Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Final Swing
2006-10-07 22:00
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

After James Loney singled and as Ramon Martinez worked Mets closer Billy Wagner in a tenacious at-bat, I couldn't keep myself from believing that a slow miracle might be brewing. Maybe it was that score, 9-5, that was so magical so recently, that was hypnotizing me.

When Martinez lifted the 10th pitch he saw from Wagner and the fly ball found Shawn Green's glove near the seats in foul territory, I was reassured that I was not alone. The crowd seemed stunned. A contingent of fans had headed for home or the farthest bar when the Mets went up by four in the eighth inning, but most people had stayed, and what was shocking was that in that moment, no one around me bolted for the exits. Some, no doubt, were deflated, or interested in seeing a series-clinching celebration, but I have to think many just couldn't believe that the season was over - which is saying something. It took a few seconds for it to sink in.

It was a great Dodger Stadium crowd tonight, one of the best I've ever been a part of. They cheered from the pregame introductions on, supporting the team universally, pushing aside the opportunity to boo easy targets like Brad Penny or Julio Lugo, realizing that there would be plenty of time for recriminations in the offseason. The Dodgers got down early and still the crowd didn't boo, unlike regular-season games when it seemed Dodger fans had the same tolerance for things not going their way as a 4-year-old.

And almost every inning - not every batter, but every inning - the crowd would get lively, get on its feet, not because the stadium scoreboard told them to, but just to do it, out of want, out of need. As the Dodgers rallied from their 4-0 deficit, it was electrical overload. It was a good ol' time, and a whole lot of fun. We saved our best for last.

Last, alas. It's over now, and 2007 begins for Los Angeles. There's no getting away from what the Dodgers' flaws were in 2006, but they sure gave us some moments to enjoy, and at least one to remember for the rest of our lives. (And one on Wednesday that we'll try to forget, but oh well.)

I want to thank all the readers of Dodger Thoughts for their support this season. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I've spent most of this year acutely conscious of the fact that I haven't been able to bring as much to the table as I have in the past. It has been a demanding year for me careerwise, and I've had to let some news pass without posting about it, couldn't live-blog any games, and found myself neglectful of the farm system for long stretches (it kills me that I wasn't able to do the system roundup I did last September). But when I was dropping the ball, you were graciously not pointing it out (to my face, anyway) and instead just picking it up. I know some people come here not because of me, but because of the information other readers provide in the comments - and that's great. I'm not fishing for sympathy or compliments here. I just mean to say that it's been more of a group effort at Dodger Thoughts than ever before, and I appreciate it. And I truly enjoy your company; I honestly don't know what I'd do without it.

So, on to the offseason. Guess I'd better update that sidebar and get us focused on 2007. Here's to this year, and here's to next year.

Comments (202)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-10-07 22:10:48
1.   capdodger
Thank you. It's been grand.
2006-10-07 22:13:11
2.   D4P
Let the recriminations begin!
2006-10-07 22:13:19
3.   DeucesAreWild
I just got home. I'm still wearing my Dodger jersey. And yet I had to check Dodger Thoughts before anything else. Thanks, Jon - and all the regulars - for another fantastic year as the true Dodger fan's go-to internet resourse.
2006-10-07 22:14:13
4.   ninjavshippo
you stay classy, jon weisman.
2006-10-07 22:14:24
5.   trainwreck
Thanks for this site Jon and all you do. Your calming words always help put things in perspective.
2006-10-07 22:16:05
6.   Xeifrank
Thanks Jon.
vr, Xei
2006-10-07 22:17:21
7.   underdog
Thanks to you Jon. And great recap here as is fitting for a great season. I refuse to feel too down for too long, as disappointing as this series was on many levels, because of how much I'm looking forward to the team's future. So here's to an even better 2007, but I'll be stopping by throughout the rest of this year as well, because I couldn't go too long without enjoying you folks.

(Boy, it was painful seeing all those ex-Dodgers celebrate tonight though.)

2006-10-07 22:20:55
8.   D4P
Boy, it was painful seeing all those ex-Dodgers celebrate tonight though

This from Lo Duca: "I didn't get to pop the champagne here in 2004. I did in 2006. It's a happy day."

2006-10-07 22:21:24
9.   joekings
Thank you Jon, I echo trainwrecks sentiments, many times when my first impulse was anger or disgust I would come here to read a rational point of view.
2006-10-07 22:21:30
10.   dkminnick
Seems like I always post right when Jon puts a new post up top. Here's my last post from the previous thread.:

Hey everybody,

Missed y'all tonight. My computer is down so I was forced to watch the game the old-fashioned way - TV only.

Just wanted to say thanks to Jon for creating this great site and giving this Dodger community a home. Thanks for all your hard and uncompensated work, Jon!

Thanks also to Bob T. for welcoming me when I emegered from Lurkerland, and for cracking me up all year long.

Nate, thanks for your your deep well of minor league knowledge.

And thank to all of you for being part of such a fun, informed, and witty blog. The more I read other team blogs, the prouder I become of the Dodger fans at DT.

I'm not nearly as bummed as I expected I would be after being swept. Loney and Martin and the other rooks have me looking to next year already. it's been a great year and the future is bright. I look forward to sharing the offseason with all at DT!

G'night!

Doug Minnick
Studio City

2006-10-07 22:26:31
11.   Bob Timmermann
The only really painful person to see celebrate is Lo Duca.

I really have come to loathe him this year.

2006-10-07 22:26:42
12.   Greg Brock
8 To answer your question from the earlier thread, it takes about 17-18.
2006-10-07 22:28:51
13.   ninjavshippo
11 - does he owe you money, too?
2006-10-07 22:28:54
14.   NPB
Thanks, Jon. It's been a great first season for me in L.A., even if the playoffs were more than a little distressing. Thanks for all you do, which is way more than big stoner babies like me deserve.
2006-10-07 22:29:05
15.   Xeifrank
11. Loathe, but no grudge right?
vr, Xei
2006-10-07 22:29:37
16.   Greg Brock
11 I take pride for being ahead of the curve. I disliked LoDuca while he was a Dodger.
2006-10-07 22:30:36
17.   D4P
12
Sheesh, 17-18? That's more beer than I've consumed in my entire life. I hate the stuff. That's not only a lot of alchohol; it's gotta be a lot of calories too.
2006-10-07 22:30:54
18.   Tangled Up in Blue
Ditto comment #3.

Jon - thanks for all the work you put into this site, this place is fantastic.

I agree that the crowd was electric tonight. Very similar to the Lima game in 2004.

There is a lot to build on for 2007.

2006-10-07 22:31:42
19.   bigcpa
Thanks for a great year Jon. You had to put down a few uprisings- the various D'Ray trades, the July skid, a couple troll attacks. Most of the year I couldn't decide if I hated this team, tolerated it or really loved it. I think the 1,000 post nights down the stretch tell it all. Fire up the Hot Stove (with a hat tip to Bradley's A's).
2006-10-07 22:32:00
20.   Greg Brock
17 I learned how to drink in the Navy. It's a blessing and a curse.

It's mostly a blessing (Thank you bar bets).

2006-10-07 22:33:31
21.   D4P
Is it just me, or are ex-Dodgers faring better this post-season than ex-Devil Rays...?
2006-10-07 22:34:05
22.   Tangled Up in Blue
21 - That is funny.
2006-10-07 22:38:15
23.   capdodger
I hope Broxton sticks a fastball in his ear next season for that one.
2006-10-07 22:38:35
24.   LA Native
It was an up and down season to say the least. I remember sitting in the stands during the post all-star break losing streak, thinking this team had no chance and we'd be lucky to avoid last place at year-end. We just seemed that bad. Even though the Mets sweep is certainly disappointing, the future looks pretty bright. I have to give Ned credit. I didn't like the majority of his deals but this team made the playoffs, and nothing was sweeter than clinching in Frisco. Hopefully, we'll have a more stable roster going forward with just a few supplements necessary around some core players. Here is to next year.
2006-10-07 22:39:26
25.   popup
A most unusual year. This was not by a long shot my favorite Dodger team, but I must say the 2006 Dodgers gave me moments I will long remember. The Maddux masterpiece against the Giants and the miracle win against the Padres are the high points of the year for me.

