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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
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DrewPodesta
2006-11-12 15:15
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

At the bottom of this post is a list of the top 80 players in baseball in Value Over Replacement Player from 2005-2006 combined. Thanks to this research provided by Dodger Thoughts commenter BHSportsguy, I have been able to rank the players by combined Salary/VORP. Largely because of the hit-by-pitch injury he suffered in 2005, J.D. Drew ranks as the 10th-most-expensive player on the list.

Having nothing to do with what Drew is worth going forward, one can certainly choose to argue that he was overpaid in hindsight, in terms of the production that the Dodgers got out of him - although it's interesting to see the names of the players who rank ahead of him. Of course, many of the names below him have not been free agents yet and haven't had the chance to earn what he has.

Drew was a key man in the Dodgers' 2006 playoff run, but for his two years here, he was an expensive one.

* * *

A lot of people never liked J.D. Drew, and now a lot of people really hate him. Many are already planning how much they're going to boo him the next time they see him at Dodger Stadium, in a manner that I believe has probably been reserved only for Barry Bonds or, in my youth, Pete Rose. Considering that Mike Piazza and Shawn Green have gotten booed steadily as visiting players in Los Angeles, for no reason that I can ascertain, Drew should expect to absolutely get hammered. He may even get worse treatment than Gary Sheffield, the least popular ex-Dodger of at least this decade.

Because I feel none of this venom, I'm trying to understand it.

As far as I can tell, Drew is guilty of the following:

1) a history of wanting the most money he can get, aided by agent Scott Boras
2) being a Paul DePodesta signee, right after DePodesta let Adrian Beltre go to Seattle
3) not showing emotion on the field (Update: this image notwithstanding)
4) getting hurt from time to time
5) not being perfect in clutch situations, though he did OPS at least .900 in clutch situations in 2006, with an on-base percentage of .397 and slugging percentage of .533 in the 7th inning or later with the Dodgers either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.
6) telling the Dodgers verbally he would stay with the team through 2009, before reassessing the market after the season and deciding to opt out of his contract to pursue a raise, giving the team four days' warning.

I guess that the cumulative effect of the above is something powerful, though piece-by-piece there isn't much there. Item 1 makes Drew the same as 99 percent of ballplayers. Items 2-4 won't win him friends in some quarters, but aren't reasons to hate him. (In fact, I'll tell you this - I'm sick and tired for the heat Drew takes for not playing hurt. For every Nomar Garciaparra or Kirk Gibson home run while playing injured, you get guys like Eric Gagne ruining their years if not their careers. Playing hurt, very often, is a hateful thing to do.)

However, I suspect those first four items lead directly into so many people having decided he is a choker, despite the mass of evidence in Item 5 to the contrary. Then, when you add choker to Items 1-4, that gives you a powderkeg waiting to be ignited by Item 6.

Drew broke his word, and for some people, that's enough. I understand the reaction; I'm just not reacting that way. For one thing, the oft-cited September interview with Bill Plunkett of the Register does not indicate that Drew promised to stay. It says he planned to stay.

"I don't plan on (using) it," he said Tuesday. "I've enjoyed my time living in Los Angeles. That's what it was there for – to make sure (wife) Sheigh and I didn't come all the way across the country (from their native Georgia) and get stuck in a situation we didn't like."

Drew said the clause has hardly come up in discussions with his agent, Scott Boras, since the original negotiations. He couldn't imagine any reason for his opinion to change between now and the end of the season, prompting him to use the opt-out option.

"You know what – I don't think so," said Drew, who also has a limited no trade clause. "Ultimately it's my decision, and we're happy where we're at. We love our house in Pasadena. My wife is happy. She's made a lot of friends in our neighborhood and with the other players' wives. That's really the thing that was nerve-wracking about it (free agency) for me.

"At some point, you make those commitments and you stick to them."

Now, in that last line Drew all but assured us he was going to stay - though nothing, from "I don't plan on using it" to "I don't think so" to "at some point" is definitive. A month passed between the end of the season and the warning Monday by Drew's agent, Scott Boras, that Drew would exercise the opt-out clause Thursday. I feel that's enough time for Drew to be allowed to change his mind, promise or not.

Please understand - I know what a promise is. The whole point of a promise is for it to withstand changing circumstances, whether they be the sudden flood of money that now appears to be available to free agents, or Drew hearing tell (as Bill Plaschke's Friday column suggested) that the Dodgers were tied of "coddling" Drew, or for all we know, Drew's wife having a postseason change of heart.

I'm just not sure Drew made a promise.

But let's say that he did. If so, then he exposes himself to the moral consequences of breaking it. But just as every promise is of different importance, so is every broken promise. If Drew broke his promise, what were the consequences?

Contrary to the mainstream media spin, the Dodgers did not lose any valuable offseason time with Drew's decision. Negotiations for outside free agents hadn't even begun; trades have barely started. The Dodgers want us to believe Drew hung them out to dry - if that's even the slightest bit true, then they're incompetent.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been annoyed or angry at Drew if I were Dodger general manager Ned Colletti. I would have. I get riled by stuff much smaller than this. I curse at people for not using their turn signal when they drive.

Above all, Drew didn't put the Dodgers ahead of his own interest. So maybe that's all one needs to set Drew up as Public Enemy No. 1 at Dodger Stadium.

I think the biggest problem I'm having is that so many people disliked Drew in the first place, and have been going out of their way to trash Drew's career, independent of what happened this week. And Drew did play well. Even with the time he missed due to his injuries, he found himself among the best. He helped lift the Dodgers to a playoff spot.

But even though Drew never got into trouble and never complained, even though he did so many things right, multitudes will consider him a lifelong enemy to the Dodgers. Drew is the new Paul DePodesta, a man whose approach to baseball is so anti-cinematic as to earn widespread loathing. I don't know why I'm sympathetic to characters like these when I love the movies so much, except that maybe I realize baseball isn't quite like the movies.

In the end, I can't expect everyone to like Drew, much less politely applaud when he returns in an opposing uniform. He'll not be a favorite son. All I would ask is that people acknowledge what he did do for the Dodgers. It's not all black and white, and Drew did a lot that was good.

* * *

Top 80 MLB Players in 2005-06 VORP, ranked by Salary/VORP
NameTeamPosTotal VORP2005-06 SalarySalary/VORP
Barry BondsSFNlf53$36,000,000$679,245
Gary SheffieldNYArf54.5$26,000,000$477,064
Jim ThomeCHAdh61.5$26,500,000$430,894
Jorge PosadaNYAc64.8$27,500,000$424,382
Hideki MatsuiNYAlf57.2$21,000,000$367,132
Ken Griffey Jr.CINcf68.3$25,000,000$366,032
Alex RodriguezNYA3b142.6$52,000,000$364,656
Torii HunterMINcf52$18,750,000$360,576
Carlos BeltranNYNcf86.1$31,000,000$360,046
J.D. DrewLANrf61.8$22,000,000$355,987
Jason GiambiNYA1b98$34,500,000$352,040
Todd HeltonCOL1b89$29,200,000$328,089
Jim EdmondsSLNcf64.2$20,885,000$325,311
Troy GlausTOR3b66.8$21,000,000$314,371
Richie SexsonSEA1b70.6$22,000,000$311,614
Manny RamirezBOSlf126$39,000,000$309,523
Edgar RenteriaATLss57.2$16,000,000$279,720
Chipper JonesATL3b97.2$27,000,000$277,777
Ichiro SuzukiSEArf80.5$22,000,000$273,291
Bobby AbreuNYArf96$26,000,000$270,833
Derek JeterNYAss139.8$37,000,000$264,663
Geoff JenkinsMILrf55.5$14,500,000$261,261
Johnny DamonNYAcf83.2$21,250,000$255,408
Andruw JonesATLcf102.1$25,500,000$249,755
Mike CameronSDNcf57.4$14,000,000$243,902
Carlos LeeTEXlf71.9$16,500,000$229,485
Aramis RamirezCHN3b86.8$19,500,000$224,654
Paul KonerkoCHA1b93.8$20,750,000$221,215
Lance BerkmanHOU1b117$25,000,000$213,675
Alfonso SorianoWASlf87.7$17,500,000$199,543
Jeff KentLAN2b85.6$17,000,000$198,598
Moises AlouSFNlf69.8$13,250,000$189,828
Vladimir GuerreroLAArf127.6$24,000,000$188,087
Ray DurhamSFN2b73.3$13,500,000$184,174
Carlos DelgadoNYN1b97.4$17,500,000$179,671
Miguel TejadaBALss128.8$23,000,000$178,571
Adam DunnCINlf68.5$12,100,000$176,642
Rafael FurcalLANss89.2$14,600,000$163,677
Pat BurrellPHIlf68.8$11,000,000$159,883
Albert PujolsSLN1b173.7$25,000,000$143,926
Julio LugoLANss63.8$8,300,000$130,094
Kenny LoftonLANcf54.3$6,950,000$127,992
Michael BarrettCHNc59.4$7,200,000$121,212
Raul IbanezSEAlf67.1$8,000,000$119,225
Marcus GilesATL2b55.5$6,200,000$111,711
Jimmy RollinsPHIss87.7$8,850,000$100,912
Carlos GuillenDETss91.1$9,000,000$98,792
Jermaine DyeCHArf92.3$9,000,000$97,508
Tadahito IguchiCHA2b49.3$4,750,000$96,348
David OrtizBOSdh152.4$13,750,000$90,223
Vernon WellsTORcf82.7$7,200,000$87,061
Mark TeixeiraTEX1b99.3$8,500,000$85,599
Morgan EnsbergHOU3b72.5$4,500,000$62,068
Gary Matthews Jr.TEXcf61.6$3,500,000$56,818
Nick JohnsonWAS1b85.1$4,650,000$54,641
Felipe LopezWASss60.7$3,100,000$51,070
Lyle OverbayTOR1b59.8$3,000,000$50,167
Michael YoungTEXss118.4$5,575,000$47,086
Carl CrawfordTBAlf78.4$3,500,000$44,642
Jason BayPITlf122.3$5,000,000$40,883
Brian RobertsBAL2b93.2$3,400,000$36,480
Jhonny PeraltaCLEss62.6$2,100,000$33,546
Jose ReyesNYNss81.2$2,200,000$27,093
Victor MartinezCLEc101$2,300,000$22,772
Travis HafnerCLEdh148.4$3,200,000$21,563
David WrightNYN3b111.5$2,200,000$19,730
Grady SizemoreCLEcf113.3$1,800,000$15,887
Justin MorneauMIN1b52.2$730,000$13,984
Chad TracyARI3b55.9$736,000$13,166
Freddy SanchezPIT3b55$664,000$12,072
Brian McCannATLc61.9$600,000$9,693
Robinson CanoNYA2b70.3$680,000$9,672
Bill HallMILss80.5$764,000$9,490
Matt HollidayCOLlf87.1$816,000$9,368
Garrett AtkinsCOL3b76.1$650,000$8,541
Joe MauerMINc101.6$725,000$7,135
Chase UtleyPHI2b120.1$845,000$7,035
Ryan HowardPHI1b105$651,000$6,200
Hanley RamirezFLOss54.5$327,000$6,000
Miguel CabreraFLO3b146.9$842,000$5,731

Comments (411)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-11-12 15:32:51
1.   jakewoods
why shouldnt drew take every advantage he can and make the most money he can?

no one should begrudge him for that

2006-11-12 15:39:39
2.   underdog
Regardless of how everyone feels individually, I can't imagine the fairness of a world that would boo Drew as much as Gary Sheffield. Sheffield is completely selfish, awful person (who happens to be an incredible hitter). JD Drew is a solid player and a solid person who was arguably overpaid - with whom I'm very disappointed as far as his decision to leave. But yeah, for people to put him with Sheffield as far as the ferocity of boo (or the velocity of boo? I guess that can be measured with decibel levels...) - that seems particularly unfair. Hope people will feel disappointed and not let it get meaner than that.
2006-11-12 15:40:57
3.   willhite
Sports is an arena for letting people vent their frustrations with all that bothers them in their lives.

Certain players performance (or perceived performance) combined with their personality (or perceived personality) tend to attract venom to a far great degree than others.

JD Drew just happens to be near the top of the Venometer because he seems to have failed the passion test.

2006-11-12 15:45:15
4.   dzzrtRatt
Jon, no surprise, I'm with you on Drew. I've said a couple times that his loss greatly lengthens the odds against the Dodgers remaining a contending team next season. I think Colletti blew it, partly out of his irrational drive to distance the team from the DePo years.

I wonder where Drew would come out on your chart if we assumed that 2005 was just like 2006 and he played 145 games. Many of the top ten also lost many weeks of either '05 or '06 -- Bonds, Sheffield, Thome, Matsui, Griffey, and just under Drew, Giambi, Edmonds, and Helton.

This chart also suggests that the highest quality is at the far ends of the bell curve. Either a team pays a lot of money for a great player, or it lucks out and finds a great player in its system, and underpays them as long as it can. If you can avoid it, stay out of the middle.

2006-11-12 15:48:57
5.   confucius
JD Drew had 136 RBI over his two years with the Dodgers. I had hoped for more becasue I thought he would be their major run producer. That's my only beef with him. When you look at the past though, he had never had 100 RBI in a season. So maybe my expectations were too high.
2006-11-12 16:00:16
6.   thinkblue0
is it a completely absurd thought to think we might just go after both Zito and Schmidt and fill out our lineup through trades?
2006-11-12 16:02:51
7.   Jon Weisman
No, it's not absurd. Mainly, though, Colletti figures to "go after" many players, having nothing to do with whom he ends up with.
2006-11-12 16:03:28
8.   underdog
6 Not absurd but highly unlikely. Going after one of them is very likely though, methinks. I think the Dodgers need one more top starting pitcher and with Drew's loss offense suddenly became much more important.
2006-11-12 16:06:24
9.   thinkblue0
8-

completely agreed.

I think we'll end up with Schmidt..I've got nothing to back that up because it's just a gut feeling.

Losing Drew is just...ugh...it's pretty depressing. The worst part is that this year's FA class isn't all that great and I really don't feel comfortable giving ARam money to Carlos Lee. I could live with a Soriano signing, but I'm not huge on him either. At the same time, we can't blow up our farm going after trades. I really wonder what it would take to get Andru Jones seeing as how he's in the last year of his contract...should be an interesting couple months.

2006-11-12 16:10:35
10.   underdog
Yeah Andruw Jones would certainly make me feel a lot better about losing JD Drew and about the Dodgers in general. But what it would take to acquire him... hmm...
2006-11-12 16:14:46
11.   willhite
I think that going after a high-profile player like Jones in the last year of his contract is very high risk. The Braves won't give him away and if we give them what they think he's worth we're likely to have him for one year only.

If we get permission to negotiate an extension before we make the deal, we're talking to Boras. In view of Colleti's comments about Drew, how much slack do you think Boras will cut him in talking extension for Jones. I don't see any way he lets Jones sign an extension without testing the waters after next season.

