the M's are tough.

We need some work on the I,J,Q,Z letters.

Hate to see Davy Lopes win anything.

Fred Underwood?

I refuse to accept Fred Underwood!

Guerrero over Garvey is a bold move.

One may even call it "interesting"

Luckily, you fast posters missed my mistake on S before I corrected it.

Now, I'm going to sleep. All other corrections and omissions will have to be repaired in the morning.

Does Xavier Paul count?

And Greg Brock is this* close to changing his name to Sweetbreads Bailey.

*{Puts index finger and thumb very close to one another}

[7] burleigh grimes and mysterious walker are cooler appellations than sweetbreads and brock.

8 That's crazy talk my friend.

Sweetbreads Bailey is awesome.

i think burleigh grimes has to be the single most badass name i've ever heard.

sweetbreads, meanwhile, is a mere 4 letters removed from sweetcheeks.

You can't get any more old timey than Sweetbreads Bailey.

Well, Sweet River Baines is pretty old timey.

Sloppy Thurston sounds like a porn name.

by the way, is it just me, or does travis hafner look a heck of a lot like grimes?

My fave is Ed Pipgrass.

here's a photo comparison...

hafner: http://tinyurl.com/yb527u
grimes: http://tinyurl.com/yhgpuv

12 We were all thinking it.

Weren't we?

Hello?

[16] guilty as charged.

I guess Sloppy would be a good dog name.

Interesting Dodger report in the LA Times

Colletti said the Dodgers are close to an agreement with closer Takashi Saito, who made $500,000 as a rookie last season but had hinted that he would remain in Japan if he didn't get a significant raise.

Fox Sports Pacific is showing the 1996 USC UCLA game.

And the Daily News is more specific.

ORLANDO, Fla. - The Dodgers are believed to be close to an agreement with closer Takashi Saito on a one-year contract worth about $1 million. The deal would double Saito's salary.

21
That would be a good price.

At the going rate for relievers, that's a downright steal.

2. How upset would you be if Ned trades LaRoche and Loney?

Handicapping the rest of the pack; Martin's got a tough road ahead of him while Broxton and Billingsly can battle it out to unseat Mr. Toothpick. Kemp and Kershaw stand little to no chance while Kuo can become Guo for a rough, but much more doable path into the coveted 26 man roster. Ethier and Elbert look to face the comparatively slackest competition in the form of Mr. Erskine. Keep a weathered eye open for Miller to leap back into contention to further crowd the M's and we'll all be watching to see if three years is enough for Furcal to unseat Furillo. Probably not.

Who needs pennants?

"pen to debate, with some exceptions" -- so I guess you'll not be hearing my appeal on behalf of Don Aase?

Grrr . . . "o"

Anyhow, speaking of appeals, sad there's no room on the list for William Brennan.

4 - Gagne for a 2+ year span with his 84 consecutive saves was a pretty impressive feat and Gibby's 88 season and historic game 1 HR should also warrant consideration for the G's. For the J's, I would also like to enter "Sweet Lou" Johnson whose Game 7 HR in the 65 series gave Koufax the only run he needed though the Dodgers added an additional run for a 2-0 victory. Also Jay Johnstone for his contributions to the 81 WS championship club. Otherwise, I have no quarrel regarding most of the other letters in the alphabet. V is somewhat debateable in that Fernando opened up the Latino market in LA with his success. I wonder how much Jon pondered Vance v. Valenzuela? I have insomnia tonight, so this is a good topic.

I learned in the Post this morning that Reba McEntire's husband is named Narvel Blackstock.

Any room for him him in here?

Great list, I would only have one exception and I bet it's a common one. I was pretty young when Pedro Guerrero left the Dodgers, so I don't remember him too much. One thing I can remember is the excitement Eric Gagne provided every Dodger fan with from 2002-2004. I'm hard pressed to think of a Dodger who was more dominant in his time.

29

aside from Koufax that is.

p.s. I told a co-worker about my Gagne over Guerrero take and sparked a pretty heated debate. He refused to accept Gagne's lack of longevity and insisted that Guerrero's sustained production is more impressive. To me, you can't ignore the level of excitement Gagne brought to Dodger fans in that period of time. During his stretch, I could only listen to the internet broadcasts, but Gagne made me feel like I HAD to listen to every game, and he delivered EVERY time. Perhaps you have to be a Dodger fan (this guy's a Yankee fan) to understand exactly what was going on during that time to truly understand Gagne's effect from '02 to '04 (and for a few games last season even, ha).

