Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Schmidt to the Dodgers?
Lieberthal Signing Official
2006-12-06 10:31
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

From MLB.com:

The Dodgers apparently are on the verge of acquiring the power pitcher they've coveted, as free-agent right-hander Jason Schmidt on Wednesday told former teammates he accepted a three-year, $47 million offer to pitch in Los Angeles.

In acquiring Schmidt, Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti would succeed in a key step of his offseason Plan B - accumulating surplus starting pitching that not only improves his starting rotation, but could lead to the culmination of Plan A, a power hitter.

The club would not confirm the deal, which would be contingent on Schmidt passing a physical exam. Schmidt's physical condition is no secret to the Dodgers, who recently hired his trainer with the Giants, Stan Conte. Colletti also has familiarity with Schmidt, having helped acquire him as the Giants' assistant general manager.

A Schmidt signing would enable the Dodgers to trade from the following surplus of starting pitchers:

1) Derek Lowe
2) Brad Penny
3) Chad Billinglsey
4) Hong-Chih Kuo
5) Mark Hendrickson
6) Brett Tomko
7) Eric Stults
8) D.J. Houlton
and other minor leaguers

Schmidt and Randy Wolf can't be traded this offseason.

Penny will be the focus of trade rumors as they come, but I can't help thinking that Hendrickson and Tomko also have value to other teams that need back-end starting pitching more than the Dodgers do now.

* * *

Schmidt is a talented pitcher, but he is surely expensive - that projected salary is almost twice what Derek Lowe makes - and does not come without risk. Turning 34 in January with nearly 2,000 career innings, Schmidt in 2006 saw his strikeout rate drop to its lowest point since 2000.

But Schmidt is still above-average through and through, and might well help form a perfect bridge between the Dodgers' veteran starters and the up-and-comers like Billingsley, Kuo, Scott Elbert and Clayton Kershaw.

The Dodgers should look to have six starting pitchers available to guide them through the long season - especially, as others have pointed out, as insurance against injuries or overwork for Billingsley and Kuo - but one of those six can be a veteran mediocrity like Tomko or Hendrickson. That's what a swingman/long reliever is for. If Schmidt falls into place, the team can afford to trade Penny.

Of course, if the Dodgers can get value for someone besides Penny, so much the better, but I'll confess to being among the group that would hate to see the Dodgers trade Billingsley or Kuo before we see what these young pitchers can really do in a Los Angeles uniform.

* * *

Update: The Dodgers officially announced the signing of 34-year-old local boy Mike Lieberthal to a one-year contract with a club option for 2008 to back up Russell Martin. His best days are behind him, but he's a nice pickup for the backup role and figures to be much more content than Toby Hall, who will be jettisoned somehow.

Comments (384)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-12-06 10:35:36
1.   goblue1
Great move Ned. Assuming thats true.
2006-12-06 10:38:57
2.   NPB
As much as I'll miss Maddux, this is money better spent. Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Billingsley/Kuo, and Wolf. Now that's a rotation. And I bet we can get some offensive muscle for Penny in a trade.
2006-12-06 10:38:57
3.   Eric Enders
Two great things about the Schmidt signing:

1. It's only for three years. I really like Ned's philosophy with Furcal and Schmidt of overpaying a bit to get them to sign shorter contracts.

2. It probably eliminates a Manny transaction, which means all the kids stay here.

2006-12-06 10:39:18
4.   Another Tom
ESPN Deportes is reporting that Manny to the Dodgers for Penny and a prospect could happen by the end of the day. Of course, that is contrary to what everyone else is reporting about Manny to LA being dead. However, signing Schmidt certainly frees up Ned to move Penny.
2006-12-06 10:40:46
5.   GoBears
I really hope that the Gonazales thing is wrong. If Colletti now trades Penny for a big bat, then the only kid who'll get playing time is Martin. Loney will wait for Nomar to go down, and Ethier/Kemp will wait for Gonzales to get hurt. Pierre never gets hurt - which would be fine if his backups weren't better players.
2006-12-06 10:40:54
6.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I think Ned should walk away from the table now.
2006-12-06 10:41:02
7.   Big Game
I love this signing.
2006-12-06 10:41:11
8.   Jesse
cool deal. what about kuo?
2006-12-06 10:41:43
9.   Sam DC
Thanks Bob, wrong Juan and not necessarily gone.

Yes, Penarol, I do sometimes read the Sports Bog -- that guy is very funny and has great feel for the medium. (Called a "bog" because the author once told Raplh Friedgen he wrote a blog and Friedgen asked "What's a bog?")

The water wars were hilarious. As was tracking down that DC U player's appearance on GUTS.

2006-12-06 10:42:19
10.   blue22
5 - Can't imagine there's room for both a Penny-for-OFer trade and a Gonzo signing. Schmidt's $16M really puts a hurtin' on the budget already.
2006-12-06 10:43:22
11.   Eric Enders
"ESPN Deportes is reporting that Manny to the Dodgers for Penny and a prospect could happen by the end of the day."

If it's Penny and Ethier, I would be delighted. Penny and Broxton would be OK. Penny and Loney would be painful, but acceptable.

Penny and anyone else, I'm leading the mutiny.

2006-12-06 10:43:31
12.   AlmostGagne
I'm not particulary thrilled with this signing. At the start of the season Schmidt will be 34 years old. So over $15 mil per season is allocated to a pitcher age 34, 35, and 36.
Of course, if adding Schmidt allows us to trade Penny for a middle of the line-up bat, then it's different. As it stands I just don't see it as a wise investment.
2006-12-06 10:44:00
13.   GoBears
Anyone have any idea what the Schmidt and prospective Gonzales deals would do to the payroll.
2006-12-06 10:45:00
14.   Another Tom
10 - Assuming the "budget" is still the budget. It seems everyone has 3 weeks of allowance and is heading straight for the arcade.

11 - It was actually Manny and 2 prospects. My guess was Penny, Broxton and Loney because Boston is hell-bent on getting a closer.

2006-12-06 10:46:15
15.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I wonder how hard Grittle is pushing for the acquisition of Man-Ram.
2006-12-06 10:46:22
16.   blue22
13 - Jon has $98.8 on the sidebar, but you can take a net $2M away based on the Hall-for-Lieberthal swap.

$16M for Schmidt and $5M for Gonzo brings it to a cool $118M!

2006-12-06 10:46:39
17.   Penarol1916
9. I was about to ask you about the water wars stuff and if you followed it on DC 101. Those posts on tracking down the United Keeper were amazing. I only wish I cared even remotely about the Redskins and Wizards, then that place would easily be my second favorite blog on the web.

By the way, did the Giants offer Schmidt arbitration?

2006-12-06 10:47:26
18.   GoBears
12. It's funny that we can be excited that, if I may quote 12, "adding Schmidt allows us to trade Penny" when they're both power pitchers, and the one we'd be trading is much younger and much cheaper. I agree that Schmidt is better right now, but, especially given how fragile he is, I'll be surprised if he's better for 3 years.

And I say this despite being excited about getting him.

2006-12-06 10:47:47
19.   Greg Brock
I really like Loney, but Penny and Loney for Manny would be alright in my book.

Did McCourt find some dubloons off Catalina or something?

2006-12-06 10:48:10
20.   Johnson
12 How old was Kevin Brown when we gave him his big contract? What was that, 6 years at $15M per or something? For some reason I get the feeling that the total dollar value was over $100M - 7 years, maybe? And payrolls were lower then.
2006-12-06 10:48:38
21.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
16 - $118MM sounds reasonable, considering the offseason salary inflation.
2006-12-06 10:48:59
22.   blue22
20 - He was 34 I think. It was 7/$105M ($15M per).
2006-12-06 10:49:43
23.   goblue1
Let the league know Penny is avail, and walk away from the table.

Gonzo.... im 50:50 on.

Like to see the team younger not older.
Besides, isnt he right in the Giants wheelhouse? Old, defensive liability.
Maybe he is too young, actually.

2006-12-06 10:49:54
24.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
19 - The MLBAM check arrived.
2006-12-06 10:50:14
25.   jdm025
WOO HOO!!!!!!!!

We now have at what everyone wants. When Zito is gone, Coletti can really work the lines.

2006-12-06 10:50:43
26.   Greg Brock
Penny for Dunn.

Please?

Pretty please?

2006-12-06 10:51:02
27.   blue22
21 - A Manny trade would be a net $12M added to the payroll (assuming Penny goes, and Boston doesn't send any salary). Of course, Gonzo probably doesn't sign then, so it ends up being a net $7M increase.

Penny/Loney/Broxton + $7M for Manny? Still not sure about that, but it'd help if Manny didn't demand his option years be exercised.

2006-12-06 10:51:19
28.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
No Gonzo, unless he understands he's now a platoon player - and is paid as such.
2006-12-06 10:51:29
29.   GoBears
16 I was going to guess $120M. To be fair to DePodesta, that can't be forgotten when we do our GM comparisons. But to be fair to Colletti, it also takes the sting out of the Pierre contract. There'll still be the sting of watching him stink for 800 games, but at least the contract hasn't cost the team a chance at an ace.

Anyone else get the idea that one reason Colletti seems to be setting up a scenario where he can trade Penny is that he wants all DePodesta acquisitions gone? This would leave only Kent and Lowe, right? And Saenz, but Colletti had to re-sign him.

2006-12-06 10:52:05
30.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
it'd help if Manny didn't demand his option years be exercised.
IIRC, Man-Ram is demanding the option be picked up if he's traded.
2006-12-06 10:53:12
31.   blue22
30 - That's not what's been going around in the last few days. Manny just wants out, apparently.
2006-12-06 10:54:41
32.   Disabled List
I'm ready to punt on Manny. Ned should go after Dunn.
2006-12-06 10:55:11
33.   jdm025
16
I think that insurance will also pick up a bit on the Mueller contract, but that seems negligible (maybe 2-3 mil)
2006-12-06 10:56:58
34.   Marty
Mr. Schmidt, please see this doctor for your physical. He's a good man, and thorough.
2006-12-06 10:58:55
35.   Johnson
22 Thanks. So Brown got basically the same average salary, but for 4 more years (in a cheaper market) at the same age. Not that I'm defending the Brown deal, but the reported Schmidt deal doesn't look so bad in comparison. I'd much rather pay $16M per for the age 34-36 seasons of a power pitcher than $15M per for the age 34-40 seasons of another. (Though looking at BP, it looks like Brown was quite a bit more dominant than Schmidt, putting up 130 PRAR over his 5 seasons before the deal in comparison to Schmidt's 88.)
2006-12-06 11:01:45
36.   Eric Enders
Not sure if it's been updated but the ESPNDeportes article from last night says Manny is demanding that one of his two option years be picked up if he's traded.
2006-12-06 11:02:30
37.   LA Native
I agree with going after someone like a Dunn now. Forget about Gonzo. Manny would be nice if we don't have to give up too much, but I wonder if the payroll can handle that and don't think Boston will settle for much less than Broxton, Penny, and maybe Loney, which is too much. Also, Manny is really a DH and a huge liability in the field.

Dunn can play first as well, so Loney would be expendable (he is not now, b/c Nomar is too injury prone). I could see Loney and Penny for Dunn (and maybe something else from Cincy, especially if we toss in someone like a Tomko). Anyone have a solid idea on Dunn's defense at 1st (and in left for that matter)? This makes more budget sense than a Manny deal.

2006-12-06 11:03:31
38.   still bevens
Mr. Schmidt, let me be the first to welcome your doughboy face and silly goatee to Los Angeles. I respect you as a player, but perhaps you can talk to Mr. Kent about facial hair alternatives.
2006-12-06 11:03:53
39.   blue22
I really like Dunn, but somehow I don't think he fits into the new "Go-Go Dodgers" strategy now.
2006-12-06 11:05:26
40.   KG16
Doesn't the Pierre signing and going after Manny/Dunn pretty much block all but one of the kids in the outfield? So we basically need to choose between Ethier and Kemp this off season? Anyone else worried by that idea?
2006-12-06 11:06:16
41.   BlueCrew
37. i think penny AND loney for dunn is too much
2006-12-06 11:06:46
42.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
40 - Like I said, stop now, Ned.
2006-12-06 11:07:46
43.   Greg Brock
34 Nice. That didn't go unnoticed.

