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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Amazing, Isn't It?
2006-07-31 08:01
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

This isn't news ... still waiting to see if there will be news ... it's just that I have to pinch myself sometimes.

The Dodgers 30-and-under lineup:

Loney, 1B
Izturis, 2B
Furcal, SS
Betemit, 3B
Ethier, LF
Repko, CF
Drew, RF
Martin, C
Penny, P

Sure, there are some drips in there, but otherwise it's a mighty fine ice cream cone, with scoops of Kemp Krackle, Luscious LaRoche and more to come ...

If you knock it out of our hands, you'd better have something to back it up with.

Comments (454)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-31 08:15:26
1.   still bevens
I had a dream last night we picked up Soriano for Repko and Izturis.
2006-07-31 08:23:23
2.   Bluebleeder87
I'd like that trade if only we sign him Long Term, We need pitching though (Zito/Schmidt '07)
2006-07-31 08:24:16
3.   Bluebleeder87
We have to drop some salary (Kent demands a trade or something)
2006-07-31 08:25:18
4.   bhsportsguy
From Will Carroll in Baseball Prospectus (about an hour ago)

The Dodgers remain buyers, discussing several deals and willing to get creative. One discussed deal for Miguel Tejada involved Rafael Furcal, but the discussions didn't get far, according to one team source.

The Dodgers have resisted including prospects in most of their discussions. "They sound like the Braves," one team source told me. "Logan White knows his system so well that people are getting a little scared to deal with them. When's the last time you saw a Braves prospect pan out?"

2006-07-31 08:31:57
5.   bhsportsguy
3 For your scenarios to work, you better hope that Schmidt doesn't get traded, its doubtful the Giants will resign him but if he gets traded, the new team might offer an extension.
2006-07-31 08:33:32
6.   bhsportsguy
I would not believe anything involving Matt Kemp, too many people like him (Logan White, Grady, and Ned often brings him up as an example of the downside of trading for a rent a player).
2006-07-31 08:39:31
7.   Andrew Shimmin
If Petit, Pinto, and Vargas really can be gotten for Soriano, Flanders should get that done. I bet that'd be enough to make Plaschke issue a fatwa, too.
2006-07-31 08:50:15
8.   Bluebleeder87
you guys think Neds brain is still working properly after 2-3 days of not sleeping properly?
2006-07-31 08:52:00
9.   Disabled List
Another bit on the Aybar-Baez-Betemit trade. Jon Heyman on SI.com:

Many people loved the Braves' acquisition of Willy Aybar along with Danys Baez for Betemit. One GM said, "Aybar is as good as Betemit, and he's younger and has a higher ceiling."

2006-07-31 09:07:24
10.   blue22
How does Aybar have a higher ceiling than Betemit? By all accounts, he has less power, worse in the field, and only just showed up on LA's prospect radar last year. Until his 26-game showcase last year in LA, he'd never had a OPS above .800. He's also only a year younger.

I don't want to trash a guy that's out of the organization, but let's not overrate Aybar.

2006-07-31 09:09:04
11.   underdog
Many people = mostly equals Braves fans and announcers and a few sportswriters. Most people I've read (scouts, other sportswriters, geeky fans I know) think the Dodgers got the better end of it. All i know is I'm happy, and I also wish Aybar well.

Meanwhile, saw this on mlbtraderumors.com:
"A report from ESPN's Amy Nelson indicates that the Dodgers are the "hottest team on Greg Maddux." According to Nelson:

"The deal would be two L.A. prospects for Maddux; one would be a position player, the other a pitcher. And both would be high-level, likely coming from their loaded Triple-A team in Las Vegas."

Well, let's have a look at Las Vegas's roster. I could see Delwyn Young as a part of this, and maybe Hong-Chih Kuo as the pitcher. Southpaw starter Greg Miller would be an impressive bounty. Anything above that - Andy LaRoche, Joel Guzman, or Matt Kemp - seems highly unlikely to me. Nelson mentions that the quality of the prospects involved increases the more the Cubs pay Maddux's salary. About $3.2MM remains; the Cubs should really just eat all of it and get one top-notch prospect.

Probably meaningless tidbit: Guzman sat out tonight's wild affair against Iowa."

I bet I'm in the minority here(? or maybe not) but I'd actually be up for a trade like that, D Young, as much as I like him, I feel like he's not going to get a chance with LA so this would be good for him, but that he's not close to being a top prospect. Kuo I'd be less happy to part with, but I'm also not convinced he's going to be anything less than erratic, powerful, wild and sometimes good.

What do you all think? Or how about... Young and Hendrickson for Maddux? ;-)

2006-07-31 09:09:53
12.   underdog
Btw, Jon, I think you got the cereal brand up there wrong - it's actually "Kemp'n Krunch."
2006-07-31 09:20:14
13.   bhsportsguy
4 BTW is anyone as confused about that anonymous quote as I am. Does that mean that, one, if the Dodgers are trading a prospect, they must know something that we don't know or two, all of their players are overhyped.
2006-07-31 09:23:07
14.   Jon Weisman
10 - "By all accounts, he has less power, worse in the field, and only just showed up on LA's prospect radar last year. "

By some accounts, Aybar has a power ceiling as good as or higher than Betemit - his doubles rate already matches Betemit's but at a younger age, meaning that in the end, his slugging percentage could end up higher. Combined with his ability to draw a walk, Aybar could end up being the superior offensive player.

By some accounts, Betemit is a mediocre fielder and Aybar is underrated.

And putting aside that some people had Aybar on their radar before last year, I'm don't see how it is relevant when Aybar showed up on the radar as a prospect. Do Joe Thurston or Billy Ashley or Chin-Feng Chen get extra points for showing up on the radar? Until fairly recently, Betemit himself was being labeled a disappointment by some, from what I've read. Should that matter?

Let's not overrate Aybar, but let's not underrate him either. A great many people like him.

2006-07-31 09:24:42
15.   tjshere
To add to 11, Rosenthal says The Dodgers, Maddux's most likely suitor, increased their pursuit of the future Hall of Famer on Sunday.

He did not, however, mention the Dodgers in the ongoing pursuit of either Soriano or Tejada.

2006-07-31 09:24:43
16.   Andrew Shimmin
13- One. It's not what he actually said, but I take it that that's what he meant, otherwise what sense would bringing the Braves in to it make?
2006-07-31 09:24:49
17.   Jon Weisman
11 - ""The deal would be two L.A. prospects for Maddux; one would be a position player, the other a pitcher. And both would be high-level, likely coming from their loaded Triple-A team in Las Vegas."

As discussed last night, even as rumors go, this one really lacks credibility.

2006-07-31 09:25:50
18.   D4P
Tom Meagher over at Fifth Outfielder thinks the Aybar deal was "just awful." Ned's moves have him to the point of being "close to deciding that I can't follow the Dodgers like a fan anymore."

http://fifthoutfielder.blogspot.com/

2006-07-31 09:28:32
19.   Disabled List
13 Yeah, I had the same problem with that quote. I think whoever said it is implying that the only prospects the Dodgers are willing to trade are the ones White knows are overrated. But that's sort of true in every trading situation, and anyway, White's not the guy on the phone negotiating the trades.

That quote makes very little sense. Carroll should clean up the context a little bit.

2006-07-31 09:39:16
20.   bhsportsguy
17 I agree with Jon, sorry to see Willy go, reiterating that I liked what I saw in Wilson's play yesterday, the fact that the pundits have split on it tell me that it could be a good deal where both players are getting fresh starts with new teams and management.
2006-07-31 09:39:48
21.   Disabled List
18 Wow, Meagher really goes off on Colletti. I think he's a little too strident (won't follow the Dodgers like a fan anymore? C'mon, Tom), but he makes some solid points:

- the Dodgers traded the younger of two comparable players
- the Dodgers traded the slumping player
- the Dodgers acquired a player whose value has been inflated with a small sample and trade-deadline buzz
- the Dodgers didn't save any money
- the Dodgers made a challenge trade with the Braves, the organization that arguably has Baseball's most impressive track record in choosing which talent to discard in trades

Another indictment of Ned as a "buy high, sell low" GM.

2006-07-31 09:41:01
22.   still bevens
18 I just cant understand getting apoplectic about dumping Baez and Aybar. I can understand being sorta miffed about giving up cash along with two players for one - but even then, not much to get in a huff about.
2006-07-31 09:41:24
23.   StolenMonkey86
A Los Angeles - Chicago trade:

The Los Angeles times sends TJ Simers and Bill Plaschke to the Chicago Sun-Times for Jay Mariotti and a columnist to be named later.

2006-07-31 09:44:27
24.   MartinBillingsley31
The only thing i'm questioning about the aybar/baez for betemit trade is the value of aybar/baez, meaning, could ned have gotten more for them.
I think betemit will ops higher than aybar, aybar will have a better obp and betemit will have a better slg and betemit's higher slg will be bigger than aybar's better obp.
2006-07-31 09:46:03
25.   gibsonhobbs88
T-3 hours 15 minutes and counting down. Will a trade be made? Will the HOF committee realize their shameful oversight and induct Buck O'Neil next year?

By the way, Yahoo Sports columnist Jeff Passan has a great article regarding Buck O'Neil's speech at the HOF yesterday.

2006-07-31 09:50:14
26.   capdodger
24

Of course, that begs of the age-old (c. 2002) question: Which is more important, and by how much: SLG or OBP?

2006-07-31 09:51:59
27.   regfairfield
26 On base, by three times according to DePo in Moneyball.
2006-07-31 09:53:19
28.   Vishal
i don't know if someone else has linked this, but there's an article on baseball twitchiness which discusses the batting compulsions of the dodgers' own nomar garciaparra:

http://www.johnfmurray.com/News.aspx?id=457

2006-07-31 09:55:12
29.   MartinBillingsley31
Of course, that begs of the age-old (c. 2002) question: Which is more important, and by how much: SLG or OBP?

Exactly.
And the way the dodgers offense is shaping up in the near future (more obp than slg) i think the slg from betemit will be more valuable.
But all in all, i see betemit as a slight upgrade over aybar, but did we have to throw in baez for that (not that i like baez, i'm just going back to the question, could ned have gotten more for aybar/baez).

2006-07-31 09:55:50
30.   capdodger
Reg- I believe in your post you misspelled "unnamed Padres executive".
2006-07-31 10:06:46
31.   blue22
14 - Sorry, "by all accounts" is one of those meaningless phrases used to mean "all the talking heads say it, so it must be true". Your point about Aybar's power being tied to his doubles is accurate.

I'm also not sure how this is a "buy high, sell low" trade. Aybar's value should be pretty high right now, given how well he's hitting the ball this year, showing home run potential for the first time (albeit in Vegas). And Betemit was considered one of the top prospects in baseball not too long ago.

To take the trade as two similar players perhaps needing a fresh start is one, but is Aybar "low" and Betemit "high"?

The effect of throwing in Baez is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

2006-07-31 10:11:43
32.   the OZ
From Will Carroll at BP, who is running down and reporting rumors throughout the morning:

"The Dodgers now seem a more likely destination for Greg Maddux than the Padres. Jim Hendry is reportedly willing to eat salary to get a prospect back, and someone like Joel Guzman or Matt Kemp is the kind of upside with questions hitter that both sides could agree on."

The Maddux-Dodgers rumor seems to be getting the most distribution. That doesn't make it anymore credible, of course. I'm not sure I see the point in even pursuing Maddux, but whatever. It's just a rumor.

2006-07-31 10:13:53
33.   Bluebleeder87
28

good read.

2006-07-31 10:14:53
34.   D4P
32
"And someone like Greg Maddux is the kind of no upside with questions pitcher Ned can agree on."
2006-07-31 10:15:18
35.   Andrew Shimmin
31- The selling low bit is about Baez. You call him a throw in; other people call Aybar the throw-in. I don't see the basis for calling either a throw-in.
2006-07-31 10:15:19
36.   Jon Weisman
I don't think a rumor about acquiring Maddux isn't credible as rumors go - I think doing it for two high-level AAA prospects isn't credible.
2006-07-31 10:17:20
37.   Bluebleeder87
"The Dodgers now seem a more likely destination for Greg Maddux than the Padres. Jim Hendry is reportedly willing to eat salary to get a prospect back, and someone like Joel Guzman or Matt Kemp is the kind of upside with questions hitter that both sides could agree on."

I can see Guzman gone, but Kemp I really doubt.

2006-07-31 10:19:05
38.   MartinBillingsley31
but Kemp I really doubt.

You're underestimating ned (flanders).

2006-07-31 10:21:42
39.   Steve
In this battle of dual personalities, will PR Flack Flanders or Baseball Flanders win?
2006-07-31 10:22:43
40.   Jon Weisman
38 - Colletti has said about a hundred times that Kemp is untouchable, and he's the one who pushed for Kemp's promotion to begin with.
2006-07-31 10:23:20
41.   Jon Weisman
40 - I should probably say "he's the one who approved" - I don't know if he's the one who "pushed."
2006-07-31 10:25:08
42.   MartinBillingsley31
40-41

Well i hope you are right.
Ned scares the hell out of me.

2006-07-31 10:25:34
43.   still bevens
40 Using the awesome logic of 'If Atlanta can promote players from AA, why can't I?', which I always found amusing.
2006-07-31 10:26:09
44.   StolenMonkey86
if I remember correctly, Kim Ng pushed for Kemp's promotion after visiting Jacksonville
2006-07-31 10:26:21
45.   Dark Horse
I had nightmares last night about giving up Guzman for Maddux.

That said, it still hasn't happened...yet.

