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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with
In a move that crushes all those Dodgers fans who would rather have a good farm system than a good team, Ned Colletti trades one kid for a better kid. How dare he try to win this year!
"Those Dodger fans" ...
The argument some people are making is to not trash the future to try to win this year. That's all. It's fine to contest that, but making an opposing argument into something it's not doesn't do a whole lot of good - and being snide about it is just plain insulting.
Yes, I'm fooling myself.
And I still say Betemit looks like Kanye West.
I started as a shortstop," said Betemit, who was blocked in Atlanta at that position by Furcal. "When they moved me to third base, I added about 20 pounds. I feel comfortable playing there now. The first time, it was a little confusing. The ball gets there quickly."
Kanye West is a fool.
While I don't believe he'll ever be a good hitter -- and let's be clear on that point -- I can see him making solid gains, somewhat like Ozzie Smith did. When you factor in his splendid defense, those gains could be crucial for whoever employs him.
Jon and others here often point out that Izzy has a career OPS of .630 or so. Factoring in his dreadful .627 OPS in the minors (including an abysmal .294 OBP)it seems a good bet that this is the exasperating, sinkhole of hitter Izzy will be from here on out. And he might get worse should he lose some footspeed, which many middle infielders do in their late 20s.
As Jon has observed, Izzy is very singles-reliant and can't leg out many hits, adding to the problems.
But my belief is that Izturis is an evolving hitter, and that a .730-plus OPS is within his grasp in his prime years -- 26-28. At worst, given a full season next year, I see him as a .675-710 OPS guy, as he was in 2004, and that's about average for a No. 8 hitter in the NL right now.
My belief is he has always had good hand-eye coordination as a hitter, partly evidenced by his low K ratios at all levels, but that he simply lacked the strength to do anything with it.
Entering 2004, Izturis had already made some 600 PAs in the majors. He had posted a brutal career OPS of .582.
About that time, Wallach and others spoke of how Izturis had virtually no strength, that his bottom hand needed to get a lot stronger. The improvement was pretty interesting, if not provably correlative.
In 2004, at the age of 24, Izturis OPSd at .710. Not all that great on its own, but considering what he had done in his prior 181 games -- .582 -- a large step forward.
And though Tracy didn't want to do it, he asked an incredible amount of Izturis in 2004. Playing SS is grueling enough. Izzy played it more than nearly everyone else in the majors (still led all SSs in zone rating, .881; accrued more ABs -- 670 -- than any Dodgers SS since Wills, 1962).
He was also batting leadoff, which is more taxing than, say, eighth, for a team that went through a rugged race. In all, quite a load to carry. A year to greatly respect, too.
Fast forward to 2005. Izturis' at-bats in April and May were solid. He was showing just enough power to create some holes. He was getting better at fouling off tough pitches.
Was he producing over his head? Sure, but perhaps not quite as much as commonly assumed.
Anyway, about the time the hamstring started to go in early June, he had an OPS of about .800-.810. Then he blew out the elbow.
Presently his OPS is something like .620.
My belief is he can and will do better, even with the pitcher (or, perhaps worse, Hall) hitting behind him. One X factor is the effect TJ surgery has. Pitchers say their strength one year after TJ surgery is good, but it takes two years to have the sure, consistent coordination and feel they had prior to the surgery.
I also believe the challenges of playing 3B and rust from a year off should have been viewed as potential mitigating factors.
Anyway, that's my take on Izzy the hitter, and I believe that Izzy the 2B immediately upgrades the Dodgers pitching staff.
you say .730 OPS but have nothing to back it up. The rest of us are looking at what he's produced. It's not as if the guy is only in his first or second year.
He was also batting leadoff, which is more taxing than, say, eighth, for a team that went through a rugged race. In all, quite a load to carry. A year to greatly respect, too.
You're really, really stretching it here. I don't buy the argument one bit that he is at a disadvantage for hitting lead off.
I also believe the challenges of playing 3B and rust from a year off should have been viewed as potential mitigating factors.
I don't see what the challenges of playing third base have anything to do with his hitting.
The bottom line with Izzy is that he's never been a good hitter. Lots of people point to his .288 in '04 and my response is always: so what? .288 with no power, no speed, and doesn't draw walks.
The problem is that a lot of Dodger fans give Izzy a free pass just because they like him. I don't have anything against him personally, but the guy is simply not a good hitter, nor will he ever be. I'm not about to believe that he's miraculously going to start hitting in the next year or two when we have numerous years of evidence that prove otherwise.
Someone who is only a singles hitter basically has to rely on luck. If his flares fall in and his ground balls have eyes, we're golden. The problem with this is that the majority of the time those flares are caught, and the ground balls don't have eyes. Someone like Furcal at least has some power, draws walks, and makes up for a lot of his singles with steals. Izzy doesn't have any of that. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...Izzy is basically Royce Clayton. I have a hard time believing so many people would be sticking up for Royce Clayton this much so the only explanation is that everyone likes Izzy simply because he's a Dodger.