A good man. And thorough.

2006-12-06 11:08:26
44.   jdm025
Just say not to Gonzo. Wait it out and find someone who needs some pitching and we may just pay less for a big bat than a net increase of $7 mil.

Example (though I hope we look elsewhere)
Penny for Burrell:

Net salary gain: less than $2 mil.

NO PROSPECTS TRADED

2006-12-06 11:08:39
45.   LA Native
41

I agree. I think they need to add someone else. If we add a Tomko or Hendrickson that someone else should be even better.

2006-12-06 11:09:06
46.   Marty
I live for Lebowski references...
2006-12-06 11:10:40
47.   goblue1
I don't think theres really any big push for Dunn or Manny by the organization at this point.
I suspect we pick up Gonzo to share time in the OF and run what we got.
Maybe add a 'pen arm.
By mid year we will see which of Kemp, Ethier and Loney share the OF with Pierre-gate.
Shame to see Loney play in the OF- such a nice glove at 1B.
2006-12-06 11:11:30
48.   Gagne55
41 Especially since Loney is better than Dunn. Homeruns ain't everything.
2006-12-06 11:12:01
49.   Dane Bramage
What impact could this have on the possible re-signing of Gagne? Is it no longer a priority?
2006-12-06 11:12:33
50.   Eric Enders
48 In our wildest fantasies maybe that's true.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-12-06 11:12:37
51.   Jacob L
Having our prospects blocked by Pierre worries me a great deal. Prospects blocked by Dunn, maybe a litte. Having prospects blocked by Manny doesn't worry me at all. He's really good at baseball.
2006-12-06 11:13:47
52.   Sam DC
An Eric Stults sighting!
2006-12-06 11:14:34
53.   ToyCannon
37
According to Dewan, Dunn would be considered the worse LF in baseball if Manny was a DH. I don't think Ned has any interest in Dunn but if we acquired him, Ned would have acquired two players (Pierre/Dunn) with the largest discrepancy in skills in baseball.
2006-12-06 11:14:47
54.   Greg Brock
I love Loney, but he's not better than Adam Dunn. Homers aint everything, but Slugging, OBP, walks, doubles, homers, P/Pa go a long way.
2006-12-06 11:14:48
55.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Lineup of:
Furcal - SS
Martin - C
Garciaparra - 1B
Kent - 2B
Ethier - LF
Loney - RF
Betemit - 3B
Pierre - CF (but he'll be leadoff - ugh)

Honestly, I'm underwhelmed. It's a lineup more solid than scary. I can see the upside of going for Pat the Bat.

2006-12-06 11:14:53
56.   Gagne55
Though, I'm for no more transactions. The addition of Schmidt makes this clearly the best team in the division. Somebody is going to get hurt meaning that trading a SP is not necessary. Kuo can be stored in AAA until somebody goes down. And, I don't consider Tomko, Stultz or Hendrickson to be starting options anyway at this point.
2006-12-06 11:17:27
57.   DodgerJoe
I know everyone is talking about Penny for Manny. But does Boston really need another starter (Shilling, Matsuzaka, Beckett, Wakefield, Papelbon, Lester)?

I am more in tune with Penny for Dunn.

2006-12-06 11:17:59
58.   LA Native
49

I'd imagine Gagne is not a priority now for both budget reasons and the fact that we don't need as deep a bullpen with Maddux gone and Schmidt in. I'd still like to see him back, but doubt it will happen. Could change if Broxton is traded, which I hope we don't do that at this point.

I still think we desperately need a power hitter. Don't think both Eithier and Loney will survive the off-season with the Dodgers as they play power positions with little power. I like them both, but we are getting to the point of either giving them a position to play or trading them. We can't keep all of these prospects and not give them a place to play forever.

2006-12-06 11:19:36
59.   Gagne55
Loney's rate stats in the majors last year were better than Dunn's. He also hit .380 at AAA. He also is a much better fielder and a better baserunner than Dunn.
2006-12-06 11:19:59
60.   Jon Weisman
Lieberthal signing is official. Update to come.
2006-12-06 11:20:12
61.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I wouldn't mind Dunn.
2006-12-06 11:20:19
62.   ToyCannon
44
How do you figure. Penny makes 8 Mill and it was my understanding that Burrel will make 13Mill in 2007. Source is
http://tinyurl.com/uh3x6
2006-12-06 11:20:49
63.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
60 - A solid backup. Good signing, and with a hometown discount, I believe?
2006-12-06 11:21:26
64.   Greg Brock
Jayson Stark just posted that the Dodgers are still in on Mulder. If we're going for the dreaded nine-man rotation, it makes sense.

Hot Stove is crazy.

2006-12-06 11:21:31
65.   LA Native
59

No argument from me, only that we desperately need power. Dunn's defense does worry me though.

2006-12-06 11:23:19
66.   goblue1
Loney is great, but you should be thinking Mark Grace (best case, and heck- he aint bad at all!).
No indication of > 20HR power, at any level.
Looks like a solid pro though.
2006-12-06 11:25:24
67.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
66 - So, Loney's long-term future is a gig as a mediocre color man on the telecasts for a mediocre team?
2006-12-06 11:26:58
68.   jdm025
62
Oops. I was looking at his '06 salary (9.75 mil) on ESPN and not his '07 salary. The point is still that I would rather have Burrell and one of the kids in the rotation than Gonzo and Penny which would still end up being a cost savings (15 mil for Penny and Gonzo over Burrell's 13 mil plus the $400 for Kuo and/or Elbert)
2006-12-06 11:29:22
69.   Gagne55
I think he has Tony Gwynn upside. He might not hit 20 homers, but I think he'll be a batting champ and gold glove one day. Still, I'm probably overrating him. The plexiglass priciple might hit him hard.
2006-12-06 11:29:36
70.   goblue1
66
Obviously, you're not a golfer.
2006-12-06 11:29:37
71.   jdm025
66
I see Loney as the perfect combination of Grace and JT Snow. I read that some scouts would consider him as the best defensive 1st baseman in the NL if he played regularly. I would take that in a heartbeat and try to find some more power at another position.
2006-12-06 11:30:30
72.   robohobo
Ned should wait until later in the season to talk trades. We clearly have a competitive team in the NL West. That way we can wait and see just what our young players have and which of our pitchers will be durable (we may need all of them). Also, other players will be available that are not available now. Every team has a chance at this time (except the Pirates).
2006-12-06 11:31:08
73.   goblue1
71

agree.

thats why i think/wish/hope were done for the winter.

2006-12-06 11:31:32
74.   Jacob L
I would say that the balance of Ned's off-season right now is positive, with only the Pierre signing a major drag. I fear, though, that it could get ugly from this point.

I'm hugely against signing Luis Gonzalez. Are we sure we're not talking about the other Luis Gonzalez as a backup infielder? Ned loves backup infielders!

And with the so-called surplus of pitching from which to deal, I'm worried about Billz and Kuo. I'm fine with Penny being traded for quality (Manny), but Ned shown a prodigious talent in not getting fair return on trades.

Allowing that the Dodgers have to trade some pieces, I think they'd be best off waiting until much later in the offseason, when teams start getting desperate, and Hendricksons, Tomkos, and the like start looking good. In other words, I'm hoping for hot stove beer goggles.

2006-12-06 11:32:24
75.   GoBears
Yeah, I guess that one of our star prospects would have to go with Penny to land that mythical big bat.

Which would just show that Sheehan was right about Colletti - that he sees prospects as chits. The team might improve in the short run, and in the long run, well, as Keynes said, "in the long run we are all dead."

2006-12-06 11:32:32
76.   ToyCannon
Never a big fan of players who can only do one thing. Dunn can hit home runs. Can't field, can't run. His vaunted OBP was only 365 last year, not exactly stud worthy given how hopeless he is once he gets on base. He walks alot but has to since his average is terrible. He's played in one of the best hitting parks in the NL for homeruns with a park effect of 129 in 2007 and 119 for the last 3 years. Even higher for a LHH.

The best comp I've been seeing for Loney is Adrian Gonzalez. He picked up 16 win shares in 2006. Dunn had 18. Not that far off base to say that Loney if not as good as Dunn certainly has the ability to make it close and within several years could easily be winning the contest.

2006-12-06 11:34:52
77.   Sam DC
We have some smart baseball writers at the Post:

Washington, D.C.: I saw that the O's have picked up a bunch of bull pen pitchers. Are these guys any good....we sure paid a lot from them.

Dave Sheinin: The real question isn't whether they are good or not -- Danys Baez, Jamie Walker and Chad Bradford are all very serviceable, talented pitchers. The question should be: Will they all be effective for three years? The answer, more than likely, is no. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to name many non-closers who have strung together three consecutive effective seasons as relievers. In other words, relievers are the most inconsistent group of players in baseball. And I think it is unwise to go around handing out three-year contracts to them.

2006-12-06 11:35:49
78.   still bevens
76 Gonzales also started showing some power this year. Remember Loney is only, what, 22?
2006-12-06 11:36:30
79.   Gagne55
72 Agreed. Unless Bonds has interest in a discount deal in LA, just go with what you got. The current 25 man as of now:
P:
Lowe, Schmidt, Penny, Billingsley, Wolf, Hendrickson, Tomko, Dessens, Broxton, Beimel, Saito, Kuo (AAA?)
C:
Martin, Leiberthal
IF:
Nomar, Kent, Loney, Furcal, Betemit, Saenz, Martinez
OF:
Ethier, Pierre, Anderson, Werth, Repko(AAA?)
2006-12-06 11:38:27
80.   goblue1
79

Werth? .... Can I interest you in a discount on a bridge? Great price, really.

2006-12-06 11:38:30
81.   Andrew Shimmin
Every time somebody compares Loney to J.T. Snow, an angel gets its wings put through a woodchipper.
2006-12-06 11:38:40
82.   ToyCannon
Lieberthal lifetime 275/338/450

Compared to Hall of 265/301/384

Talk about improvement even though Hall did do the job in the limited at bats Grady gave him.

2006-12-06 11:38:59
83.   jdm025
74
I also think that some patience would be prudent at this point. I don't think that Bills is going anywhere, and I hope that Hendrickson's bullpen numbers from last year could make him very useful as our #6 starter and middle relief. This would leave Tomko and Penny as the odd men out.

I think that once Zito signs, Penny becomes very desirable to a club like the Cardinals, but what do we get from them? Makes me wonder if Coletti has already heard from some other teams about contingency plans for SPs.

2006-12-06 11:40:08
84.   GoBears
I see Loney as the perfect combination of Grace and JT Snow.

I know the conventional wisdom on JT Snow is that he was a defensive wizard. But I seem to recall some metrics showing that he was actually below average. Now, I also know that defensive measures are iffy at best, but what is the current verdict on Jack's boy? Was he as good as he "looked" or did he have to make all those dives because he had no lateral movement? Anyone? Bueller?

2006-12-06 11:40:42
85.   Eric Enders
59 "Loney's rate stats in the majors last year were better than Dunn's. He also hit .380 at AAA. He also is a much better fielder and a better baserunner than Dunn."

Let's compare oranges to oranges, though. Dunn's career minor league line was .304/.425/.525 at sea level. Loney's is .298/.366/.436, with the best year coming at altitude.

Dunn's career major league line is .245/.380/.513 for an .893 OPS. Loney's, coming with an extreme sample size caveat and Coors Field caveat, is .284/.342/.559/.901 -- not much different. Dunn has proven this is his real level of ability. Loney has not.

You could say Loney's a better fielder at first base, which would be true, but the position we have open is outfield. Adam Dunn has played the outfield before. James Loney hasn't. They might both suck out there. We don't really know at this point.

A better baserunner than Dunn? Setting aside the fact that we're nuts if we sign guys based on their baserunning, I present their career baserunning records in pro ball:

Dunn: 108 SB, 37 CS
Loney: 30 SB, 22 CS

Neither really runs a lot, but last year Loney stole bases at a 67 percent clip and Dunn at 100 percent.