Can't we please--please--retire the whole Nedusa/Flanders thing? It's really witless and petulant, like 'Stupidesta.'

I'll retract that plea, though, if we move a serious prospect for Maddux.

2006-07-31 10:27:09
46.   StolenMonkey86
But I saw some sources last night saying Kemp was a don't touch guy
2006-07-31 10:27:13
47.   still bevens
My mind is also blown by the fact that it seems like so many of the recent trades occurring today and yesterday have involved AA garbagemen relievers. How come we cant part with something like that for a decent major leaguer? Why do all our trade rumors involve serious AAA prospects?
2006-07-31 10:29:00
48.   Greg Brock
As one who is no particular Ned fan (a fence sitter, leaning toward the negative), I just don't believe he would trade one of our top-ceiling kids for 74 year old Greg Maddux. I'm setting myself for the fall in about 2.5 hours, but I'm going to give the mustache the benefit of the doubt.
2006-07-31 10:29:40
49.   Jon Weisman
47 - You're taking rumors seriously - that's your first mistake.
2006-07-31 10:30:31
50.   LAT
There is no way Ned would trade Kemp. After his initial explosion into the Bigs, the average fan sees Kemp as the boy who would be king, our future leader who will lead us through the desert to the promise land. I am not saying this is true but it is perception and as Steve often points out (and I agree), Ned only makes moves that can be sold in the media or ones that fly under the radar of the LAT and/or casual fan. (Such as trading Joel Whathisname, who most fans don't remember) Trading Kemp is not such a move. Such a move is too risky for a media sycophant like Ned.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-31 10:30:55
51.   Andrew Shimmin
45- I don't think Flanders is inherently pejorative. I remember Mr. Ned used to be popular but haven't seen it in a while. I wonder if that's because the source fell from grace.
2006-07-31 10:32:20
52.   still bevens
49 Indeed. Perhaps I should start doing something productive today instead of focusing on rumors. You know, something like uh, my job.
2006-07-31 10:33:41
53.   Sam DC
Crikey, I have a job! Had almost forgotten. Thanks bevens. Whew.
2006-07-31 10:34:21
54.   Dark Horse
Mr. Ned's a little funnier.

We're all a little jittery around here, though, I'd guess. When 1:30 rolls around I just pray we're all relieved. (And not by a pitcher with a 4+ ERA.)

2006-07-31 10:34:46
55.   D4P
I wonder if that's because the source fell from grace

I'm not sure the source ever really achieved "grace" around here. He started at neutral, and has fallen precipitously from there.

2006-07-31 10:35:30
56.   Bluebleeder87
Aaron Pratt is the RPS (Rock,Paper, Scissors)King
2006-07-31 10:35:59
57.   StolenMonkey86
54 - but what if we get him for Lance Carter?
2006-07-31 10:36:29
58.   Sam DC
My office has a streaming tv thing over the desktops, with a "special channel" for training programs(it's never used). During the World Cup someone switched the special channel over to ESPN.

So I just checked in -- they're showing a US RPS challenge tournament.

2006-07-31 10:38:15
59.   Sam DC
56 I guess I'm not the only one!
2006-07-31 10:39:11
60.   Bluebleeder87
45 -- I had nightmares last night about giving up Guzman for Maddux.

I've heard people say Guzman is fools gold.

2006-07-31 10:39:39
61.   StolenMonkey86
I keep hitting refresh at Inside the Dodgers. Nothing yet.
2006-07-31 10:40:55
62.   still bevens
56 I was impressed with the amount of beer that was consumed during that program. Glad to see the RPS combatants are serious about what they do.
2006-07-31 10:44:32
63.   bhsportsguy
47 Partly that is due (at least rumor wise) because of the talent in the system, you just aim higher when dealing with the Dodgers, Angels or D-Backs.

In a deal that did not get a lot of press due to the depth of the Angels system was a deal for AAA/MLB reliever Jason Bulger for Alberto Callaspo, who was listed behind Kendrick, Ayber and Wood but still a top ten prospect and he has done nothing but solidify his status with his AAA season with Arizona.

My point is that for the first time in several, several years, the Dodgers have a system that is producing talent, all that talk about the Dodgers always trading prospects is simply not true, sure did they trade Konerko and Pedro, yes, but they also traded Diggins and Rodriquez.

This year is the first test of several where the Dodgers will be tested in how they use their prospects, now sure, some will be moved because maybe there are others they value higher or there are simply needs at the MLB level that are no players in their system can deal with at this time.

Just a little more than 2 hours to go, so we will see how this plays out.

2006-07-31 10:44:54
64.   Bluebleeder87
59 I guess I'm not the only one!

I'm watching ESPN as well see if anything happens.

2006-07-31 10:45:40
65.   regfairfield
After seeing the insanity of this weekend, I'm a little upset we didn't get more for Baez. Middle relievers have given teams Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez and Bobby Abreu. Baez being basically a throw in on a Betemit for Aybar deal is a little sad in comparison.
2006-07-31 10:46:31
66.   underdog
36 No, I agree, and I think the mlbtraderumors blogger thought so, too. What would be more credible is trading someone like Young for Maddux. Not credible: Kemp, or Guzman or.. any of the supposed untouchables. I really do believe Colletti is sticking to his guns on those players and that's what they haven't gotten Soriano or those sorts.

Now, Maddux for Lance Carter and Young, that sounds okay to me. Addition by subtraction!

As for the Betamint Gum for Baez and Aybar trade, I really do think that's one of those trades that's good for both teams and should be left at that. The Braves needed relief pitching, and the Dodgers offered Baez for Betamit. The Braves in turn said, we need someone to then replace Betamit, and this deal won't get done unless Aybar is thrown in. I'm sure this is the basics of it all. I wish Baez and Aybar the best. But I'm happy with Betamit. I don't know what else the Dodgers need to do to compete this season, but my eyes are on the future and so far, none of the untouchables have been touched, so the future still looks bright.

2006-07-31 10:46:46
67.   bhsportsguy
I am assuming that Dodgers left for Cincy this morning so I would not expect any deals for any players on the 25 man roster but who knows, I guess at least that player would be packed already so he could get on a plane and go to his new team.
2006-07-31 10:49:32
68.   Midwest Blue
39 PR Flack Flanders : Baseball Flanders :: Relationship George : Independent George ??
2006-07-31 10:50:04
69.   bhsportsguy
65 You have to look at things like contracs and how long a team can keep a player under their control, one reason I thought Baez was a candidate to be moved was that he was a free agent at the end of the year.

But because he is a free agent and arbitration eligible (and despite what we may think, he probably is no worse than a 5 million dollar a year player), he does not have the cache of younger pitchers that are not arbitration eligible yet, which are exactly the type of pitchers that the Reds got from Washington.

2006-07-31 10:51:49
70.   regfairfield
69 True. That complaint wasn't entirely serious anyway.
2006-07-31 10:54:21
71.   Bluebleeder87
65 Baez being basically a throw in on a Betemit for Aybar deal is a little sad in comparison

you think Saito can bring somebody in (his sealing is really high right now) how about Kou?

2006-07-31 10:57:06
72.   regfairfield
71 My first wish is trade Izturis. After that, Saito and Nomar can go.
2006-07-31 10:57:13
73.   D4P
I'll be glad when all this trade talk is over with and Bob can come back.
2006-07-31 11:00:14
74.   Sam DC
So, turns out there's actually a game being played right now. Utley 0-2.
2006-07-31 11:03:50
75.   Greg Brock
The rumor mongering has reached a fever-pitch. Olney and the folks talking about Andrew Jones to Boston for Hansen/Crisp, maybe even Lester as well...Yeah, right.
2006-07-31 11:04:56
76.   ToyCannon
Will Carrol loses crediblilty when he suggests the Dodgers might be moving JtD or Kemp for Maddox. As someone pointed out it might be D Young who would be top 10 prospect in the Cub organization but were not dealing a top 20 overall prospect for an over the hill HOF pitcher. If this turns out to be true I'll be the most shocked and dissapointed Ned backer here.
I would not be surprised to see LaRoche and Guzman moved but not for Maddox.
2006-07-31 11:06:54
77.   regfairfield
If you need a distraction, follow the Pirates for the next couple hours and see how badly they bomb the trade deadline.
2006-07-31 11:10:39
78.   JoeyP
Meagher echoes my thoughts perfectly regarding Colletti overall. The Aybar deal only makes sense if you buy the hype from scouts regarding Betemit. The scouts like Betemit, they dont like Aybar. However, their minor league careers parallel each other rather closely, with Aybar having a large upper hand in plate discipline, and Betemit hitting 9Hrs this year.

But onto other news.

The Tigers traded for 1b Sean Casey, and in the process sent Chris Shelton to AAA. This is the type of move that deserves negative reprecussions for the Tigers. Its just ridiculously stupid. I can only hope their abnormally lucky season crashes, and that both the White Sox and Twins catch them.

2006-07-31 11:12:26
79.   JoeyP
follow the Pirates for the next couple hours

They moved Casey off the payroll, so I think they've already won.

2006-07-31 11:14:42
80.   regfairfield
Tthey've still have Craig Wilson, and a couple others who need to be moved.

Moving Shelton to AAA is a blow to my fantasy team.

2006-07-31 11:15:40
81.   bhsportsguy
78 C'mon Joey, at some point scouts have to mean something or else the slide rule nerds would run the world.
2006-07-31 11:16:49
82.   JoeyP
Whats the rationale for the Tigers taking on Sean Casey's contract, giving him 1st base, and putting Shelton at AAA?

Is the difference between Shelton and Casey going to make an ounce of difference for the Tigers?

2006-07-31 11:17:52
83.   still bevens
I think the Orioles have done well to position themselves for a poor showing come the deadline. If you believe all the rumors they effectively missed out on combinations of the following:

Roy Oswalt
Morgan Ensberg
Adam Everett
Hank Blalock
John Danks
Joaquin Arias
Possible return booty for trading Blalock or Ensberg

2006-07-31 11:18:00
84.   the OZ
81 Slide-rule nerds DID run the world from 1949-1978. Then pocket-calculater nerd took over from 1979-1994. Now, Excel-spreadsheet nerds run the world. Get used to it.
2006-07-31 11:18:39
85.   regfairfield
82 Nope, it's a tremendously bad move. Maybe they assume Dmitri Young will be in jail soon.

While Shelton was sent down, they continue to let Craig Monroe and his .276 on base swing the bat.

2006-07-31 11:18:59
86.   bhsportsguy
82 Veteran leadership and clubhouse chemistry. It also gives them someone closer to Leyland's age so Jim can have someone to talk too.
2006-07-31 11:19:23
87.   Andrew Shimmin
78- Better to say that you agree with him than that he "echoes your thoughts."
2006-07-31 11:21:46
88.   JoeyP
While Shelton was sent down, they continue to let Craig Monroe and his .276 on base swing the bat

Brandon Inge and Polanco have bad OBP's too. I'm beginning to wonder how the Tigers have a 70-34 record. Have they beating the Royals every single time or something? If any team is due for a big let down, it has to be them.

2006-07-31 11:22:00
89.   Telemachos
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but from SI.com:

The Dodgers are talking to the Nats about a deal that might send top third base prospect Andy La Roche and two other prospects east for Soriano.

2006-07-31 11:23:13
90.   regfairfield
88 They hit the jack, and they play really good defense. I refuse to comment on their starting pitching.
2006-07-31 11:23:17
91.   Sushirabbit
On the good news front, everyone can thank me for JD Drew's power resurgence. When he came up with the bases loaded, I knew he would get the granny. Why? Because I had just dropped him from my fantasy league, 9 HRs this year; I drop him and he gets 2 in three games.
2006-07-31 11:23:30
92.   Bluebleeder87
87

"echoes your thoughts" sounds more creative though.

2006-07-31 11:23:55
93.   Sushirabbit
89 that would not surprise me at all.
2006-07-31 11:25:20
94.   Sushirabbit
Maybe Ned's gonna trade for Shelton. :-)
2006-07-31 11:26:06
95.   King of the Hobos
Casey's also a left handed bat, which the Tigers really wanted.

89 I would think Bowden would be more interested in other players that don't play the same position as Zimmerman. In any case, I hope that's just a rumor.

2006-07-31 11:26:42
96.   bhsportsguy
89 And ESPN said that the Dodgers were dead and only the Marlins have the pitching prospects that the Nationals crave.

I have not gauged how accurate anyone is on their rumor reporting but cnnsi.com does not appear to have a good track record.

2006-07-31 11:29:16
97.   Andrew Shimmin
92- That's the problem. It's perfectly acceptable when the thoughts in question really are at all likely to have come from the party saying they echo his own. When there's no reason to believe that, as here, it sounds as though that party is claiming credit for something to which he has no claim.
2006-07-31 11:31:02
98.   Sam DC
91 I'm sorry, that's too funny.

You know what word you don't hear very much these days?

Smartball.

I can't remember the last time I heard that.

2006-07-31 11:34:40
99.   regfairfield
98 Is there a more fortunate team than the White Sox in recent years? Last year, they get career years from all their pitchers, and win a World Series.

This year, their pitching goes to hell, but then Joe Crede, A.J. Pierzynski, and Jermaine Dye start mashing.

2006-07-31 11:38:36
100.   Bluebleeder87
96 I have not gauged how accurate anyone is on their rumor reporting but cnnsi.com does not appear to have a good track record.

they have a thing were they have pictures of the "nastiest pitches" & they don't have Gagne's offspeed pitch. I don't get it.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-31 11:38:40
101.   Sam DC
Utley singles.
2006-07-31 11:39:02
102.   JoeyP
Is there another GM that could have gotten less for Abreu and Thome than the Phils GM did?

