   Uncle Miltie
Fookie Offerman?
2006-06-13 19:22:53
147.   KidCuba
I would spin the word Greek into a play on words, but I do not want to push it on my first day.
2006-06-13 19:23:25
148.   DaveP
Lofton is brutal out there.
2006-06-13 19:23:28
149.   trainwreck
That was laughibly bad.
2006-06-13 19:23:32
150.   KidCuba
145

As of right now, Furcal (he is not coming off an injury). A year and a half ago, Izzy...

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-06-13 19:23:33
151.   Steve
Is it ironic that all the world could talk about back in March was Furcal's great defense?
2006-06-13 19:23:50
152.   natepurcell
our up the middle defense is atrocious.
2006-06-13 19:24:11
153.   Uncle Miltie
Oh man, Lofton is awful. He continues to jump at balls hit right at him. Horrible misplay by the Gold Glove All Star.
2006-06-13 19:24:28
154.   D4P
There's a reason they (well, I) call him Gaffy.
2006-06-13 19:24:33
155.   Greg S
145- As of right now, Izturis. As of anytime, Izturis.
2006-06-13 19:24:54
156.   Steve
Well, giving up bases-clearing doubles to Vinny Castilla basically signals an end to the Sele Train too.
2006-06-13 19:25:12
157.   Greg Brock
Third ball in three weeks where lofton jumps to rob a ball that hits the lower half of the fence. Good lord, somebody get that guy some depth perception.
2006-06-13 19:25:12
158.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
This is a poor start to the evening.
2006-06-13 19:25:20
159.   trainwreck
Sele's bubble got bursted by his own teammates.
2006-06-13 19:25:46
160.   JoeyP
Furcal's going to get some angry stares in the dugout.
2006-06-13 19:26:25
161.   DaveP
156 - any other center fielder in the Dodger system (A ball to major league roster) catches that ball.
2006-06-13 19:26:40
162.   Eric L
Does anyone have a legit scouting report for Izzy's time in Vegas right now?

How does the arm look? I assume everything else is okay except for rust.

2006-06-13 19:26:55
163.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
From the AP:
SAN DIEGO (AP) — Los Angeles closer Eric Gagne was placed on the 15-day disabled list on Tuesday because of stiffness in his surgically repaired pitching elbow and the Dodgers activated second baseman Jeff Kent, who had been out with a sprained left wrist.
Gagne earned his first save in nearly a year on June 6 by striking out two in a perfect ninth inning in an 8-5 victory over the New York Mets, but said afterward he wasn't 100 percent. The right-hander went on the DL retroactive to June 7.
Gagne had surgery April 7 to remove a nerve from his right elbow, his second operation in less than a year.
The nerve that was removed was the same one that was moved during a season-ending operation on June 24, 2005.
Gagne, a three-time All-Star who holds the major league record of 84 consecutive successful save opportunities, pitched a scoreless inning June 2 against Philadelphia in his first appearance of the season. His outing against the Mets was his second.
Manager Grady Little doesn't know if Gagne will be ready to be activated when he's eligible.
''We have our hopes, but we have to go by what's going on in his elbow,'' Little said. ''And right now, we don't know what's going on in that elbow. We're just trying to get him back to where he can pitch.''
2006-06-13 19:27:09
164.   natepurcell
Furcal needs to be fined 5,000 dollars for every error he makes.
2006-06-13 19:27:28
165.   Bluebleeder87
153

that play didn't have to hapen if Rafael Furcal makes the play

2006-06-13 19:28:24
166.   JoeyP
161. If thats the case, what will it take for Lofton to swallow his pride and play LF, letting Kemp play CF?
2006-06-13 19:28:24
167.   Eric L
165 Indeed, but that doesn't excuse Lofton's crappy play.
2006-06-13 19:28:40
168.   KidCuba
164

We are stuck with him. I think he was a horrible signing, but most disagree with him. Not as horrible as signing Kent an extension...

I miss Izzy to Cora.

r.

2006-06-13 19:29:14
169.   Uncle Miltie
164- at least he has range and decent instincts. He could also be drunk. Lofton doesn't have any excuse. He's not even being given errors for these misplayed flyballs. Kenny Lofton makes Tom Goodwin look like a gold glover.
2006-06-13 19:30:09
170.   Steve
165 -- But he didn't, and yet the earth still must rotate on its axis, Aaron Sele must not throw floaters to washed-up psuedo-hitters, and Kenny Lofton must catch catchable fly balls.
2006-06-13 19:30:13
171.   D4P
166
What will it take for Lofton to ride the pine and let Ethier and Kemp take their rightful positions in the outfield ahead of him?
2006-06-13 19:30:20
172.   brandesh
Is there a stat to measure unearned runs contributed to a fielder?
2006-06-13 19:30:57
173.   Greg S
171 You becoming the manager.
2006-06-13 19:31:00
174.   Greg Brock
Nobody has a more gorgeous strikeout swing than J.D. Drew.
2006-06-13 19:31:15
175.   JoeyP
Miltie if you had to pick a CF'er, which would would you pick?

Bernie Williams or Kenny Lofton?

2006-06-13 19:31:17
176.   KidCuba
For what it is worth...

Kenny's Rate2 - 95

Furcal's Rate2 - 91

2006-06-13 19:32:27
177.   KidCuba
Today, Aybar dips below .300 and stars returning back to our universe from the bizarro baseball universe.
2006-06-13 19:32:29
178.   Gagne55
If I was in Little's place, after the second error, I'd have walked onto the field and taken away Furcal's glove as a public humiliation and brought in Ramon Martinez.

Ugg. Lofton misplayed that flyball. There was no reason to leap.

2006-06-13 19:32:54
179.   D4P
Updated Least Popular Dodgers of All-Time

1. Danys Baez
2. Jeff Kent
3. "Gaffy" Furcal
4. Tom Niedenfuer

2006-06-13 19:33:14
180.   Bluebleeder87
166

AGREED

2006-06-13 19:33:27
181.   Gagne55
175- Does it mean anything that Torre chose Bernie out of those two?
2006-06-13 19:33:38
182.   KidCuba
179 Where is Jody Reed or Delino DeSheilds?
2006-06-13 19:33:51
183.   regfairfield
166 When he stops hitting .320.
2006-06-13 19:33:56
184.   trainwreck
Where's Mr. Tomko?
2006-06-13 19:34:13
185.   jasonungar05
13 million for a slap hitting error prone mid infielder coming off Knee surgery. Sweet.

Bernie's(Ned) faded out baby blue T shirt under his white sportscoat reads: T.G.F.T.Ks

(Thank God For The Kids)

2006-06-13 19:34:26
186.   Gagne55
179- I <3 Jeff Kent and most Dodger fans of 2005 feel the same way.
2006-06-13 19:34:44
187.   D4P
The Least Popular Dodger list has a very strong recency bias.
2006-06-13 19:35:09
188.   trainwreck
on the most hated list?
2006-06-13 19:35:18
189.   Greg Brock
179-
When Baez destroys my childhood, he passes Niedenfur. Oh, and you're forgetting Don Stanhouse.
2006-06-13 19:35:37
190.   sanchez101
179. darryl strawberry? carlos perez? thats a pretty short-sited list
2006-06-13 19:35:41
191.   KidCuba
186 You and the three Hillbillies left at Dodger Stadium. ;)
2006-06-13 19:36:10
192.   Bluebleeder87
178

Well considering he were's an outfielders glove, it makes perfect sense

2006-06-13 19:36:20
193.   JoeyP
181. I suppose. Although Bernie does have that "true Yankee" vibe to him. I'm just wondering who's the worst CF'er right now in the major leagues. Its hard to mention Bernie bc he doesnt play it much anymore.
2006-06-13 19:37:05
194.   Bluebleeder87
I trully hate the San Dieago Padres!!
2006-06-13 19:37:30
195.   KidCuba
193 In terms of defense, Griffey JR comes to mind.
2006-06-13 19:37:43
196.   Greg Brock
Gadzooks...Somebody get Lofton a map...Nice route Magellan.
2006-06-13 19:37:51
197.   trainwreck
Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.
2006-06-13 19:37:58
198.   Uncle Miltie
175- I'd rather have Lofton as a bench player, but neither as a CF. I'd much rather have Repko or Kemp in CF. Lofton not only has terrible instincts, but he also has a horrible arm. Lofton is a good fielding DH.

Well, Special K just did it again....

2006-06-13 19:38:24
199.   DaveP
Lofton is ridiculous. He was running to his left until he realized it was to deep center and then just waited for it to come off the base of the wall. He better hope he keeps hitting .320 for a long time.
2006-06-13 19:39:45
200.   JoeyP
Is Griffey Jr really bad now? I havent caught many Reds game to know for sure. Griffy still has an arm though right?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-06-13 19:39:45
201.   Steve
Repko has a better arm than Lofton (I have a better arm than Lofton). Not sure he's a great improvement on those routes to the ball.
2006-06-13 19:40:11
202.   Eric L
198 At least Repko athletic ability makes up for his other defensive short comings.
2006-06-13 19:41:56
203.   KidCuba
200 I do not watch a lot of Red's games, but his numbers are horrible this year, worse than Lofton's. He still makes a spectacular play here in there which ends up on BBT and allows Harold Reynolds talk him up.
2006-06-13 19:41:56
204.   Bluebleeder87
That set's up the DP
2006-06-13 19:42:32
205.   Uncle Miltie
201- Repko takes bad routes to balls, but he usually gets to them. He's an above average defender with a very good arm.