This might seem strange but perhaps there should be a tie between Robinson and Reese-it is hard to imagine Robinson enduring what he had to endure without Reese having his back and generating teammate support.

Looks like Ned made it through the first day of winter meetings without screwing up.

I want to thank all the little people who made this possible...

Latest from Rosenthal:

Quick hits from the winter meetings:

As of late Monday night, the Orioles had made the best offer to Luis Gonzalez, but the Dodgers remained a possibility for the free-agent outfielder, major-league sources told FOXSports.com.
Gonzalez, 39, would prefer to stay in the N.L. West, and his representatives were scheduled to meet with the Dodgers at 11 a.m. Tuesday. In the end, Gonzalez is expected to receive a one-year deal with an option for 2008.

If Gonzalez signs with the Dodgers, it almost certainly would mean the end of the team's trade discussions involving Red Sox left fielder Manny Ramirez.

The Red Sox told one club on Monday that they have received a legitimate offer for Ramirez, and that it revolves around "young pitching."

If that's true, the Dodgers or Angels would be the Sox's most likely trade partners. The Mariners, another team that has spoken with the Sox, are not deep in young pitching.

The Dodgers view Ramirez as a "longshot" even though owner Frank McCourt, a Boston native, is believed to be pushing for a deal.

The only way the Angels will get serious about Ramirez, sources say, is if owner Arte Moreno demands they get involved.

But the Nats/Jints/Sox deal that Sam recklessly injected into the conversation last night revolved around young pitching. It must have been true!

Reckless three-team rumor part deux:

http://tinyurl.com/w2jel

Late yesterday afternoon, a rumor floated through the hotel that the Sox, Dodgers and Houston Astros were working on a complicated deal that would have sent Ramirez to L.A., Brad Penny to Houston and Loney and Morgan Ensberg to the Sox. The deal was categorically dismissed by at least two of the teams involved. The San Francisco Giants continue to pursue Ramirez, but aren't thought to have the talent to put together an attractive package.

Gil Hodges?

27 - Following up on my earlier comments, even though Dazzy Vance might have better overall numbers, I think Jon has already had major representation for the Brooklyn portion of the Dodger history with the predominance being from the "Boys of Summer" era. He has Campy, Duke, Jackie, Newcombe, Erskine and Furillo. He has Mungo and Zack Wheat as well along with Popeye Zimmer. Fernando was a pioneer for the Dodgers maybe not on the same level as Jackie as he was the the first Mexican citizen to play MLB, but at the time he opened up the fan base in LA and across the nation to the Latin American fans. Fernando is another reason I loved the Dodgers, the organization that had an open mind to think out of the box and step on a limb and take a chance on an unknown 20 year old Mexican pitcher. My vote for Fernando is one that reaches beyond the ballfield performances though I think Fernando's career would still stand on his own very well. Plus that was the era when I was in my 20's and a passionate Dodger fan and Fernando is my contemporary as to age. Fernando in fact is about 6 weeks younger than me.

38 I should have meant "not the first Mexican citizen to play" My error!!

37 - Another case where we as fans are as guilty as the Hall of Fame - ignoring Gil Hodges. Shame, Shame. Wow! The G's are as deep or deeper than the M's.

The Giants and Mariners are rumored to be interested in a three way trade. From MLB News Hot Stove Report.

Manny to Seattle.
Rafael Soriano to Boston.
Sexon to Gaints.

The article failed to mention what the Giants give up. But if Boston is saying they have a legitimate offer for Manny involving young pitchers, could the Giants be offering Cain? Cain for Sexon? I didn't know Sexon was that old.

McCourt better not be pushing for another Boston player, namely Manny just because he still loves Boston. If he is, perhaps he should sell the Dodgers, move back to Boston, and just be a BoSox fan.

38
Those are all good points about Fernando Valenzuela, but that still can't ignore Dazzy Vance's pitching records. That guy put up some tremendous pitching numbers in an era of insane offense.

Vance also just edges out Koufax for the best ERA+ of a starter in Dodgers history. Vance had a 191 in 1928. Koufax was 190 in 1966.

In the future, anytime we need to come up with nicknames for Dodger rookies, I suggest we just consult this list for inspiration.

Fats Broxton
Sweetbreads Billingsley
Elmer LaRoche
Cannonball Kuo
Whitey... uh, nevermind
Bobo Abreu
Possum Martin
Dazzy Kershaw

Etc., etc.

