no!! jon! i... do not think... you are... overacting! certainly... not in... the same league... as william shatner.

ahem, seriously though, i think it's pretty clear that the years spent hurling their 300 pound masses at increasingly high speed at one another utterly destroys the bodies of many football players, and i'm not surprised it's destroying their minds too.

1 - Yikes! Thanks. :)

Jon, can we also look at the example of Muhammed Ali who has been all over TV the past couple of days as another example of this problem. Ali spent years getting his head bludgeoned in the boxing ring. Could his Alzheimers be related to this?

I believe there are studies that show that of all the major sports, football players have continuing health issues long after they have played the game.

I also think that there is a mentality that baseball is just a kid's game with no physical contact, some old fat guy (Ruth)is their greatest player, its played at a slow pace. While football is a physical war, with game plans and strategies, where offense meets defense on the field of battle. Everyone remembers the video of the player spinning in the air after he was hit or Theisman getting his leg broken by LT.

I also think that there is a certain elitism when it comes to covering the sport, baseball has generally been treated with a reverence reserved for God and country while football is beer, loud music and cheerleaders. Hence, I think there was a greater revolt when steroids finally came in the open in baseball while football had its drug issues in the public many years earlier.

Finally, while there have been high profile players in the NFL who have had their share of drug issues, none of them did something like break a major record like McGwire and Bonds.

1 GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you're dressed! You've turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

[ a crowd of shocked and dismayed Trekkies.... ]

I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?

[ to "Ears" ] You, you must be almost 30... have you ever kissed a girl?

[ "Ears" hangs his head ]

I didn't think so! There's a whole world out there! When I was your age, I didn't watch television! I LIVED! So... move out of your parent's basements! And get your own apartments and GROW THE HELL UP! I mean, it's just a TV show dammit, IT'S JUST A TV SHOW!

4 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood Ali not to have Parkinson's Disease, but Parkinson's Syndrome - in other words, it's explicit that his symptoms of Parkinson's were caused by an outside punishment.

6 - Yeah, that was classic.

But it makes me wonder, if we're going to be angry about something, what should we be more angry about? Which is the more dangerous drug? Steroids, or football?

====================

How about football players using steroids, and still getting to go to the Pro Bowl?

(but yeah ... I hear ya')

A few years ago, SI had a photo essay on retired football players, showing all their crooked fingers, mangled torsos and knees, etc.

Football is just a slightly safer form of boxing.

[3] hehe, i was worried that wouldn't come across well in text. :)

[5] i agree with you to some extent. football is a brute game played by two groups of men exerting brute force on each other. (of course it's also a lot more to it than that, but there's definitely that element to it on a basic level). even the kicker is usually quite athletic and well-built. baseball is more of a skill game, where a guy like greg maddux or pedro martinez can absolutely own a hulking behemoth slugger like adam dunn 8 or 9 times out of 10. where even david "the little shorstop that could" eckstein can smack a homer from time to time. a little round ball and a little round stick and only 90 feet to first. the thought of steroids upsets that image somehow, moreso than football.

From the Parkinson's Disease website:

Parkinson's Syndrome, Atypical Parkinson's, or Parkinsonism:
Parkinson's disease is also called primary parkinsonism or idiopathic Parkinson's disease. (Idiopathic is the term for a disorder for which no cause has yet been identified).

In the other forms of parkinsonism, either the cause is known or suspected, or the disorder occurs as a secondary effect of another, primary neurological disorder that may have both primary and secondary symptoms of Parkinson's disease. These disorders, described as Parkinson's Syndrome, Atypical Parkinson's, or simply parkinsonism, may include:

* tumors in the brain

* repeated head trauma

* drug-induced parkinsonism - prolonged use of tranquilizing drugs, such as the phenothiazines, butyrophenones, reserpine, and the commonly used drug, metaclopramide for stomach upset

* toxin-induced parkinsonism - manganese and carbon monoxide poisoning

* postencephalitic parkinsonism - a viral disease that causes "sleeping sickness"

* striatonigral degeneration - the substantia nigra of the brain is only mildly affected, while other areas of the brain show more severe damage

* parkinsonism that accompanies other neurological conditions - such as Shy-Drager syndrome (multiple system atrophy), progressive supranuclear palsy, Wilson's disease, Huntington's disease, Hallervorden-Spatz syndrome, Alzheimer's disease, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, olivopontocerebellar atrophy, and post-traumatic encephalopathy

Sorry, that looked shorter the first time I read it.

if we're going to be angry about something, what should we be more angry about? Which is the more dangerous drug? Steroids, or football?

