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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The All-Time Dodger Alphabet Team
2006-12-04 23:47
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Just to lighten things up this offseason ...

(Subject to revision - and of course, wide open to debate. With some exceptions.)

A - Pedro Astacio over Sandy Amoros
B - Dusty Baker over Adrian Beltre, Joe Black and Bill Buckner
C - Roy Campanella over Ron Cey
D - Don Drysdale over Tommy Davis and Willie Davis
E - Carl Erskine
F - Carl Furillo
G - Pedro Guerrero over Steve Garvey, Eric Gagne, Kirk Gibson and Burleigh Grimes
H - Gil Hodges over Babe Herman and Orel Hershiser
I - Cesar Izturis over Kazuhisa Ishii
J - Tommy John over Jimmy Johnston
K - Sandy Koufax
L - Davey Lopes over Clem Labine
M - Van Lingle Mungo over Rube Marquard, Mike G. Marshall, Ramon Martinez I, Raul Mondesi and Manny Mota
N - Don Newcombe
O - Claude Osteen
P - Mike Piazza
Q - Jack Quinn over Paul Quantrill
R - Jackie Robinson over Pee Wee Reese
S - Duke Snider over Don Sutton
T - Derrel Thomas
U - Fred Underwood
V - Dazzy Vance over Fernando Valenzuela
W - Zack Wheat
X -
Y - Steve Yeager
Z - Don Zimmer over Geoff Zahn

Fun Name Team
A - Whitey Alperman
B - Sweetbreads Bailey
C - Cannonball Crane
D - Fats Dantonio
E - Ox Eckhardt
F - Jack Fimple
G - Welcome Gaston
H - Still Bill Hill
I - Bert Inks
J - Binky Jones
K - Elmer Knetzer
L - Charlie Loudenslager
M - George Magoon
N - Bobo Newsom
O - Whitey Ock
P - Ed Pipgrass
Q - Jack Quinn over Paul Quantrill
R - Jimmy Ripple
S - Franklin Stubbs
T - Sloppy Thurston
U - Fred Underwood
V - Dazzy Vance over Fernando Valenzuela
W - Mysterious Walker over Possum Whitted
X -
Y - Earl Yingling
Z - Don Zimmer

Comments (129)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-12-04 23:57:16
1.   Vishal
the M's are tough.
2006-12-04 23:57:21
2.   ToyCannon
We need some work on the I,J,Q,Z letters.

Hate to see Davy Lopes win anything.

2006-12-04 23:59:54
3.   Bob Timmermann
Fred Underwood?

I refuse to accept Fred Underwood!

2006-12-05 00:02:12
4.   Greg Brock
Guerrero over Garvey is a bold move.

One may even call it "interesting"

2006-12-05 00:02:33
5.   Jon Weisman
Luckily, you fast posters missed my mistake on S before I corrected it.

Now, I'm going to sleep. All other corrections and omissions will have to be repaired in the morning.

2006-12-05 00:05:03
6.   trainwreck
Does Xavier Paul count?
2006-12-05 00:05:13
7.   Greg Brock
And Greg Brock is this* close to changing his name to Sweetbreads Bailey.

*{Puts index finger and thumb very close to one another}

2006-12-05 00:09:03
8.   Vishal
[7] burleigh grimes and mysterious walker are cooler appellations than sweetbreads and brock.
2006-12-05 00:13:14
9.   Greg Brock
8 That's crazy talk my friend.

Sweetbreads Bailey is awesome.

2006-12-05 00:15:34
10.   Vishal
i think burleigh grimes has to be the single most badass name i've ever heard.

sweetbreads, meanwhile, is a mere 4 letters removed from sweetcheeks.

2006-12-05 00:18:59
11.   Greg Brock
You can't get any more old timey than Sweetbreads Bailey.

Well, Sweet River Baines is pretty old timey.

2006-12-05 00:20:58
12.   trainwreck
Sloppy Thurston sounds like a porn name.
2006-12-05 00:21:21
13.   Vishal
by the way, is it just me, or does travis hafner look a heck of a lot like grimes?
2006-12-05 00:23:16
14.   s choir
My fave is Ed Pipgrass.
2006-12-05 00:23:25
15.   Vishal
here's a photo comparison...

hafner: http://tinyurl.com/yb527u
grimes: http://tinyurl.com/yhgpuv

2006-12-05 00:24:37
16.   Greg Brock
12 We were all thinking it.

Weren't we?

Hello?

2006-12-05 00:25:13
17.   Vishal
[16] guilty as charged.
2006-12-05 00:27:39
18.   trainwreck
I guess Sloppy would be a good dog name.
2006-12-05 00:29:31
19.   StolenMonkey86
Interesting Dodger report in the LA Times

Colletti said the Dodgers are close to an agreement with closer Takashi Saito, who made $500,000 as a rookie last season but had hinted that he would remain in Japan if he didn't get a significant raise.

2006-12-05 00:30:22
20.   trainwreck
Fox Sports Pacific is showing the 1996 USC UCLA game.
2006-12-05 00:36:48
21.   StolenMonkey86
And the Daily News is more specific.

ORLANDO, Fla. - The Dodgers are believed to be close to an agreement with closer Takashi Saito on a one-year contract worth about $1 million. The deal would double Saito's salary.