JMO, but try playing the position, as a matter of fact try playing it & winning a glove glove & batting .288, one better try getting the admiration/loyal fallowing Izzy got. no disrespect just my point of view.
Unforunately, Izzy the third baseman doesn't cut it, especially on a team that lacks power. Furcal is simply better than Izturis, and you can't afford Izturis' bat anywhere but in the middle infield. I think he's a step above the Neifis and Claytons of this world since his defense is better (according to Dewan) and he still has youth on his side.
Izzy is a decent option, but there's no place for him on this team.
J. Bowden
RFK Stadium
Washington, DC 00666
I played third base in high school, was drafted, and played third base in college.
I don't care about "admiration/loyal following"...that doesn't make someone a good player.
Betemit is clearly a better ball player than Izzy, so if Ned doesn't give him up in the next day it's going to be interesting to see what happens when Kent comes back.
Last time I talked with friends, it seemed defense was not as heavily wieghted as offense, and I'm not sure if pitching is completely integrated.
Anywho, I see a great era coming with our young guys, and I have seen wonderful things in the Koufax and Fernando days and beyond.
Exactly. Maybe if our lineup looked like the Mets or Yankees I could deal with it, but not with our lineup.
so do you think "Furcal" is a better fielder than Izzy?? how many games has Furcal lost with his glove? (the glove never goes into a slump remember that & you can build around a glove)
so do you think "Furcal" is a better fielder than Izzy?? how many games has Furcal lost with his glove? (the glove never goes into a slump remember that & you can build around a glove)
sorry I rather take Izzy & build around him.
my heart is pumping faster than normal & I don't like it.
Besides, if he repeated last year where he had Ozzie Smith like defense, 13 million is a bargain.
Like the stupidest thing you could do is own Furcal and Izturis and go after Tejada.
If you need power for itself, which rings of fantasy, get it at 1st base or the corner outfield pos. where it is cheapest.
no one has ever said he's a better fielder. But his bat makes up for a lot of it. How many has Furcal lost with his glove? I'm going to say not many. How many games has Izturis won with his glove? again, not many.
13,000,000.00 million for a guy that hits, what (out of my head) 280-290 career??? come one!!! & thinks he's a 25 Home run type players??
Let's see, he has some power which izzy doesn't. He can take a walk which izzy can't. He can steal a base, which izzy can't.
What you don't seem to realize is that Izturis is an awful hitter, and his defense doesn't make up for it. How many more erros does Furcal make, and in turn, how many of those errors turn into runs that lose the game? Not many at all. Yet, Furcal at least can produce runs on the offensive side which is something Izzy can't do.
Furcal (notice I do't call that guy fuky,furry, or what ever other's call him)
ps Izzy makes Furcal look like me in a game.
It seems like defensive stats flucuate a lot more than offensive ones, which runs contrary to the "defense never slumps" theory.
I was in the believe that "saber" guys don't like stolen bases?
are you telling me that a 290, hitter is worth 13,000,000.00 dollars??? Ned droped the ball period
if you feel he's overpaid, then fine.
But if you think Izzy is a better player, then you're flat out wrong.
I don't believe David Ortiz is hitting .290 this year...oh, and neither is Arod.
KENNY LOFTON THREW SOMEONE OUT?!
well you are kind of right there, but Izzy makes "Fuzzy" (ugh!!!!!!) look like a child when it comes to difence period
Has Mota totally lost "it," or could he get some of "it" back where he had the most success--especially if worked back in to setup, where he excelled?
Have seen a lot of his Cleveland troubles attributed, right or wrong, to loss of confidence.
Hasn't done a lot since leaving LA but career #s show 502 IP, only 440 hits, 402 Ks. His away ERA even this awful season 3.86, but home ERA a bit over 8...which might lend weight to the confidence loss angle.
At least if there's a G. Mota II, he should come back cheap...if picked up, try him in LV a bit, bring him up if warranted?
Plaschke writes something utterly inane; dog bites man. It's not much of a story.
Wilson "can't find a" Betemit
exactly.
Furkel : ARod :: Plaschke : Common Sense
I was trying to prove a point. He said that a 290 hitter isn't worth 13 million. period.
I'm not saying I don't think Furcal is overpaid...but anyone who honestly thinks that this same lineup would be better with Izzy in place of Furcal is smoking wacky tobacky.
no. (unless you go out there & do it you're self then I'll respect it) Izzy has the best hands/can read a ball better than any Dodger I've seen. I'm not saying I'm right I'm just saying I love watching him dance.
ps Furcal is a tool
I actually do believe in stats, but for diffence?? can you prove it's accurate?(thinking outloud no disrespect)
See, again, you're wrong. Try looking at defensive numbers. They are a lot closer than you'd think.