Anyone want to jump back on the Carl Crawford bandwagon (if Kemp bulks up too much and is unable to play CF adequately)?

2006-06-13 19:43:02
206.   kngoworld
Who gets the early mop-up duties today?
2006-06-13 19:43:09
207.   sanchez101
so was that an unearned run?
2006-06-13 19:43:10
208.   Bluebleeder87
What' errors do to a game
2006-06-13 19:43:21
209.   trainwreck
We need to trade the Padres for the Mariners.
2006-06-13 19:43:41
210.   Eric L
205 I thought that the defensive metrics said that Repko was about average for an outfielder.

(i'm probably wrong)

2006-06-13 19:44:02
211.   KidCuba
205 Carl Crawford as a CF, no way, he is average at best. Maybe we can keep Kemp of the Hgh.
2006-06-13 19:44:16
212.   Bob Timmermann
207

Double
Wild Pitch
Walk
Sac Fly

Looks pretty darned earned to me.

2006-06-13 19:44:19
213.   Bluebleeder87
Let's hope the bat's wake up
2006-06-13 19:44:59
214.   ninjavshippo
the wheels are really coming off now, in terms of pitching. at least with the 2006 dodger bat being a potent one, the game isn't necessarily lost yet.
2006-06-13 19:45:26
215.   Steve
Are any runs off of Aaron Sele really earned?
2006-06-13 19:45:48
216.   trainwreck
Not often your 7th batter hits .366
2006-06-13 19:46:02
217.   sanchez101
210.
2005- 107 rate1 in CF(41 games)
2006- 93 rate1 in CF(13 games)
2006-06-13 19:46:29
218.   KidCuba
The Dodgers need to trade for a pitcher, so who do ya' bums want?

I do not want to here the D-Train noise, either.

2006-06-13 19:46:36
219.   Bluebleeder87
we all know errors have alot to do with this game right?
2006-06-13 19:46:44
220.   Uncle Miltie
210- last year, Repko had a rate2 of 108 and was 3 runs above average.
2006-06-13 19:46:49
221.   kngoworld
48 pitches through 2 innings.
26 Strike.
22 Balls.

B-E-A-U-TIFUL

2006-06-13 19:47:29
222.   sanchez101
213. scoring runs against Sele i can understand, flailing against Park i dont
2006-06-13 19:47:37
223.   JoeyP
Trade Tomko to the 51's for Billingsley.
2006-06-13 19:48:47
224.   DaveP
for the attorneys out there...

If the Dodgers were to release Kenny Lofton later this year, would he be able to file a grievance via the Americans with Disabilities Act, given his lack of depth perception?

2006-06-13 19:49:04
225.   Uncle Miltie
Vin Scully on Chan Ho Park:
We were going to say the Marching and Chowder Society, but we'll say the Kim Chi Society

LOL

2006-06-13 19:49:11
226.   KidCuba
We need Billingsley and another arm.

Out with Perez/Seo/Sele.

R.

2006-06-13 19:49:13
227.   ninjavshippo
218 how about bronson arroyo?
2006-06-13 19:50:02
228.   KidCuba
227 One Cuban is more than enough...
2006-06-13 19:50:11
229.   KidCuba
227 One Cuban is more than enough...
2006-06-13 19:50:14
230.   JoeyP
If Sele deserves a mulligan, its for this game. He did have to garner 6 outs in that 1st inning. Granted the Padres arent the best offense and they are playing at Petko, however I'd give Sele a couple more turns in the rotation.

If any pitcher needs replacing at the moments its Tomko IMO.

2006-06-13 19:50:52
231.   trainwreck
Heard rumors the Braves will deal Smoltz. Lets go for him.

Guzman, Orenduff, and Ethier

2006-06-13 19:51:01
232.   Bluebleeder87
errors have alot to do with this game?? hallow!
2006-06-13 19:51:02
233.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers win 55.6% of their games. I don't see why one of the 44.4% games should be so vexatious.
2006-06-13 19:51:23
234.   Greg S
228-229 Isn't it ironic?
2006-06-13 19:51:28
235.   ninjavshippo
228 what's wrong with cubans not named castro or baez? also, tell what's wrong with a guy named after charles bronson?
2006-06-13 19:51:34
236.   Eric L
231 How about no.
2006-06-13 19:51:37
237.   Greg Brock
If, by some miracle, Chan Ho Park were to go no-no tonight, I know the headline...Unexplained Mass Suicide Rocks Southland.
2006-06-13 19:51:40
238.   KidCuba
Smoltz?

I am okay with letting Guzman go, no problem actually... But NOT for Smoltz, maybe someone younger and with more hair.

2006-06-13 19:52:42
239.   Bob Timmermann
D-Backs add to their lead on a sac fly by the "old Brian McCann".
2006-06-13 19:52:53
240.   trainwreck
Oh yeah, I forgot he is a free agent soon. Alright, there is no one to aquire.
2006-06-13 19:52:53
241.   KidCuba
The only Cuban I want is Kendry Morales.
2006-06-13 19:52:57
242.   Steve
233 -- I think the double to Castilla was the Career Grabowski Principle we've been waiting for.
2006-06-13 19:53:13
243.   JoeyP
Chan Ho has the perfecto through 3ip.
2006-06-13 19:53:46
244.   trainwreck
*acquire
2006-06-13 19:54:39
245.   Greg Brock
Ladies and Gents, I give you Kenny Lofton's arm.
2006-06-13 19:54:41
246.   Eric L
235 Can we really consider him a Cuban? Baez, Contreras, Canseco, El Duque, and Palmeiro are Cubans.

Kids born in Key West may be of Cuban heritage but I can't really consider them "Cuban".

2006-06-13 19:54:46
247.   Bluebleeder87
talk about no respect for Lofton's arm WOW
2006-06-13 19:55:46
248.   Greg S
I believe the Dodger have the longest streak of not getting shut out in the majors. I doubt it will be broken tonight.
2006-06-13 19:55:53
249.   Uncle Miltie
Anyone else have a bad feeling that Colletti might pick up Russ Ortiz?

-Former Giant
-Great makeup
-Great in the clubhouse (I'm not joking about this one, from what I've heard he's actually a good guy)
-Crafty veteran, grinder
-From LA, grew up a Dodgers fan

He's the right handed Ishii (haven't heard his name in a while).

2006-06-13 19:55:57
250.   Eric L
Isn't JD Drew the best CF currently on the roster?
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-06-13 19:56:37
251.   Bluebleeder87
247 (my own post)

if Aybar catches that, the guy is out.

2006-06-13 19:57:22
252.   ninjavshippo
jeebus. if i see russ ortiz or greg maddux anywhere near chavez ravine, i'll promptly poop my pants in protest.
2006-06-13 19:57:27
253.   Greg Brock
Drew can't play CF. I have no idea why, but he just can't. I think it has something to do with astrophysics, but, for some reason, he's not allowed to play CF.
2006-06-13 19:57:31
254.   Bob Timmermann
249
If the Dodgers picked up Russ Ortiz, I would hope some of the lawyers here would help serve on my defense team.

I hear that you can get in serious trouble for trying to blow up a baseball stadium even if you do in the off hours.

2006-06-13 19:57:36
255.   Marty
This is so sloppy of a game I may have to go watch the Lucky Louie episode I recorded.
2006-06-13 19:58:05
256.   JoeyP
David Ross is on fire.
He hit his 10th tonight.
2006-06-13 19:58:41
257.   Uncle Miltie
Bob, so you hate him even more than Frank Robinson?
2006-06-13 19:59:02
258.   Greg Brock
The Dodgers could lose 17-0, and it would be better than Lucky Louie...Trust me, I watched it and had to shower afterword.
2006-06-13 19:59:11
259.   gpellamjr
251 Your posts are very strange.
2006-06-13 19:59:24
260.   Bluebleeder87
254

you make my day alot better Bob.

2006-06-13 19:59:26
261.   Bob Timmermann
256
But the Reds lost.

Remember when the Reds were hot?

Remember when the DBacks were hot?

Remember when the Padres were hot?

Remember when the Rockies were hot?

Remember when the Astros were hot?