If I was a Phils fan, I'd want a regime change.

2006-07-31 11:40:02
103.   Eric Stephen
John Manuel in an ESPN chat said "the Joel Guzmans, James Loneys and Justin Orenduffs of the organization should probably be available for the right piece(s)," and mentioned his only untouchables (of Dodger minor leaguers) are Scott Elbert, Blake DeWitt, and Matt Kemp.
2006-07-31 11:40:05
104.   the OZ
99 Well, Pierzynski isn't exactly out of line with his career numbers - his recent streak of 8 hits in his last 9 ABs has sent his OPS just north of .800, but for the bulk of the season it's been in the high .700s, which is more or les the norm for him.

But yeah, Crede and Dye and having great seasons.

2006-07-31 11:40:46
105.   the OZ
99 Well, Pierzynski isn't exactly out of line with his career numbers - his recent streak of 8 hits in his last 9 ABs has sent his OPS just north of .800, but for the bulk of the season it's been in the high .700s, which is more or les the norm for him.

But yeah, Crede and Dye and having great seasons.

2006-07-31 11:42:17
106.   Rainman
89. Hope that's not true - if we're giving up LaRoche, I'd hope it'd be for more than a rent-a-player, because even if we sneak into the playoffs, this ain't our year. If they can get him with an extension, fine, but I just don't think we've got enough, even with him, to justify giving up an elite guy for two months of a rent-a-player.
2006-07-31 11:43:14
107.   bhsportsguy
103 Well Orenduff is hurt and the other 2 do get question marks from both scouts and stats guys so I guess that would be true.

Guzman still is the only top ten prospect that is mentioned as being available.

2006-07-31 11:45:27
108.   Johnson
89 Does sending LaRoche to the Nationals even make sense? Why logjam him behind Zimmerman?
2006-07-31 11:47:50
109.   Blu2
102 Yes! And we all know him well...
2006-07-31 11:49:04
110.   the OZ
I know the deal hasn't happened, and probably won't happen, but which one of us picked "a 40-year old pitcher" in the "who will Joel Guzman be traded for?" pool last year?

[looks around]

Anyone? Anyone?

2006-07-31 11:50:25
111.   Greg Brock
You really can't look at the Phillies deals that way. Gillick is trying to clear payroll, and rebuild that organization from the ground up. I'm not saying he got the most, but sometimes other teams are higher on minor league players than scouts and "experts" are.
2006-07-31 11:52:29
112.   regfairfield
102 I think the Thome deal was solid, given the season he was coming off of, but he should have been able to get something besides nothing for Abreu.
2006-07-31 11:52:46
113.   trainwreck
103
That is great news. I do not have to worry about Elbert or DeWitt, but I do have to worry about Andy LaRoche.
2006-07-31 11:53:18
114.   Sushirabbit
108 No, not unless you're planning to move Zimmerman or Laroche in a three way trade.

98 Yeah, it's HIGHlarious. Really, it is always my luck. Sheets sucks, I trade him, then he takes off; someone offers me another player that's been good all season, I bite, then he tails. The sad thing is that I've come to acceptance not only about the Dodgers but my own fantasy team!
(it really is funny, though)

2006-07-31 11:54:53
115.   blue22
Padres get Todd Walker for 3rd base. Looks like they won't be giving up much, and his salary is being paid for by the Cubs.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9579681

2006-07-31 11:56:30
116.   Greg Brock
A)We have no idea what Gillick was offered.
B)Abreu had a complete no tradeclause, and would only wave it for the Yankees (he said so publicly).
C) Everybody on that team not named Utley and Howard are gone at the end of this year (pitching staff not withstanding).
2006-07-31 11:57:03
117.   Blu2
115 Maybe that means Izzy is going to them in a trade...
2006-07-31 11:58:53
118.   JoeyP
Thats a good deal for the Padres.
They probably get some picks for Todd Walker at the end of the year too.
2006-07-31 11:59:38
119.   Midwest Blue
115 From the same article:

"Meanwhile, on another Cubs front, talks surrounding right-hander Greg Maddux appear tepid at best. The Padres remain interested, and a source with knowledge of the talks say the Los Angeles Dodgers are only minimally interested."

I hope by minimally interested they mean "will not give up one of our best prospects for an over-the-hill HOF."

2006-07-31 11:59:51
120.   xaphor
[115] From the same article:

talks surrounding right-hander Greg Maddux appear tepid at best. The Padres remain interested, and a source with knowledge of the talks say the Los Angeles Dodgers are only minimally interested.

2006-07-31 12:00:09
121.   natepurcell
from that same link in 115

Meanwhile, on another Cubs front, talks surrounding right-hander Greg Maddux appear tepid at best. The Padres remain interested, and a source with knowledge of the talks say the Los Angeles Dodgers are only minimally interested.

2006-07-31 12:00:34
122.   xaphor
Gadzooks :)
2006-07-31 12:00:40
123.   natepurcell
ha. at 119-121
2006-07-31 12:01:08
124.   Marty
Where's D4P when you need him.
2006-07-31 12:01:32
125.   trainwreck
This is all such great news haha. I can go back to class and not be worried.
2006-07-31 12:01:59
126.   Greg Brock
Hey, did anybody hear that the Dodgers are only minimally interested in Maddux?
2006-07-31 12:03:18
127.   Rainman
No, that's not true. I hear they're minimally interested.
2006-07-31 12:03:40
128.   capdodger
119 120 121

That's exciting non-news.

2006-07-31 12:03:57
129.   bhsportsguy
118 Do you think they would offer arbitration to Walker?
2006-07-31 12:04:39
130.   natepurcell
I hope the Twins get Soriano.
2006-07-31 12:05:29
131.   D4P
Where's D4P when you need him

Heh heh. I don't want to wear out the joke...

2006-07-31 12:05:41
132.   the OZ
I hope Soriano gets traded to the Tigers.

The Hanshin Tigers.

2006-07-31 12:06:15
133.   Greg Brock
If the Twins get Soriano, iron out those Homer Hankies for October.
2006-07-31 12:07:37
134.   the OZ
Update from Will Carroll, in the spirit of "minimal interest":

"One interesting note on Greg Maddux: Indications are that Maddux himself was involved in the discussions, with his agent, Scott Boras, doing more looking around than Jim Hendry. Both sides understood the parameters under which a deal could be done. The relationship between Boras and the Cubs is a good one--something that we should remember when free agency kicks in this offseason. "

2006-07-31 12:08:25
135.   Steve
C'mon, Flanders. Hang up the phone, go to lunch. There's nothing out there. Come home and we'll build a dynasty together. You're with me, National League West.
2006-07-31 12:09:06
136.   bigcpa
Per Fox Sports Duaner Sanchez is out for the year with a separated pitching shoulder.
2006-07-31 12:10:10
137.   MartinBillingsley31
Espn keeps saying the Nats want multiple pitching prospects for soriano.

So it seems if ned wants soriano, he'll have to give up both billingsley and elbert if not another prospect.

That's just insane.

I've got a feeling ned will unload a dead weight veteran player or 2 for a legit prospects and come out and say to the media that we tried to upgrade the team this season but nothing made sense/too much was asked, so we traded this guy and that guy because we felt they didn't have a future in our organization and we in turn boosted our future a little bit.
And i wouldn't be surprised if izturis was 1 of the 2 guys traded.

2006-07-31 12:11:41
138.   bigcpa
Stark says Roberto Hernandez and Oliver Perez to the Mets is close.
2006-07-31 12:11:51
139.   LAT
Anyone see Duaner involved a taxi cab accident which will keep him out the rest of the season.

Go to fox.com

2006-07-31 12:13:04
140.   still bevens
Oliver Perez? The last time that guy was good was on MVP 2005 for my PS2.
2006-07-31 12:14:08
141.   MartinBillingsley31
Espn also says that the twins have the pitching prospects needed to land soriano.
2006-07-31 12:14:20
142.   natepurcell
I wouldnt have minded Roberto Hernandez. Hes old but probably would come pretty cheap and is still effective and appease the regular fan.
2006-07-31 12:14:24
143.   bigcpa
I've got a feeling ned will unload a dead weight veteran player or 2 for a legit prospects.

Isn't that the reverse of the Seo/Navarro deal?

2006-07-31 12:17:35
144.   Greg Brock
Nady for Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez. Perez is young, has electric stuff, and intrigues me.
2006-07-31 12:17:46
145.   MartinBillingsley31
Isn't that the reverse of the Seo/Navarro deal?

Exactly, i think ned will do it.
He's already satisfied the regular/casual fan by so called upgrading this season, now he needs to satisfy the stats fan.

2006-07-31 12:19:58
146.   blue22
144 - There must be another deal, or NY is going with Milledge down the stretch. Their outfield is Floyd/Beltran/Endy Chavez right now.
2006-07-31 12:20:33
147.   bhsportsguy
I emailed Will Carroll and got this response in regards to this quote that I highlighted earlier today.

The Dodgers have resisted including prospects in most of their discussions. "They sound like the Braves," one team source told me. "Logan White knows his system so well that people are getting a little scared to deal with them. When's the last time you saw a Braves prospect pan out?"

I asked him if he meant one, teams should be wary of dealing with the Dodgers because they know their prospects so well, if they are willing to trade one of them beware because they might know something you don't know or two, are the Dodger prospects overhyped and not worth as much as you think.

Will said that it was the first answer, Logan White and the Dodgers are really good judges of their talent so if they are willing to trade one of them to you, look first before you leap. In otherwords, it was a compliment to the Dodgers.

2006-07-31 12:20:39
148.   Daniel Zappala
When the trading deadline is close, which position would you rather be in.

Dodgers fan: We have a fantastic farm system, please please please don't screw it up.

Yankees fan: We have no farm system, so just spend whatever it takes to get what we need to win now.

Feel free to answer from a hypothetical, philosophical, theological, or any other perspective.

2006-07-31 12:22:06
149.   regfairfield
148 Yankee fan. It doesn't matter that you don't have prospects, people just give your their best players anyway and don't ask for the few talents you do have.
2006-07-31 12:23:01
150.   Jon Weisman
I just want to shout out to 103 Eric Stephen, one of my original readers (unless there are multiple Eric Stephens).
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-31 12:23:43
151.   Bluebleeder87
less than half an hour to go.
2006-07-31 12:23:52
152.   thinkblue0
If Izturis and Lofton are still on this team in thirty mins then this trade deadline is a failure.
2006-07-31 12:26:25
153.   Disabled List
147 Thanks for that.
2006-07-31 12:26:48
154.   bhsportsguy
152 Lofton will pass through waivers so I am not too concerned about that and I don't think you just give up Izzy unless you get something more than medium grade prospects.
2006-07-31 12:27:10
155.   MartinBillingsley31
If Izturis and Lofton are still on this team in thirty mins then this trade deadline is a failure.

I agree, my PTIAL (please trade izturis and lofton) campaign is running out of time.

Ned should trade them for a legit prospect.

2006-07-31 12:28:36
156.   Rainman
155. Would Lofton actually get a legit prospect for Lofton at this point? Highly doubt it.
2006-07-31 12:29:14
157.   bhsportsguy
150 Jon, I try real hard to limit pasting from subscription sites but I thought it was an interesting passage and the fact that the Dodgers (Logan White) are getting the rep of only dealing players that don't project too highly is very interesting.
2006-07-31 12:29:48
158.   Andrew Shimmin
154- I've been meaning to ask this for a long time, but kept forgetting: what are BH sports?
2006-07-31 12:31:16
159.   bhsportsguy
No question if Kent was healthy, there might be more of a push to deal Izzy to his old team Toronto but since he is out for another 2 weeks, I think they have to wait and see.

Also, there is a possilbility that Izzy would pass through waivers too, so a trade in a couple of weeks is certainly possible.

2006-07-31 12:32:01
160.   Eric Stephen
150 Thanks for the shout out Jon! Your site is a must-read for me on a daily basis.
2006-07-31 12:32:41
161.   the OZ
158 I'm guessing BH= Beverly Hills, or maybe British Humor.
2006-07-31 12:33:14
162.   bhsportsguy
158 The BH initially stood for two things, where I worked (Beverly Hills) and where I grew up (Baldwin Hills area of LA), now it just stands for Baldwin Hills.
2006-07-31 12:33:18
163.   Jon Weisman
157 - I don't mind short excerpts like that, that will encourage people to check out the other sites - subscription or not.
2006-07-31 12:34:30
164.   Bluebleeder87
160

when did you first start coming here?

I just started like 3 months or so ago.

2006-07-31 12:34:46
165.   Daniel Zappala
I always thought it stood for "bit hungry", as in "I'm a bit hungry for sports today, let me go and check out Dodger Thoughts".
2006-07-31 12:36:33
166.   Andrew Shimmin
162- Thanks.
2006-07-31 12:38:01
167.   bhsportsguy
We are down to the Rangers getting Matt Stairs from KC deals.
2006-07-31 12:40:19
168.   MartinBillingsley31
Can we actually exhale at 1 pm pacific time, or can a trade still be happening but not yet reported?
2006-07-31 12:41:57
169.   Greg Brock
Deals get done, come through the Commish office, and get publicized. Deals will be reported up to an hour/hour and a half after the deadline.
2006-07-31 12:42:11
170.   thinkblue0
167-

If Soriano isn't gone in 19 mins I'll be furious. I'm sooooooo sick of ESPN saying for weeks that a guy is DEFINITELY getting traded then it doesn't happen.

last year it was Burnett, now Soriano.