You don't have anything to back up your argument. Any time someone knocks Izzy you just bring up the 13 mill to Furcal. Give me some numbers to back up your assumption that Izturis is a better player than Furcal.
If all you're going to do is disregard stats that don't prove your own point then there's really no point in talking about it anymore.
So you think that he's "Something regarded as necessary to the carrying out of one's occupation or profession"*?
* - dictionary.com
Stan from Tacoma
if there's any chance they would take Furcal back for Soriano I'd do it in a heartbeat, then you've got money opened up to re-sign him.
Of course, that isn't going to happen.
do you know what Vinnie says about that???
ps I love Vinnie :o)
I think it's because he is probably just more visible and more people know him. But you're right, both stink.
It honestly blows my mind that one of the biggest newspapers on the planet has a guy writing it's Sports that shouldn't even be writing for a high school paper. It's honestly mind boggling.
Exactly. You can't.
can you annocently say Furcal is a better fielder than Izzy??.
I remember that, I wish he wouldn't have.
if you're not going to back up your assessment with anything other than Izzy is better because you THINK he's better and "Furcal is a tool" then there's really no point in discussing it with you at all.
My advise: look at some numbers.
I like that.
And Steve, you are clearly bright and insightful unlike either of the writers at the Times. So perhaps you can give your opinion without the name calling. Obviously you can do whatever you like, just my two cents that your opinion comes through much stronger that way.
so you're telling me that Furcal is better than Izzy, D, wise?? (#'s wise)
I still haven't seen any defensive numbers.
ESPN has Zone Rating stats on their web site. Furcal was #6 out of 30 SS in 2005.
Furcal only had 15 errors all of last year, while making lots of plays. He hasn't played well defensively for the first half this year, but he definitely did play well in 2005.
At second base.
Now, we're talking small sample sizes here, but let's look at these:
Shortstop career stats
Furcal: .964 FP, 4.85 RF, .832 ZR
Izturis: .980 FP, 4.40 RF, .861 ZR
Second Base Career Numbers
Furcal: 255 INN, .993 FP, 4.76 RF, .885 ZR
Izturis: 309 INN, .988 FP, 4.98 RF, .797 ZR
Career #'s please!!??
I never said he was BETTER defensively. Ive never denied IZzy's defense...I'm saying he's the better player.
.981 FP, 5.12 RF, .826 ZR
& vise versa!!
Their SS career stats are close. Yet, everyone around here would like to think Izturis is the best SS of all time.
I wouldn't strech it that far, better than alot is a better way of putting it.
2006: -8
2005: +20
2004: +3
2003: -9
2002: +7
2001: +6
2000: -3
Career : +17 (and +145 Fielding Runs above Replacement)
Izturis:
2006: -1
2005: +8
2004: -8
2003: +11
Career: +4 (+90 FRAR)
I don't know what that means?? (I'm not joking)
Staan from Tacoma
& I think Furcal is a good hitter, but I'm of the nochen that a great SS can get you over the hump (building around him ofcourse)
not to mention we have no need for Piazza with Martin
By the way, izturis is no great shakes either. But there will be little appreciable shortterm effect from trading furkel for his perceived value and moving izturis back to shortstop, unless grittle moves him back to leadoff again, in which case we should just burn down dodger stadium and become giants fans.
Izturis is about the last guy in the majors you want to build around.
Would you build around Royce Clayton?
After all, 90% of this game is half-mental.
I 2nd that thought.
what do you mean by that??? do you have inside sources??
Defense just doesn't have an easily quantifyable effect.
yeah, I like Martin batting 2nd, he takes alot of pitches, I'd like that.
http://tinyurl.com/s2aar
Ethier really likes the middle of the lineup
that's why (IMO) if you play the position you just have a better love for what they do.JMO.(I play in a dopy league by the way)
Ethier is from Canada right?
"I'm Andre," said Ethier, whose grandparents are from Quebec. "I'm not going to hit 50 home runs, but I might score 80."
Though no one has mentioned your "Sabers don't like stolen bases"-joke, I feel it's important to note that, well, you're wrong. What the stat inclined person feels is important is to pay attention to the SB:CS ratio, as well as not stealing in situations where it would be harmful to vacate first base (Down 3 in the ninth; down one with a 2002 Barry Bonds up; Etc.).
what do you think of Izzy vs. Furcal diffenbly?
I like you're argument (makes me think) but even a ball hit streight to Furcal gives me the willies!!. Do you really trust Furcal over Izzy in the D. department??
Bottom line is that I think they're both excellent defensive shortstops, so this whole argument is splitting way too many hairs for my taste.
I know that's not the greatest rationale, so I'm willing to listen to counterpoints.
I knew Ned could'nt stay away from aging useless veterans. Going after Fidel is a new low for Ned.
I don't either. but Izzy loooks better.