2006-12-05 00:38:45
22.   trainwreck
21
That would be a good price.
2006-12-05 00:41:26
23.   Greg Brock
At the going rate for relievers, that's a downright steal.
2006-12-05 02:48:50
24.   xaphor
2. How upset would you be if Ned trades LaRoche and Loney?

Handicapping the rest of the pack; Martin's got a tough road ahead of him while Broxton and Billingsly can battle it out to unseat Mr. Toothpick. Kemp and Kershaw stand little to no chance while Kuo can become Guo for a rough, but much more doable path into the coveted 26 man roster. Ethier and Elbert look to face the comparatively slackest competition in the form of Mr. Erskine. Keep a weathered eye open for Miller to leap back into contention to further crowd the M's and we'll all be watching to see if three years is enough for Furcal to unseat Furillo. Probably not.

Who needs pennants?

2006-12-05 03:50:22
25.   Sam DC
"pen to debate, with some exceptions" -- so I guess you'll not be hearing my appeal on behalf of Don Aase?
2006-12-05 03:51:25
26.   Sam DC
Grrr . . . "o"

Anyhow, speaking of appeals, sad there's no room on the list for William Brennan.

2006-12-05 03:59:08
27.   gibsonhobbs88
4 - Gagne for a 2+ year span with his 84 consecutive saves was a pretty impressive feat and Gibby's 88 season and historic game 1 HR should also warrant consideration for the G's. For the J's, I would also like to enter "Sweet Lou" Johnson whose Game 7 HR in the 65 series gave Koufax the only run he needed though the Dodgers added an additional run for a 2-0 victory. Also Jay Johnstone for his contributions to the 81 WS championship club. Otherwise, I have no quarrel regarding most of the other letters in the alphabet. V is somewhat debateable in that Fernando opened up the Latino market in LA with his success. I wonder how much Jon pondered Vance v. Valenzuela? I have insomnia tonight, so this is a good topic.
2006-12-05 04:37:49
28.   Sam DC
I learned in the Post this morning that Reba McEntire's husband is named Narvel Blackstock.

Any room for him him in here?

2006-12-05 05:16:54
29.   Steve in Rochester
Great list, I would only have one exception and I bet it's a common one. I was pretty young when Pedro Guerrero left the Dodgers, so I don't remember him too much. One thing I can remember is the excitement Eric Gagne provided every Dodger fan with from 2002-2004. I'm hard pressed to think of a Dodger who was more dominant in his time.
2006-12-05 05:43:31
30.   Steve in Rochester
29

aside from Koufax that is.

p.s. I told a co-worker about my Gagne over Guerrero take and sparked a pretty heated debate. He refused to accept Gagne's lack of longevity and insisted that Guerrero's sustained production is more impressive. To me, you can't ignore the level of excitement Gagne brought to Dodger fans in that period of time. During his stretch, I could only listen to the internet broadcasts, but Gagne made me feel like I HAD to listen to every game, and he delivered EVERY time. Perhaps you have to be a Dodger fan (this guy's a Yankee fan) to understand exactly what was going on during that time to truly understand Gagne's effect from '02 to '04 (and for a few games last season even, ha).

2006-12-05 06:26:55
31.   Bumsrap
This might seem strange but perhaps there should be a tie between Robinson and Reese-it is hard to imagine Robinson enduring what he had to endure without Reese having his back and generating teammate support.
2006-12-05 06:28:37
32.   Bumsrap
Looks like Ned made it through the first day of winter meetings without screwing up.
2006-12-05 06:45:06
33.   derrelthomas
I want to thank all the little people who made this possible...
2006-12-05 07:06:08
34.   LAT
Latest from Rosenthal:

Quick hits from the winter meetings:

As of late Monday night, the Orioles had made the best offer to Luis Gonzalez, but the Dodgers remained a possibility for the free-agent outfielder, major-league sources told FOXSports.com.
Gonzalez, 39, would prefer to stay in the N.L. West, and his representatives were scheduled to meet with the Dodgers at 11 a.m. Tuesday. In the end, Gonzalez is expected to receive a one-year deal with an option for 2008.

If Gonzalez signs with the Dodgers, it almost certainly would mean the end of the team's trade discussions involving Red Sox left fielder Manny Ramirez.

The Red Sox told one club on Monday that they have received a legitimate offer for Ramirez, and that it revolves around "young pitching."

If that's true, the Dodgers or Angels would be the Sox's most likely trade partners. The Mariners, another team that has spoken with the Sox, are not deep in young pitching.

The Dodgers view Ramirez as a "longshot" even though owner Frank McCourt, a Boston native, is believed to be pushing for a deal.

The only way the Angels will get serious about Ramirez, sources say, is if owner Arte Moreno demands they get involved.

2006-12-05 07:09:09
35.   Andrew Shimmin
But the Nats/Jints/Sox deal that Sam recklessly injected into the conversation last night revolved around young pitching. It must have been true!
2006-12-05 07:19:09
36.   Terry A
Reckless three-team rumor part deux:

http://tinyurl.com/w2jel

Late yesterday afternoon, a rumor floated through the hotel that the Sox, Dodgers and Houston Astros were working on a complicated deal that would have sent Ramirez to L.A., Brad Penny to Houston and Loney and Morgan Ensberg to the Sox. The deal was categorically dismissed by at least two of the teams involved. The San Francisco Giants continue to pursue Ramirez, but aren't thought to have the talent to put together an attractive package.