There is no legitimate way to argue that James Loney, right now, is a better player than Adam Dunn. None. And I say this as someone who likes Loney a lot and hopes we keep him for a long time.

2006-12-06 11:40:43
86.   ToyCannon
78
Or course I hope Loney is a better baserunner then Adrian. Only Jeff Willingham was a lousier runner with a negative -25 according to BJH 2007.
2006-12-06 11:40:46
87.   jdm025
81
LOL
2006-12-06 11:41:09
88.   Dark Horse
75-While I'm not in favor of trading the prospects in question, I find this locution fascinating: trading one of our "star" prospects for a "mythical" big bat. Our prospects just now are more myths than stars--hence "prospect"--whereas a bat like Ramirez's is about as factual, as star-like as they come.

It's easy to get lost in the shine of potential, is all I'm saying. As someone who, too, prefers the future of Matt Kemp to Adam Dunn's strikeout totals. Even if were Kemp to approach Dunn's power in actuality it'd be beyond my wildest dreams.

2006-12-06 11:43:25
89.   goblue1
JT Snow = Gold glove 1B, no bat = AAA SS.

And an ex- Giant, yucky.
2006-12-06 11:43:25
90.   jdm025
84
My judgment was based solely on his 6 Gold Gloves, but I know that those can exaggerate a fielder's reputation.
2006-12-06 11:45:06
91.   natepurcell
Im not as fascinated with Dunn as I use to be two years ago. He just never took that big step of improvement like i thought he would.
2006-12-06 11:46:39
92.   natepurcell
that said in 91, I would trade Penny for Jenkins+ Yovanni Gallardo and not look back.
2006-12-06 11:48:00
93.   blue22
91 - He regressed mightily last year. It's an overrated stat, but don't you have to hit better than .234 to be considered, you know "good".
2006-12-06 11:48:08
94.   natepurcell
Id also approach Beane with a Penny for Swisher swap. It seems that with losing zito and the health risk of Harden, he might need another decent pitcher.
2006-12-06 11:48:44
95.   ToyCannon
According to Dewan JT had a +11 3 year ranking which put him 9th on the list. He felt that age was catching up to his defense but he seemed to think from the small paragraph he wrote that JT deserved his 6 gold gloves.
2006-12-06 11:49:01
96.   Andrew Shimmin
Dunn has played 160+ games each of the last three years. He's a gamer.
2006-12-06 11:49:26
97.   natepurcell
96

Dsfan probably loves him for his durability :)

2006-12-06 11:49:49
98.   goblue1
96

Yes, he can hurt you daily.

2006-12-06 11:49:49
99.   Marty
Yovanni Gallardo....great name

Yovanni go have lunch?

The possibilities are endless.

2006-12-06 11:51:28
100.   GoBears
90. Right. GGs prove nothing except that the conventional wisdom is what it is. I'm asking what the data say.

I don't really care, but I suspect that JT made a lot of money for being perceived to do one thing well that he might not have done all that well. You know, sort of like our new speed demon in CF. Different skill, same result.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-12-06 11:52:15
101.   goblue1
Dunn, it seems to me, is a meat ball killer.
Seems like he jacks alot of mistakes, but VS a teams closer in the 9th with a runner on 2nd or 3rd youre gonna get a K every time.
2006-12-06 11:52:33
102.   ToyCannon
From 1995 - 2000 with the exception of 96 and 98 JT was a solid offensive player who combined gold glove defense. In 97 he created 34 win shares. 3 more then the highest total JD Drew ever created. I don't understand the ridicule other then the fact he's and ex-angel and ex-giant.
2006-12-06 11:53:46
103.   JoeyP
Hopefully the Schmidt signing is official. At this point, I'd keep Penny too. Maybe trade one of our prospects to the Phillies for Burrell.

Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Kuo, Billingsley is a good enough rotation. Wolf can be our 8mils version of Joe Kennedy.

I'd rather deal a prospect for Burrell, than Penny for Manny basically.

2006-12-06 11:55:42
104.   jdm025
Not that it will happen, but has anyone noticed that Gagne is only asking for $900 K more in base salary than Tomko makes? Why not try to unload him for a spare part and then sign Gagne.

Am I just being sentimental or would this actually make sense? Can we get more for Tomko in potential performance than Gagne?

2006-12-06 11:56:38
105.   GoBears
88 Good catch. The "mythical" part was meant to be sarcastic, as in the dream that we've been chasing for 2 years.

The "star prospect" phrase was just bad writing on my part. I should have said "top prospect" to indicate where these guys stand relative to other prospects, not relative to major leaguers.

I appreciate the correction. And no, that is NOT sarcasm.

2006-12-06 11:57:02
106.   ToyCannon
Nate, why does Jenkins get such little respect? I've rarely seen him play, but his stat's sure look good. According to everything I read up on him he seems to a solid power guy, solid obp, average baserunner, above average rf, and he has a decent contract in todays world.
2006-12-06 11:57:06
107.   Jon Weisman
104 - I'm not sure what to believe regarding Gagne's salary demands at this point.
2006-12-06 11:57:59
108.   Jon Weisman
107 - But yeah, if someone will take Tomko, I'd almost rather risk paying Gagne to be on the DL.
2006-12-06 11:58:13
109.   still bevens
104 Well for starters, all of Tomko's body parts work properly, so he has that going for him...
2006-12-06 11:59:00
110.   goblue1
109

Except his head.

2006-12-06 11:59:05
111.   Sons of Steve Garvey
Dunn and Burrell are both butchers in the field. Like Manny Ramirez, they would make a lot more sense for an AL team that can DH at least half the time. Given the paucity of starting pitching on the market, I'd say Penny for either Dunn or Burrell would be more than fair (probably too fair from our perspective). Manny is in a different class of hitter and would cost more than just Penny obviously. If our budget could take it, I might be willing to trade Penny, Ethier or (ouch) Broxton, and a second-level prospect for Manny, if we could then turn around and re-sign Gagne, whom I'd really love to keep. But if the Red Sox want more than that, I'd pass.

Personally, I'd be happy to just stand pat at this point and go with an Ethier/Pierre/Loney/Kemp OF for now and re-evaluate things at the trade deadline if the kids don't step up. I absolutely, positively do not want Luis Gonzalez - I think Ethier, Loney and Kemp are ALL going to outperform him in 2006.

2006-12-06 11:59:30
112.   ToyCannon
103
I agree that we should keep Penny. I like that rotation from top to bottom with some great depth held in reserve. Still I'd be shocked if Penny is a Dodger by the end of this week.
2006-12-06 11:59:56
113.   JD in Milan
regarding Gagne ... is it possible to assume that Boras doesn't want him in LA. Here he'd have to compete with Saito and Broxton for the closer role.
2006-12-06 12:00:15
114.   Andrew Shimmin
2006 Dunn in the 9th inning: .255/.385/.476
2006 Dunn in extra innings: .319/.475/.766

2006 Kent in the 9th inning: .226/.265/.516
2006 Kent in extra innings: .125/.364/.125

2006-12-06 12:01:00
115.   GoBears
95 102 Thanks, ToyCannon. I wasn't ridiculing - just wondering out loud. I'd always believed the hype - that Snow was a great defensive 1bman. But several years ago (5-6?) I saw an article that assessed him as below-avg defensively. I don't remember the metric used, and it surprised me, which is why, 5-6 yrs later, I asked.

So our eyes did not deceive in this case. Good to know.

Offensively, as I recall, he improved once he stopped switch-hitting, and especailly once he became a strict platoon guy. He had a really good year (or two?) in PacBell.

2006-12-06 12:03:21
116.   blue22
101/114 - There's this game too:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260630117

2006-12-06 12:03:44
117.   jdm025
107-109
I just think that Tomko is a big league version of a pitching machine on the "10" setting. Sure he can throw 95, but it doesn't seem to miss many bats. Gagne could be seen as a value if he works out. That would provide us with a devastating back end of the bullpen with Broxton(and don't forget Brazoban) as the set up and Saito and Gagne as closers.
2006-12-06 12:03:48
118.   dkminnick
Aren't Gold Gloves voted on by the players? In the absence of any convincing defensive stats, the opinions of fellow players seems as good a way as any to evaluate defense.

I'm no expert, but I learn from you guys and I've never seen anyone swear by any current defensive metrics. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2006-12-06 12:03:56
119.   ToyCannon
I can't believe that we won't take a 5 million flyer on Gagne. This smacks to me of Ned not wanting to work with Boras. No arbitration for Maddux and no contract. No arbitration for Gagne and no contract. He only seems to be talking to non-Boras free agents. I gave no credence to Ned not wanting to deal with Boras anymore when it was 1st floated but unless they have some health information on Gagne that they are keeping to themselves I can't see how we're not the team taking a flyer on him.
2006-12-06 12:04:34
120.   saltcreek
113. Gagne isnt coming back. There is just no way unless we somehow dump salary. I think we are around 115 million after the signing. Plus we might still trade for manny or burrell, or sign gonzo.
2006-12-06 12:04:37
121.   NPB
A. The Lieberthal signing is great. He'd be the starting catcher for a number of clubs.

B. Gonzalez would be a deeply foolish signing. There was talk of him RETIRING after last season. We'd be getting a once above-average hitter way past his prime.

C. Adam Dunn is a monster power hitter who walks and strikes out a lot. It's been a long time since we had a Three True Outcomes guy in a Dodgers uni. When was the last one? Frank Howard? Regardless, this is an interesting piece in a lineup made up largely of OBP guys and doubles hitters.

D. Trade the farm, or at least half of it, for Manny. Matt Kemp may turn out to be the next coming of Willie Mays, or he may not.

I think Frank McCourt's deal with the devil, which he obviously made before buying the Dodgers, is paying dividends this season.

2006-12-06 12:04:37
122.   blue22
115 - His career rate2 is exactly 100. He's never had a big year in that stat (never eclipsing 110).
2006-12-06 12:06:44
123.   ToyCannon
115
The ridicule comment wasn't directed at you but the cumulative snide JT comments that occur here whenever his name comes up.
2006-12-06 12:06:48
124.   saltcreek
119. Gagne is my favorite dodger, but I think there is no way we give him 5 million without even seeing him pitch first. Unless he backs down from his demands.
2006-12-06 12:08:18
125.   LA Native
104

I think it makes sense at $5M plus incentives. Broxton and Saito will get worn out unless we have a Brazoban or Gagne helping them out. Saito is 37 remember. Tomko is all but useless for us now, but might be pretty useful to some other teams.

2006-12-06 12:09:02
126.   Dark Horse
105-Thanks. I assuredly wasn't (and am not) trying to be pedantic...it's my own suceptibility I'm looking at here. Because it's easy to wring our hands over losing a prospect and to remember stupid trades of years past, and easier still to wish for a greater return than, er, Julio Lugo, but even then I wonder that our hopefulness doesn't way outpace a prospect's value. (Although...)

That said, I really don't want to lose any of these players, but I'd bite the bullet on Penny-plus-one (and which one?) perhaps. Perhaps.

2006-12-06 12:09:19
127.   saltcreek
From rotoworld......"Agent Gregg Clifton said that Luis Gonzalez will likely choose the Dodgers unless either the Cardinals or Orioles improve their offer. All three teams are oguaranteeing the 39-year-old only one year at the moment. Gonzalez is expected to make a decision before the end of the day."......Crap
2006-12-06 12:09:49
128.   robohobo
112. With the starting pitching we now have, we can win the NL West. If the goal is the playoffs where luck or destiny take over, I think the Dodgers are there. We will better know what we have near the trade deadline and guys like Swisher or Jason Bay could possibly be had for several prospects from a small market team.
2006-12-06 12:09:49
129.   saltcreek
127.but at least its not 2 years.....
2006-12-06 12:10:02
130.   ToyCannon
118
It is a terrible way to evaluate defense. The peers are idiots. They recently voted Rafy a GG when he played more DH then 1st base. Your asking ballplayers to think and take something seriously that they could care less about.JMO
2006-12-06 12:10:13
131.   jdm025
113
I wonder if Boras' management contracts include language like "...player agrees that I, Scott Boras, henceforth known as "God", ..." and requires the player to sign the bottom line in blood.
2006-12-06 12:12:47
132.   GoBears
115. Maybe it was rate2 that drove the article I'm half-remembering. But I guess rate2 has fallen into disfavor, eh?