Izzy= Neifi Perez, Royce Clayton, Juan Castro
Furcal= Better than Izzy, but when Tejada and Furcal make virtually the same amount of money, it illustrates just how overpaid Furcal is.
The only way Nedusa can rectify the situation is to trade Furcal for Tejada.
Izzy right now I could care less about. The season is over, so if they want to play him at 2nd base, does it really matter? Not really.
Rod Barajas - .258/.292/.415 in 260 AB
Gerald Laird - .347/.380/.579 in 121 AB
and that's before Laird went 3-5 in today's game.
A baseball executive told ESPN The Magazine's Amy Nelson that the Dodgers are the hottest team on Greg Maddux, and that the Cubs and Dodgers are haggling over prospects. The deal would be two L.A. prospects for Maddux; one would be a position player, the other a pitcher. And both would be high-level, likely coming from their loaded Triple-A team in Las Vegas.
Bruce Jenkins, SF Chronicle:
"As for Benitez, the man is simply a joke, a parody of himself. The Giants acquired him not because of his postseason reputation -- which was bloody awful, forged with the Orioles and Mets -- but for one brilliant season in the relative obscurity of Florida. Right now, the Giants' fans should almost hope their team does NOT reach the postseason, because if it gets that far, Benitez will set the whole thing in flames. "
and ...
"Cesar Izturis could use a change of scene. After undergoing elbow surgery, he watched the Dodgers sign Rafael Furcal to play shortstop, where Izturis had been one of the best in baseball. When Bill Mueller got hurt, Izturis was asked to play third. When his wife required a caesarian-section birth, Izturis was at her side for nearly a week, irritating certain members of the organization (who should all be shot, by the way). Now, with Wilson Betemit acquired from Atlanta to play third, Izturis is being asked to play second base in the absence of injured Jeff Kent. Somewhere, there's a team that could use Izturis at short."
I knew Ned could'nt stay away from aging useless veterans. Going after Fidel is a new low for Ned.*
I love coming here.
Giving up anything for Greg Maddux makes absolutely no sense at all.
No indication if this executive is even with one of the two teams mentioned.
I really find it hard to believe that Colletti, whatever you think of him, would spend two high-level prospects for two months of a 5 ERA pitcher.
I think I'd rather rely on LAT for information. At least he provides names.
As long as the player is above average, I have no problem with how much money they make. That doesnt mean Furcal isnt overpaid. But the goal is to put the best 8 guys in the lineup regardless of salary.
I'm fine with Robles, but make it Carter instead of Wunsch. Proven veteran and all that.
Rate2 is, at its heart, range factor - putouts plus assissts. This is a good start, but it is inherently unfair. For example, Manny Ramirez plays half his games in Fenway Park, where there is very little territory in left. Balls that would ordinarily get caught get counted against Ramirez through no fault of his own. Other factors, like whether or not the pitcher is a ground ball pitcher affect the stat as well. Rate2 makes adjustments for all these things, converts it into runs, then gives a result.
Dewan system is as follows (description stolen from Hardball Times)
For each year, Dewan finds the probability of fielding a ball based on where it went (distance, direction), the batted ball type (fly ball, line drive, etc.), and whether the ball was hit hard, medium, or soft. So if on a hard ground ball to Vector 17, the shortstop only has a 10% chance of making a play, and he does, then he is credit with 1 -.1 = .9 plays above average. If he does not make the play, he is credited with 0 - .1 = -.1 plays above average. Dewan runs this analysis on every ball put into play in each of the past three seasons, and adds up the results for every player in the major leagues. The resulting rating is the player's plus/minus.
172 It has been my impression that you usually don't hear much about deals that Ned makes until the deal is made.
The deal with Atlanta was never mentioned as a possible rumor, whereas ESPN reported the Padres as going after him for days.
His playing weight is listed as 200 or 220, depending on the source. He's probably put on some weight since retiring. Whatever he weighs, I'll never forget the two-run homer he hit off Dwight Gooden in the ninth inning of Game 4 of the 1988 playoffs, tying the game at 3-3. We won the game in extra innings, then the pennant and then the World Series. If I ever meet him, I'll offer to buy him a meal.
A little harsh, but a good point.
In my opinion there isn't a valid defense stats, so anyone arguing that this player is better than that player at defense is irrelevant.
Another thing to think about is how many times does an error actually cost a team the game, and one can argue that if an error actually did cost a run that maybe the pitching or better yet the hitting should have done better in the game, thus preventing the team from getting into the position that an error can make the difference in the game.
That being said, since we acquired betemit who has played shortstop in the past and is his natural or first position he played in the majors but was moved to 3b because furcal was blocking him, i think ned should obviously trade izturis who should have been traded a long time ago, but also i think ned should trade furcal and his bloated salary to free up more money for pitching, you know the stuff we are thin on in the minor leagues as well as on the big club.
Therefore betemit our future ss.