2006-07-31 12:44:31
171.   Bluebleeder87
So did the Royals sign Hochevera?
2006-07-31 12:44:52
172.   bhsportsguy
168 If the deal involves cash considerations, I believe the League office as to sign off on it.

Also, if the deal involved a team like the Dodgers who are traveling, they may want to inform the players before releasing it to the press.

But I do think for the most part, if we don't hear about it within the next hour so, nothing probably happened.

2006-07-31 12:45:09
173.   regfairfield
170 I plan on having a hearty laugh at Jim Bowden's expense.
2006-07-31 12:46:12
174.   Eric Stephen
164 I'm not sure how long I've been reading Jon's writing, but at least a couple of years of almost daily lurking.

168 If I remember correctly from past years, some deals get reported as late as a few hours past the deadline. I think the 1pm deadline is for filing paperwork through the commish's office.

2006-07-31 12:46:43
175.   thinkblue0
173-

he's had weeks to get something for him, now he's on the verge of getting nothing.

2006-07-31 12:47:53
176.   Humma Kavula
175 nothing... except draft picks.
2006-07-31 12:48:52
177.   MartinBillingsley31
Darn we might have to wait a few more hours then.
This waiting is killing me.
2006-07-31 12:49:17
178.   still bevens
167 Lets not allow Charley Steiner and Rick Monday off the hook for the never ending barrage of 'THIS IS POSSIBLY THE (third to last/second to last/absolute final) TIME WE SEE SORIANO IN A NATIONALS UNIFORM.' during the game yesterday.
2006-07-31 12:49:29
179.   natepurcell
176

With Rizzo in the fold, those draft picks will probably be pretty good too.

2006-07-31 12:49:37
180.   JoeyP
Maybe Bowden feels 2 1st round picks will amount to more than what Soriano would bring in a trade?
2006-07-31 12:49:42
181.   bhsportsguy
170 Well, there is no secret that Bowden was/is trying to deal him but if he doesn't get what he wants, what is he supposed to do?

ESPN and other news outlets have been reporting that he is going to be dealt primarily because he is a high profile free agent who is playing for a non-contender and Soriano has made no secret that he wants to explore his free agent value after this season. That is the News side of the story.

The hard thing is that ESPN has also become home for commentators whose job is to give opinions (which are not News) but gives the appearance of fact but all it is a speculation.

2006-07-31 12:49:55
182.   Jon Weisman
174 - I feel like you go back to the days when I only had about 40 readers total ... mid 2003. Did you find the site through Baseball Primer?
2006-07-31 12:49:59
183.   thinkblue0
176-

which actually isn't good for a player of his caliber....you should be able to get a package of players worth more than the picks.

If reports are true then the O's are idiots. They turned down Ervin Santana and Aybar for Tejada? Really?

2006-07-31 12:51:11
184.   Eric L
167 Isn't that how it always goes at this time of the year?
2006-07-31 12:51:32
185.   natepurcell
If reports are true then the O's are idiots. They turned down Ervin Santana and Aybar for Tejada? Really?

Worse, they turned down ROY OSWALT.

2006-07-31 12:53:32
186.   regfairfield
We all laughed at Jim Bowden when he pulled off this trade, and against all odds, it actually turned out well for him.

If all he can get for Wilkerson and Sledge is a useless season from Soriano, and two draft picks, that's really bad.

2006-07-31 12:53:46
187.   Greg Brock
If I were Beattie or Flanagan, I think I'd shoot myself. Angelos is an absolute nightmare of an owner.
2006-07-31 12:54:09
188.   thinkblue0
Well, there is no secret that Bowden was/is trying to deal him but if he doesn't get what he wants, what is he supposed to do?

He's supposed to deal him. He's gotta realize at this point he's asking for too much. If he doesn't get dealt, then I feel sorry for the Nats fans for not getting anything back for one of the best players in the game.

The hard thing is that ESPN has also become home for commentators whose job is to give opinions (which are not News) but gives the appearance of fact but all it is a speculation.

I'm pretty good at differentiating between fact and opinion. These guys have said over and over and over that things are "done" when they're not. A week or so ago a headline on espn.com on a wednesday was "Bonds to be indicted Thursday". Didn't happen.

There are tons of examples like this. They report things as being "done" over and over and they don't happen. It's irresponsible. I heard Buster Olney at like 2AM on the radio say something like "Soriano will absolutely definitely be traded tomorrow". No "I think" or anything. ESPN has just been jumping the gun on everything the last couple years and it's getting really, really old.

2006-07-31 12:54:17
189.   bigcpa
182 Hey I broke in April 2003. I have the email trail to prove it! Back then Jon's only competition was Sarah Morris and some guy Dodger Kid with a potty mouth.
2006-07-31 12:55:52
190.   Jon Weisman
181 - Very well said.

If you hang breathlessly on every rumor, you're feeding the beast. How can you expect broadcasters to dial down the chatter when there is clearly such an appetite for it?

Most readers and viewers don't hold the media accountable for spreading rumors. If anything, they seem to encourage it. I once wrote a piece on DT criticizing how loose the reporting was during Hot Stove season - that piece received more criticism than almost anything I've written.

If you've been taking the rumors seriously, you're part of the problem. If you want reporting you can trust, reporting that doesn't rely on unnamed sources that aren't even in on the conversations, you have to act like it while the bad reporting is going on.

2006-07-31 12:56:00
191.   Uncle Miltie
Rule 1: Don't deal with Jim Bowden. He has turned into a good GM (at least during this deadline)

I'd do Izturis and Guzman for Soriano, but I doubt the Nats would. I think the draft picks would be more valuable than those 2 players.

If Ned wants to win the division, he should let the Padres acquire Greg Maddux.

2006-07-31 12:56:40
192.   natepurcell
Craig Wilson for Shawn Chacon.

who is our Chacon?

2006-07-31 12:58:00
193.   Jon Weisman
Yeah, BigCPA's one of the originals, too.
2006-07-31 12:58:21
194.   regfairfield
192 And the Yankees win again. Sele or Hendrickson wasn't good enough?
2006-07-31 12:58:28
195.   bhsportsguy
Nate: Matt Garza and Scott Baker for Soriano, that is what Bowden wants according to Will Carroll, Twins wanted to sub Kubel for Garza but that was rebuffed. What do you think, also Soriano has reportedly said that he will not negotiate anything during the season.
2006-07-31 12:59:24
196.   trainwreck
Well I am very happy with us doing no deals.
2006-07-31 12:59:50
197.   Greg Brock
Kubel is gonna be a masher, but I wouldn't trade Garza for almost anybody. That kid is legit.
2006-07-31 12:59:57
198.   natepurcell
take Kubel and Baker and run with it Bowden! you crazy idiot!
2006-07-31 13:00:11
199.   thinkblue0
If you've been taking the rumors seriously, you're part of the problem. If you want reporting you can trust, reporting that doesn't rely on unnamed sources that aren't even in on the conversations, you have to act like it while the bad reporting is going on.

I'm not talking about taking rumors seriously, I'm talking about ESPN reporting stuff as done when it's not.

This isn't just a baseball thing either, they do it with everything. Like I pointed out about the Bonds indictment...last year they said the AJ Burnett deal was "done" about 20 times. Remember when Sheffield signed with the Yanks a couple years ago and ESPN officially reported it with a picture of Sheffield in a Yankees cap? That wasn't even done at the time. It took literally a week after that to get done and they weren't even sure.

I have fun with rumors but I don't take them as more than rumors. What I have a problem with is ESPN reporting this stuff as being done when it's not.

2006-07-31 13:01:08
200.   bhsportsguy
198 What do you really think?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-31 13:01:13
201.   Jon Weisman
188 - "These guys have said over and over and over that things are "done" when they're not."

Yep. Now you know for the future. It's not enough for someone to come on the air and say this stuff. They need to provide an on-the-record source.

2006-07-31 13:01:16
202.   Eric Stephen
168, 182 I think I did come over through Baseball Primer. I can't pinpoint the exact time or reason, but it was either a response to one of your comments in a Dodger thread there, or from a link to one of your blog posts.

I used to keep an Excel spreadsheet of the Dodger roster/organization, with payroll data (still do), and I was pleased to find that someone else was interested enough in the Dodgers to keep track of that. I've been hooked ever since.

2006-07-31 13:01:23
203.   thinkblue0
192-

how do the yankees keep making these trades?

2006-07-31 13:03:02
204.   thinkblue0
201-

Yep. Now you know for the future. It's not enough for someone to come on the air and say this stuff. They need to provide an on-the-record source.

Agreed. ESPN had just become an outlet that I'd trust because I had no reason not to. So, up until a couple years ago when this stuff started I had no reason not to believe someone who made a report on camera.

Any more last minute deals?

2006-07-31 13:03:48
205.   bigcpa
Can someone explain why ESPN cut away from their Trade Deadline special to run an Outside the Lines piece on Mark McGwire's HOF chances from 12:40 to 1PM? Then at 1 they go to an NFL show. Tejada, Zito and Soriano deals could go down and they have no one there to discuss it. Bizarre.
2006-07-31 13:04:21
206.   Greg Brock
204 Deals will be trickling in for the next hour or so.
2006-07-31 13:05:30
207.   bigcpa
We got Maddux. Not sure for whom.
2006-07-31 13:07:30
208.   bigcpa
Whoa! For Izzy!
2006-07-31 13:07:50
209.   Daniel Zappala
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5832966

Maddux and cash to the Dodgers, no word on who goes the other way.

2006-07-31 13:08:16
210.   natepurcell
booo.
2006-07-31 13:08:30
211.   thinkblue0
208-

SOURCE!!?!?!?

2006-07-31 13:08:47
212.   regfairfield
207 If it was for a Ragliani level player, that's fine. I was really upset I missed Maddux this season, this gives me one last chance to see him.
2006-07-31 13:09:46
213.   regfairfield
207 If it was for a Ragliani level player, that's fine. I was really upset I missed Maddux this season, this gives me one last chance to see him.
2006-07-31 13:10:37
214.   bigcpa
211 cnnSI
2006-07-31 13:10:55
215.   regfairfield
207 If it was for a Ragliani level player, that's fine. I was really upset I missed Maddux this season, this gives me one last chance to see him.
2006-07-31 13:11:53
216.   Uncle Miltie
Why Ned, why? Please don't be any good prospects. Is Maddux really an upgrade over guys like Sele or Hendrickson? Please don't be Kuo or Miller. Delwyn Young has to be part of the deal.
2006-07-31 13:12:29
217.   regfairfield
207 If it was for a Ragliani level player, that's fine. I was really upset I missed Maddux this season, this gives me one last chance to see him.
2006-07-31 13:12:55
218.   Eric L
The text from cnnSI:

Greg Maddux has been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers for infielder Cesar Izturis, SI.com has learned.

2006-07-31 13:13:48
219.   trainwreck
YES! lol
2006-07-31 13:13:52
220.   bigcpa
Greg Maddux has been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers for infielder Cesar Izturis, SI.com has learned

http://tinyurl.com/q54wa

2006-07-31 13:14:12
221.   natepurcell
what the hell. Maddux for Izturis.
2006-07-31 13:14:12
222.   D4P
Greg Maddux is going to the Dodgers as the Cubs deal the future Hall of Famer to L.A. for infielder Cesar Izturis, CBS SportsLine.com's Scott Miller has learned.
2006-07-31 13:14:24
223.   regfairfield
207 If it was for a Ragliani level player, that's fine. I was really upset I missed Maddux this season, this gives me one last chance to see him.
2006-07-31 13:14:51
224.   capdodger
168,182,202

I think I came over from Baseball Primer (after reading Billy Beane's book) at about the trade deadline of the '04 season. It was a way to escape the anti-depodestians during the "troubles". I didn't post until much later though.

2006-07-31 13:14:59
225.   Sam DC
Meanwhile, ESPN has a little feature on the impact of Reggie White's jump to Green Bay on NFL free agency.
2006-07-31 13:15:02
226.   Uncle Miltie
Are you freaking kidding me? I'm not a big Izturis fan, but Ned just got taken to the cleaners. I'm sure we could have gotten far more in a package deal.
2006-07-31 13:15:20
227.   thinkblue0
this is a great, great trade. Getting Izturis out of the lineup every day is addition by subtraction.

It's too bad Hendrickson didn't get jettisoned in the process.

2006-07-31 13:15:33
228.   natepurcell
So the Padres give up a 19 yr old pitcher with crappy numbers in rookieball for todd walker and we have to give up a bonafide big league SS in izturis for maddux. Unbelievable.
2006-07-31 13:15:37
229.   D4P
So, who plays 2B until Kent comes back...?
2006-07-31 13:15:45
230.   regfairfield
Stupid browser. I'm down with Maddux for Izzy.
2006-07-31 13:15:52
231.   bhsportsguy
CBS Sportsline is reporting Maddux for Izzy, no mention of any other players involved.
2006-07-31 13:15:55
232.   blue22
Maddux for Izturis, but LA must also be paying Cesar's salary for next year, because the deal involves more than $1M cash changing hands (need commish's approval).

If there's a "Ned Trade Trend", it's his willingness to drop a few mill in every trade to cover salaries. Disturbing, but in lieu of more prospects, not a bad strategy.

2006-07-31 13:16:13
233.   Eric L
Robothal is reporting the trade as well...

http://tinyurl.com/q9kk2

2006-07-31 13:16:29
234.   Greg Brock
And Dodger Thoughts participants melt down in 5...4...3...2...1
2006-07-31 13:16:45
235.   MartinBillingsley31
Wow, i'm glad izturis is gone, but this is another example of ned not getting enough in trades.
We should have gotten more for izturis.
2006-07-31 13:16:58
236.   thinkblue0
226-

I honestly think just about everyone here vastly overrates Izturis' worth.