Eh, who cares. There's more interesting stuff to talk about today.

Boy, do I not want Luis Gonzales. In fact, I hope SF signs him - that's how much I don't want him.

2006-12-06 12:13:47
133.   ToyCannon
127
I think Gonzo's agent is playing the other teams. Pierre is one thing cause he's a CF, but if Ned truly does listen to his scouts no way does he sign Gonzo to block Ethier/Kemp/Loney. Can you imagine how many runners will be taking extra bases on the two worse arms in baseball. Why even Kent and Drew might be able to score on a double.
2006-12-06 12:14:39
134.   overkill94
I know the defense is a big difference, but Gonzo had a higher OPS than Jenkins did last year and won't require us to trade anyone for him. I'm just sayin...
2006-12-06 12:16:10
135.   DodgerHobbit
102 I think Eric Karros summed it up best when he said,
"Chicks dig the home run."
2006-12-06 12:16:32
136.   JD in Milan
131 ... I just think Boras is (rightfully) going to place his client with a team where he'll be the defacto closer allowing him to run up a huge save count and then cash in the following year with a long term contract. That appears not to be the case with the Dodgers.
2006-12-06 12:16:33
137.   Midwest Blue
Why even Kent and Drew might be able to score on a double.

That's uncalled for. I don't need to see that in my head again.

2006-12-06 12:17:15
138.   trainwreck
3 years...

I like!

Now to wait for the other shoe to drop.

2006-12-06 12:19:37
139.   GoBears
130 Is that right? GGs are voted on by players? I thought it was writers - or maybe some combination thereof.

I really don't care about GGs (or any individual awards). But I object when they're used as independent measures of ability (even by Bill James's HOF monitor) because they are not -- they merely trumpet pre-existing impressions of ability.

That Morneau won the MVP this year isn't additional evidence of his ability. It's merely evidence of the voters' opinions of that ability.

I feel the same way about Oscars, and Grammys, and any sort of awards.

2006-12-06 12:20:34
140.   saltcreek
133. Exactly ToyCannon... His arm is to much of a liability for the outfield. Hes a great guy...but hes a DH at this point.
2006-12-06 12:22:30
141.   jdm025
136
Kidding aside, if he is healthy, Gagne would be that guy in LA. Saito is great and everything, but when he is healthy, Gagne is simply better and would be the first out of the bullpen in the 9th. The real obstacle may be Ned's scorn for Boras more than Boras's negotiating tactics.
2006-12-06 12:23:02
142.   ToyCannon
Joe Sheehan of BP just put the Dodger winter in the plus after today's work. He actually called the Schmidt signing earlier in the chat when he said he felt someone was going to come in and sweep Schmidt away from the Cubs. Glad it was us.
2006-12-06 12:24:37
143.   PadreJeremy
You know its a good signing when it makes me hate the Dodgers more.

The Dodgers need to spend like the Yankees even if the logic of paying 16 mil for three years of a mid 30s pitcher on the decline when you have a weak offense and some good young pitchers who need a chance makes no sense. The Dodgers should be one of a handful of teams that can overpay free agents and have them flop and still make the playoffs. If the Yanks can do it with the likes of Pavano and Wright, then the Dodgers should be able to do it with the likes of a Jason Schmidt and Juan Pierre. Schmidt will pitch well and help but for 16 mil, you better pitch like a Roy Oswalt or a Brandon Webb which he wont do assuming he is even healthy for long stretches. I really respected the Dodgers years ago when they could have their name players and still bring up some great young players. They seem to be afraid to do that now because they know they havent won like they should have in the past 10-15 years.

Schmidt makes the Dodgers better but i dont think you sign him unless you plan on trading Penny for a stud hitter who is a bargain. Ill take Penny at 9-10 mil per for 2 years over Schmidt for 16 mil per for three years. If signing Schmidt allows you to trade Penny to get ManRam, and keep your prized prospects, I understand, but if there is any payroll restraint and you dont believe in your young players, you keep Penny and ante up the extra prospect and get ManRam anyway.

The spending is so ridiculous that you block an intriguing guy like Kuo to get Schmidt and or to trade Penny for a hitter thats going to jack up your payroll even more.

The Dodgers should be hated like the Yankees in the same way their fans love them but endless money makes you look really bad if it allows you to defy logic in what you do by acquiring everyone you could want without any reason behind it.

The Dodgers are clearly the best team in the West now and it makes me question as a Padre fan why we spend 10 mil on Maddux. Its kind of like being an Orioles, Jays, or Rays fan. Why bother spending on a free agent because he is a bargain. Play youngsters or pay for the real deal like a Zito or someone else. What the Padres are doing, I have no clue. However, until the Dodgers acquire another hitter via a Penny trade, there are still alot of question marks for such a high priced team.

Maybe sour grapes on this Padre fans face, but it will make your failings next year even more enjoyable.

Either way, this is the best baseball team blog with the most intelligent participants and I enjoy being able to read the comments as it is clear there are many Dodger fans who dont look at things with blinders on and who give great Dodger thoughts.

2006-12-06 12:25:08
144.   paranoidandroid
I don't see ANYONE taking Tomko unless we pick up 5 of the 6 million in salary.

I would like to sign Gagne.

I prefer to trade some prospects and a young pitcher for Carl Crawford than to trade Penny, Broxton and someone else for Manny.

2006-12-06 12:25:11
145.   A Slo
I guess this won't happen but with the talk of trading Penny it just seems to make a lot more sense to me to trade Lowe now and keep Penny. Anyone think Lowe can perform as well or better than he did last year? Sell high on Lowe instead of selling low on Penny.
2006-12-06 12:26:35
146.   thinkblue0
does anyone doubt that Loney could probably put up at least SIMILAR numbers to Gonzo this year?

Like the Schmidt signing though. Go with Schmidt, Penny, Lowe, Wolf, Bills and just throw Loney in the other OF spot unless something comes up that we can't turn down.

2006-12-06 12:27:14
147.   Bob Timmermann
131
At least you're not demonizing Scott Boras.
2006-12-06 12:29:30
148.   Greg S
Not to put a damper on anything (and not that it should) but Loney was apparently sent home from the Dominican this week because he was struggling. Nothing to be ashamed of as it can be tough down there but just a little irrational exhuberance check.
2006-12-06 12:31:16
149.   jdm025
145
I would prefer to keep Lowe just because of his previous postseason experience (though Penny has had some moments). I wonder which one teams would want more and what the difference in return would be.
2006-12-06 12:32:48
150.   jdm025
147
Is my bitterness showing?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-12-06 12:33:11
151.   trainwreck
I love Nate's proposed trade. Let's get Gallardo!
2006-12-06 12:33:12
152.   blue22
146 - Gonzo hit .271 with 15 HR's, 73 RBI to go with a .352/.444/.796 line last year.

Dare I say those are expected numbers from Loney over a 162-game season?

2006-12-06 12:33:25
153.   DodgerHobbit
144 D-Rays might take him.
Their manager wanted a "crusty veteran" for their rotation.
2006-12-06 12:34:28
154.   trainwreck
ESPN just called Luiz Gonzalez a big help to our offense...

Riiiiiight.

2006-12-06 12:34:38
155.   ToyCannon
From the Jim Callis Chat moments ago:
Mike - CA: Done deal - Mannny to Dodgers!! LA tv reports...

Jim Callis: Really?

Nothing verified, but I thought I'd pass it on just to raise some blood pressure.

2006-12-06 12:35:45
156.   trainwreck
Please do not trade LaRoche!

Please do not trade LaRoche!

Please do not trade LaRoche!

2006-12-06 12:36:26
157.   Steve
I'm not opposed to anything going on here, except the concept of signing Luis Gonzalez, and particularly if we're going to trade for Manny Ramirez. That's just runaway ego.
2006-12-06 12:38:18
158.   dkminnick
130 - My queston is: Compared to what? Who here is willing to stake their reputation on a defensive metric? Seems like rate2 is something that people almost apologize for citing - and isn't that the stat that showed Jeff Kent to be an above average defensive 2nd baseman?
2006-12-06 12:38:35
159.   Curtis Lowe
155 "LA TV Reports"

LA TV is not reporting WTH!

2006-12-06 12:39:12
160.   JD in Milan
... (taking with a huge grain of salt) ... Steve Phillips reported earlier that Bonds may end up with ChiSox or the Dodgers.
2006-12-06 12:40:49
161.   MartinBillingsley31
Been away for a long while (since before the playoffs).
As the regulars know, I hated Kenny "I had 1 single in the playoffs" Lofton and hate Kenny Lofton #2 (Juan Pierre).
What's with the dodgers and their love of no OPS (specifically power) centerfielders?

On the bright side, Ned picked up schmidt, who is 1 of my 2 free agent hopefull pick ups, the other being Zito.

Keep the prospects, ditch Pierre somehow, and pick up Zito, that's all.

A starting position players of Martin, Nomar, Kent, Furcal, Betemit/Laroche, Ethier, Kemp, Loney would be just fine with good pitching.
With backups such as Betemit/Laroche, Anderson, Saenz, Martinez, Lieberthal.

Schmidt
Zito
Penny
Lowe
Billingsley

Kuo
Broxton
Saito
3 fillers in the pen.

Again, what's with the continuing Dave Roberts, Kenny Lofton, Juan Pierre type centerfielders.
Lofton was a thorn in the side of the team last year just like Roberts was before Lofton, and Pierre will be the same.
Stupid old fashioned, gotta have 2 speedy guys at the top of the lineup garbage.

And since i wasn't around here during the playoffs to complain, starting Lugo over Betemit at 3b and starting Lofton over BOTH Ethier and Kemp was flat out dumb.

Good ridence Lofton.
And Pierre, get lost.

2006-12-06 12:41:55
162.   saltcreek
155..It would be for Penny, Ethier, and Loney..but i dont think its gonna happen. Please dont let it happen..
2006-12-06 12:42:02
163.   Midwest Blue
Best lede so far:
Oh Schmidt! Jason leaves Giants for hated Dodgers

Followed by And the folks in No Cal begin the chant of "Turn off their water."

Stickin it to the Giants and helping the Dodgers at the same time: priceless!

2006-12-06 12:43:34
164.   dkminnick
163 - Those in Yosemite are chanting, "Turn off Hetch Hetchy!"
2006-12-06 12:43:38
165.   GoBears
161 Feel better, with all that off your chest, MB31? Ha! Glad to have you back. That was a lot of pent up frustration. We feel your pain.
2006-12-06 12:45:33
166.   Midwest Blue
160 Confirms what I suspected, that Steve Phillips is in the back sniffing glue between TV appearances.
2006-12-06 12:45:43
167.   trainwreck
ESPN's headline:

Schmidt Will Happen in LA

2006-12-06 12:45:44
168.   scareduck
104 - Not that it will happen, but has anyone noticed that Gagne is only asking for $900 K more in base salary than Tomko makes? Why not try to unload him for a spare part and then sign Gagne.

Because Colletti hates Scott Boras?

2006-12-06 12:49:04
169.   MartinBillingsley31
165

Glad to have you back.

Thanks.

That was a lot of pent up frustration. We feel your pain.

Cool, I just had to say it.

2006-12-06 12:49:05
170.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Ned Colletti had a vision of Scott Boras astride a pale horse carrying a scythe and a 15-year guaranteed contract for Daisuke Matsuzaka.
2006-12-06 12:51:13
171.   Uncle Miltie
Just got back from class. I'm extremely pleased with this move. Great job by Ned. Schmidt is a huge addition and Colletti didn't even have to give him a 4 year deal. Wow. I'm thrilled with this deal.

I now expect Penny to be dealt for a big bat, possibly Pat Burrell.

2006-12-06 12:51:26
172.   Robert Daeley
168 FOXSports.com: "Schmidt Happens"

Oy.