2006-06-13 19:59:27
262.   kngoworld
255 - Lucky Louie is even sloppier or a television show, dont waste your time.
2006-06-13 20:00:04
263.   ninjavshippo
254 i can think of no finer cause to spend my pro-bono hours on (albeit as a lawyer in training)....
2006-06-13 20:00:15
264.   Greg Brock
Remember when Dyan Cannon was hot?
2006-06-13 20:00:51
265.   natepurcell
Loftons best game of the year!
2006-06-13 20:01:44
266.   Scanman33
249-Unfortunately, the same thing crossed my mind as I saw the move cross the screen on the ticker.
2006-06-13 20:01:45
267.   Uncle Miltie
That's why he's our starting CF
2006-06-13 20:01:49
268.   JoeyP
Remember when Britney Spears was hot?
2006-06-13 20:02:27
269.   Eric L
265 His best play of the game might be the little show he gave the umpire. He was begging for the safe call (though it wasn't that close).
2006-06-13 20:03:06
270.   ninjavshippo
Lofton is not going to win any (kemp) fans today. I think he's being somewhat unfairly roasted, but he really shouldn't be the everyday starter.
2006-06-13 20:03:26
271.   natepurcell
So will we soon have a ethier,drew,kemp outfield?
2006-06-13 20:03:33
272.   Greg S
We should trade Nomar! Sit Kenny! DFA Saenz!
Any other guys ripping it up that we should dump?
2006-06-13 20:03:38
273.   Goozmani
chan ho looks good so far.
2006-06-13 20:04:43
274.   ninjavshippo
i can't wait for chad's first start. only because if he falters (understandably), this place very well could implode on itself.
2006-06-13 20:04:51
275.   KidCuba
Lofton should be the backup pinch-runner (for when Olmedo gets on after a pinch hit. Drew in Center, I remember him and Bradley having a beef last year over who was playing CF. I remember MoonStar, errr, Drew mention CF was easier on his body.

Kemp in LF and Ethier in RF.

2006-06-13 20:05:10
276.   Uncle Miltie
I love how Charley Steiner thinks it's a rarity when Lofton grounds into a DP. He's only done it 8 times this year.
2006-06-13 20:05:11
277.   Louis in SF
For those of you on this site who want to push Izturis of the roster once he gets back, I only site the Furcal performance in the first inning.
2006-06-13 20:05:35
278.   Greg Brock
If you have Saenz and Lofton on the bench, you're a deep, solid team. If they're starting any significant period of time...Not so much.
2006-06-13 20:05:41
279.   JoeyP
It really comes down to hitting either Lofton/Ethier versus right handers. I can understand if Grits wants to play Lofton, but he really should be playing LF if he does.
2006-06-13 20:05:41
280.   Steve
272 baez and tomko
2006-06-13 20:07:28
281.   Bluebleeder87
it looks like this isn't our night guys! geez did you see that?
2006-06-13 20:07:31
282.   Greg Brock
Come on Lofton, catch a ball. That was horrible...Kidding, kidding.
2006-06-13 20:07:45
283.   JoeyP
The ball sure is finding Lofton tonite.
2006-06-13 20:09:05
284.   Uncle Miltie
I'm not a big Ethier either, but he's a good defensive left fielder and could probably match Lofton's production.

New lineup (until Crawford is acquired)
Fookie SS
Aybar 3B
Nomar 1B
Drew RF
Kemp CF
Kant 2B
Ethier LF
Martin C

2006-06-13 20:09:51
285.   gpellamjr
I didn't realize this, but listening to the Padres tv guys, I know now that the Padres are the greatest team that ever played. In the last inning, they got a double play off of one of the fastest men in the game! Also, Cameron is the fastest guy ever from 1st to 3rd.
2006-06-13 20:09:53
286.   KidCuba
Any of you guys study Win Probabilities?

According to WP.....James Lofton is the third biggest contributor to the team this year...

Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

2006-06-13 20:10:20
287.   Greg S
We need a pitcher or two who can pitch to an ERA of 5.00 instead on 9.00 and we'd be fine. Shouldn't be that hard.
2006-06-13 20:10:21
288.   natepurcell
Immanuel Kant?
2006-06-13 20:10:26
289.   ninjavshippo
What would we be willing to give up for crawford? realistically speaking...
2006-06-13 20:10:52
290.   KidCuba
284 STOP asking for Crawford, you might get what you want! Do you see him as our CF?

R.

2006-06-13 20:11:11
291.   gpellamjr
Apparently, with two walks and a sac fly, Mike Piazza has officially not had a plate appearance tonight.
2006-06-13 20:11:31
292.   Greg Brock
You do not try to score off Kenny Lofton...Got that?
2006-06-13 20:12:01
293.   Steve
James Lofton?
2006-06-13 20:12:25
294.   gpellamjr
Lofton caught a ball in CF, how cute.
2006-06-13 20:12:53
295.   KidCuba
293 Kenny that is....maybe I need to stop smoking my pipe.
2006-06-13 20:13:02
296.   ninjavshippo
Grrr.. even more than the giants, i hate losing (potentially) to the padres.
2006-06-13 20:13:50
297.   KidCuba
For those interested, the Dodgers Win Probabilities, through Sunday...

http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Dodgers

2006-06-13 20:13:59
298.   Uncle Miltie
288- not a typo :)
290- is that a bad thing? Crawford is an excellent defender and has really turned it on since mid May now that's he's recovered from his wrist injury. Crawford is not your typical speed guy. He's hit 8 HRs so far this year, and should eventually hit 25+ a year.
2006-06-13 20:14:42
299.   KidCuba
Does anybody wish we had Edwin Jackson now? We could call him up, pitch him for 3 games, get him beat around and then send him back down.
2006-06-13 20:15:26
300.   Marty
Haven't the Dodgers gotten slaughtered in San Diego the last few years?
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-06-13 20:15:35
301.   ninjavshippo
297 wow, steep drop there in the bullpen.
2006-06-13 20:15:47
302.   Steve
286 - baez is close to dead last in that category but I'm supposed to believe he's mariano rivera
2006-06-13 20:16:06
303.   Uncle Miltie
My Cousin bails out Sele with a weak groundball
2006-06-13 20:16:19
304.   Bluebleeder87
LET'S SCORE SOME RUNS!!
2006-06-13 20:16:26
305.   KidCuba
298 - I could be wrong, but his regular position has not been CF and when he did play it last year, he was below average.

Also, the question would be, who do we send to Tampa Bay?

2006-06-13 20:16:32
306.   regfairfield
297 I wouldn't be surprised if Lofton's win probablity was great, but it's a luck based stat like RBIs.

I really only like using it for relief pitchers.

2006-06-13 20:17:10
307.   Greg Brock
300- The Dodgers have been slaughtered in San Diego and Montreal (not anymore, thank Jeebus) for twenty years.
2006-06-13 20:17:26
308.   ninjavshippo
306
i'm not familiar with WPs. how is it based on luck?
2006-06-13 20:17:53
309.   KidCuba
301 Steep drop from our first two starters, to the rest....
2006-06-13 20:18:28
310.   Steve
299 yes I wish we had Edwin Jackson
2006-06-13 20:19:07
311.   KidCuba
306 - I agree, but it is fun to study....
2006-06-13 20:19:08
312.   natepurcell
Every Dodger is pissing me off right now.
2006-06-13 20:19:51
313.   JoeyP
Contrary to popular belief, Chan Ho Park actually had a couple of really good seasons with the Dodgers.
2006-06-13 20:19:55
314.   regfairfield
308 Much like RBIs, you need to happen to get your hit in a big situation. It's a good indication of how clutch a player is, but not any real indication of actual ability.
2006-06-13 20:20:10
315.   KidCuba
312 Do not feel bad Jody Reed and Delino DeShields still piss me off....
2006-06-13 20:20:22
316.   Uncle Miltie
Even Aybar?
2006-06-13 20:21:01
317.   gpellamjr
JD Drew strikes out for the 80th consecutive times.
2006-06-13 20:21:04
318.   natepurcell
316

We'll see after what he does this AB.

2006-06-13 20:21:15
319.   ninjavshippo
even martin?
2006-06-13 20:21:15
320.   Greg S
Lets go finger blister (clap clap, clap clap clap)
2006-06-13 20:21:26
321.   KidCuba
Aybar? Who is an Aybar lover? I am telling you, he has been playing in a bizarro universe, the guy is not that good...NO matter what Vinny says.
2006-06-13 20:21:39
322.   Bluebleeder87
312

I hear you!

2006-06-13 20:21:55
323.   JoeyP
If WP are luck based stats, then wouldnt Nomar be like the best player in the major leagues? I heard the other day he was like 14-17 from the 7th inning on. Something crazy like that.
2006-06-13 20:22:42
324.   Bluebleeder87
321

I think your wrong IMO

2006-06-13 20:22:58
325.   natepurcell
321

dsfan, uncle miltie, and many more.

2006-06-13 20:23:50
326.   Bluebleeder87
Weit for some pitches MATT!!!
2006-06-13 20:25:00
327.   JoeyP
I'll start believing Aybar isnt any good when he actually performs badly. For a young player ( only 23), to come up and OPS .880+ for his first 240ABs in the majors isnt something to laugh at especially for a middle infielder. He is playing better than his minor league numbers would suggest, but there are exceptions to the rule like that that come along every so often.
2006-06-13 20:25:05
328.   Uncle Miltie
321- are you related to Bill Mueller by any chance?
2006-06-13 20:25:31
329.   Uncle Miltie
Kemp walks!
2006-06-13 20:25:34
330.   KidCuba
There you go Team Aybar, your boy is now sub .300......The guy had over .350 BABIP during his first 175 at-bats, nobody keeps that kind of luck going!