A guy with a good glove who can't hit is a utility player. I'm surprised we actually were able to get Maddux for him.

2006-07-31 13:17:46
237.   Daniel Zappala
232 The cash is going from the Cubs to the Dodgers.
2006-07-31 13:18:50
238.   King of the Hobos
The Cubs now have a middle infield of Izzy, Cedeno, and Neifi! And we thought Izzy/Cora was bad?
2006-07-31 13:18:58
239.   Sam DC
Nats chatters are wondering if Bowden screwed up the timezone.
2006-07-31 13:19:07
240.   blue22
237 - Even better then. I saw that blurb, and assumed it would cover Izzy's contract for next year.
2006-07-31 13:19:40
241.   underdog
I'll miss Izzy, but seemed to be on his way out for awhile and I guess we can look at this now as - room for the kids next year; Betemit is an upgrade over Izzy at 3rd; and Maddux is an upgrade over Hendrickson in the rotation (unless he's replacing Billingsley, which I hope isn't the case).

Mostly I'm happy with this, and also because: no prospect was given up! But I really like Izturis personally and he handled his position switches and the roller coaster this year with grace and diplomacy, and for that he has my respect. He's a good guy and has a superb glove. Never really very confident in his bat. But I wish him the best.

2006-07-31 13:19:40
242.   still bevens
So is Chad going to be sent down to work on his control? I suppose that could be a good thing.
2006-07-31 13:20:02
243.   trainwreck
I am looking on the bright side, we didn't trade any prospects.
2006-07-31 13:20:26
244.   JoeyP
This is Ned's best trade yet.
The key is moving Izzy's salary off the books for next year. Mission accomplished.

Who cares what we got?
The team is done for this year. Maddux wont make a difference.

However, moving Izzy's contract off the books for 2007 was needed.

If Ned just doesnt do anything else, then good job at the deadline.

2006-07-31 13:20:47
245.   capdodger
In other news, Mike Maddux is now DQed from the "Dodger Blues Wrong Brother" list.
2006-07-31 13:20:47
246.   thinkblue0
240-

Exactly.

We just upgraded over Hendrickson, and ditched the Human Out Machine in the process...and now have three more million to put towards Zito/Schmidt next year.

2006-07-31 13:20:48
247.   al bundy
The previous comment that trading Izzy is addition by subtraction is right on.
2006-07-31 13:21:13
248.   regfairfield
This trade was worth it just to clear Izzy's salary from 2007. I can't imagine he had that much trade value.
2006-07-31 13:21:49
249.   savetheblues
I'm not quite sure how maddux makes us any better. It's not that I'm not happy Izzy won't be hurting our lineup on an everyday basis, and I think just taking away the option for Grady to play him is a good thing. But Maddux is done, and I feel like enough teams overvalued izzy enough to get a bit more out of it. This trade probably hurts the cubs, who will see Izzy as their SS of the future, while not making us any better and getting rid of what could be a good utility guy.
2006-07-31 13:22:15
250.   Ben P
I am firmly in favor of this trade. I don't even want Izturis in the lineup, so why wouldn't I trade him for Maddux -- who has slumped but it not necessarily done yet.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-07-31 13:22:32
251.   underdog
228 Nate, I'd rather have Maddux than Todd Walker. He's really... "eh."

And we get cash, too!

Well, I don't personally get cash, which would make this deal even better! But you get my draft.

229 That is the question isn't it? Blake DeWitt? ;-) Maybe Betemit will play 2nd and 3rd - he's that good. (Heh.) No, I'm guessing it will be Ramon Martinez.

2006-07-31 13:22:36
252.   DodgerHobbit
229 Ramon Martinez, yes?

Pirate fans must be livid right now.

2006-07-31 13:23:10
253.   JoeyP
The Cubs now have a middle infield of Izzy, Cedeno, and Neifi!

Izzy is the heir apparent to Neifi.
I really like this trade. Izzy was horrible with the bat, and now its like one less problem for Grits to have to face.

Dumping Izzy is like dumping Dave Roberts two years. Addition by subtraction.

2006-07-31 13:23:20
254.   Rainman
236. Totally agree. The guy can't hit.

226. What would Izturis alone have gotten that'd have been worth more to us than Maddux? Would you have rather seen him packaged with some combo of Guzman/LaRoche/Billingsley/Kemp for someone, because you know that's all Ned heard?

2006-07-31 13:23:21
255.   Jon Weisman
Maddux should replace Sele in the rotation, not Chad.
2006-07-31 13:23:26
256.   natepurcell
huh!?!??! Lugo!?!?!?
2006-07-31 13:23:29
257.   Greg Brock
Dodgers got Lugo. Guzman and Pedroza

Dios Mio.

2006-07-31 13:23:33
258.   trainwreck
NOOOOO
Lugo for Guzman and Pedroza
2006-07-31 13:23:35
259.   King of the Hobos
The Dodgers acquired Lugo for Pedroza and Guzman. Why?
2006-07-31 13:23:45
260.   Eric L
Uh ok.. The Dodgers picked up Julio Lugo...
2006-07-31 13:23:52
261.   Inside Baseball
Julio Lugo for Joel guzman@!@!!???
2006-07-31 13:23:59
262.   imperabo
Why are some people so down on Maddux? Among qualified NL starters he's 17th of 46 in WHIP, 26th of 46 in ERA, 13th of 46 in ERC. How is that not a huge upgrade for any team's fifth starter?
2006-07-31 13:24:02
263.   thinkblue0
someone just told me we got Lugo!?!?!
2006-07-31 13:24:04
264.   Sam DC
Lugo?
2006-07-31 13:24:18
265.   bigcpa
According to CBS.SportsLine.com's Scott Miller, Alfonso Soriano won't be traded.
2006-07-31 13:24:18
266.   Steve
I have no idea what to think. I guess we save money.
2006-07-31 13:24:34
267.   thinkblue0
Lugo for Joel Guzman!
2006-07-31 13:24:50
268.   trainwreck
Someone ban talking to the Devil Rays. This is ridiculous!
2006-07-31 13:24:58
269.   bigcpa
263 Source?
2006-07-31 13:25:19
270.   natepurcell
At least we get two draft picks for Lugo at the end of the year.
2006-07-31 13:25:31
271.   Rainman
Lugo for Guzman??? I am without words.
2006-07-31 13:25:31
272.   D4P
"Getting Izturis out of the lineup" loses much of its lustre if "Getting Lucille II in the lineup" is a result.
2006-07-31 13:25:51
273.   thinkblue0
WOW......lugo makes NO sense
2006-07-31 13:25:59
274.   Bluebleeder87
Izzy to Cubs, my heart is hurt.
2006-07-31 13:26:02
275.   Sam DC
Wow - that's quite a Lugolanche.
2006-07-31 13:26:08
276.   the count
I like this deal. You can't expect much more return for a utility infielder making $3 Mil a season.
2006-07-31 13:26:34
277.   underdog
Thumbs up on Maddux deal.

Thumbs down on the Lugo one, if true, though I'll await the details and have to think about it a bit longer.

And, Jon, you're right, Maddux should replace Sele. (Or Hendrickson. But Hendrickson in the bullpen scares me more than hendrickson as a starter.)

2006-07-31 13:26:35
278.   King of the Hobos
So when Kent comes back, we have 5 infielders for 4 positions? Or are we going with a 2-5 configuration?
2006-07-31 13:27:22
279.   Rainman
How many shortstops does a team need, anyway?
2006-07-31 13:27:23
280.   JoeyP
STOP TRADING WITH THE DEVIL RAYS!

All the good of this Izzy for Maddux deal has been wiped away by this one!

WTF?

2006-07-31 13:27:46
281.   Steve
If this is true, Firing Ned Colletti would be too good for him.
2006-07-31 13:29:18
282.   the count
Lugo! A two month rental for Guzman and Pedroza!
2006-07-31 13:29:46
283.   JoeyP
STOP TRADING WITH THE DEVIL RAYS!

All the good of this Izzy for Maddux deal has been wiped away by this one!

When the D-Rays call, do not pick up!

2006-07-31 13:29:57
284.   Ben P
Where is Lugo playing? And why did we just get Betemit? The braintrust must really have soured on Guzman -- maybe because of "attitude" issues.
2006-07-31 13:30:13
285.   Bluebleeder87
*Dodgers got Lugo. Guzman and Pedroza

Dios Mio.*

I smell "super utility" player

2006-07-31 13:31:00
286.   Bluebleeder87
*Dodgers got Lugo. Guzman and Pedroza

Dios Mio.*

I smell "super utility" player

2006-07-31 13:31:18
287.   the OZ
Maddux isn't an impact acquisition, and the Dodgers didn't lose anything of value. If nothing else, it'll be fun to watch Maddux because of his name and his history, but the effectiveness isn't there anymore.

Greg's K rates have declined each of the last 3 seasons. HR rates plateau'd around 30 per season and BAA is up. BB rate has remained low. As a result, it's not surprising his ERA is up around 4.80, and I wouldn't expect much more than that going forward.

2006-07-31 13:32:00
288.   D4P
Rotoworld's take on the Lugo trade:

Now this one is a surprise. Lugo said he didn't want to be moved off shortstop, but that seems certain to happen in Los Angeles. He can play second in place of Jeff Kent for now and then maybe move to third base once Kent returns. Especially after already getting Wilson Betemit, this is a very heavy price for the Dodgers to pay. Guzman remains an excellent long-term prospect, and Pedroza has a chance to become a regular corner outfielder.

2006-07-31 13:32:14
289.   Greg Brock
Everybody calm down. Lugo is a very good hitter, will play second base (Kent is done this year, deal with it), We all know Guzman is vastly overrated, and Pedroza really didn't fit into the plan. If Lugo leaves, we get draft picks for him.

And cue the massive overraction to my statement.

2006-07-31 13:32:32
290.   Disabled List
Julio Lugo. Another Devil Ray in the middle of a career year. Buy high, sell low indeed.

We have now acquired one-fifth of the 2005 Devil Rays. Words fail me.

2006-07-31 13:32:37
291.   King of the Hobos
Do we realize Lugo now leads the team in homers? He's a nice player, and clearly Logan White was down on Guzman. I actually don't mind this deal, I just want to see how we configure the infield.
2006-07-31 13:32:38
292.   Blu2
232 After Nomar gets off the DL, he plays third, Bettemit to second, Loney to first base, Martinez to back up the infield. Until Kent gets back, of course. I have no pro or con feelings on this trade. Sure would have liked to see Cruz or Lofton going instead of Izzy. He would have made a good infield backup, although more expensive than Martinez.
2006-07-31 13:32:52
293.   bigcpa
6 years of Guzman for 57 games of Lugo. Lugo hit 6 HR in 616 ab's last year.
2006-07-31 13:33:09
294.   gibsonhobbs88
259-What source? To me now, they still have too many middle infielders on the 25 man roster. Is Lugo going to play second?

You think this would be part of a 3-way trade with Boston or Houston so we can get a SP! Otherwise Lugo doesn't make sense with Furcal already at SS.

2006-07-31 13:33:10
295.   Ben P
The possibly baseless speculation on ESPN is that either Kent or Nomar is more seriously hurt than we think and that's why they got Lugo.
2006-07-31 13:33:10
296.   Mark
Shortstops are the new black.
2006-07-31 13:33:13
297.   Rainman
The fact that in the past 9 months, we've sent prospects Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman, Chuck Tiffany, Jae Seo, and Dioner Navarro to Tampa, and have received nothing more for them than a few spare parts, is disheartening to me.

That being said, love the Maddux deal. Gave up no prospects, plus got money, and invoked the addition by subtraction principle with Izzy's offense, in return for an SP upgrade - that's what it's about.

2006-07-31 13:33:53
298.   al bundy
(moving to sarcastic mode to downplay how upset I am about trading Guzman for Lugo) Sure glad we got Lugo because it was so evident that SS was our weakest position. Thanks Ned.

I like Lugo - he's on my fantasy team - but WHY?

2006-07-31 13:34:11
299.   DodgerHobbit
I can only think the Dodgers got Lugo to try to flip Furby to the Orioles con muchos prospects for Miguel-dont-call-me-odalis-Tejada?

Either that or Neds D-Ray and middle infielder fetish has not yet been satisfied.

2006-07-31 13:34:25
300.   DodgerHobbit
I can only think the Dodgers got Lugo to try to flip Furby to the Orioles con muchos prospects for Miguel-dont-call-me-odalis-Tejada?

Either that or Neds D-Ray and middle infielder fetish has not yet been satisfied.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-07-31 13:34:40
301.   Vaudeville Villain
The Izturis trade is good.

God, I hope the Lugo trade is false. What the hell is the point of that move?

2006-07-31 13:34:45
302.   trainwreck
I guess Kent is not coming back.
2006-07-31 13:35:16
303.   thinkblue0
289-

If Kent is done this year, I just hope he retires.

2006-07-31 13:36:32
304.   bigcpa
This is a guy that slugged .396 in 2004. Not OBP- that is a slugging pct.
2006-07-31 13:37:10
305.   regfairfield
Isn't Kent supposed to be comind back in 2-3 weeks.
2006-07-31 13:37:22
306.   capdodger
285 That seems about right. The right half of the infield is on the DL. A little backup is nice, or something like that.
2006-07-31 13:38:43
307.   Marty
I am willing to send my prized Isturis bobble-head to Chicago for cash considerations.
2006-07-31 13:38:44
308.   Uncle Miltie
lol I go to take a shower and Ned continues dumping young players for rentals. At least we get 2 draft picks for Lugo. Lugo should be immediately flipped to another team for pitching.
2006-07-31 13:38:45
309.   DodgerHobbit
sorry for 300
2006-07-31 13:38:57
310.   natepurcell
Lugo isnt a bad deal.