Oh and furcal is a waaaaaaaay better hitter than izturis, and betemit is a better hitter than furcal.
Now will ned do all of this?, i highly doubt it since we are talking about the guy that loves speed, defense, athleticism.
I liked Scioscia and hated that he left the Dodgers, especially the way it went down.
Some observations from the game.
The good:
Wilson looked really good at the plate and his one fielding chance, he came in well on the ball and even double clutching, threw out Soriano pretty easily.
Loney, got the key double but made a play in the field where he took a grounder and made a nice controlled throw that almost turned into a double play, looks smooth around the bag.
Tomko, threw hard, and seems to be getting adjusted to the throw hard for one inning gig.
Broxton battled back and got the groundball, boy is Ward slow, I was watching through my binoculars and I saw Izzy make a nice feed to Raffy and then when I looked up to see where Ward was, he was just 2/3 down the line, so it was an easy DP.
The bad, at one point the Dodgers were 9-11 with the bases empty and 0-11 with runners on base. They still probably finished 1-15 or so with runners on.
Hendrickson, on the one hand, he battled through it and the Dodgers did him no favors leaving those guys on base during the early part of the game but most of his troubles were self inflicted but aside from the walks, they didn't get many hard shots off him.
The miraculous - Cruz's homer, it was a no doubter when it left the bat but no one was more surprised than me when he it.
Isn't it preferable to catch the ball?
It is highly unlikely our prospects would pass through waivers (impossible would be my guess) so if they don't get traded by tomorrow, we are safe until the off-season.
Plaschke sees himself as some spokesman for the fan and thus as this arrogance that is a lot harder to take.
Just my opinion, but that is why people tend to rag on Plaschke here than Simers.
And there is no proof behind "looks better"
Again there is no proof (no stat) that can tell anyone that this guy is better at defense than that guy.
The Cardinals trade today is somewhat puzzling, in that they traded a player (Luna) who, given the opportunity, could replicate the numbers of the player acquired (Belliard). But Belliard has been to an All-Star Game, costs a little more and is a free agent at season's end, while Luna is a lowly Rule 5 pick.
I daresay the Cardinals wouldn't be crazy about Belliard's production if they platooned him with Aaron Miles.
An example is if there were 2 guys that play the same position that put up very similar offensive numbers and were the same age and had the same contract and i had to choose one or the other, i would chose the guy that seems to have better defense.
(Seems) because there is no valid defense stat.
Of course.
Run prevention however starts with accumulating pitchers that do not yield walks, HR's, keep the ball on the ground, and take the ball out of play on their own (strikeouts).
Defense seems about as over valued (theoretically) as middle relief pitching, even amongst SABR types I think now. Its just that you can have the greatest middle relievers in the world, but that doesnt matter if your starters and offense both stink. Same thing applies with defense.
Defense can never be a foundation of a team. Its secondary to everything else.
The Red Sox have the fewest errors in the league. Thats sort of what I'd expect from my defense, if I cared about it after accumulating all the players. Just make the routine plays. Thats it.
Basically, great pitching/great hitting can make up for bad defense. Good defense cannot make up for great pitching/great hitting.
Defense cant prevent home runs. Thats the key.
I agree with you (somewhat) but diffence is a HUGE part of baseball, I can't stand watching bonehead plays by fielders!.
Why break the bank with starters when you can find some bargain guys who can keep the ball in the park and then let the defense make them look good.
I don't have the details yet, but it appears leadoff hitter Lastings Milledge was pulled from the Norfolk Tides game tonight after one at-bat (a strikeout). Does that mean he's Oakland-bound? I'll look into it.
UPDATE: Never mind, he was ejected. False alarm.
I don't like it when people play with my immotions. :o)
I long for the day where we have defensive statistics that are a better measure than the eyeballs of an experienced observer, but I don't think we're there yet.
There arent many of these types around.
Jamey Wright and Doug Davis might qualify.
Most of the bargain guys that keep the ball in the park, havent been through free agency yet. Blanton, Willis, Jason Jennings etc..
If five different defensive stats with different (though not mutually exclusive) methodologies say the same basic thing about a fielder, I think it would be naive to assume they're all wrong. Feel free to include naked-eye observation in there too. But you don't need to throw the numbers out.
It's only if the defensive stats are in big disagreement that you a) have to decide if you prefer one over another or b) have to throw them out entirely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Score
215 You can just pull up some AAA guys then, like Houlton or Hanaran. Move them from suck to average.
good stuff.
And we'll pay all of Lowe's salary.
they lost (who cares)
Laroche homered and Kemp had 2 hits. Guzman didn't play (uh oh).
So, which pitching prospect will accompany Guzman in the Maddux trade...?
I don't, but -
Laroche homered and Kemp had 2 hits. Guzman didn't play (uh oh).
THAT's what I wanted to know.