Thanks Jon and also to Bob and all the other people who contribute so much to make this such a fine place to visit.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-10-07 22:41:22
26.   capdodger
Another question.... What is with the Champange Celebrations for winning a post-season series. Do NHL, NBA, or NFL teams celebrate like that when they move on a round. It seems a little over the top. Champagne is for winners, not for showing up. For the record, I also don't like Chamange Celebrations for the Wildcard.
2006-10-07 22:44:05
27.   dzzrtRatt
Jon,

You owe no one an apology. You had what seemed like hundreds of thoughtful, informative and crisply written posts. I'm sure few noticed any diminution of effort. Besides, it's quality not quanity that matters. Harper Lee and Ralph Ellison basically wrote one novel each. Anyway, a blog isn't a "public trust" like the Los Angeles Times pretentiously declares itself to be. It's a writer's outlet, and a place to talk. If you ain't got nothin' to say, or no time to say it, better not to force it.

I'm sure this offseason will be more fun than last off-season, just as this season was more fun than last season. So DT will be just as much a part of that.

Thanks for a great season.

2006-10-07 22:44:08
28.   trainwreck
You would have sworn the Tigers won the World Series with their celebration today.

I did think it was a sweet celebration though.

2006-10-07 22:45:34
29.   LA Native
26

I agree it does seem a little much, but then I think there are almost one too many rounds of playoffs. A team has 4 champagne celebrations if they win it all. I suppose I grew up with 3, so 4 seems one too many.

2006-10-07 22:47:21
30.   trainwreck
Some Griddle news...

Yankees are firing Torre and replacing him with Piniella. According to Sportscenter.

2006-10-07 22:49:05
31.   Connector
I discovered Dodger Thoughts the day after the Sept 18th Mirace Game. I had clicked on ESPN, Fox Sports, SI, LA Times, and others, but I was still ravenous for commentary. I live 10 timezones east of LA, you see, and there are few people around who understand baseball, let alone my love of the Dodgers.

Then I googled "LA Dodgers" and this site was one of the ones that came up. I clicked on the link, and ended up spending the next two hours reading posts. Suddenly, I didn't feel isolated and alone anymore. There were/are others who feel as passionate about the Dodgers as I.

Honestly, I don't know how I ever got through the baseball season before DT.

2006-10-07 22:49:41
32.   LA Native
30

Is that true? Wouldn't surprise me, but that would give me one more reason to hate the Yankees. I think Torre is a class act, and you can't blame him for the Yankee failings. They never have great pitching outside of Rivera and their defense is usually mediocre. Hitting alone doesn't do it in the playoffs.

2006-10-07 22:52:33
33.   Xeifrank
ESPN headline:
Dodgers streak into playoffs, streak right out again. vr, Xei
2006-10-07 22:52:48
34.   capdodger
31 - Where have I seen a line like your closing one? Hmm....
===>
2006-10-07 22:53:28
35.   gibsonhobbs88
Great year at DT with all fellow Dodger fans. A great season ends on a disappointing note, but it was fun nonetheless. Looking forward to even a better team next year. I also left some comments at the end of the previous post regarding my views on next year's team. Looking forward to a postseason without the Evil Empire and their $200 million+ payroll. Tigers v. A's should be interesting. Mets have proven to be the class of the NL this year and the NL best chance at a competitive World Series.

Could be a repeat of the 73 World Series? Or Mets v. Tigers would be interesting. Imagine the Las Vegas odds on picking those two teams in the preseason to meet in the series? The Mets I can see, but the Tigers came out of nowhere!! Thanks to all for interesting reading. Talk to you in the offseason when Dodger news breaks on any acquisitions.
Good night!

2006-10-07 22:54:38
36.   Michael Green
Thank you, Jon, and thank you all--including the Boys in Blue--for a great ride. They lost to a better team, pure and simple.

Here's the best news. The New York Times did a story on Vinnie coming to New York to do the playoffs and asked him about retirement. He used his usual line--if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. But he said he can't imagine, unless in a case of illness, ever retiring.

2006-10-07 22:54:57
37.   Connector
34

Just goes to show it's from the heart

2006-10-07 22:57:10
38.   capdodger
37 - Well it's the truth. Once you Dodgerthink, you can't stop.
2006-10-07 23:02:13
39.   Greg Brock
My first season posting at DT has been an absolute blast. I don't think there is a finer place for Dodger fans to get together, root on the team, and share the ups and downs.

Thanks to Jon Weisman for putting together such a great place.

The Hot Stove awaits.

{Sits down and weeps a little bit...In a completely manly way}

2006-10-07 23:02:52
40.   Xeifrank
Fire Toree, hire Pinella. By mid July, it will be fire Pinella and hire Torre. Perhaps Torre can go back to being the color man for the Angel broadcasts. Rex Hudler needs a new gig. vr, Xei
2006-10-07 23:02:58
41.   capdodger
Easy Xeifrank. Yankees fans have feelings too. I think.
2006-10-07 23:03:13
42.   underdog
Wow, if that's true, it's sad for Torre. He was a great manager for the Yankees and their implosion was not his fault at all. But maybe he's better off at this point.

we can hire him to be our third base coach! ;-)

2006-10-07 23:04:55
43.   capdodger
42 - I dunno, can he rub his belly and pat his head at the same time? If he can do that, he should be able to keep track of two runners, so he'd be allright.
2006-10-07 23:07:56
44.   The Saul
I think its be been proven in the Scientific Journal that Yankee fans do not actually have feelings.

Let's start the Arod coming to Dodgers trade rumor, shall we?

He's not a choker, his first 22 postseason games he was great, he just wasn't cut out for New York.

2006-10-07 23:08:37
45.   Disabled List
Despite this bummer of a postseason, I have no regrets about 2006. To quote Sinatra, it was a very good year. We weren't expected to do much, we did a lot, and we had some moments, like the Monday Night Miracle, that I'll remember forever.

I've had a few Happy Meals tonight (PBR and Jim Beam), so I'm in a sage, charitable mood. I've got the rest of the offseason to be bitter and chagrined. Lots of young talent = a competitive, worthy team to root for for years to come.

I can't wait for 2007! When do pitchers and catchers report?

2006-10-07 23:09:13
46.   Nick Iyengar
To echo several earlier posts, many thanks to Jon for making DT far and away the best place for Dodger fans on the web. Despite the playoff disappointment, the 2006 Dodgers gave us our fair share of great moments, and I'm glad I was able to go along for the ride with everyone at DT.
2006-10-07 23:12:22
47.   Bruce Siegel
Thanks, Jon. This blog means a lot to me.

I'm just glad that Loney got to play today. That kid has been awesome in the second half of the year, considering his .380 average in the minors, and his stunning contributions the last few weeks.

He's just one of the reasons I'm excited to think about what next year will bring.

If the Dodgers had lost without Loney in there today, the game would have been a downer for me. As it is, I consider this game a teaser for 2007.

I'm also glad Ethier got an at-bat and hit a bullet (though an out). I think he needed that for his confidence.

It was a thrilling year indeed, and now I can get back to the rest of my life.

2006-10-07 23:13:33
48.   Linkmeister
Jon, you've done wonderful work here all year, as have all (or nearly all - trolls excepted) the commenters.

It was a disappointing end to a really wild season. I've never seen such a streaky team in all my years of watching baseball. Even at the end they won seven in a row and then lost three in a row.

So are we gonna meet here for the rest of the playoffs and WS, or are we going to have to find another hangout?

2006-10-07 23:14:38
49.   Strike4
Jon,
Thanks for being a gracious host and letting us hang out at your place again this year. It's only been ninety minutes and we're already talking about next year.
2006-10-07 23:25:17
50.   Kyle S
anyone know approx how much money we'll have to spend this offseason?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-10-07 23:25:43
51.   Tommy Naccarato
I just got home and I have to say I'm like Bob in loathing LoDuca simply because he was dressed in Blue, Orange & White. Plus, I have to pay off a huge amount of dinners when I get back to New York next spring.

WARNING**For those of you that don't like, "I told you so's," read no further.....

This is a sad day for me. Another baseball season has ended. Sad because I concur with John that today's crowd may have been one of the great ones all primed and ready for a huge victory to send it to Game 4 tomorrow and back to New York to win it on Tuesday. This team of Streak Dodgers figured to win it like that. But man plans, God laughs...

It all hurts because on the other side of the coin was the other guys; the catcher who our once brilliant GM, Paul Depodesta didn't think could last a full season and was nothing more then a fluke player, hitting the hell out of us, bringing the same intensity--HEART which many were ridiculed by many here on Dodger Thoughts when that ridiculous trade was made, literally tossingo ut the window the nucleus of a team that could have beat St. Louis in 04', and who knows, maybe further. The simple thought of that trade and how it divided up some of us was the day I felt Dodger Thoughts sort of jumped the shark, or at the very least--had bred more contempt for fellow fans of the baseball team.