2006-12-06 12:52:05
173.   saltcreek
170. LOL
2006-12-06 12:52:46
174.   Steve
Never mind, I get it. Tim Kurkjian just reported that we were going to sign Jim Rice and Reggie Smith.
2006-12-06 12:53:32
175.   trainwreck
Who need Burrell?

We are going to get Gonzo!! You know the guy with the huge forearms like Popeye.

2006-12-06 12:54:41
176.   Ladderkite
166 - I did a spit take. Nice.
2006-12-06 12:54:58
177.   Greg S
How is it that we get away with a 3 year contract for Schmidt but are forced to give Pierre 5? Or is it just the Schmidt knows he's good and that he'll be able to sign a bigger contract in 3 years? Hard to reconcile those two.
2006-12-06 12:56:59
178.   trainwreck
177
Schmidt reportedly wanted to stay on West Coast and I guess we offered more per year than the Mariners.
2006-12-06 13:01:02
179.   saltcreek
Scmidt is getting more per year at less years. But he will be 37 at the end of this deal....he wont be able to sign a better deal.
2006-12-06 13:03:29
180.   Eric Enders
Whatever Phillips is sniffing, he's sharing it with Keith Law.

"He stays in the National League, in the pitcher-friendly NL West, and will play in front of what projects to be very good defensive outfield -- important to Schmidt, who's been a flyball pitcher since he first went to San Francisco in 2001. The Dodgers' rotation now reads Schmidt-Derek Lowe-Brad Penny-Randy Wolf-Hong-Chih Kuo, with Chad Billingsley in Triple-A or in a long relief role or as possible trade bait. If the Dodgers do decide to deal for a "now" bat in left field, they can trade Billingsley and one of Andre Ethier or Matt Kemp without hurting their 2007 club."

2006-12-06 13:04:30
181.   Daniel Zappala
So how do you explain a career like Schmidt, with lots of mediocre early years and then increasingly better years as he got older? Can you really not predict whether someone will become a good MLB pitcher?
2006-12-06 13:04:53
182.   natepurcell
Nate, why does Jenkins get such little respect? I've rarely seen him play, but his stat's sure look good. According to everything I read up on him he seems to a solid power guy, solid obp, average baserunner, above average rf, and he has a decent contract in todays world.

I think its because of two things
1- he is consistently inconsistent. He is the definition of a streaky hitter
2- His high amount of Ks seem to lessen his value in the eyes of most people.

other then that, no clue.

2006-12-06 13:05:12
183.   Benaiah
177 - I think Ned wanted Pierre for five. Pierre is younger and never injured.

Please please please not Kuo, Billz, Loney, Laroche or Kemp.

I can take Ethier, Penny or Broxton... but even that hurts. I feel like I am waiting for the doctor to come in and tell me how many of my toes he has to cut off.

2006-12-06 13:05:27
184.   Bumsrap
If signing Gonzo means not trading for Manny, then I have only thought--Hurry up and sign Gonzo.

If the Dodgers get a power bat for right field I would have only thought--play Nomar at third, of course I always have that thought.

Trading Penny puts Ned pretty close to substracting all the players Depo obtained and makes it easier for Grady to pull the pitcher that takes Penny's place.

Now that I have Nomar playing third, a good trade for me would be a combo of Penny and Betemit, maybe include Hendrickson, for a 35 year old right fielder (I am trying to think like Ned).

Is there a way to sort for a player with power, plays right field, and is 35 years old? If not, perhaps someone could keypunch some cards with that data and then stick a pin into the right hole and shake out the cards to find the ones that match...wait, that is how Florida votes.

2006-12-06 13:09:11
185.   Greg Brock
As I've said, I like James Loney as much or more than the next guy, but James Loney and Brad Penny for Manny Ramirez? Really? You wouldn't want that?

I love our farm system, but, I would like to win a world title at some point here. You can only crow about your farm system for so long. I agree about LaRoche/Kemp/Billingsley, but waving a flag about how wonderful your farm team is goes only so far.

2006-12-06 13:10:59
186.   ToyCannon
The BP Pecota projection for Schmidt as a Dodger:
http://tinyurl.com/vgjmx
2006-12-06 13:12:49
187.   ToyCannon
If a real trade offer is on the table and it is Penny/Ethier/Loney for Manny, even with all my doubts about Manny I'm all over that deal and then for those who thought McCourt wouldn't spend 100million, I've got some big ole crows over at my place that look to be good eating.
2006-12-06 13:12:50
188.   Honoluludodger
185. Aloha. I agree with Mr. Brock. I'd do the deal in a minute.

Mahalo

2006-12-06 13:12:52
189.   Midwest Blue
180 My congratulations to George Bush. Apparently the economy is doing so well that even crack-addicted hobos (no offense robohobo) are getting employed at ESPN.
2006-12-06 13:13:03
190.   Benaiah
185 - First, Manny's defense is so bad that it actually cripples his value. According to Win Shares Drew is more valuable than Manny, because of defense. Second, I couldn't care less about trading Penny, but I bet that Loney and a pitcher will be thrown in to sweeten the pot and that is just waaaaay too much. Third, Manny is getting paid a lot of money and in 3 or 4 years he will be complaining and doing all the goofy things that he is doing now in Boston. Just sit on your hands, try to win with the best staff in the NL West and maybe the deepest lineup.
2006-12-06 13:13:11
191.   natepurcell
186

I would be disappointed if schmidt put up those numbers next year.

2006-12-06 13:14:04
192.   trainwreck
Yeah, that is Brad Pennyesque.
2006-12-06 13:15:08
193.   Bob Timmermann
185
There's that Greg Brock again. He wants the Dodgers to win a World Series. He wants UCLA to have a good football team. The next thing you know he'll say he wants UCLA to have an undefeated #1 basketball team....

Or maybe a real pipe dream, he will expect the US to win the FIFA World Cup.

2006-12-06 13:16:58
194.   Honoluludodger
185. The great thing about a farm, is sometimes you actually harvest your crops and sell them. Then you get to buy a big giant combine with the money you make from selling some of the product of your farm. Then you plant more seeds and grow a new crop.

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 13:17:18
195.   Greg Brock
193 I could live with another Final Four appearance. But yeah, I am greedy with the "not being .500 in football" and "winning a world series in my lifetime" stuff.

What can I say. Big sense of entitlement over here...

2006-12-06 13:18:54
196.   saltcreek
186. what are their projections of kuo and billz?
2006-12-06 13:20:02
197.   Marty
195 You weren't around in 1988? What more do you want? :)
2006-12-06 13:21:52
198.   Greg Brock
197 Fine. Then I want a cute curse where the team doesn't have to win and yet gets covered endlessly by ESPN. Maybe the curse of Kal Daniels or something. I don't know. Let's at least be colorful.
2006-12-06 13:22:09
199.   regfairfield
196 They're only releasing them sparringly right now.
2006-12-06 13:22:29
200.   ToyCannon
Another name to add to the outfield mix via rotowire:
" 12/6/2006
Hidalgo is drawing interest from several teams this offseason, including the Twins, Cubs, Rockies and Dodgers, the Chicago Tribune reports. He's hitting .252/.333/.766 with six home runs in 35 games in the Venezuelan winter league and appears to be healthy. Hidalgo missed the entire 2006 season to be with his ill wife and after failing to find a suitable contract. His 2005 season ended due to a wrist injury and that may also have been a factor. He toyed with the idea of playing in Japan last season and that's also an option this next year. It looks like he's healthy and could make an impact in the major leagues this season. Despite a subpar 2005 and time away, he still offers plenty of power.
"

FYI - The Dewan Fielding Bible considers Hidalgo the 2nd best fielding RF with a great and accurate arm.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-12-06 13:22:48
201.   Greg Brock
And the US will win a World Cup in my lifetime.

Provided that cryogenics improves greatly in the coming years.

2006-12-06 13:23:18
202.   Bumsrap
Posted December 06, by Ben Maller

"The one area where we're covered is in the outfield," Devil Rays manager Joe Maddon said, indicating he'd like a veteran starting pitcher to take some pressure off a young staff led by All-Star left-hander Scott Kazmir. "If something like [a trade] were to happen, we feel that's the one spot we can handle internally." The Devil Rays are considering moving prized prospect B.J. Upton from shortstop to the outfield.

Tomko, Hendrickson, and Penny should qualify as veteran pitchers. The question is: Do the Devil Rays have an outfielder that the Dodgers might want?

Crawford would be fun.

2006-12-06 13:23:33
203.   JoeyP
If you add Manny to the team this year, I think the Dodgers immediately become contenders in the NL.

I got a feeling Ned is going all in this year.

2006-12-06 13:25:00
204.   Benaiah
203 - I think the Dodgers are already automatically contenders in the NL.
2006-12-06 13:25:48
205.   JoeyP
If I were to choose Juan Pierre or Barry Bonds, I'd pick Bonds.

If Bonds were to play 1st base for the Dodgers, I'd have to support the move. Its all about winning.

Nomar at 3rd and Bonds at 1st, Manny in Lf...ok that aint happening but it'd something to think about.

2006-12-06 13:26:10
206.   Daniel Zappala
I wouldn't be surprised if Coletti is uncomfortable with Kuo in the rotation. The current rotation is Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Wolf, Billingsley. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Coletti sign Suppan and then trade Penny.
2006-12-06 13:27:21
207.   ToyCannon
190
What win shares are you reading?
2006/2005/2004/2003/2002
JD - 19/12/31/13/15
Manny - 27/33/25/28/29

From BJHB 2007

Not defending Manny's terrible defense and baserunning abilities but other then 2004 JD doesn't come close to Manny in WinShares.

2006-12-06 13:27:37
208.   robohobo
189. No offense taken as I am actually a crack-addicted ROBOT hobo.
2006-12-06 13:28:07
209.   Penarol1916
194. What crops are you harvesting that you can make any profit without a huge government handout?
2006-12-06 13:28:47
210.   trainwreck
I think Grady likes Kuo. I think they have less faith in Billingsley.
2006-12-06 13:28:48
211.   Marty
I got a feeling Ned is going all in this year.

That gives me visions of Ned pushing all our prospects into the middle of the table.

2006-12-06 13:28:48
212.   Bob Timmermann
206
Jeff Suppan, despite growing up in the San Fernando Valley and owning a house in Granada Hills and working part-time at the Daily News when in high school, had to ask for directions for Dodger Stadium for the 2004 Division Series.
2006-12-06 13:29:29
213.   Marty
Suppan has issues with Michael J. Fox also as I recall.
2006-12-06 13:31:14
214.   Ladderkite
205 - I am sharpening my pitchfork right now.
2006-12-06 13:31:43
215.   Benaiah
207 - honestly I didn't make that up off the top my head, I remember reading that somewhere. Now in order to save face I am trying to find the article and struggling.
2006-12-06 13:33:01
216.   Penarol1916
201. I cannot live in a world where the US wins the World Cup. If they were winning in injury time of the final I would to take my own life in order to ensure that I never live in a world where the US has won one.
2006-12-06 13:33:17
217.   Bumsrap
187 There is no way I would include Loney in a Manny trade. My goal is to play Loney at first and Nomar at third.

High, way up in the sky, fly balls that drop just over the fence may have been a Toy Cannon signature, but he threw like a girl.

Watching Manny wait for the ball to stop rolling before he picks it up and lobs it to Peirre who lobs it back to the infield should be reserved for pregame relay contests in conjunction with Hollywood Stars night.

2006-12-06 13:34:15
218.   Greg Brock
216 You stay classy, Uruguay.

I don't think you need to worry.

2006-12-06 13:35:16
219.   Bob Timmermann
213
Jason Schmidt has issues with Justine Bateman.

Greg Maddux had issues with Michael Gross.

Tina Yothers and I are not on speaking terms anymore.

2006-12-06 13:35:19
220.   natepurcell
JoeyP's scenarios scare me.
2006-12-06 13:35:29
221.   Honoluludodger
194. I would harvest two of our blue chip prospects for Wells or Jones so long as they would sign long term contracts.

Mahalo

2006-12-06 13:36:03
222.   Penarol1916
218. If Uruguay were classy we wouldn't be referred to as Argentina's dirtier and more violent brother.
2006-12-06 13:37:16
223.   Honoluludodger
209. My comment 221 was also directed at you.