By the way Nomar's brother, Michael, is playing for Tacoma. Has many of Nomar's habits too. He does the toe tap in the batter's box. Oddly,he does not wear batting gloves, so he does not have that routine going. He is super aggressive at the plate. He has a 340 B.A., though I don't think he hits the ball as hard as Nomar.
Stan from Tacoma
I still wouldn't put stock in it, especially when we are talking about a far superior hitter in furcal vs izturis.
But what you said in your post can be part of what i was saying here:
An example is if there were 2 guys that play the same position that put up very similar offensive numbers and were the same age and had the same contract and i had to choose one or the other, i would chose the guy that seems to have better defense.
Meaning if offense, contract, age were the same and i had to choose between the 2 players i would take a look at the defense stats even tho i don't think they are valid.
But bottom line, defense is an extra to me.
Its like a car, a good ops is the same as a car that runs, a bad ops is a car that doesn't run, and good defense is the same as having power windows/cd player/air conditioning/sun roof.
Now which car would you rather have, the one that runs without all those extras, or the car that doesn't run but has all those extras?
Bottom line people make too much out of defense, its an extra people, and something you can live without.
...plus one billion dollars.
C. Izturis: 54 errors, 2631 total chances, error rate 0.0205245
Ozzie Smith: 281 errors,12905 total chances, error rate 0.0217745
R. Furcal: 152 errors, 4341 total chances, error rate 0.0350149
Can someone recognize a bad defensive play? If it is bad enough, of course.
Can someone recognize a good defensive play? Again, though harder, if it is good enough, then yes they can.
But to know whether someone is a good or bad defensive player is an entirely different matter, especially given that everyone that plays professional baseball is a very good defensive player - the worst of the worst that make it to the professional level are not more than 80% worse than the best of the best.
To know if someone is a good or bad defensive player requires witnessing, and understanding, thousands of situations. That is something a human looking with his or her "eyes" just can't do.
This in turn leads to systematic biases and "shortcuts". Spectactular looking plays (like the kind Jeter routinely makes) stick out in the mind. Actual errors - especially if they look bad enough - stick out in the mind. Slightly sub-optimal possitioning, slightly off foot work, poor judgment, slow hands, half-second delays on a jump - these things are rarely noticed (nor are the "good" side of those by good defenders).
Additionally, since the brain is incapable of data processing sufficently, reputation starts to substitute for analysis. Finally (for now), because subtle differences in "routine plays" are not recognizable, with the eyes we generally can at best (if the other flaws are overcome) tell who is spectacular and who is terrible. Telling the difference between a player whoes defense is worth 1 win over average and whoes defense is merely average is impossible.
Defensive meterics have progressed nicely over the last decade and they continue to progress. They are certainly more flawed than offensive and pitching stats - especially offensive stats. But they are also still a lot better than relying on "eyes."
I cant believe Oswalt was available.
This cannot be true. Perhaps what you mean is "we don't know enough about defense to be confident that a +5 win offensive SS with -2 wins defense is worse than a +1 win offensive SS with +3 wins defense."
That I agree. Offensive analysis is more important because it is more reliable as a predictor of worth. But the game is ultmately RS-RA and if you can reliably know the effect of any one player on either RS or RA then they are equally important.
That's pretty much what i meant, i guess i worded it bad.
I predict the Angels stand pat. If the A's let go of Zito, the Angels win the AL West going away.
Starting pitching is almost everything. It's what's wrong with the Dodgers, and what's right with the Angels.
I'm a fan of Izzy, but I hope we trade to someone who can add another decent pitching prospect into our system. All the Kemps, Loneys,Ethiers and LaRoches on the planet can't help the Dodgers if we keep having to throw bad starters up there and hope they eat innings before the innings eat them.
1) Matt Kemp's development as a hitter has me very excited. Not because of his power or speed or batting average. I've been following prospects since about 2003 when Kemp was drafted, and he's certainly showed his ability to hit for average, power, and displayed his speed with aplomb prior to this season. But in 2006 Kemp has become a more disciplined hitter. If you only know Kemp from his days in a Dodger uniform you may find that odd, but his K:W:PA ration (IMO the best measure of "plate discipline") is much better this year in AA and so far in AAA than it was in previous years, so much so that I would compare him favorably to Vernon Wells at the same age. Oh, and Martin is now (and I said he would be) everything Bill Plascke thought Paul LoDuca was.
2) Who in the world still reads Bill Plascke's articles? If I wanted to hear inconsitent, illogical babbling I'll talk to the homeless people that live in Isla Vista.
Exactly.
That's why i keep saying ned's #1 priority should be starting pitching and i mean legit starting pitching not the tomko and hendrickson's of the world.
I get the impression that our GM isn't particularly interested in plate discipline.
What does a K have to do with discipline? Player A with a .250 BA and .350 OBP, but who has a K/BB ratio of 1 is less disciplined than Player B with a .250 BA and .280 OBP but a K/BB ratio of 0.2? Clearly not.