Look at Crawford's career BABIP numbers, that is why I am a bit concerned....he has been VERY lucky...

2006-06-13 20:25:39
331.   natepurcell
That was very un-Francouer like right there for Matt.
2006-06-13 20:26:15
332.   Greg Brock
Well, at least Russeldinho showed up tonight.
2006-06-13 20:26:19
333.   Uncle Miltie
That definitely hit the ground
2006-06-13 20:26:21
334.   Greg S
321- Your saying enough weird things to worry me but I'll bite on this one.. what are you talking about? Aybar hit .326 in limited time last year and hit .300 in his time this year. Every single commentator believes this guy is a very legit hitter. How do you see any reason to believe he can't?
2006-06-13 20:26:29
335.   Bluebleeder87
our golden boy in the clutch!!!
2006-06-13 20:27:21
336.   JoeyP
Russ Martin breaks up the shut out.
Good job Russ.
2006-06-13 20:27:41
337.   KidCuba
334 Look at his minor league numbers and his BABIP numbers while in the big leagues... It has been a lucky run, a small statistical sample.

Do not get me wrong, I hope he pans out....I have him on my simulation team.

2006-06-13 20:28:01
338.   ninjavshippo
331
please, no francouer comparisons.. have you seen his line this year?

.249/.256/.450, 54Ks, 4BBs.

maybe being free-swinging isn't such a good idea for our youngster..

2006-06-13 20:29:03
339.   KidCuba
334 Do you think I am weird? Or am I bringing unpopular views to Dodger Thoughts? Geez, did I get a bad rep. on my first day?
2006-06-13 20:29:34
340.   Bluebleeder87
was that a change up? wow
2006-06-13 20:29:48
341.   Greg S
337- You are the first person I have ever heard doubt that he can hit at this level. So I take you doubt Kemp's ability to hit too, right? And Martin's ability as a catcher?
2006-06-13 20:30:23
342.   natepurcell
339

I don't think you're weird. You have ver reasonable justifications for your opinions.

2006-06-13 20:31:54
343.   JoeyP
330. You may be right but it doesnt really matter if Aybar hits .300 or not. Batting average will probably fluctuate. What Aybar has shown is good patience and he's been willing to take his walks. The power may develop too. But I dont really care what his batting average is as long as his OPS is around .830+. Anything over .800 for a 2nd basemen is pretty good.
2006-06-13 20:32:11
344.   Bluebleeder87
Seo in
2006-06-13 20:32:12
345.   Greg S
339- I have no idea if you're weird and you are certinaly entitled to contrary opinions. You've just said several things that make me scatch my head. You're certainly entitled.
2006-06-13 20:32:21
346.   KidCuba
341 That is a slippery slope my friend...DO not drag Kemp and Martin into this.

I think Martin will be an above average catcher offensively, but not a star. Really, I see him being a Mike S. type.

As for Kemp, lets see if he has been playing a hot hand, but his numbers in the minors have been strong. His EQA when adjusted to MLB levels for his MILB career are impressive, for a man his age.

2006-06-13 20:32:57
347.   Greg Brock
I'm not totally sold on Aybar either. He could be very good, or he could be an average major leaguer. But he has had good success (granted, small sample size).
2006-06-13 20:34:03
348.   KidCuba
343 I am willing to bet his OPS will be NO where near .800 at the end of the season, or for the peak of his career. I am willing to speculate he will be a career utility man.
2006-06-13 20:34:37
349.   JoeyP
Crawford's BABIP might be higher than league average bc of his speed. He's making contact but beating out hits that others would make outs on. I wouldnt worry about Crawford's BABIP until he gets past 29 and begins losing a step. That being said, I doubt I'd want him anyways, but its not bc he's been a lucky player. Its more his lack of discipline and marginal power.
2006-06-13 20:35:09
350.   Andrew Shimmin
346- You're not saying Aybar can't hit, right? Just that he's not as good as he's been? I agree with that. But I still like him.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-06-13 20:35:43
351.   Bluebleeder87
has anybody notice that Grittle has his hat off?? that's a first
2006-06-13 20:35:51
352.   KidCuba
349 Good Analysis.
2006-06-13 20:36:22
353.   Bluebleeder87
dose he know about our bad fortune with the Padres?
2006-06-13 20:36:59
354.   JoeyP
348. I dont disagree with you. It all depends on if Aybar develops 15-20HR power, kinda like Marcus Giles. Aybar isnt very fast, and his BABIP is high, so I wont disagree with you that he has gotten lucky so far. Hopefully he develops power to make up for when his luck runs out.
2006-06-13 20:37:12
355.   gpellamjr
351 Good Analysis.
2006-06-13 20:37:27
356.   Xeifrank
Penny & Lowe and pray for snow. Dodgers are in great need of Chillingsley.
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 20:38:04
357.   KidCuba
350 I think Aybar will be a solid utility guy. I just have no illusions of him being a .800 OPS guy or .280ish EQA guy.

Let me say this, I love the Dodgers, with all my heart. Hell, I used to cry when they lost, as a kid. Hell, I even cried when Steve Finley hit the grand slam..I had my newborn daughter in my arms.

I am just very CAUTIOUS with rookies and prospects.

2006-06-13 20:39:06
358.   KidCuba
Geez..I have caused a stir within the Aybar Fan Club!!!
2006-06-13 20:39:41
359.   KidCuba
354 To develop Giles like power you need HgH.
2006-06-13 20:39:47
360.   JoeyP
Wow.
Kubel hit a walk off Grand Slam in the 12th after the Red Sox had taken a 2-1 lead.
2006-06-13 20:39:48
361.   Bluebleeder87
what can we say to defend Seo?????
2006-06-13 20:40:30
362.   gpellamjr
I hope Tony Gwynn is embarrassed to be sitting in a booth with that guy (and I don't mean Lasorda).
2006-06-13 20:40:46
363.   Greg Brock
If people don't want Crawford, that's understandable, but let's not pretend that he's not a very good player. At twenty four, with what he's done and where his career can go, we'd be sitting here coming up with nicknames for him if he were a Dodger.
2006-06-13 20:41:03
364.   JoeyP
359. It still not tested for ;)
Can Bob make a Mike Cameron cycle alert? Isnt that a HR, Triple, and Double so far?
2006-06-13 20:41:10
365.   KidCuba
KUBEL! Yes another member of my sim. team.
2006-06-13 20:41:23
366.   Bluebleeder87
Billz is in (Perez & Seo???)
2006-06-13 20:41:29
367.   gpellamjr
357 I understand your point, but what you don't understand is that Aybar and Kemp are going to be the two greatest players of all time.
2006-06-13 20:42:22
368.   KidCuba
363 A good player yes, but do we need another OF'er. I say we need a legit starting pitcher.

Whoever mentioned Bronson Arroyo, good call..I doubt the Reds would trade him. They probbaly need pitching.

2006-06-13 20:42:29
369.   Andrew Shimmin
Is batter BABIP a useful stat? Won't all .300 hitters without much power hit +.300 BABIP?
2006-06-13 20:43:04
370.   KidCuba
367 I hope so!
2006-06-13 20:43:22
371.   Steve
You are the first person I have ever heard doubt that he can hit at this level.

Yesterday I was told there was only one known Aybar fan in the universe.

2006-06-13 20:43:24
372.   Bluebleeder87
I don't wanna be a jerk but alot of you play FANTASY BALL don't you?
2006-06-13 20:44:25
373.   gpellamjr
372 Wow! What a jerky thing to say.
2006-06-13 20:44:28
374.   JoeyP
In theory most of them would probably have speed, which Aybar doesnt have.

Not many slow guys, that dont have much power, manage to hit .300. I can think of Tony Gwynn. I cant think of anyone else.

2006-06-13 20:44:47
375.   Greg S
357- I think that caution over the Rookies is wise and even rare around here. That said, Aybar can hit. Like Saenz can hit. Doesn't mean he'll be an All-Star or go even remain a Dodger. But I don't care what stats you show me, he can hit and is not playing over his head. Of that I feel very confident.
2006-06-13 20:44:52
376.   KidCuba
369 I like to look at BABIP for "hot" hitters, or guys doing things outside of their norm during a season.

I also like to look at it in regards to pitching. For example, I believe batters had a very low BABIP vs. Tomko
in the early season....pointing to some luck.

2006-06-13 20:45:28
377.   Andrew Shimmin
There is only one Aybar, and Muhammad is his prophet.
2006-06-13 20:45:43
378.   Greg Brock
368-Too many teams "think" they're in it to get good starting pitching right now. Have to wait until July for a good two or three starter.
2006-06-13 20:45:56
379.   Steve
372 -- You mean the game that overvalues stolen bases, wins, saves, and ERA?
2006-06-13 20:46:31
380.   Bluebleeder87
please don't take this the wrong way, I just don't see the game the way you do
2006-06-13 20:47:05
381.   KidCuba
375 We then just disagree, but I hope you are right, and I am wrong, and if you are right, I hope he stays with the Dodgers..