Mahalo

2006-12-06 13:37:58
224.   Greg Brock
222 I thought Bolivia was the butt of all the jokes.
2006-12-06 13:38:19
225.   DodgerHobbit
Our chances at Gagne may not have that much to do with whether or not we sign Gonzo but I have this little vision running through my head. Eric Gagne is standing in front of a mirror with his plasma television blaring espn updates in the background. He has a Sox and a Dodgers cap in front of him, and he slowly puts on the Dodger cap. Just as it is about to be pulled onto his head Steve Phillips blurts out from the television that the Dodgers officially signed Luis Gonzalez for 1 year 5 million dollar deal with an option for a second based on plate appearances, and Gagne jerks the cap off his head as if he'd been stung, and reaching out for the cap with the big "B" on it. Then Gagne just kinda morphs into Darth Vader and starts rasping unintelligably.

I hope at least somebody enjoyed that.

2006-12-06 13:39:35
226.   Bumsrap
I wasn't sure that farmers bought combines and instead rented them with high school kids running them all night long.
2006-12-06 13:39:38
227.   Honoluludodger
222. "If Uruguay were classy we wouldn't be referred to as Argentina's dirtier and more violent brother".

I am the "dirtier and more violent brother" in my family. It is considered an honor.

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 13:43:37
228.   trainwreck
How can you hate Michael Gross? Without him there is no Tremors 4.
2006-12-06 13:44:00
229.   Bob Timmermann
I can get people a deal on a combine.

http://www.timmermannimp.com/

2006-12-06 13:44:16
230.   ToyCannon
217
Hey don't disparage the Cannon he had a gun before injuries turned it into a Joe Ferguson showcase. He even played SS 21 games in 1963 while his HOF teammate Joe Morgan was just tasting the bigs with the Colt 45's. That would have been a fun keystone combo to watch.

Manny has a decent arm, but the waiting for the ball to stop rolling is how he plays defense.

2006-12-06 13:44:54
231.   Eric Enders
224 The two best being made by Paul Newman and Mike Tyson, respectively.

"Next time I say let's go someplace like Bolivia, let's go someplace like Bolivia!"

"I don't know. I might just fade into Bolivia."

2006-12-06 13:44:58
232.   Penarol1916
224. They are, but that is because they are drug users and are terrible players at sea-level, but no dirtier than your average Latin American side.

227. I never said it wasn't an honor, just that it precludes being considered classy. I mean how else do you think a nation of 3 million people dominated the worlds most popular game for 35 years?

2006-12-06 13:45:05
233.   Greg Brock
Heck of a swimmer, too.

The Albatross.

2006-12-06 13:45:37
234.   DodgerHobbit
227
I liked the farm metaphor.
2006-12-06 13:46:57
235.   Bob Timmermann
232
Uruguay winning the World Cup twice is sort of like Wake Forest winning the BCS championship twice.

Or maybe Rice.

2006-12-06 13:48:40
236.   Honoluludodger
232. You were referring to soccer? Oh, I understand and agree. In 227 I was simply referring to my family honor.

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 13:49:25
237.   ssjames
I was listening to XM Radio, and heard Kevin Kennedy and Billy Ripken hinting strongly that Barry Bonds had a face to face meeting with Ned at the Winter Meetings and there were rumors of us signing him. I can't believe such a thing would ever happen, but they were there and claimed that it did and was all the "buzz."
2006-12-06 13:49:34
238.   Goiter
if ned keeps all this pitching and doesn't acquire anymore position players, where will kemp play if nomar stays at first and loney is in RF and ethier in LF? i hope the answer to this is not "on another team."

i'd like to see kent get traded with penny in some package for chase utley. the phillies need pitching.

2006-12-06 13:50:49
239.   Honoluludodger
234. Mahalo.
2006-12-06 13:51:03
240.   Penarol1916
235. I'd say that it is more like Wake Forest, since they play in a BCS league with some much bigger guns carrying their baggege lately. In fact, if you really want me to bore everyone, I can make and ACC football analogy for everyone in CONMEBOL.
2006-12-06 13:51:15
241.   natepurcell
237

with bonds, we would be WS contenders.

with bonds, i might have to find another team.

2006-12-06 13:52:09
242.   Goiter
237 - just say "no" to bonds.
2006-12-06 13:53:13
243.   Jacob L
Let me put this as plainly as I can. I will not root for Barry Bonds.

Bonds rumors have me bullish on Gonzo.

2006-12-06 13:53:13
244.   trainwreck
Does Ned even pay attention to outfield defense?

Bonds is at the Winter Meetings, maybe he just wanted to plea his case to Ned and stick it to the Giants.

2006-12-06 13:53:41
245.   Peanuts in My Shoes
"Gotham Baseball's Mark Healey checks in with an interesting rumor mill. The Mets have been linked to Brad Penny, who is now a hot trade commodity since the Jason Schmidt signing."

Who would we want from the Mets?

2006-12-06 13:53:55
246.   trainwreck
*plead
2006-12-06 13:54:16
247.   natepurcell
Does Ned even pay attention to outfield defense?

Outfield defense doesnt really matter when the player in question can put up a .430OBP in his sleep.

2006-12-06 13:54:25
248.   trainwreck
Milledge and Heilman!! Do it Ned!!
2006-12-06 13:56:11
249.   Greg Brock
I doubt they give up Milledge for Penny.
2006-12-06 13:56:14
250.   Jacob L
Who would we want from the Mets?

I like that fellow what plays the centerfield. Or are we talking reality here?

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-12-06 13:56:28
251.   Goiter
245 - penny and prospects for david wright. (that would be great, but i don't see it happening, though)
2006-12-06 13:56:36
252.   JoeyP
I could root for Bonds.
I've done it with Finley and Kent, I could come around to cheering for Bonds.

As a player, I think he has the best hitting approach of anyone in the game.

As for roids, I could care less.
Its not like he wasnt the only one doing them. Gagne's alleged juicing doesnt take away my enjoyment of watching him pitch when he was good.

2006-12-06 13:57:11
253.   Daniel Zappala
Giants fans must be conflicted. Imagine if Bonds signed with the Dodgers, won a World Series with the Dodgers, and then chose to go into the Hall of Fame as a Dodger. Scary for both them and us.
2006-12-06 13:57:20
254.   trainwreck
Omar Minaya is not a good GM. I would not put anything past him.
2006-12-06 13:58:33
255.   trainwreck
Bonds would light fires for Kent.
2006-12-06 13:58:38
256.   Midwest Blue
Nighmare on Stadium Way:

At a press conference to introduce their new acquisition LF Barry Bonds, Dodger GM Ned Colletti surprised everyone by putting on a San Francisco cap and cackling "Fooled you all. This is now SF South! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!"

2006-12-06 13:59:25
257.   Greg Brock
254 Minaya hasn't been that bad.

Beltran
Delgado
Locks up Wright and Reyes three years beyond arbitration
Pedro Martinez
Billy Wagner

Not too shabby.

2006-12-06 13:59:44
258.   Jacob L
Omar Minaya is not a good GM.

I won't argue the basic point, but at least when he throws huge money around, he gets guys in their primes. (Pedro excepted)

2006-12-06 13:59:56
259.   oswald
schmidt never tasted so good!

you'll pee your pants when you taste this schmidt!

at this point, i think the dodgers are good enough to win the west. they have the best starting rotation in baseball (and chips to deal at the trade deadline).

i hope that either (a) loney gets the call in right or (b) luis gonzalez is signed, nomar takes over third, and loney takes over first. i really think that ethier (one year older, stronger, smarter, etc) and loney (for a whole season) and kent (healthy) can make up for the production lost in drew.

i hope colletti tries for gonzalez and quits after that regardless of how that turns out.

2006-12-06 14:00:18
260.   ssjames
I imagine that Ned would have to run a Bonds signing past McCourt, and somehow I don't think that McCourt would go for it, even if it meant that we would likely go to the WS. Just imagine Kent and Bonds back together. That isn't a pretty picture.
2006-12-06 14:01:04
261.   JoeyP
How good would this team be?

SS- Furcal
C- Martin
1b- Bonds
LF- Manny
2b- Kent
3b- Nomar
RF- Kemp/Ethier
CF- Pierre

Schmidt, Penny, Lowe, Kuo, Billingsley

Maybe Ned's idea for signing Pierre, was that he needed a super fast CF to cover for whatever statue he puts in LF (Manny or Bonds).

2006-12-06 14:01:17
262.   trainwreck
I did not like the Pedro deal.
2006-12-06 14:01:24
263.   Ladderkite
237 - I am gathering my torches. The pitchfork is already razor-sharp.
2006-12-06 14:01:52
264.   trainwreck
Yes, he is good at throwing money at the best players in free agency.
2006-12-06 14:03:02
265.   ssjames
264 So is Ned, it turns out. Furcal, Schmidt.
2006-12-06 14:03:08
266.   ToyCannon
252
One of the few times Joey and I are completely on the same page. I've already given my reason on why it makes complete sense from a Dodger standpoint compared to trading for Manny.
2006-12-06 14:03:13
267.   Greg Brock
264 From last place to best record in NL in two years. Phillips and Duquette couldn't do that.

Minaya isn't as bad as you think he is.

2006-12-06 14:03:28
268.   trainwreck
I only hate Bonds because he is a Giant. So I would be very amused to see everyone go insane if he were on the team.
2006-12-06 14:03:44
269.   Ladderkite
JoeyP, make the voices stop! Please. You are scaring the children.
2006-12-06 14:04:19
270.   trainwreck
He was also a GM for the Expos and he traded away their future for a rental in Bartolo Colon.
2006-12-06 14:05:35
271.   Greg Brock
There is only one player for whom all objectivity goes out the window, and that is Barry Bonds. I do not like the man, he is a cheat, selfish, a liar and a jerk, and I do not want him on the Dodgers.

Best plate approach ever, but I don't care. He can go elsewhere.

2006-12-06 14:05:42
272.   trainwreck
265
Not like I am a big fan of Ned either. At least his contracts were interesting because they were short.
2006-12-06 14:06:19
273.   trainwreck
271
So two Jeff Kents...
2006-12-06 14:07:39
274.   Curtis Lowe
Was he(Minaya) responsible for the Kazmir for Zambrano deal?
2006-12-06 14:08:15
275.   trainwreck
274
No, he was not there yet.
2006-12-06 14:08:17
276.   Greg Brock
274 That was Jim Duquette.
2006-12-06 14:08:59
277.   regfairfield
274 No, that was Jim Duquette. I'm thinking the Delgado deal's going to start looking mighty bad this year, however. And yes, he destroyed the Expos. That has to count against him.
2006-12-06 14:09:15
278.   Eric Enders
270 At the time that deal was made, the Expos literally didn't have a future. He knew it would likely be the franchise's only shot ever at contending, so he went for it. It didn't work, but I don't think it's a completely indefensible move.
2006-12-06 14:09:20
279.   trainwreck
He traded for Shawn Green!!
2006-12-06 14:09:27
280.   Greg Brock
Rick Peterson famously said he could fix Zambrano "in ten minutes" and Duquette's team was five out at the time. So Duquette took the bait. Moron.
2006-12-06 14:09:56
281.   s choir
I don't think there's any way Colletti signs Bonds. He probably just met with him to get in Sabean's head.
2006-12-06 14:10:52
282.   trainwreck
He just extended El Duque for two years at 12 million.
2006-12-06 14:11:26
283.   Eric Enders
Funny, Minaya has been with 2 different teams where he succeeded sucky GMs named Duquette.
2006-12-06 14:11:44
284.   regfairfield
From my "Worst G.M." write up of Minaya:

Of course, Minaya's willingness to give away the future for a misguided attempt to win now isn't unprecedented. Back in 2002, he basically sold away the Expos future for a chance at a wild card shot. Sitting five games over .500 on June 14th, he sent Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee to the Indians for half a season of Bartolo Colon. The Expos went one game under .500 the rest of the way, while the players he gave away are among the best young players in the game.