2006-11-12 16:21:44
12.   oswald
jd drew was introduced to the baseball conscious by holding out on the phillies. he is now hated in philadelphia. he went to the cardinals where he played for tony larussa, one of the smartest baseball people out there. he watched drew everyday and deemed him "a 75% player" meaning you would never get more than that from drew because he just didn't care enough. the braves picked him up and watched him each day. in the end, the braves, who have recently had a great eye for talent, decided to pass on him.

and now drew shows himself to be the person he has always been: a greedy and vacant person. he has chosen to leave a playoff team on the rise and uproot his family in order to grab a couple million dollars more on top of the millions he already earns. there is no reason to hate him for this; if there were, we would have to stop watching baseball altogether because baseball is filled with people just like him.

i imagine that the dodgers will take a step back this next year. but i think that i'm not alone in thinking that the dodgers were at least two years away from a championship. perhaps this gives the dodgers a chance to bolster their starting and relief pitching while allowing the kids to play and grow, if only to see what these boys are capable of.

2006-11-12 16:21:53
13.   thinkblue0
Forgot Jones was a Boras guy...who isn't these days?

yeah, I'm basicallyjust throwing names out there to get some discussion going on exactly how we replace offensive production. Just a really weird offseason

2006-11-12 16:25:32
14.   CharlieBrown
I completely agree with your article, Jon.

I would add one thing that was always a little frustrating about Drew, even though I liked him as a player: his tendency to make weak outs.

Now, I don't have any empirical evidence to support this, just my sense from watching games.

But Drew took many called third strikes, and a lot of the time they seemed like good pitches to hit. Most likely he was just fooled by the pitch and knew it. Drew also hit a ton of little grounders to the right side. Now, I could be off about this, but it seemed Drew did this more than other people. So when you're hoping for a hit and he takes a called third strike, or hits a dribbler, I think that can cause fans frustration.

So, I just think maybe that is part of the reason people don't like Drew, is that his at bats seemed passive at times, aside from any emotion he didn't display.

2006-11-12 16:28:23
15.   underdog
Btw, Jon, I'm with you on the turn signal thing - that really steams me! I go off on a rant to myself whenever someone doesn't use their turn signal especially in a situation where it would have made it safer and easier for me had they done so. "See that little stick attached to your steering wheel?! It's really easy - flick it up or down if you're turning!" Sigh.

{{mutter}}

I say the Dodgers will be one of three finalists for Soriano. Not sure how likely it is they get him, though.

2006-11-12 16:30:13
16.   sanchez101
Where is Beltre on the Salary/VORP list? He 'earned' $28.5 million and 'produced' 26.2 VORP. His $1,087,786 salary/VORP seems like it should top the list.

Jon, I think your whole methodology for trying to figure out why people dislike Drew right now. Trying to apply a logical explanation for the decisions by many people who clearly aren't choosing to think logically won't accomplish anything.

What I think this episode shows is the fundamentally illogical relationship fans have with their team and its players. If you really 'hated' Drew from the beginning you probably thought he was not very good and/or overpaid, in which case you wouldn't be mad at him for leaving. The only people that should be mad at Drew now are the ones that thought that he was an asset to the team to begin with, right? In my mind, you either disliked Drew from the beginning and now are happy to see him gone, or liked him from the beginning and are now dissapointed. That seems logical to me, and yet this doesn't seem to reflect the reaction from people at all.

I was under the impression that most Dodger fans didn't really know much about Drew, and didn't have much opinion either way, they just rooted for the guy because he was wearing the right uniform. (this is LA after all, not Philadelphia or Boston) I think people are just mad, for whatever reason, and sometimes it's difficult to tell why. I'd be nice if we had a press that could articulate things better, or just not have an obvious agenda, but I think that boat has already sailed.

2006-11-12 16:31:13
17.   Jon Weisman
14 - It must be one of those things. Drew had one of the higher on-base percentages in baseball, so I don't know he could be making weak outs much more than many other people.

Beyond that, is the style of out he makes all that relevant?

2006-11-12 16:33:17
18.   Benaiah
If we were going to get anyone in a trade Andruw would seem to be the perfect fit. I think Penny would have to be the centerpiece, maybe with Ethier or Kemp, though an extension would have to be worked out in advance for the trade to make sense in that case.
2006-11-12 16:33:17
19.   underdog
I think Drew just wasn't "scrappy" enough.

Scrappi Du instead of Scrappy Drew.

Or something.

2006-11-12 16:37:44
20.   Linkmeister
I never understood why Drew was so disliked. I often clicked away from the Blue Blog or whatever it is the Times offers because I couldn't stand the screaming about him.

That said, I'm annoyed (not mad, just annoyed) that we now have an outfield position we have to fill that we didn't expect to have to.

2006-11-12 16:40:59
21.   willhite
Part of what's going on here is that some people are feeling rejected, even if they would have been happy to see him traded and never really liked him in the first place.

It's that old "What do you mean you're breaking up with me----------------I'm breaking up with you!" syndrome.

Statistically I really like Drew. I would have preferred to see a little more emotion. I don't have a problem with his deciding to see what he's really worth out there this year. After all, the contract we gave him said he could. As Jon says, he never promised (cross my heart and hope to die) to stay. I, for one, am ready to move on and would like to see Crawford in our outfield next year. I would give up a decent prospect or two to make it happen.

2006-11-12 16:48:28
22.   caseybarker
I was much more disappointed when Piazza left--mostly because he had been raised through the Dodger system. Somewhat the same with Beltre except Beltre wasn't as great as Piazza except for maybe that last year.
2006-11-12 16:49:52
23.   thinkblue0
22-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Piazza offered something like 96 mill that he turned down?

2006-11-12 16:52:47
24.   Linkmeister
Retroactive psychoanalysis here, but I suspect the anger over Piazza's departure had elements of "Man, you were the 650th draft pick and we stuck with you; you owe us!"
2006-11-12 16:55:53
25.   caseybarker
23 I'm pretty sure he eventually accepted less money from the Mets that he was offered by the Dodgers. I'm certain that he did not get much more than he would've with the Dodgers.
2006-11-12 16:56:29
26.   twerp
19 A funny: a sports editor once wrote a column about a high school football team on the fringe of the paper's circulation area. The team was undersized, undermanned, undereverythinged. It still managed to win more games than it should have.

He wrote that it was probably the "scrappiest" team in the whole area.

Due to a uncaught typo, the story came out "crappiest." Guess where the only part of the press run where the typo appeared went?

Yup. How to win friends and influence circulation....

2006-11-12 16:57:07
27.   Jon Weisman
16 - The list includes only the Top 80 VORP performers from 2005-06.
2006-11-12 17:05:03
28.   caseybarker
I know where I went wrong.

Piazza wanted 7 years-100 million: 14.15 million per year

Dodgers offered 6 years-80 million: 13.33 million per year

Piazza got 7 years-91 million: 13 million per year

I guess the extra year made the difference.

2006-11-12 17:06:30
29.   caseybarker
By the way, the Dodgers offered either 80 or 84 million, depending on the source.
2006-11-12 17:09:55
30.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I'm a bit disappointed in Drew, but I hardly hate him. And beforehand, I was certainly on his side so-to-speak, and I still think he's a player who's received a raw deal from the moralistic excesses of baseball culture.

But really, at the end of the day, it's hard for me to muster any sympathy for a fellow who could turn down 3 yrs/33 million a year. JD Drew may very well be booed in LA the same way he's booed in Philly to this day, but he'll have his millions as fair compensation. I'm too lazy and indifferent to boo him, in the same way that I didn't usually bother to participate in the booing against even Barry, but there's no chance I'm going to feel very much sympathy for Drew's plight. If one can call it that.

WWSH

2006-11-12 17:11:16
31.   confucius
Like H.S. Choi before him, J.D. Drew is going to become the new Roe v. Wade of Dodger Thoughts.
2006-11-12 17:14:17
32.   mountainmover
For the record, I am not a JD Drew hater. I will not boo him. I think he has a perfect right to opt-out of his contract. I do however, believe that JD Drew is passive, dispassionate and aloof to people around him. He is not a guy I would want to go to war with. Ned has his own reasons for being angry - reasons we may never know, and hopefully he'll let it go.

JD's .900 OPS in clutch situations was enhanced by his proclivity to walk. If we had had a couple of mashers, JD would have been awesome in the #2 or #6 spot. For us, he had to be a #3, #4 or #5 hitter and I just don't think he's that guy... unless of course, #3 is Ramirez and #4 is Ortiz! Then he'll be great!

2006-11-12 17:16:45
33.   Warren
J.D. Drew is the guy who in the bottom of the ninth with a runner on, 2 outs, tie game, will take 4 fastballs 1 inch off the plate for the walk. He's a more consistent Hee Sop Choi.
2006-11-12 17:20:16
34.   Warren
Mountainmover, I couldn't agree with you more. Drew seeks to be paid as a #3 or #4 hitter but wants to play like a #2 or #6. My main complaint is that he plays everything safe. From injuries to at bats to balls off the right field wall. He almost never takes chances. Some may applaud that. I don't. Give me the guy who goes out on a limb and fails over the guy who always plays it safe.
2006-11-12 17:24:09
35.   Bob Timmermann
34
Say hello to Jason Repko!
2006-11-12 17:25:04
36.   confucius
Everyone seeks to be paid like a 3 or 4 hitter though. If someone offered Kenny Lofton 55 million I gaurantee he'd take it.
2006-11-12 17:27:30
37.   LADfan in IL
How about 2 homers in a 61 game span from May 9th to July 28th? At $11 million a year, isn't that enough of a reason to be happy he's gone? First off, I don't understand why ANYONE is mad at J.D. Drew.

I am as happy as I was shocked that he opted out. I kinda got the impression it was Xmas early. So why would anyone be mad? If anything, they should be thanking him.

2006-11-12 17:28:40
38.   scareduck
getting hurt from time to time

This is a gross understatement. He played in fewer than half of his games last year (yes, yes, I know it was a HBP), and this year, for only the second time in his career, he plays in more than 140. Color me unimpressed.

As for the lack of hustle, well, color me unimpressed. Garret Anderson often takes the Cadillac epithet because of his refusal to hustle; meantime, Darin Erstad, "Mr. Hustle", has collapsed thanks to the all-out style of play beloved by so many fans. I won't argue that Anderson is a good player anymore, but how many players battered themselves into irrelevance? And if you're known to be fragile in the first place, does it really pay to be aggressive to the point of self-injury?

2006-11-12 17:30:35
39.   CanuckDodger
On another Dodgers board, an A's fan who hasn't struck me as being a nut in the past says that Oakland and the Dodgers are talking about a Harden/Swisher/Duchscherer for Billingsley/Kemp trade. He provided no link and reported no non-internet source, so I'm calling it a hoax unless/until a legitimate source for this emerges.
2006-11-12 17:33:24
40.   sanchez101
37."First off, I don't understand why ANYONE is mad at J.D. Drew."

I don't understand why ANYONE is capable of not understanding that other people can have different opinions and would rather not be interested in why those people would choose to hold such opinions.

For the record, I agree that loosing Drew is probably a good thing, but the reason is because his health is not dependalbe enough to warrent anything like the money that was coming to him, not because of something as silly as the reason you stated.

2006-11-12 17:35:42
41.   50 years a Dodger Fan
I don't like JD Drew; nothing he could have done would change that so the way he left really doesn't bother me. But just for the record, last Monday evening, less than one week ago, he assured Donnelly the third base coach that he intended to stay here and was looking forward to next season.
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061110&content_id=1738803&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la
Maybe that is why Colletti was so upset about it, perhaps he felt Drew lied to them deliberately and sandbagged them. I don't care. We'll do just as good without him.
2006-11-12 17:37:02
42.   sanchez101
39. If Beane is willing to trade Harden for anything less than a superstar-caliber player (which the Dodgers don't have), we don't want him.
2006-11-12 17:39:33
43.   bearlurker
Sorry if this already has been answered, but does anyone know whether the Dodgers can offer Drew arbitration?
2006-11-12 17:46:17
44.   Bob Timmermann
Free agents can be offered arbitration until December 1. The new CBA moved up the date from December 7.
2006-11-12 17:47:09
45.   LADfan in IL
40 What is silly about what I stated. I think it's a gift he opted out. You seem to feel the same way. Whether it's because he can't stay helathy enough as you say, or he simply isn't worth the money, even when he is healthy, as I think, what's the difference?

Plain and simple, he did the Dodgers a favor, so why be mad at him?

That's what so perplexing. Most people I talk to and places I read, the fans are ecstatic he's gone. I guess I just figured that was pretty much across the board.

2006-11-12 17:49:05
46.   Bob Timmermann
I think it's obvious that there is one person to blame for this breakup between the Dodgers and Drew:

Yoko Ono.

2006-11-12 18:10:32
47.   D4P
I don't have a problem with players who are more loyal to money than they are to a team and its fans, but if they're not loyal to me, I see no reason to be loyal to them. Unlike as a youth, as an "adult" I find it difficult to really root for most professional athletes.
2006-11-12 18:17:51
48.   Bob Timmermann
How can you be loyal to money? It's an inanimate object.

But I do like this one particular quarter I've got in my pocket.

2006-11-12 18:18:04
49.   Greg Brock
Hey, the thread is all stretchy!

Wha happen?

2006-11-12 18:18:35
50.   Benaiah
45 - I look at it this way: The Dodgers just lost arguably their best player and unless there are extenuating circumstances I would always be disappointed with that outcome. JD Drew, for better or worse, made the Dodgers a better team than anyone who could replace him (in our system). Now, if you believe that his lack of personality, fragile body and his 11 million dollar salary (which is hardly ridiculous in this day and age) constitute a reason to be happy he is gone, I can respect that. I don't agree, but I can see where you are coming from. From my perspective, I think it is impossible to find another player like him (400 OBP corner outfielder with decent power), because there are only a few players like that (Manny, Jason Bay, Barry Bonds, Bobby Abreu, Vlad) and none of them are available/reasonable. JD's production will be missed without a doubt, even if JD himself fades into a non-descript or unpleasant memory.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-11-12 18:20:12
51.   D4P
48
How can you be loyal to money?

No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can't serve both God and Money.

49
Looks like 41 happened

2006-11-12 18:22:18
52.   Greg Brock
tiny url is your friend.
2006-11-12 18:22:42
53.   Sam DC
This, from the NY Times Article on the big Jaret Wright trade:

The Yankees' lineup is mostly set, with a right-handed-hitting first baseman — Nomar Garciaparra, perhaps — the most pressing need.

Can you imagine if someone in 1998 had said, Hey, did you know that in a few years the Yankees will Have Jeter, Nomar, and A-Rod playing in the same infield?

2006-11-12 18:28:48
54.   Andrew Shimmin
No. The Yankees aren't allowed to have Nomar. They have the last pick. Nomar goes to Texas. Unless they want Drew or Lugo instead, in which case Nomar goes to Houston or St. Louis, and Lugo goes to the last of the three.
2006-11-12 18:34:59
55.   Sam DC
Well, Nomar would never be selfish as to sign with New York leaving us with just the last pick. He's no JD Drew.
2006-11-12 18:35:45
56.   StolenMonkey86
I don't think it's altogether silly to be frustrated with the need to "coddle" JD Drew.

The thing about Drew is that with the constant need to rest him, that requires using someone else off the bench in his place. Grady played him right, but even then, he's not going to play 155 games. Further, the statistic of 146 games is a little misleading because Drew pinch-hit several times, and he actually only started 131 games. He had an .891 OPS on the year, but if you add the plate appearances of the other right fielders, that number ends up at something like .852.