It hurts because I feel the final nail in the coffin was when our former mid/set-up reliever Guillermo Mota) who was also part of that ridiculous trade, literally shut us down when he was called upon for what seemed like two hours of innings. (which ironically only amounted to two innings total).

I don't even want to get into Shawn Green, because that would then show me my own flaws of how I thought his career was finished after witnessing and feeling the pain of double play after double play after double play.

These Mets were simply like a nightmare of facing San Francisco Giants who wanted to come back and haunt their old team toa slow and painful death.

It takes a lot for me to get this out because this team, as streaky as they were had you reliving memories of Dodger good times as well. But then I find myself back at squatre one, thinking about how many here were ridiculed about Moneyball-logistics in the Dodger organization, but many of the pundits of this website that know all, yet would just as soon stiffle discussion in the name of Hep Sop Choi.

That attitude drove me from participating on this once great website, a website I just as much admired when it didn't have comment features in a forum like content.

I feel it's unfortunate that I step in now only the occasional visit to check in and see if anyone who loved the Dodgers as much as me still wanted to be friendly and talk baseball. Not judge a man simply because he knew Moneyball stats and if his shoes were tied. (Call it the Dodger Thoughts Dogma)(in no relation to John whatsoever.)

So, in closing, that's my come back tonight--the one MY Dodgers didn't get to make. Maybe I'll just blame Depodesta's ultimate failure on Joe Beimel. IT seems like the popular thing to do right now....

Congrats on the new job Jon, and I'm sorry to react like this, but the mood and tone just got the best of me.

2006-10-07 23:27:49
52.   Greg Brock
The worst part of today is that I lost my favorite pair of gym shorts.

Okay, it's the second worst part of today.

2006-10-07 23:28:13
53.   Greg S
Thanks you Jon. As I wrote to you early on, the importance I quickly came to place on this blog took me by surprise. I found myself thinking about it and missing it when I wasn't near a computer. I came to realize that like you, I needed an outlet to deal with an important part of my life. Talking about Dodger baseball with those who are not intimately involved with it was unsatisfying but that's all there was.
Through this blog, you have created a community where Dodger fans can have the opportunity to finally meet and get deep into the details of our passion. It is truly a blessing/mitvah/kick in the pants.
It was a real pleasure "meeting" all of the regulars here and I look forward to a fun hot stove season and an even better 2007.
2006-10-07 23:32:39
54.   Claire Malone-Evans
I thought I knew a lot about baseball. That was until I started reading Dodger Thoughts and The Griddle last March. Now I am totally aware of my cluelessness. If the Baseball Hall of Fame ever inducts bloggers and historians, Weisman and Timmerman should be first ballot selections.
2006-10-07 23:32:48
55.   Chris H
It was a great season, but the best part is that this season is only the prologue to a bright future. It's just too bad that we have to wait until March.
2006-10-07 23:33:44
56.   Andrew Shimmin
51- So, if the Dodgers had taken this series, that would have meant DePo was right about everything? Oh well.
2006-10-07 23:36:46
57.   Xeifrank
51. ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Mota was shelled in game #1.
vr, Xei
2006-10-07 23:38:06
58.   capdodger
Tommy - It's just the Old Dodgers beating up on the New Dodgers. Lesser players than these have stepped up when they sit in the first base dugout at Dodger Stadium.

Shawn Green still wasn't anything special this year.
Paul LoDuca was exactly the same as Russel Martin, but worse defensively and older and more expensive.
Mota? He was good for the Mets, but he hadn't been that good in two and a half years.

2006-10-07 23:38:28
59.   3upn3down
Jon, thanks for all you do. I can't remember when I migrated over to your blog, but I can't see my days going forward without it now.

I've got a vacation planned for Cabo at the end of the month, and plan to get caught up on my pleasure reading. I'l be sure to get a copy of your "Best Of" book.

I figure I owe you at least that much for what I've got pro bono from you this season.

Here's to a memorable season. Here's to our time we've spent together. And last but maybe most importantly, here's to a productive offseason. Lets be prudent, lets be proactive, and lets be leaders.

Cheers Blue,

3U3D

2006-10-07 23:38:41
60.   das411
Well, what can I say that hasn't already been said with better words than mine? Threads like this are what make DT great, between Jon and his audience I don't think any of us can find any better example of an online community that means so much to so many of us. It's funny how this blog has almost come to reflect the team itself this season, an awesome mix of seasoned vets, rookies with talent beyond their years, and the occasional long-distance newcomer with something unique and valuable to provide :)

In a way, though, we are luckier than the team itself; we all know that this terrific group will be around all winter to watch the rest of the postseason with. I suspect very very few DTers will just go sit in the corner and read their motocross magazines now! And now that the Mets have advanced to the NLCS, it would make sense for their game chats to be hosted here by Jon still right? I mean, just to make sure it took the best team in baseball to defeat those 2006 Dodgers...

2006-10-07 23:41:34
61.   trainwreck
I never found a use for G4TV, but now that they show Arrested Development a lot. I like it.
2006-10-07 23:41:55
62.   Tommy Naccarato
Andrew,
No, In my opinion, Depodesta was fired for his baseball knowledge, or better yet, lack of it--meaing, I think he not only out-smarted himself, he just wasn't all that baseball smart to begin with--at least running the team as a GM.

I just feel killing the spirit of the team was his main undoing. At least it explains how your former players are on the opposing team two years later getting it done, when Depodesta himself explained that his numbers proved they couldn't.

And who did we get in that trade? Oh yes, the trade wasn't complete because he couldn't even get the key component of that trader to agree to a trade, thus giving our players over to a team that ened up trading them away so they could further rebuild.

In case you didn't notice, we jsut got aweeped by that team with our own players. (former)

Nice.

Also, what NL team won over 100 games this year with those same players? Does this make any sense?

2006-10-07 23:44:45
63.   Xeifrank
is Paul LoDuca logged on?
vr, Xei
2006-10-07 23:45:44
64.   capdodger
62 - Tommy,
The 2004 Dodgers didn't have Cliff Floyd, Carlos Beltran, David Wright and Jose Reyes. To say that the former players are getting it done is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
2006-10-07 23:49:18
65.   capdodger
Oh yeah... or Carlos Delgado. The Mets are a good team, but they're not all DePodesta's castoffs.
2006-10-07 23:49:37
66.   Xeifrank
64. Carlos Delgado...
vr, Xei
2006-10-07 23:50:41
67.   Linkmeister
64 Nor did they have Martinez, Glavine, or Billy Wagner.

It's a silly argument in this day and age. Had LoDuca et. al. not been traded, they'd have reached free agent status and possibly left anyway. The Biggios who stay with one team their entire career are few and far between nowadays.

2006-10-07 23:53:00
68.   Andrew Shimmin
62- We got swept by the Mets whose players included Reyes, Floyd, Beltran, Wright, Glavine, and though not in this series, Pedro Martinez. The Mets would have won their division if Jason Phillips was their starting catcher, and/or if they'd never acquired Green. Whether this series would have gone differently, without them, I don't know, and neither do you. Saying that LoDuca and Green won it seems a little silly to me. Although, saying the Dodgers would have won in 2004, if only they'd kept Mota and LoDuca does too, since that series loss was mostly thanks to the Dodgers not having a single good starting pitcher.

Having LoDuca doesn't make a team good; not having him doesn't make a team bad.

63- You don't remember Tommy? He was on his way out when I was on my way in so I don't expect he'd remember me. But I remember him.

2006-10-07 23:53:23
69.   max power
Addition by subtraction: for God's sake, let's get rid of JD Drew.

Cheers, Jon, and everyone else.

2006-10-07 23:54:25
70.   Andrew Shimmin
And so, three years later, if I can say anything definite about myself, I've still not learned to refresh before posting. Maybe next year!
2006-10-07 23:54:46
71.   Greg Brock
68 I booked a win. It didn't happen.

I'm in a glass case of emotion right now.

2006-10-07 23:56:14
72.   Greg Brock
The biggest problem with the Dodgers this year was the outfield. Kal Daniels just didn't produce as advertised, Eric Davis was hurt all the time, and Strawberry had to battle his demons.
2006-10-07 23:56:53
73.   Bob Timmermann
Tommy,
I would have to say that getting rid of Paul Lo Duca made little or no difference to the Dodgers this year. They have a far better catcher in Martin and likely only with far less baggage than Lo Duca, who seems about one scandal away from turning into Hal Chase.