2006-12-05 07:36:37
37.   Rich Lederer
Gil Hodges?
2006-12-05 07:36:51
38.   gibsonhobbs88
27 - Following up on my earlier comments, even though Dazzy Vance might have better overall numbers, I think Jon has already had major representation for the Brooklyn portion of the Dodger history with the predominance being from the "Boys of Summer" era. He has Campy, Duke, Jackie, Newcombe, Erskine and Furillo. He has Mungo and Zack Wheat as well along with Popeye Zimmer. Fernando was a pioneer for the Dodgers maybe not on the same level as Jackie as he was the the first Mexican citizen to play MLB, but at the time he opened up the fan base in LA and across the nation to the Latin American fans. Fernando is another reason I loved the Dodgers, the organization that had an open mind to think out of the box and step on a limb and take a chance on an unknown 20 year old Mexican pitcher. My vote for Fernando is one that reaches beyond the ballfield performances though I think Fernando's career would still stand on his own very well. Plus that was the era when I was in my 20's and a passionate Dodger fan and Fernando is my contemporary as to age. Fernando in fact is about 6 weeks younger than me.
2006-12-05 07:38:53
39.   gibsonhobbs88
38 I should have meant "not the first Mexican citizen to play" My error!!
2006-12-05 07:41:25
40.   gibsonhobbs88
37 - Another case where we as fans are as guilty as the Hall of Fame - ignoring Gil Hodges. Shame, Shame. Wow! The G's are as deep or deeper than the M's.
2006-12-05 07:44:14
41.   Bumsrap
The Giants and Mariners are rumored to be interested in a three way trade. From MLB News Hot Stove Report.

Manny to Seattle.
Rafael Soriano to Boston.
Sexon to Gaints.

The article failed to mention what the Giants give up. But if Boston is saying they have a legitimate offer for Manny involving young pitchers, could the Giants be offering Cain? Cain for Sexon? I didn't know Sexon was that old.

McCourt better not be pushing for another Boston player, namely Manny just because he still loves Boston. If he is, perhaps he should sell the Dodgers, move back to Boston, and just be a BoSox fan.

2006-12-05 07:52:41
42.   Bob Timmermann
38
Those are all good points about Fernando Valenzuela, but that still can't ignore Dazzy Vance's pitching records. That guy put up some tremendous pitching numbers in an era of insane offense.

Vance also just edges out Koufax for the best ERA+ of a starter in Dodgers history. Vance had a 191 in 1928. Koufax was 190 in 1966.

2006-12-05 07:54:13
43.   Disabled List
In the future, anytime we need to come up with nicknames for Dodger rookies, I suggest we just consult this list for inspiration.

Fats Broxton
Sweetbreads Billingsley
Elmer LaRoche
Cannonball Kuo
Whitey... uh, nevermind
Bobo Abreu
Possum Martin
Dazzy Kershaw

Etc., etc.

2006-12-05 07:56:45
44.   Bob Timmermann
Too bad Phenomenal Smith couldn't edge out Franklin Stubbs for the "S" spot.
2006-12-05 07:56:57
45.   Marty
Any list that has no room for Possum Whitted is fundamentally flawed...
2006-12-05 07:58:46
46.   Disabled List
You know, 43 was mostly a joke, but reading it over, I actually like Cannonball Kuo a lot.

I'm gonna save that one for the official nickname nomination thread.

2006-12-05 08:07:48
47.   Michael Green
Gang--I begin with a G for a reason--I just can't put Guerrero ahead of Garvey for long-term impact. If you're talking immediate impact, for one year, for one swing, Kirk Gibson.
2006-12-05 08:09:30
48.   Vishal
[46] it's not bad, but it'll face some stiff competition from "kuofax", i think.
2006-12-05 08:11:43
49.   Jon Weisman
37 - Yes, you're right.
2006-12-05 08:14:10
50.   Daniel Zappala
Too late now, but Ryan Church is available:

http://tinyurl.com/yjvao3

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-12-05 08:16:03
51.   Daniel Zappala
If the Angels are close to a Figgins+Kotchman for Adam LaRoche deal with the Braves, why don't the Dodgers try Anderson+Loney for LaRoche?
2006-12-05 08:17:14
52.   Jon Weisman
Pedro Guerrero OPS+ as a Dodger regular: 139, 156, 150, 130, 181, 129, 155, 129

Steve Garvey: 130, 133, 133, 121, 137, 130, 126, 111, 101

I'm comfortable with my choice. Guerrero had four seasons better than Garvey's best. You can mitigate that with defense if you want, but it doesn't sway me.