Bottom line: durability matters. Acquiring a Soriano or even Carlos Lee type player would have a net improvement on the team because they would require less of the bench. While the Dodgers do have a lot of depth, that depth is generally not going to do a lot more than .700 OPS, except for Olmedo Saenz.

2006-11-12 18:39:27
57.   LADfan in IL
50 Well, I can respect your opinion regarding his OBP, but the decent power you speak of, left me wanting an awful lot more from someone making $11 million.

First off, he hit only 20 homers, and half of them came in April and September. Maybe it's just me, but 10 homers in a 4 month period shouldn't be that hard to replace.

2006-11-12 18:42:00
58.   Sam DC
57: You don't want to replace the other ten?
2006-11-12 18:44:47
59.   LADfan in IL
58 Hey, yeah, let's replace those too!

More importantly, I'd rather they just replace a player who seems to disappear for long stretches.

I can accept that from a rookie making $200,000, but not from a veteran making $11 million!

2006-11-12 18:47:00
60.   screwballin
Those who dislike Drew for his "passive" nature, you must be big fans of the typical bling-bling, get-me-more-touches, I-AM-the-team NBA player.

Me, I prefer someone who goes out there, doesn't try to show anyone up and tries to help the team. I will miss JD for all of those qualities.

2006-11-12 18:49:39
61.   sanchez101
57. OK, now how are we going to replace the 89 walks, 34 doubles, 6 triples, .283 batting average, and GG caliber defense, all in the same player. Im cool with Drew leaving, but let's be fair, a player is more than his HR total between May and August.

Power is more than homeruns, a 200 ISO SLUG% is nothing to scoff at,especially when it comes with a good batting average. The best measure of power is Slugging Percentage, not HR total.

He was advertised as a .900 OPS talent before he was signed and in a healthy season, that is exactly what he did. He was also advertised as a player who would need to be coddled and would probably miss significant time to injury, and that is exactly what he did.

Drew's season is a perfect example for why homerun totals and power are not the same thing.

2006-11-12 18:51:21
62.   sanchez101
60. Just because you respect your opponents and don't approve of gross displays of wealth doesn't mean you can't expand your strike zone once in a while.
2006-11-12 18:52:19
63.   Benaiah
61 - Took the words right out of my mouth.
2006-11-12 18:53:09
64.   LADfan in IL
60 I couldn't agree with you more! If given the choice of the me-me player or someone like Drew's personality, I'd take Drew's everytime and twice on Sunday!

That being said, is it asking too much for him to hit 40 homers with those personality qualities instead of 20?

You see, bottom-line, the nice-guy, don't show up anybody approach is great....as long as it includes production as well!

2006-11-12 18:54:37
65.   screwballin
61 Amen, brother. Interesting quote from Grady: "The way I look at it, it gives someone else a chance to do what J.D. did for the Los Angeles Dodgers, whether [the player is] in our organization now, or not. It will open the door for someone."

Thing is, what if there ISN'T anyone who can replace him? Just because we want one of the few FA outfielders who might match that production, it doesn't mean we'll get one.

2006-11-12 19:08:10
66.   LADfan in IL
65 Before we go putting Drew in Cooperstown, let's remember the Dodgers didn't win it all with him, and can certainly "not win it all" without him.

I trust there will be someone in RF for the Dodgers in 2007, and beyond, and we'll see how the team fares.

And, who said we want "any" of the FA outfielders?

2006-11-12 19:11:00
67.   Andrew Shimmin
And so Bob, International Wardriver, says a silent prayer of thanks that he didn't take his last vacation in Singapore.

http://tinyurl.com/ybh5nn

2006-11-12 19:14:22
68.   Andrew Shimmin
64- I wish every Dodger were better than he actually is. But it doesn't seem very sporting to blame any of them for failing to be.
2006-11-12 19:15:42
69.   LADfan in IL
61"OK, now how are we going to replace the 89 walks, 34 doubles, 6 triples, .283 batting average, and GG caliber defense, all in the same player."

Believe it or not, Drew wasn't even on the team 3 years ago, and all the years before that. How did the Dodgers get by then...without him?

The guy is a complimentary ball player who made $2.6 million less than Pujols made last year.

2006-11-12 19:16:33
70.   Bob Timmermann
67
It turned out that I wasn't Wardriving in Japan. My friends had a wireless hookup in their house. I asked them if they had "wifi" and they didn't know that term. They just knew "wireless".
2006-11-12 19:17:39
71.   D4P
70
I would have pegged Bob as more of a "wireless" kinda guy than a "wifi." Guess he's edgier than I thought...
2006-11-12 19:17:50
72.   saltcreek
From Rotoworld....
Cubs re-signed third baseman Aramis Ramirez to a five-year, $73 million contract.
2006-11-12 19:17:52
73.   Bob Timmermann
69
The guy is a complimentary ball player who made $2.6 million less than Pujols made last year.

JD always has nice things to say about you too.

2006-11-12 19:20:51
74.   LADfan in IL
68 Who said anything about blame? I don't blame Drew for not being able to hit 40 homers. He is what he is.
2006-11-12 19:22:15
75.   LADfan in IL
73 Stop me when I lie!
2006-11-12 19:24:56
76.   Andrew Shimmin
75- This is Los Angeles; none of us respect the truth, or honor.
2006-11-12 19:27:00
77.   LADfan in IL
72 "Cubs re-signed third baseman Aramis Ramirez to a five-year, $73 million contract."

I saw that. Looks like the Cubs got the home-town discount. Thank God. I feared the Dodgers were going to be the ones over-paying him!

Now, if we can just get Soriano, Lee, and Zito signed by other teams, there's a chance the Dodgers won't screw up this offseason.

2006-11-12 19:28:10
78.   Bob Timmermann
73

That was actually my very subtle way of saying that the word you wanted was "complementary".

2006-11-12 19:29:36
79.   StolenMonkey86
61 - of course, slugging percentage can be confounded a bit by speed. Speed will make a player more likely to go for a triple, and occasionally more likely for a double. Carl Crawford had 18 triples this year, and given that he stole 58 bases this year too, he probably legged out more than a couple of those.

Then there some of it that's just luck. A line drive to the gap is not drastically different from a line drive directly to the fielder, except that the gapper is good for a double while the fielder is an out.

2006-11-12 19:29:47
80.   Benaiah
65 - Here is a list of FA right fielders:

Moises Alou (more power than Drew, but even riskier)
Jeromy Burnitz (no)
Jose Guillen (I thought we got rid of Milton Bradley?)
Trot Nixon (maybe if it was 2003)
Jay Payton (completely empty batting average)
Daryle Ward (not unless he can replicate his PH #s)
Bernie Williams (sign Clemons too!)

Other outfielders:
Darin Erstad (he plays hurt, bad but on the field)
Steve Finley (only for use as a 9th inning PH)
Kenny Lofton (pass)
Gary Matthews Jr. (can he replicate 2006?)
Jaun Pierre (the poor man's Dave Roberts, despite what the media thinks)
Dave Roberts (I prefer him to Lofton anyway)
Barry Bonds (controversial... but exciting)
Frank Catalanotto (homeless man's JD Drew)
David Dellucci (has had two nice years in high offense environments)
Luis Gonzalez (pass)
Todd Hollandsworth (pass)
Ryan Klesko (maybe a few years ago)
Carlos Lee (great power, mediocre everything else, huge price)
Alfonso Soriano (only 3 months younger than Drew, at least 50% more expensive, much worse defensively, only one time in past four years has he had a higher OPS, terrible OBP besides this year when it was mearly decent. Only advantages are health and speed)
Shannon Stewart (empty batting average)
Rondell White (pass)
Preston Wilson (pass)

All that is to say, there is no replacement for JD Drew without a trade or a much higher salary (and in the case of a trade, probably both). If Ned gets creative the money might be used to make the team better, but it can't buy a superior 1 to 1 replacement.

2006-11-12 19:32:40
81.   LADfan in IL
78 Sorry.

Heck, I only missed it by 4 letters. :)

2006-11-12 19:37:02
82.   Bob Timmermann
I'd prefer a supplementary player. They are twice as valuable as complementary players!
2006-11-12 19:40:57
83.   natepurcell
can cat play CF?
2006-11-12 19:43:17
84.   Daniel Zappala
The best strategy might be to sign whatever good pitchers we can get, then play Kemp, Ethier, and Anderson. Get enough pitching surplus to trade one starter for outfield help if needed.
2006-11-12 19:45:59
85.   Andrew Shimmin
Catalanotto is a Type A free agent by exactly one spot. And it's because Milton Bradley slacked off half the season, instead of beating him out for that spot.
2006-11-12 19:46:14
86.   Fallout
As far as I can tell, Drew is guilty of the following:
1) never gave it much thought till now
2) got over it--but the question can be asked: In hind sight, now that Drew only played 2 years with the Dodgers, would they have been better off signing Beltre for 5 years?
3) don't really care--but you cannot have a team full of them
4) problem--3 surgeries b4 last season. He's not going to get more reliable.
5) who is?--always disappointing when a player doesn't come through in the clutch. When it was discussed that Drew stuck out 18% of the time with runners on base and 18% of the time when no one is on says a lot. He's consistent. I appreciated him more.
6) cumulative effect was powerful.--that is why it surprised me.--also I thought 3yrs and 33M wasn't bad especially for someone who needed extra care. Stan Conte was hired just for him. (OK, not exactly)

What gets me the most is that even though I'm wasn't a Drew fan, I rooted for him because he was a Dodger. I wanted him to hit 30 HR and get 100+ RBI. I thought that he would be here for 5 years given his contract and all that he said. (though a promise I never read) I was invested in him. Now I'm disappointed.

2006-11-12 19:55:28
87.   Slikk
I can't believe you spent so much time defending Drew, Jon. He's not worth it.
2006-11-12 19:56:06
88.   Steve
and all the years before that

Stop.

2006-11-12 20:03:25
89.   ImChuck
Although it goes without saying that players always want more money, it's simply frustrating when I see players drop an $11 million dollar contract to seek a bit more. You must be kidding me - $11 million per year is more than what some countries run on. People are starving in half of this world, and yet we have players like Drew who are unsatisfied with $11 million dollars of income. How much more do you need. It's understandable when you're getting paid league minimum and want some more, but it's another thing to seek more furtune on top of a mountain you have already built.
2006-11-12 20:08:26
90.   DodgerfaninNY
How many prospects is Vernon Wells worth?
2006-11-12 20:09:28
91.   Bob Timmermann
According to the International Monetary Fund, the smallest GDP of any of its 180 member countries is $63 million by Kiribati.

According to the CIA World Factbook, two small island nations that are really protectorates of New Zealand, Niue and Tokelau, have GDPs under $11.

2006-11-12 20:12:16
92.   xaphor
Drew played this situation like a complete professional, whether he meant to or not. You do not spout off about using your opt out clause half way through the season and ruin the chemistry within the clubhouse and certainly within the stadium. You lie your posterior off, and then once the season ends you inform your agent of your intentions and take leave of the team. I would have done the same thing. [Unless you are talking about Shawn Wright-Phillips… Grrrr. :)]

I'm confused about the arguing about his worth though. Most people who liked him and thought he did a decent job are not sore he left, while those that despised him and thought he gave nothing to the team are using this situation to get a few more good whacks in before he is completely out of the picture. So if no one is tore up about his departure, can't we let the guy leave in peace for our own sanity?

By the way I liked the SI write-up Jon. It's rare you see an off-season wish list that doesn't suppose onto itself to pick the players who will end up with which team and invariably get them all wrong. :)

2006-11-12 20:16:14
93.   natepurcell
bears defense is going to win my fantasy game for me.

me so happy!

2006-11-12 20:19:34
94.   Bob Timmermann
Do fantasy football leagues pay off for missed field goal returns for TDs?
2006-11-12 20:21:59
95.   sanchez101
Is there a way we can sign both Alou and Gonzalez, and platoon the both of them? I would rather pay the two $11 million combined than Drew the same amount.

My gut feel at this point (and that's all it's worth) is that Ned "the mustache" Colletti will sign either Moises Alou or Luis Gonzalez and then trade for a B-grade corner outfield prospect like Brandon Jones or Eddy Martinez-Esteve, hoping that he can recreate the magic of Ethier. If he trusts the scouting staff, he might be right.

2006-11-12 20:22:40
96.   CanuckDodger
90 -- Too many things wrong with that question. Quantity of prospects is irrelevent if they are prospects we don't care about losing, and it is how much is ONE YEAR of Wells at $13.5 million worth before he demands a Carlos Beltran contract after 2007. Long story short, the Dodgers shouldn't trade for Wells. The Blue Jays can find another sucker.
2006-11-12 20:23:11
97.   natepurcell
so far in the DT yahoo league, it counts as a defensive td.

which is great for me since i have chicago d and that td just gave me the lead.

who knows they might change it later. I still have a chester taylor td reception that needs to be accounted for.

2006-11-12 20:24:05
98.   GoBears
Bravo, Jon. Great post.
2006-11-12 20:26:06
99.   sanchez101
90. somewhere between 2 good ones and 1 half-decent pitching prospect and 1 good one, 1 solid one, and 1 half-decent pitching prospect

My guess, though, is that Toronto is looking for both a good prospect and someone who can really help them in 2007, at least.

2006-11-12 20:29:09
100.   CanuckDodger
95 -- Kemp is more MLB-ready than Brandon Jones and Martinez-Esteve.

Here's a question for you, if we could get a 2007 in the majors from Kemp comparable to Jeff Francouer's 2006, how many people think that would be a bad thing? Kemp walks more, but outside of that they are similar specimens through age 21.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-11-12 20:33:30
101.   jeff angus
I think one of Drew's problems is a self-involved personality. Clearly that shouldn't matter ultimately, but it's hard when you roll in its consequences with the occasional Manny-Ramirez-style errors of non-involvement in the outfield (which of course don't outweigh the fact he seems to have good range most of the time), and his injury frequency.

In St. Louis, anyway, he had some history of bad relations with kid fans. Wouldn't go out of his way to autograph stuff in public settings away from park, ridiculed a few younger female fans for their looks. Nothing fatal but I think it undermined him there.

So his self-involved personality reinforces the early judgement of him based on the pre-rookie holdout.

In the end, these are factors that pre-dispose fans to look beyond the overall on-field contribution and judge him as less of an asset. I disagree with them, but I can see their point, too.

2006-11-12 20:38:10
102.   underdog
I can't believe I'm already tired of talking about the JD Drew story - I initially would've given it another week at least.
----

My fantasy football team was taken out back and shot this evening at 8:11 PM. There were no survivors.

2006-11-12 20:39:45
103.   Robert Fiore
I think the visceral belief of the average fan is that any player ought to be willing to stay with the team indefinitely regardless of what he gets paid or what other opportunities may present themselves. They don't ask themselves, "am I really entitled to resent this player," they just do it. I don't think the resentment would be any less if he hadn't as good as said he was staying, though that fanned the flames.

As to folk beliefs about a player (he's a quitter, he's soft, he doesn't hit in the clutch), if people are invested in these ideas all they need to maintain their beliefs are a few anecdotal instances. Anyone who doesn't have conventionally gaudy statistics (and some that do) is vulnerable to this sort of perception.

