I'm not sure I understand the Gagne money connection here. The Dodgers were reportedly willing to dedicate $10 million to him (given incentives being met), which had nothing to do these guys.

1 - It seems it would have taken X more dollars for the Dodgers to sign Gagne. The money currently being allocated to Beimel and Hendrickson could have covered or help to cover X.

2 X being approximately $1 million, if some reports out of Texas are accurate. Who knows if Boras+Gagne checked back with Ned or not before signing, or if as you say Gagne wanted to come back at all.

I would rather have an ailing Gagne than a well Hendrickson and Beimel. But since Gagne's guy is, as Bill Madden of the New York Daily News calls him, Scott "The Avenging Agent" Boras, it's hard to know just what he wanted from Ned. I'm sad to see him go. I'm sad to see Werth and Hall go with nothing coming in return.

Why would it be a downgrade to trade Penny? Doesn't it depend on what the trade is? Yeah, if all we got was Julio Lugo and a bag of burnt popcorn then yes it would be a downgrade. But if he and Betemit were traded for Scott Rolen it wouldn't be. Not that either trade is plausible, just that you have to know what the trade is before saying it is either a downgrade or an upgrade.
vr, Xei

I really don't understand the infatuation with Werth. Of course, I had a short infatuation with barbershop quartets a few months ago, so, you know, it's cool.

If we're sitting here begging for Loney and Kemp to get shots in the outfield, it's safe to say Werth never had a chance.

To answer thinkingblue's question from the last thread about guitars:

I also enjoy playing heavy stuff and I've been using a Jackson for about 5 years now. It's got nice low action and a pretty thin fretboard to allow for faster playing. Mine was in the range you mentioned as are many of Jackson's mid-range models. Other good shredding guitars are BC Rich and Ibanez. Enjoy!

I'm kind of upset about Werth.

Even during his half strength 2005, he was probably about as good as Juan Pierre. And what could he possibly have commanded in arb--1 million? Tops, I would think.

The Dodger outfield is very lefty heavy, and Werth could have been part of a nice platoon. Maybe they felt that was too much money for a guy with uncertain health. Maybe Werth forced the issue so he could become a free agent and a get a three year $19 million dollar deal from the Orioles or something.

But I think this is unfortunate. The Dodgers are not loaded with power, and he was a potential source for a relatively low cost.

6 Would've been nice to give him a chance, but I never really looked at him as a viable option in the outfield. The guy hasn't played in about a year and a half, I have a feeling he's gonna be reeeeally rusty at the beginning with his power really sapped.

Werth had 627 at bats. Perhaps not a fair chance, but a chance nonetheless.
vr, Xei

This is an hourglass market-heavy at the top and bottom with big contracts and pre-arb cheapies. Guys in years 4-6 are at risk for non-tendering. And there's so much pressure on the 40 man rosters for the middle guys that there is no secondary market...hence GMs have to non-tender at the deadline...Giles, Hall should have trade value but don't.

Apparently Hendrickson, aka Lurch, as an LHP, is worth the roster spot and the $4mil because of a percieved trade value.

Ned did what he had to do...See ya Jayson W...Texas no doubt...

Werth rolls a toohpick in his mouth while he bats, he is like a character in Major League.

No one wants to bite on my "Colletti is just dumping DePodesta acquisitions as quickly as possible" theory?

Well, I'm not too serious about it, but it is interesting. Some of Colletti's biggest head scratchers have been young DePo guys with big upside (Werth, Choi, Navarro, maybe Penny, even Drew, whose upside was health).

I can't blame a GM who prefers, other things equal, to have a team full of "his" guys, so that he's totally responsible for whatever happens, good or bad. But if I were Derek Lowe, I'd be looking over my shoulder.

12 Rachel Phelps?

What is 5 in response to?

13--

I don't want this to stir another Choi debate but I disagree that Choi had or has big upside. I didn't like his swing or his footwork. Nor do I think Navarro has big upside. I would have been a little more creative on Werth but it does appear they ran out of room there.

brad wilkerson was non-tendered.

is it too late to undo the gonzalez signing and snatch up wilkerson for half the price?

This is a little off topic but...is Marcus Giles possibly the best 4-6 year player ever non-tendered?

I don't know what his defense is like, but he runs pretty well, had an off year but can hit, is 28.

I wonder how much he will get on the market?

15. A carry over from the end of the previous thread. The discussion got cut off by the new post. Sorry for the confusion.
vr, Xei

17
Ugggggh.

18
I don't think Marcus Giles is quite in the same category as David Ortiz.

Oh come on, there has been no greater non-tender than David Eckstein, greatest player in the history of the galaxy.

Plus, David Ortiz never wrote a book.

