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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Candygram for Gonzo
2006-12-07 08:25
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Perhaps the most striking stat from the 2006 season of Luis Gonzalez was that he had a career-high 52 doubles at age 39. That's where a lot of his former home-run power went - with the rest disappearing into the ether, as Gonzalez registered his lowest slugging percentage since 1997.

Gonzalez, whom the Dodgers signed overnight to a one-year, $7.35 million contract to start in left field, has had an unusual career. He never EQAd more than .300 in his 20s, then did so five times in his 30s. But now that he's pushing 40, you could say he's having traveling back to his youth. Andrew Grant of True Blue L.A. has more:

Gonzalez put up a serviceable .271/.352/.444 line last year, with several warning signs around it. The first is that his patience and power have been steadily declining every year since 2001. Right now, the only real value that Gonzalez has left is his ability to walk. If his patience takes another 10 point slide, that's pretty much out the door.

The other scary thing is that he did this in the BOB, a very hitter-friendly park. If you combine the decline that Gonzalez has been experiencing over the last half decade with moving from the BOB to Dodger Stadium, its not all that pessimistic to think that Gonzalez will hit something like .260/.330/.415 for the Dodgers. That must be close to replacement level for a corner outfielder.

Several people have interpreted the acquisition of Gonzalez as a sign that Dodger general manager Ned Colletti won't trade a prospect like Matt Kemp, James Loney or Andre Ethier. This might be true, but I wouldn't be sure of it. The Dodger lineup still lacks a hitter you can count on for 25 homers or a .500 slugging percentage, a problem that Colletti might be tempted to solve by sending off a package including prospects with a starting pitcher (a notion, depending on the trade principals, that could be good or bad - we can't know in the abstract).

But sure, the Dodgers could enter the season with Ethier in right field, Loney super-subbing for Gonzalez, Ethier and Nomar Garciaparra, Kemp coming up in June after he (hopefully) dominates AAA and/or when a veteran goes on the disabled list. (And by the way, though it's a point of pride for Colletti and Juan Pierre that Pierre plays 162 games, just as we wondered in the 1990s whether it could help Cal Ripken, Jr., I wonder whether Pierre's numbers might improve if he rested once in a blue moon.)

While the Dodger lineup doesn't look overpowering in the middle, it may be among the best in the National League top to bottom. While Pierre will have one of the lowest on-base percentages of a leadoff or No. 2 hitter, the Dodgers' No. 8 hitter (Ethier? Wilson Betemit?) could be the best around.

And if one thing seems clear about the Colletti-Grady Little regime, it's that they don't like handing starting jobs to rookies but they do like seeing the kids take them. If Kemp or Loney are hitting, eventually they will play. The Dodgers' more relevant bias against youth is that Little is more likely to pull a slumping kid out of the lineup than a slumping veteran.

I'm not excited about Gonzalez's signing, and I'm not convinced that the $15 million or so the Dodgers are spending on two sub-.800-OPS outfielders in 2007 is worthwhile. At the same time, I am very open to the idea that with superstar talent at a clear premium, there may be something to the idea of trying to dominate with depth, with supreme adequacy. Gonzalez might not be an ideal signing or even a sensible one, but there might be something to it. At any rate, the risk is on the low side.

Yes, I'm waffling. When I don't know, I don't know.

Comments (336)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-12-07 08:30:50
1.   DodgerHobbit
Hopefully when Gonzo opens the door it's the Landshark and he eats Gonzalez so he cannot uselessly plug up left field.
2006-12-07 08:35:52
2.   Greg S
The "BOB" is now Chase Field. Not nearly as fun to say but unfortunately, more accurate. Seems like Ned is doing what he did last year... filling the roster with a mix of aging vets and hungry prospects and letting them fight it out and earn playing time. I don't know that Gonzo makes us better but I also think he will sit if 2 of 3 from the Kemp, Loney, Ethier trio are tearing it up.
2006-12-07 08:36:28
3.   StolenMonkey86
"Need any help?"
"Oh, all I can get."

(fill in the blank for how this relates to the current situation)

2006-12-07 08:37:26
4.   StolenMonkey86
I think that like last year, the best thing that can happen to us is that the aging vets start to hurt themselves
2006-12-07 08:37:48
5.   LAT
One thing is for sure: there wil be no 9th inning back-to-back-to-back-to-back HRs with this line-up.

You have to give the D'Backs credit. The Mets have Green, we now have Gonzo and they have neither. We can only hope that Gonzo abuses the D'Backs the way Green abuses us.

2006-12-07 08:38:01
6.   StolenMonkey86
4- and I'm currently in around January 2007, so last year was 2006
2006-12-07 08:38:57
7.   Greg S
LA Times printed a rumor that there could be a Penny for Vernon Wells trade in the works. Are we now just pretending that we didn't sign Pierre?
2006-12-07 08:39:36
8.   imperabo
Has anyone commented on the value of delaying the arbitration/free agency years of someone like Kemp by signing a mediocre veteran to keep him in the minors longer? Seems to me part of the point of signing guys like Gonzo is to get more long term benefit out of the kids, still having control of them in their prime years.
2006-12-07 08:41:10
9.   StolenMonkey86
7 - as I said in an earlier post, centerfielders are the new shortstop. We'll probably end up picking up either Edmonds or Jones too
2006-12-07 08:41:29
10.   StolenMonkey86
Actually Baldelli or DeJesus is a bit more like it
2006-12-07 08:45:13
11.   JoeyP
Three pools of players:

Pierre, Gonzo, Wolf, Nomar

and

Jim Edmonds, Aramis Ramirez, Jason Schmidt, JD Drew

and

Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, James Loney, Hong Chi Kuo

Best maximize the talent on the Dodgers, all the well knowing you have a budget of 132 mils (the amount Ned has thus far spent on Wolf, Nomar, Pierre, Schmidt, Gonzales).

I'm not on the fence on this one.
I think Ned's done a really poor job of allocating funds.

He's spent alot.
But the sum doesnt really add up.

2006-12-07 08:45:49
12.   Jon Weisman
8 - That's a good, under-discussed point. Back when Guzman was the top prospect here, DePodesta said he didn't want to rush him up to the bigs in part so that he would retain more of his prime.
2006-12-07 08:46:17
13.   sub4eraplz
Why not use that money on Gagne for 4 innings of work? ...wait...
2006-12-07 08:47:02
14.   jdm025
7
I have read the same thing. The Mets are looking for a veteran SP, but are not high on Penny. I like the surplus that we are gathering, but it makes me wonder if Penny will the the one dealt. I think that it is more likely that a lower profile deal will emerge involving Hendrickson/Tomko/Stults.

Ned, don't mortgage the farm for Wells unless you can sign him to an extension.

2006-12-07 08:50:41
15.   Greg S
8. I really can't believe that we would keep Kemp or anyone else in the minor leagues if we thought he was ready to contribute in any real way right now. I guess it could be a factor in a close call but I think production is the determining factor of whether a guy comes up or not.
2006-12-07 08:50:48
16.   Terry A
"And if one thing seems clear about the Colletti-Grady Little regime, it's that they don't like handing starting jobs to rookies but they do like seeing the kids take them. If Kemp or Loney are hitting, eventually they will play."

Well said, Jon. And, to Colletti's credit, he's had a hand in building a pretty strong rotation, which will allow him to trade from a position of strength. (He doesn't have to trade a starter; he could put Billingsley and Kuo in Las Vegas to start the season.)

"No... Gonzo straight!"

2006-12-07 08:58:09
17.   LAT
"No... Gonzo straight!"

But those crazy routes are how Gonzo gets his exercise.

2006-12-07 08:58:58
18.   deacons317
I'm hearing that Hendrickson might go to the Cubs now for spare parts.

When does too much depth in the farm system become a problem? I think the answer is when the spots aren't available. Clogging the Majors with mediocrity (see Gonzo, Pierre, Anderson, Tomko and Hendrickson) seems to be a poor choice of fund allocation. At least Gonzo is a short-term fix.

You have to admire Colletti's approach to pay more now, and keep these guys for less time. I just wonder what happened with Pierre then...

2006-12-07 08:59:52
19.   jdm025
Though the Gonzo signing is not ideal, it means that we will not be trading for someone like Jacque Jones and that we will keep our farm nucleus intact.

My feeling is that Ned is mostly finished save for dealing for some spare parts using guys like Hall and Tomko. Personally, I like what we have this year, though we won't be putting up too many 6 run innings on anyone. Only one bad deal (Pierre) and a lot of short term deals with guys that want to be here and NO KIDS GONE. I like our chances to get to the NLCS with this team and then take the next step in 2008 with Loney, Kemp, and Elbert all on the big club.

2006-12-07 09:06:27
20.   Greg S
I have to believe that we are going to make one more big move (trade). We have too much starting pitching and too many teams need starting pitching. We also have more prospects than can realistically all play and teams need young talent. Something's got to give.
2006-12-07 09:09:19
21.   Sushirabbit
It does seem a little odd, to have Ethier, Repko, Werth, Anderson, Pierre, and Gonzales. SuperAdequate. Yep.

Also, I was OK with Valentin. Boom injured and out at the beginning. And I was OK, even happy, with Mueller. Boom injured and out at the beginning. And now Gonzalez. Seems like wasted money to me. Maybe I'll be wrong again. Let's Hope.

2006-12-07 09:10:49
22.   JoeyP
it means that we will not be trading for someone like Jacque Jones

I dont think trading for someone like Pat Burrell would have been bad though.

2006-12-07 09:10:59
23.   Jonny6
I think I have finally figured out Colletti's rationale on the Pierre and Gonzo signings. He likes Martin so much that he wants to reduce the chance of injury with those risky plays at the plate. For 2007, all singles with a runner on second will now be automatically conceded runs, saving us from biting our fingernails in worry as Martin will avoid getting bowled over by any overaggressive baserunners.

Unfortunately, we may have created new opportunities for plays at the plate, as runners on first will now likely try to score on singles into left and center fields.

2006-12-07 09:11:09
24.   Sushirabbit
And we know Kemp could fill in and maybe Delwyn Young, too.
2006-12-07 09:15:09
25.   jdm025
20
I think that you have brought up a good point that I have not really considered. We have a 25-man roster and by my count, here are the young'uns (sorry, I'm from Louisiana) that could realistically be on the big club:

Kemp
Loney
Kuo
Miller
Elbert (mid-season)
LaRoche
Stults (maybe a stretch)

That is almost 30% of our roster. You're right. Something is going to have to give.

2006-12-07 09:18:08
26.   Greg S
25. You left out Ethier Repko, Martin, Betemit, Broxton Billingsley (and sometimes Werth). They all count as young'uns in my book.
2006-12-07 09:19:50
27.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
As I've already said over at BBTF, I can't imagine the Dodgers signed Gonzo with the thought of having him play full-time.
Here's his splits vs. LHP:
2006 - 193 PA, 259/332/408/740
2005 - 192 PA, 269/359/389/748
2004 - 150 PA, 244/353/535/888
2003 - 245 PA, 223/302/400/702
2002 - 228 PA, 272/377/450/827
Aside from the small(er) sample size spike in '04, this looks like a player you want to platoon.
So, who plays left when there's a southpaw on the hill? Ethier hit them well (351/378/468/846), but who knows if that was a one-season fluke.
2006-12-07 09:20:41
28.   jdm025
26
True. I was mostly thinking about guys that are likely to start the year in AAA. I hope that Loney is not relegated to having to spin his wheels in Vegas when he hit .380 there last year.
2006-12-07 09:22:24
29.   Andrew Shimmin
Everybody look at the sidebar and exult: somebody found a dumber way to spend forty-five million bucks than on Juan Pierre.
2006-12-07 09:22:27
30.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I for one don't agree with some of the pessimissm expressed by Ned's critics. Although I find the Pierre deal only tolerable, the Schmidt deal I think will be the best contract handed out this winter to a free agent pitcher (Matsusaka may end up a real thing, but that like the Carpentar extension is a special case of sorts), and with Saito, I think our bullpen will be pretty good. I think our lineup will be fine in the end, and with so many kids waiting in the wings, I think it could be potentially a pretty high octane offense. Combined with the pitching, I think we'll be a serious contender this season.