Too bad Phenomenal Smith couldn't edge out Franklin Stubbs for the "S" spot.

Any list that has no room for Possum Whitted is fundamentally flawed...

You know, 43 was mostly a joke, but reading it over, I actually like Cannonball Kuo a lot.

I'm gonna save that one for the official nickname nomination thread.

Gang--I begin with a G for a reason--I just can't put Guerrero ahead of Garvey for long-term impact. If you're talking immediate impact, for one year, for one swing, Kirk Gibson.

[46] it's not bad, but it'll face some stiff competition from "kuofax", i think.

37 - Yes, you're right.

Too late now, but Ryan Church is available:

http://tinyurl.com/yjvao3

If the Angels are close to a Figgins+Kotchman for Adam LaRoche deal with the Braves, why don't the Dodgers try Anderson+Loney for LaRoche?

Pedro Guerrero OPS+ as a Dodger regular: 139, 156, 150, 130, 181, 129, 155, 129

Steve Garvey: 130, 133, 133, 121, 137, 130, 126, 111, 101

I'm comfortable with my choice. Guerrero had four seasons better than Garvey's best. You can mitigate that with defense if you want, but it doesn't sway me.

Fernando had two years in which he out-SLG'd Juan Pierre's best season.

43 - Sweetbreads Billingsley. Yes.

Maury Wills (at least on an over list).
Ron Perranoski and Reggie Smith on the over list.
And as much as I liked him and w/ all due respect to 33, it seems like there's gotta be another "T" to list with Darell Thomas - but I can't think of one either.
Finally, I know this is a player list, but I still want to nominate Walter Alston and Vin Scully - they're over the others on their letter.

Unless your only including players, I don't see how you could have an all time Dodger list without Vin Scully on there. Don't hall of fame announcers get credited for being part of this organization?

It's just a player list. Vin is in a class by himself, anyway.

I doubt Vin Scully would consider his contributions to the Dodgers greater than those of Snider or Sutton.

Or a lot of other guys.

Or just about all of them.

I love Reggie Smith, but the difference between him and Snider in a Dodger uniform is so great as to make him not even an also-ran. Same basically goes for Wheat and Perranoski, though I admit I wasn't altogether consistent with the runners-up (or runnerups) that I named.

Vin Scully would never want his name on this list. He would appear several times on an all-time announcers list under V, S, and G as in Greatest Dodger of them all.

25

as Chris Berman might say ...
Don Aase Bad Moon a-Rising

59 I don't disagree at all with that, Jon, and would not have brought up Reggie at all if just Duke was there. But my thought is that putting Reggie and Don Sutton at/near the same level is appropriate.

An announcer needs players and fans to survive. Fans need players and the announer. Players need the fans and the announcer to survive.

It's my theory of trilateral symbiosis.

"Announcer" symbolizes both a person and the promotion of the team.

30. As a Dodger fan, I also think your crazy as well. I loved the Gagne experience, but the fact is, through the '80's, Guerrero was the only Dodger who came to the plate that I did not expect to strike-out every time. On the rare occassions I got to see a Dodger game during that time, I would just hold out hope that somehow this collection of John Shelbys would somehow get on base enought to allow Pedro a chance to get some runs. Watching that man hit was excitement.

Fred Underwood?

The Todd: "I'm carrying underwood right now..."

65 Nice. Blog-five!

{holds up hand}

CF Peirre/ Repko
RF Kemp/Werth/Ethier
SS Furcal, Martinez
3B Garciapara/Betemit
LF Ethier/Gonzo/Garciapara
2B Kent/Anderson
1B Loney/Saenz
C Martin/Lieberthal

Lowe, Penny, Wolf, Billingsley, Kuo

Saito, Broxton, Miller, Biemel, Sturtz? Tomko, Hendrickson

Start the season like this and adjust at mid season. We are all hoping Kemp will force his way into right field no later than July anyway.

By mid-season the Dodgers could be able to trade Tomko, Hendrickson, Pierre, and Gonzo to get a key player instead of the long-term pieces.

Zeile over Zimmer. His one year in 97 probably trumps the combined years of Zimmer of 54-59 since only one year(59) did Zimmer total more then 450 ab's. He was a lousy ballplayer whose only claim to fame is the plate in his head. Zeile was at least good in 97.