22
Or is involved in professional wrestling.

21--oh, yeah, I guess I forgot about David Ortiz. Wow, the Twins really did dump him, huh?

Marcus Giles, second greatest non-tender in history!

Ortiz was also a PTBNL from Seattle.

I think it is my duty here to defend David Eckstein at every chance just to be edgy.

Well, Eckstein does play in a city that I fill fight to the death to defend.

Your move, Timmermann.

26 Ecksty?

22

Can't you stat-heads compliment a gutsy ballplayer without the requisite back hand?

Everyone knows Eckstein is the greatest player in the history of the universe.

27
St. Louis is a nice place to be from. I suppose that toasted ravioli is a staple at the Brock dinner table.

Even Tommy Craggs likes David Eckstein.

31 If that was supposed to help Eckstein's cause...

Toasted ravioli sounds good. Never had it. Sounds healthy, too.

I don't want to start another Choi debate, so I am going to state an opinion about him with no basis in fact.

18

Bill James expects Giles to rebound with an OPS near .800.

Quite simply, I agree with Jon if we have all the information we need to decide. I'd rather have Gagne, but I suspect the incentives were the bigger problem in the contract offer, not the difference between 4 and 6 guaranteed.

Beimel and Hendrickson are replaceable parts for $5 million. Biemel more replaceable than Hendrickson. Big Bird actually pitched well out of the pen, even striking out a few (he has had trouble throwing hard enough to strike guys out when he has started).

Big Bird fits the mold of a sixth starter, a decent long reliever who can chew up some innings when Fatdalis (oops, he's gone. i forget because we are still paying for him!) or Billz or Kuo get lit up, he can go four or five.

Wasn't Biemel the Tom Martin of 2006? Isn't he still out there as a FA? Wouldn't him and Hamulack and whoever else under 50 who ever threw left handed in the majors fight it out for that spot? I guess 1 million is not a huge investment if Biemel doesn't pan out this year.

But from a fan perspective, people paid to see Gagne, nobody ever said "Yeah, let's go tonight, that NBA washout is throwing lobs to the Padres again!"

32
Pete Carroll likes David Eckstein.

Karl Dorrell likes David Eckstein.

Let's hope Carroll's affinity for Cardinals extends all the way to Arizona.

I like David Eckstein. And I'm serious. He helped the Angels win the World Series. He's their version of the Dodgers' 1988 Mickey Hatcher.

13 I began suspecting the same when Navarro was dealt last June.

Actually Jon's post provides additional evidence to support the theory by connecting the failure to pursue Gagne and the non-tender of Werth with the decision to keep Hendrickson and Beimel.

Penny and (as you point out) Lowe will both be gone in the next year.

In Sunday's BTF's Primer blog on Plaschke's Salute to Ned, Matt Welch raised similar questions surrounding the GM's give-away of prospects aqcuired and/or protected by DePo with nothing much to show for it.

17 Rotoworld says the Rangers tendered Wilkerson a contract, did you see something different?

7 I can say with certainty that the 1970-model Rickenbacker I own would not be ideal for heavy metal. ;)

My wife had this to say since Werth was her favorite player from his 2004 season. I think she had a bit of a crush on the tall good looking guy.

"Ned es un idiota. Outhit de la voluntad de Werth el pinhead y el rey del triplit para menos entonces 1 millón de rosas."

Or as my Papa Frieberger used to say

"Ned ist ein Idiot. Werth Willeouthit der Pinhead und der triplit König für kleiner dann 1 Million Rosen."

So was Plaschke's column about Gagne's departure that was put up on the LA Times website the last time he will bring up the trade of Guillermo Mota as the cause of Gagne's breakdown?

Please.

Please.

Please.

2

I like many on this site am very sad to see Gagne go, and your phrase of Gagne's potential being so much more meaningful than Hendrickson and Biemel really hits it on the head. However, something I read this morning on the wires indicated that Gagne wanted to go somewhere where he would be the closer. So while the Dodgers were seriously interested in bringing him back did his demand for being the number 1 closer conflict with the Saito signing?

My question, I think Bernie Wiliams may fall into this catagory, but has a Scott Boras client ever resigned with his same team once he made free agency?

7.

Yeah, I've played Jacksons in the shape of a flying V at Sam Ash before, and they really bend easily, and go down 24 frets. So that would probably be a good idea, thanks.

42.

Unless you consider John Lennon heavy metal, lol.

41 Marcus Giles, Brad Wilkerson, J Werth and Joel Pineiro are all non-tendered in the same year that BA's "Organization of the Year" signs Gonzo ($7.4m), Pierre ($44m) and accepts arbitration with Mark Hendrickson.

There's a disconnect here for me....I'm going to bed.