2006-11-12 20:40:59
104.   Jon Weisman
87 - The entire reason for my post, in a nutshell.

92 - Thanks. Believe me, I haven't a clue who will end up where.

2006-11-12 20:42:12
105.   Uncle Miltie
95- Martinez-Esteve is a future DH. Also, why would the Giants trade him to the Dodgers unless they were getting a good young player in return? An outfield of Alou, Gonzalez, and Lofton (throw him in since we need a CF) might be the worst in the history of baseball. And I thought nothing could top the Giants outfield last year.

I've gotten to see Alou a lot over the past two years since I go to school up in the bay area. The guy can still like he did 10 years ago, but he's on his last legs. Every time he circles the bases, it looks like he's going to blow out his hamstrings. In the outfield, he has poor range to begin with and also gets terrible reads. Alou really needs to go to a league where he doesn't have to field or hit. I think Bonds is more an NL player than Alou at this point in their careers. Alou still might be worth the risk, as long as the Dodgers aren't relying on him to be their big bopper.

2006-11-12 20:42:24
106.   sanchez101
Kemp is more ready (and much, much better) than Jones or M-Esteve, but that wasn't the question.

If Kemp passed the 30-HR and the 100-RBI barrier, the mainstream sportswriters would like him, and the average Dodger fan would also be more than happy for him. You and I, well, we should be a little concerned and a little happy about the performance.

I don't think Kemp is in quite the same boat as Francoeur. For one, his minor league stats are much better, and infinitely better when it comes to plate discipline. Also, and perhaps more importantly, Kemp has proclaimed publically that plate discipline and pitch identification are his biggest problems while Francoeur seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with never taking a walk and sporting .293 OBP.

2006-11-12 20:44:32
107.   sanchez101
105. I was just throwing out B-grade prospects out their for comparison, not advocating that the Dodgers get EME or anyone else. Besides, I'm pretty sure Ethier will factor into the Dodger outfield somewhere, somehow.
2006-11-12 20:47:08
108.   sanchez101
105.101. Just to be clear, I am operating under the assumption that Kemp is the starting CF next year, or perhaps Repko is until Kemp is ready.
2006-11-12 20:55:09
109.   StolenMonkey86
Marcus Thames, anyone?
2006-11-12 20:56:06
110.   Disabled List
85 I wish we had signed Frank Catalanotto a few years back. He's still a good player, but he has even less power than Ethier, and we need some thump in the lineup.

And for all those moaning about their fantasy football teams, I pulled off the bonehead move of the year today. I benched Chad Johnson.

Matt Millen has nothing on me.

2006-11-12 21:17:44
111.   PlayTwo
There just isn't anyone other than Drew to be mad at right now. Usually, Boras gets out front and has the venom directed his way. He didn't do that with Drew.
2006-11-12 21:32:51
112.   GoBears
I really don't care about JD Drew one way or the other, except as a player on the field. He's no longer a Dodger, so I don't really care at all. He's gone. I'm disappointed, but certainly not mad at a guy for exercising a clause in his contract.

The team is worse now than it was a week ago, but the season doesn't start today.

I do care about how Colletti responded (burning the bridge to Drew, who is, after all, one of the very best players on the FA market), and how he responds now to the new OF need. He may still pull a rabbit out of his hat, but my view of the FA market (minus Drew) is that it's unlikely. I hope he surprises me.

2006-11-12 21:33:08
113.   Bob Timmermann
Boras is too busy with all things Matsuzaka. That's a bigger payday.
2006-11-12 21:37:01
114.   Disabled List
I wonder if this conversation took place when Ned found out Drew was opting out:

Ned: I just want to know what you're worth. Over ten million?
Drew: Oh my, yes.
Ned: Why are you doing it? How much better can you eat? What can you buy that you can't already afford?
Drew: The future, Mr. Colletti, the future.

2006-11-12 21:39:11
115.   Uncle Miltie
109- I've suggested going after him in the past. He's a big power threat and might come pretty cheap, especially with the Tigers' recent addition of Sheffield. At worst, he could battle Ethier for playing time.
2006-11-12 21:52:01
116.   Vishal
now i've seen it all. on athletics nation, there is a contingent of A's fans clamoring for the acquisition of... wait for it...

cesar izturis.

that's right, cesar "career .295 OBP" izturis. and A's fans want him in the oakland lineup! incredible.

2006-11-12 22:08:42
117.   StolenMonkey86
116 - I guess they dig that zone rating, and/or think they can fleece the Cubs
2006-11-12 22:09:26
118.   Jon Weisman
Evidence of emotion:

http://tinyurl.com/y32vwb

2006-11-12 22:13:27
119.   D4P
Funny Army-clip from The Simpsons tonight, showing a helicopter blowing up Hitler, Osama, Ja(y)son Voorhees, and a "Deadly Hurricane"
2006-11-12 22:15:02
120.   D4P
118
The caption under said evidence:

J.D. Drew is clearly willing to trade his job security for the chance at a bigger payday

Those really aren't mutually exclusive, are they? I mean, isn't DJ likely to sign a 3-year or greater deal for more than $33 million?

2006-11-12 22:15:08
121.   scareduck
64 - I generally try to stay out of authoritarian countries that feel obliged to beat subservience into others.
2006-11-12 22:15:40
122.   StolenMonkey86
115- I just saw that he didn't have a position on the Tigers depth chart after they got Sheffield. Looking at his career numbers and seeing .075 IsoPatience and 15.7 AB/HR, averaging 2 total bases per hit, I'd love to pick him up as a corner guy.

Then we need a center fielder. That's a question of do we give Matt Kemp a shot.

2006-11-12 22:21:47
123.   Greg Brock
Matt Kemps's bat excites me. His route running, on the other hand, scares me to death.

Again, for no reason, I ask why Andre Ethier can't play center. No need to answer, I just don't get it.

2006-11-12 22:24:50
124.   Jon Weisman
123 - Just from my observation, Ethier's no Garry Maddox himself. I would say that at most, two-thirds of the Earth is covered by water, and Ethier covers only one-ninth.
2006-11-12 22:26:01
125.   StolenMonkey86
Here's another option. What are the odds that spring training is a tryout to see which one of the outfielders gets to play center?
2006-11-12 22:26:57
126.   Vishal
[118] nah, you're misreading it. in that picture, drew is actually in the midst of yawning and stretching ;)
2006-11-12 22:30:02
127.   StolenMonkey86
126 - look at Drew right under his eyes. That would be flatter if he was yawning. I got the ;), but I wanted to say that anyway
2006-11-12 22:33:16
128.   Xeifrank
If college football had a playoff system.
http://tinyurl.com/yjhvzq
vr, Xei
2006-11-12 22:38:21
129.   Vishal
haha, okay. i was 100% joking, though. my opinion: flamboyance and showmanship is all well and good, and i can certainly understand why people find it endearing, but i certainly don't think it's a requisite ingredient of a good (or even great) ballplayer. and a lack of emphatic displays is certainly no reason to dislike someone. i mean, from what i remember, drew always ran through the bag at first base and even if he didn't do much diving or what have you, he certainly wasn't an inattentive lollygagger or anything. so why does he get such a hard time?
2006-11-12 22:40:31
130.   Vishal
[129] hah, 3 certainlys in one paragraph. that's certainly a lot.
2006-11-12 22:45:03
131.   ToyCannon
A platoon of Delucci or Nixon/Thames would be a great replacement for JD. When you take into account JD's pedestrian numbers against LHP and replace them with a LHP masher it can make up for the smaller productivity from the LHH Delucci or Nixon. Plus has everyone forgotten about Magical Marlon:)

One wonders if Ray Durham can play CF ala Davy Lopes.

2006-11-12 22:50:33
132.   natepurcell
last year, thames hit righties significantly better then lefties.

but i do think we should try and acquire thames. Hes not going to hit for a high average but he does have nice ISOs; basically what we hoped jayson werth would have turned into.

2006-11-12 22:53:01
133.   StolenMonkey86
115- who do you offer for Thames?
2006-11-12 22:54:06
134.   StolenMonkey86
131- Kenny Lofton scored on a sac fly to Ray Durham.

so, NOOOOOO! :)

2006-11-12 22:56:18
135.   Xeifrank
If somehow the Dodgers can work Nomar and Loney BOTH into the lineup on a fairly consistent basis then the loss of Drew could be significantly mitigated. Can Loney play a corner OF spot? Can/Will Nomar play 3B? I know there has been some talk about it, but if Nomar doesn't show some positional flexibility, like > 50% of his games not at 1B, then I wouldn't bother signing him.
vr, Xei
2006-11-12 22:56:23
136.   StolenMonkey86
Would anyone offer Jeff Kent and cash considerations for Thames?

The cash considerations would not only offset some of the salary difference, but play for Kent and Sheffield to be teammates.

2006-11-12 22:56:58
137.   natepurcell
133

their choice of hendrickson or tomko :)

or both if they want to drive a hard bargain.

2006-11-12 22:57:44
138.   StolenMonkey86
136 - er, that's pay, not play
2006-11-12 22:58:18
139.   ToyCannon
132
His 3 year split shows a OBP of 306 against RHP. The power is still decent and it could just mean he needs more at bats because he hasn't gotten a whole lot of major league at bats but I'd rather have Delucci getting those at bats against RHP.
2006-11-12 23:00:08
140.   StolenMonkey86
137 - could we do that?
2006-11-12 23:01:33
141.   natepurcell
140

i hope so.

2006-11-12 23:02:33
142.   StolenMonkey86
I don't know if I like that more than the idea of watching Kent and Sheffield fight in the dugout. Tough call really.
2006-11-12 23:05:36
143.   StolenMonkey86
talking about getting Thames for Tomko, chat with Vin Scully on Tuesday. This is gonna be a good week
2006-11-12 23:08:17
144.   Uncle Miltie
133- probably Elmer Dessens/Eric Stults along with a B prospect or two. Thames is almost 30 so he's not going to get much better. I could see him hitting as many as 35 home runs in a full season. I'm not a big Ethier fan, so I'd probably look to deal him for pitching.

136- as much I dislike Kent, I probably wouldn't. Who plays 2nd if Kent is traded? Both Betemit and LaRoche aren't going to be starter.

The big free agent bat I'd go after is Alfonso Soriano. I've never been a fan of Soriano, but now that Drew is gone, the Dodgers desperately need someone to replace his offense. I'd probably just go with Kemp in CF.

Here's my lineup
Martin c
Loney 1b
Kent 2b
Furcal ss
Betemit 3b
Thames lf
Kemp cf
Soriano rf

2006-11-12 23:17:25
145.   StolenMonkey86
144- I'm a little higher on Ethier than you are, but not a bad lineup. I think Kemp needs time in AAA to work on knowing the strike zone, defensive routes, and showing off.

I'd try Nomar at second if Kent is gone, giving him a JD Drew rest schedule, with Marlon Anderson as his primary backup.

Here's the lineup then:
(S)Furcal - SS
(L)Loney - 1B
(R)Nomar - 2B
(R)Sori - RF
(L)Ethier - CF
(R)Thames - LF
(R)Martin - C
(L)Betemit - 3B

Besides, if he'd be cool playing first, that would plug a hole for the Tigers nicely (and block Chris Shelton for a little longer).

2006-11-12 23:18:05
146.   StolenMonkey86
145 - Kent that is, on the he in the last sentence. I need to watch these pronoun references.
2006-11-12 23:35:00
147.   trainwreck
I will miss Drew's production and I am worried we are now going to overspend on Soriano or Lee. I think signing those guys to long term deals could turn out to be very costly. We will really miss Drew I believe next year. I am worried we could tkae a big dip next year, but as long as our young people get a lot of playing time then it would not really bother me.
2006-11-12 23:36:23
148.   StolenMonkey86
Here's the story to sell getting Thames

http://tinyurl.com/yamkfs

2006-11-13 00:08:55
149.   thinkblue0
You do not spout off about using your opt out clause half way through the season and ruin the chemistry within the clubhouse and certainly within the stadium. You lie your posterior off, and then once the season ends you inform your agent of your intentions and take leave of the team.

See, this is my problem...Drew DID spout off by saying numerous times that he wasn't going to do it. I have NO problem with Drew using an opt out clause..it's his right. I DO have a problem when he comes out and says a bunch of times "I don't think I'll do it." etc etc and then the first thing he does is opt out.

I think this is the reason Colletti is so up in arms over this. His reaction leads me to believe that he had a pretty solid view that Drew wouldn't opt out...I don't think he would have flipped out the way he did if it was still up in the air. Aramis Ramirez played his situation right. As far as I know, he didn't say anything either way and the he opted out...that's the way to do it. But please, don't tell the fans, the media, the organization that you're not going to opt out and then go and do just that. I also want it to be known that I have nothing against Drew, I've been on his bandwagon since the day we signed him and I hate to see him go...but so it goes and so it goes....

2006-11-13 00:16:31
150.   regfairfield
I don't think Thames is getting traded. If Dombrowski is as smart as everyone says he is, the suddenly vastly overrated Craig Monroe, he of the career .310 on base percentage, .301 in 2006, is the first guy to go. At this point, Thames slides into left field nicely. Thames is the better player, even if you assume he won't have an isolated power of almost .300 every year.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-11-13 00:26:56
151.   Uncle Miltie
Thames slumped badly in the 2nd half (.199/.278/.432), while Monroe improved in the 2nd half of the season (.265/.321/.511). Monroe is a better defender. Monroe is more "proven" (he's been given more of an opportunity to produce and he has hit some home runs while also posting an awful on base percentage). Don't tell Jim Leyland that Thames is a better player because he'll likely ignore you. He'll bring up Monroe's game winning hits/HRs (there have been quite a few) or his web gems in the outfield. Leyland loves Monroe and I'm pretty sure that Dombrowski values Leyland's opinion.
2006-11-13 00:29:43
152.   Vishal
[149] yeah, i don't understand either why the situation would necessarily call for "[lying] one's posterior off", a diplomatic non-answer such as "i'm not really thinking about it right now; i'm just focused on this season and helping the dodgers win" would suffice. talking about commitments and how much you and your wife like LA and that you don't see yourself leaving when the prospect of getting a few more million will change your tune is, well, disingenuous at best.
2006-11-13 00:32:13
153.   Vishal
...at worst, too, come to think of it.
2006-11-13 00:34:40
154.   thinkblue0
152-

Exactly. That's what irritates me about this. I don't think people have the right to be mad that he opted out since it was his right...but everyone should be annoyed that he constantly insinuated he wouldn't opt out.

We all keep talking about Eithier being our only OF...but really, can we really count on Eithier right now? I like him just as much as the next guy but he tapered off big time this year and we have no idea what he'll do next...I'd go with two OF...let's just hypothetically say Soriano and Alou and let Eithier and Kemp fight it out for CF.

I still wouldn't be shocked at all to see an ESPN headline in the coming weeks that reads something along the lines of "Dodgers' GM Colletti contacts Bonds' agent."

2006-11-13 04:12:35
155.   dan reines
"anticinematic"

Great word for it, Jon. Perfect word. He's anticinematic.

Setting aside the issue of JD Drew's contract and "promise" entirely, it seems to me that this debate is just the latest in a long line of debates that come down to that one thing: cinema. I think it's probably the heart of the Moneyball debate, too.