Other solid young players traded by Minaya include Jason Bay (for Lou Collier), Michael Barrett (for a player to be named later), Carl Pavano (for 53 at bats of Cliff Floyd), Guillermo Mota (for Matt Herges), Bruce Chen (for Jim Brower), and Chris Young (for Einar Diaz. While Minaya eventually did manage to bring in young players like John Patterson and Ryan Church for next to nothing, it's entirely possible that the Nationals would be an elite team if it wasn't from Minaya. Heck, going through that list made me realize I seeded the man way too low.

2006-12-06 14:15:15
285.   Greg Brock
284 That has not been Minaya with the Mets. People learn and grow. He may have stunk then, which I don't dispute, but he's done a good job with the Mets.

To say that Omar Minaya has been a bad General Manager with the Mets is just not a true statement. I'll leave it at that.

2006-12-06 14:16:22
286.   gibsonhobbs88
245,248 - I can see that trade happening. Milledge and Heilman for maybe Penny and Ethier/D.Young. At least we are getting a young player entering his prime instead of players past their prime.

As far as Bonds, that is the one player that will make me turn in my Dodger jacket and cease being a fan. I have no use for that jerk. Besides, his knees are almost bone on bone like Mueller last year.

I'd rather trade Penny, Hall and Betemit to the D.Rays for one of their outfielders - preferably Crawford but they might have to give up a Kersaw or Meloan also to make that happen. No to Bonds, Manram or Gonzo!!
All players with their best years behind them.

2006-12-06 14:17:15
287.   Eric Enders
286 In fact, there's a very good argument to be made that Minaya has been the best GM in baseball during his tenure with the Mets.
2006-12-06 14:18:36
288.   trainwreck
Lets just eat Pierre's contract and trade him with Penny and Betemit for Baldelli lol.
2006-12-06 14:18:59
289.   Jacob L
284 I had somewhere in the back of my head the knowledge that Minaya had traded prospects for Colon. I probably also knew that the trade didn't work out.

Phillips, Sizemore, and Lee? That I did not know. That's an all-time stinker of a trade. For me the benchmark is usually Rafael Palmeiro and Jamie Moyer for Mitch Wiliams and Paul Kilgus, or a shoe salesman for Pedro Guerrero, but I may have a new one

2006-12-06 14:21:38
290.   goblue1
For the love of all thats good in this world- STOP TALKING ABOUT BONDS N DODGER BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! &*%$& #E )U*GT^YDR^ arrrgghhh, Im gonna puke.
2006-12-06 14:22:13
291.   trainwreck
290
See that is the type of reaction that is hilarious to me since I do not care.
2006-12-06 14:25:19
292.   regfairfield
285 I wouldn't argue that he's learned anything, he just has more money now. He's dumped several prospects for guys like Delgado and Lo Duca.
2006-12-06 14:25:25
293.   goblue1
291

Fan of:

Dodgers?
Baseball?
Home Runs?
Anything but Dr. Phil?

2006-12-06 14:26:21
294.   trainwreck
There is no way it is happening. Him and Jeff Kent cannot exist. Conte hated dealing with Bonds and Ned saw first hand all the trouble that was around him.

No need to worry people.

2006-12-06 14:26:23
295.   Ladderkite
291 - Must be nice to not care.
2006-12-06 14:27:25
296.   Greg Brock
292 And when Yusmero Petit and Mike Jacobs outplay Carlos Delgado and Paul LoDuca I will readily concede that point.

I'm not saying he's Branch Rickey. I'm saying describing Minaya's stewardship of the Mets as "bad" is just not true. What do I care about the Mets? Not much.

I'm just all about the truth. Just like Jesus....and Judge Wapner.

2006-12-06 14:27:31
297.   gibsonhobbs88
The thought of having two of our three outfielders having the arms of the "Venus de Milo" frighten me. We don't need two arms in the outfield that "throw like a girl" (Don't mean to insult women in softball that have good arms). If we stick with Ethier is LF and Werth/Repko/Kemp in RF we can live with a weak arm in CF. Or get Crawford or Milledge in a trade to play LF and move Ethier to RF. Loney plays 1B and Nomar plays 3B. Betemit can be a piece to trade for one of the outfielders mentioned along with Penny.
2006-12-06 14:28:03
298.   trainwreck
I understand why people hate Bonds, but I guess I just stopped caring due to media saturation.
2006-12-06 14:28:27
299.   BlueCrew Bruin
256 And in another surprise development, Coletti announced the sale of naming rights to Dodger Stadium to a little known firm called The Death Star. The press conference ended abruptly when lightning shot wildly from Coletti's fingertips.
2006-12-06 14:29:35
300.   trainwreck
Plus, I really hated Derek Lowe before we signed him and I learned to like him. I still think Jeff Kent is a complete jerk, but I root for him to succeed.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-12-06 14:31:29
301.   trainwreck
LOL Bonds wants $40 million over 2 years.
2006-12-06 14:32:36
302.   Greg Brock
The Orioles would give Bonds 40 over 2 years.

That is sooooo an Orioles move.

2006-12-06 14:33:21
303.   Honoluludodger
298. Last year at a Daimondbacks/Giants game, I saw a bunch of kids yell for Bonds to throw them the ball. He snickered and rolled it into the area on the field just out of reach of where the kids were standing. He is a "vial" human being.

We don't need no stinkin Bonds in the Dodgers.

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 14:34:23
304.   Peanuts in My Shoes
From MLB Trade Rumors:

**Schmidt Deal Not Done?
Bernie Miklasz of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that the Cardinals have been told there's no deal yet for Jason Schmidt. This is as of 4:14 CST today. I quote: "DeWitt and Jocketty have been told that there's no deal yet -- and that they (Schmidt and his agents) would like to still have discussions.... so as far as the Cardinals are concerned, there's still reason to have discussion with Schmidt's agents... and I am told the Cardinals are making a "strong" offer."

2006-12-06 14:34:55
305.   Honoluludodger
303. "in" should be "on the Dodgers".

Sorry.

2006-12-06 14:35:46
306.   trainwreck
304
Ned is going to explode and never talk to an agent again.
2006-12-06 14:38:15
307.   s choir
You know, I was just thinking... why not give the Red Sox all the prospects they want? We can just flip Manny in two years for more prospects anyway.
2006-12-06 14:39:16
308.   Daniel Zappala
304 Yahoo has the same story now. Previous stories said that Schmidt had told his friends he had agreed to the deal. He may have been talking out of turn. Maybe he agreed to the deal with his agent, but his agent never finalized things with the Dodgers. Colletti is quoted in the Yahoo story as saying there is no deal.
2006-12-06 14:43:10
309.   regfairfield
I think Colletti has zero concept of park factors. Schmidt's PECOTA projection pretty much matches what I think he's going to do. The man is an extreme flyball pitcher who was playing in a cavern. Once he leaves that behind, his home run rate will skyrocket. Combine this with his worst strikeout rate since 2001, and it leaves us with a pitcher who isn't much better, if at all, than Brad Penny.
2006-12-06 14:48:48
310.   s choir
309 Schmidt is a better pitcher than Brad Penny. He has 100% better command, and has an awesome changeup, which he knows how to use. Penny has a great curve but an average fastball and no change as far as I can tell. Also, Schmidt gets better the later he goes into games, unlike Penny, who tends to implode at the 80-pitch mark. And for a guy who's lacking in command, the 80-pitch mark arrives around the 4th or 5th inning. Not good.
2006-12-06 14:50:28
311.   Eric Enders
310 You're selling Penny short. He has a really tremendous fastball, one of the best around. His command of it is shaky sometimes, but then you already docked him for that.
2006-12-06 14:53:21
312.   Greg Brock
309 I agree that Schmidt is an extreme fly ball pitcher in a park that give up the homers. I do think however, that whatever negatives Schmidt has will be vastly covered by the offense that a power hitter can bring. Dealing Penny helps get that power hitter.

But I do agree with your Penny/Schmidt comparison.

2006-12-06 14:53:54
313.   trainwreck
Why don't we just keep our pitching, see who most deserves to start and then if we need to trade a pitcher for a hitter at the deadline?
2006-12-06 14:55:04
314.   Daniel Zappala
312 As I was reading along, I was sure you were going to say that Schmidt's flyball tendencies would be vastly covered by Pierre's defense in centerfield.
2006-12-06 14:56:09
315.   Greg Brock
314 You are a crazy person.
2006-12-06 14:58:06
316.   Dane Bramage
I know this is off topic, but for those on vigilant Piazza watch, Yahoo just reported he's chosen Oakland over Texas...
2006-12-06 15:00:53
317.   ToyCannon
Park factors are nice and everything but at this time last year everyone was citing park factors as the reason Soriano would stink it up in RFK going from an extreme hitters park to an extreme pitchers park. I'm as shocked as everyone else that the opposite happened. Just saying, nothing is concrete except concrete.

Funny how Penny was the scourge of DT at the end of the year but now he's the equivelant of Jason Schmidt. Time heals all wounds.

2006-12-06 15:04:21
318.   regfairfield
317 I've never once changed my opinion on Penny, for what it's worth, though I'm one of the few.

Park factors were also the reason why I thought Tomko and Seo would be failures as Dodgers as a counter point.

2006-12-06 15:04:55
319.   gibsonhobbs88
304 - Here's hoping he is happy with 3 years instead of 4. If the Cards make a stronger 3 year offer, will Schmidt's agent take it back to Ned to see if he would up the ante. Given that Ned sees this as his one big pickup in FA, he might bite off more than is reasonable. If we do land Schmidt, then I offer Penny or Bills, Betemit or Laroche, Hall, and their choice of Elbert/Kersaw to Florida for Miggy Cabrera. He is one that I would trade some of our A+ prospects for. Put Miggy in RF, Ethier in LF, Nomar at 3B and Loney at 1B.

Potential lineup:
Pierre CF
Furcal SS
Nomar 3B
Miggy RF
Kent 2B
Loney 1B
Ethier LF
Martin C

I can dream, can't I? :)

2006-12-06 15:05:27
320.   trainwreck
Penny just had a bad end to the season, does not change who he is overall as a pitcher.
2006-12-06 15:06:18
321.   Eric Enders
I admit my tune on Penny changed a bit after he hurt the team with his macho antics during a pennant race. I still think he's a good pitcher, but I no longer think he's an untradeable one.
2006-12-06 15:06:32
322.   trainwreck
I would trade for Cabrera as well, but I would not offer LaRoche or Elbert and we cannot apparently trade Kershaw anyways.
2006-12-06 15:07:20
323.   s choir
There should be two different park factors for Dodger Stadium--one for day games and one for night games.
2006-12-06 15:08:24
324.   saltcreek
from rotoworld...."Although Jason Schmidt said earlier that a deal had been agreed to, Dodgers GM Ned Colletti refused to confirm that his team had signed the right-hander to a three-year, $47 million contract.
Besides the physical, there's apparently still a few details to be worked out. As a result, Schmidt is no longer commenting on the agreement. The soon-to-be 34-year-old Schmidt picked the Dodgers over the Cardinals and Mariners."
2006-12-06 15:08:29
325.   Greg Brock
There isn't a single prospect I wouldn't trade for Miguel Cabrera. I'd trade Kemp AND LaRoche for Cabrera.
2006-12-06 15:08:41
326.   ToyCannon
323
So true
2006-12-06 15:09:43
327.   thinkblue0
310-

Did we overpay for Schmidt? Probably. The thing is, I have no problem overpaying for guys on short deals who are at least good players.

In the end, Schmidt probably shouldn't really get more than 12 mill per....now he's around 16...so basically we bought a 12 dollar yacht for 16 mill. But at least at the end of the day we still have a 12 million dollar yacht.

Pierre on the other hand...we paid about 9 mill per for a player who probably wouldn't outproduce Loney...gah.

I've been saying for weeks that it wouldn't shock me to see us going after Bonds. I'm just scared that there's going to be a tear in the space/time continuum if this happens.

2006-12-06 15:10:27
328.   thinkblue0
325-

Anyone would be insane to turn down Cabrera.