HEY, I do NOT play Fantasy Ball, I play Sim. ball..

2006-06-13 20:47:07
382.   Andrew Shimmin
376- I understand pitcher BABIP is useful, but I'm not sure it translates. I've seen batter BABIP used before, but not enough to know if it's good for anything.
2006-06-13 20:47:41
383.   natepurcell
377

haha.

2006-06-13 20:47:42
384.   gpellamjr
380 Who are you talking to?
2006-06-13 20:48:24
385.   Greg Brock
KidCuba/Blubleeder....FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! Stick with the left hook to the face Cuba, I hear he's a bleeder. Plus, KidCuba is such a boxing name.
2006-06-13 20:48:59
386.   Jon Weisman
Just out of curiosity, are any of the people calling Aybar lucky buying into the case I made for Odalis being due for better luck, based on his off-the-charts .395 BABIP allowed.

I'm not commenting one way or another on Aybar, just wondering if people were using BABIP both ways.

2006-06-13 20:49:39
387.   KidCuba
385 LOL! I am boxing writer.....
2006-06-13 20:51:05
388.   KidCuba
386 I was thinking Odalis was unlucky, due to BABIP, but then I read about his latest jerk move at deadspin and now think it is bad karma.
2006-06-13 20:51:23
389.   JoeyP
I'm using BABIP in both respects.
Aybar due for worse luck.
OP due for better luck.
2006-06-13 20:51:47
390.   Greg S
386- I am buying into Odalis being due for better luck...
As soon as he retires.
2006-06-13 20:52:38
391.   KidCuba
My neighbor dated Odalis, she has some very good Odalis/Yhency stories...
2006-06-13 20:53:00
392.   natepurcell
BABIP doesnt apply to pitchers who do not throw anything but 85mph beachballs.
2006-06-13 20:53:06
393.   Greg S
389- Great. You take Perez and I'll take Aybar.
2006-06-13 20:53:13
394.   Greg Brock
Odalis did get better luck...Hometown Buffet just lowered their prices.
2006-06-13 20:53:45
395.   Andrew Shimmin
386- I'm mulling over buying into the Aybar is lucky because of his BABIP, but I'm fully on board your Odalis is unlucky because of his. He isn't that good, even luck-neutral, but I do think you're right.
2006-06-13 20:54:03
396.   natepurcell
391

was your neighbor the hooker that Oh, Dallas went to in the Dominican when his mother was ill?

2006-06-13 20:54:33
397.   Steve
Odalis is sure unlucky for a guy with a 4-2 record.
2006-06-13 20:54:34
398.   KidCuba
So much for what I know....I thought Seo would be a fine addition to the pitching staff...
2006-06-13 20:55:15
399.   Bluebleeder87
384

not you that's for sure, I'm just glad my baseball innosence is intact.

2006-06-13 20:55:53
400.   KidCuba
396 Nah, she works for FoxSports... I guess Fox Sports had a call-girl service for Dodger players last year.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-06-13 20:55:57
401.   gpellamjr
What do you know? Grittle has his hat back on!
2006-06-13 20:56:07
402.   Jon Weisman
Unless I'm missing something, 396 crosses the line for this site.
2006-06-13 20:57:20
403.   KidCuba
402 I think I have stirred things up here. I did not know Aybar was soooo deeply beloved on this forum.
2006-06-13 20:57:20
404.   natepurcell
402 was a joke. I guess it wasn't funny. I'll behave and not say that anymore.
2006-06-13 20:57:48
405.   Bluebleeder87
384

or are you gonna come up with "#" now?? to back you up???

2006-06-13 20:58:22
406.   natepurcell
Seo is injured. Billingsley should be called up now.
2006-06-13 20:58:34
407.   KidCuba
Geez, this is fun,I hope I can join you 'gents more often.
2006-06-13 21:00:07
408.   Greg S
403- Had nothing to do with Aybar.
2006-06-13 21:00:10
409.   gpellamjr
405 I have no idea what you're talking about. I wish I did.
2006-06-13 21:00:12
410.   KidCuba
Billngsley, I hope the young man is ready. I want to see the kid, trust me, I know he has great stuff, but man, he needs more seasoning.

If he comes up, do you think the Dodgers will give him a spot in the rotation for the entire year?

If not, I think it is a waste.

2006-06-13 21:00:34
411.   natepurcell
Laroche homers again.
2006-06-13 21:01:25
412.   underdog
Well, I just got back from a writing workshop and... well, this isn't good is it? So what happens to the Dodgers exactly when they face the Padres fairly weak lineup and Chan Ho Park? It seems like they become this different, incompetent team.

Also, is that true - Seo was injured?

2006-06-13 21:02:02
413.   natepurcell
and it doesnt look like a cheapee one too. on gameday, its about 3 cm behind the left field fence!
2006-06-13 21:02:13
414.   underdog
If you kids don't behave I'm going to turn this blog around right now!
2006-06-13 21:02:17
415.   Bluebleeder87
Let's score some runs Dodgers!
2006-06-13 21:02:52
416.   gpellamjr
412 I think Grittle just failed to warm somebody up, so he had Seo go out to warm up and pretend to get hurt.
2006-06-13 21:03:33
417.   KidCuba
Was LaRoche's homerun in Vegas?
2006-06-13 21:03:59
418.   Greg S
As much as I have praised Aybar here tonight, I do think he is the best canidate among the rookis to be traded. We have Laroche in the long run at 3rd and Kent is likely to be at 2nd for a while. Aybar should have some real value to somebody. Maybe packaged with Izturis we can get some pitching.
2006-06-13 21:04:06
419.   natepurcell
in 3ABs tonight, laroche has seen 22 pitches.
2006-06-13 21:04:22
420.   gpellamjr
I'm gonna go watch my Simpsons Season 3 DVD... "Lisa it's your birthday, dah dah dah dah dah..."
2006-06-13 21:05:03
421.   natepurcell
417

yes. so it should de-value it by .5854874 of a run.

2006-06-13 21:05:07
422.   underdog
Seo did, I mean, so did Sele pitch that poorly or was he mostly Furcal'd in the early going?
2006-06-13 21:05:38
423.   Bluebleeder87
414

agreed

2006-06-13 21:05:46
424.   Steve
OK, so this game is boring and pointless -- new game. Let's create the Jorge Julio Ex-Closer Pool. Everybody pick the day when Jorge Julio will lose the closer's spot to another random ex-middle reliever (my vote -- last year's "Next Dominant Closer Flavor Of The Month" Brandon Lyon). The winner gets a Danys Baez autographed bus ticket to Vegas.
2006-06-13 21:06:20
425.   KidCuba
418We agree on that Greg. Package Aybar (a la A. Perez with Bradley)and get some value. I am not sure what kind of pitcher we can get and I would try to avoid shipping of Izturis.
2006-06-13 21:06:31
426.   Greg S
422 - A little of each. He was hit pretty hard.
2006-06-13 21:07:16
427.   Andrew Shimmin
Anybody want to sell me on hitter BABIP? Aybar doesn't hit many HRs, and he doesn't strike out that much. In order to hit .300, he'd pretty much have to have a fairly high BABIP. My understanding of pitcher BABIP as an indication of luck is that, because there's such a thing as a league average BABIP, it should more or less even out over time, for each pitcher. When it's high, that represents either stiffer competition than usual, or worse luck. But with individual hitters, the good ones (who don't hit enough HRs to skew their numbers back down) will always have higher BABIPs and the bad ones will have worse.

The line drive/fly ball/ground ball break downs are a better indication of luck based on skill set, aren't they? I don't know where to find those.

2006-06-13 21:07:39
428.   Marty
Goodness. You guys were right. Lucky Louie was really bad. I'm going to give it one more chance.
2006-06-13 21:08:10
429.   Greg S
425- Then what the heck are you going to do with him? He's not moving to the outfield and he's too good to be on the bench.
2006-06-13 21:08:46
430.   KidCuba
427 You can find most those numbers at fangraphs.com or thehardballtimes.com
2006-06-13 21:10:42
431.   Greg S
No no no. Bad rookie.
2006-06-13 21:11:09
432.   Bluebleeder87
Kemps mid section still turns way to quick for an off speach pitch
2006-06-13 21:11:10
433.   KidCuba
429 Let him ride the pine this year, who knows if Jeff Kent's body holds up. After all, Kent is just coming off of a stint on the DL and have somewhat of a subpar year. I know Izzy does not want to play 2B, but maybe Manny Mota can persuade him (Why the hell do they always mention Mota talking to the Latino players...)...

I would try to package Guzman and Aybar together. Some team might still buy into the fool's gold that is Guzman.