WWSH

2006-12-07 09:24:05
31.   Terry A
I assume another move will be forthcoming, too. Hopefully that will be a team's salary dump and will therefore not cost the Dodgers too many (or any) prospects. Though trading Penny now would be a classic case of selling low, I would rather deal him than nearly any of our prospects right now.
2006-12-07 09:24:37
32.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Also, between Nomar, Kent and Gonzo, there's chances for injuries aplenty, so whoever the reserves are they'll have more than a few opportunities to start.
2006-12-07 09:24:55
33.   Greg S
28. Unfortunately, I don't believe that Nomar can realistically play anywhere but first. We seem to be filling up the outfield and it make me wonder where that leaves Loney. I think it leaves him fighting with Ethier and Gonzo for playing time while Kemp scratches at the door.
2006-12-07 09:26:14
34.   50 years a Dodger Fan
"it means that we will not be trading for someone like Jacque Jones"

What makes you think so? Colletti is like a woman with a new checkbook. Spend, spend, spend. At some point (already?) he is going to end up with too many players he can't trade for legal reasons or undesireability, and the kids are the only ones he can jettison. McCourt should have left the stupid dork in Frisco where they kept him out of the cash drawer.

2006-12-07 09:26:59
35.   Robert Fiore
As a No. 8 hitter, how about Pierre? It means admitting you're an idiot, but it's probably optimal for the offense.
2006-12-07 09:28:48
36.   Robert Daeley
34 Insulting the Dodger front office and womankind in one short paragraph -- that's gotta be a record.
2006-12-07 09:29:21
37.   Marty
Best. Headline. Ever.

"Gonzo just pawn in game of life"

2006-12-07 09:30:03
38.   50 years a Dodger Fan
36 Nah, I coulda done better...
2006-12-07 09:30:46
39.   Greg S
36. He's an angry elf.
2006-12-07 09:31:38
40.   Andrew Shimmin
D4P has a new soul mate. Hope the wife doesn't take it too hard.
2006-12-07 09:32:42
41.   still bevens
Where in the batting order did Gonzalez hit for AZ? 5th?
2006-12-07 09:35:16
42.   GoBears
34. On behalf of all DodgerThoughts youngsters:

What's a checkbook?

2006-12-07 09:36:02
43.   Marty
42 It's that thing that sits next to the typewriter.
2006-12-07 09:37:36
44.   Ben P
Two things:

1) The Post-Dispatch claims that because the Dodgers haven't actually signed Schmidt yet the Cards still think they have a shot at him.

http://tinyurl.com/ybs844

2) The rumor that interests me most is that we would now trade Penny and Ethier for Vernon Wells. Regardless of whether that's true, I'd be open to trading Ethier in the right deal. I like him but I think he might be overvalued right now. I'd rather lose him and keep Kemp and Loney.

2006-12-07 09:37:42
45.   Andrew Shimmin
41- Most of his PA were in the three spot, second most in the fourth, last year. Sixth in one game.
2006-12-07 09:39:35
46.   sanchez101
So, assuming Kemp or Loney doesn't push anyone out the door in spring training, that leaves this lineup in Las Vegas, right?

2B Abreu
SS Hu
1B Loney
CF Kemp
3B LaRoche
LF Young
RF (minor league veteran)
C Bellorin

Miller could be in the rotation and Meloan in the pen.

I would kinda rather watch this team than the actual Dodgers. It just seems more exciting.

To fill that RF spot, the Dodgers could look to get back Micheal Restovich from the Cubs for Hendrickson: .293/.374/.560 in AAA Iowa.

2006-12-07 09:41:28
47.   imperabo
15 Someone who can "contribute in any real way" at age 22 is likely to be a star at 27. Why would you want to trade the star 27 season for the "contributing" 22 season? You have to consider that value in looking at a pickup like Gonzo.

Look at what the Phils are getting out of Ryan Howard. Keep him on the shelf til he's 25 then let him dominiate from day 1. That's resource maximization.

2006-12-07 09:43:05
48.   Eric Enders
25, 26 Meloan is another who will start the year in AAA, unless he makes the big league roster, which is a realistic possibility.
2006-12-07 09:43:26
49.   sanchez101
44. If that rumor proves to be true (HA!) then Colletti made the best move of the offseason. But, if he could get Wells, why would he have signed Pierre? I can't believe anyone would take a Wells rumor seriously, besides, it seems like most of the moves (and especially the trades) by the Dodgers the last couple years weren't rumored all that much before they were announced.
2006-12-07 09:44:30
50.   jdm025
44
I REALLY like that deal that you just proposed if we do in fact have Schmidt. I like Ethier, but if we could get Wells, even for a single season, that would put us over the top:

Furcal
Pierre
Nomar
Wells
Kent
Gonzo/Loney
Martin
Betemit

Schmidt
Lowe
Bills
Wolf
Kuo

That is your NL West Champion right there...

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-12-07 09:44:37
51.   Greg S
That's betting the bird in the hand for the two somewhere in the middle of the rainforrest. If Kemp promises to be Ryan Howard in 3 years (but only Juan Pierre until then) then I'll go with that. Otherwise, I still say produce and you shall play.
2006-12-07 09:46:23
52.   Eric Enders
47 The thinking may be something along the lines of, well, Matt Kemp and Luis Gonzalez are likely to have similar production in 2007. So for the $7 million it took to sign Gonzo, you've purchased Kemp's age 27 season, when who knows, he could be hitting 40 homers or somthing. And you've also avoided punting the 2007 season.
2006-12-07 09:46:46
53.   GoBears
But seriously, folks... as completely insane as the "put mediocre or worse veterans ahead of prospects who might already be better" plan is, and as redundant as trading a good SP for yet another veteran OFer seems, I do see an opportunity to restock. Seems to me that Colletti should trade Hendrickson, Hall, Dessens (if he can), Tomko, and other flotsam for future draft picks. Wait, can you trade for draft picks in baseball (I might be confused here). If not picks, then minor leaguers who are several years away. Whereas DePodesta faced a farm system with nothing ripe to harvest, Colletti's farm is bursting at the seams. Time to re-plant the back forty.
2006-12-07 09:47:59
54.   Eric Enders
49 Because he doesn't yet know if he can get Wells, and if you don't have a centerfielder, a lot of balls are going to roll to the wall.

That doesn't explain why he signed Pierre instead of just re-upping Lofton, though.

2006-12-07 09:48:40
55.   Jacob L
I think the best assessment of the Gonzo signing (or Pierre's for that matter) is that we're all dreaming up subsequent moves for other outfielders.
2006-12-07 09:51:22
56.   Eric Enders
53 You can't trade for draft picks, no. Even after they've been drafted they can't be traded for a year.
2006-12-07 09:52:01
57.   sanchez101
Who would take those guys for good young talent? GM's aren't nearly as dumb as fans think, but go ahead and delude yourself if thats your fancy.

BTW, the "put mediocre or worse veterans ahead of prospects who might already be better plan" is hardly 'insane'. It seems like the best plan unless you (a) want to win it all now or (b) don't care about going to the playoffs. Never mind the concept of letting the prospects coming up at there own pace.

2006-12-07 09:53:10
58.   Eric Enders
If we'd only offered arbitration to freakin Maddux and Gagne, though, we'd be in good shape for the 2007 draft. As it stands now, all we've done is exchange the #20 pick for the #22 pick.
2006-12-07 09:53:57
59.   imperabo
52
So, the question is, are the Dodgers being being very short sighted or very far sighted? People always make the assumption that signing an old player is a short term move, especially if it holds back prospects, but with a one year contract like Gonzo's I think it's more of a look to the future. You're actually making the team younger in the long term, and getting the most value out of your prosects. Of course, if they turn around and trade those prospects then that theory is out the window.
2006-12-07 09:56:39
60.   sanchez101
55. Not I. I'm pretty happy with the way the offseason has gone, thus far. I also think Colletti's pretty much done, unless someone offers him great trade for a starter, or some minor trade involving Hendrickson for a spare part (ie, minor league reliever or utility player).

Colletti's made one bone-head move (Pierre) one move that looks very good (Wolf) and the rest look decent enough but we'll have to see how the chips fall on the field for final judgement.

2006-12-07 09:58:38
61.   deacons317
I think Colletti is getting depth for a trade and to supplement injuries.

We've got the old and the young. We're going to have plenty of injuries to deal with (like in the past few years).

He's going to make moves, no doubt. But he better still keep some guys around to fill-in for Gonzo, Nomar, Kent, etc...

2006-12-07 09:59:03
62.   sanchez101
I don't think we'd get compensation for Maddux even if we did offer him arbitration, players can only give their former teams compensation once, according to the former CBA.

The way that the Dodgers have treated Gagne this offseason speaks very poorly for the health of his right arm.

2006-12-07 10:04:00
63.   Don Tordilla
"Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, turned down a guaranteed one-year, $4-million Dodgers offer with incentives that could have increased the value to $10 million, a source close to the negotiations said." - from Henson's article today. What part of that speaks poorly for the health of his arm?
2006-12-07 10:04:57
64.   Dane Bramage
62
I think it's more likely his back that's concerning them than his arm. Even Gagne made comments to the press about a conditioning program to strengthen his "leg power" for this year - sounds like a bum back to me...
2006-12-07 10:07:02
65.   Disabled List
59 Except, there was this bit in the Times' story this morning: The Dodgers made a two-year offer to Gonzalez earlier Wednesday, but the 17-year veteran opted to take a higher salary for one year.

Why on earth would Ned want Gonzo for two years if he was looking to the future? I have my doubts on whether Gonzo is even going to put up replacement-level numbers this year, never mind 2008.

Ned does not trust his prospects at all. Injuries opened the door for Martin, Ethier, Broxton and Billingsly last season, but Ned will not intentionally open up any spots for rookies. As Ned sees it, a useless has-been like Gonzo is preferable to Kemp in 2008. Not just this season. 2008.

2006-12-07 10:07:04
66.   sanchez101
63. I hadnt seen that yet
2006-12-07 10:08:37
67.   Dane Bramage
Oooo,errr...

"bum back" - I can't mix body parts here. I should have said "bad back"...

2006-12-07 10:09:34
68.   GoBears
but go ahead and delude yourself if thats your fancy.

Thanks. I enjoy being called stupid before breakfast.

Duh. But isn't part of Logan White's supposed magic that he is better at evaluating talent than most of his counterparts on other teams? I'm not saying we should swap Tomko for the consensus #1 pick 2 years ago. I'm saying let White find someone he likes in other teams' systems, who might be extractable for a team that needs a back-of-the-rotation starter now.

2006-12-07 10:14:39
69.   imperabo
Giving a job to Kemp at 22 is a no win situation. If he sucks, like he did last year with an OPS+ of 84, then you've just wasted some of his sevice time for a negative result. If he's good, then the odds are down the road you're going to wish you'd held him back, because when he hitss his prime he'll be GREAT, and you'll have to pay him 20 million per.
2006-12-07 10:15:43
70.   Bumsrap
These are the 2006 leading homerun hitters that have played outfield in order of most homeruns hit. Some of the spellings were shortened to make fit.

Griffey could be had perhaps for Penny and he fits the aging vet aquisition profile.

The younger players look good but their teams grew them just like the Dodgers need to do if they want good young players on their team.

Player HR RBI BA OBP
Sorano 46 95 0.2767 0.3512
Berkman 45 136 0.3153 0.4195
Dye, 44 120 0.3154 0.3846
Beltran 41 116 0.2745 0.3880
Jones 41 129 0.2619 0.3632
Dunn, 40 92 0.2335 0.3651
Lee, 37 116 0.2997 0.3554
Bay, 35 109 0.2860 0.3962
Hall 35 85 0.2700 0.3455
Ramirez 35 102 0.3207 0.4391
Swisher 35 95 0.2536 0.3716
Holiday 34 114 0.3256 0.3868
Guerero 33 116 0.3295 0.3820
Ibanez, 33 123 0.2891 0.3534
Wells, 32 106 0.3028 0.3575
Hunter 31 98 0.2783 0.3355
Burrell 29 95 0.2576 0.3880
Frncour 29 103 0.2596 0.2930
Monroe 28 92 0.2551 0.3009
Sizemor 28 76 0.2901 0.3747
Griffey 27 72 0.2523 0.3157
Jones, 27 81 0.2852 0.3339
Bonds 26 77 0.2698 0.4544
Byrnes, 26 79 0.2669 0.3129
Cabrera 26 114 0.3385 0.4305
Thames, 26 60 0.2557 0.3333
Wilnghm 26 74 0.2769 0.3560
Cuddyer 24 109 0.2837 0.3622
Damon, 24 80 0.2850 0.3587
Kearns 24 86 0.2644

2006-12-07 10:18:32
71.   saltcreek
Gil Meche is getting 55-60 million over 5 years...wow
2006-12-07 10:18:46
72.   MartinBillingsley31
This Gonzo signing tells me that Ned doesn't like building a starting team with prospects.
I think Ned likes the prospects as backups only except Martin (who plays the position most baseball people consider the position you least need offense from).
Ned's a veteran guy who inherited a strong farm system and has decided to use the farm system as insurance only.
That kind of thinking will never get you over the top, but it will keep you hanging around, or, keep you on the map, or, keep you in contention (but not for a championship).