2006-12-05 08:20:33
53.   Andrew Shimmin
Fernando had two years in which he out-SLG'd Juan Pierre's best season.
2006-12-05 08:22:35
54.   Jon Weisman
43 - Sweetbreads Billingsley. Yes.
2006-12-05 08:26:54
55.   BruceR
Maury Wills (at least on an over list).
Ron Perranoski and Reggie Smith on the over list.
And as much as I liked him and w/ all due respect to 33, it seems like there's gotta be another "T" to list with Darell Thomas - but I can't think of one either.
Finally, I know this is a player list, but I still want to nominate Walter Alston and Vin Scully - they're over the others on their letter.
2006-12-05 08:29:01
56.   jujibee
Unless your only including players, I don't see how you could have an all time Dodger list without Vin Scully on there. Don't hall of fame announcers get credited for being part of this organization?
2006-12-05 08:37:23
57.   Jon Weisman
It's just a player list. Vin is in a class by himself, anyway.
2006-12-05 08:38:11
58.   Bob Timmermann
I doubt Vin Scully would consider his contributions to the Dodgers greater than those of Snider or Sutton.

Or a lot of other guys.

Or just about all of them.

2006-12-05 08:41:15
59.   Jon Weisman
I love Reggie Smith, but the difference between him and Snider in a Dodger uniform is so great as to make him not even an also-ran. Same basically goes for Wheat and Perranoski, though I admit I wasn't altogether consistent with the runners-up (or runnerups) that I named.
2006-12-05 08:42:15
60.   Bumsrap
Vin Scully would never want his name on this list. He would appear several times on an all-time announcers list under V, S, and G as in Greatest Dodger of them all.
2006-12-05 08:53:33
61.   dianagramr
25

as Chris Berman might say ...
Don Aase Bad Moon a-Rising

2006-12-05 08:59:59
62.   BruceR
59 I don't disagree at all with that, Jon, and would not have brought up Reggie at all if just Duke was there. But my thought is that putting Reggie and Don Sutton at/near the same level is appropriate.
2006-12-05 09:04:40
63.   Bob Timmermann
An announcer needs players and fans to survive. Fans need players and the announer. Players need the fans and the announcer to survive.

It's my theory of trilateral symbiosis.

"Announcer" symbolizes both a person and the promotion of the team.

2006-12-05 09:05:44
64.   Penarol1916
30. As a Dodger fan, I also think your crazy as well. I loved the Gagne experience, but the fact is, through the '80's, Guerrero was the only Dodger who came to the plate that I did not expect to strike-out every time. On the rare occassions I got to see a Dodger game during that time, I would just hold out hope that somehow this collection of John Shelbys would somehow get on base enought to allow Pedro a chance to get some runs. Watching that man hit was excitement.
2006-12-05 09:10:09
65.   D4P
Fred Underwood?

The Todd: "I'm carrying underwood right now..."

2006-12-05 09:16:44
66.   BlueCrew Bruin
65 Nice. Blog-five!

{holds up hand}

2006-12-05 09:18:07
67.   Bumsrap
CF Peirre/ Repko
RF Kemp/Werth/Ethier
SS Furcal, Martinez
3B Garciapara/Betemit
LF Ethier/Gonzo/Garciapara
2B Kent/Anderson
1B Loney/Saenz
C Martin/Lieberthal

Lowe, Penny, Wolf, Billingsley, Kuo

Saito, Broxton, Miller, Biemel, Sturtz? Tomko, Hendrickson

Start the season like this and adjust at mid season. We are all hoping Kemp will force his way into right field no later than July anyway.

By mid-season the Dodgers could be able to trade Tomko, Hendrickson, Pierre, and Gonzo to get a key player instead of the long-term pieces.

2006-12-05 09:20:40
68.   ToyCannon
Zeile over Zimmer. His one year in 97 probably trumps the combined years of Zimmer of 54-59 since only one year(59) did Zimmer total more then 450 ab's. He was a lousy ballplayer whose only claim to fame is the plate in his head. Zeile was at least good in 97.
2006-12-05 09:20:47
69.   gibsonhobbs88
42 - I don't mean to disparage Dazzy Vance's accomplishments, I even admitted his pitching stats were better. I just wanted to see some more comtemporary players who I rooted for in the 70's and 80's growing up in Dodgerland. I actually have read books about Dodger history and honor the past and the great and colorful players of the Dodgers of yore. You really can't go wrong with either Dazzy or Ferdie, I just wanted to give Fernando his due.
31 - Interesting point regarding Jackie and Pee Wee being tied. It would be symbolic, the ultimate symbol of team unity and the song by Stevie and Paul, "Ebony and Ivory" comes to mind.
2006-12-05 09:22:00
70.   overkill94
Looks like Saito's coming back after all. This is from Rotoworld:

A press conference is scheduled for Wednesday to announce Takashi Saito's new deal with the Dodgers.
Sources told the Kyodo News that Saito, who is expected to remain the Dodgers' closer, will about double the $320,000 he made last season.

It cites the Kyodo News as the source.