42 - I don't mean to disparage Dazzy Vance's accomplishments, I even admitted his pitching stats were better. I just wanted to see some more comtemporary players who I rooted for in the 70's and 80's growing up in Dodgerland. I actually have read books about Dodger history and honor the past and the great and colorful players of the Dodgers of yore. You really can't go wrong with either Dazzy or Ferdie, I just wanted to give Fernando his due.
31 - Interesting point regarding Jackie and Pee Wee being tied. It would be symbolic, the ultimate symbol of team unity and the song by Stevie and Paul, "Ebony and Ivory" comes to mind.

Looks like Saito's coming back after all. This is from Rotoworld:

A press conference is scheduled for Wednesday to announce Takashi Saito's new deal with the Dodgers.
Sources told the Kyodo News that Saito, who is expected to remain the Dodgers' closer, will about double the $320,000 he made last season.

It cites the Kyodo News as the source.

69- Somebody's been rummaging through Brock's music library. . .

64
Point taken. It's hard for me because I'm only 24 and even though I've read about as much as I can about Dodgers history, I didn't live through the Guerrero era have the chance to see him play. I'm just going off the basis of Eric Gagne having me on the edge of my seat for 3 full seasons. I cannot imagine any player doing that again, I sure hope it happens.

Even though I hear Gonzo's name I would think he'd be leary of signing with us. He just lost his job in Arizona because of the influx of good young outfielders and he would face the same problem here by July. Ethier is already as good if not better and Kemp surely should be better in a short period of time. Why would he sign with us since he was so ticked at the Diamondbacks for moving him out to pasture where he belongs.

69
Luckily I haven't eaten breakfeast yet and the gag reflex of hearing "ebony & ivory" associated with my favorite ballplayer of all time didn't cause any damage.

74 - LOL!

Using the Bill Games Runs Created forumla and the Lahman database I've calculated the top 25 runs created years for the Dodger franchise. This only includes years after 1947, the post integration years.
Snider - 5 times (1,2,5,9,12)
Guerrero - 4 times (20,21,23,24)
Sheffield - 3 times (8,14,17)
Piazza - 2 times (3,16)
J Robinson - 2 times(4,11)
S Green - 2 times (6, 19)
Beltre - 1 time (7)
Campanella - 1 time (18)
T Davis - 1 time (10)
Hodges - 1 time (13)
Mondesi - 1 time (22)
PeeWeeReese - 1 time(25)
R Smith - 1 time (15)

72 Job, shmob!!! I can think of several million reasons he'd want to play here. Or in San Francisco. Or Washington. Or Baltimore... You get the idea...

I don't suppose you get any consideration for the second list based on a superior nickname - even though Dazzy is nobody's given name. Just for conversation's sake I offer up . . . S - Stan the Man Unusual (over Franklin Stubbs).

Quick, someone email ToyCannon's 73 to Gonzo. Not to his agent - his agent figures getting paid to sit is even better than getting paid to play and stink. Email directly to Gonzales.

For the H's on the list - what about big
Frank Howard? He at least be on the same runner up to Hodges list with Orel and Babe Herman. God, this is fun!!

Time to bore everyone with some Bill James Win Share tidbits.

1. The dumped on Juan Pierre had 15, while the departed JD Drew 19. Edmunds 11, Matthews 21, and ManRam 27.
2. Middle Infielder over 20
Jeter 32
Reyes 28
Furcal had 27,
Utely 27
M Young 26
Hanley Ramirez 25
Carlos Guillen 25
Rollins 25
Uggla 23
Orland Hudson 20,(defense defense defense)
And the biggest surprise is Vizquel at 20.

Thought Furcal had a top 10 MVP year.

Interesting .. there is no representation on your list from the 1988 World Series champions, which provided two of the most memorable events in recent baseball history.

G - I would have called it a tie between Garvey and Guerrero, or given the nod to Garvey. Gibson is a close 3rd, for the magic of 1988. My wife has an ESPN classic show about that team on DVD, and pulls it out every spring.

H - Disagree - should be Hershiser with the nod over Hodges. As with Gibson - 1988 was magic. The consecutive scoreless streak stands on its own as the greatest pitching achievement in baseball history, and he did it while leading the team to a pennant and series win.

V - You are way wrong here; it has to be Valenzuela. He not only performed admirably, but his charisma and leadership rejuvinated the Dodgers in the aftermath of the strike and as the Garvey/Cey/Baker crowd ended their careers.

I knew Joe Thurston's defense was bad...
but I didn't know he was sloppy.