Lugos in a contract year, so he will be definately playing hard. hes going to be the best FA on the market therefore offering arbritration isnt going to be a big risk.

guzman+ pedroza for Lugo, 2 draft picks and maybe a postseason appearance.

I honestly cant HATE this trade. I dont like it, but I can't hate it because we kept broxton, bills, kemp, martin, ethier, laroche, loney, elbert, and dewitt. Im really sad to see Guzman go, but out of all our top prospects, Guzman had the most flaws/warts on him. And who knows, with Logan White, 2 draft picks are basically two top prospects anyways.

2006-07-31 13:39:38
311.   FirstMohican
If the Lugo trade is true, it's clear Ned still recieves money from the Giants.
2006-07-31 13:39:52
312.   King of the Hobos
304 But he leads our team in homers right now, maybe that's why Flanders was so interested.

Colorado just dealt Shealy for Affeldt and Bautista, that should help them a little.

2006-07-31 13:40:03
313.   Greg Brock
310 Thank you
2006-07-31 13:40:24
314.   Steve
If we must have a bad team, we might as well accumulate the experts at it.
2006-07-31 13:40:35
315.   underdog
270 "At least we get two draft picks for Lugo at the end of the year."

Hm, I hadn't thought about that... is that true? Not bad. But I wonder about all this. Wow. My head hurts.

I like Maddux for Izzy though - at least we'll have a pitcher that won't make us cringe with anxiety every time he goes out there.

2006-07-31 13:40:50
316.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers bring in Lugo, the McCourts should just drop the "character" issues that surrounded dumping Milton Bradley.

Lugo is a wife beater.
Furcal is a drunk.

Anyone else want to defend these guys while kicking Bradley off the team?

Oh well.
I dislike Lugo for Guzman/Pedroza, more than liking Izzy for Maddux. Lugo isnt going to make a difference. How many banjo hitting SS does the team need? Lugo's been a banjo, up until this season. Seems like Ned buys everything at its highest value.

2006-07-31 13:40:50
317.   Terry A
Wow. Wowwie wow wow.

The Cubs get another light-hitting, good-fielding middle infielder.

The Devil Rays get another allegedly attitudinal-yet-promising prospect.

The Dodgers get a couple of expensive, aging free-agents-to-be.

On the surface, this is not good. Not good at all. We are mostly dead.

2006-07-31 13:41:00
318.   Linkmeister
I'll take Maddux for Izturis for (wait for it) "intangibles." I make Maddux a playing/pitching coach and fire Honeycutt. The latter hasn't even taught our pitchers how to use a tack or whatever it was to cut baseballs.
2006-07-31 13:41:01
319.   trainwreck
If I knew we were going to give him away, I wish we traded Guzman when he was very highly thought of.
2006-07-31 13:41:05
320.   natepurcell
310

best FA shortstop, excuse me!

2006-07-31 13:41:13
321.   dzzrtRatt
I just ran into Toby Hall and Mark Hendrickson at the bar where they drink with Colletti and Wade Boggs. It's one of those places where there's a giant aquarium behind the bar, and a mermaid swimming around with the fish.

Toby is furious! "That son of a bee Flanders was supposed to give them Martin for Lugo, not Guzman!"

Boggs was laughing. "Guess you just didn't put enough ecstasy in his Stinger!"

Hendrickson was face down, so he didn't say anything.

2006-07-31 13:41:34
322.   trainwreck
Guzman is still highly thought of, but not to the degree he was two years ago.
2006-07-31 13:41:52
323.   Blu2
Who was it that was going to start the blog killnedcolletti.com? I want to sign up.
2006-07-31 13:42:16
324.   rageon
I've been as down as Guzman as anyone over the last year or so, but I would have expected to get a LOT more for him than Lugo. If that deal is correct, it's a terrible deal for LA. It seems to me that Ned has came out on the short end of the stick in the majority of the deals he has made since taking over.
2006-07-31 13:42:21
325.   bigcpa
Lugo- career OPS .740, 2006 OPS .871
Hendrickson - career ERA 5.21, 2006 ERA 3.81

We've spent 6 months here debating whether Colletti and DePo are really that different. I would imagine this subject is now closed.

2006-07-31 13:43:08
326.   JoeyP
guzman+ pedroza for Lugo, 2 draft picks and maybe a postseason appearance

LOL...you think Lugo is the difference in making the playoffs and not making the playoffs?

2006-07-31 13:43:17
327.   caseybarker
Clearly, the Dodgers needed another middle infielder with a rap sheet.
2006-07-31 13:43:50
328.   underdog
289 (et al) I think you may be right. The more I think about it, the better this one sounds, too. My only caveat with Lugo is... wasn't he the one who had some, er, domestic trouble last year in Houston? Not sure he's a character improvement over, say, Izturis, but certainly a major bat upgrade.
2006-07-31 13:44:15
329.   the OZ
Why'd we have to send Pedroza AND Guzman in exchange for Lugo? It seems that one of them would be enough.

Ned's plan for this team becomes less clear to me with each move that he makes. He talked about being a 'buyer,' but it seems he's more of a 'renter."

2006-07-31 13:44:22
330.   Eric L
310 Nate, maybe you know.. which prospects have to be added to the 40-man roster after this season?

I'm not really having a huge problem with Ned getting rid of guys that don't have a future with the team. It seems that Guzman's status has been slipping in the eyes of the brain trust.

2006-07-31 13:44:29
331.   Uncle Miltie
So where does Kent play when he comes back? Is he coming back? Does this make Betemit a utility player? Lugo is clearly a downgrade from Betemit.
2006-07-31 13:44:49
332.   Disabled List
The Lugo trade makes no sense, even if Kent really is done for the year (which I doubt). That was the same logic behind picking up Baez (in case Gagne was hurt worse than people thought), and that move backfired on us.

I can only hope that Will Carroll's blurb about how well Logan White knows his prospects really is true. This is gonna be a painful deal for the Dodgers if Guzman starts playing the way we all think he's capable of.

2006-07-31 13:44:49
333.   Telemachos
Lugo is a pretty decent player -- I can only assume that the Dodgers are pretty worried about either Kent or Nomar (I'm guessing Kent). If you think of Lugo as replacing Izturis, that's a clear upgrade offensively.

As to Joel the D, I think it's clear the powers that be (including Logan White) have soured on him.

I'm happy about the Maddux trade; although I enjoyed Izturis a lot, one of my only concerns about getting Maddux was giving up young talent. Getting him (and cash) for Izturis is a solid deal, IMHO.

2006-07-31 13:44:53
334.   regfairfield
What I don't get his how this organization could have soured on Guzman so quickly.

This Spring, there was talk that Guzman would be the starting left fielder, and now we gave him away for two draft picks. What could he have done so badly in the last four months that he went from untouchable to worthless.

How many wins can Lugo contribute over Ramon Martinez? If we assume Martinez is replacement level, at Lugo's current production level, it's 2.4. When the Dodgers have to play about .620 ball win 85 games, 2.4 wins isn't going to cut it.

The way that Guzman can go from Godlike to worthless in four months is why I have a hard time trusting scouts.

2006-07-31 13:45:00
335.   Bluebleeder87
That being said, love the Maddux deal. Gave up no prospects, plus got money, and invoked the addition by subtraction principle with Izzy's offense, in return for an SP upgrade - that's what it's about.

I like that one as well (atleast I'll get to watchi Izzy on the tube. the Lugo trade is very weird. (third team involved?)

2006-07-31 13:45:30
336.   StolenMonkey86
Izzy for Maddux, I kinda saw, but I think it will work for the club's plans. Maddux will get an extra year next year, unless he gives up like 40 homers in the next two months. Funny though, that they have to make sure you get a gold glover in return for another gold glover.

Lugo may pontentially be another Tampa Bay malcontent on the team. But we just might get a draft pick for him next year, given his performance this year (.308/.373/.498, 12 HR 18-4 SB-CS), he'll be an improvement. That he's got speed too allows Grady to say he's a number two hitter and drop Lofton to the bench.

I'm still waiting for the DFA of Jose Cruz Jr.

2006-07-31 13:46:09
337.   Greg Brock
"Kill Ned!" "Fire Ned!" "Ned is a Giant!"

Good Lord, people. Try to dial it down a notch.

2006-07-31 13:47:09
338.   natepurcell
LOL...you think Lugo is the difference in making the playoffs and not making the playoffs?

No, but he replaces Izzy's bat and thats a big upgrade and the defense is almost the same.

Lugo is a good player have a very good year. We still have a postseason chance, although its slim and the odds are against us. But If we were willing to trade guzman for two draft picks of soriano, we are still trading guzman for two draft picks.

2006-07-31 13:47:31
339.   Uncle Miltie
Can McCourt trade Ned to the D-rays for their GM?
2006-07-31 13:47:52
340.   confucius
The Izturis trade is what suprises me.

I thought Ned was trying to put a short stop at every position, similar to Depo's plan of putting a Ja(y)son at every postion.

2006-07-31 13:48:16
341.   Rainman
314. Classic quote. Nominate for 'Best of'.
2006-07-31 13:48:37
342.   StolenMonkey86
I am also going to say this is good news for Delwyn Young. He's got a better shot at making the Dodgers at second base if Kent goes down.
2006-07-31 13:49:07
343.   bigcpa
Can anyone believe we had sweeten the deal? Guzman just wasn't enough to get it done. "Come on- you want my 12 HR guy and you're only giving me back an 11 HR guy?"
2006-07-31 13:49:16
344.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers give Maddux a year next year, I'll puke. The team isnt going to improve its pitching by signing #5 level starters.
2006-07-31 13:49:18
345.   Telemachos
People are over-reacting (as usual). There aren't any major superstars to be got without giving up the house -- and of course Jon and others have pointed out that even a major star won't necessarily add a ton of wins to a playoff run. There's simply not that many games left.

I didn't know that Lugo was a FA -- so we'll get draft picks for him, even better.

2006-07-31 13:49:28
346.   regfairfield
338 For clarification, I would be about as upset if we traded Guzman for Soriano.
2006-07-31 13:49:47
347.   Uncle Miltie
Going back to what Joey said, I don't get this character thing. McCourt orders that Bradley is dumped yet he allows Ned to bring in a wife beater and a drunk...
2006-07-31 13:50:47
348.   Jacob L
316At least with Maddux, apparently Ned has learned how to buy low.

Even if Kent is done for the year, as some have conjenctured, this is still the wrong deal - a clear and obvious choice of exchanging the future for a tenuous present.

Somebody tell Ned that we're still 5 games back with 4 teams ahead of us. I wish Washigton had swept us.

2006-07-31 13:51:05
349.   King of the Hobos
Lugo is batting .308/.373/.498. Drew is batting .276/.373/.457. Clearly Lugo is playing well above his usual standard and will come down to earth, but we don't really know what's going on. His career .751 OPS is better than what Lucille II will do, and for all we know he could take over for Lofton, where he's a big upgrade. I really think we need to wait until all the details emerge before we cry over this too much.
2006-07-31 13:51:49
350.   FirstMohican
Assuming it's true... if the Dodgers aquired Lugo to flip him elsewhere, wouldn't we have heard that by now, as it's now an hour past the deadline?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-07-31 13:51:51
351.   underdog
I do think it's a bit funny how we (myself included) all analyze these trades as they're made (or even as they're rumoured), rather than in a year, or several years down the road when they are more accurately evaluated. It's sort of like how sportswriters give NFL teams grades on their drafts the day after. I'm just sayin'...
2006-07-31 13:52:21
352.   confucius
331 Why is Lugo a downgrade from Betemit?

I'm curious, I really don't know.

2006-07-31 13:53:29
353.   capdodger
332 The problem with the Baez trade wasn't the logic of picking him up to back up Gange, it was the premise that Baez was any good in the first place.

Aside: Props to Ken! Trade deadline comes and goes with only a minor slowdown!

2006-07-31 13:55:20
354.   JoeyP
nd of course Jon and others have pointed out that even a major star won't necessarily add a ton of wins to a playoff run. There's simply not that many games left.

So why trade anyone for a non-difference making rental?

Izzy for Maddux makes sense for 2007.
Guzman/Pedroza for Lugo doesnt make sense for 2007-2010.

I'm happy for Pedroza. He gets a fresh start in an organization that is more than willing to put rate production over tools. Its strange my favorite prospects (Guzman at SS, Pedroza/Ruggiano in the OF) are all now D-Rays.

2006-07-31 13:55:30
355.   natepurcell
Im suprised Lofton, Ledee and or Cruz are still on the roster.

I am actually not as mad as I thought I would be when I woke up today.

2006-07-31 13:56:37
356.   MartinBillingsley31
The key to these trades is that we are out of it this season.
hello, we are not going to win the world series
So why give up any prospects for a rental.
And the only thing i like about the izturis for maddux deal is if we are dumping all of izturis's salary for some free agent pitching, plus addition by subtraction.
2006-07-31 13:57:04
357.   natepurcell
I'm happy for Pedroza. He gets a fresh start in an organization that is more than willing to put rate production over tools.

why do you say that?

2006-07-31 13:57:08
358.   StolenMonkey86
Just a thought, for all the allegations of McCourt's cheapness, would putting names on the back of the uniforms cause Ned to slow down on the trade market?
2006-07-31 13:57:25
359.   Vaudeville Villain
This is an awful trade.