I think it's fair to say that most baseball fans (read: I) follow baseball to be entertained, right? And that means we want our team to win, but it also means we want them to be heroic, or emotional, or funny, or cool, or scrappy -- i.e., cinematic -- when they do it. How much we value that cinema versus, say, straight-up run production, probably determines where you lie on the Beane vs. Morgan continuum, for example, but I think we'd all like to like the guys we're rooting for.

That's why guys like Gagne and Gibson and Hershiser hold the place they do in Dodgers history, innit? They gave fans incredible performances and incredible cinema, all in one package. Obviously, whatever Drew produces on the field or for the money (again, I'm not interested in furthering that debate), his lack of cinema knocks him down a lot in some fans' eyes.

I guess I fall in the middle somewhere. To me, sports is entertainment, pure and simple. So yeah, I'll admit I never really formed much of an attachment to JD Drew -- I think he's a fine player, but he didn't entertain me much. I don't begrudge him leaving, but I won't miss him much, either.

2006-11-13 06:07:41
156.   Suffering Bruin
I likey Dan's post above. And he did that at, what, 4am? Well played, Mr. Reines, very well played.

As for me, off to school where very, very few of the kids give a rip about baseball. Sad.

2006-11-13 06:36:58
157.   Terry A
101 - Not to be difficult, but this is the first I've heard of these allegations. Do you have a link to something that would confirm these stories are more than urban legend in the Gateway to the West?
2006-11-13 08:32:48
158.   bearlurker
44 Re offering Drew arbitration, I was wondering if Drew's contract contained a clause in which the Dodgers agreed not to offer him arbitration if Drew opted out.

If the Dodgers can offer arbitration to Drew, I sure hope that they do. None of these posts about Drew have made the case for replacing Drew's all-around play without incurring a very expensive deal (Alou and Bonds come closest, IMO, but the D suffers). I do not see any other reason not to offer him arbitration other than Ned's personal animosity, which is not a valid reason.

80 Considering the prices involved, the most attractive free agents to me are Bonds or Alou (not both due to D, and I think we need a very good CF so no resigning of Lofton), and Delucci (a real nice fit for us, I think).

2006-11-13 08:40:24
159.   JoeyP
I dont really think there's a player out there that can replace JD Drew available from this year's free agent class. With that in mind, I hope the Dodgers use the 11 mils from Drew and the other cash they have, to sign as much high end pitching as possible.

The offense is going to take a step back next year regardless. I'd just accept that, and try to build a team with the best pitching as possible.

I wouldnt spend money on any of the mid-level free agents like Alou. I'd rather spend it on high-end difference making pitching.

2006-11-13 08:44:36
160.   JoeyP
I think it's fair to say that most baseball fans (read: I) follow baseball to be entertained, right?

To some, just having recognizable names like Nomar and going to the ballpark every so often, is enough fufillment.

Others dont care about the individual pieces, but rather just the team overall winnings.

I fall into the 2nd group, but I understand the one's from the 1st group.

2006-11-13 09:13:25
161.   Johnson
158 I can't imagine why Boras or Drew would want to insert a clause stating that we could not offer Drew arbitration if he opted out. It doesn't really seem that it could hurt Drew at all if we did. He doesn't have to accept, and, let's be realistic, it doesn't seem like many teams are too gunshy about picking up type A free agents who have been offered arbitration. So if Boras/Drew don't have any incentive to put that in, why would DePodesta? It could only hurt the Dodgers.
2006-11-13 09:16:08
162.   50 years a Dodger Fan
Where's Ned? I got the solution for him right here.... Sign Nomar ($25M over 3 years, even give him the Drew opt-out option if he wants it) to play First, Second, or Third, as we need. Third base is Nomar and Betemitt. If LaRoche takes the position away from him, that's OK too. First is Nomar and Loney. Right Field is Loney and Kemp. Kemp also gets time in center with....Dave Roberts! Actually I'd rather trade into Eric Byrnes but Roberts is available and relatively cheap. I think Loney and Kemp will exceed Drew's numbers last year (maybe by a good margin), Nomar and Betemitt should manage 35 HRs between them, and Kent should have more HRs than last year. Martin and Ethier are weight training this winter so maybe a few more dingers from them. And I'd really like to re-acquire Dave Ross as backup catcher. Almost all of the above could be done on the $11M that was slated for Drew so the only thing we need pursue with our FA Warchest is pitching.

Infielders: Nomar, Kent, Furcal, Betemitt, Martinez, Saenz, 1/2 Loney

Outfielders: Ethier, (Roberts or Byrnes), Kemp, (Anderson or Repko. I say Repko), 1/2 Loney

2006-11-13 09:26:46
163.   blue22
162 - I think Loney and Kemp will exceed Drew's numbers last year

Maybe hit more homers, but overall they don't come close to what JD did. If your plan is contingent on this, I think you may be disappointed.

2006-11-13 09:29:42
164.   dan reines
160.

By the way, I should be clear (in case I wasn't) that I don't think there are "cinema" guys and "stats" guys, not in the fat part of the bell curve, anyway. We all like to be entertained. My point is just that different people are entertained by different things.

Some people like action films, and some people like thought-provoking dramas. And when someone comes up with a really good thought-provoking action film, it's usually a hit.

Or something like that. (Jon, have I swerved off onto your other blog?)

2006-11-13 09:55:10
165.   Bob Timmermann
I have my doubts that it's legal under the CBA to sign a contract forfeiting your arbitration rights. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to have such a clause.
2006-11-13 09:56:33
166.   GoBears
Exactly. That's what irritates me about this. I don't think people have the right to be mad that he opted out since it was his right...but everyone should be annoyed that he constantly insinuated he wouldn't opt out.

See, I don't get this. Drew was not a family member promising us a kidney. Or even a ride to the airport. He's an athlete, paid to perform on the field. I have no problem understanding why some think he was overpaid, given the games he missed, and/or that the team is lucky to be out from under the $33M due him, due to his high propensity for more injury. But I don't get the "you promised us, you big liar" complaint. What he "promised" was a .900 OPS and great defense and baserunning when healthy, and to stay out of trouble off the field, and but for the broken bone, he delivered.

For me, it comes down to this. What if that had just been a 2-yr deal, with no option, and he were a free agent now? Should the team try to re-sign him? Given the team's needs and his ability, I think yes, although I would be sympathetic to arguments that he's gonna be too expensive in this market. The team should try, but maybe not win.

Colletti, OTOH, at least in public, slammed the door because of the "liar, liar, pants on fire" view of things, which just seems like a dumb thing to focus on for a GM (we fans can focus on anything we want - it doesn't matter).

That said, although it's belied by the ferocity and immediacy of Colletti's reaction (which smacks of sincerity, if not good judgment), I'm starting to think that maybe what Colletti had other reasons to be rid of Drew, and just made it easier for himself, and the fans, to bid good riddance by demonizing the former player. Teams do this all the time. That garbage about "players who want to play here" was not invented by Colletti - it's a common divorce pronouncement.

The stuff about too much coddling may be post-bridge-burning spin, or it might be a real reason that the team didn't want to shell out and extra $33M, let alone what Drew is actually going to cost as a free agent.

If I can be convinced that Colletti had already decided to dump Drew (by trade, if necessary), then his comments of the other day don't bug me nearly as much - they're just break-up words. But I don't really believe that. What I really believe is that Colletti made a bet that Drew would be part of the rebuilding (as with the example of Josh in "The Office" that someone brought up a couple days ago) that he was annoyed and embarrassed for losing that bet, and that he lashed out when a reporter poked him in the eye with it.

2006-11-13 09:56:56
167.   GoBears
Oh jeez, sorry. That was way too long for a comment.
2006-11-13 09:58:50
168.   bearlurker
162 That would result in an unproven, potentially weak lineup. Roberts actually appears to be attracting a lot of interest as he comes off one of his better years and surely will be overpaid.

Byrnes is a pretty bad CF, IMO. We need someone to play CF, preferably a defensive upgrade, given the erratic play there last year and the absence of Drew, and someone to replace JD's production on offense. I hope we address these two needs before chasing Schmidt or Zito.

2006-11-13 10:05:19
169.   bearlurker
165 You are probably right. I thought that I remembered reading once where a team agreed not to offer arbitration so that the player would be more attractive as a free agent because draft picks would not have to be offered.
2006-11-13 10:10:24
170.   blue22
168 - I think a CFer will have to come in trade. Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, or Carl Crawford (debatable as to his being labeled a "CFer") are the biggest names. Overpaid, mediocre names after that (Torii Hunter, Mark Kotsay). Ryan Church continues to be an intriguing name.

The FA names are pretty limited to Matthews Jr, Pierre, Lofton, and Roberts. And that guy Drew.

2006-11-13 10:25:31
171.   JoeyP
I wouldnt get too caught up in what sports figures say in the media.

"I'm not trying to trade Shawn Green"

or

"Izturis is going to be our 3rd basemen"

or

"I'm not going to opt out"

Whatever people say to reporters is meaningless imo.

2006-11-13 10:36:21
172.   ToyCannon
From Rotowire:
*11/13/2006
Giles might be traded this offseason, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune. The Padres are expected to sign a major free agent outfielder, which would make Giles more expendable. Several teams could take a chance on Giles in the hope that his offensive production would improve out of Petco Park. He also could be trade bait for a club looking to move a big contract. Giles is due to make $9 million in 2007 and $12 million in 2008, but could be acquired in return for an even bigger contract. He has a no-trade clause which includes eight teams, Boston, Baltimore, Detroit and Washington among them.*

So just to speculate. The Padre's traded their 2nd baseman to the Indians and now have a hole there. An interesting move would be for the the Dodgers to trade Kent for Giles thus fullfilling the big contract for big contract while each team fills a gaping hole, Padres sign Drew to replace Giles because Depo will go hard after him and the Dodgers sign Durham or Nomar to replace Kent. Depo seems to be showing his influence as they recently signed Ryan Ketchner who was a minor league free agent. One of his 1st moves as the Dodger GM was to trade for Ketchner from Seattle. We know how hard Ned went after Giles last winter so he might be interested. I'm probably the biggest Durham fan on this board which is why I keep trying to find a way to get him on my team. Course to me the obvious move is for the Padres to sign Durham or Nomar to play 2nd base and keep Giles. If the Dodgers trade Kent and sign Durham it would be the same cycle that Sabean/Ned did when Kent left as a FA for Houston and the Giants signed Durham to replace him. I'd much rather have a combo of Durham/Giles then Kent/Drew but that is strictly a personal preference.

2006-11-13 10:54:15
173.   GoBears
155 Very well put, Dan.

172 Not a bad idea, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a Dodgers-Padres trade.

2006-11-13 11:02:21
174.   bearlurker
Brian Giles has hardly any power at all. Durham's defense is horrible (yes, it is worse than Kent's). I'd much rather have Kent/Drew than Durham/Giles.
2006-11-13 11:19:53
175.   bigcpa
I'd much rather have Kent/Drew than Durham/Giles

Me too but the choice could be Durham/Giles or Kent/Marlon Anderson.

I sense Colletti will bid against the Angels for Gary Matthews Jr. If we can make a trade for a big bat (Burrell/Dunn) then I can live with a Ethier/Werth platoon. Apparently the GM's are bowling today in Florida. If Ned and Gillick are on the same team maybe they can work a deal.

2006-11-13 11:30:24
176.   Greg Brock
I would much rather have The Mustache talking to Larry Beinfest or Wayne Krivsky.
2006-11-13 11:35:28
177.   bigcpa
I understand Beinfest is on Jocketty and Epstein's team called "We Got Rings." Colletti did get paired up with Krivsky on the "Don't call us Asst GM's" squad. Not surprisingly Dan Duquette is captain of the "Holy Rollers."
2006-11-13 11:39:06
178.   ToyCannon
174
His power is diminishing but the fact is that he was just horrible against LHP in 2006 which brought his overall numbers down.

I'm sure studies have been done but it seems that power LHH's seem to lose it quickly against LHP but can continue to pound RHP long enough to still be productive players as long as their managers realize that they are a detriment if they ever see LHP. I'm always still shocked when I see the LH splits at the end of every year when I see so many at bats given away to LHH who are clueless against LHP. Didn't anyone learn anything from Earl Weaver and Casey Stengel?I blame part of the problem on the silly 11 and 12 man pitching staffs because of the crazy ways closers are used in todays baseball and so many pitchers who can only go 5/6 innings every 5th day.

2006-11-13 11:41:58
179.   bigcpa
177 I messed up my joke... it's Dan O'Dowd who's the captain of the Holy Rollers.
2006-11-13 12:21:08
180.   StolenMonkey86
176 - why not talk to Krivsky? He might get Dunn for Beimel.
2006-11-13 12:21:45
181.   StolenMonkey86
180 - never mind, I am aware that or does not mean than
2006-11-13 12:30:38
182.   paranoidandroid
Any chance at all to resign Drew?

Seems to me the best replacement for Drew would be Drew. Ramirez (A of the Cubs) resigned with his team for more $ and a few more years, wouldn't that be a legitimate move for the Dodgers?

I know we wish Drew handled it differently, but we can forgive the miscommunication and resign him. We forgave Odalis and it didn't work out, but I never thought he'd be back after 04.

Sign Drew!!!!!

2006-11-13 12:30:47
183.   underdog
Speaking of Ethier, he finished with 4 points in the NL Rookie of the Year balloting, just announced. The Marlins' Ramirez won it in a (not surprisingly) very tight race.

http://tinyurl.com/ym44sl

Saito and Martin finished 8th and 9th. Personally, I think Martin got the shaft. I'd have had him near the top, certainly in value to a team.

2006-11-13 12:34:43
184.   bigcpa
Now Gammons is reporting Matsuzaka to Boston for $42M

http://tinyurl.com/ycpk5h

2006-11-13 12:36:29
185.   Sam DC
Hey LAT, if you see this, would you shoot me an email on a non-Dodger matter.

Sam DOT Brodsok AT Comcast DOT net

2006-11-13 12:36:48
186.   D4P
Anyone watch The Simpsons last night? I laughed more than I have in quite some time. The spy chopper chasing Homer made me LOL...
2006-11-13 12:39:16
187.   underdog
184 Why does all news about him remind me of that Simpsons episode with Mr. Sparkle?

"Oh, hello, American investor. I see you are interested in distributing Mr. Sparkle in you home prefecture. You have chosen wisely. But please -- don't believe me. Observe this commercial."

"Mr. Sparkle. A joint venture of Matsumura Fishworks and Tamaribuchi Heavy Manufacturing Concern."

Matsuzaka, a joint venture of Seibu Lions and Scott Boras Concern.

2006-11-13 12:40:16
188.   D4P
186
I laughed more than I have in quite some time

At The Simpsons, that is.

2006-11-13 12:40:43
189.   underdog
Weird, two unrelated Simpsons mentions simultaneously!

And yes, did see it last night, hilarious. The first half in particular. That assembly in the elementary school was priceless - they really nailed the absurdity of the recruiting ads. (The Looney Tunes gag later in the episode was a little goofy, though.)