2006-12-05 09:25:46
71.   Andrew Shimmin
69- Somebody's been rummaging through Brock's music library. . .
2006-12-05 09:27:52
72.   Steve in Rochester
64
Point taken. It's hard for me because I'm only 24 and even though I've read about as much as I can about Dodgers history, I didn't live through the Guerrero era have the chance to see him play. I'm just going off the basis of Eric Gagne having me on the edge of my seat for 3 full seasons. I cannot imagine any player doing that again, I sure hope it happens.
2006-12-05 09:28:29
73.   ToyCannon
Even though I hear Gonzo's name I would think he'd be leary of signing with us. He just lost his job in Arizona because of the influx of good young outfielders and he would face the same problem here by July. Ethier is already as good if not better and Kemp surely should be better in a short period of time. Why would he sign with us since he was so ticked at the Diamondbacks for moving him out to pasture where he belongs.
2006-12-05 09:30:38
74.   ToyCannon
69
Luckily I haven't eaten breakfeast yet and the gag reflex of hearing "ebony & ivory" associated with my favorite ballplayer of all time didn't cause any damage.
2006-12-05 09:36:04
75.   gibsonhobbs88
74 - LOL!
2006-12-05 09:42:45
76.   ToyCannon
Using the Bill Games Runs Created forumla and the Lahman database I've calculated the top 25 runs created years for the Dodger franchise. This only includes years after 1947, the post integration years.
Snider - 5 times (1,2,5,9,12)
Guerrero - 4 times (20,21,23,24)
Sheffield - 3 times (8,14,17)
Piazza - 2 times (3,16)
J Robinson - 2 times(4,11)
S Green - 2 times (6, 19)
Beltre - 1 time (7)
Campanella - 1 time (18)
T Davis - 1 time (10)
Hodges - 1 time (13)
Mondesi - 1 time (22)
PeeWeeReese - 1 time(25)
R Smith - 1 time (15)
2006-12-05 09:42:50
77.   50 years a Dodger Fan
72 Job, shmob!!! I can think of several million reasons he'd want to play here. Or in San Francisco. Or Washington. Or Baltimore... You get the idea...
2006-12-05 09:44:08
78.   Jacob L
I don't suppose you get any consideration for the second list based on a superior nickname - even though Dazzy is nobody's given name. Just for conversation's sake I offer up . . . S - Stan the Man Unusual (over Franklin Stubbs).
2006-12-05 09:45:07
79.   GoBears
Quick, someone email ToyCannon's 73 to Gonzo. Not to his agent - his agent figures getting paid to sit is even better than getting paid to play and stink. Email directly to Gonzales.
2006-12-05 09:51:24
80.   gibsonhobbs88
For the H's on the list - what about big
Frank Howard? He at least be on the same runner up to Hodges list with Orel and Babe Herman. God, this is fun!!
2006-12-05 09:56:23
81.   ToyCannon
Time to bore everyone with some Bill James Win Share tidbits.

1. The dumped on Juan Pierre had 15, while the departed JD Drew 19. Edmunds 11, Matthews 21, and ManRam 27.
2. Middle Infielder over 20
Jeter 32
Reyes 28
Furcal had 27,
Utely 27
M Young 26
Hanley Ramirez 25
Carlos Guillen 25
Rollins 25
Uggla 23
Orland Hudson 20,(defense defense defense)
And the biggest surprise is Vizquel at 20.

Thought Furcal had a top 10 MVP year.

2006-12-05 09:59:49
82.   tomjedrz
Interesting .. there is no representation on your list from the 1988 World Series champions, which provided two of the most memorable events in recent baseball history.

G - I would have called it a tie between Garvey and Guerrero, or given the nod to Garvey. Gibson is a close 3rd, for the magic of 1988. My wife has an ESPN classic show about that team on DVD, and pulls it out every spring.

H - Disagree - should be Hershiser with the nod over Hodges. As with Gibson - 1988 was magic. The consecutive scoreless streak stands on its own as the greatest pitching achievement in baseball history, and he did it while leading the team to a pennant and series win.

V - You are way wrong here; it has to be Valenzuela. He not only performed admirably, but his charisma and leadership rejuvinated the Dodgers in the aftermath of the strike and as the Garvey/Cey/Baker crowd ended their careers.

2006-12-05 10:03:39
83.   Just Blue
I knew Joe Thurston's defense was bad...
but I didn't know he was sloppy.
2006-12-05 10:05:36
84.   Jon Weisman
82 - I was biased against "moments" and for long-term production. Either way, I simply don't see a case for Garvey at all. Garvey was good - beloved, even - but selecting him over Guerrero would be all about hype.

I did struggle with Valenzuela vs. Vance, but Vance's performance is so great and so underappreciated by today's fans, that I felt I had to point to it. Just because there were magic moments in our lives doesn't mean there weren't any before we came along.

Given the whole storyline of 1988, doesn't it make sense that very few from that team, if any, would be on an all-time team? Though Hershiser would have made it with a different last name, it's not inappropriate that that team is repped only on the Fun Names squad.