82 - I was biased against "moments" and for long-term production. Either way, I simply don't see a case for Garvey at all. Garvey was good - beloved, even - but selecting him over Guerrero would be all about hype.

I did struggle with Valenzuela vs. Vance, but Vance's performance is so great and so underappreciated by today's fans, that I felt I had to point to it. Just because there were magic moments in our lives doesn't mean there weren't any before we came along.

Given the whole storyline of 1988, doesn't it make sense that very few from that team, if any, would be on an all-time team? Though Hershiser would have made it with a different last name, it's not inappropriate that that team is repped only on the Fun Names squad.

What about Jim Gilliam?

85 - Worthy sentimental contender

On the topic of names- Pierre must be a throwback player given his most comparables at b-ref:

Carson Bigbee
Whitey Witt
Ducky Holmes
Orator Shaffer
Debs Garms
Patsy Dougherty

Orator Shaffer must have gotten hammered on the message boards for this career line: .282/.326/.367 (1874-1890)

Bill James Hitting projections. He loves our kids but history has shown that BJ's projections for kids with < one year of service are rosy.
HR/AVG/OB/Slug/OPS
M Anderson 6/261/320/400/720
Betemit 14/268/331/443/774
Ethier 17//306/355/466/833
Furcal 13/287/356/418/774
Nomar 17/304/364/504/868
Kemp 20/311/365/503/868
Kent 23/286/366/487/853
LaRoche 18/287/373/462/835
Loney 11/305/360/460/820
Martin 9/288/375/425/799
Pierre 2/299/346/373/719
Werth 12/249/336/427/763

John Tudor is one of my favorites for 'T'.

T is such a common letter, I couldn't believe that Derrel Thomas was the only T worth mentioning, but after looking it up, there is nobody there. Do we have any prospects with a T last name. It is time to bring back Joe Thurston to establish himself as the greatest T ever. It wouldn't take much.

If Jon had done a LA Dodger alphabet team then Orel surely gets the nod but since were talking about the Dodger franchise then it surely has to go to Vance.

I would think that most current day Dodger fans only think of the LA version and give barely a thought to the Brooklyn brethren. I've never understood taking the records of the existing franchise when you move a team. The Brooklyn team should stand on its own and LA team should stand on its own. It is strictly PR mumbo jumbo to combine the two franchises. The databases seperate the two and so should we. JMO

81 - Well, I guess Pierre's defense is good.

Jon wrote in #84:

"I was biased against 'moments' and for long-term production."

Clearly. But I question that bias. Baseball isn't just about the numbers. Which would you rather have; a solid (even great) producer give you 10 good years but never win, or a mercurial producer who brings a Series win? I would go for the latter every time, because the Dodgers aren't the Yankees who are going to buy the best team every year. The Dodgers will need some magic to win it all; to ignore that magic is to be missing something.

Later in the same post ...
"Given the whole storyline of 1988, doesn't it make sense that very few from that team, if any, would be on an all-time team?"

Very few, yes. None, no. The Hershiser and Gibson stories are so compelling because of the context. That team had no business winning the division, let alone beating the Mets or the A's. Yet, they did.

Jon also wrote ...
"Garvey was good - beloved, even - but selecting him over Guerrero would be all about hype."

I think Garvey's rep has been tarnished by his post-baseball troubles. He was a leader and the best known of that wonderful group. That said, I can see your point.

Don't know if this was posted in another thread, but Will Carroll is reporting from Orlando that "the Dodgers' offer of LaRoche and Broxton has fallen short" in the ManRam sweepstakes and talks are now shifting to the Angels.

It may be irrational of me, but I'd just assume hang on to almost all of the kids and only deal for veteran starting pitching if we deal for anything at all.

91 - I disagree with your second paragraph, given the direct connections between Brooklyn and Los Angeles and the number of people who bridged that gap. I don't see why geography forces us to forget our roots.

93 - Valid points, but again, you're assuming there was no magic when Dazzy Vance pitched or Gil Hodges swung the bat.

As for Garvey, I could hardly care less about his post-baseball troubles. He was overrated as a player. He was good but not great.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/11057.html

93
Garvey's rep has been tarnished but he was a solid run producer for a number of years. Problem is that he's going against one of Jon's favorite players and for a very good reason. Pedro gave us 4 of the top 25 offensive seasons in Post 1947 Dodger history. That is hard to argue with.

1. Posted by Snowdog
Interesting debate on Guerrero and Garvey.

I'm biased on this one, as Garvey was (i