2006-11-13 12:49:04
190.   bigcpa
177 was also a Simpsons ref.
2006-11-13 13:02:09
191.   Jon Weisman
Chips update: I left a few crumbs in my bag of Stacy's all-natural Parmesan Garlic & Herb baked pita chips.
2006-11-13 13:17:34
192.   D4P
189
I liked the Looney Tunes gag. I also liked bombing the "Dangerous Hurricane." Classic.
2006-11-13 13:28:20
193.   underdog
That was classic.

The LT gag I may like more the second time around; it just seemed overlong. But that was one of the better episodes in awhile.

2006-11-13 13:33:47
194.   twerp
184 "That's to his credit and a lot of people's concern."—Chiba Lotte Marines manager Bobby Valentine about Daisuke Matsuzaka throwing 18 complete games this season, including an 11-inning game in which he threw more than 150 pitches.

--Phil Rogers, Sour Sweeteners, Chicago Tribune, 11/12

Questions: when did pitch count get to be a near-sacred thing? Is there conclusive proof that limiting starters to 100 pitches or so extends careers or makes them more effective?

Seems like a lot of pitchers used to throw a lot of CG and IP and still have fine careers. Not looking to argue--I'd just like to know.

From same column RE free agents:

"Drew is a Scott Boras client, and Boras clients are rarely among the first wave of free agents to make commitments."

2006-11-13 13:46:19
195.   gpellamjr
186 "that large helicopter in the distance..." or whatever it was, haha. It was funnier than it's been. My favorite was Lenny: "The pain feels so real..."
2006-11-13 13:47:48
196.   dkminnick
194 - "..when did pitch count get to be a near-sacred thing? Is there conclusive proof that limiting starters to 100 pitches or so extends careers or makes them more effective?

Seems like a lot of pitchers used to throw a lot of CG and IP and still have fine careers. Not looking to argue--I'd just like to know."

Me, too. Is there any statistical evidence for pitch count reducing injuries or prolonging careers?

I know there is such evidence for a pitcher's effectiveness after a number of pitches within a particular game, but what about the long-term? (I'm also just curious, not arguing). Thx!

2006-11-13 13:49:41
197.   underdog
Btw, I'd like to extend my (middle finger in) hearty thanks to the York family for screwing over San Francisco's bid for the summer Olympics. Well done! The stadium deal 180 was nicely timed.

http://tinyurl.com/tuhs8

Sigh.

2006-11-13 13:50:44
198.   gibsonhobbs88
182 - I'm afraid the "horse has left that barn" already with the comments Ned made.
I personally had no axe to grind regarding JD and have neutral feelings regarding our GM. I'm only distraught right now because our overall team is weaker with an extra hole to fill as far as offensive production. Though they still have to focus on getting at least one more front of the rotation starter, they now have to scramble to fill an extra OF hole. The suggestion for Alou is bad unless he agrees to a platoon role for left not right field. The bottom line is that Ned has got his work cut out for him this winter.
2006-11-13 13:52:13
199.   Linkmeister
194, 196 Re: pitch count

I suspect as sports medicine has improved, the understanding of wear and tear on a pitcher's arm has improved, and given the amount of money paid to players these days there's a lot more focus on the players' health than there used to be.

I wonder if Koufax would have spent half of his last two years on the DL if he'd pitched 40 years later.

2006-11-13 13:53:04
200.   3upn3down
Here is my prediction for the '07 Opening Day Roster:

Lineup:
Furcal SS
Pierre CF
Nomar 3B
C. Lee LF
Kent 2B
Loney 1B
Ethier RF
Martin C

(Martin and Pierre are interchangeable in the lineup)

Bench:
Saenz
Betemit
Martinez
Kemp
Repko
Backup Catcher (not Piazza or T. Hall)

Rotation:
Lowe
Penny
Maddux
Billingsley
Kou

Pen:
Saito CL
Broxton
Miller
Tomko
Weathers
Hendrickson

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-11-13 13:54:44
201.   D4P
"The pain feels so real..."

It is real...

(Martin and Pierre are interchangeable in the lineup)

Don't know what to say.

2006-11-13 13:59:19
202.   gibsonhobbs88
We may have to get Nomar back so Grady can have some flexibility in his lineup where Nomar can get time in at first or third, platooning with Loney and/or Betemit, Kent can get some days off when needed with Marlon Anderson filling in. I guess if he dips into the FA pool or trades, obtaining Matthews JR, Burrell or Lee can fill our needs in either LF or CF but I'm not really knocked out on my feet by the thought of acquiring those mentioned above due to $ expended and our rate of return and what we give up in return. In all honesty, my expectations for 2007 have taken a downturn pending future moves in the Hot Stove league, of course.
2006-11-13 14:02:55
203.   natepurcell
i hope drew signs with the red sox. that would bode well for our compensation package.
2006-11-13 14:04:18
204.   D4P
203
Do teams still get draft picks for losing free agents...?
2006-11-13 14:05:11
205.   Sam DC
I think we need to take stock of the fact that Jon turns out to be this crazy guy who eats a different kind of exotic chip with his lunch each day. (And I'm letting pita products slip in as "chips" just barely.)

Me, it goes like this. Eat Turkey Sandwich, Salt & Vinegar chips. Drink Diet Coke. Wait 23 and a half hours. Repeat.

2006-11-13 14:05:36
206.   blue22
202 - If Nomar is going to be a super-utility guy, I think I'd prefer Richie Aurilia at a fraction of the cost. He's a better defender at any of the 4 infield positions.
2006-11-13 14:06:01
207.   natepurcell
Do teams still get draft picks for losing free agents...?

No, i just say that so i can live in my own fantasy world.

2006-11-13 14:06:52
208.   Sam DC
Even if the free agent is Torii Hunter?
2006-11-13 14:07:16
209.   twerp
"In August, as Drew repeatedly told reporters he would return to the Dodgers, Boras talked privately of how he could see Drew playing center field for the Angels."

--Bill Shaikin, LA Times, 11/12, "Angels look to dive right in"

"Drew's opt-out clause was negotiated by Colletti's predecessor Paul DePodesta, but it's merely part of the price of doing business. It's good to see Colletti isn't letting it affect his other dealings, though. One day after making his decision on Drew, Colletti was talking to Boras about Greg Maddux and Gagne."

--Jon Heyman, SI.com, 11/12

Dealing with Boras is a necessary evil if a team is going to pursue his clients.

If I were Colletti--or any other GM--after the Drew fiasco, I'd expect the worst.

Expect not to take anything Boras clients say at face value. Expect bad faith in negotiations. Expect that he will find ways to top his previous most outrageous act, tho hopefully not dealing with you. Expect that at actual decision time, nothing really will matter except money.

Then you can be pleasantly surprised if anything beter happens.You'll get a better grade in Borasdealing 101. And you'll be respresenting your team's interests more realistically.

Is Boras worse than other agents? I don't know. There's no question that he's good at what he does, bringing home the $$$. That's why players hire him

After all, snakes also have their purpose in nature.

2006-11-13 14:09:06
210.   blue22
204 - All kidding aside, yes they still do. The level of compensation for the types has been reduced though. Type-A's get a 1st round and a sandwich pick. Type-B's get just the sandwich pick. Type-C's get nada.
2006-11-13 14:13:58
211.   Jon Weisman
Gurnick has a pretty even-handed discussion of the Drew incident, as well as Garciaparra and Ned Colletti's trade record, at the new Dodgers.com mailbag.
2006-11-13 14:17:07
212.   Jon Weisman
205 - LOL. There happens to be a wide chip selection near my office. But actually, my overall lunch options are very limited.
2006-11-13 14:19:41
213.   Greg Brock
Sam is a man with outstanding taste in lunch selections.
2006-11-13 14:20:08
214.   Steve
Don't know what to say.

Shotgun!

2006-11-13 14:27:28
215.   D4P
I'm off to see my first career Duke men's basketball game tonight. The Blue Devils take on the (insert mascot name) of Georgia-Southern. Should be a barn-burner...
2006-11-13 14:37:38
216.   underdog
I just let the chips fall where they may. {duck}

No, my office will order chip assortments from CostCo but the only ones I can stomach (because of all the crap in the others, Doritos and the like, is Fritos. Sometimes I'll go out and buy SunChips or Salt and Vinegar chips. But then I'm lucky to work somewhere near a lot of great cheap food places, in downtown SF.

2006-11-13 14:49:10
217.   Jon Weisman
I miss eating mainstream chips on a regular basis. I keep trying to outsmart the evil cholesterol and trans-fat demons, with limited success.
2006-11-13 14:54:45
218.   bigcpa
Did anyone catch Ken Gurnick's chip reference in the mailbag? An obvious tip of the hat to Jon.
2006-11-13 14:55:49
219.   Bob Timmermann
Georgia Southern Eagles.

They play in the Southern Conference.

2006-11-13 14:57:58
220.   trainwreck
I would cry if we signed Juan Pierre.
2006-11-13 14:59:35
221.   Sam DC
Nats owner and Team President Stan Kasten held an online chat today at the Post, in which he acknowledged reading team blogs.
2006-11-13 15:00:21
222.   3upn3down
GA Southern, home of the first Adrian Peterson. Uber I-AA RB who is still with the Bears.
2006-11-13 15:01:05
223.   3upn3down
220. You're right, but it is nothing a little Kenny Lofton wouldn't cure.
2006-11-13 15:06:40
224.   Sam DC
So, I'll leave it to you all to imagine the way my apparently disturbed mind misread this headline from dodgers.com: "Dodgers to host adult baseball camp."

Icaros, you out there?

2006-11-13 15:08:26
225.   3upn3down
224 Jenna Jamison at catcher! Get it? Catcher!
2006-11-13 15:10:30
226.   trainwreck
224
If only.
2006-11-13 15:15:32
227.   Marty
I can still only post from work since my personal internets tube is still down.

I'm very similar to Sam for lunch when I'm at work. Chicken salad snadwich on squaw bread please, with Lay's plain chips.

2006-11-13 15:17:52
228.   Marty
snadwich...like snausages, only better!
2006-11-13 15:18:21
229.   Greg Brock
Okay, this might be the coolest (and sweetest) thing I've ever seen on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUx5FdySs&eurl=

2006-11-13 15:23:05
230.   trainwreck
229
Thankfully they did not use that R Kelly song.
2006-11-13 15:41:35
231.   Sam DC
229: I was sure it was going to be that disturbing dancing star manchild.
2006-11-13 15:43:01
232.   Greg Brock
231 I do not know of which you speak...

Nor do I think I want to.

2006-11-13 15:49:55
233.   Sam DC
Well, here it is. http://tinyurl.com/yk6new

It's very strange, but the forwarding email I got a few months ago said it was quite the YouTube phenom at the time.

And I'll apologize right now to Jon.

2006-11-13 15:56:31
234.   trainwreck
That is Little Superstar and there are a few scenes from that film on youtube that are hilarious. I am part Indian so everyone sent me that link. Those crazy Tamils.
2006-11-13 15:57:07
235.   Greg Brock
233 Yeah, I'll go ahead and say that Kiwi wins in the "heartwarming" department, and little Indian kid wins in the "Haunting my dreams for the rest of my life" department.
2006-11-13 15:59:02
236.   Sam DC
Well, I see my work here is done.
2006-11-13 15:59:41
237.   trainwreck
He is a midget or little person, not a child. In fact in that video he is saying he is old and he demands he gets to smoke.
2006-11-13 16:01:44
238.   Greg Brock
Dude, "midget" is not the preferred nomenclature...Little Person, Dude.
2006-11-13 16:03:50
239.   trainwreck
The midget is not the issue here.
2006-11-13 16:04:32
240.   trainwreck
He's not a guy from the Wizard of OZ.
2006-11-13 16:05:35
241.   Greg Brock
trainwreck, you're out of your element.
2006-11-13 16:07:40
242.   trainwreck
I Am the Walrus.
2006-11-13 16:09:44
243.   Greg Brock
Say what you want about the tenets of Hinduism, at least it's an ethos.
2006-11-13 16:11:45
244.   trainwreck
I did not know that.
2006-11-13 16:15:19
245.   Greg Brock
Do you see what happens, trainwreck?

Do you see what happens?

2006-11-13 16:18:42
246.   trainwreck
Who's got your undies Greg?
2006-11-13 16:23:07
247.   Greg Brock
And Jon says "Will you two kids knock it off!" in 5..4...3...2...1.
2006-11-13 16:25:14
248.   trainwreck
I want some In N Out now.

I bet JD Drew will miss In N Out more than anything.

2006-11-13 16:28:00
249.   Vishal
it's cute until you realize where the kiwi is headed. then it's just sad.
2006-11-13 16:28:28
250.   Greg Brock
249 No spoilers!
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-11-13 16:30:08
251.   trainwreck
249
Still better than New Zealand.
2006-11-13 16:33:53
252.   trainwreck
I am just kidding you crazy kiwis.
2006-11-13 16:34:35
253.   Vishal
[243] we believes in nuh-sink!
2006-11-13 16:36:58
254.   twerp
199 "I wonder if Koufax would have spent half of his last two years on the DL if he'd pitched 40 years later."

Once again, not looking to argue. But Koufax's last 2 years show 335 and 323 IP, respectively--so if he was on the DL half the time, he was even more amazing than generally thought! o-)

Amazing stats over those 2 years, anyhow...along with 27 CG of 41 starts each year, ERAs of 2.04 and 1.73(career lowest, in his last year!)records of 26-8 and 27-9, 8 and 5 shutouts, and 382 SO in 335 IP followed by 317 SO in 323 IP.

Granted, that load probably didn't do his arthritic left arm any good. But could pitch limits have helped slow arthritis? Could anything?

About when did 5 man rotations become accepted?

2006-11-13 16:37:20
255.   Greg Brock
His name's Lebowski? That's your name, Dude!
2006-11-13 16:42:03
256.   Vishal
it really tied the room together.
2006-11-13 16:44:10
257.   trainwreck
I am rooting for the Angels to sign two players away from us in Soriano and Matthews.
2006-11-13 16:44:42
258.   trainwreck
Preventing us from signing two players I guess makes more sense.
2006-11-13 16:45:08
259.   Greg Brock
Some of the comments in the Kiwi video are some of the laugh out loud funniest things I've ever read.
2006-11-13 17:29:03
260.   Linkmeister
Hey, marty, if you're still reading, the Columbia Journalism Review blog has an interview with Harry Weinstein about the Times business troubles here:

http://tinyurl.com/ygs84n

2006-11-13 17:30:23
261.   Linkmeister
254 The point I was trying to make was "had they known then what they know now about pitchers' arms, would they have sat him down or put him on the DL when they knew his arm was killing him."
2006-11-13 17:35:52
262.   EJM
What would you guys think about giving Mulder a small but incentive laden deal?

Granted he won't be much next year, considering he's not likely to be back until the middle of the year coming off shoulder surgery...but if he could return to his old self in 2008, he could be a steal.

2006-11-13 17:40:59
263.   Greg Brock
I would love to grab Mulder, though I'm sure many, many clubs are thinking the same thing. He'll probably end up with a bigger deal than you think he will.
2006-11-13 17:53:14
264.   thinkblue0
What would you guys think about giving Mulder a small but incentive laden deal?

I love it. Low risk high reward type situation.

Granted he won't be much next year, considering he's not likely to be back until the middle of the year coming off shoulder surgery.

I've read numerous reports that said he'd be ready to roll by Opening Day.

If we can land a Schmidt/Zito and also bring in a Mark Mulder it would be really really nice.