2006-12-05 10:10:57
85.   Daniel Zappala
What about Jim Gilliam?
2006-12-05 10:12:45
86.   Jon Weisman
85 - Worthy sentimental contender
2006-12-05 10:17:01
87.   bigcpa
On the topic of names- Pierre must be a throwback player given his most comparables at b-ref:

Carson Bigbee
Whitey Witt
Ducky Holmes
Orator Shaffer
Debs Garms
Patsy Dougherty

Orator Shaffer must have gotten hammered on the message boards for this career line: .282/.326/.367 (1874-1890)

2006-12-05 10:17:28
88.   ToyCannon
Bill James Hitting projections. He loves our kids but history has shown that BJ's projections for kids with < one year of service are rosy.
HR/AVG/OB/Slug/OPS
M Anderson 6/261/320/400/720
Betemit 14/268/331/443/774
Ethier 17//306/355/466/833
Furcal 13/287/356/418/774
Nomar 17/304/364/504/868
Kemp 20/311/365/503/868
Kent 23/286/366/487/853
LaRoche 18/287/373/462/835
Loney 11/305/360/460/820
Martin 9/288/375/425/799
Pierre 2/299/346/373/719
Werth 12/249/336/427/763
2006-12-05 10:19:01
89.   Daniel Zappala
John Tudor is one of my favorites for 'T'.
2006-12-05 10:22:04
90.   Blaine
T is such a common letter, I couldn't believe that Derrel Thomas was the only T worth mentioning, but after looking it up, there is nobody there. Do we have any prospects with a T last name. It is time to bring back Joe Thurston to establish himself as the greatest T ever. It wouldn't take much.
2006-12-05 10:26:01
91.   ToyCannon
If Jon had done a LA Dodger alphabet team then Orel surely gets the nod but since were talking about the Dodger franchise then it surely has to go to Vance.

I would think that most current day Dodger fans only think of the LA version and give barely a thought to the Brooklyn brethren. I've never understood taking the records of the existing franchise when you move a team. The Brooklyn team should stand on its own and LA team should stand on its own. It is strictly PR mumbo jumbo to combine the two franchises. The databases seperate the two and so should we. JMO

2006-12-05 10:27:11
92.   StolenMonkey86
81 - Well, I guess Pierre's defense is good.
2006-12-05 10:27:50
93.   tomjedrz
Jon wrote in #84:

"I was biased against 'moments' and for long-term production."

Clearly. But I question that bias. Baseball isn't just about the numbers. Which would you rather have; a solid (even great) producer give you 10 good years but never win, or a mercurial producer who brings a Series win? I would go for the latter every time, because the Dodgers aren't the Yankees who are going to buy the best team every year. The Dodgers will need some magic to win it all; to ignore that magic is to be missing something.

Later in the same post ...
"Given the whole storyline of 1988, doesn't it make sense that very few from that team, if any, would be on an all-time team?"

Very few, yes. None, no. The Hershiser and Gibson stories are so compelling because of the context. That team had no business winning the division, let alone beating the Mets or the A's. Yet, they did.

Jon also wrote ...
"Garvey was good - beloved, even - but selecting him over Guerrero would be all about hype."

I think Garvey's rep has been tarnished by his post-baseball troubles. He was a leader and the best known of that wonderful group. That said, I can see your point.

2006-12-05 10:29:43
94.   Rob M
Don't know if this was posted in another thread, but Will Carroll is reporting from Orlando that "the Dodgers' offer of LaRoche and Broxton has fallen short" in the ManRam sweepstakes and talks are now shifting to the Angels.

It may be irrational of me, but I'd just assume hang on to almost all of the kids and only deal for veteran starting pitching if we deal for anything at all.

2006-12-05 10:35:33
95.   Jon Weisman
91 - I disagree with your second paragraph, given the direct connections between Brooklyn and Los Angeles and the number of people who bridged that gap. I don't see why geography forces us to forget our roots.

93 - Valid points, but again, you're assuming there was no magic when Dazzy Vance pitched or Gil Hodges swung the bat.

As for Garvey, I could hardly care less about his post-baseball troubles. He was overrated as a player. He was good but not great.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/11057.html

2006-12-05 10:35:55
96.   ToyCannon
93
Garvey's rep has been tarnished but he was a solid run producer for a number of years. Problem is that he's going against one of Jon's favorite players and for a very good reason. Pedro gave us 4 of the top 25 offensive seasons in Post 1947 Dodger history. That is hard to argue with.
2006-12-05 10:38:09
97.   Snowdog
1. Posted by Snowdog
Interesting debate on Guerrero and Garvey.

I'm biased on this one, as Garvey was (is?) my favorite Dodger.

After looking at the OPS+ numbers, I see the statistical case Weisman makes for Guerrero, however, given that, how can one explain the HOF voting?

Steve Garvey
Year Election Votes Pct
1993 BBWAA 176 41.61
1994 BBWAA 166 36.48
1995 BBWAA 196 42.61
1996 BBWAA 175 37.23
1997 BBWAA 167 35.31
1998 BBWAA 195 41.23
1999 BBWAA 150 30.18
2000 BBWAA 160 32.06
2001 BBWAA 176 34.17
2002 BBWAA 134 28.39
2003 BBWAA 138 27.82
2004 BBWAA 123 24.31
2005 BBWAA 106 20.54
2006 BBWAA 135 25.96

Pedro Guerrero
Year Election Votes Pct
1998 BBWAA 6 1.27

What does this dichotomy say about the BBWAA/HOF voting and "statistical understanding/relevance"?

What does this say about the BBWAA HOF?

2006-12-05 10:41:13
98.   ToyCannon
Many reasons I love my wife but while I was at the Laker game last night I came home to find that she had come across the 55 World Series on PBS while perusing the TV and taped it for me. My favorite world series of all time. Just wish they had more footage of my favorite player playing in my favorite series.