And how did Paul Lo Duca become part of any Dodger team that can be referred to in the first person? He just got the job because the Fox people exiled Piazza and someone had to take the job.

2006-10-07 23:58:37
74.   trainwreck
Greg, your typing skills are quite good for a guy who destroyed himself.
2006-10-08 00:00:31
75.   Greg Brock
Paul LoDuca serves as the greatest example of a fan favorite for people who don't know anything about baseball.

Calls a horrible game. Frames pitches like a little leaguer. Moves too much behind the dish. Fades in the second half.

Other than that, he's a great inspiration for random Dodger T-Shirts...Now on sale for $9.99.

2006-10-08 00:00:36
76.   Andrew Shimmin
72- Let's do the time warp again! Although, it's about as relevant tonight as DePodesta. So, there's that.
2006-10-08 00:00:37
77.   max power
Did anyone else hear a Daaarrrrryyyyyylllll chant in the stadium tonight? Two of us almost certainly heard it briefly midgame.
2006-10-08 00:01:48
78.   Linkmeister
74 Some people are happy drunks, some are morose. Some can't write longhand while drunk, but they can still type well (I may even speak from sad experience there). ;)
2006-10-08 00:01:49
79.   Greg Brock
74 I'm maintaining a fine line between sadness and complete intoxication.

When I start spelling like fan favorite Bluebleeder, I'll give up.

2006-10-08 00:03:35
80.   capdodger
72 Greg? I have 1992 on line two. Shall I patch them through?
2006-10-08 00:03:57
81.   Eric Enders
69 I'm not sure what getting rid of the best hitter on your team would accomplish, especially when he's already under contract.

I too have come to find Lo Duca to be really irritating. I think he's just one of those guys who you love when he's on your side but who can be really grating when he's not. (Just ask Milton Bradley.)

I really liked this team and thought they could win it all. It'll be a different team next year but hopefully a better one with the rooks now having an MLB season under their collective belt. Here's to a decade of frequent pennants with Martin, Billingsley, Broxton, Loney, Kuo, Ethier, Kemp, LaRoche, and Elbert leading the way.

2006-10-08 00:04:01
82.   Linkmeister
73 Hey, Bob, UH leads Nevada 34-21 with 14:20 left in the 4th quarter.
2006-10-08 00:06:40
83.   Bob Timmermann
But they don't show UH games out here anymore. They're all PPV. I don't like the Bows that much.
2006-10-08 00:07:02
84.   Linkmeister
81 Yeah, one of the reasons I find the LAT Dodgers blog annoying is the name-calling of JD Drew. I mean, he had 20 HR, 100 RBI, .280 BA or whatever it was, played good defense for nearly 150 games, and still there are loudmouths who call him "Princess" and want him gone.
2006-10-08 00:07:34
85.   Greg Brock
Again, I never understood why so many people liked LoDuca. I think it was a a byproduct of missing Piazza, and people convincing themselves that Paul was some sort of replacement. Using LoDuca to wash away the memories of the Piazza trade.

Either way, both of them were garbage catchers..But Piazza sure could hit. Martin is the real deal behind the plate and at the dish. What a player.

2006-10-08 00:08:46
86.   Linkmeister
83 Hell, they're PPV here too. It's one reason the attendance is down (again).

For that matter, for the first time ever, some of the women's volleyball games are PPV. Now that's really annoying.

2006-10-08 00:10:39
87.   Bob Timmermann
We were supposed to like Paul Lo Duca pretty much because Paul Lo Duca told us that we were supposed to like him.

And he was short.

And played in the minors for a long time.

And he was born in Brooklyn.

At least we liked Cesar Izturis because he was a superlative fielder.

2006-10-08 00:10:46
88.   max power
JD Drew does not hustle, and does not amount to $11 mil worth of ballplayer. Don't act like I'm the only one with that opinion.
2006-10-08 00:10:47
89.   eeeddie
I ran into Tommy on the escalator that connects the field level to the loge. He was yelling, "Blue Day! Blue Day!" What a cool guy. He sure looked happy leading the crowd into a frenzy.
2006-10-08 00:12:04
90.   Bob Timmermann
88
Stop picking your names off of hair dryers!
2006-10-08 00:13:19
91.   Andrew Shimmin
85- He was very good in 2001. Lo Duca and Green were the only parts of that season (excepting Kevin Brown for obvious reasons) that didn't suck. But he was never that good again.
2006-10-08 00:14:01
92.   Greg Brock
88 JD Drew and Furcal were the two most productive players on the team this year. That's not opinion. That's fact.

If you don't like Drew because of his salary, that's fine. But don't assume that he was a waste, because he wasn't. He was quite good.

2006-10-08 00:15:22
93.   capdodger
Either way, both of them were garbage catchers..But Piazza sure could hit.

Bingo. LoDuca was really good in his first year and he was coming in after Charles Johnson and Todd Hundley had stunk the joint up. People saw 25 HR from the catcher positionand thought he could be the Next Great Dodger Catcher (tm). No one noticed as his stats declined over the next couple of years.

2006-10-08 00:15:32
94.   Linkmeister
88 Er, didn't I say in 84 that there were others who shared your opinion? I just said I disagreed with that opinion; I think Drew's an asset.
2006-10-08 00:15:44
95.   Greg Brock
91 I can't argue with you because I booked a win tonight, and it didn't happen. Therefore, you have all rights.

And yes, the paper bag is still over my head.

2006-10-08 00:16:25
96.   Andrew Shimmin
91- And Sheffield, though he would have been excepted using the Kevin Brown Clause, too.
2006-10-08 00:17:15
97.   capdodger
88 Heh.... Yeah, JD sure didn't hustle in the second inning of Game 1. No hustle there, eh?
2006-10-08 00:18:14
98.   bigcpa
88 I thought Drew was the guy that hustles through stop signs. Drew was 14th in the NL in EQA and top 5 last year when he got hurt. What's that worth to you? $5M? Joe Randa money?
2006-10-08 00:18:22
99.   trainwreck
Here is a link to Torre being fired story.

http://tinyurl.com/zrd23

2006-10-08 00:18:42
100.   Greg Brock
91 And LoDuca has always been a horrible catcher. I have high school sophomores that frame pitches better than LoDuca does. And he's way too active behind the plate. Russell Martin is more solid than Paul ever was.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-10-08 00:19:16
101.   Bob Timmermann
99
They're already talking about it at Bronx Banter.

I tend to not post Yankees news on the Griddle.

2006-10-08 00:20:22
102.   trainwreck
On the bright side, not all of you are also Raider fans.

It would be nice if we beat the Niners tomorrow, if not I hope we take Adrian Peterson with the number 1 pick.

2006-10-08 00:21:45
103.   Andrew Shimmin
95- .320/.374/.543 25HR for a catcher is pretty great. You're right that he was never much defensively, but capdodger is right, as he so often is, about the context--after Johnson and Hundley, it was much easier to trick us into liking him.
2006-10-08 00:28:57
104.   Greg Brock
103 Yes, and David Halberstam is the greatest historian of all time compared to Doris Kearns Goodwin (actually, he's pretty great compared to anybody). I didn't say that LoDuca was a horrible player. I said that he was a garbage catcher, which he was (and is).

His offense covered up for a lot. Russell Martin's defense makes up for his offensive shortcomings. I could probably make a more cogent argument about this, but I'm a wee bit of the sauced. In any event, Russell Martin is a far better catcher in almost every respect.

2006-10-08 00:29:45
105.   xaphor
So… umm… the Kings won. :)

Like Jon said, Dodger fans did their team proud tonight and it was a fitting atmosphere for a team that never knew when to quit.

No regrets in the loss. The lads played tough and despite coming away without a win, much improved over the '04 series.

I would say I'm looking forward to next year, but I know I'll be checking in tomorrow. So here's to tomorrow and may all your Dodger Thoughts be thoughtful. :)

2006-10-08 00:32:29
106.   capdodger
103 104 Uh..... It seems like you two are agreeing with one another, but arguing nonetheless.
2006-10-08 00:32:34
107.   Bob Timmermann
Great historians:
1. Thucydides
2. Gibbon
3. Halberstam

In that order.