2006-11-13 17:55:41
265.   EJM
Huh, and all along I thought I was a genius for coming up with such a great plan that no one else would have thought of.

I guess the following plan I had for the offseason may not be such a good idea after all.
1. Quit day job
2. Get a job with Dodger organization
3. Sign Juan Pierre
4. Bask in the glory

2006-11-13 17:57:07
266.   natepurcell
is it too early to start banging my annual "acquire Lastings Milledge" wardrum?
2006-11-13 17:58:08
267.   Greg Brock
265
Hey, always follow your dreams.

A Kiwi taught me that.

2006-11-13 17:59:22
268.   Greg Brock
266 I've followed Milledge since a year before he was drafted, and I DO NOT want Lastings Milledge. It's not just the makeup issue...I think he's Shannon Stewart, at best.
2006-11-13 18:03:53
269.   natepurcell
i dont think shannon stewart is what he will become. more like it is his floor.
2006-11-13 18:05:22
270.   EJM
266
Personally, I think the name in itself is reason enough to sign the guy...Which is why I think the Dodgers should go after Dick Trickle of Nascar fame.
2006-11-13 18:08:02
271.   Greg Brock
269 You know, small sample size and all, but I watched almost every game he played in the majors this year, and I just don't think he is what people think he is. Most Met fans I know (and it's quite a few) want him dealt before he gets exposed.

But hey, he could be the second coming of Kirby Puckett...But I think Shannon Stewart is his comparable.

2006-11-13 18:08:13
272.   Vishal
*3. Sign Juan Pierre
4. Bask in the glory*

oh, the incongruity of it all.

[268] it seems like when we compare players, we have a tendency to compare people to a player of the same race. why can't lastings be, say... mark kotsay, at best?

2006-11-13 18:09:02
273.   regfairfield
266 Only if I can start my acquire Aaron Heilman campaign along side it.
2006-11-13 18:10:23
274.   Greg Brock
272 If raised the same point. What I'm saying is "Corner outfielder who doesn't hit enough homers, doesn't walk enough, but is very toolsy."

Come up whomever you wish. I think Shannon Stewart applies.

2006-11-13 18:11:02
275.   natepurcell
it seems like when we compare players, we have a tendency to compare people to a player of the same race. why can't lastings be, say... mark kotsay, at best?

Milledge= chin fen chen.

its a mirror image.

2006-11-13 18:11:30
276.   Greg Brock
274 I meant I've, not If.

Anyhoo, it's ironic, because I raised the exact same racial comparison issue before. I can use Ruben Mateo or Juan Rivera if you'd like.

2006-11-13 18:11:37
277.   trainwreck
Mulder's body is deteriorating badly, that is why Beane jumped at the chance to trade him in a good deal. I want nothing to do with Mulder and he is not going to come cheap anyways.
2006-11-13 18:12:57
278.   trainwreck
Im on both bandwagons for Milledge and Heilman.
2006-11-13 18:14:14
279.   natepurcell
274

he only played corner of because of beltran in center. and he dismissed the not walking criticism by taking 43bbs in 307ABs in AAA this season at the old age of 21.

i like his tools and his lightening quick bat. I like the high averages hes sustained at mostly every minor league level hes been at. I also think hes the type of player that ages well.

buttttt.....

lowe+kent for milledge, heilman and i want dirty sanchez back.

2006-11-13 18:14:57
280.   Greg Brock
Heilman would be nice. I think a lot of people are tied to the notion that Heilman and Milledge are tethered together in any deal. I'm sure we could get Heilman. Of course, getting Pelfrey or Humber would be nice too!
2006-11-13 18:16:48
281.   Greg Brock
279

He was a nightmare in the outfield this year. Yes, he's a CF, which is why I said he could be Kirby Puckett, but wow, he sure made Kenny Lofton look like Willie Mays out there this year.

2006-11-13 18:17:09
282.   trainwreck
I wonder how much we would have to give up to get Pelfrey? Probably too much.
2006-11-13 18:17:11
283.   natepurcell
280

humber i wouldnt touch. he went to rice and thats like the dusty baker college of ruining pitchers arms.

2006-11-13 18:18:12
284.   Greg Brock
283 Yes, that's true. Rice does kill the arms.
2006-11-13 18:18:21
285.   natepurcell
281

yea he was pretty bad. but just like offensively, there is an adjustment period for young players on the defensive side. Hes always had good defensive scouting reports coming up.

2006-11-13 18:18:22
286.   Vishal
[275] yeah, but the image is irrelevant. when we're talking about a player, we're talking about the skill set.

anyway, greg, i wasn't giving you a hard time for using shannon stewart, who seems to be a perfect exemplar of the "toolsy but undistinguished corner OF" type you were trying to point to. if it's appropriate, it's appropriate.

i got another good one though!
juan (charley-steiner-says-it) encahnarcion.

2006-11-13 18:19:24
287.   Greg Brock
286 Great Minds! I was going to use Encunarcion as well!
2006-11-13 18:20:11
288.   natepurcell
so when are we going to get the first big free agent signing of the offseason? aramis doesnt count, he didnt change teams.
2006-11-13 18:21:56
289.   Greg Brock
288 Soriano to the Angels?
To me it's a matter of when, not if...

The Angels, swinging at warmup pitches from the on-deck circle since 2001!

2006-11-13 18:21:59
290.   trainwreck
Kemp and Milledge had similar years. Both started out gangbusters then stopped getting so many fastballs and then they could no longer hit. Both also had problems judging balls in the outfield.
2006-11-13 18:22:57
291.   Greg Brock
Between the swinging at pitchouts and running into fifteen outs per game, Soriano and the Angels seem like a match made in heaven.
2006-11-13 18:24:18
292.   trainwreck
Plus Soriano and Vlad are the masters at plate coverage and being offended if they get walked.
2006-11-13 18:26:00
293.   natepurcell
289

The angels would be better off going for drew. Better yet, giving gary matthews a 4yr 40mil deal.

that wold be swell.

thinking about it, giants, padres, angels, red sox, orioles, cubs, and even astros are all going to be interested in drew. the paydays going ot be something like 5yrs 65 million.

2006-11-13 18:28:42
294.   trainwreck
292
Hopefully those teams go after Nomar as well.
2006-11-13 18:30:06
295.   Vishal
don't the angels need a 2nd baseman? i would LOVE to see soriano back in the infield for LAAAAAA. plus, it would put arte another step towards possibly fielding an all-latino lineup.

3B maicer izturis
SS orlando cabrera
2b soriano
1b kendry morales
LF juan rivera
RF vlad
cf chone figgins (okay, not latino, but pretty close! i mean, chones are underwear in spanish, no?)
c napoli first string, sure, but do they still have jose molina?

2006-11-13 18:30:52
296.   natepurcell
don't the angels need a 2nd baseman?

Kendrick.

2006-11-13 18:31:46
297.   Vishal
crap, i forgot the DH, too. maybe they can sign nomar and kendry can DH. perfecto!
2006-11-13 18:31:58
298.   trainwreck
lol Vishal you seem to have forgotten Howie Kendrick.
2006-11-13 18:32:51
299.   trainwreck
I also do not think they have completely given up on McPherson, until Wood comes up that is.
2006-11-13 18:34:06
300.   trainwreck
They also have Eric Aybar at ss. We should get a young infielder from the Angels, they have so many.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-11-13 18:34:53
301.   Vishal
[296] d'oh!

well, i also left out garret anderson and a couple others, but it doesn't have to be an every day lineup. just once would be good enough.

2006-11-13 18:35:09
302.   Greg Brock
No way Drew fits into the Angels'sss'ss plans. I mean, come on, the guy walks and stuff. Plus, he doesn't do a good job of bunting straight back to the catcher.
2006-11-13 18:36:23
303.   trainwreck
He also lacks in the scrappyness factor.
2006-11-13 18:38:30
304.   trainwreck
They much rather sign Gary Matthews who has vastly overrated tools and has had one good season and it happened to be his contract season.
2006-11-13 18:39:07
305.   Vishal
drew is the anti-erstie.
2006-11-13 18:54:04
306.   trainwreck
What happens if the Red Sox sign both Drew and Lugo?
2006-11-13 18:54:22
307.   trainwreck
In terms of draft pick compensation.
2006-11-13 18:55:44
308.   Vishal
speaking of whom, isn't erstad a free agent?? i can't think of a team that would likely sign him.
2006-11-13 18:57:08
309.   trainwreck
308
The Pirates.
2006-11-13 18:57:36
310.   D4P
Just back from the Duke game. Some highlights:

1. Early in the first half, Georgia Southern had the ball with roughly 8 seconds on the shot clock. The Cameron Crazies started a fake countdown at 4 and convinced the ballhandler to hoist up a desperate long-range shot with 4 seconds on the clock, not 0 seconds as he was led to believe

2. Georgia Southern has a player named "Jimmy Tobias"

3. The guys that run out on the court to wipe up the sweat wear suits and ties

4. The Crazies gave a few "Go to Hell Carolina, Go to Hell" chants, despite the fact that Duke was playing Georgia Southern

5. Duke fans complained about the refs the entire first half, despite the fact that Duke led in free-throw attempts 25-6 at the end of the half

2006-11-13 18:58:50
311.   trainwreck
I hate Duke.

That must have been a cool experience D4P.

2006-11-13 19:00:44
312.   Vishal
man, i hate duke so much.
2006-11-13 19:05:30
313.   D4P
It was a lot of fun. I was surprised that the stadium wasn't full. I would guess it was roughly 80-85% of capacity. Not that Georgia Southern is a big game or anything, but still...Even the student section wasn't full.

I hated Duke until I moved here. Now they're a "local team" that I feel somewhat compelled to support. Plus I have a lot of friends at Duke, so it's harder to hate them.

2006-11-13 19:05:47
314.   trainwreck
Were they enforcing the new fire safety rules?
2006-11-13 19:06:26
315.   Bob Timmermann
310
Fans of basketball teams that traditionally do well always complain that the refs are out to get them, even when they aren't.

You could hear the same complaints at Pauley Pavilion.

It would just be much quieter there than at Cameron Indoor.

2006-11-13 19:06:36
316.   trainwreck
Or the old fire safety rules that were never enforced.
2006-11-13 19:09:01
317.   Marty
260 Thanks Link, I'll read it. It's Henry Weinstein by the way. He's a good guy. But one of these days I'm afraid he's going to be buried alive under the stacks of paper on his desk.
2006-11-13 19:11:09
318.   Greg Brock
Yeah, Duke...Somehow they became the most hated team around. Oh, and I've been to Cameron, once, for a Duke/Ga Tech game. It was bad...real bad. I was surprised how crazy the fans got.

They use lots of swears...Lots.

2006-11-13 19:11:51
319.   D4P
I read something recently about the new fire safety rules, but I'm not totally sure what their implications were. I'm not sure what normally happens, so I couldn't tell if there was any difference. The students are still right on the court, at least on the sides.
2006-11-13 19:16:51
320.   D4P
I guess I haven't followed college football very closely this year. I'm looking at ESPN's bowl game projections, and ran across these gems:

Orange: Wake Forest vs. Rutgers
Fiesta: Texas vs. Boise State

2006-11-13 19:18:20
321.   Bob Timmermann
You've never seen college basketball until you've gone to Staples Center for four straight games of the Pac-10 tournament. The pageantry is something to see.

It was actually more like an ordeal to see if I could make it through to the end. Especially with Washington State playing in the last game. If the Washington State guy had made his game-tying attempt at the buzzer, I would have come down from the top deck at Staples and shot him.

2006-11-13 19:18:36
322.   Greg Brock
320 Jim Grobe is a very good football coach. Wake has had a nice season.
2006-11-13 19:20:26
323.   Bob Timmermann
I hope I can go to the Motor City Bowl and see that potential matchup between Cincinnati and Central Michigan.
2006-11-13 19:20:58
324.   Bob Timmermann
322

However, I do not think Wake Forest will win the ACC.

2006-11-13 19:24:16
325.   Greg Brock
324 No, they probably won't.

Jim Grobe should wallow in his sorrows by immediately quitting, and taking a job in sunny, beautiful Southern California.

2006-11-13 19:25:54
326.   D4P
321
Then I guess the next time someone asks me if I've ever seen college basketball, my response will have to be "No."
2006-11-13 19:27:42
327.   Bob Timmermann
326

You also need to go see some of the Big West tournament. A little Cal State Long Beach-UC Irvine action to show your basektball chops.

2006-11-13 19:29:56
328.   D4P
Cal State Long Beach-UC Irvine

I'm guessing Derek Lowe would like that game...

2006-11-13 19:31:55
329.   MMSMikey
did anyone read this article on dodgers.com?

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061113&content_id=1740177&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

havent the dodgers won around 16 rookies of the year? and had 5 in a row in the 90's right?

2006-11-13 19:31:56
330.   Icaros
327

Can I watch it under the four-sided pointy roof of a big blue pyramid?

2006-11-13 19:34:39
331.   Bob Timmermann
In grad school, I went to a Cal home game at Harmon "Arena" as Lou Campanelli insisted Harmon Gym be called.

Cal was trailing at halftime to Washington State 28-9. And there was a shot clock in use.

2006-11-13 19:38:46
332.   Vishal
i haven't been to a csulb-uci game, but i've been to csuf-uci... does titans vs. anteaters count?
2006-11-13 19:39:48
333.   Bob Timmermann
332
Fullerton vs. Irvine is a rivalry game! You throw the record book out for that one.

No, seriously, you do.

2006-11-13 19:41:40
334.   D4P
333
Do you retrieve it from the trash for subsequent non-rivalry games, or just start a new one...?
2006-11-13 19:44:59
335.   Vishal
[329] the dodgers have indeed had 15 rookies of the year.
2006-11-13 19:45:46
336.   Vishal
oops, typo! that should be 16.
2006-11-13 19:47:44
337.   natepurcell
according to a bluejays beat writers blog, blue jays are worried that Lugo might be out of their price range.
2006-11-13 19:52:02
338.   Greg Brock
The Dodgers have had 16 ROY's.

One of them is in the Hall of Fame, with Piazza pending.

The Giants have had 5 ROY's. 3 of them are in the Hall of Fame.

2006-11-13 19:53:33
339.   Bob Timmermann
338
I'm telling you it's a crime that Ted Sizemore isn't in the Hall of Fame! A crime!
2006-11-13 19:54:06
340.   Vishal
[337] when you blow wads of cash on BJs and fancy halladays, all of a sudden you find you can't even afford a used lugo.
2006-11-13 19:54:41
341.   Bob Timmermann
Great news! Patrick Cowan is starting again Saturday for UCLA!

Linkmeister's house here we come!

2006-11-13 19:56:08
342.   Greg Brock
Pat Cowan has moxy...or moxie...or moxee.

This is what various Bruin websites have told me.

2006-11-13 19:57:24
343.   Greg Brock
340
Yeah, that one took me a second before I figured out that it didn't mean what I thought it meant.
2006-11-13 19:58:06
344.   Greg Brock
Or maybe it did.
2006-11-13 20:01:03
345.   Vishal
it was either that or... a glaus house?

i'm shamefully oversusceptible to bad puns.