The Gonzo and Pierre money could have gone to Zito, and the dodgers would have been a way better team with Zito and without Gonzo and Pierre.

2006-12-07 10:18:55
73.   saltcreek
from the royals
2006-12-07 10:19:38
74.   hart01
One very expensive late season pinch hitter.Glad its not my $$$.
It now seems less likely though that we will be losing significant young talent unless of course there is a blockbuster trade out there.That may be the silver lining.
2006-12-07 10:21:53
75.   Terry A
(For Andrew.)

So here I sit, waylaid by the powerfully somnambulant effects of a head cold and a grant-writing workshop (a potentially lethal combination), basking in the plasticized atmosphere of a small but friendly auditorium in Little Rock, Arkansas – where, it must be noted, middleweight champion Jermain Taylor will fight tomorrow night, and where the Angels' AA franchise (the Travelers) play, and where Rob McM (he of 6-4-2 fame) occasionally visits his in-laws and intakes a near-toxic dose of our most treasured in-state commodities: humidity and Southern Baptists – and I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps, we've got this all wrong; that perhaps, just perhaps, our hand-wringing and naysaying and all-out bloviating might be somewhat unjustified – that our illustrious general manager and his consortium of yes men and geriatric scouts and Kim Ng (who, Bill Singer be darned, defies stereotyping and blind categorization and is the graceful, forceful center of balance for our franchise) indeed has a plan, an intricate plan carefully orchestrated and even more carefully executed, a plan that on its face appears so stultifyingly dumb – dumb as a slice of boiled ham, if you will – as to be downright insulting (and beneficial to your average Juan) but in reality is remarkably brilliant in its scope and tack – a real tour de force of baseball front-officery, a house blend of all things SABR and sexagenarian scouts, perhaps even writ large on a display pad that's kept in Ned Colletti's Orlando suite and is closely guarded by Bill Mueller himself, a plan that should – nay, will! – bring joy to Mudville (population: us) that we haven't known since 1988, except for fleeting, momentary vignettes – the Finley homer, the Beltre season, the Gagne streak – that provide faint promise but no sustenance for those who want so badly to again have – what's that word – hope.

2006-12-07 10:24:45
76.   Bumsrap
72 The Gonzo and Pierre money could have gone to Zito, and the dodgers would have been a way better team with Zito and without Gonzo and Pierre.

Which year were you talking about?

2006-12-07 10:26:09
80.   Bumsrap
72 The Gonzo and Pierre money could have gone to Zito, and the dodgers would have been a way better team with Zito and without Gonzo and Pierre.

Which year were you talking about?

2006-12-07 10:27:31
81.   Johnson
68 I'm saying let White find someone he likes in other teams' systems, who might be extractable for a team that needs a back-of-the-rotation starter now.

Given that the Royals, of all teams, just gave Gil Meche (a pitcher clearly no better than Tomko, and perhaps worse) $11M a year, the possibility of shipping a "cheap" Tomko off for useful minor leaguers does not seem farfetched at all.

I would say try to deal Hendrickson first (because for some reason my gut says Tomko has more value in the pen) but if either of these guys can land us an outfield prospect or two, pull the trigger. Kuo/Billingsley, Miller, Alexander, Houlton, maybe Meloan or Elbert...we've got bullpen replacements. And the market for "proven starters" looks to be a seller's market.

2006-12-07 10:27:41
82.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 72

I think there's a big difference between not wanting to hand youngsters starting jobs before ST starts (think Tracy and Joe Thurston and Edwin Jackson), and only conceiving of them as backups. And I think assuming that Ned is doing the latter due to a series of short-term contracts (Wolf and Gonzo--Pierre is a different issue, because Kemp may not be able to play CF) is purely conjecture in my view.

WWSH

2006-12-07 10:28:15
83.   Jonny6
If the Gagne report in the LA Times is true, I think I can understand why a GM would never want to deal with Boras again. An offer for 4 million guaranteed plus incentives paying up to 10 million for a guy that basically was on the shelf for two seasons (while being paid a handsome 20 million dollar sum), that's beyond fair - that's a huge risk for the team and an obvious nod toward a guy who gave this team and this city an amazing couple of years.

If Gagne leaves for a similar deal, with a slightly larger amount guaranteed, I for one will be pretty pi$%ed off at Gagne. I realize that a million bucks isn't chump change, but when you've just made 20 million dollars for contributing next to nothing the past two seasons, than that "hometown discount" that the player himself spoke of certainly seems warranted.

Baseball is a business, no doubt, but Boras seems to pursue dollars with a single-mindedness that borders on obsession and irrationality. When players are making sums of money so incomprehensibly large, is it really necessary to squeeze every last drop of blood out the proverbial turnip at the expense of all civility and decency in the negotiation process. When it comes to making his clients rich, Boras certainly has no peer in the agent world. I just wonder if his clients don't walk away feeling dirty after the whole process is done, especially considering that if they had another agent they still would be rich beyond belief. At the end of the day (or his career), will Schmidt sit down and lament the fact that he only made 150 million dollars with his agent when he could have made 152.2 if he had Boras?

2006-12-07 10:28:29
84.   Andrew Shimmin
I tip my hat to Terry "316" A.

If you think I'm going to read that monstrosity, though, you're out of your mind.

2006-12-07 10:28:53
85.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 76

Erhhhh... I've heard that Zito's asking for over 100 mil over more years than we've committed to Gonzo and Pierre.

WWSH

2006-12-07 10:30:14
86.   StolenMonkey86
I'm guessing 6/120 for Zito
2006-12-07 10:30:22
87.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 83

Well, you're assuming that players have other priorities than that of money. If money is the main thing they're after, then Boras does a fine job. If Gagne has decided that money really is his highest priority, then oh well, I suppose.

WWSH

2006-12-07 10:30:32
88.   Terry A
Well, that hurts.

I go to all that effort, and you won't even read it? I can't win for losing with you, Shimmin, which I guess is why you're so darned edgy.

2006-12-07 10:34:06
89.   Bumsrap
85 That was my point made to 72, I just can't figure out how to bold the reference. Control B gives me a popup.
2006-12-07 10:35:02
90.   Terry A
"Control B gives me a popup."

Hey, let's keep it clean. This is a family website.

2006-12-07 10:35:40
91.   Robert Daeley
84 I did read it, and you're missing out.
2006-12-07 10:35:44
92.   Bumsrap
88, I am not going to read that long of a paragraph either. Hit your Enter key every once in a while, randomly if you have to.
2006-12-07 10:36:31
93.   still bevens
I read 75 and found it to be hilarious.

"guarded by Bill Mueller himself"

2006-12-07 10:36:59
94.   Bumsrap
90, I wasn't complaining, just not making a bold statement.
2006-12-07 10:37:00
95.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 89

Ooops... shoulda read more carefully.

I think one uses asterisks before and after what you want to bold

WWSH

2006-12-07 10:37:32
96.   Andrew Shimmin
88- It's just sour grapes. Are sour grapes edgy? It's also that, now I must retaliate, so, there's a new way to spend my free time. I have a feeling there's going to be a new Thank You For Not, before long. . .
2006-12-07 10:39:20
97.   Bumsrap
90, what is that joke about being so poor that if I didn't have a popup I wouldn't have had anything Christmas morning.
2006-12-07 10:40:37
98.   Bob Timmermann
88
I read it. It wasn't bad. Faulknerian!
2006-12-07 10:42:27
99.   Terry A
Out of respect for Jon (and Andrew's edginess), I hereby drop out of Longest Sentence Quest.

Should Andrew choose to break my record (and I encourage him to do so), I will not attempt to re-retaliate.

2006-12-07 10:44:49
100.   Bumsrap
75, I got talked into reading it and I am glad I did. Good stuff.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-12-07 10:46:32
101.   Andrew Shimmin
Oh great. Now you're Hank Aaron, and I'm Barry Bonds.

Alright. I'm taking a year off, to rehabilitate my image, by mentoring children, and by hectoring teenagers about steroids. If, a year from now, I'm still able, I will take my shot at 317.

2006-12-07 10:51:11
102.   Sam DC
Nuts to you Bob, I was just comin in with "Faulknerian."

Nice work Terry.

2006-12-07 10:53:07
103.   Terry A
Thanks, all. (And apologies to Jon.)

I still have a head cold.

2006-12-07 10:54:10
104.   Linkmeister
99 Aw, c'mon, we need a sentence arms race.

I read it and enjoyed it; I didn't even need to be persuaded to do so.

I'd hesitate to call it Faulknerian, but then I can't abide Faulkner. "My mother is a fish" indeed.

2006-12-07 10:56:49
105.   AlmostGagne
Last night, after I read that we had signed Gonzo, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't believe it and I was so disappointed.
I see the Dodgers as being made up of either young relatively unproven players and high priced players who are past their prime. I eagerly await the day that we spend money on a player entering his prime.
Obviously, the hope is that our young kids (Loney, Kemp, Either, Martin) turn into all-stars who can carry our team...but until we have a player like that, I won't really be satisfied. I think we deserve to have a someone like that, someone who can be a consistent top-tier player for years.
2006-12-07 10:58:19
106.   50 years a Dodger Fan
89 Hit the asterisk, Type whatever you want in bold, hit the asterisk again. Whatever is between the two asterisks will be in bold after you submit. I think...
2006-12-07 11:03:09
107.   Andrew Shimmin
In the spirit of [insert nation of your choice], I've decided to renege on my promise, and, furthermore, to cheat.

As Terry A has been known to say, "So here I sit, waylaid by the powerfully somnambulant effects of a head cold and a grant-writing workshop (a potentially lethal combination), basking in the plasticized atmosphere of a small but friendly auditorium in Little Rock, Arkansas – where, it must be noted, middleweight champion Jermain Taylor will fight tomorrow night, and where the Angels' AA franchise (the Travelers) play, and where Rob McM (he of 6-4-2 fame) occasionally visits his in-laws and intakes a near-toxic dose of our most treasured in-state commodities: humidity and Southern Baptists – and I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps, we've got this all wrong; that perhaps, just perhaps, our hand-wringing and naysaying and all-out bloviating might be somewhat unjustified – that our illustrious general manager and his consortium of yes men and geriatric scouts and Kim Ng (who, Bill Singer be darned, defies stereotyping and blind categorization and is the graceful, forceful center of balance for our franchise) indeed has a plan, an intricate plan carefully orchestrated and even more carefully executed, a plan that on its face appears so stultifyingly dumb – dumb as a slice of boiled ham, if you will – as to be downright insulting (and beneficial to your average Juan) but in reality is remarkably brilliant in its scope and tack – a real tour de force of baseball front-officery, a house blend of all things SABR and sexagenarian scouts, perhaps even writ large on a display pad that's kept in Ned Colletti's Orlando suite and is closely guarded by Bill Mueller himself, a plan that should – nay, will! – bring joy to Mudville (population: us) that we haven't known since 1988, except for fleeting, momentary vignettes – the Finley homer, the Beltre season, the Gagne streak – that provide faint promise but no sustenance for those who want so badly to again have – what's that word – hope."

That's 324!

2006-12-07 11:05:10
108.   Terry A
Edgy!
2006-12-07 11:07:38
109.   s choir
please don't tell me we need ten rules for the sentence race too.
2006-12-07 11:09:25
110.   Steve
You guys can write all the long, "Faulkner-ian" sentences you want, but there's nothing like the joy that comes from a simple, straightforward sentence like:

"I'm hearing that Hendrickson might go to the Cubs now for spare parts"

You can't beat the genius of that with a stick.