2006-10-08 00:35:33
108.   Linkmeister
107 What? C'mon, Bob, LoDuca has to make that list somewhere!
2006-10-08 00:35:33
109.   Greg Brock
107 David Halberstam was my mother's thesis advisor at UCLA.

I'm a bit biased. I admit as much. Plus, he loves baseball!

2006-10-08 00:36:18
111.   Andrew Shimmin
104- I agree with all of that. I'm well over Lo Duca, but I did love him once. I don't actually mind being told I was wrong to, since that was one of the first things I learned here. But it felt so right!
2006-10-08 00:38:20
112.   Linkmeister
110 But Tommy, would you then never make a trade for fear the players you let go might come back to beat you? That makes no sense.
2006-10-08 00:40:34
113.   Tommy Naccarato
Greg Brock,
I agree, LoDuca is a less then stellar catcher, same with Pizza. I would take Martin over all of them.

It just pains me that we have these guys coming back to haunt us. Seeing Valentin in the dugout when Broxton gave-up the 2nd run, making fun of us wasn't a good thing for me.

2006-10-08 00:41:06
114.   Andrew Shimmin
I'd offer to take Brock outside if I didn't think it very likely that he'd hide me, for my trouble. Regfairfield seems like enough of a nerd that I think I could maybe take him. So, if you're out there Reg, Watch. Your. Step.
2006-10-08 00:42:22
115.   capdodger
You're worried about Jose Valentin? There's another ex-Dodger, but this time he was a DePo signing. What's your take on that?
2006-10-08 00:43:27
116.   Linkmeister
Valentin didn't do a lick of good for the Dodgers while he wore their uniform. Granted he was hurt, but does the management overlook that and re-sign him instead of going after better/younger players? It makes no sense.
2006-10-08 00:43:52
117.   Bob Timmermann
Players move around so much now that the fact that there are former Dodgers on the Mets now is more a case of just where they happened to bunch together.

Now if there were a Red Sox-Padres series this year, then you'd see some real pain.

2006-10-08 00:46:40
119.   Greg Brock
114 You've got me all wrong. Four years in the Navy made me a brawler. Four years at UCLA made me a thinker.

I'd throw a few punches. Then I'd argue on behalf of Locke's views on natural rights. Then I'd throw a cheap shot.

I'm a renaissance man, trapped in the body of a jerk.

2006-10-08 00:47:17
120.   bigcpa
118 Don't take the bait- it's not worth it man!
2006-10-08 00:48:28
121.   Linkmeister
117 A point I tried to make back in 67.
2006-10-08 00:49:19
122.   Tommy Naccarato
112 Linkmeister,
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it pisses me off that we gaveup what I thought was a team capable of winning in 04', players that liked being Dodgers--in LoDuca's case, a career Dodger and then have them come back to haunt us just a mere two years later.

I'm saying I blame DePodesta for that and that the logic behind that trade was greatly flawed. After all, once he traded LoDuca and Mota and Encarcinon (sp) They all went out and proved DePodesta's reasoning for trading them wrong. When DePodesta made that trade, he didn't even have a catcher signed, nor a verbal agreement for Charles Johnson to come back to the Dodgers.

I guess that's my point--it came back to haunt us/them/all of us. All of the players involved in that trade plus more from that era hurt us.

2006-10-08 00:51:30
123.   Xeifrank
120. People who make online threats are pretty wierd. I won't take the bait, don't worry. vr, Xei
2006-10-08 00:53:32
125.   capdodger
" ...that we gaveup what I thought was a team capable of winning in '04...'"

Except they got slugged out of the park. The Dodgers were outscored 24-12 in that four game series. Most of those runs were given up by starting pitching.

2006-10-08 00:53:35
126.   Andrew Shimmin
119- My move is, first. . . shriek like a woman, then keep sobbing till he turns away in disgust. That's when it's time to kick some back!
2006-10-08 00:57:21
129.   Andrew Shimmin
128- That's enough, don't you think?
2006-10-08 00:59:10
130.   capdodger
129 - (flatly) I think he's off the wagon again.
2006-10-08 00:59:39
132.   trainwreck
SNL needs to be cancelled.
2006-10-08 01:00:46
134.   Tommy Naccarato
132I agree...
2006-10-08 01:02:52
135.   bigcpa
122 How did LoDuca prove anyone wrong? He was traded a year later for a 19 year old AA guy. He posted a .271 EQA this year - the very same line as our own Russell Martin. DePo knew Martin was coming and acquired Navarro as insurance. He sold high and acquired a front-line starter with World Series experience in Penny. You shouldn't need Penny to beat the Cardinals twice in the '04 playoffs to see the logic. Young, effective power pitchers under contract are far more valuable than 33 yr old singles-hitting catchers.
2006-10-08 01:05:20
136.   Greg Brock
I'll simply say that Andrew Shimmin is one of the funniest, smartest, and most engaging commenters this site has to offer, and that an an attack on him is like an attack on all of us.

Andrew Shimmin is NATO.

2006-10-08 01:10:20
138.   Andrew Shimmin
136- That's going on my resume.
2006-10-08 01:11:27
139.   bigcpa
Shouldn't we be joining forces to beat up some other blog? There was a Mets fan in my loge section that decided to camcorder most of the game including shots of demoralized fans in the 6th inning. For once we really needed a thug to pummel this guy and nobody moved.
2006-10-08 01:12:07
140.   Chiron Brown
They all went out and proved DePodesta's reasoning for trading them wrong

These players weren't traded because the GM didn't like them or thought they weren't good players. DePodesta thought that the team needed pitching. Often you have to get rid of something you like to get something you need.

2006-10-08 01:12:08
141.   Xeifrank
Glad Jon is here to clear the wierd posts.
vr, Xei
2006-10-08 01:14:01
142.   xaphor
122. Otherwise you and your tired old argument...

Ironic. Perhaps a rebuttal that isn't as old as time itself would be better received.

139. You should have told an usher he offered to sell you a copy of the tape. :)

2006-10-08 01:14:12
143.   bigcpa
141 I before E except in words like neighbor, weigh, weird and xeifrank.
2006-10-08 01:15:06
144.   Greg Brock
138
I have very few loyalties, but they run deep.
2006-10-08 01:21:06
146.   Chiron Brown
88 It's funny to me that in his MVP year Kirk Gibsons' numbers were very similar to J.D. Drew's this year. Gibson had ten points higher in BA, five more home runs and 24 less RBI. But if you jump up and down a lot you're considered a competitor. If you don't show your emotions you're an overpaid robot.
2006-10-08 01:22:42
147.   bigcpa
146 Not to mention the fact that Kirk Gibson is now the 5th closest comp to JD Drew on B-Ref!
2006-10-08 01:28:13
148.   Greg Brock
145 Xeifrank is a great contributor to this site. There is pretty much no reason for you to attack him. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. We're all friends here.

Go Dodgers.

2006-10-08 01:28:24
149.   Andrew Shimmin
144- See, that's just bad planning. There's nobody you can screw over like people who think you're loyal to them. But you need a big pool, and they need to not know each other. Having a conscience doesn't work out too well, unless it's got enough give in it to see, "the big picture." But I do go on.
2006-10-08 01:34:27
151.   xaphor
Has anyone here seen The Duellists?
Show/Hide Comments 152-200
2006-10-08 01:34:32
152.   Greg Brock
149 I don't think I've ever been taught betrayal by a person I've sought to defend.

Machiavelli would be so proud. If he wasn't dead.

2006-10-08 01:36:39
153.   Xeifrank
148. He didn't like my "ZZZzzzzs" and my argument against when he played the LoDuca card. Next thing you know he's challenging me to a fight. Whatever. Time to move on.
vr, Xei
2006-10-08 01:36:51
154.   max power
For one thing, guys weren't regularly knocking out 50 HR's in Kirk Gibson's day. For $11 mil, how about a guy who can knock more than 20 balls out of the park?

And, Senator... I served with Kirk Gibson, I knew Kirk Gibson, Kirk Gibson was a friend of mine. Senator, JD Drew is no Kirk Gibson.

2006-10-08 01:36:52
155.   Tommy Naccarato
Chiron,
Depodesta got rid of LoDuca because he didn't think he was capable of holding up the entire season. Instead he chose pitching over the defensive aspect of what a decent catcher is, and how hard they can be to come by.

Instead we placed our faith in David Ross and Brent Mayne.