2006-12-06 15:10:32
329.   s choir
320, 321 Penny's definitely not untradeable. His K/BB is great, even post-all star last year. And his K/9 went up last year. Someone will want him.
2006-12-06 15:12:19
330.   adraymond
A trade involving Bills and Elbert/Kershaw would bring a scourge on the House of Colletti.
2006-12-06 15:12:23
331.   Greg Brock
I would trade any three players for Cabrera. Dodgers, prospects, groundskeepers, Nancy B., Ned's mustache.

No Vin, though.

2006-12-06 15:12:27
332.   al bundy
Over the past 3 seasons, in 7 starts Schmidt is 2-2 pitching at Dodger Stadium. 43.1 IP, 30 Hits, 14 ER, 3 HR, 21 BB, 42 K. His BAA was .195 and ERA was 2.91.

He pitched 45 innings against the Dodgers in SF, gave up more HRs (5) and had a higher ERA, but a lower BAA.

2006-12-06 15:12:33
333.   bigcpa
I think of Schmidt as far more dominant than Penny. Last year Schmidt allowed 0 or 1 ER in 10 of his 32 starts... 9 out of 29 in 2005. True domination 31% of the time.

Of course Penny has allowed 1 or 0 ER 22 times in 62 starts since 2005. 35% of the time.

2006-12-06 15:13:55
334.   thinkblue0
329-

TONS of teams would take Penny in a heartbeat. Very good pitcher with a very nice contract. IF we are looking to deal him, we could have a nice little bidding war on our hands.

ESPN is saying we're after Mulder and Suppan as well. WOW.

Schmidt, Lowe, Wolf, Mulder, Bills and deal Penny for a bat? Discuss.

2006-12-06 15:16:09
335.   trainwreck
Mulder is in worse shape than the Oakland Coliseum. He is going to be the next Dreifort.
2006-12-06 15:17:07
336.   trainwreck
Ned has no confidence in any of our young guys aside from Martin.
2006-12-06 15:17:26
337.   thinkblue0
335-

Not condoning it...just a topic of discussion. But, you're right...would Suppan be a better option?

I dunno...unless we have a Heilman/Milledge deal on the table for Penny I'd just as soon keep him and have a dominating staff and let Loney patrol RF.

2006-12-06 15:17:43
338.   Eric Enders
My opinion of Mulder at this point is not much different from my opinion of Tomko or Hendrickson. Here's hoping Ned notices the giant fork sticking out of his left arm.
2006-12-06 15:18:44
339.   trainwreck
I do not want Jeff Suppan either. Schmidt or bust!
2006-12-06 15:18:46
340.   adraymond
Don't we have a much better left handed rotation option that Mudler in Kuo? Mulder was downright miserable last year. Not sure why it makes more sense to sign him to 10+ million than trusting Kuo.
2006-12-06 15:19:42
341.   jdm025
331
Not that we will get Cabrera, but I could see Ned looking for someone with similar impact besides Manny.

Now that he has this surplus, I wonder who is on his list. Crede, Wells, ManRam, Bay? The next couple of weeks will be very interesting for us in the cheap seats...

2006-12-06 15:22:31
342.   Robert Daeley
336 If that were true, Manny Ramirez would be shaking hands with Ned and Grady in front of a bunch of microphones, and the Boston Globe and Herald websites would be melting under the combined pundit onslaught discussing the Fenway Park potential of Kemp, Ethier, Bills, Kuo, and the vendor guy who tosses the peanuts behind his back (not a kid, but thrown in as a salary dump ;).
2006-12-06 15:25:10
343.   trainwreck
341
One of those 4 does not deserve to be with the other three. Guess which one? Heck Wells is not at their level either.
2006-12-06 15:28:03
344.   trainwreck
Bay or Cabrera would be very nice.
2006-12-06 15:28:35
345.   Eric Enders
I always wonder why people think Crede is so good. I know, the power of postseason television and all that, but is there some other reason I'm missing?
2006-12-06 15:30:30
346.   jdm025
343
Oh how I would love to see Jason Bay at Dodger Stadium. He would be worth quite a bit, but I don't think they would bite on Penny's contract.
2006-12-06 15:31:46
347.   Robert Daeley
I just had a weird thought -- what if Barry Bonds' mystery suitor were a Japanese team?
2006-12-06 15:31:59
348.   Eric Enders
Bay would be a spectacular acquisition. But I don't think Pgh is looking to get rid of him... didn't they just sign him to a long-term deal?
2006-12-06 15:32:41
349.   trainwreck
Not even the Pirates can be that stupid.
2006-12-06 15:33:38
350.   ToyCannon
336
Difference between trading your top prospects for immediate help or signing some veterans to help the youngsters through some learning curves at the major league level. I think Ned doesn't have enough confidence that he can just hand over the starting jobs to Kemp/Loney/LaRoche/Billingsly/Kuo but I think he has enough confidence in them that he expects them to earn those jobs over time. What Martin did last year may have made a lasting impression on Ned. I'm thinking that the scouts were telling him all winter that Martin was the answer and when he turned out to be the answer, Ned's respect for his scouts went up enough that he now has enough confidence in them that he will give the top kids opportunity but won't hand anything to them. Martin may have saved the farm.JMO
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-12-06 15:33:47
351.   Greg S
Can you imagine a package of Penny, Broxton and Betemit for A-Rod? Shoot, for that, Yanks should pay half his salary too. I'd do that deal and the Yanks would be crazy not to.
2006-12-06 15:35:12
352.   regfairfield
349 Bucs Dugout wanted to trade Bay because the Pirates will never be competive before he hits free agency. If they could get a package from say the Dodgers, they would have a pretty good team around 2009 or 2010. This assumes that Dave Littlefield wouldn't to something horrible, which he almost certainly would.
2006-12-06 15:36:03
353.   cloblue64
If Pettitte signs with the Yankees, maybe Houston would consider a three way deal that sends Lidge, a Dodger position player prospect, and a Houston pitching prospect to Boston; Manny to the Dodgers; and Penny to Houston.
2006-12-06 15:41:29
354.   ToyCannon
I think your overvaluing a pitcher who had a 6.25 ERA with 102 hits in 80ip post all-star break. Combined with his bad back, and previous bizarre nerve problem I'd be a bit surprised if he can bring the big bat we covet. At least Mulder had arm surgery to explain his terrible year, Penny never went on the DL and as far as I know has had no surgical procedures this winter. Maybe SD would be interested in Penny for Giles:)
2006-12-06 15:41:58
355.   trainwreck
350
I was referring more to 07. I personally think we should give the youngsters starting jobs. I do not want to see them waste time sitting on the bench, especially for lesser players.
2006-12-06 15:46:24
356.   gibsonhobbs88
I would take a Jason Bay if Cabrera is unattainable, as long as they are young productive players heading into their prime instead of players on the backside of their careers, I will accept giving a couple blue chippers with Penny to Pittsburgh or Florida. Anybody but Pujols or Ryan Howard is obtainable for the right price. JMO
2006-12-06 15:48:34
357.   Terry A
So since, according to the LA Times, Colletti most deeply desires players who want to be Dodgers, could we limit his contact to agents and players?

His best work (so far) this winter has been on the deals for Wolf and Lieberthal. Of course, both players allegedly took less because they wanted to be here.

Drew got his goat, Pierre must have pictures of Colletti with a goat, and now if the Schmidt deal falls through and we end up with Kirk Reuter...

(But seriously... if the Schmidt deal, as reported, proves true, I consider it a good move given this excessive market.)

2006-12-06 15:48:45
358.   ToyCannon
355
If you give all the kids starting jobs that is going to be quite a wall they all hit in Sept.
2006-12-06 15:50:59
359.   Eric Enders
358 I've always regarded that as an unsubstantiated myth.
2006-12-06 15:52:04
360.   standuptriple
347 Oh gets a Japanese team to "honor" him and sits him on the bench? How many fans would chip in? I'd kick down a $20. It would be glorious. It will also never happen, but I applaud the imagination.
2006-12-06 15:53:18
361.   Terry A
358 - By September, most of them will be in Tampa, won't they?
2006-12-06 15:53:22
362.   jdm025
345
I included Crede simply because he is at a position where we have an expendable player and he could provide us with some power. He is certainly not a peer of the other three, but he may be available.
2006-12-06 15:54:31
363.   trainwreck
358
Who's to say Ethier will hit a wall again. I have no idea they will hit a wall. They will go through slumps, but that does not mean they cannot produce better overall. Even so I think it is better for the long term future of the team.

I mean starting Ethier, Loney, Kuo, Billinglsey, and possibly LaRoche.

2006-12-06 15:57:20
364.   Marty
Bonds in a Dodger uniform is like matter vs. anti-matter. The world may explode. It would be surreal to see him break Aaron's record while playing for L.A.
2006-12-06 15:57:58
365.   trainwreck
ESPN just said Wells could fetch 20 million in free agency next year. HA! Laughable mang.
2006-12-06 15:59:07
366.   Steve
That's quite a wall Juan Pierre is going to hit on Opening Day.
2006-12-06 16:03:09
367.   Eric Enders
Good thing we got rid of that Reiser guy.
2006-12-06 16:05:16
368.   Honoluludodger
366. "That's quite a wall Juan Pierre is going to hit on Opening Day".

Why is there no love on this Board for "the little headed Juan". No doubt he will be overpaid, but won't he contribute to the offense?

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 16:07:15
369.   Gagne55
366 As long as it doesn't cause him to drop the flyball. ;-)
2006-12-06 16:10:39
370.   Steve
Like green onions contribute to e. coli
2006-12-06 16:11:01
371.   trainwreck
368
Most likely no.
2006-12-06 16:14:02
372.   ToyCannon
359
Your right, it was made tongue in cheek. I'd love to see the kids starting myself. Well, certain kids.
2006-12-06 16:16:24
373.   Honoluludodger
370. "Like green onions contribute to e. coli."

That is very funny. But is "the little headed Juan" really that bad. I understand that he "gets on base an awful lot".

Mahalo.

2006-12-06 16:17:18
374.   Greg Brock
I would like to see the kids play as well.

Dakota Fanning has a heck of an off speed pitch.

But I'd pass on Freddie Highmore. The Brits don't tend to hit for much power.

2006-12-06 16:17:39
375.   robohobo
365. The only teams that could pull the trigger on a 20 million dollar contract next year are the Yankees and the Mets. Pull the trigger until it goes "click"!

Maybe that's why the Yankees are staying quiet so far this off season. They will trade Johny Damon next off season and sign Wells or Jones.

2006-12-06 16:25:21
376.   trainwreck
372
I blame the internet, therefore I blame Al Gore.
2006-12-06 16:26:52
377.   trainwreck
Dakota Fanning irritates me.
2006-12-06 16:29:08
378.   D4P
It's a rare "child actor" that doesn't annoy me
2006-12-06 16:30:35
379.   trainwreck
http://tinyurl.com/t69gs

Braves trade Horacio Ramirez for Rafeal Soriano and are rumored to be trading Adam LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez.

2006-12-06 16:30:59
380.   trainwreck
378
Yeah, that is pretty much how I am.
2006-12-06 16:32:41
381.   marcdashark
I just don't get this Colletti character. Inconsistent is the operative word. To an extent, yeah, I don't mind some of the Giants-esque short-term deals (Lofton, Nomar) he pulls while waiting for the kids to come up. But then you have these moves like the Pierre long-term deal and the Lugo rental. What gives?

That, by the way, was the sound of me smashing my head on the keyboard.

2006-12-06 16:40:47
382.   marcdashark
I'd also lump the Furcal and Schmidt deals into the overpaying but lower risk category due to their lengths. I can accept those. But, for every good deal this guy has made, it is tempered by a real head-scratcher.

There is no question that we are truly led by one of the most inconsistent general managers in the game today.

2006-12-06 17:42:12
383.   ninjavshippo
just read bengie molina hooked up for 3yrs, 16M in SF on si.com. so does that mean we should just tack on a couple more CS to Pierre's total for the year now?
2006-12-06 19:22:27
384.   lakerican
BMolina is not that good anymore. Didn't you notice that in the World Cup, Puerto Rico catchers were Pudege Rodriguez and the youngest of the Molina's Bros, Yadiel, the Cardinal guy...

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.