2006-12-07 11:20:15
111.   fan 4 40 plus
89 FYI all there is a FAQ on the fairpole software here:
http://tinyurl.com/yzu2do
2006-12-07 11:31:20
112.   PadreJeremy
When you dont have a clue about what you are doing, just buy all the players you can and pray for the best.

Id rather have one of the promising young Dodgers hitters or pitchers with a minimum salary pitching or playing in the field daily along with signing Zito instead of Gonzo and Pierre for the same money.

Is Daniel Snyder buying this team?

2006-12-07 11:36:30
113.   bhsportsguy
Based on the current set of economics, the numbers of players entering free agency in their prime are becoming less and less. Either, they will get extended (if smart) or they where will be so few of them, that amount of money spent will be outrageous.

So most teams are going to be built with a combination (if fortunate) of young (rookie - 2 year) players and vets that may be going into their decline. If fortutnate, you might have a few guys in their prime but more likely those will be home grown.

2006-12-07 11:46:00
114.   DeucesAreWild
What do we hear more often from Vinny in 2007:

a) "A rabbit is loose" when Juan Pierre reaches base.

b) Any mention of Gonzo's triplets.

2006-12-07 11:46:41
115.   Robert Daeley
"Another former Cy Young winner, Eric Gagne, will probably leave as well, although the Dodgers' offer of $4 million guaranteed and another $6 million in incentives might be enough to keep him in Los Angeles. Gagne is expected to decide in a matter of days."

http://tinyurl.com/yc2klw

2006-12-07 11:48:01
116.   bojangles
Terry, Andrew: thanks a bunch, or about 320...

yesterday's Globe, I think, surrounding Red Sox
moves re: the too-patient, less-than-the-sum-
of-his-parts Drew and the how-will-he-play-on-the-big stage Lugo:
Summing:
Graphic:
Cyberstats:
Disuccs: (sic)

Disuccs. Say n'more.

Note to adversaries: if tempted to reference, please don't turn "too-patient,
less-than-the-sum-of-his-parts" into
"the tragically awful, worthless, J.D" 'Preciate it....

Back to exile....

2006-12-07 11:52:30
117.   bigcpa
114 Should also be noted that Vinny pronounces Jason Schmidt "Jay-shon Smit."
2006-12-07 11:53:23
118.   Sam DC
No Klinsmann, sorry Greg.
2006-12-07 11:56:45
119.   Bob Timmermann
114
Don't forget about hearing about Robert Wadlow every time Chris Young pitches.
2006-12-07 12:01:58
120.   Eric Stephen
In Gurnick's latest column on Dodgers.com, he again mentions how the Dodgers were "blindsided" by J.D. Drew. I refuse to believe the Dodgers' front office had no idea Drew's opt out was at least a possibility.

It strikes me as odd how some players are covered or reported on different than others.

2006-12-07 12:02:08
121.   Bob Timmermann
118
Perhaps I can coach the U.S. National team. I have a German surname. My grandfather was a semipro soccer player in the 1920s. I could adopt some of his tactics to the U.S. team.

I believe it involves a lot of hitting people in the groin.

2006-12-07 12:04:09
122.   goblue1
1. Ted Lilly
2. Gil Meche
3. Ned, you're a genius (Schmidt)
4. You have to be kidding me with # 1 and 2
2006-12-07 12:05:19
123.   Sam DC
On the other hand, Greg, there's a picture of James Taylor up at mlb.com right now.
2006-12-07 12:08:03
124.   Dark Horse
114-My own curiosity gravitates right now to Vin's numerous references this year to "the old baseball expression...like trying to sneak a lambchop by a wolf," in describing a fastball that's just been crushed into the pavilion.

I both wonder whether that isn't one of Vin's own coinage and hope to high heaven we now find a taker for Bret "Lambchop" Tomko.

2006-12-07 12:10:31
125.   Terry A
121 is even funnier when one imagines Dwight Schrute saying it.
2006-12-07 12:10:46
126.   Bob Timmermann
I believe the phrase about sneaking a lambchop past a wolf is attributed to Curt Simmons and he said it in regard to Henry Aaron.
2006-12-07 12:12:45
127.   Eric Enders
126 I've seen it attributed to Koufax also.
2006-12-07 12:13:18
128.   Jon Weisman
120 - When my grad school girlfriend dumped me, I was blindsided, though later others told me that I shouldn't have been. (Apparently, I missed the hints of her own opt-out clause.)

I was angry, but I had been willing to renegotiate.

2006-12-07 12:16:44
129.   Eric Enders
Yeah, but what was her OPS+?
2006-12-07 12:17:03
130.   Robert Daeley
120 And it strikes me as odd how some folks seem to not get how the Dodgers were blindsided. If a player tells everyone within earshot (reporters, the front office, fellow players) for the better part of a year that he is enjoying being on the team, being in the city, loves raising his child here, is looking forward to next season, and specifically says that he wouldn't exercise the option for the above reasons. But why am I paraphrasing?

"I don't plan on (using) it," he said Tuesday. "I've enjoyed my time living in Los Angeles. That's what it was there for – to make sure (wife) Sheigh and I didn't come all the way across the country (from their native Georgia) and get stuck in a situation we didn't like."

About using the option: "You know what – I don't think so," said Drew, who also has a limited no trade clause. "Ultimately it's my decision, and we're happy where we're at. We love our house in Pasadena. My wife is happy. She's made a lot of friends in our neighborhood and with the other players' wives. That's really the thing that was nerve-wracking about it (free agency) for me.

"At some point, you make those commitments and you stick to them."

http://tinyurl.com/yz2vjh

Did the front office know it was a possibility? Absolutely. Were they blindsided when it happened, despite all previous evidence to the contrary? How could they not be?

2006-12-07 12:20:06
131.   goblue1
drew will get run out of Boston before that contract is 1/2 over with.
bank that.

imagine, they want Manny gone... and his #s buy a little more looking the other way i would think.

2006-12-07 12:21:59
132.   Blaine
Hey Bob, Robert Wadlow is my third cousin. I even bear his name, although I go by my middle name. I just happened to be a couple of hours from Alton, Illinois when they had his 80th birthday celebration. That was a rather interesting weekend. I am also jealous that I never reached 6 foot, though.

Never heard Vin mention him when Chris Young pitches.

2006-12-07 12:34:54
134.   Bob Timmermann
132
Vin told the story at least three times about "The Alton Giant."
2006-12-07 12:34:59
135.   trainwreck
I had a dream that Ned ran a little corner shop that sold all kinds of protein bars and protein candy in his spare time. I went and decided to argue with him for awhile on why Pierre and Gonzo suck and you should just play the youngsters. It was interesting because during all our debates I would periodically ask him for a certain protein bar.
2006-12-07 12:35:23
136.   xaphor
129. Over time you start to use TB over OPS if only for your own pride. The young'uns are impressed by the counting stats. :)
2006-12-07 12:35:24
137.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
133 - LoDuca proves his leadership yet again!
2006-12-07 12:35:54
138.   trainwreck
And he would go get it and suggest other kinds of stuff.
2006-12-07 12:35:58
139.   JoeyP
120--

Ken Gurnick is a shill of management. He has just as much objectivity as Josh Rawitch does. None.

2006-12-07 12:39:28
140.   trainwreck
We will lose so many female fans if we trade Ethier. Think of the marketing!
2006-12-07 12:40:47
141.   JoeyP
Were they blindsided when it happened, despite all previous evidence to the contrary?

Citing quotes to reporters as evidence is the first lapse of judgment by Ned Colletti, if they were indeed 'blindsided'.
Honestly, does anyone take as the stone cold truth what an athlete says to the media? Or even a GM says to the media?

They werent blindsided.
They were just hoping Drew was stupid enough to give them a hometown discount. He didnt.

For a guy that held out on the Phillies when he was drafted, is this really a surprise? He went to the highest bidder.

A player signing with the higest bidder is a 'shock' to the front office? Geez. Talk about damage control.

2006-12-07 12:41:27
142.   fan 4 40 plus
So what is the timeline for reducing the roster from our current 43 to 40 ? How much time does the team have to trade or non-tender Toby Hall and others ?
2006-12-07 12:41:45
143.   Honoluludodger
128. Aloha. I'm sorry that your girlfriend dumped you in grad school. I admire that you were willing to renegotiate. I had a similar experience, and renegotiated an extra season with my grad school girlfriend. Unfortunately, she could negotiate like a young Boras, and ultimately the renegotiated season was not satisfying. What does this mean for Coletti? Nothing, except that you should not renegotiate long term deals with girlfriends after they have exercised their opt out clause.

Mahalo.

2006-12-07 12:42:22
144.   Eric Enders
"Ken Gurnick is a shill of management. He has just as much objectivity as Josh Rawitch does. None."

That's gotta be a joke, right? Gurnick hates the Dodgers, has ever since he was a TSN reporter in the 1980s. In the press box during games, all he does is make snide and/or condescending remarks (and loud ones) about the team and management no matter which regime it may be. The fact that he can even remain employed by MLB.com is a pretty good argument for the notion that MLB doesn't require its reporters to be shills.

2006-12-07 12:43:27
145.   Blaine
134
I am glad that my parents didn't give me Robert Wadlow's middle name. I think I would have been beaten up a lot in elementary school if I went by Pershing.
2006-12-07 12:44:47
146.   Terry A
144 - I heard that one time, Gurnick's badmouthing got so loud it woke up Tony Jackson.
2006-12-07 12:44:50
147.   still bevens
142 And are we basically going to be trading people that are inflating the 40 man for minor leaguers since there no room left?
2006-12-07 12:47:35
148.   s choir
all he does is make snide and/or condescending remarks (and loud ones) about the team and management no matter which regime it may be.

So do many of us, but that doesn't mean we hate the team. Maybe he's just an unsatisfied fan.

2006-12-07 12:48:38
149.   trainwreck
144
Who does he root for?
2006-12-07 12:52:12
150.   Eric Enders
149 The Dodgers to crumble. Other than that, I don't know who he roots for.

I guess he might be a closet Dodger fan who just enjoys wallowing in misery. Actually, he's exactly the type who might run DodgerBlues.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-12-07 12:57:43
151.   dzzrtRatt
"Dominate With Adequacy" could be the title of a best-selling business management book.

If only our current Administration was committed to the "Dominate With Adequacy" principle...

2006-12-07 12:58:04
152.   blue22
147 - Wait, wasn't the Rule V draft yesterday? If so, how did LA get away with overstocking the 40-man?
2006-12-07 13:00:41
153.   Greg Brock
Hey! There is a picture of JT. Thanks Sam!

And Klinsmann's ploy is just a negotiating tactic.

Do you hear me! Negotiating tactic! (begging)

Gotta go...

2006-12-07 13:01:32
154.   Eric Enders
152 Schmidt hasn't officially signed and LuGo was signed late at night after the Rule 5 draft ended. Not sure about Lieberthal.

In case you were wondering the Dodgers neither picked anybody nor had anyone picked from them.

2006-12-07 13:02:20
155.   regfairfield
152 I think the Rule V is based off rosters from November 20th.
2006-12-07 13:02:31
156.   Robert Daeley
141 His Philly refusal is hardly the same thing, as he said all along at that time that he didn't want to go there.

What hometown discount are you talking about? He had a guaranteed $11 million/year for three years. If this were truly a "highest bidder" deal -- like, say, the current Gagne situation -- you might have a point. But it's not. He chose to give up that combo of money and years for a new combo.

Of course it wasn't a surprise in hindsight. Of course he had the right to do what he did.

You apparently choose to dismiss everything the various parties said in public, including JD Drew and Colletti, based on reporters being shills or dupes or tools. There is a fine line between skepticism and cynicism, and I think you and I are on either side of that line.