Lugo is a career .750 OPS hitter, which is only slightly better than Furcal's numbers this year.

Coletti has been accruing a lot of bad will on my part.

1) He does not look at peripherals.

2) He buys high, in other words, he brings in players who are in the midst, or are coming off career years. (Lugo, Hendrickson, Baez.)

3) He is getting owned by the Devil Rays. THE DEVIL RAYS.

2006-07-31 13:57:49
360.   JoeyP
His career .751 OPS is better than what Lucille II will do, and for all we know he could take over for Lofton,

Interesting.
Has Lugo ever played CF?
That would be enticing.

2006-07-31 13:59:15
361.   Fallout
I'm disappointed that Izturis was traded for Maddux. In the long run I was hoping he would play SS for the Dodgers. I have little use for Furcal because of all his errors. It's hard to win when you're giving the other team 4 outs.
2006-07-31 13:59:53
362.   underdog
342 I was wondering about that, too. Is Young a better bet at 2nd than in the OF? (I'm sincerely asking.) Weren't there concerns about his defense in the infield and that's why he was moved out? Maybe this will give him a better chance to make the team as a good utility player, either way, though.
2006-07-31 13:59:54
363.   confucius
355 Lofton seems like he would be easy to unload. I wonder why this hasn't happened.

I'd rather see Repko start every day over Lofton.

2006-07-31 14:00:47
364.   trainwreck
We should have asked for Upton or Delmon Young since the D Rays are so mad with them.
2006-07-31 14:00:53
365.   King of the Hobos
354 The Rays won't be playing Guzman at SS. That duty falls to either Upton or Zobrist.
2006-07-31 14:01:28
366.   D4P
Going back to what Joey said, I don't get this character thing. McCourt orders that Bradley is dumped yet he allows Ned to bring in a wife beater and a drunk...

Not to mentioned that he gave The Jerk an extension and hasn't dumped The Adulterer...

2006-07-31 14:02:25
367.   Dark Horse
359-Until the Devil Rays actually achieve something with one of these prospects (dubious,) it's going a bit far to say we're "getting owned" by them. I don't love the return--nor giving up Guzman--but this is hysteria.
2006-07-31 14:02:27
368.   Telemachos
Guzman/Pedroza for Lugo doesnt make sense for 2007-2010.

How do you know? Guzman/Pedroza could turn out awesome, yes -- and then it'd be a poor trade. Or they could be busts and Logan White could spin the picks we get for Lugo into new hot prospects.

We simply don't know at this point. I wouldn't even say the odds are one way or the other.

2006-07-31 14:03:02
369.   Greg S
Okay, trying to understand this as we all are. I totally get the Maddux trade, like it or not it's clear as a bell. But we traded an excess shortstop and then traded to aquire another one. Whaterve some would like to believe, Ned is not stupid or crazy. All I can guess is that Kent's injury is not getting better and that he's out for the foreseeable future. Are there any other ideas on why we traded for Lugo? I don't belive for a second that it's to replace Betemit.
2006-07-31 14:04:05
370.   King of the Hobos
360 He played some OF with Houston, and said he'd be willing to play a different position with a contender. He's athletic enough to play CF.
2006-07-31 14:04:30
371.   regfairfield
368 Considering how long we have Lugo, we have to be 100% sure Guzman and Pedroza are busts for it to be a good trade.
2006-07-31 14:04:51
372.   Uncle Miltie
352- do you really expect Lugo to continue to slug .500?

Ned once again buys high (maybe he was on grass too). I'm more against the Maddux deal. Lugo is a good player who should net us a few draft picks. Acquiring Maddux is a lateral move and Ned undersold Izzy.

2006-07-31 14:05:22
373.   underdog
354 "Its strange my favorite prospects (Guzman at SS, Pedroza/Ruggiano in the OF) are all now D-Rays."
My favorite prospects are different than your favorites, I suppose, and mine are still with the organization - as I breathe a big sigh of relief - but I do wish all those guys the best. I hope Guzman does well - but not too well. ;-)

I'm also looking at all the trades the Dodgers have made over the past week as not just who we added, but who we subtracted, and for the most part, I'm good with it.

2006-07-31 14:05:58
374.   natepurcell
Why is Lofton still on the team?
2006-07-31 14:06:43
375.   regfairfield
Ramon Martinez and Julio Lugo have almost the same WARP rate this year. I'm definately not saying Martinez=Lugo (Martinez is almost certainly a fluke), but it is something to think about.
2006-07-31 14:06:51
376.   PadreJeremy
Might as well trade Guzman before he turns into Franklin Gutierrez. Atleast you can still get Julio Lugo for him.

The Dodgers are making some good moves today. Give them credit while my Padres are trading for crap.

2006-07-31 14:07:03
377.   thinkblue0
I have little use for Furcal because of all his errors. It's hard to win when you're giving the other team 4 outs.

Interesting. Try looking at the defensive numbers. They are actually very similar.

And most of us have little use for a utility infielder who can't hitter water if he jumped out of a boat.

Maddux for Izzy = Ned's best deal.

2006-07-31 14:07:08
378.   Daniel B
360
Lugo has played 1 game and had 1 at bat as a centerfielder.

He struck out.

He's also appeared, albeit very briefly, in LF and RF

2006-07-31 14:07:29
379.   towerofpower
Useless trade. Betemit can play 2nd. Laroche can play 3rd. Why go out of house?
2006-07-31 14:07:44
380.   Vaudeville Villain
367-

The Devil Rays have already won. Navarro is right now, a better player than Mark Hendrickson. So, there's that. Baez and Carter probably were negatives for this team, and have no chance of improving. Tiffany and Jackson have a chance to improve.

Lugo is a slightly better hitter than Furcal. Guzman was a top twenty prospect only last year.

It's hardly hysterics. It's my honest analysis of the trades Coletti has made.

2006-07-31 14:07:48
381.   Suffering Bruin
If you look at Betemit's and Lugo's numbers this year, I think you'll see why Ned likes them so much.
2006-07-31 14:08:29
382.   PadreJeremy
Might as well trade Guzman before he turns into Franklin Gutierrez. Atleast you can still get Julio Lugo for him.

The Dodgers are making some good moves today. Give them credit while my Padres are trading for crap.

2006-07-31 14:08:34
383.   Telemachos
371 Why? Again, we get draft picks for him when he hits free agency. What if those picks turn out just as well as the two we traded?

Baseball is filled with hot prospects who didn't turn out. It's a fallacy to assume that every single hot prospect we have will be a guaranteed success.

Watch Grady pencil Lugo into the #2 slot and let's see what happens.

2006-07-31 14:08:49
384.   thinkblue0
Why is Lofton still on the team?

that's what I've been asking since April.

I just hope Repko gets some starts.

2006-07-31 14:09:13
385.   natepurcell
lol, is Lugo leading the Dodgers in homeruns now?
2006-07-31 14:10:21
386.   JoeyP
The most interesting thing about Lugo, is that he's having such a career season (way way above his norm), that its almost inevitable that he'll regress.

So, what is a slumping Lugo is worth? I guess to Colletti it was Guzman/Pedroza.

Its just strange how someone can look at a player having a career year, and instead of thinking (we'll this is out of the norm for him), instead they think "aw well he's on such a role he's likely to maintain it".

Its like Colletti's is GM'ing with his heart, instead of his head. He'd go broke working on Wall Street.

2006-07-31 14:10:35
387.   Marty
Well, so far there is only one missing name from Jon's lineup up top. And it was the one everyone wanted gone.
2006-07-31 14:10:47
388.   regfairfield
383 True, the draft picks are a factor, but I like Guzman's chances more than I like a random pick.

If Lugo hits second, where will Lofton go?

2006-07-31 14:10:59
389.   Steve
You think you put in all the variables as to something as straightforward as trading Izturis, and then you realize you forgot to put in the likelihood of your moronic GM doing something spectacularly doltish.
2006-07-31 14:11:09
390.   Eric L
372 How do you know that Ned undersold Izzy?

I think to echo what was said earlier, we have no idea what people were offering for Izzy. I can't say that he could have done worse but I also can't say that he could have done better.

No matter what, Izzy is a no-hit, all-field shortstop. Perhaps the market for this type of player was garbage.

2006-07-31 14:11:40
391.   underdog
366 "Not to mentioned that he gave The Jerk an extension and hasn't dumped The Adulterer..." I loved that movie! "For one dollar I'll guess your weight, your height, or your sex."

Er, you weren't talking about Steve Martin's Navin Johnson?

2006-07-31 14:12:06
392.   Steve
You think you put in all the variables as to something as straightforward as trading Izturis, and then you realize you forgot to put in the likelihood of your moronic GM doing something spectacularly doltish.
2006-07-31 14:12:10
393.   caseybarker
Is this Lugo trade for real, though? I've only seen it reported on ESPN.
2006-07-31 14:13:03
394.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I like, really like, Maddux for Izturis. It was obvious Cesar didn't have a place in the current infield, once he proved his bat isn't 3B-quality, as expected. But, he was being paid too much to use as a reserve. Maddux, who knows how much there's left in the tank? Who does he replace in the rotation? I hope Maddux's locker is next to Billz's, and Chad better be taking notes.
Lugo for the prospects? Hmmm. I'm torn, but not with any real passion. Just yesterday, I expressed why I'm not too high on Guzman. Pedroza, IIRC, was blocked. But where does Lugo play? The infield is getting mighty crowded.
2006-07-31 14:13:03
395.   FirstMohican
371 - Even if they are busts, it can be considered a bad trade relative to what some think should've been had for Guzman.

If Kent's and/or Nomar's injuries are worse than previously thought and Lugo's to fill in for one of them, that's a downgrade still. Why would you drop a top prospect for a guy to fill in for a team that's just short of floundering.

If it's debatable whether or not to drop prospects for so-called "difference makers", then sholdn't it be certain that you shouldn't drop prospects on players that MAY help the team merely maintain its current poor pace?

2006-07-31 14:13:25
396.   jujibee
So, with Laroche locking down 3rd for years to come, Furcal at SS, Betemit at 2nd/utility, Dewitt up and coming, Loney at 1st, Ethier in Left, Kemp in CF and Drew in right, where would you put Guzman. He reminds me a little of the right handed Hee Seop Choi with a lot less walks, albeit a few years younger. I agree with the trade if it nets us 2 picks in this years draft. We could nab a couple of pitchers, something it looks like we're more in need of. Not to mention the fact that Logan White is in the front office and certainly has a track record for knowing what he's doing.
2006-07-31 14:13:25
397.   natepurcell
Lugo is 30 yrs old and in his prime, in 2004 and 2005 he hit 41 and 36 doubles. Its not unusual for those doubles to turn into homeruns now.

But whatever, any move Colletti makes there is going to be mass hysteria on DT just because this is such an opinionated community.

2006-07-31 14:14:27
398.   Eric L
372 How do you know that Ned undersold Izzy?

I think to echo what was said earlier, we have no idea what people were offering for Izzy. I can't say that he could have done worse but I also can't say that he could have done better.

No matter what, Izzy is a no-hit, all-field shortstop. Perhaps the market for this type of player was garbage.

2006-07-31 14:14:40
399.   Rainman
377. Agree 100%.
2006-07-31 14:15:22
400.   bigcpa
Well at least now the man behind the curtain of the Liriano/Nathan trade has been revealed.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-07-31 14:15:39
401.   Uncle Miltie
390-
Greg Maddux, 40 years old, 2 mo left on his contract, Dodgers will not collect draft picks in the offseason

ERA
May 5.94
June 6.25
July 5.21

After the all star break 5.54

On the positive side, Maddux has 3:19 B:K ratio and has only allowed 1 home run in 26 innings since the break.

2006-07-31 14:15:40
402.   tjshere
Aren't we going to need to dump a pitcher to create roster space for Lugo before all is said and done?
2006-07-31 14:15:42
403.   bhsportsguy
In balance, I think these moves demonstrate what Jon said a couple of days ago, its hard to quantify them as being in the "buyer's" or "seller's" category.

Those of us who follow the prospects get a little annoyed when one or two are dealt but I am still waiting for any of them that have been dealt since 2000 that have amounted to anything. Which is probably more of an indictment of the system than the players but you get my drift.

2006-07-31 14:15:47
404.   capdodger
390 - No matter what, Izzy is a no-hit, all-field shortstop. Perhaps the market for this type of player was garbage.

Yeah, didn't the Cubs have a pair of those already?

2006-07-31 14:16:44
405.   trainwreck
I remember people said they didn't want Myers because of his spousal abuse problems, well Lugo has that or at least had that problem too.
2006-07-31 14:17:00
406.   FirstMohican
400 - That's not a good thought right now.
2006-07-31 14:17:05
407.   Nagman
Apparently Fred Claire wouldn't have made the Maddux trade. He is on MLB Radio right now stating Izzy is the best fielding SS in the "history of the LA Dodgers" and the Cubs made a great deal.
2006-07-31 14:17:09
408.   Telemachos
If Lugo hits second, where will Lofton go?

When Lugo hits second, Lofton's on the bench. If Lofton plays, Lugo slides down to the 6 or 7 slot.

I think what Colletti's doing is covering his bases. We know he was trying to move Lofton -- reports were that the Dodgers weren't all that excited about his defense. Lugo's also insurance for Kent's injury problems and Betemit slumping. Even if he's over-estimating Lugo and he's simply having a career year (not unlikely at all), we ditch him after the season and get those 2 all-important picks. If he hits a bad slump again, I doubt he'd be as weak a bat as Izturis was, and we have Martinez to cover for that possibility as well.