I hadn't gotten the impression that the anger directed at steroids in baseball was really about players' health, but rather about protecting the "integrity" of "the game" and its historic records.

In other words, steroids inspire anger not so much because they're dangerous, but because they seem "unfair."

In football, steroids are unconsidered unhealthy. But in baseball, they are considered unfair.

Why?

I don't know. You do the math.

I did the math, but I got an error message.

Some thoughts ...

There has been lots of recent talk about the advancements in pads and other protective gear. Does anyone think that this might reduce the issue for current and future players?

Ali is a poster child for this phenomenon in Boxing, but I am not familiar with any others. Is this problem prevalent in that world?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that serious, high level basketball players have substantially shorter lifespans and a higher than typical experience with heart problems. Would this be a similar issue?

Football is far more dangerous. Unless it was his only chance to have a better life - which admittedly is true for some NFL players - I would not want my son to play football. The risk of concussions alone, plus the league's seemingly ambivalence, perhaps outright ignorance, about them are enough for me. And then to see how retired players are treated re: medical issues and benefits sickens me. Read some of Dr. Z's writing on that stuff and see if you can avoid wanting to throw up.

One of the reasons so many media folks/Congresspeople get up in arms about steroids in baseball is because its (allegedly) setting a bad example for children. Just listen to Mr. Hooten who lost his baseball-playing son to steroids.

That's terrible, but where is the football equivalent of Mr. Hooten? If I'm an teenager who wants to be a pro football player, I'd bet steroids/hGh/and the like are on my mind a lot. Especially if I'm already in college at a decent program. Football is all about biggest, faster, stronger - those are the in-demand guys. They aren't just paid the most, they are among the most-hyped and the most famous.

Hmm, bigger, faster, stronger . . . aren't those exactly the same traits that PEDs are supposed to provide, if used 'properly' along with a rigorous workout regimen?

If college football wasn't such a big deal (and a huge moneymaker for so many schools and media outlets), and if pro football wasn't such a huge deal (and a huge moneymaker for so many owners and media outlets, to say nothing of how much money is gambled on it), I think football would receive a lot more scrutiny. Its a very cynical statement, but I'm afraid there's a lot of truth in it. And as a baseball fan, it ticks me off.

16 - One of the reasons I wrote this piece is because I do believe the NFL is trying to find the best equipment, but I'm not confident about how much it will help.

I believe a recent study done with Penn State players where accelerometers (I think that's what they were called) showed that most collisions in football were about as forceful as an average car accident.

Hula Hoop Crisis: Averted!

And a Choi shall lead them:

"I really appreciate your question.
Unfortunately, I was on vacation when this event took place but after asking my UTLA Chair, the hula hoop stood for, "We are tired of running through hooks!" Isn't that clever?
I liked it. Well, I hope I have answered your question. Have a wonderful day."

Presumably jumping through hoops, or, at least, I'm willing to presume that. And so, there we have it. Thank you Leonard Choi!

I recall some years ago the animal rights activists being up in arms because football helmets were being tested on chimpanzees (or some other member of the monkey family). It was considered inhumane to subject these creatures to the impact of being hit on the head repeatedly in order to find out whether the helmets were safe and able to prevent injury.

The irony seemed lost on the reporters covering the story. We're willing to let human beings -- children! -- take these blows to the head, but not chimpanzees. I realize the chimps had no choice, and that's an ethical distinction from the kids who choose to play football. But how many kids who make that choice are really making an informed choice? How many Andre Waters are there out there who never played a pro game, whose names nobody outside their families knows, who received their three concussions on a high school or minor college football field?

I admit it; I am a football fan. I'm in New Orleans right now and the excitement about the Saints is contagious. But if I am perfectly honest with myself, I am being entertained watching a bunch of men, in Jon's words, sow the seeds of their own destruction.