2006-12-07 13:03:04
157.   Johnson
While I'm fairly apathetic about the Gonzo signing, I don't really think that Gonzo need block either Loney or Ethier in any significant way. Nomar has already indicated his willingness to play multiple positions and has already logged almost 300 innings at third base. I'll assume that Pierre and Furcal will play every day for all intents and purposes, and clearly Martin will catch with occasional bouts of Lieberthal. That leaves us with five fielding positions and six "everyday" players to fill them (assuming Kemp and LaRoche start out in Vegas) - Nomar, Kent, Gonzo, Betemit, Ethier, Loney. Imagine the following six lineups:

First Second Third Left Right [Bench]
Nomar Kent Betemit Gonzo Ethier [Loney] (nominal Opening Day lineup)
Nomar Kent Betemit Gonzo Loney [Ethier]
Nomar Kent Betemit Ethier Loney [Gonzo] (Gonzo needs his rest!)
Loney Kent Nomar Gonzo Ethier [Betemit]
Loney Kent Betemit Gonzo Ethier [Nomar]
Loney Betemit Nomar Gonzo Ethier [Kent]

If we rotated through these lineups, giving Gonzo two days off every seven games and everybody else one game off per seven, we get 138 starts out of everybody but Gonzo (115). There is a bit of rounding error there (five starts to pass around), and we don't account for occasional starts for Anderson, Martinez, Saenz, (Werth/Repko?), but we don't account for injury, either. So it would help keep everybody fresh while neither blocking Loney/Ethier or forcing anybody to play more than two positions (and Gonzo/Kent only one). Sure, I'm probably thinking too hard, but it doesn't look so bad to me, and we cross the Kemp/LaRoche bridge when we come to it. Thoughts?

2006-12-07 13:03:37
158.   fan 4 40 plus
152 - There was a post earlier this week that indicated that the Rule V draft was based on the 40 man roster in November.

142 Is there a resource showing options left on Dodger youngsters ?

2006-12-07 13:05:16
159.   blue22
152/154 - Thanks. Was there anyone not picked from the organization that was a surprise/relief?
2006-12-07 13:06:06
160.   adraymond
Sometimes, bored at work, a guy wanders over to the message boards on Dodgers.com to see if there's anything interesting going on. Then he reads this:

"Umm Loney Doesn't play .284, 4 homers and 18 RBI's doesn't warrent a starting spot on a contending team for a first year player. Check out Ryan Howard's stats as a rookie (22 homers 63 RBi's) , or Chris Duncan's from last year (.293 22 homeruns). Those kind of players are the ones that make you clear out a starting position them...not Loney"

Then, with much less confidence in man, he returns to DT.

2006-12-07 13:08:28
161.   JoeyP
144---My opinion of Gurnick is based on how he's written his MLB articles the last several years. He always struck me as a PR guy that writes generic stories for the team website.
2006-12-07 13:08:31
162.   Eric Enders
159 Baseball America had predicted that Casey Hoorelbeke (aka Rare Earth, Jr.) would be plucked from us, but he wasn't.

"Signed as a nondrafted free agent in 2003 out of Lewis-Clark State (Idaho), Hoorelbeke has been a reliable bullpen arm in each of his three pro seasons. He spent all of 2006 at Double-A Jacksonville, going 2-2, 2.63 in 72 innings and followed that up with 1-0, 2.84 numbers in 19 innings in the AFL. Hoorelbeke also started his pro career throwing from a high three-quarters arm angle, but the Dodgers dropped it down slightly before last season. He has average stuff across the board, with an 87-89 mph fastball, 82-84 mph slider with good late life and an 80 mph changeup."

2006-12-07 13:08:48
163.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Can Gonzo be traded at the deadline this year?
2006-12-07 13:09:17
164.   trainwreck
160
I would only go to the Dodgers.com board if we signed Barry Bonds.
2006-12-07 13:09:24
165.   regfairfield
159 Nope, the only guys that were avialable from the Dodgers were Sergio Garcia, B.J. LaMura, Danny Muegge and Alvis Ojeda. None of them had any chance of going anywhere.
2006-12-07 13:10:54
166.   regfairfield
162 Hoorelbeke only has three years expirence. He's not eligible until next year.
2006-12-07 13:12:13
167.   Eric Enders
166 Hmm... I was under the impression BA did their homework, but I guess not.
2006-12-07 13:12:48
168.   regfairfield
167 When did they write that, because he would have been eligible under the old rules.
2006-12-07 13:13:39
169.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
162 - After hearing that news, I just want to celebrate.
2006-12-07 13:18:21
170.   Benaiah
Before Jon started this up, I would hang around the espn message boards. The things that go on there defy description (ask D4P). It is like a seedy sex board and an old folks chat session, where 90% are either illiterate or using assumed identities, and yet it was also marginally about the Dodgers.
2006-12-07 13:20:58
171.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
170 - Weren't Al-Qaeda operatives, pre-9/11, using sports message boards to communicate? I think I read that in Sports Illustrated's "Signs of the Apocalypse."
2006-12-07 13:22:01
172.   Eric Enders
168 They wrote it two days ago.

Not that it matters, but upon further review, it looks like they might be correct. Hoorelbeke was signed in 2003 and players signed at age 19 or older (he was 23) have only four seasons before they have to be protected. 2003, 04, 05, 06.

Hoorelbeke didn't pitch the year he was signed, which is probably the reason for the confusion. Maybe he had an arm injury?

2006-12-07 13:24:04
173.   Eric Enders
170 "where 90% are either illiterate or using assumed identities, and yet it was also marginally about the Dodgers."

Sort of like the Kevin Malone regime.

2006-12-07 13:25:15
174.   dsfan
I know it's Frank's money and the marketplace is goofy, but anyone else thing Gonzo is worth even close to $7 million? He wants to stay in the NL West. Seems to me, you could get him much cheaper.
2006-12-07 13:28:15
175.   Marty
Gonzales seemed like perfect Giant material to me.
2006-12-07 13:28:48
176.   zman15
Marlon Anderson 297/354/513 produced better numbers than Gonzo 271/352/444 and although he'll never win any gold gloves out there-far superior than Gonzalez. Whatever happened to Ned's comment to Ethier when he slumped last yr that Andre was the starting left fielder. Colletti cut from "Giant mode" will never give prospects a chance. (Martin excluded) 7.5 Million when position was covered-money better spent giving it to me-I'd stay home and others would do better job than Gonzo-who couldn't throw Kent and Drew out at the plate from SS!
2006-12-07 13:30:12
177.   blue22
176 - I'd assume Ethier is the starting right-fielder now, until a subsequent trade proves otherwise. I don't Ned is going back on his word. In fact, moving from left to right is a promotion.
2006-12-07 13:32:18
178.   sanchez101
174. My guess is that Gonzo (can we call him the muppet from here on out? I know Steve won't mind) was looking for a multi-year deal and accepted the Dodger's one year offer.

To answer your question, he had a WARP of 4.1 last year. According BP's MORP (WARP's value in dollars) that was worth ~$6.4 million. But that was in pre-2006-offseason money, so yes, it seems like Gonzo is probably worth something like $7m if he plays everyday. Does that make the deal a lose-lose proposition?

2006-12-07 13:35:54
179.   Eric Enders
176 You forgot the unofficial Dodger Thoughts rule that anytime the words "Andre" and "Giant" are used in such close proximity, a Princess Bride quote must follow.
2006-12-07 13:38:28
180.   gcrl
anyone want a peanut?
2006-12-07 13:39:32
181.   Marty
Have fun stormin the castle!
2006-12-07 13:40:10
182.   JoeyP
Why do the Royals need Gil Meche?
Secondly, why on top of that, did they give him 5/55?

Dayton Moore is supposed to be the brains behind the Atlanta Braves farm system. What exactly does he see in Meche?

2006-12-07 13:40:41
183.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
178 - So if MORP is correct, then Gonzo is getting paid what he's worth.
(Dennis Green voice)
"He is who we thought he is!"
2006-12-07 13:41:14
184.   Terry A
Meche has six fingers on his right hand.
2006-12-07 13:43:31
185.   jdm025
184
I don't even know how to respond to that...
2006-12-07 13:43:53
186.   bigcpa
BTF has a ZIPS projection up on Gonzalez and some depressing commentary.

http://tinyurl.com/wf95r

2006-12-07 13:44:37
187.   dsfan
178--

Thanks for the feedback. Did you factor Gonzo's age into the valuation?

2006-12-07 13:45:20
188.   saltcreek
186. OUCH.....
2006-12-07 13:47:14
189.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
There's no way Gonzo gets 500-plus at-bats this coming season.
2006-12-07 13:47:47
190.   SteveLee
An outfield of Gonzo, Pierre and Ethier. The NL will be taking extra bases on the Dodgers constantly. The Molina brothers would run on those guys. This will not be fun.
2006-12-07 13:50:38
191.   saltcreek
189. unless he gets injured he will. we are paying the guy 7 million
2006-12-07 13:51:37
192.   gibsonhobbs88
176 - Yes. And as Jon said in his column, his former HR prowess is now down to doubles. Reality check Ned: This is not Gonzo of 2001 you are getting.
Status on offseason moves so far, JMO:

Thumbs up:
Nomar
Schmidt
Lieberthal
Saito resigned

Thumbs down:
Gonzo
Pierre (# of years makes this a downer)

Wait and see:
Wolf (If healthy now could be strong #3 or 4)

Cross your fingers:
Loney, Broxton, Laroche and Bills remain in Dodger Blue!!

2006-12-07 13:51:41
193.   trainwreck
191
I am pretty confident he will get hurt and/or suck.
2006-12-07 13:52:31
194.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Outfield arms are nice but not necessary; I'd rather have fly-catchers, if I had to choose one skill over the other. (Not that I'm saying the Gonzo, Pierre and Ethier troika will remind anyone of Garry Maddox.)
2006-12-07 14:03:33
195.   s choir
190 Ethier has a decent arm. Not overpowering but strong and accurate.
2006-12-07 14:05:22
196.   blue22
Anyone have any info on Loney's arm, or how it compares to Gonzo? He was a pitcher in high school, but that wouldn't necessarily translate to a good OFer arm.
2006-12-07 14:07:34
197.   Marty
I seem to remember hearing Loney has a very good arm
2006-12-07 14:10:32
198.   gibsonhobbs88
194 - However, when you play a team of agressive baserunners like the Mets, two bad arms in left and center don't bode well. Ethier is fine in right like 195 mentioned. Like a poster said earlier, Pierre might do better with his speed to run it back to Furcal. "You're killing me Smalls"!. Had to do a "Sandlot" reference.
2006-12-07 14:16:02
199.   Disabled List
175 Gonzales seemed like perfect Giant material to me.

So did Pierre, and in all honesty, Nomar. (Old, injury-prone, "proven veteran," etc.).

We really are turning into a shining outpost of San Francisco Giants-brand baseball. How depressing.

2006-12-07 14:18:02
200.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Either posted nine baserunner kills in 109 games in LF. That's 13.3 per 162 games - by far the best figure on the team.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-12-07 14:18:37
201.   dsfan
Loney was a tremendous power pitcher in HS, if he's being doing his long toss, which should have been required, he likely retained much of that arm strength and suppleness. It's not certain that it would translate into him being an effective thrower as an OF, but there's reason for optimism.
2006-12-07 14:19:57
202.   blue22
199 - It's different. SF did the hoarding of old guys because of Bonds' dwindling window of opportunity and the lack of a vision beyond Bonds. LA is doing so because of the kids and the future (well, you know, I hope so). A bit misguided (since many, including myself, would like to just cut out the old guy altogether), but he's approaching it in the right way - short deals with easily replaced veterans.
2006-12-07 14:20:03
203.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
199 - Did I miss the overnight development of a farm system in Giants-land?
2006-12-07 14:20:39
204.   dsfan
Gonzalez appeared washed up every time I saw him in the second half. Late on fastballs he used to crush. Was he worn out? Perhaps. He was playing a lot. Was it a sign that he's toast? Perhpas. He's old. Was he a player who previosly relied on greenies? Impossible to know. But he looked washed up in the second half, and I saw him often. Perhaps a reduced work load will pay off for him in 2007.
2006-12-07 14:21:14
205.   blue22
201 - I said that mainly because strong-armed catchers typically have a tough adjustment to outfield play when required. The throw is "different".
2006-12-07 14:24:51
206.   still bevens
204 Grady has experience with coddling players so we have that going for us. I honestly think Grady will take the Drew approach with a good amount of our guys and Loney wont have trouble finding playing time.
2006-12-07 14:27:34
207.   jdm025
203
I agree. Has anyone noticed that the worst thing that has happened so far is Kemp (isn't ready quite yet anyway) is blocked for a year? Loney will end up probably being a super sub for Nomar and in the OF corners. Kuo may be blocked for half a season, but pitchers break down all the time and he is ready to step in if one of our SPs break down. I would much rather have Gonzo block one of our kids and save them for a real deal like Wells or ManRam than dealing them for scraps like some GMs do (Minaya, Sabean, Krivsky).