The best measure of "plate discipline" alone is probably P/PA. The most useful (to an offense) measure of plate discipline is IsoD (OBP-BA). Players with excellent discipline come in both players with excellent K/BB (Bonds, Helton) and those with Terrible K/BB (Dunn).
Starting pitching is important, but it can't be more than half the game. Hitting is pretty important. Dont forget that the Angels somehow won 99 games and the World Series with a rotation of Jarrod Washburn, Ramon Ortiz, Aaron Sele, Kevin Appier, and John Lackey/Scott Schoenweis (Lackey was a rookie call-up). You can win without a dominant rotation, you can in-fact win with a bad rotation in the same way you can win with a bad offense.
How much more homer-prone is Wrigley than DS? I would tend to think a good bit.
His K/9 is 5.35, which isn't great, but his K/BB is about 3.52, which is still pretty good. His homer rate hasn't been great this year, but it's down a bit at 0.93 HR/9. His opponent's batting average, though, is at .284, the highest it's been since it broke .290 back in 1999.
I think Greg Maddux could be a useful addition to the team, but I'd want to either trade very little for him, or get him as a free agent to a 1 year deal with an option for 08.
Eh maybe unless that player is a HBP machine which could greatly increase his ISOd.
During the regular season pitching is less than half the game - half is hitting and half is a combination of pitching + defense. Pitching is about 70% starting pitching and 30% relief, so starting pitching is 70% of something less than 50%.
During the playoffs, things change, since your starters go from a 5 man rotation to a three man rotation and because they can push harder. The offense, oth, does not improve much.
It might be possible to improve this measure if someone started keeping track of whether pitches thrown were balls or strikes. For example: does discipline refer more to "taking balls" or "taking strikes", or does it refer equally to both? If one or the other, then it might be nice to know, in addition to P/PA, how many of those Ps (on average) were pitches in the strike zone and pitches outside the strike zone, as well as (and I think this is key) how many were foul balls. Seems to me that players shouldn't get credit for being "disciplined" if a big chunk of their P/PA ratio comes from foul balls.
The Orioles, according to the official, intended to trade Oswalt to the Rangers for a package of three players third baseman Hank Blalock, Triple-A shortstop Joaquin Arias and one of the Rangers' top pitching prospects.*
what is that comparable to us? Laroche, Elbert and Hu?
Appier : 111
Ortiz: 115
Washburn: 138
Sele: 89
Lackey: 119
Don't forget the bullpen with Percival, Donnelly, Weber, Shields was fantastic.
The staff was #2 in ERA in the AL. They were #4 in the AL in runs scored.
You just didn't like Alex Cora at all, did you?
The '02 Angels rotation sounds pathetic now, but without looking it up, it's my recollection that they pitched pretty well in the second half. Washburn in particular pitched better than he ever will again. They also had a great pen, almost totally reliable after the sixth inning. K-rod's emergence at the end of the season was electrifying.
But having Glaus's power didn't hurt, that's for sure. This was also Anderson's last good year.
I honestly dont know what Oswalt was on the table anyways. Pettite is old and has like a 17mil option next year and Clemens is also old and year to year. They honestly dont have anything much after Oswalt. Oswalt is a clear cut ace and the right side of 30.
This effect drips down to the minors. Take Matt Kemp as a pure hypothetical (I'm not disparging his abilities as an example). In the minors, he's the best hitter on the team, so he doesn't get a lot of pitches to hit. In the majors, however, his the fifth or sixth best hitter, so he has to actually dsiplay pitch selection to show he can hit.
It's bad if the patience isn't there, but isolated patience in the minors might not directly become discipline in the majors.
Regarding the comments of some that defense is not that important, try telling that to the starting pitcher for Oklahoma City today. The centerfielder for OK City didn't get a good jump on a flyball all day long. The guy played center the way Lofton does. All those outs not made added up to extra pitches as well as extra runs.
Stan from Tacoma
On a lighter note, The HOF induction ceremony was interesting today, but how can the people that vote for the special inductees from the Negro leagues show their faces in public after overlooking wonderful Buck O'Neil. That man is such a wonderful ambassador for baseball and life in general, and not to have him inducted is a crying shame! He's a character to be cherished and I would love to see him enshrined while he is still alive to enjoy the experience. His humor, spirit and love of humans and the human race made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Yeah, but my point is that P/PA doesn't distinguish (1) foul balls from pitches taken, and thus also does not distinguish (2) foul balls that were in the strike zone from foul balls that were not in the strike zone.
So, for a given P/PA ratio, we don't know much about where the pitches were thrown, and thus don't know much about what kind of pitches the hitter is taking and swinging at. I'm simply saying it would be nice to know this information. Then we could know (for example) whether the hitter was fouling off strikes or balls. If a hitter is fouling off a lot of balls, his high P/PA ratio makes him look "disciplined," when in fact I don't think we would consider a hitter who swings at a lot of pitches outside the strike zone to be showing "discipline."