Will the D-Rays put JtD back at SS, I wonder? Or is that experiment over forever?

2006-07-31 14:17:57
409.   Rainman
403. Good point. We were all furious about losing Franklin Gutierrez, Guillermo Mota, etc. as well, and what have they done?
2006-07-31 14:18:09
410.   natepurcell
Well at least now the man behind the curtain of the Liriano/Nathan trade has been revealed.

who was behind the Jason Schmidt trade?

Not to be a stickler, but this deal isn't really the end of the world here.

2006-07-31 14:18:35
411.   Steve
400 -- Press Release Ned wins by TKO. Baseball Ned is on life-support and just about brain dead.
2006-07-31 14:18:38
412.   ToyCannon
Ned must love his shortstops. If Betemit hits during the Lugo reign at 2nd base we could see Lugo in CF when Kent returns as someone suggested. If this wasn't a two month rental I'd love this trade but if he's only here for two months we have to win the division to even come close to making it palpable. His OPS trends are moving up 734/765/860. Have no idea what his defensive metrics or reputation is but as a roto player he has been a kick butt SS with his combo of power and speed.
2006-07-31 14:18:59
413.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Brass tacks: What's the contract status for the gentlemen acquired? Lugo is FA-eligible, from the talk of draft picks (assuming he won't be re-signed).
2006-07-31 14:18:59
414.   Bob Timmermann
397

Nate,
The proper term is "caterwauling".

2006-07-31 14:19:24
415.   Rainman
404. Sure do. This deal sure doesn't make much sense from a Cubs' standpoint. If you were in their shape, wouldn't you at least wanted a prospect to make it worthwhile?
2006-07-31 14:20:17
416.   underdog
382 Thank you - and it took a Padre fan coming in here to bring some logic and rationality to the conversation here. ;-)

390 Yeah, I have to say, the idea that the Dodgers got so much less than they could have for Izturis seems a little farfetched to me, given the realities of the marketplace and the fact that bats always take precedence over gloves when it comes to trading value. I seriously doubt we could have gotten much more for Izzy, unless we were willing to take a chance on some low A prospects or something, which is not necessarily something we need. Just my two cents.

2006-07-31 14:20:18
417.   regfairfield
408 That last part was firmly tounge in cheek.

397 My disliking of this trade has nothing to do with Colletti.

2006-07-31 14:20:33
418.   Daniel Zappala
I agree with 396 -- everyone here had Guzman on the bench, even in their fantasy all-prospect lineups for next year. Given that even those weren't going to happen, where was Guzman going to play? Sure, Lugo isn't a lot for what was once a very promising prospect (now only somewhat promising), but he is an upgrade at second and will lead to more draft picks. Essentially, this recycles a prospect who was going to get squeezed off the roster eventually for some younger prospects.
2006-07-31 14:20:35
419.   bigcpa
397 Nate you sound like you've been deprogrammed or something. If Guzman hits the top 20% of his PECOTA and becomes a $350,000 Pat Burrell clone, will you like this deal?
2006-07-31 14:21:15
420.   Fallout
377 thinkblue0
Interesting. Try looking at the defensive numbers. They are actually very similar.

Only if you cherry pick Furcal's 2005 season. Otherwise there is no comparison.

2006-07-31 14:21:22
421.   coachjpark
386 It's All About Heart...
2006-07-31 14:21:54
422.   towerofpower
Isnt next years draft supposed to be strong? If that is the case, perhaps the Lugo deal isnt quite as lopsided. Nonetheless, the deal ... doesnt make much sense
2006-07-31 14:22:28
423.   Vaudeville Villain
If you honestly believe that Julio Lugo will be the piece that puts us over the hump, well, I wish I had your optimism.

I think it's perfectly fair to analyze the thought process behind such a move, and debate it on those merits. What could Coletti be thinking here?

1) Jeff Kent is out for the year.

1A) If this is true, then the season is over, because Lugo is not a good enough player to make this team a contender. The team needs Kent to be competitive, plain and simple. So just stand pat and let the season play out.

2) Julio Lugo will continue OPSing over .800.

2A) I have some chocolate covered cotton I'd like to sell you. It tastes good!

3) The draft picks we get for Lugo are more valuable than Guzman.

3A) What are the chances either of those two picks achieve a top twenty minor player designation, that Guzman achieved? Remote, I'd say. You can't say, "minor league players flame out all the time!" and then argue that this is a good trade because we get draft picks.

4) Ned Coletti and the Devil Rays GM are really good friends.

4A) Perfectly reasonable.

2006-07-31 14:23:43
424.   Steve
5) mmmm...pudding

5A) Tapioca! Yum!

2006-07-31 14:25:03
425.   s choir
If all of Colletti's midseason trades were combined into one blockbuster deal, this is what it would look like:

Aybar
Baez
Izturis
Guzman
Pedroza
Perez
Navarro
Seo

for

Maddux
Lugo
Betemit
Dessens
Hendrickson
Hall

Am I missing anyone?

2006-07-31 14:25:45
426.   natepurcell
Nate you sound like you've been deprogrammed or something. If Guzman hits the top 20% of his PECOTA and becomes a $350,000 Pat Burrell clone, will you like this deal?

Is Guzman going to walk as much as Burrell? I dont know if he ever will. I haven't really been deprogrammed. Like I said before, Its not like I like the trade with two thumbs up, its just not a terrible deal. I can see why the Dodgers did it and if they have that much faith in Logan White to continually replace the Guzman's of our system with the same quality prospects, then I can see the "upside" of the deal.

2006-07-31 14:27:20
427.   Goozmani
i can deal with the maddux deal. glad to see izturis outta l.a.

the lugo deal-ugh. initially, i thought, lugo would be flipped somewhere else. but hes over 30 years, having a career year and had to give up guzman.

ill leave it at this.... ?

2006-07-31 14:27:36
428.   Steve
I can see why Tampa Bay did it and if they have that much faith in Logan White to continually replace the Guzman's of their system with the same quality prospects, then I can see the "upside" of the deal.
2006-07-31 14:29:18
429.   Greg S
Getting past the value for value of the Guzman trade, again, why did we want Lugo? To me this is the elephant in the living room that we're not discussing.
2006-07-31 14:29:50
430.   natepurcell
Okay I'm going to leave now. Its obvious DT is entering into "after trade massacre" and I don't want to be here to recieve the brute of the onslaught. Golf sounds good right now.
2006-07-31 14:30:02
431.   fanerman
What is the point of getting Lugo? To play 2nd base? If Kent is out for the season, I guess there's that. But if Kent comes back, we have a logjam in the infield.

So... what is going on with Jeff Kent?

2006-07-31 14:30:29
432.   Ladderkite
Lugo better hit. Maddux should help. I hope to heck that Maddux has an influence on the rest of the staff. Specifically Bills.
2006-07-31 14:31:21
433.   Greg S
430. I think you're right. Golf sounds GREAT right now. But then again, it always does.
2006-07-31 14:31:47
434.   Bluebleeder87
Will the D-Rays put JtD back at SS, I wonder? Or is that experiment over forever?

He'll be the Hendrickson of SStops no?

2006-07-31 14:31:53
435.   Vaudeville Villain
I keep hearing people say this isn't a bad trade.

Someone please explain to me how it is a good trade, because I'm not getting it.

2006-07-31 14:33:01
436.   Ladderkite
I might be reading too far down the line, but I see a Kent or Furcal trade on the horizon somewhere in the future. I also forsee us eating a lot of that money when it happens.

Lugo better hit. Did I mention that already?

2006-07-31 14:33:09
437.   Steve
why did we want Lugo

Plaschke wanted him because it's spelled like it sounds.

2006-07-31 14:33:57
438.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.
2006-07-31 14:34:03
439.   ToyCannon
Or the optimistic scenario is:
1. We have a rotation of Penny/Lowe/Hendrickson/Billingsly/Maddox
2. Billingsly / Broxton / Elbert / Orenduff/ Kuo/ Miller are still with us. I really expected to lose either or both Kuo and Miller
3. LaRoche / Kemp/ Ethier / Martin / Dewitt / Loney and especially Carlos Santan:) are still with us
4. Lugo has been better then Kent this year and if Kent is out for the year Lugo should more then hold his own so I don't think we need to give up the season cause Kent is gone.

I am thrilled to death JtD went to the DevilRays. I'm his sponser on the Baseball Cube and now he's on my 2nd favorite team. He should fit in very well with Young/ Upton/ Dukes as players with incredible talent but may never reach their potential cause of "makeup" issues. I hope they all end up having near HOF careers and tear the heart out of the Yankees for a few years before the Yankee's buy them.

2006-07-31 14:34:17
440.   sanchez101
I cannot believe that anybody is unhappy about Izturis being traded, since when is trading a multi-million dollar utility infielder a bad thing? The only thing more amazing was that you could think that Izturis has more significant trade value than back-end starter.

I am much happier with the Lugo deal. He is not a flimsy slap-hitter. He's posting a 870 OPS right now, and last year had .287 EQA. He's clearly a plus-hitter for either middle-infield position. Considering his age, I'd rather have him than Kent, even if Kent did have some timetable for a return. Ned must be unsure of Kent's eventual return, but even if we let Lugo go, we get 2 top draft picks next year, both of whom should be better than Pedroza. Is it worth Pedroza AND Guzman? Im not sure, but I am sure that Guzman really didnt have a future on the Dodgers, he isn't moving LaRoche, Ethier, Kemp or Drew anywhere, and Loney is more viable candidate to replace Nomar, if things come to that. Ned may have undersold Guzman, but not by much, and its probably more likely that we are over-estimating Guzman's value.

2006-07-31 14:34:30
441.   bigcpa
430 Nate if you're still here I wasn't getting personal- I'm just surprised how quickly JtD's value sank all the way to draft pick bait. And if 29 teams see it that way isn't that the sign to sit on the guy? Same argument with Navarro IMO.
2006-07-31 14:34:54
442.   regfairfield
Best case scenario: Lugo adds three wins.

The Dodgers need to go 35-22 from this point on to make the playoffs, so with Lugo, they need to go 32-22.

Is betting the Dodgers can play .592 ball the rest of the way worth Guzman and Pedroza?

2006-07-31 14:36:33
443.   King of the Hobos
435 "Isn't bad" doesn't necessarily mean "good." Guzman is hardly a sure thing, as several players that matched his profile have been terrible. It's clearly a win-now deal, even though our odds are horrible. Lugo fits Ned's speedy and athletic profile, plus he has some doubles power.
2006-07-31 14:41:04
444.   Vaudeville Villain
Julio Lugo, season numbers, OPS.

2000- .777
2001- .698
2002- .710
2003- .630 (Hou).760 (TB)
2004- .734
2005- .765
2006- .871

But hey, players magically get better at the age of 30 all the time! This isn't a fluke! Julio Lugo really is almost as good as Miguel Tejada! (.900 OPS)

California dreamin...

2006-07-31 14:42:12
445.   JoeyP
Lugo makes little sense in a "win-now" deal, bc his presence alone wont make the Dodgers "win-now".

The rotation is still junk.
The only place where Lugo could improve the lineup (if everyone is healthy), is in CF.

If Lugo was brought in to play 3b, why on earth do you trade Aybar for Betemit?

My gosh...Just two years ago the Dodgers sent 3 b prospects for Steve Finley! Now the team sends one of their top ones for Julio Lugo???

Stop the Insanity.

2006-07-31 14:47:34
446.   Andrew Shimmin
Is it more boring when X people are hysterical or when X² people complain about it?
2006-07-31 14:49:50
447.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
FWIW, here's TB's corresponding move (from the AP): The Devil Rays will also call up infielder B.J. Upton, the team's top draft pick in 2002, from Triple-A Durham.
2006-07-31 14:56:41
448.   Fallout
445 JoeyP
Stop the Insanity

So, are you're really Susan Powter?

2006-07-31 15:00:15
449.   Fallout
446 Andrew Shimmin

What is more interesting is how you get your keyboard to make the little "2". As in X². (copy, paste)

2006-07-31 15:05:07
450.   Andrew Shimmin
449- I copy and pasted it, too. Google, "squared." One of the top ten results has it in the title.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-07-31 15:14:33
451.   Fallout
450 Andrew Shimmin

:)

2006-07-31 15:44:28
452.   Blu2
consolidating the whole mess:
We got: Betemit, Maddux, Lugo (2 draft picks), $ from Chicago

Our cost:Baez (2 draft picks),Aybar, Izturis, Guzmzn, Pedrosa, $ to Atlanta

If the money cancels out, basically we traded Izturis(none of us wanted to keep him), Aybar(management didn't want him), and Baez(Nobody wanted to keep him), Guzman, and Pedroza for Betemitt, Maddux, and Lugo.

2006-07-31 15:50:05
453.   Andrew Shimmin
Every time I refresh the top thread, I'm fifty comments behind. I'm getting pretty sick of how every time we send a couple of prospects to Tampa Bay, there's a new round of A) well, those two prospects weren't REALLY good, B) why don't you talk about the fifty (er, forty-eight, er, forty-six. . .) prospects that Flanders DIDN'T trade to Tampa Bay?

New, if baffling, argument that has great potential: JtD was so blocked by LaRoche, Ethier, et al., that he had to be traded for another shortstop.

2006-07-31 15:56:34
454.   Gen3Blue
Well, I guess I should be happy management has no more time to screw around with trades and we only lost Guz and Izturis. But I don't think we got anything in the long run(except maybe the draft picks--are they 1st and 2nd round.)I got a feeling there will be LOL in the future but it may be gallows humour. Whats a Lugo anyway, and what postition did we fill?

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