If Sabean were running things, Loney and Kemp would have been dealt for a "proven veteran" long ago. This is not the LA Giants.

2006-12-07 14:27:48
208.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Gonzo's 2006:
April - 242/349.527/876
May – 299/381/381/762
June – 217/330/293/623
July – 389/448/705/1.153
August – 237/310/395/705
Sept/Oct – 247/302/371/673
2006-12-07 14:29:37
209.   dsfan
Every time Ned signs a veteran some of us posit that these stopgaps actually will enhance the chances of the young guys reaching their potential and of the Dodgers maximizing most or all of the ogranization's advanced young talent. Maybe we're just guilty of wishful thinking. He continues to bring in veterans at less than bargain prices (Pierre and Gonzalez, to name two and obviously Pierre isn't a stop gap).
I was hoping that Ned was impressed by how the kids saved the team's season last year. At the time I was thinking that the success of Martin and Ethier, and the early success of Kemp -- something like 7 home runs in his first 42 at-bats -- would make Ned a bit more patient with the kids.

I'm not saying he should just hand jobs to all of them. I still believe that stop-gap veterans can facilitate the development of young players and that you can extend their 0-6 work-serive clock in a reasonable way that doesn't curb development, so much the better.

I believe many of the Dodgers' old players will suffer injuries, creating more opportunities in 2007. But it's growing harder to ignore Ned's preference for veterans and if the Wells rumors are true we can expect 2-4 young players to be on their way out.

2006-12-07 14:32:26
210.   mountainmover
Reguarding Post 166:
"Hoorelbeke only has three years expirence. He's not eligible until next year."

He was eligible because it's not "experience" but rather "signing date" and he signed a year earlier.

2006-12-07 14:33:04
211.   Steve
Has anyone noticed that the worst thing that has happened so far is Kemp (isn't ready quite yet anyway) is blocked for a year?

This is not true. The worst thing that has happened so far is signing Pierre. The second worst is signing Gonzalez. The problem is not blocking prospects, that is a red herring. The problem is that these players are replaceable by people in the stands. Or put another way, good players can block all the prospects they want.

2006-12-07 14:36:30
212.   adraymond
208
The triplets were at grandma's in July.
2006-12-07 14:38:20
213.   blue22
Jon...if you're here...does your updated payroll total include Toby Hall (I see he's on the "others" list with no $ value)?

If not, LA is at ~$118M (with Schmidt)?

2006-12-07 14:38:50
214.   Honoluludodger
212. We should insist on a "triplet" story limit during each Dodger broadcast.

Mahalo.

2006-12-07 14:41:53
215.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
212 - I have to wonder if the stay-or-go drama at last season's end got to Gonzo, resulting in a loss of production.
Sorta like how Lo Duca's numbers dropped off terribly in 2002, when he was taking part in the union's negotiations over the CBA.
Paulie, pre-ASB: 326/384/458/842
Paulie, post-ASB: 233/268/341/609
2006-12-07 14:41:59
216.   jdm025
211
Ahhh yes the Pierre signing. I definitely am in denial on that one to the point that I honestly forgot, but I disagree on the Gonzalez signing. At the very least, it could be debated that Gonzo will provide a one-year competition for Loney/Kemp and will allow them to compete for a job in an environment where there is less pressure to perform right away. My feeling is that Gonzo will start about 110-120 games with Loney seeing more than his fair share of PT.
2006-12-07 14:42:18
217.   Bumsrap
Below are some of the best young and cheap arms that a few teams would like to have such as the Devil Rays who want to reduce payroll and could move Crawford to do it.

Brandon McCarthy, SP, White Sox:
Anthony Reyes, SP, St. Louis:
Adam Wainwright, SP, St. Louis:
Ervin Santana, SP, L.A. Angels:
Matt Garza, SP, MIN:
Rich Hill, SP, Chicago Cubs:
Jason Hirsh, SP, Houston:
Adam Loewen, SP, Baltimore:
Aaron Heilman, SP, N.Y. Mets
Mike Pelfrey N.Y. Mets
Phil Humber N.Y. Mets
Joel Zumaya, RP, Detroit:
Mike Gonzalez, RP, Pittsburgh:
Phil Hughes, Yankees
Adam Miller, Cleveland
Humberto Sanchez Tigers,
John Danks Texas
Cincinnati's Homer Bailey.

Assuming the Dodgers want to kep their young pitchers, might Cards or Mets go after Crawford?

If the Dodgers traded Penny, Tomko, Hendrickson to Devil Rays for Crawford, would it be easier for the Rays to those three individually to get a couple of the pitchers listed?

If this crazy thing happened would Crawford understand that he would backup Gonzo, the promised one?

2006-12-07 14:44:03
218.   trainwreck
217
Devil Rays would never do that deal. Remember the Devil Rays screw us, not the other way around.
2006-12-07 14:44:24
219.   Steve
At the very least, it could be debated that Gonzo will provide a one-year competition for Loney/Kemp and will allow them to compete for a job in an environment where there is less pressure to perform right away.

Yes, on those terms, a debate can be had. It's the "Look how many doubles he had last year" talk that makes one quiver.

2006-12-07 14:44:49
220.   blue22
217 - If the Dodgers traded Penny, Tomko, Hendrickson to Devil Rays for Crawford

I don't understand the rest of that sentence, but with this kind of beginning, I don't think the rest matters.

2006-12-07 14:47:31
221.   Honoluludodger
I had Gonzo for $3 on my fantasy team back in the late 90's. That was a good pick up. If we had the Gonzo of the late 90's, I'd be stoked. I'm afraid the 2007 Gonzo may be better suited for assisting Colletti in the front office. Oh wait, we already have a player on salary doing that.
2006-12-07 14:48:00
222.   Marty
Hendrickson's already done the Devil Ray thing
2006-12-07 14:48:29
223.   Bumsrap
If the Dodgers traded Penny, Tomko, Hendrickson to Devil Rays for Crawford, would it be easier for the Rays to trade those three individually to get a couple of the pitchers listed?

Like Kerry, it was only one word I left out of the apparent joke.

2006-12-07 14:50:03
224.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
We had bad OF arms last year, too:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=70
2006-12-07 14:50:09
225.   blue22
217 - BTW, Humberto Sanchez is property of them New York Yankees now.
2006-12-07 14:54:46
226.   jdm025
219
Expectations are key here. I don't see Gonzo as a .300/.380/.900 guy anymore. I see him as equal in ability to Ethier or Loney for this season (obviously later on, they will be better, perhaps even this season). I see him as a guy that you can count on to reliably to hit .270, hit about 15-20 homers and have a total of about 60 extra base hits.

For that, in this market, $7 mil is not too bad and he may just be a positive influence/coach for Ethier and Loney. Gonzo could also be above previous production because he may play 20 fewer games per year.

2006-12-07 14:54:48
227.   Bumsrap
At the very least, it could be debated that Gonzo will provide a one-year competition for Loney/Kemp and will allow them to compete for a job in an environment where there is less pressure to perform right away.

At some point Nomar instead of Loney should be part of that competition. I would start Nomar at third and play him there until he drops. Loney would be at first and if LaRoche starts shoving his way into the lineup at third, Nomar would start shoving Gonzo out in left.

2006-12-07 14:58:19
228.   Honoluludodger
217. Adam Miller, Cleveland
Humberto Sanchez Tigers,
John Danks Texas
Cincinnati's Homer Bailey.

Aloha, that was an excellent compilation. I'm curious. Why is Homer Bailey referred to in your list as "Cincinnati's Homer Bailey" while the rest of the players are listed by name and team? Is it, perhaps, Mr. Bailey's trade name like "Minnestoa Fats" or "Southside Johnny". If so, I suggest that we bestow a similar title on a Dodger.

I nominate the "Dodgers Juan Pierre".

2006-12-07 14:58:25
229.   Robert Daeley
214 With the impending spring arrival of the Hamm/Garciaparra twins, you know the triplets will be mentioned along with them constantly. ;)
2006-12-07 14:59:00
230.   jdm025
227
Is Betemit destined to be a 5th infielder or is he a legitimately good player whose potential is untapped. I am fairly new to this board so I was not here when the trade for him happened last year. How does Betemit project in the next few years?
2006-12-07 14:59:48
231.   blue22
228 - Our backup catcher's name is "Westlake Village's Mike Lieberthal".
2006-12-07 15:00:45
232.   Bumsrap
228. How about Colletti'$ Pierre? Has a better ring.
2006-12-07 15:01:09
233.   Honoluludodger
229. A similar moratorium should be imposed concerning broadcast comment on the twins as well.
2006-12-07 15:02:02
234.   Honoluludodger
232. I love Colleti'$ Pierre.
2006-12-07 15:02:05
235.   Bumsrap
Whittier's Garciaparra

The Duke of Flatbush

2006-12-07 15:02:28
236.   blue22
230 - Similar to Joel Guzman, who like Betemit was one of the game's top prospects when he played shortstop. Otherwise, he's just another power prospect who could hit 30 HR's just as easily as he could OBP .300.

I think LA is optimistic, but not sold on him.

2006-12-07 15:03:53
237.   overkill94
211 I can see your point on Pierre, but it has become apparent that management's basis for that signing was having a "true centerfielder" and "true lead-off hitter". The problem with your argument otherwise is that good players will get multi-year deals, so they truly would be blocking our young players. Someone like Dellucci might be marginally better than Gonzo next year, but what do you do with him the two years after when the kids are ready? You could say to trade them, but those plans don't always work out the way you hope.
2006-12-07 15:06:50
238.   Honoluludodger
230. The point could also be made to a lesser degree about Vernon Wells. As a gold glove center fielder his stats are eye popping. But if you move him to right field, his stats are certainly above average but not extraordinary.
2006-12-07 15:09:30
239.   LAT
Gagne turns down $4M guaranteed in search of $5M? Staying in an environment where you are comfortable has to have some significant value. Surely for a guy who has made $20M over the last two years its worth $1M to be in a place where you have had success, especially when you haven't pitched in two years. More importantly, Dodger fans are going to give him far more leeway than any new city will. This too has to be worth a million bucks to him. He ought to ask Beltre if he doesn't think so.

Jon, Nice Blazing Saddles reference in the headline.

2006-12-07 15:18:05
240.   Marty
Why don't we just sell advertising rights on each player?

Planters' Juan Pierre
Honda's Jeff Kent
Dos Equis' Rafael Furcal
Geritol's Luis Gonzales

2006-12-07 15:19:09
241.   paranoidandroid
239
Gagne thoughts:

We paid him a million dollar buyout by denying the $12 million option, right? We couldn't offer him arbitration because that would have guaranteed him close to 10 mil. No arbitration means no draft picks either, a moot point if we sign him ourselves. If we are offering him $4 guaranteed and he wants $6 guaranteed, we aren't too far apart. Is the hang-up on incentives? Wouldn't we want him to reach incentives?

In this market, giving Gonzo 7.5 million when we can have Ethier/Loney play for 500,000 is fine if we have the money. I don't mind paying Gonzo to sit if the others are producing. But we eat 7 million. We are paying Fatdalis to "pitch" for KC, can't we take a two million dollar chance on the most exciting Dodger pitcher since Orel and Fernando?

If we are willing to give him 4 million and he wants 6, we can get a deal done, can't we? Isn't signing Gagne a great marketing move for the lay Dodger fan who simply loves to cheer for a guy they like?

Sign Eric Ned!