2006-06-13 21:11:47
434.   Greg Brock
Dear Bison,

You're going to see a steady diet of curveballs for the rest of the year. Please lay off. Sit fastball, and pray. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Dodger Fans

2006-06-13 21:11:53
435.   trainwreck
If the Padres destroy Odalis that may force a Billingsley callup.
2006-06-13 21:13:07
436.   Greg S
Whos a good rookie? Yes you are! You're a good good rookie.
2006-06-13 21:13:09
437.   KidCuba
[please excuse all typos and grammatical errors...I am a horrible typist.]

OK, so I take it back, Aybar is back above .300, what the hell do I know????

2006-06-13 21:14:05
438.   natepurcell
437

to be fair, that was a lucky hit :)

2006-06-13 21:14:23
439.   KidCuba
I like Martin, a lot....a lot....a lot... Better question, which has been debated already on this site, what the heck do they do with Dioner.

Also, does anyone else feel Dinoer needs to fix that snaggle tooth?

2006-06-13 21:14:56
440.   Bluebleeder87
431

you mean no no no bad Cruz Jr. :o)

2006-06-13 21:15:26
441.   KidCuba
Remember when Jose Cruz Jr. was hot?
2006-06-13 21:15:31
442.   Greg S
439- Well unless he can lean to pitch, you put him in that package you're wrapping up.
2006-06-13 21:15:52
443.   natepurcell
Colletti on the pitchers available on the trade market:

"In general, there's nobody available that intrigues me enough," said Colletti. "That's across the board."

2006-06-13 21:16:21
444.   KidCuba
Furcal bothers me, he reminds me of a Puerto Rican kid that used to beat me up in the 6th grade.
2006-06-13 21:17:52
445.   KidCuba
Navarro, Guzman, and Aybar....some GM would bite for that package.
2006-06-13 21:18:08
446.   Greg Brock
Little grounder to first...BEHIND THE BAG AND IT GETS BY GONZALEZ! IN COMES AYBAR AND THE DODGERS WIN!...Sorry, Vinny flashback there.
2006-06-13 21:19:03
447.   Greg S
Somewhere right now, 45 little children are crying.
2006-06-13 21:20:48
448.   Andrew Shimmin
Well, at least that doesn't affect Odalis's BABIP.
2006-06-13 21:20:53
449.   natepurcell
How is Odalis this bad?
2006-06-13 21:21:00
450.   Jon Weisman
-ducks-
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-06-13 21:21:09
451.   Steve
Billingsley must be coming up. Suddenly, this game gets more interesting.
2006-06-13 21:21:19
452.   Bluebleeder87
Perez has to go!! wow!!
2006-06-13 21:22:03
453.   Bluebleeder87
Billz please!!
2006-06-13 21:22:10
454.   Midwest Blue
DFA, DFA, DFA!!
2006-06-13 21:22:19
455.   Greg Brock
Oh, Uncle Miltie, whither Odalis Perez?
2006-06-13 21:22:29
456.   Greg S
Maybe some good can come of this game after all.
2006-06-13 21:22:45
457.   Midwest Blue
(That was for OP, Seo, and Sele)
2006-06-13 21:22:58
458.   Andrew Shimmin
C'mon Roberts, make it back to back.
2006-06-13 21:23:06
459.   KidCuba
Man, they should have tried to trade him to the Omar's Latin American Stars, errr, the New York Mets.
2006-06-13 21:23:39
460.   Greg Brock
Maybe Mr. Timmerman can double up on Perez effigies while he's down in the effigy district.
2006-06-13 21:24:20
461.   Steve
They're hitting that excellent changeup. I wonder how they know it's coming.
2006-06-13 21:24:38
462.   Bluebleeder87
well atleat NOT LET CAMERON HIT FOR THE CYCLE!!
2006-06-13 21:24:44
463.   Midwest Blue
Billingly and who? We need two.
2006-06-13 21:24:57
464.   KidCuba
Ned get on the phone to Omar and offer Aybar/Guzman/Navarro/Perez for Wright and Glavine.

Just tell him you are taking the last anglos off of his hands.

2006-06-13 21:25:09
465.   Greg S
Cameron has to somehow avoid hitting a home run off Odalis
2006-06-13 21:25:41
466.   fawnkyj
Please Ned just release Odalis!
2006-06-13 21:26:10
467.   trainwreck
Yeah, keep em coming.
2006-06-13 21:26:11
468.   Midwest Blue
That's one way to deny him the cycle.
2006-06-13 21:26:32
469.   Greg Brock
Hi, I'm Odalis Perez, and having Dodger fans hate me is not enough...I must walk Cameron, and hit Vlad in the head...Then my Southland hatred will be complete.
2006-06-13 21:27:13
470.   KidCuba
Seriously, maybe the Mets would take Odalis off of our hands. I would take Brian Bannister or that Cuban kid they have pitching lately.
2006-06-13 21:27:32
471.   Jon Weisman
I will say that when Nomo was going through his struggles in 2004, you really felt for him. With Erickson and Perez, I feel nothing.
2006-06-13 21:27:50
472.   Midwest Blue
Too bad Lance Carter isn't still up, this game could hit 20 runs.
2006-06-13 21:28:19
473.   Greg Brock
If you think Los Mets would trade Soler for Perez, you are, ahem, well, you can finish the sentence with myriad mean things.
2006-06-13 21:28:23
474.   natepurcell
no one is going to take Odalis and his contract.
2006-06-13 21:28:24
475.   KidCuba
Maybe Odalis is coming off the 'roids.
2006-06-13 21:28:28
476.   Uncle Miltie
443- I guess that means no Russ Ortiz, thank god.

Jon, I remember nate mentioning Odalis went to the Dominican to visit some of the ladies of the night. I thought it was pretty funny, maybe he should have used a different term. Like, "he went to the Dominican for a little tune up" or "to fix his mechanics".

Now everybody hates Odalis.

2006-06-13 21:28:49
477.   Disabled List
If the D-Backs can DFA Ortiz and eat that huge contract he has, Ned and Frank should be able to cowboy up and give the Goo Tub his walking papers.
2006-06-13 21:29:03
478.   Greg S
So if Odalis is in there now, he can't make his next start... heeeyyy. Either Mousey (Gurnick) got it wrong or Grittle lied to him!
2006-06-13 21:29:04
479.   Bob Timmermann
471

Jon has become comfortably numb.

Should I start selling effigies on the Griddle or should I just use eBay?

2006-06-13 21:29:09
480.   underdog
Yeah.

Um.

Perez.

Impressive tonight, eh?

MM-hmm.

Yup.

2006-06-13 21:29:26
481.   KidCuba
You guys understimate Omar.......

You give him Odalis and one of our young guys for Soler and a TBA player, Omar might bite.

2006-06-13 21:29:27
482.   natepurcell
471

Nomo was a warrior. Odalis is a fat tub of goo who denies children of going to Dodger games.

2006-06-13 21:29:52
483.   Jon Weisman
LaRoche's OPS is 2.054 right now.
2006-06-13 21:30:03
484.   Uncle Miltie
Please Ned just release Odalis!
Only if he takes Tomko and Seo with him.
2006-06-13 21:30:06
485.   underdog
I feel something. Not hatred. Just depression.
2006-06-13 21:30:56
486.   Greg Brock
Not everybody Miltie. You still think he's the bees knees, right? Or at least a serviceable starter (see, Nate could have gone with the "serviceable" joke).
2006-06-13 21:31:27
487.   natepurcell
LaRoche's OPS is 2.054 right now.

small sample size :)

2006-06-13 21:31:58
488.   Greg S
481- He's been offered to the Mets. They did not bite, nip or even respond. That was before he started embarrasing himself nightly.
2006-06-13 21:32:00
489.   Jon Weisman
One inning tonight doesn't preclude Odalis from making his next start, but I do think it means he won't.
2006-06-13 21:32:12
490.   natepurcell
bees knees

hahahaha. bees knees. hahahaha.

2006-06-13 21:32:14
491.   Bluebleeder87
479

Maybe we've all become "numb" to OP

2006-06-13 21:32:20
492.   KidCuba
Broxton used to be a starter, but I am sure that is out of the picture. Baez is grooming him on how to blow saves..
2006-06-13 21:32:42
493.   underdog
I was just watching my TiVo of the Brazil Croatia game and couldn't help childishly tittering that the Brazilians have a player named "Caca."

Then I watched Odalis Perez pitch that inning and thought we have a player ostensibly named Caca.

2006-06-13 21:33:37
494.   KidCuba
488 Wait....El Duque will implode, eventually... Maybe if Odalis can throw a few quality innings here and there...
2006-06-13 21:33:43
495.   Greg Brock
479-Bob, I say a two-for-one Perez/Colletti "Fire" sale. We will not be undersold, no good offer rejected. Bad Credit? No Credit? No problem, at Bob Timmerman's Effigies 'R' Us.
2006-06-13 21:34:14
496.   Jon Weisman
Look out below - Cararra pitched 3 1/3 hitless innings tonight with five strikeouts.

They could call him up just as he's wearing out his arm for the 20th time.