Colletti said he is not actively trying to trade Cesar Izturis
[Depodesta] said he is not actively trying to trade [Shawn Green]
http://www.greatsportsnews.com/mlb/mlbsrch.php?q=Los+Angeles+Dodgers
Thanks for the info.
Isn't the entire notion of "discipline" that a hitter does not swing at balls outside the strike zone? If so, why not just have a simple stat that is equal to the number of times a hitter swings at a pitch outside the strike zone divided by the total number of pitches thrown to that hitter outside the strike zone? This would require the stat keeper to make a judgment call as to whether the pitches were inside or outside the strike zone, but there's no reason to believe that these judgments would be any worse than those made by umpires.
Hitters with high ratios would be shown to be undisciplined, and hitters with low ratios would be shown to be disciplined.
Jeff Francouer - White Belt
to
Bobby Abreu - Black Belt
Stan from Tacoma
The Marlins? Florida is reportedly willing to part with young pitchers Yusmeiro Petit, Renyel Pinto and Jason Vargas to land Soriano. It would seem to be the height of foolishness on their part, but if it's a serious offer, they can't be completely discounted. The Dodgers and another team or two still could be involved as this one goes right down to the 4 p.m. EDT deadline.
Are the Marlins insane? The Marlins aren't going anywhere. I don't think it's true because the Nationals would have already accepted that package.
I fear that Delwyn Young is going to be traded for Greg Maddux
"Snakes on a Plane", you've got nothing on this one.
best. move. ever.
You seem to be suggesting that, in addition to "not swinging at bad pitches," "swinging at good pitches" is part of being disciplined. But how is the latter measured? How do we know that any particular pitch was a "good pitch"? The fact that a hitter got a hit doesn't necessarily mean that the pitch was a good one to swing at. And, the fact that a hitter made an out doesn't necessarily mean that the pitch was a bad one. In other words, determinations of discipline should be based on where pitches were thrown and whether or not the hitter swung at them. Anything else seems to be measuring something other than discipline, which is fine, but it should be called something else. Just looking at the number of pitches a hitter sees doesn't tell much at all about where those pitches were thrown, which to me seems like a critical piece of information when trying to determine discipline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY96vRZWwng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8k3uGzgZIs&NR
http://foxsports.foxnews.com/mlb/story/5831512
I've been away the last few days, what are the current rumors surrounding the Dodgers? And have we decided what the plans for Betemit/Laroche/Izzy/Kent are? Yes, I'm too lazy to read everything I missed, but feel free to direct me to a specific conversation.
My plan would be Betemit playing 3b this year, going to winterball to learn 2b. Next season have Laroche be the starting 3b, with izzy traded, kent at 2b and Betemit become a Bill Hall like supersub at 3b, 2b, and ss. He could get 400 ABs easily (especially with Kent being so old).
http://tinyurl.com/zp4hd
Because Animaniacs is awesome
That's good news for the Dodgers in the short term. Not having to face Schmidt 3 or 4 more times can't hurt. In the long term, having to face Lasting Millage may be tough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO41GWNePDI
Colletti wouldn't comment on specific players, saying, "Probably one deal still has some life to it and a second deal still has a touch of life."
Colletti remained steadfast that he would not part with top young players such as Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp and Russell Martin and said the Dodgers don't necessarily need to make a trade in order to win.
Cruz, by the way, should have been traded before he even finished circling the bases. His value has never been higher, and the Dodgers should accept a set of colored pencils for him while they can.
Kenny Lofton - a great leadoff man who has veteran leadership skills
Jose Cruz - a gold glove outfielder and once a 30-30 guy
Lance Carter - he was an all-star in 2003
for
Alfonso Soriano - an inexperienced outfielder whose defense appauled you at second base
"I've disliked the majority of Ned Colletti's moves to date, but picking up Betemit from the Braves for Aybar and Baez was a clear winner. Betemit hasn't even turned 25 yet -- his listed age of 26 dates back to when Atlanta signed him before his 16th birthday -- and he now has 450 at-bats over the last two seasons that say he's a fine hitter. I expect continued improvement over the next couple of years, though he may continue to struggle against left-handers. He's set to play regularly at third base for the rest of 2006, so expect something like .275-8-28."
And the thing that most people were complaining about him when he was on the big team was his lack of patience and a lot of strikeout, well it looks like he is working on that.
8 walks 10 strikeouts 463 obp 614 slg 1077 ops
On pace if he had 570 at bats 80 walks 100 strikeouts.
I can definately see him as our starting cf next year if ned doesn't go bezerk.
Pitching, pitching, pitching, ned get some pitching in the offseason, or now only by trading mediocre veterans if possible (izturis, lofton, cruz, ledee ect).
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