2006-11-13 20:02:31
346.   Greg Brock
Vishal writes headlines for the Springfield Shopper.
2006-11-13 20:06:39
347.   natepurcell
i remember last year when we signed furcal, we were all saying he would be severely overpaid at 13mil a season.

his WARP-1 was 7.9. Which was about .7 lower then his 2005 year but still high.

If the 2million per 1 WARP principle still holds true, furcals 2006 season was technically worth 15.5+ mil.

so what does everyone think? Was furcal worth his salary last year?

2006-11-13 20:07:34
348.   Vishal
is there a moral difference in knowing they're bad and lacking the power to stop yourself from saying it, and enthusiastically proffering them as cleverness? i daresay the shopper falls in the latter category. but i don't know if that's better or worse.
2006-11-13 20:10:40
349.   Greg Brock
348 Trust me, it was not an insult. I'm as big a fan of puns as the next mammal.

Bravo puns!

2006-11-13 20:17:25
350.   trainwreck
347
Yes it was. Furcal contract should be the way to go. Give them tons of money, but not a lot of years.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-11-13 20:18:25
351.   Strike4
339, But he'd probably go in wearing a St Louis uniform, where I believe he hit most of his home runs.
2006-11-13 21:08:37
352.   Greg Brock
I'm trying very hard to like this new show "Heroes" on NBC. It's exactly my type of show, but I cannot seem to dive into it like I should.

The guy who plays Hiro, however, is awesome

2006-11-13 21:11:07
353.   D4P
I'm trying very hard to like this new show "Heroes" on NBC

I don't think I really ever try to like a show. I make the show do the work. If I'm gonna like it, it's gotta make me.

2006-11-13 21:14:19
354.   thinkingblue
The latest story by the LA times about the dodgers scares me to death. I don't want to post the link because I don't know how to use tinyurl, but it basically says:

1) The Dodgers have held serious discussions about moving Kent to firstbase. The Dodgers would then consider signing Adam Kennedy for second base or move Betemit to second and play LaRoche at third base.

2) The Dodgers are pursuing both Soriano and Lee for the outfield. Whether or not they sign these two, the Dodgers are considering about re-signing Lofton and have serious interest in Juan Pierre for centerfield. If neither Soriano nor Lee can be signed, the Dodgers are looking at Gonzalez, Floyd, Nixon, Huff, and Catalanotto.

3)The Dodgers are attempting to trade Toby Hall. If they're able to accomplish a trade, the Dodgers are serious about signing Mike Piazza to back up Martin and to occasionally start at first base.

4) Chances to re-sign Gagne are slim. However, the article pretty much assumes that Saito will return. The Dodgers are looking at Villone, Speier, Springer, Bradford, and Weathers as possible bullpen additions.

Oh no. It looks like we may be in for a long offseason. I mean, that list of outfielders just screams old, overrated, or both to me, and I think Colleti might have to be checked for Wayne Cryvisky- syndrome.

2006-11-13 21:17:30
355.   D4P
354
I think Piazza would be a good signing. He can still hit, and I'd like to see him finish his career as a Dodger.
2006-11-13 21:18:28
356.   trainwreck
354
Are they trying to turn us into alcoholics?
2006-11-13 21:21:07
357.   trainwreck
No Kennedy, no Pierre, no Gonzalez, and forget those bullpen guys.
2006-11-13 21:22:05
358.   Greg Brock
354 Copy the web address, and go to http://tinyurl.com. Paste the address in the space provided, and click on "make tiny." Then just copy the new url it provides.

Don't sweat it. I didn't know how to do it for a long time either.

2006-11-13 21:22:20
359.   trainwreck
Having Piazza will just add to our problems of holding runners.
2006-11-13 21:30:20
360.   Steve
Kenny my darling, you are my sunshine;
When we're together I feel fine.
Your smile is so lovely; your hair is so clean;
You make me feel that the whole world is mine.

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny,
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, K-E-N-N-Y ...
Why? Because you're

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny,

(pause)

Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny,
Kenny of mine!

Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine,
Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine,
... Mine!

[Two years? Three years? Five years? Welcome back, Kenny. We love you. Don't listen to all these guys here. Bunch of cranks. You've got to come back. Please. Don't make me beg.]

2006-11-13 21:35:24
361.   trainwreck
I will gladly take Lofton over Pierre.
2006-11-13 21:36:02
362.   Vishal
[354] there are a lot of yucky tidbits in that article.
2006-11-13 21:37:06
363.   Steve
You think I sing to every banjo-hitting, rag-armed, 41-year-old centerfielder that comes along?

No. Only the ones that are more talented than Juan Pierre.

2006-11-13 21:40:26
364.   regfairfield
At this point I'm willing to accept having Repko play centerfield until either Werth or Kemp are ready.

When Kenny Lofton is by far the most palatable solution out there, it's just not worth trying.

2006-11-13 21:41:34
365.   Greg Brock
Shout out to Steve for a little Cheers nostalgia.
2006-11-13 21:44:08
366.   trainwreck
354 scared me more than any horror movie possibly could.
2006-11-13 21:52:39
367.   Icaros
If I'm forced to see David Weathers in a Dodgers uniform, all bets are off.
2006-11-13 22:07:52
368.   bhsportsguy
Remember, Ned tends to make deals that does not show up in the papers beforehand.
2006-11-13 22:09:10
369.   trainwreck
Except Maddux.
2006-11-13 22:12:08
370.   Dark Horse
354-Terrifying as almost all those scenarios look, the actual phrasing within the article itself is a bit more reassuring. (Insofar as one can be reassured by and against such things.) It says for instance that Adam Kennedy's name has come up but "a more likely scenerio" involves Loney at first, Kent remaining at second and Betamit/LaRoche fighting it out at 3rd. In other words...most probably not.

I have no ammunition against Juan Pierre & Lofton except Soriano and/or Lee.

2006-11-13 22:15:47
371.   Vishal
i think juan pierre would look very good in a dodger uniform...

unfortunately, he would still continue to play very badly.

2006-11-13 22:17:02
372.   thinkingblue
370.

Oh good. I'm just having scary visions of this line up though:

Furcal
Pierre
Gonzales
Kent
Betemit
Loney
Ethier
Martin

and I'm having scary visions of Colleti going Cincinatti on us and spending everything on the bullpen.

2006-11-13 22:23:47
373.   Bob Timmermann
I again raise my principal objection to Juan Pierre:

His incredibly small head.

2006-11-13 22:24:51
374.   Greg Brock
Phrenolometrics...The final frontier in baseball analysis.
2006-11-13 22:26:48
375.   trainwreck
372
We would totally fix our lac of power with that lineup.
2006-11-13 22:28:19
376.   Vishal
[375] it would be fixed like a neutered puppy.
2006-11-13 22:38:46
377.   Icaros
My favorite LA Times speculation lineup is:

Furcal-SS
Pierre-CF
Ethier-RF
Kent-1B
Catalanotto-LF
Betemit-3B
Martin-C
Kennedy-2B

Trade Loney for bullpen help.

2006-11-13 22:39:48
378.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Pierre has the brainpan of a common stage coach tilter.
2006-11-13 22:40:44
379.   natepurcell
new SI heyman article says that the asking price for zito from boras is 7yrs 105 mil.

thats uhh...alot of money. even for a starter as durable as zito, the max i would go is 5.

you could try the furcal approach and go maybe 16 for 3 years. that way, you get his 28-31 prime years and you let zito have another big payday at age 31. If zito can keep up his WARP-1 pace of around 7 he would only be overpaid 2mil or so a year. and in the FA market, thats not sooo bad.

its better then having juan pierre in CF.

2006-11-13 22:41:30
380.   Greg Brock
Nothing is more fascinating than Bob's fascination with Juan Pierre's head.
2006-11-13 22:42:00
381.   Steve
The final frontier in baseball analysis

I thought that was Numb3rs.

2006-11-13 22:42:49
382.   Steve
its better then having juan pierre in CF.

Save the Jason...

Save the world...

2006-11-13 22:43:55
383.   Icaros
Bob was telling me earlier that sometimes he imagines himself drinking warm Sake out of Juan Pierre's skull.
2006-11-13 22:44:01
384.   natepurcell
and also this...

The Red Sox certainly aren't messing around. As SI.com reported Monday, they are about to make an offer to free-agent outfielder J.D. Drew that is expected to be for at least $44 million over four years, and perhaps more.

44/4 isnt going to cut it for boras.

2006-11-13 22:47:44
385.   Greg Brock
That Zito money just can't be serious. I really like Zito, but he's a great 3 starter, or a really good #2.

105 million? Not a chance. The Orioles, maybe...

2006-11-13 22:49:33
386.   Linkmeister
If you're using Firefox, you can drag the tinyurl function to your toolbar, which will automatically convert the long url from the page you're on to the tinyurl url. Better yet, they've now added a Preview tinyurl function so the suspicious intertubes user can verify where he or she is being taken before clicking.
2006-11-13 22:50:29
387.   Vishal
you think 4/48 will? that'd be one more year and $15 million more than his dodger contract had left.
2006-11-13 22:50:41
388.   Icaros
If Gary Matthews Jr. promised to put up last season's numbers for the length of his contract, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

But why is he 32? And what's up with one good season preceeded by seven lousy ones?

2006-11-13 22:53:30
389.   natepurcell
with so many teams needing quality outfielders, i really think boras is going to get some team to give drew 5 years.
2006-11-13 22:55:39
390.   trainwreck
I do not think we are going to improve vastly with this terrible free agent class. We should make trades to upgrade or just make minor moves and deal Kent if he wants to leave.
2006-11-13 22:59:08
391.   Vishal
[389] i would laugh if drew gets a 5-55 dreifort special.
2006-11-13 23:01:27
392.   natepurcell
391

did you laugh when he recieved one from us 2 yrs ago? hehe

2006-11-13 23:06:32
393.   Vishal
yes. :) and also when burnett got one.

it's just a magic number.

2006-11-13 23:06:56
394.   regfairfield
What do you guys think it would take to get Jason Michaels from the Indians as a temporary solution? He showed he can't really handle a full time job, but he's better than Repko as a placeholder for Kemp, and his numbers look much better in center.
2006-11-13 23:13:11
395.   natepurcell
394

id rather try and get casey blake and have him play a corner OF spot.

2006-11-13 23:15:46
396.   Greg Brock
394 He doesn't have a whole lot of pop (if I recall correctly), but he's a good fielder, which isn't something we have. It couldn't take that much to get somebody like that, could it?
2006-11-13 23:16:51
397.   Greg Brock
Of course, they have a guy named Sizemore that I wouldn't mind having...:)
2006-11-13 23:17:50
398.   regfairfield
395 If the market for centerfielders weren't so terrible, I'd want him, but is there anyone remotely appealing that can play the position avialable? Michaels can, and hopefully he'd have a slightly better season, at least from a patience standpoint.
2006-11-13 23:19:04
399.   thinkingblue
394.

Creative. But what about Kemp+Penny for Wells, and sign Maddux and Schmidt? Is that at all realistic, or am I dreaming?

2006-11-13 23:23:39
400.   regfairfield
399 That has the problem of Wells saying "I'd rather be a free agent" then you don't have Matt Kemp, Vernon Wells, or Brad Penny.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-11-13 23:28:37
401.   Greg Brock
And Wells is going to get paid...Huge. Not that he's not a heck of a player, but he's going to end up with a monster contract.

Me likey the Vernon Wells, but you better end up the top bidder when he's a free agent, and you're gonna pay for it.

2006-11-13 23:29:17
402.   Greg Brock
Same thing with Andruw Jones.
2006-11-13 23:33:22
403.   natepurcell
i dont really want to trade Kemp. I want a homegrown superstar position player and Kemp has the best chance to become that.

Wells and Kemp minor league comparisons.

wells age 20 season:
A+: 265AB 343/403/543 26bb 34k
AA: 106AB 340/400/519 12bb 15k
AAA: 129AB 310/357/481 10bb 22k

wells age 21 season:
AAA: 493AB 243/313/432 48bb 88k

wells age 22 season:
AAA: 413AB 281/333/453 29bb 68k

Kemps age 20 season:
A+: 418AB 306/349/569 25bb 92k

Kemps Age 21 season:
AA: 199AB 327/402/528 20bb 38k
AAA: 182AB 368/428/560 17bb 26k

2006-11-13 23:34:15
404.   thinkingblue
400.

Well, maybe we would have the money. Maybe we can just do the trade, then call up Elbert or something, or sign another cheaper free agent. I just want some way to get Wells. Worrying about signing him after we get him. Maybe foolish, but he's a monster, and a good centerfielder.

2006-11-13 23:36:39
405.   thinkingblue
403.

you have a point. but what about defense? or is Wells a bit overrated?

2006-11-13 23:39:02
406.   natepurcell
it seems that BP's RATE-2 has wells as pretty overrated as a defender with a career rate2 of 99.

2006: 96
2005: 102
2004: 102

for all the acclaim he gets, his metrics should be better. then again, RATE-2 could be really flawed.

2006-11-13 23:44:14
407.   thinkingblue
maybe Kemp is too much to give up. but then again, I just want Wells on the team. just my opinion. I can certainly understand where you wouldn't want to give up Kemp though. I just hope that we don't do what 354 suggest the dodgers may.
2006-11-14 00:36:47
408.   dzzrtRatt
I mean, that list of outfielders just screams old, overrated, or both to me, and I think Colleti might have to be checked for Wayne Cryvisky- syndrome.

The young, underrated or both are currently unavailable. It's not like Colletti, or whoever the story's source was, just sat down and gave the reporter his list of top ten outfielders. These are the movable pieces. Unless you want to trade away Russell Martin and James Loney and Jonathan Broxton. Then more opportunities will open up.

I would take Pierre over Lofton because sometimes a banjo-hitting CF has to catch the ball. But I hope it's neither one.

Strategy this year same as last year -- placeholders. I don't care if old, overrated, whatever. If they can do a decent job and then go away when the youngsters are ready, that's the best we can hope for. Drew's departure means a title in '07 would be a stretch, so we should, sadly, be playing for the future.

2006-11-14 07:36:01
409.   JoeyP
Ned needs to accept that the free agent class isnt very good, and just spend the available funds on the high end pitching that is available.

If we signed Zito, Schmidt and maybe a Byrnes to play CF'er, I'd be fine with that.

Signing average or below average veterans like Pierre, Gonzo, Catalonotto etc...That doesnt really accomplish anything in terms of building for the future.

I think you add pitching this winter as building blocks. Next winter you add hitting.

But please Ned, no veterans to multie year deals (Mueller, Tomko) come to mind.

2006-11-14 12:56:35
410.   norcalblue
Jon,

As I read and re-read your post, I sense that this is more about Depo than it is Drew. It certainly is for me.

It has been almost 13 months since Depo's lynching and I am certainly not past it. The latest round of Depo trashing from Plaschke and his followers is very hard to take. As unconventional baseball men who lack the perfection of Koufax, Drew and Depo are both doomed to be tragic and marginalized figures in Dodger history. I think the last Dodger I felt so much compassion for was Dick Allen.

Thanks for taking the time to write this.

2006-11-14 13:39:21
411.   Jon Weisman
410 - It's really actually mostly about Drew - you can pretty much take it at face value - but yes, I do see a connection between Drew and DePodesta and Choi, all of whom got caught on the wrong side of the Love Tester.

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