2006-06-13 21:34:59
497.   Bob Timmermann
Except, he's Kaka and the accent is on the second syllable.
2006-06-13 21:35:15
498.   Greg S
489- Jon, Odalis needs to go to Vegas. Not the team but to the casinos. Apparently he is due for an amazing run of luck.
2006-06-13 21:35:17
499.   underdog
Uh oh, Izturis made an error tonight in that game, though. It's contagious!
2006-06-13 21:37:02
500.   Disabled List
First we'll use Penny
then we'll use Lowe
Then an off day
followed by snow
Back will come Penny
followed by Lowe
And followed
we hope
by two days of snow.

(Props to whoever came up with that first.)

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2006-06-13 21:37:05
501.   underdog
497 Yes, I did say I was being childish. I just wanted it to be caca. That's the level my mind is at tonight. watching Old Dallas didn't help.
2006-06-13 21:37:05
502.   Jon Weisman
Sorry - just noticed the current line score in L.V:

Colorado Springs 3 1 0
Las Vegas 4 11 1

2006-06-13 21:37:26
503.   Bob Timmermann
My debate now is to buy a replica Team Croatia jersey which is a red and white checkerboard pattern or a Team Togo jersey, which is yellow.
2006-06-13 21:37:33
504.   KidCuba
Seriously......

I throw Odalis out there 2 more games, as a starter. If he can turn it around, even a little, MAYBE, we can trade him. If not, you have to decide what to do with him.

The need for pitching can cause GM's to make foolish moves. I would take ANYONE for Perez, as long as we can rid the team of some of that salary. Is he signed for 2 more years and did DePodesta sign that extension?

2006-06-13 21:38:24
505.   Jon Weisman
Miguel Ojeda's triple in the seventh broke up the 51s' no-hitter.
2006-06-13 21:38:36
506.   Steve
I apologize to Hideo Nomo by the way. I loved Nomo, and his mistreatment was one of the factors that made Jim Tracy so outrageous. I almost want them to throw Goo Tub out there every five days just to suffer.
2006-06-13 21:39:29
507.   Bluebleeder87
Wow,

we couldn't to nothing today

2006-06-13 21:40:09
508.   Bluebleeder87
tomorrow's a nother day
2006-06-13 21:40:18
509.   Greg S
504- Seriously, you are in a 4 game time warp. He is so toast it's silly. They've been shopping him for a month and Nobody wants him. Period. The game against the Mets was a "last chance" and he was a disaster. He has had about 4 "last chances". Nobody is taking him.
2006-06-13 21:40:21
510.   Greg Brock
I say we collect money to buy Odalis a motorcycle, so he can go riding with Jeff Kent and Big Ben. Sorry, had to be said. Doesn't make it classy, but had to be said.
2006-06-13 21:41:34
511.   Greg S
505 Who was throwing for the 51s?
2006-06-13 21:42:04
512.   Goozmani
drew has warning track power. o-ver-rate-ed
2006-06-13 21:42:05
513.   KidCuba
509 I guess I am hanging on to the notion that Odalis was atleast, a slightly above average pitcher at one time.

Do you think this was a result of his injury, because he sure fell apart really quick.

2006-06-13 21:42:57
514.   Disabled List
Odalis is untradeable. Even if somebody wanted him, no team will give anything up in a trade because they know that Ned's next move is to DFA him.
2006-06-13 21:44:32
515.   Jon Weisman
Hull 2 2/3, 0 H, 4 BB
Carrara 3 1/3, 0 H, 1 BB
Wunsch 2/3, 1 H, 1 BB, 1 HBP
Osoria 1/3, 0 H

Now in the bottom of the seventh.

2006-06-13 21:45:16
516.   Greg S
513- So was Dou Rau but nobdoy will take him right now either. I don't know why he is bad now. I just know that he is.
2006-06-13 21:46:23
517.   KidCuba
Thanks for the update Jon...

For better or worse, I guess Bills is on his way.

So, predictions?

I say he goes 4 and 7, with a 4.76 ERA, about 4 walks per 9 and 7 strikeouts per 9.

2006-06-13 21:46:53
518.   Steve
516 -- Where's Burt Hooton!
2006-06-13 21:46:59
519.   twerp
Apart from his on-field struggles, what did Odialusawrongnumber say or do last couple days that didn't go over well?
2006-06-13 21:47:10
520.   Nobody
509- I demand that you retract that. I do not want Odalis. Never have, never will. And I will not take him.

To say such things on a public forum is outrageous. How do you sleep at nights?

2006-06-13 21:47:32
521.   natepurcell
8-0 1.95era 1.2w/9 10.5k/9
2006-06-13 21:47:45
522.   Gen3Blue
My IP has been out all night but unfort. the game has been on DTV. We have had nothing tonight even with Garc, Kent and Drew.
As much as Perez has been dissed, Seo may have done worse, and a bad night for Sele.
I can't remember a game that has seemed this long and the Pads have been up the whole time. It gets long when you have to stay up till 10p to start.(east coast).
This may get a lot out of the system, and I don't think this funk will last long.
It's not worth dumping the farm for a few starting pitchers; baseball is too diluted for any team to have more than 2 or three good ones. But I guess something must be done.
2006-06-13 21:48:31
523.   underdog
LaRoche walked, continuing the OPS assault.
2006-06-13 21:48:33
524.   KidCuba
519 - Visit Deadspin.com, that was the last straw for me. He seems like a complete jerk. His comments in the press during past years have been bad, and the issue prior to the WBC bothered me, but this report on Deadspin, puts him in the "classless" file.

R.

2006-06-13 21:48:54
525.   Greg S
520- Sorry. My bad. Not even Nobody wants him.
2006-06-13 21:50:05
526.   underdog
525 What is this, a Family Circus cartoon? ;-)
2006-06-13 21:50:44
527.   Uncle Miltie
Aybar robbed of another walk by the umpires
2006-06-13 21:50:58
528.   KidCuba
521 Does Aybar win the triple crown, as well?
2006-06-13 21:51:20
529.   Greg Brock
525-It's official. Odalis Perez must be sent to an alternate dimension.
2006-06-13 21:51:27
530.   natepurcell
in 4 PAs tonight, Laroche saw 27 pitches. thats pretty good eh.
2006-06-13 21:52:18
531.   natepurcell
Does Aybar win the triple crown, as well?

and breaks the season record for walks.

2006-06-13 21:52:40
532.   KidCuba
Greg S - So, if your in charge of Los Dodgers, what do you do? I am interested to read your ideas?
2006-06-13 21:53:22
533.   Bob Timmermann
Why is it when a team has a really low winning percentage, like KC, when they lose their winning percentage doesn't drop by as many points as a team with a better record, such as the Dodgers will.

The Royals dropped from .258 to .254 and the Dodgers are going from .556 to .547.

And they've played the same number of games.

2006-06-13 21:54:03
534.   twerp
516. How do you throw a knuckle curve, anyhow?
2006-06-13 21:54:19
535.   Greg S
532- First, I would sign Greg S to a 1 week $20 million contract. No, no, no... FIRST I would drop Odalis Perez, THEN I would sign me.
2006-06-13 21:54:48
536.   KidCuba
Was this the place where someone said Tony Abreu is a good defensive 2B?

R.

2006-06-13 21:55:02
537.   Uncle Miltie
Coco Crisp went 0-for-6 against the Twins on Tuesday, leaving seven men on in the process.
The worst was when he grounded into an inning-ending double play with two on in a tie game in the eighth. Crisp doesn't get on base like a leadoff hitter, doesn't take pitches like a leadoff hitter and doesn't steal bases like a leadoff hitter. That he's getting more at-bats than anyone else in Boston's lineup is just bad baseball.
May we interest you guys in proven leadoff hitter Kenny Lofton?
2006-06-13 21:56:12
538.   natepurcell
335

What color is the Kenny Lofton statue outside Chavez Eavine going to be? Black or bronze?

2006-06-13 21:57:01
539.   natepurcell
Was this the place where someone said Tony Abreu is a good defensive 2B?

the scouting reports say he is.

2006-06-13 21:57:18
540.   Uncle Miltie
I thought Old Maid would be more interested in getting back to the clubhouse for the post game spread than getting on base.
2006-06-13 21:57:22
541.   KidCuba
This has been tooo much fun guys! I need to go to bed, thank you for allowing me to participate.

Maybe I will return with more weird statements soon!

2006-06-13 21:58:00
542.   thinkblue88
537. Yes, because we have a lot to brag about our 39 mil lead off man.
2006-06-13 21:59:12
543.   natepurcell
That Park is such a Ho!

har har har har.