2006-12-07 15:21:21
242.   gibsonhobbs88
239 - That's because the "evil incarnate" posing as agent Scott Boras is whispering bad advice in his ear. Boras would never consider those factors you mentioned. Where a player would be a better fit means nothing to him. He just wants the biggest offer so he can make more commission. How many millions do you really need anyway?
If Gagne like the community and the fans here would be more leniant than say Boston, why would you go to that pressure cooker?
Boras ignores those factors based on his past record of negotiating!! Good faith negotiating is an oxymoron in his book! JMO
2006-12-07 15:24:51
243.   Honoluludodger
241. I respectfully disagree. After being paid twenty million for sitting the last two years Mr. Gagne should sign for the very fair offer that the Dodgers made to him. My guess is that it's not about money or team loyalty, Gagne probably wants to be a closer. Saito and Broxton will do nicely for us. But there are many teams that will be delighted to have Gagne and he should sign with one of them.
2006-12-07 15:26:03
244.   paranoidandroid
Dodger players favorite movies:

Olmeda Saenz "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes"
Juan Pierre "Slappy Gilmore"
Jeff Kent "Boogie Nights"
Nomar Garciappara "Goal!" or "The Doctor"
Luis Gonzalez "Muppets Take Manhatten"
J.D. Drew "All About the Benjamins"

Free Agent favorite movies:

Jose Mesa "Close Encounters with the Third Grade"

2006-12-07 15:26:24
245.   Sushirabbit
185

I don't even know how to respond to that...
The proper response is:

"Hello. My Name Is Inigo Montoya. You Killed My Father. Prepare To Die."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

2006-12-07 15:28:05
246.   StolenMonkey86
I can't wait for when Epstein holds out on Matsuzaka. I have to wonder if Boras clients would look at this guy and think again about whether he's really looking out for their interests, given that everyone else involved stands to benefit from anything over $3 million a year offered to Matsuzaka.
2006-12-07 15:29:33
247.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
The pride of Los Alamitos HS hangs up his (gold) glove:
"First baseman J.T. Snow announced his retirement Thursday after a 15-year major league career, and he will rejoin the San Francisco Giants in several roles.
"Snow has been hired by the Giants, his team from 1997-2005, for about 20 games as a radio broadcaster. He also will serve as a roving minor league coach and an instructor at spring training, in addition to advising general manager Brian Sabean and making personal appearances on behalf of the club."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=2689976

2006-12-07 15:29:53
248.   Honoluludodger
242. I don't think we should blame the agent and let the player off the hook. Gagne and Drew are strong willed, professional athletes. They are making decisions that they believe are in their own self interest. Good luck to them. It is not as if Boras or any other agent can dictate what the player must do and the player blindly follows the evil agent. This was Gagne's decision.
2006-12-07 15:29:59
249.   paranoidandroid
243

Hmmm.... I think that if Gagne is healthy, he is the closer for us. I wish he would accept our offer, I think it is a fair offer. My point was simply that the difference between what is rumored to be the sought after number, 6 mill., isn't far off from what we offered and it could still get done if we truly want to take a chance on him.

I agree that we should be okay with Saito and Broxton, if we don't deal with injuries. I am fearful Tomko would get a shot to implode if either of the two you mention get hurt or are ineffective.

I thought the Baez trade was a good one last year, I thought we had a proved back up plan to Gagne. I was wrong of course.

2006-12-07 15:30:09
250.   jdm025
241
I think it could be one of two things.

1. All of this is just posturing by Boras because he knows that the Dodgers are the best fit and he is trying to drive up the price.

2. Gagne just wants more in the way of incentives and/or vesting options that would guarantee a second year that Ned may not be comfortable with given the possibilities offered by Brazoban, Saito, Broxton, and even Greg Miller.

If this is truly about $1 mil when the Dodgers already gave him that in a buyout, then go on your merry way, Mr Gagne.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-12-07 15:30:41
251.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
246 - Can't remember where I read it, but there was a good take stating the party really sweating bullets is Matsuzaka's team back in Japan.
2006-12-07 15:33:33
252.   jdm025
186
How about "Inconceivable!"
2006-12-07 15:34:06
253.   Jack Fimple
I honestly think that Gagne does not want to sign with the Dodgers even if the dollars are comparable to what he can earn from another team. By all reports, he is seeking a one-year deal, presumably so that he can prove he is healthy and get a much bigger deal next year. The Dodgers already have two pitchers who can close (Broxton and Saito) and would likely ease Gagne back into the closer's role (or even keep him in a setup role all year if Saito pitches like he did last year).

Although we all know that big save numbers do not necessarily equal a good pitcher (Derrick Turnbow anyone?), big save numbers typically do equal a big contract from someone looking for a "proven" closer so Gagne may likely be looking for a situation where he can step directly into the closer's role on opening day.

2006-12-07 15:37:05
254.   Honoluludodger
250. "If this is truly about $1 mil when the Dodgers already gave him that in a buyout, then go on your merry way, Mr Gagne."

I agree. I do not begrudge a player seeking market value for his services, but the Dodgers don't need those services as much as the teams that are willing to pay Gagne's price (who are setting the market and willing to take the risk).

Good luck, Mr. Gagne. I honestly hope you win the Cy Young in the American league.

2006-12-07 15:37:17
255.   LAT
242. Where is Gagne in all this? What you suggest assumes Gagne has no say in any of this. What about Gagne's comments "He is my agent, I am not his player." (or something like that suggesting Gagne is in control) (I think he said that right before he reniged on his hometown discount). This time Greed Badge has to be put on Gagne intead of Boras.
2006-12-07 15:37:20
256.   Steve
I take exception to the concept that "Dellucci" and "good" have transitive properties.
2006-12-07 15:38:21
257.   blue22
243/253 - I think that is spot on. Gagne knows he can't demand save opp's in LA, even with his history here.

246 - That $51M gets returned to Boston, and doubtful that number is repeated next year, so heck yeah they're sweating right now.

2006-12-07 15:38:37
258.   Honoluludodger
253. My thoughts exactly.
2006-12-07 15:41:23
259.   LAT
253. Very good point.
2006-12-07 15:42:03
260.   Disabled List
It's becoming painfully obvious that what is going to be required from the Dodger blogoverse in 2007 is a "Vin Scully Twins-&-Triplets-Meter". Basically, a running count of every time Vinny mentions LuGo's triplets and Nomar's twins. The guy who runs DodgerBlues ought to do it. I'm gonna email him.

I'm setting the over-under right now at 73.

2006-12-07 15:44:11
261.   Honoluludodger
261. The number of times that they are shown on any broadcast should be limited to 1.
2006-12-07 15:44:22
262.   Robert Daeley
From today's ESPN winter meeting buzz:

'The Dodgers might entertain offers for starter Brad Penny to acquire an impact bat, but don't look for Los Angeles to make a run at reacquiring third baseman Adrian Beltre from Seattle. "We're not going to take that tour twice," said a Dodgers official.'

http://tinyurl.com/wf3hl

2006-12-07 15:46:48
263.   GMac In The 909
240 Now that's funny.
2006-12-07 15:49:32
264.   Robert Daeley
262 Oh, and take a guess at who Beltre's agent is. :)
2006-12-07 15:51:17
265.   Eric Enders
262 Beltre's also a Boras client, and thus probably has all sorts of super-duper Boras clauses in his contract. I'd bet he has a no-trade clause, and perhaps an escape clause that allows him to become a free agent after any 4-for-4 game, or something like that. I don't blame Colletti for not wanting to deal with that.
2006-12-07 15:54:36
266.   blue22
264/265 - There's also his inability to hit. That's a bummer too.

He's got 3yrs/$35.25M left on his contract, and has 8 teams to which he can refuse a trade to.

2006-12-07 15:57:51
267.   Honoluludodger
I loved to watch Gagne pitch and I wish him well. But if you don't stand firm to Boras after you just paid his injured client 20 million over 2 years (and offered the contract that Gagne just rejected), you will never have any credibility in your negotiations with Boras.
2006-12-07 16:07:12
268.   zman15
Someone tell me what was wrong with Anderson's production last yr. I also saw Gonzo alot (since I've seen basically EVERY Dodger game last 3 yrs)-he's got next to nothing left. Not advocating Marlon as starter-but certainly more viable option than Gonzalez-on any level-dollar wise or on field production.
2006-12-07 16:07:25
269.   LAT
267. I think Ned lost his credibility with Boras when he cried like a little girl with a skinned knee after the Drew debacle.

But more importantly, let's not kid ourselves credibility has no place in baseball negotiations, its all about money and need. Both of those restore and take away credibility whenever its convenient for the parties involved.

2006-12-07 16:12:01
270.   natepurcell
i hope schmidt can take billingsley his 4 seam circle change. that thing is nasty.
2006-12-07 16:12:23
271.   natepurcell
teach

argh.

2006-12-07 16:12:54
272.   natepurcell
Someone tell me what was wrong with Anderson's production last yr.

it was a complete fluke for one.

2006-12-07 16:13:00
273.   Eric Enders
269 "I think Ned lost his credibility with Boras when he cried like a little girl with a skinned knee after the Drew debacle."

You misspelled "Hochevar."
;)

2006-12-07 16:13:31
274.   still bevens
you're fired nate
2006-12-07 16:14:44
275.   blue22
268 - His performance last year was comic book-like. He slugged .812 for LA.

His career line of .316/.394/.710 is pretty anemic for anything more than a lefty bat off the bench that can play a few positions.

2006-12-07 16:15:48
276.   Honoluludodger
269. "But more importantly, let's not kid ourselves credibility has no place in baseball negotiations, its all about money and need."

I agree. We don't "need" Gagne so let him get his "money" from someone else. By allowing Gagne to walk, Colletti may get some of his credibility back, for the next time he has to negotiate with Boras.

2006-12-07 16:16:35
277.   natepurcell
230

personally, if Wilson gets around 550ABs next year, the betemit will go boom at least 25-30 times.

2006-12-07 16:17:11
278.   Bob Timmermann
This was mentioned above, but I will restate that the Seibu Lions haven't received any money from the Red Sox. The bill is only due if Matsuzaka signs a contract.

It's not like the money is in escrow or off in some impound account gaining interest.

2006-12-07 16:17:35
279.   natepurcell
Im pretty satisfied with out pitching staff right now.
2006-12-07 16:18:26
280.   Honoluludodger
273. Very funny. Didn't the Hochevar debacle span the Depo and Colletti regimes?
2006-12-07 16:18:44
281.   Sons of Steve Garvey
I am bummed we signed Luis Gonzalez. The dude is old, breaking down physically, and leaving BOB. I think he's going to continue his downward trajectory - my guess is .250/.325/.420 or so - and really hurt us next year. I think the Dodgers are a better team without him on the 25-man roster.
2006-12-07 16:18:48
282.   blue22
279 - Im pretty satisfied with out pitching staff right now.

nate, slow down. Take a breath.

2006-12-07 16:21:15
283.   natepurcell
My God, did those margaritas at lunch really do that much to me?

waitress was trying to drug me.

2006-12-07 16:22:14
284.   Brian Y
I think the Reds would be a good trading partner for us since they need pitching and less K's so trading Penny, Ethier, Hendrickson, and maybe Betemit and Repko should net us Dunn, Freel, and maybe Homer Bailey. That kid is nasty. Even if we have to take Milton's contract and throw in Delwyn, Hu, Tomko, etc then it is worth it.

I would love to see our SP be: Schmidt, Lowe, Wolf, Milton, Kuo with Billingsley in Long Relief since he doesnt go far into games yet and also as back-up if Kuo gets hurt.

Our line-up would be:
CF Pierre
SS Furcal
3B Nomar
1B Dunn
2B Kent
LF Luis G.
RF Freel/Werth/Loney, etc
C Martin

2006-12-07 16:23:46
285.   blue22
nate, what do you think about the Milledge + Heilman for Danny Haren rumor?
2006-12-07 16:24:30
286.   natepurcell
284

I was looking at the reds as a potential trading partner for Penny but I dont really want anyone on their big league team. Although if they offer Bailey and Bruce, I dont think I could say no.

2006-12-07 16:24:30
287.   Honoluludodger
281. Aloha Sons of Mr. Garvey. Your father was a boyhood idol of mine. How many of the Garvey sons do you represent? Do you speak for the legitimate and the illegitimate sons? Do they all have to be named Garvey to be part of your organization?

Forgive my inquisitiveness, I am just fascinated to meet you.

Mahalo.

2006-12-07 16:25:08
288.   natepurcell
285

I think Haren's worth more and Beane knows it.

2006-12-07 16:31:23
289.   natepurcell
When the Gil Meche's of the world are signing 5/55 mil contracts, how is not every team in the league calling colletti about penny?
2006-12-07 16:36:36
290.   Brian Y
Bailey and Freel are good for me. They can have Penny and Hendrickson for them!
2006-12-07 16:37:37
291.   Eric Enders
I don't think even Wayne Krivsky is dumb enough to give up Bailey that cheap.
2006-12-07 16:39:19
292.   Brian Y
ok ok, Penny and Ethier for Bailey and Freel. I'd still do it!
2006-12-07 16:40:56
293.   blue22
289 - I just question what Ned would want in return for Penny. He got Gonzo, so 2/3's of the OF seems set via FA signings this offseason. If he wants another OFer, he'd likely include Ethier in the deal. Penny and Ethier seems to be a nice package, but who's the right partner for it?