Love or hate LoDuca's abilities, he was solid enough to finsih the season STRONG. At least stronger then DePodesta envisioned. The entire DePodesta plan was to complete that trade and also sign Charles Johnson who we only found out later that DePodesta hadn't even talked to him to secure his ability to waive his no-trade clause. DePodesta came out of that deal with egg all over his face. Not to mention that later that off-season, many clubs exclaimed that they would never deal with the LA Dodgers ever again--as long as DePodesta was involved.

But then again, this was the timing when they traded Shawn Green!

Don't get me wrong, I think DePodesta did some things, but as Simon Rodea once said, "When you do some things good and some things bad, then that's bad...."

In the case of Depodesta, he was simply bad. But if you guys loved him so much, then why not invest your following into the San Diego Padres. I'm sure he could use the applause. After all, how many GM's can take the credit for putting together the farm system that was so well put together by his predeccessor? (Dan Evans)

2006-10-08 01:36:52
156.   Greg Brock
150 Don't worry, Xeifrank. You have friends that defend you around here.
2006-10-08 01:40:16
157.   Greg Brock
154 JD Drew actually had a better year than Gibson did in '88.

Sorry. Truth hurts.

2006-10-08 01:42:10
158.   max power
If you only consider numbers, maybe. But Gibson '88 was more valuable than Drew to his team in many, many ways.

Numbers aren't the only truth.

2006-10-08 01:44:48
160.   Greg Brock
158 When you can equate VORP, EQA, OBP, RBI's, and OPS to "Heart", I'll believe you.
2006-10-08 01:50:17
161.   Greg Brock
159 Xeifrank is really good people, and every time he posts a comment, he contributes to the conversation. I'm really sorry you guys don't get along.

Don't take it personally. I can promise that Xeifrank has no animosity towards you, and that we are all here to talk Dodgers.

I really hope you guys can get past this feud, because the arguments among Dodger fans help nobody.

2006-10-08 01:54:48
162.   Tommy Naccarato
Max Power,
I for one agree with you. Nothing will ever match Gibson's stamina that he brought to the 1988 Los Angeles Dodgers, from the moment his hat was shoe blackened and he called the culprit out--the entire team and then got a head start and list of parameters it would take to win a World's Championship. Gibson as experienced

Most here on DT can't give you any idea what that factor is worth--the numbers say it all--every human emotion or physical liability. It has one thinking that if you REALLY could put a number on these things you would be able to cure cancer.

2006-10-08 02:16:00
164.   Travis
Even ignoring heart, clutchness, and other intangibles, Gibson's numbers in 1988 are far better then Drew's in 2006 when put into context.

Gibson was playing in a league in which 30 HR was good enough for second place. The average NL OPS in 1988, park-adjusted for Dodger Stadium, was .687; in 2006 it was .797. Gibson had a 149 OPS+, third in the league; Drew's 125 isn't in the top 10 (136 is 10th).

In non-hitting categories, Gibson stole 31 bases in 35 attempts; Drew was 2 for 5. Gibson also led the league in putouts for a left fielder.

If you're a believer in win shares, Gibson had a far, far better season - he finished tied for second in the 1988 NL with 31 (behind only Will Clark's 37), while Drew finished somewhere around 35th in the 2006 NL with 19.

2006-10-08 02:48:15
165.   Chiron Brown
158 162 I agree that Gibson was more valuable in one respect, he was 1 for 1 with 2 RBI in the World Series. But those are numbers. I believe that his entire contribution to the team can be expressed in numbers. If you are saying that his presence inspired his teammates to do better than they otherwise would have I'll except that as your opinion. I hope it isn't true. I don't want players on my team who need to be motivated. They are professionals, and that means more than just getting paid to do something. It means you give your best every day because that's what honorable men do. If I thought that hiring a personal cheerleader for J.D. Drew would improve his performance by 10% I'd be all in favor of it. But I'd think less of J.D. Drew.
2006-10-08 03:02:13
166.   Travis
164 I forgot to add that Gibson's RBI were so low because he was batting 3rd, behind Steve Sax (.325 OBP, second highest on the team(!)) and Alfredo Griffin (.259 OBP)/Mike Davis (.260 OBP)/Franklin Stubbs (.286 OBP). I can't imagine Gibson had anywhere near as many opportunities to drive runners in as Drew had this year.
2006-10-08 03:21:15
167.   Andrew Shimmin
166- You've done the impossible. You've made me look at the 1988 team with even the vaguest inkling of pity. Alfredo Griffin took 126 ABs in the number two slot!

Fun fact: Gibson was about as WARPier, in '88, than Drew this year, as Martin was WARPier than Lo Duca, this year.

2006-10-08 04:29:12
168.   DXMachina
Jon, thanks for the site, and all that you do. It was an interesting season to be a Dodgers fan, for all definitions of the word interesting, and it's nice to have a place to discuss it all.
2006-10-08 04:37:12
169.   Kyle S
Lo Duca's spite is quite a turn off

From SI.com:

"As LoDuca popped another bottle of champagne, he was slightly more eloquent in the irony of celebrating the win in the visiting clubhouse at Dodger Stadium. "F--- the Dodgers," he said to one of the clubhouse managers as he opened the bottle."

2006-10-08 05:21:12
170.   Sam DC
Can I get a ruling from the Irony Police on the postseason "Thanks Jon; I love you guys" thread being the one where we get our first challenge to take it outside?
2006-10-08 06:31:19
171.   al bundy
Thanks Jon for your awesome site. You've helped make it possible to follow the Dodgers even though I'm thousands of miles away from LA.
2006-10-08 06:59:17
172.   DXMachina
170 Them's fightin' words, varmint!
2006-10-08 07:05:26
173.   Doug N
I cried in my sleep last night, though I knew this loss was for the best.

My only regret was Grady Little's abandonment of his players as they worked difficult counts and were forced to suffer that terrible strike zone. I wanted him to get in that umpire's face, argue like classic Lasorda, get himself tossed, and fire the whole team up in the process. Was not to be.

How long until pitchers & catchers report?

2006-10-08 07:09:27
174.   Disabled List
Wow, this thread went straight to hell after I signed off last night.

I can't believe that LoDuca quote. What a jerk. After all the love that Dodger fans showed him after the trade, too.

I am officially a Tigers fan for the rest of this postseason.

2006-10-08 07:11:27
175.   Gen3Blue
It is this site of Jon's that keeps me from being a bitter guy for the next few days.A few years ago I felt I couldn't be involved with a team if I was going to take things so seriously. But with the help of this place I am able to be a very involved fan and not be so heavily invested in winning.
I never gave up, and I feel OK today.
Only about 4 months till pitchers and catchers. There should be better times ahead. I don't think the organization can screw up the good position they are in.
2006-10-08 07:19:29
176.   RELX
This Loduca/DePodesta/Shawn Green thing is really getting old. At this point, TWO years later, who cares! Between Fox talking about it as one of of the worst trades in Dodgers history (c'mon!) and the never-ending talk from Green and LoDuca about how bitter they are (at a GM who the Dodgers FIRED, which doesn't seem to enter in their narrow-minded spite), you would think that the 2004 Dodgers were the greatest team of all time, not a team that lost in the first round of the playoffs.

As far as Green and LoDuca, I honestly don't miss a 35-year old catcher who can't even knock in 50 runs on an offensive powerhouse like the Mets (and who is such a "heart and soul" guy that he cheats on his wife and has a severe gambling problem), or a 34-year old OF whose hasn't been better than average in four years. I will take Rusell Martin and JD Drew and Brad Penny over these guys, thank you. And, I guess when the Mets don't resign LoDuca after this season--he's a free agent--he can hate them too?

2006-10-08 07:45:53
177.   PlayTwo
Jon, You've done more than could be expected with kid or kids underfoot and work beckoning. Thank you. Bill in Ventura
2006-10-08 08:12:04
178.   Vishal
sigh. i wasn't able to watch. i'm kinda glad i didn't. but i'm not upset, just a little deflated. there's still reason for optimism though. what's the familiar refrain? wait till next year!

meanwhile, at least the A's are alive. it's nice to have a 2nd love sometimes :)

2006-10-08 08:18:34
179.   Eric Enders
Anybody notice that Don Sutton got canned by the Braves? We should bring him over here. Rick Monday, watch your back.
2006-10-08 08:21:24
180.   Woody
My only concern now it to see S.D. lose. What's over is over. No recriminations for me, since I never even expected to reach the post season this year. In some ways this was very exciting and uplifting year, but it was very painful to watch many times. I am glad to see it end, and I know my wife is glad, since I took out my frustrations on her by sulking a numbers of times in the last couple of months.