46 Mine looks more like a Stratocaster with sharper edges, but I think pretty much any Jackson sounds the same. A good percentage of metal bands out there play Jacksons and they're fairly cheap, so I think you would be making the right choice.

47 Wilkerson wasn't non-tendered, the Giles non-tender was dumb and purely budgetary, Werth hsan't played in almost 2 years, and Pineiro has been terrible for two years straight.

I don't know Dr. David Thorpe, but it's possible we're related. Spiritually, at the very least. His thoughts on heavy metal (plenty bad language):

http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=4296

Ugh, Plaschke.

re: the guitar question from the last thread, my first [real] guitar was an epiphone les paul, which is sort of in that range. it was versatile, had a great tone, and was pretty good quality. i didn't do a whole lot of "shredding", personally, but it had a nice thin neck for it, and moreover the humbuckers gave it a nice chunky sound when you played overdriven or distorted chords.

oh yeah, and i'm sad to see werth go. i don't see why we couldn't have kept him around.

Why would it be a downgrade to trade Penny?

sure it depends on what the trade is, I just think that any plausible trade probably would be though.Consider Pat Burrell who could be the best case scenerio. how much of an improvment would he be over Andre Ethier? 20 VORP last year, what about Loney and Kemp? it would be some but, enough over the loss of penny especially if Wolf cant produce. as well as the fact that Penny is in his prime for very cheap over the next 3 or so years

46 When I stop and think about, the Beatles weren't in the Fender camp at all. I can't remember a single photo in which any of them were playing a guitar with that distinctive headstock. At least in the early days McCartney played a Hofner bass, Lennon had the Rick, and I think Harrison played a Gibson.

I thought Lennon played a B.C. Rich Warlock.

Lennon played a Strat on Sgt. Peppers.

Another Dodger lost today - F. Osoria was claimed off waivers by the Pirates.

57 Did he? Hmm. Well, that's one of the several Beatles albums I owned that got "lost" during one of my many moves when I was younger, so I'd have to download or buy it again to refresh my memory.

Buying CDs to replace vinyl I still own just bugs me, but try to replace a stereo turntable these days. The inexpensive ones are plastic and often have proprietary stylus/cartridge combinations, and the expensive ones are meant for DJs, which is overkill.

56 That would've looked awwwwwesome

I had this nightmare that the Red Sox couldn't agree with Matsuzaka, so they spent the money on Zito instead, and the Dodgers lost their pick to Oakland.

A history of The Beatles guitars

http://www.thecanteen.com/fabguitars.html

I'm a huge Beatles fan, but in my opinion Sergeant Pepper doesn't age well.

63 Concept Album, man...

Concept Album!

58 - Covered in a post earlier today.

54. Why is the Burrell trade the only plausible one? I would think a Penny trade would be constructed like this Penny + Player A for a player that plays the same position as Player A. With Gonzo, Pierre, Nomar, Furcal, Martin pretty much out of the question for various reasons, it would pretty much have to be a Penny plus Betemit, Penny plus Kent or Penny plus Ethier/Kemp trade. I just think the player the Dodgers would get back in a Penny trade needs to have a place to start. For simplicity purposes, I won't go into further detail/explanation.
vr, Xei

64 But weak. Not even close to Rubber Soul or Revolver. Even Magical Mystery Tour is a better album.

I had this nightmare that the Red Sox couldn't agree with Matsuzaka, so they spent the money on Zito instead, and the Dodgers lost their pick to Oakland.

dont worry Steve Phillips on ESPN just said that the Red Sox wont sign Zito b/c hes not a good match.......

62 Wow. That's quite a site, Greg. Thanks.

67 No argument from me. Rubber Soul is #1, followed by Revolver.

But I wouldn't call Pepper's weak.

69 How cool is that site? It's an absolute staple for the Beatles/guitar fan.

Dodgers/Beatles Thoughts. ;)

I'll take Revolver #1, with Rubber Soul right behind. But after that...I dunno. I like both Help! and Hard Days Night. The only thing I'm sure of is that the White Album is my least favorite.

However, something I read this morning on the wires indicated that Gagne wanted to go somewhere where he would be the closer. So while the Dodgers were seriously interested in bringing him back did his demand for being the number 1 closer conflict with the Saito signing?
45

If Gagné turned out to be the Gagné of old, of course he would have been the closer. Saito said many times he'd be happy to play setup to Gagné. And you really think Gagné is going to insist on being "closer or I won't play" if he's playing terribly, no matter where he is? Or what possible difference that might make?

The thing is that the deal he signed for is not all that much more than the Dodgers were offering. One wonders why Boras did not come back to check. Did Colletti indicate that the 4 mil plus incentives offer was the "last, final" offer? Probably. Would another 2 mil have been worth the risk? Probably.

54.