2006-06-13 21:59:44
544.   Greg S
well, that happened.
2006-06-13 22:00:41
545.   Xeifrank
500. Thanks. I like your poem version.
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:02:08
546.   Uncle Miltie
542- Fookie takes pitches and draws walks, Crisp does neither. Fookie did not cost us a top prospect either.
2006-06-13 22:03:12
547.   Xeifrank
Too bad Tomko didn't pitch in relief tonight.
Penny, Lowe, Tomko, Sele, OPerez... (Sing)Three of these things don't belong with the others...(/Sing).
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:03:35
548.   Greg S
Huh, what? Is windbag Kevin Kennedy going to tell us something other than who is personal friends with? He says he talked to Flanders and there are going to be some changes involving Perez and Seo?
Stay tuned! Or don't. It is just Kennedy after all.
2006-06-13 22:07:27
549.   natepurcell
I think Billingsley is going to pitch on thursday.
2006-06-13 22:07:57
550.   natepurcell
I hope Lance Carter blows the save at Vegas so Laroche can get another PA.
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2006-06-13 22:08:43
551.   Uncle Miltie
Billingsley has just been called up, Guzman has been sent down. Billinglsey will pitch Thursday.

Tomko will pitch against Oakland Friday.

Odalis is going to be released and Seo will be sent to the minors, so he can dominate Vegas with his felow AAAA buddy, Lance Carter.

Ok, so I made up the last part.

2006-06-13 22:11:34
552.   twerp
Make that 518. Threw myself a knuckle curve.

516. In all time Dodger pitching history, Rau is No. 29, 80-58, 3.30 ERA. No. 28? None other than Chan Ho Park, 80-54, 3.80 ERA. From 74-78 Rau turned in 13,15,16,14, and 15 wins. Find an additional pitcher now who can come close to that and LA plays well into several Octobers, probably

2006-06-13 22:11:40
553.   Jon Weisman
541 - Thanks for coming, Kid.
2006-06-13 22:12:11
554.   Vaudeville Villain
Okay, that sucked.

Anyway, I'm in the same boat as Andrew Shimmin, what with being an "Aybar backer" (TM).

I'm completely oblivious to the merits of using BABIP as a measure of hitters. Doesn't it seem obvious that yes, better hitters will have a better BABIP than others?

If someone would explain it to me, I'd like to hear.

Also, it's not like Aybar lacks value, even if he is a little lucky right now. He draws a ton of walks, and if he didn't get terrible calls from the umpires so frequently, he'd probably have even more walks.

2006-06-13 22:12:58
555.   Jon Weisman
Osoria bats for himself in the bottom of the eighth of a 4-3 game. He'll be going for a 2 1/3-inning one-run save.
2006-06-13 22:13:45
556.   Xeifrank
551. Source?
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:14:18
557.   natepurcell
Kennedy just showed a clip of Chad striking out Vlad. Now I am going to go back and rewatch that game.
2006-06-13 22:14:48
558.   JoeyP
You guys missed a great NBA Finals game.
2006-06-13 22:15:14
559.   Gen3Blue
Thoughts-
This game might have been completely different without Lofton and Furcal's errors.
I always liked the looks of Chan Ho's stuff and couldn't figure out why he couldn't learn to pitch better.
I'm more and more disenchanted with long gauranteed contracts, but ownership was stupid enough to come to this point. (I don't really see it as the players fault, but a result of the owners greed and ego.
While out of line or just big contracts occasionally help a team: ie. Bonds made the Giants a minor contender for many years, they have never helped the Dodgers ( Kevin Brown, Driefart, and perhaps Furcal).
2006-06-13 22:16:19
560.   Greg S
557- Kevin Kennedy said he spoke to Flanders today and he all but confirmed that Bills would be pitching on Thursday. Shockingly, he didn't mention being a personal friend of his ot take credit for teaching him to pitch.
2006-06-13 22:16:29
561.   Xeifrank
558. Didn't the NBA season end a few weeks ago? vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:16:43
562.   Steve
I enjoyed Nobody's insights tonight.
2006-06-13 22:17:20
563.   JoeyP
Chan Ho actually did have a couple good seasons with the Dodgers. I think his contract with the Rangers distort the Dodger memories. He WAS at one time good.
2006-06-13 22:17:38
564.   Greg S
560- Sorry, that was for 556.
2006-06-13 22:18:07
565.   Uncle Miltie
558- I watched the last 5 minutes. Wade was amazing. Kobe must be really jealous.
2006-06-13 22:18:26
566.   Gen3Blue
There was a time I feared Kevin Kennedy might manage the Dodgers, and thank god I missed something about the NBA.
2006-06-13 22:19:10
567.   JoeyP
561. I lost interest for awhile too but after this game I'm going to watch the rest of the series. Miami came from 13 behind with 6min left to win.
2006-06-13 22:19:36
568.   blue22
554 - It's not the BABIP in a vacuum. The stat that pesters me is his line drive percentage. It's been consistently low since he arrived, and it's the worst on the team this year.

Couple that with a high BABIP, and I fear that he's had lots of "groundballs with eyes".

2006-06-13 22:20:14
569.   ddger
Furcal now leads the Majors with 15 errors. He could wind up with over 40 if he keeps this up. I didn't realize he was this bad. I was willing to give him a pass early in the season because he wasn't completely healthy but I thought he was healthy now so what's his excuse? I guess Izturis might come back to play SS after all.
2006-06-13 22:20:33
570.   trainwreck
I was hoping for the Billz against the A's.
2006-06-13 22:20:50
571.   Xeifrank
FSN says it's official $5 Bills will pitch thursday. That should keep us in the playoff hunt. vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:21:47
572.   Vaudeville Villain
568-

But how is Line drive percentage calculated? Just by eye, (admittedly worthless), he seems to hit quite a few line drives.

2006-06-13 22:21:59
573.   JoeyP
565. If Wade was just 2 inches taller, I think he'd be a Jordan clone. Kobe isnt the athlete Jordan was. Lebron is like a more athletic Magic. But Wade is MJ minus 2 inches.

I cant believe so many laker fans hate Shaq. I'm a Laker fan, but I'd still like to see Shaq win a ring. The only Ex-Laker I dont like is Gary Payton, and of course he hits the GW tonite. And the only reason I dont like GP is that he wasnt very good on the Lakers. When he was with the Sonics, I thought he was ok.

2006-06-13 22:24:19
574.   Xeifrank
573. I'm a "Shaq hater". Not a big one, but a hater nonetheless. Atleast that's what my co-worker calls me. I mean I don't hate him enough that I would start a website called FireShaq.Com, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend and Mark Cuban is a good buddy for a few more days. vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:24:37
575.   Eric L
563 You are correct. For the most part, Chan Ho was a slightly above average pitcher during his time in LA. He only had one bad year in '99 with an ERA+ of 85. Every other year, his ERA+ was over 100.

Not than an ERA+ over 100 makes him a great pitcher, but the late 90's verson of Chan Ho would be welcome on this team.

2006-06-13 22:28:44
576.   blue22
572 - Not sure on that. Hardball Times features it, but I'm not sure where they get the data.
2006-06-13 22:29:15
577.   Xeifrank
FWIW, Penny is #3 in the MLB in DIPS (behind Webb and J.Santana). Lowe is #30 and Tomko #75. Odalis is off the charts, probably ranked just below Bob Timmermann.
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:29:42
578.   Uncle Miltie
573- I don't think so. Kobe is a great player because of the elevation he gets when he shoots. He can jump over a 7 footer. You hardly ever see him get a jumpshot blocked. Wade really can't shoot outside of 12-15 feet with any consistency. To become a truly great player, Wade is going to have to become a much better defender and extend the range on his jump shot to at least 20 feet. He is one of the quickest players in the NBA (hence the nickname "flash"). That quickness won't be there when he's 30 years old. He's a fun player to watch, but I'll take Lebron over him any day. Lebron is some kind of freak science experiment gone wrong. Great quickness, strength, athleticism. He is a monster. If Lebron played baseball, he'd be like Raul Mondesi (not production wise). Mondesi is one of the greatest athletes I have ever seen in any sport.
2006-06-13 22:33:29
579.   Xeifrank
578. greater than Bo Jackson?
vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:33:33
580.   Uncle Miltie
I don't want the Heat to win because I'm a Riley hater. He is one of the most overrated coaches in NBA history (not as overrated as Phil Jackson though). He is a complete jerk and never takes any of the blame (sound familiar?) Riley said yesterday that the Heat (were) down 0-2 in the series because the Heat players weren't playing hard enough.
2006-06-13 22:35:10
581.   Xeifrank
581. Sounds more like a coach trying to light a fire under his players. vr, Xei
2006-06-13 22:35:13
582.   Jon Weisman
The Billingsley news allows us to start a new thread.
2006-06-13 22:36:29
583.   blue22
Here is an interesting HT article about out of whack LD% and BABIP being a predictor on un/lucky streaks for both pitchers and hitters.

http://tinyurl.com/ez5az

2006-06-13 22:38:45
584.   Eric L
580 You know, when you've won as much as Jackson and Riley have (especially Jackson), you can't really call them overrated.

I wonder if Riley really believes that statement. I think it might be cliche speak.

2006-06-13 22:43:37
585.   JoeyP
I dont think Riles is overrated. He's been 3 places and won at all of them. He helped retore the Knicks. He's rebuilt the Heat. When he was in LA of course he had great talent around him. I'd still take Riley/West back in a heartbeat to the Lakers.

I'll agree with you on Phil tho. I cant stand Phil.

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