Would one year of Wells be worthy of Penny and Ethier?

2006-12-07 16:40:58
294.   twerp
283 Nate, what do you think the waitress had in mind once the drugs took effect?
2006-12-07 16:46:07
295.   Brian Y
293. I would think the general assumption is he wants a power bat and will move people according to that. If it's a power bat at 3rd then he moves Betemit, if it's at 2B or 1B he moves Garciaparra to the OF I assume. If it's in the OF then he moves Ethier in the deal. I just would think someone like Dunn is more attainable than Wells, Manny, etc and why we want Baldelli is beyond me.
2006-12-07 16:47:11
296.   s choir
Beltre's contract details from mlb4u.com:

signed 5-year deal worth 64M on 12/17/04- he receives a 7M signing bonus payable in 2005 and salaries of 10M in 2005 and 11 to 12M each year in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009- + he can earn a 75K bonus for receiving the most All-Star votes in MLB and 50K for receiving the most votes in the AL (however he receives no bonus for actually making the All-Star team)- + he receives a limited NO-TRADE clause that allows him to veto trades to eight teams of his choice (SD is reportedly among those 8 teams)

2006-12-07 16:48:31
297.   Disabled List
Penny + Ethier = Dunn

I am good at maths.

2006-12-07 16:51:02
298.   Terry A
294 - The truth about Preston Mattingly.
2006-12-07 16:52:00
299.   blue22
297 - I just don't think Adam Dunn is the type of player Ned would covet. Maybe he'd surprise me, but he seems to prefer athletes that are fairly versatile offensively, not a TTO-type.

I think Baldelli is a more likely target, but I'm not sure TB wants Penny, even at his relatively modest salary.

2006-12-07 16:55:34
300.   Eric Enders
299 I totally agree with that, but maybe he realizes that by falling too in love with that type of player last year, he ended up having a team with no power.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-12-07 16:56:26
301.   Curtis Lowe
If trading for Dunn, why wouldn't a Penny/Dunn swap be enough? It seems NL AllStar starter inexpensive Brad Penny is being grossly undervalued.

I think what Ned should do is just sit back and relax till spring and watch as desperate teams start coming to him with offers he wont be able to refuse for Penny.

2006-12-07 16:57:21
302.   blue22
300 - he ended up having a team with no power.

That finished, what, 2nd in the league in runs, not to mention making the playoffs? I mean, I see how that kind of offense is sketchy, but Ned didn't exactly fail miserably with it the first time.

2006-12-07 16:59:50
303.   jdm025
293
The Penny/Ethier for Wells trade would be a risk, but I would be inclined to do it. I'm glad that I do not have to pull that trigger, though

299
I would LOVE to see Baldelli for Penny and either Ethier, Kemp, or Loney.

2006-12-07 17:00:08
304.   Eric Enders
302 Granted. And yet, when the season was over, he said his main priority was adding a power hitter. So it seems he realizes that an offense based mostly on high batting averages is a bit sketchy. Or at least, one would hope he does.

Your past actions don't have to be complete failures for you to learn from them.

2006-12-07 17:01:51
305.   jdm025
299
Or Penny and two others for Crawford. Talk about scoring runs...
2006-12-07 17:04:26
306.   Uncle Miltie
Dodger players favorite movies:
Jeff Kent "Boogie Nights"
Jeff Kent "The Jerk"
2006-12-07 17:14:05
307.   Brian Y
I really would hate to see Kemp or Loney go. Im much more inclined to see Ethier go since (I believe) he turns 25 next season as opposed to Loney who will be 23 and Kemp 22. I never valued Luis Gonzalez either though and to me Ethier is a clone of Gonzo. But Im sure there are teams willing to overpay for Gonzo Jr. and Penny because they are 24 and 28 respectively. Wells in his walk year doesnt necessarily tempt me for both of them but then again he would provide a certain boost to our offense.

Maybe the Braves would be good partners too since they have Andruw, Giles, and Smoltz and little chance of beating out the Mets in that division.

2006-12-07 17:17:18
308.   twerp
Talk of Penny's second-half falloff hurting his trade value may be accurate. I'd think it's rare for an All-Star starting pitcher to tank like that. Questions about injuries and a bad back don't help.

Someone in an earlier thread didn't think much of his fastball. Yet I've read where it's considered close to if not the best in the NL, and he put it on display in the all-star game.

I think falling in love with it and not concentrating enough on other pitches is part of his problem overall, not just last year. Sometimes he seems to have basically no breaking pitch, so hitters sit on the FB. If they can't actually hit it, they foul it off, run up his pitch count, and get him out of the game. At least that seemed to work in the second half.

I think a bug part of his problem lies between his ears. If you could give him Maddux's smarts and temperament, and he could develop reliable breaking and off-speed stuff, he'd be an All-Star every year. If, if.....

Oops, sorry...not supposed to be driving his trade value down....

2006-12-07 17:21:59
309.   Honoluludodger
308. His problem was Alyssa Milano. I think she wore out his back in the second half of the season. Just a theory.
2006-12-07 17:27:41
310.   twerp
309. But a reasonable theory. Are any statistics available, or video?
2006-12-07 17:35:35
311.   twerp
308 "...a bug part of his problem lies between his ears." Um, right. Come to think of it, if a bug is in there, it might explain a few things....
2006-12-07 17:37:37
312.   Vishal
[278] if that's true, then i would expect a matsuzaka deal to be announced on the very last day of the negotiating window, if at all. that way the sox can hold onto the money for as long as possible. i'm sure it's at least gaining interest for them.

[307] i don't imagine ethier ever having a 57-homer season, though, or anything close.

2006-12-07 17:38:47
313.   ToyCannon
How do you undervalue the worse 2nd half pitcher in the NL last year with at least 75 innings. 6.25 ERA, 102 hits in 80 innings. Oh yeah, he's undervalued. Bad back and crazy nerve problem. Should be a steal.
2006-12-07 17:46:02
314.   Vishal
[313] pre-all star break, he was 10-2 in 18 starts with a 2.91 ERA and a BAA of .249

certainly that also should factor into the equation.

2006-12-07 17:51:42
315.   Curtis Lowe
313- Yeh, he is undervalued obvioiusly you are undervaluing his 16 wins and his K/9 rate even during his second half slide.
2006-12-07 17:53:57
316.   Gen3Blue
V. Wells
2005 ab 620 HR 28
2006 ab 611 HR 32

I honestly think there are several young players in the Org. capable of reaching this power level for approx. $350,000. in 2008 and possibly even in 2007.

2006-12-07 17:58:50
317.   GMac In The 909
316 Betemit, Kemp and LaRoche come to mind
2006-12-07 18:03:27
318.   twerp
Let's see if I can get thru a couple other things without typos==

1) On Maddux moving to San Diego. He's clearly not the pitcher he was, except in flashes. It's hard to argue he should be in the Dodger rotation ahead of those now penciled in. But I hate to lose what he brings to a clubhouse. It was said Lowe spent lots of time picking his brain, which may have had something to do with his strong showing after Maddux arrived. Let's hope Lowe has a good memory.

In a few years Maddux might make one of the best pitching coaches ever, if he chooses.

2) On wanting Beltre back. He's a gold glove level fielder with one standout year offensively. Wanting him back--which the Dodgers apparently don't--in the place where he had that great year in hopes he can recreate it is mostly wishful thinking, IMO. He hasn't come close in Seattle.

2006-12-07 18:09:48
319.   gpellamjr
294 I don't think he cares as long as she's not fat.

318 I don't think Beltre will ever repeat '04, but I do have bad memories of his visit to DS this year, with the exception of Lowe's complete game, if I remember rightly.

2006-12-07 18:14:37
320.   overkill94
309 He dated Alyssa Milano in 2005, not 2006.
2006-12-07 18:19:01
321.   das411
So can I talk about the upcoming space shuttle launch in real time or do I have to wait for you west-coasters on that one too?
2006-12-07 18:31:22
322.   Honoluludodger
320. Are you sure he wasn't dating her in 2006 as well? 2005 or 2006. It doesn't really change my point in 309. Either year, she could have really damaged his back.
2006-12-07 18:36:37
323.   overkill94
322 I didn't hear anything about them after the last half of 2005. Wouldn't a nice thin girl like her help strengthen his back? That's why I think he did well in the beginning of 2006 and wore down by the end - he wasn't getting his nightly workout anymore.
2006-12-07 18:42:01
324.   D4P
The addition of leadoff hitter Juan Pierre will allow Little to experiment with moving Rafael Furcal into the third spot.

Why won't this idea just go away?

2006-12-07 18:42:39
325.   Honoluludodger
323, 320, 309. Sounds logical to me. But Metsblog thinks differently. They wrote:

"She began dating Dodgers RHP Brad Penny last summer. Prior to dating Milano, Penny was 10–2 and cruising to a Cy Young award. With her, Penny was 6–7 with a 6.25 ERA, and he missed most of the post-season with a lower back injury."

I don't know what the truth is, I just know that he is one lucky fat guy.

2006-12-07 18:43:53
326.   Honoluludodger
325. link to site is http://www.metsblog.com/blog/_archives/2006/11/17/2507450.html
2006-12-07 18:47:28
327.   overkill94
325 Yeah, that was brought up a while ago, but it's definitely incorrect. Just doing a quick Google search, some Alyssa Milano site has them linked in August of 2005, so I don't know how that would change his 2006 stats unless the broke up at the all-star break - which isn't what that blurb implies.
2006-12-07 18:48:05
328.   overkill94
*"they broke up", not "the broke up"
2006-12-07 18:57:27
329.   trainwreck
ESPN just broke Bonds to Giants 1 year $16 million.
2006-12-07 18:57:47
330.   trainwreck
I should probably say back to Giants.
2006-12-07 18:59:10
331.   Robert Daeley
Here's the story on MLB.com:

http://tinyurl.com/thr78

2006-12-07 18:59:11
332.   overkill94
Hmmm, I'm not seeing anything on the ticker or on the website
2006-12-07 19:02:55
333.   Eric Enders
So for those of us wondering what the market is for starting pitchers, the Braves just traded a complete waste of space starter -- Horacio Ramirez, who's even worse than Tomko and Hendrickson -- for an outstanding 27-year-old middle reliever (Soriano).
2006-12-07 19:03:19
334.   natepurcell
bonds stays a giant for one yr 16mil deal.
2006-12-07 19:03:43
335.   natepurcell
well 3rd place. story of my life.
2006-12-07 19:08:49
336.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.
2006-12-07 19:13:04
337.   Aug C
I think people need to calm down w/ Penny...

If Penny had his same 2006 season for somebody else, who here would be clamoring to trade for him? Undervalued? He is damaged goods at this moment in time. Heck, even if somebody who had a much longer track history of success than Penny had Penny's second half, I would not want Colleti to give up very much for him.

2006-12-07 19:16:34
338.   Miss Listening to Vinny
I have to say, looking at the SF/SD/LA starting rosters, I definitely like our chances in the division; I would think that the Bonds signing plus all the other AARP guys they've signed is going to shut them out of the Zito market, which makes the Giant pitching staff look pretty meek:

LA/SF/SD
c - Martin / Molina / Bard
1b - Nomar / Aurilla / A Gonzalez
2b - Kent / Durhan / Walker
ss - Furcal / Vizquel / Greene
3b - Betemit / Feliz / Kouzamoff
lf - Either / Bonds / Sledge
cf - Pierre / Roberts / Cameron
rf - Gonzo / Winn / Giles

sp - Schmidt / Cain / Peavy
sp - Lowe / Morris / Young
sp - Penny / Lowry / Maddux
sp - Wolf / Sanchez / Hensley
sp - Kuo / Hennesy / Thompson

cl - Saito / Benitez / Hoffman

Have to believe that the Giants are looking for another starter and the Pads for a cheap outfielder. But all-in-all, I think we look pretty good for the division. Do you think I'm cursing us by not including the Dbacks in this?

2006-12-08 07:13:21
339.   lakerican
Miss...

pssst!

I think our 5th starters is Bills, not Kuo...

2006-12-08 12:05:48
340.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
239 It took 239 replies for someone to acknowledge Jon's witty Blazing Saddles reference?

Gonzo like sherrif Ned...

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