I guess I didnt go through all the options in my head but, I figured Burrel would be BEST plausible option as far as a good player coming back in the trade, without unloading the farm of course which I would assume no one wants. Burrell would only then be a upgrade of only about 10 in VORP over Ethier from last year, just to use a random common stat

White Album is great. There's just so much on it, and some of it is subpar. But there are some of my favorite songs on there.

Is there a Music Toaster in the incubator? I think the TV Toaster really cleaned things up. :)
vr, Xei

My favorite are Revolver, Help!, and the White Album.

I really liked 4-5 off the pepper album, and the good morning, good morning solo was shockingly good.

An interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that Lennon had a Framus. A close friend of mine in college had a twelve-string Framus, but I'd never seen another one anywhere until I saw that photo tonight.

I think White Album disc one is far superior to disc two.

I was just thinking of Xeifrank's opinion of Beatletalk and BOOM he shows up.

75.

Wild Honey Pie, and Good night simply shouldn't have been on there.

50 You can't consider yourself a kindred spirit of Dr. Thorpe if you actually enjoy music.

When the inmates start having fun, Xeifrank's buzzer goes off.

Met thread on Victor Zambrano at BTF.

Entertainment value= Limitless

As much as it disgusts me to say this, those KFC Famous Bowls actually look pretty good.

75 White Album would have made a great CD at 50-60 minutes instead of a full double album, but we'd argue forever on the songs to drop. Revolver (UK) has always been my favorite - strong from beginning to end. Magical Mystery Tour isn't exactly an album being a collection of a UK EP and some singles, but a good listen. Imagine the killer 1969 album that could have coelesced if they hadn't gotten so self-destructive at the end - the best of Abbey Road (again, we'd never agree on what got cut) married to, say, Let it Be, Get Back, Don't Let Me Down, I've Got a Feeling and more polished, but non-schmaltzed The Long and Winding Road. Spin Sgt. Pepper again; I used to downgrade it some, but it has actually grown back on me.

Oh, baseball. Did Toronto sign a backup C yet? Maybe Hall is their man.

[39] yeah, but you're an angels fan, so that hurts your credibility :P

[76] i would be all over a music toaster.

87 I believe Toronto still has Jason Phillips as a backup catcher.

I predict some people will be dismayed they missed out on Beatletalk tomorrow.

I can also predict who will not.

i'm no beatles aficionado, but from all i've heard, i think the white album is probably the best.

I'm a Rubber Soul man myself -- that, and Abbey Road. The White Album has some great stuff, but too much fluff. And Sgt Pepper's is too self-conscious.

89 As would I...

revolver for me. white album is a close second.

but the beatles isnt something i listen to constantly.

playlist for the last week: Crystal Skulls

I listened to Beatles when I was younger because of my dad so I do not know albums as a whole very well, but Helter Skelter is my favorite Beatles' song.

Anyone here like Stephen Lynch? Not only is he hilarious, but he's got a heck of a voice.

Rubber Soul remains my favorite Beatles album. I think part of the attraction of any album is where one is in life when an album is released. Rubber Soul came out more than 40 years ago, as I was finishing my first semester as a freshman at UCLA. I was pleased that I had managed to post about a 2.8 including an "A" in freshman composition and a "C minus" in French I. Though still shy of my 18th birthday, I felt I was a bit closer to being a grown-up. Over the break between semesters, I visited my sister and her husband in snowbound Storrs, Connecticut. We listened to the album so many times, the vinyl began to wear out. The guitar playing in "I'm Looking Through You" will last with me forever. I still pretty much know all the cuts on the album in order.

I'm Looking Through You was the first song I could play relatively well on the guitar.

Rubber Soul!

Back to baseball, if I may. I can't believe all the talent that is being non-tendered. Sheehan just had an article today predicting that not as many players would be let go as usual, given the way the market is going, but plenty of talent is out there.

And the Dodgers are full. I can't believe that they couldn't have picked up a couple players after today that would have been both better and cheaper than Pierre and Gonzales (not to mention Ramon Martinez).

Am I right that since these folks were non-tendered, there's no compensation necessary if they are picked up?

Some team is going to score some bargains after today. But it won't be the Dodgers.

tony jackson thinks something is brewing...

Waiver claim: In a development that could signal that the Dodgers are close to acquiring another player, reliever Franquelis Osoria has been claimed off waivers by Pittsburgh.

and colletti's response....

drumrollllllllll

"I'm not sure," Colletti said when asked if he believed a trade was imminent.

LOL

Here's the full list of non-tenders, acc. to mlb.com

http://tinyurl.com/wzxjj

Actually, now that I look at it, I'm less impressed. Giles, Hall, and Werth might be the class of the class (as it were).

Piniero, Zambrano, Guiel... anyone else see any one they'd rather have than Pierre or Gonzales?