If someone wants to argue for Orel or Gibby then the same arguement should be made for Podres cause the 55 series was the most important series in "Dodger" history.

2006-12-05 10:44:37
99.   ToyCannon
97
Cause the HOF voters are idiots.
2006-12-05 10:57:20
100.   blue22
73/79 - It's also reported that Baltimore is offering more money in addition to potentially more stable playing time. Either Ned will have to pony up more money or convince Gonzo that he wants to stay out West.

I know I'm not alone when I think a Loney/Kemp duo could hold down RF, rather than waste $5M on Gonzo. Ned seems a little uneasy about handing over a starting job to Loney right away though, especially in the OF.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-12-05 11:00:04
101.   yankz
I've never heard of Possum Whitted, but I don't see how he doesn't win in a walk.
2006-12-05 11:03:40
102.   Penarol1916
97. Hall of Fame voters have a huge bias against players who peak years were in the 1980's. For offensive players, part of the reason is that their candidacies tended to start in the middle of the huge offensive explosion. Guerrero's numbers don't look so impressive compared to what was happending in 1998 and a couple of years previous. The offensive numbers produced around 1993 when Garvey started on the ballot were still not outrageously worlds apart, and since most of these writers refuse to ever admit that they were wrong, he would always maintain at least a decent share of what he garnered the first time out.
2006-12-05 11:15:27
103.   ToyCannon
102
Looking into how he compared using Vorp
1982 -58.1 6th best in baseball. Robin Young had 103.7, 39 points higher then his closest competitor.
1983 - 58.3 9th best
1985 - 68 6th best
1987 - 60 11th best

I'd say 4 top 11 finishes in the 80's is kind of impressive.

2006-12-05 11:19:55
104.   tomjedrz
ToyCannon wrote in #98:
"If someone wants to argue for Orel or Gibby then the same arguement should be made for Podres cause the 55 series was the most important series in 'Dodger' history."

Podres indeed had a phenomenal '55 Series. Complete game wins in games 3 and 7, had an ERA of 1.00 and was the MVP. Certainly he is a better candidate than Piazza.

Jon wrote in #95:
"... you're assuming there was no magic when Dazzy Vance pitched or Gil Hodges swung the bat."

I just think Hodges moments don't quite stack up with Hershiser. The Dodgers were a great team in his time. 7 Pennants and two Series wins while he was a Dodger. Gil Hodges had a fantastic '59 series, including the game-winning HR in the bottom of the 8th in game 4. If Hodges' last name started with A, B, I, J, L, M, O, T, U or W it would be a no-brainer.

Dazzy Vance was a pretty good pitcher, including 3 pehnomenal seasons, but any of his magic never brought the Dodgers postseason glory. Again, lots of letters he is a cinch, but not V.

Great discussion starter .. thanks!

2006-12-05 11:23:50
105.   Eric Enders
Ordinarily I'd be biased toward the older guys, but put me squarely in the Valenzuela over Vance camp. Vance was a far better pitcher, but in terms of impact on the team's history and on the game of baseball, it's Valenzuela in a landsline.

And although it's close, I've gotta go with my all-time favorite pitcher, Lucille I, over Van Lingle Mungo.

2006-12-05 11:24:58
106.   Eric Enders
105 or landslide.
2006-12-05 11:25:18
107.   ToyCannon
The year Garvey won his MVP in 74 he ranked 17th in Vorp. His teammate the aptly name ToyCannon was better. His other great years were
77-79, let's see how he ranks
77 - 39th
78 - 10th - 4 Dodgers in the top 30
79 - 34th

Davy Lopes was a heck of a player.

2006-12-05 11:26:58
108.   Eric Enders
I can't stand the guy, but Brett Butler probably deserves an honorable mention in the Bs.
2006-12-05 11:35:59
109.   gibsonhobbs88
104 - Another great point for Fernando! Dazzy did his great performances for a moribund second division Dodger club that never sniffed post-season play during his time unless he started his career before the 1920 season. Fernando had immediate impact upon being a starter in the 1981 season. Fernando was a fierce competitor who like to finish what he started, helped himself with the bat and had one of the great socioeconomic impacts on the game.
Count me in the Fernando camp not in a landslide(out of respect to Dazzy Vance's accomplishments) but a victory nonetheless.
2006-12-05 11:43:58
110.   gibsonhobbs88
BTW, Jon, thanks for a great column that sparked a clean and fun debate among us Dodger fans. We may agree to disagree on certain subjects but we all share our love for the Blue.
2006-12-05 11:46:21
111.   gpellamjr
I've heard a few Adam LaRoche rumors around. Why on earth would the Braves want to trade him?? He looks great to me.
2006-12-05 11:47:37
112.   Jonny6
I'm spending way too much time following all of these baseless trade rumors, but during my wasted hours of internet surfing the most dominant theme for the MLB off-season is that pitching is in high demand and even mediocre performers are extremely valuable assets.

Wouldn't it make sense to just forget this Ramirez circus and focus on signing Schmidt? With that done, we would have six legitimate starters signed plus Hendrickson and Tomko. In this market, there has got to be some value in dealing Hendrickson and Tomko. If you add Penny into the mix, than the options skyrocket (but that would leave us with two somewhat unproven youngsters in the starting rotation).