Hearing two adults (?) squawk over opinions on a baseball blog shows a real sense of maturity. Get a life, guys. I know I need to.

2006-10-08 08:37:08
181.   Tommy Naccarato
Doug N,
You bring up an excellent point. Last night I felt that the Dodgers strike zone was much different then the Muts. If I had as dime for ever inside strike that was pitched let alone that high outside one that didn't even look close to the plate, well, I would have enough money for my season tickets next year. The only guy that seem to really question any of it was Jeff Kent. At least from my vantage point directly behind home plate.

Also, can someone please explain to me what happened with Furcal. At the stadium they not only didn't show a replay, but it looked to me as if Furcal got nipped by a pitch, Grits came out and argued it, as about as much as you would expect a hayseed to argue over a bushell of corn and then back in the dugout he went.

I know this sounds like crying over spilled milk, and truthfully guys, I hate LoDuca now more then ever, even before reading that comment. It just pisses me off that so many of you defenders of that trade that put so much into these Moneyball stats lose sight of the fact that LoDuca, Green, Mota, and others have proven you wrong.

Realizing this statement will more then get me into more of a mess with most of you, well take it for what it is. I do think the stats do have great validity but I don't think they anywhere close to measuring a players truest worth. To me, baseball is a much more complex game that should rely on instinct too, and I just want to see one of you admit that. There is the magic of any given moment where all of the pieces of the puzzle fit together and everything just seems to work regardless of the stats.

2006-10-08 08:40:45
182.   Tommy Naccarato
Woody,

As I posted last night, I am over it. I just feel that everytime I come on this site I tend to get mocked by fellow Dodger fans for my opinion for as unbal;anced and erratic as it maybe.

Also, I'm just as sulky as you are and a little miffed at the streakiness of this team, yet thrilled we got to witness some really exciting bassiebol.

2006-10-08 08:43:39
183.   Humma Kavula
I post here rarely -- and even when I do, the signal-to-noise ratio of my posts is uncomfortably low. But: I read the site every day -- even when I should really be doing something else -- and I wanted to say thanks to everyone. This was a really fun season for me and I think that's in no small part to what went on here. It's a great site and Jon should be proud of what he's created. Even for us mostly-lurkers, it's a valuable community shared by people with keen insight into the game, the team, and its future.

I once saw a book dedication that read, "To my wife, who always knew it would happen, and if it didn't it wouldn't really matter anyway." That's how I feel about this year's team... for me -- maybe not anyone else -- I didn't really care how far they went in the postseason. Sure, winning the Series would have been great, but our theme song's "We've Only Just Begun." We will, in fact, get 'em next year.

Thanks again to Jon and to all for making this place everything it is.

And now that I've been nice, here's the cheap shot...

Party at my place on the day that Lugo declines arbitration!

2006-10-08 09:17:14
184.   JoeyP
It just pisses me off that so many of you defenders of that trade that put so much into these Moneyball stats lose sight of the fact that LoDuca, Green, Mota, and others have proven you wrong.

How did Loduca, Green, and Mota prove anyone wrong? They are role players on a team thats stacked with stars (Wright, Delgado, Beltran, Glavine, etc..) Green went to Arizona, and did nothing. Loduca went to the Marlins, and did nothing. Mota went to the Marlins/Indians and was a complete bust.

Like someone mentioned above, these 3 players are replaceable players. If the Mets didnt have any of them, they'd still be in the playoffs. And thats the key point. Those 3 players (Loduca, Mota, Green) were all paid (when they were Dodgers) as if they were "difference-making" players, when in reality they werent. Thats why they were moved.

Get over it. The 2004 Dodgers won the NL West even without Loduca/Mota, and Green has now been paid money by TWO TEAMS (Dodgers/Dbax) to play for someone else....

You can reserve the right to believe if Loduca had been kept, that the 2004 Dodgers would have beaten the Cardinals. I'm not sure how...since Loduca's bat wouldnt have made a difference, and he cant pitch either. And oh yeah, I'm not sure how the Dodgers even make the playoffs without Steve Finley's 16 HRs over the final 2 months of the year.

Is Tommy Nacc actually Bill Plaschke?
Whats next?
Crediting Loduca's "heart and soul" for the Mets great season....Yeah, I guess Wright, Beltran, Glavine, Pedro, Delgado, Wagner had nothing to do with it.

2006-10-08 09:19:30
185.   Scanman33
169- Unless the Dodgers are a 19-year old community college student who hangs out at clubs, I don't think he would.
2006-10-08 09:19:30
186.   ToyCannon
Wow, to say JD had a better year then Gibby in 88 by quoting numbers is just bizarre to me. Does anyone actually watch the games who makes comments like that. Even before his dramatic homerun we all knew in 88 that Gibby had given us a season to remember.

JD had a fine year but there was nothing memorable about it, nothing that you'll even think about twice. Numbers wise he may have had a comparable year, impact wise nothing could be farther from the truth.

2006-10-08 09:19:33
187.   capdodger
Tommy. You're bringing it up, again. You're not over it.

Why don't you go harass some mets fans and leave us to mourn the loss of our Dodgers. Better yet, why don't you become a Mets fan. You could then root for Dookie, Green and Mota.

2006-10-08 09:25:13
188.   ToyCannon
As Jon said it was a great crowd last night and no doubt the dramatic comeback kept everyone in the stadium. I thought it was a fun year with many surprises and I'm glad we made the playoffs even if we didn't perform to the best of our abilities once we got there. Loney last night just made me want the 2007 season to start tomorrow.

For some reason the Yankee's not advancing has given me more peace about the Dodgers not advancing. I'm now firmly rooting for the Tigers to be the World Champions.

2006-10-08 09:26:47
189.   Jon Weisman
Tommy -

You went so far over the line, I'm in shock. The so-called mocking that you claim to be victim of is nothing compared to the hatred you put forth on the site. You make all these points about the commenters on the site mistreating you, while putting forth just about the nastiest stuff I've seen on Dodger Thoughts in ages - certainly the nastiest stuff I've seen from someone I know.

You come out of hibernation with a full-bore attack on other commenters of Dodger Thoughts, then have the nerve to get offended when someone offers the mildest rebuke. "Zzzzzz." Are you kidding me? That's qualifies you to challenge people to a fight on my site? Give me a break.

I hope everything's okay with you personally, but as for the site, you owe an apology. "When someone posts on Dodger Thoughts, they should do so with respect and granting dignity to those who have differing opinions," you write. Well, why don't you give it a try!

Now excuse me while I take the time out of my Sunday morning to delete the many offensive posts you made.

2006-10-08 09:27:48
190.   Vishal
LoDuca, Green, Mota, and others have proven you wrong

how??? how, please, how? mota has been largely terrible since the trade (and even his NLDS ERA was a not-exactly-haunting 6.75), lo duca was pretty lousy for the marlins though he's been decent in 2006 for the mets (but by this point we have russ martin who is better anyway), and green's performance has been similarly pedestrian since the trade, even though he was in hitter-friendly arizona for most of the intervening period. so i don't see your point.

2006-10-08 09:31:06
191.   capdodger
Heh... I love the bit at the end of Simers's Column about Mia Hamm beckoning a fan to come down to back up his mouth. Funny thing is, she probably would have wiped the asile with him.
2006-10-08 09:31:27
192.   Vishal
[186] i didn't read this thread particularly carefully, but the numbers i saw were making the point that gibson had the superior year in '88, not that drew's 2006 was better.

the numbers defending drew were just that he had a decent year, and that $11 million doesn't really go a long way anymore. not trying to compare him to gibson.

2006-10-08 09:31:42
193.   JoeyP
I thought it was a fun year with many surprises and I'm glad we made the playoffs even if we didn't perform to the best of our abilities once we got there.

I agree.
Baseball is entertainment, and if your team plays 162+ of meaningful games, then its a successful season.

2006-10-08 09:34:51
194.   Frip
Thank you Jon. You kinda got me choked up with that. We can always count on you to set it right. I'm really glad you're a part of our lives.
2006-10-08 09:38:25
195.   ToyCannon
In the top of the 9th last night 6 cops went after a fan who threw his cup of beer on the field as he was leaving. The great Dodger fans noticed the vacant security and took the opportunity to punch a Met fan in the mouth for the crime of rooting for his team. Everyone cheered giving me one of those moments of being a proud Dodger fan.
2006-10-08 09:38:41
196.   Vishal
btw jon, i guess this is a good occasion to say "thanks" for what you bring. so, thanks. :) i just don't feel like there's ever really an off-season for DT though. it's not like, "oh, the season is over so see you in spring training!" i'll be back tomorrow, because i know you'll have a new post and everyone else will be here and there will be stuff to talk about. as always though, DT enriches the already wonderful phenomenon of dodger baseball. you're the syrup on my dodger sundae :)
2006-10-08 09:39:58
197.   Franklin Stubbs
Yeah wow what a season...one of my favorites to not end in a Championship. It hurts to be swept in the playoffs again but these guys will hopefully just build on the successes and get even better next year.