I would love to see us cut the gristle off our roster steak by unloading Hendrickson and Tomko, especially if we could get something valuable in return. Who's available out their on the mid to small market teams that really need pitching but have some position players available to deal?

2006-12-05 11:51:32
113.   robohobo
How 'bout Mike Scioscia for honorable mention at "S"? Surely if he were another letter he would be on the list? He was as integral a part of the '88 team as anyone. His home run against the Mets was as important as Gibson's home run. And he was catcher for all of Hershiser's scoreless inning streak.
2006-12-05 11:52:48
114.   Linkmeister
It's a good thing Johnny Vandermeer didn't pitch for the Dodgers.
2006-12-05 11:54:10
115.   dzzrtRatt
111 From ESPN.com (buster olney I think)

"One of the most intriguing position players available this week is Braves first baseman Adam LaRoche, who has been shopped to a number of teams. The Braves believe that Scott Thorman -- who had 16 extra-base hits in 128 at-bats after a late-season recall -- is ready to step in and play first right now. Which would make LaRoche expendable in the right deal."

The Braves are so eager to hand starting jobs to prospects, they would trade a guy who isn't paid that much and is still a few years from arbitration -- which would mean they should be able to get a lot back for him.

2006-12-05 11:55:14
116.   Eric Enders
Random useless fact

Average attendance at MLB games started by Fernando Valenzuela, 1982: 43,312
Average attendance at MLB games not started by Fernando Valenzuela, 1982: 20,766

2006-12-05 11:55:45
117.   Jon Weisman
Saito has been signed. New post up top - feel free to continue discussing the Alphabet Team here, though.
2006-12-05 11:58:15
118.   robohobo
112. How about the Rockies? Maybe we could sell Tomko or Hendy as middle relievers and pick up a good young player like Clint Barmes to back up Furcal/Kent on the infield. That's right GM O'Dowd, you can have Ramon Martinez as well.
2006-12-05 11:58:51
119.   Eric Enders
111 I have the feeling that LaRoche (the elder) played way over his head this year, so maybe the Braves feel the same way. There is not much in his past record, major or minor leagues, to suggest this is his true level of ability. I think this past year may have been his 1986 Steve Sax season. So there's a good chance his value will never be higher than it is right now.
2006-12-05 11:59:08
120.   Jon Weisman
110 - Glad you're having fun with it.
2006-12-05 11:59:47
121.   Jon Weisman
118 - Tomko is still trying to unseat Derrel Thomas ...
2006-12-05 12:00:15
122.   regfairfield
104 Podres was mediocre in every year but 1955 and 1960. Piazza, on the other hand was one of the best, if not the best player in baseball from 1993 to 1997. Podres has the moment, but Piazza had arguably the greatest four year run of any Dodger not named Koufax.
2006-12-05 12:01:27
123.   Greg Brock
71 LOL

Indeed.

2006-12-05 12:02:15
124.   Scanman33
As far as the T's go, what about Danny Taylor, who started in the Dodger OF from '32-'35? He had a career OBP of .374, including a single-season best .396 for the '34 club.

With all due respect to Derrel Thomas of course...and apologies to Brett Tomko, Derek Thompson and Kevin Tapani.

P.S. Yes, I had to look up Danny Taylor

2006-12-05 12:04:49
125.   jdm025
112
I agree with your opinion on a possible Schmidt signing. I think that we should probably keep one of the two in case the injury bug hits again (Penny, Kuo, and Wolf have missed significant time in the past 18 months).

The only problem is that I can't think of anything we really need that C+ guys like Hendrickson and Tomko could get us. Our bench is pretty set with Saenz, Repko, and Martinez with Loney/Ethier/Kemp/LaRoche/Werth waiting in the wings. Bullpen? Maybe, but Saito is about to sign, Brazoban is on the way back. We could get a long Reliever, but Hendrickson was great out of the bullpen last year. We just can't get our real need (big bat) with just Tomko.

2006-12-05 12:32:29
126.   tomjedrz
regfairfield wrote in #104:
"Podres was mediocre in every year but 1955 and 1960. Piazza, on the other hand was one of the best, if not the best player in baseball from 1993 to 1997. Podres has the moment, but Piazza had arguably the greatest four year run of any Dodger not named Koufax."

Agreed, but Piazza had no lasting impact on the team.

Conventional wisdom is that the 1998 Piazza trade was the worst trade in Dodgers history, and among the worst in baseball history. However, 1997 was the best year of his career; from 98 on there has been a steady decline.
http://www.dodgerblues.com/content/features_trades.html#piazza
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/piazzmi01.shtml

As an aside .. my wife and her best friend used to like to get seats down the third base line for the view when he was at bat.

2006-12-05 13:16:50
127.   derrelthomas
Re: 124 - but I invented the "high-five".
2006-12-05 13:46:49
128.   gcrl
127

i thought that was glenn burke

2006-12-05 22:31:38
129.   popup
My all time favorite name is Sandy Vance. I don't think I ever saw him pitch, but I remember thinking that a Dodger pitcher with a name like that would be among the greatest pitchers in baseball history. He did pitch a few good games for the Dodgers as I recall, but alas he never lived up to his great name.

Stan from Tacoma

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