I'm looking forward to the off season discussion of if the Dodgers should bring Nomar back (I say yes!) or other hopeful wishings. I've been going to Dodger Stadium since 1978 and last night was one of my favorites ever. The chanting the nearly willing the Dodgers to win was powerful. I really felt that the crowd noise helped Kent launch that bomb. Throughout the entire season I thought something about a pet peeve of mine: when the scoreboard says "make some noise" or "louder" or something the crowd gets deafening and then simmers down right before the pitch. So it's a brief boom before some return to calm. But last night we were collectively deafening through the pitch which I think is distracting to the pitcher. I listened to some of Vin Scully on the radio and that plus seeing DUKE SNIDER throw out the first pitch was amazing.

Myt favorite moment from the game (this might have been discussed in the comments from last night but after logging on to read one commentor's snide misreading of my Vin Scully/Hugo Chavez thought ... I wasn't motivated to read 1000 more). Anyway....my favorite moment last night was Tommy Lasorda standing up during the game and cheering the Dodger fans on to victory. I think Tommy have a pretty overly favorable reputation and has made some major tactical errors in the last few years (will Orel Hershiser ever come back to LA?) seeing him bleed Dodger Blue all over his front row seat and -- literally -- miss some of the action of the game in order to cheerlead an LA crowd thirsty for a win was wonderful. His dedication to our one team in an era of lolsing players, managers and owners so frequently is refreshing and moving.

It was also nice to hear Nancy Bea play Take Me Out to the Ballgame and then play some interstitial music after the 7th inning. Except for the overly drunk Raider fans posing as Dodgers fans (so much profanity in front of kids obviously in attendance really rubbed me the wrong way). But over all a great season, a great game (even in a loss) and there's a great group of fans here in LA. Sure some people left early but tens of thousands of fans stayed until the bitter end.

Here's to us, the 10th Man!

2006-10-08 09:40:25
198.   Vishal
(and yes, i think a two-smiley post was necessary after the ruffled feathers of this thread)
2006-10-08 09:42:15
199.   ToyCannon
193
And I agee with your 184 so we end the season agreeing for the 1st time on anything. Good way to end a season as we prepare our debates for all the Ned moves this winter.
2006-10-08 09:45:46
200.   ToyCannon
Jon I didn't think you paid any less attention this year then normal and it is your great writing and insight that keeps me coming back though I read the comments with the trepidition of someone who can't help but look at a wreck on the freeway even though they will be bothered by what they see.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-10-08 10:03:00
201.   Marty
This is easily one of the more bizarre threads this season. Too bad, because it obscures the fact that it was started by another (typically) great post from Jon.

For some reason, seeing the Dodgers swept does not bother me that much. Maybe because I never believed they were that good of a team so I didn't have great expectations. They were a fun team to watch though.

Next year I want to see:

Loney at first
Nomar on the Angels
Lugo in Japan
Gio in a rocking chair
Hendrickson on the Giants
A healthy Laroche
Kuo on the mound in the first inning
Broxton on the mound in the ninth inning
Donnelly in Pittsburgh

Looking forward to heating the stove up.

2006-10-08 10:24:45
202.   jasbo
As long as we're in the looking-forward mode, I'd submit that a lot of this season's fun was watching the rooks develop and anticipating the future.

Some of the Dodgers' next-wave players are playing in the revived Hawaii Baseball League for the North Shore Honu (Dewitt and Xavier Paul, etc.) and some others (Chin Lung Hu, Elbert among them) will be playing for the Mesa Solar Sox in the Arizona Fall League.

Let's keep an eye on them over the coming months. If folks haven't already stumbled onto ondeckbaseball.com, check it out. It's a fun site with highlights. Also, minorleaguebaseball.com has info on the AFL.
Sounds like something Nate might be into, and some of the other DT faithful might want to join in.

2006-10-08 10:30:20
203.   Slipstream
Some random thoughts:

This site has altered my relationship to the Dodgers, for the better.

The Mets were a superior team, but the Dodgers had a real chance to win this series--just think about the three starting pitchers the Mets put up.

Loney is here to stay.

Saito not only misses his daughters, but he's going to get a rich offer from a Japanese team.

After all he's done, let's stop calling him Sammy. His name is Takashi.

Baseball has the best offseason of any sport. I'll be checking in here everyday.

2006-10-08 10:37:56
204.   ToyCannon
Elbert has been shut down for the winter so don't look for him in the AFL. The Dodgers are sending a very weak group to the AFL after watching Loney, Kemp, Abreu, and LaRoche last year there is nobody intriguing enough for me this year to make the trip.
2006-10-08 11:14:15
205.   Linkmeister
202 I expect to see a few games in the Hawai'i Winter Baseball League, although the 3:00pm game times are kind of hard to work around.

Here's the site for the league:
http://www.hawaiiwinterbaseball.com/

2006-10-08 11:14:24
206.   Sushirabbit
Ever the late commenter... glad I missed the nastiness.

Yeah, X, THe Duellists is one of my favorite movies, I even own the DVD. Conrad is simply amazing to me as English was not his first language.

It was a nail-biter night for me as I was watching the Dodgers and Tennessee and flipping back and forth trying to stay relatively even in time, so that I didn't see the score for the other game on the game I was watching. My thoughts about the series is that 1) it's a team game, 2) Man, I would hate to be Beimel, 3) Since this time last year we have needed better pitching, 4) what's up with Yhancy? 5) Bills looks like a 5th starter for next year

2006-10-08 11:17:03
207.   Robert Fiore
If you'll recall Lo Duca felt terribly hurt by the trade and I would assume that any bitterness expressed now is a reverberation from that.

Term most likely to be used to describe Nomar's next contract: "Incentive-laden."

2006-10-08 11:50:46
208.   Greg S
I read Saito's comments in today's LA Times to be good news for fans and bad news for McCourts banker. Sounds like he is more focused on not being paid as a 2nd year player than he is on going back to Japan. I think his family might understand if he stayed for, say, $4 million. He's never made that type of money in any country and I imagine the Dodgers would give it to him if that's what it takes.
2006-10-08 13:04:14
209.   Eric Enders
206 "5) Bills looks like a 5th starter for next year"

I'm not sure whether that's intended as a compliment or an insult to Billingsley, but I for one have significantly higher expectations for him next year than 5th starter.

208 Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I read Saito's comments all along as a ploy for more money rather than a genuine desire to return to Japan. Which is fine with me; he deserves the dough. We still will probably end up paying him significantly less than most front-line closers make.

One question I have (Bob?) is: Why was Saito so utterly dominant in MLB while his stats in Japan were fairly mediocre? I doubt the Central League is a higher caliber of baseball. Is it luck? Or maybe American unfamiliarity with his repertoire, in which case we should probably expect a significant dropoff next year? I don't know, but in any case he's a guy I hope to have around next year.

2006-10-08 13:13:07
210.   Eric Enders
Also, the note in the Times about Beimel not being allowed to watch the game from the dugout makes me wonder whether the Dodgers will even offer him another NRI invitation in 2007, or just look around for another LOOGY who might end up having a lucky year.
2006-10-08 13:31:21
211.   50 years a Dodger Fan
201 Marty, that is the best lineup I've seen in a long time...
2006-10-08 14:05:51
212.   Daniel Zappala
201 I wouldn't mind Hendrickson as a long reliever and situational lefty. But that's for later this year. For now, I'm content with how well the Dodgers played overall this year.
2006-10-08 14:27:51
213.   PlayTwo
Comparing J.D.'s stats to Gibson's in'88 falls apart when you get to this category: "Times scored from second on a passed ball." Gibson was determined to win and did. That team's accomplishment has only grown over time with the disclosure that A's were juiced.
2006-10-09 08:00:29
214.   capdodger
213 In all fairness to JD Drew, Dodger Stadium had a lot more foul ground when Gibson played here. The backstop was a lot further away from home plate than it is now.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.