16 - I imagine you could make a case that shorter life spans and greater amounts of heart issues among NBA might have other explanations. For one thing, it might be unhealthy to be 6-10 or taller and perhaps being that tall strains the heart. Also, the things that cause someone to be extremely tall (genetic freak accidents or pituitary conditions) might also complicate the health of an individual.

Would anyone be surprised to find out that Offensive Lineman in the NFL have lower life expectancy and huge heart risks? Also, apparently being an OL in the NFL essentially guarantees serious knee problems or losing the ability to walk later in life. The body just isn't built for that kind of abuse.

Would anyone be surprised to find out that Offensive Lineman in the NFL have lower life expectancy and huge heart risks?

Not at all, as most NFL linemen are basically obese.

23 - Sorry, should have combined both paragraphs. My point was, there is a physical strain on the bodies just from being that size in both cases.

20 Take a bow, Andrew.

I hate running through hooks.

Is Andrew patenting the Hula Hook?

27- I saw the first part of an HBO special on that, once; they were dudes. I changed the channel.

I suspect that the reason that many people are up-in-arms about steroids in Baseball versus use in football is directly related to economics. Baseball salaries for average players versus salaries for footballers with comparable athletic abilities is noticibly higher, not to mention that the chances of a football player finishing out a high-salary, long-term contract are considerably lower than in baseball for many health and financial reasons. Steroid use in baseball may be perceived as ultimately a long-term financial decision that has more impact on the player's price on their contract, compared to football, where a player is trying to survive to their next contract intact.

I'm not saying this is excusable, I'm postulating this as a probable motivating factor.

28 Was it Hula Hook Confessions?

[26] that sounds awfully painful.

[29] does anyone really care how much money mark mcgwire made in his career?

29 - I think that may factor in, but only in a minor way. I think that steroids are perceived as a problem in baseball because of home run records and because baseball is seen as more of an individual game than football. Most of the players on the football field are ignored, and the player that everyone notices, the quarterback, probably wouldn't benefit that much for steroids. Those two factors together mean that steroids in baseball are seen as changing the eternal nature of the game, which is inviolate, meanwhile the NFL changes the on the field rules every year anyway.

Football was the only mainstream sport that didn't require ice that I didn't play at an organized level as a kid. I loved to play in neighborhood pickup games though. I'm kind of glad I never put my body through that punishment and instead stuck with baseball, soccer, basketball, tennis and golf while growing up. vr, Xei

14. I'd say they are unfair in football too.

16. 22. I heard once from a trainer that sports with lots of sprinting can be bad for the heart as the heart is forces to beat rapidly above the healthy aerobic heart rate for short periods of time, slowing down in between. This can make the heart tissue leathery over time.

20

If you run through hoops with scissors, then the hoops can becomes hooks ...

But if run with scissors .... well, you know the rest ...

29. I think people care about steroids in baseball in part because the common fan feels a bit betrayed. Baseball wasn't doing so good until Mcgwire and Sosa started threatening home run records. The fan that got excited about baseball again because of that is going to feel betrayed that it may have all been because of cheating.

37. ding-ding-ding-ding-ding... we have a winner. Or atleast a point that I was about to make. :)
vr, Xei

So is it that the football fan simply accepts cheating as part of the sport?

39 - I think that we have reached a point where sports media content dictates fan outrage. Consider TO, if ESPN didn't follow him around and over-analyze every time he went to the bathroom, then no one would care either way about him and he probably would still be on the Eagles. No one really talks about steroids as a problem in the NFL, so most fans probably assume it isn't a big deal. If ESPN got on their high horse and talked about how Meriman used steroids in a year where he was considered one of the best defenders in the NFL, then suddenly fans would know about the "steroid problem" in the NFL.

39. I think that if it came out that guys like LT, Peyton Manning, Big Ben, Reggie Sanders, and other NFL record breaking stars all suddenly changed their appearance drastically (gained muscle weight) and suddenly started to perform better at the same time leading to their record breaking performances, people would feel betrayed and angry.

Another way to say it is that no one cares that Jason Grimsley took PEDS. People only care that he may have given them to good players.

Do people believe that elite football players are all clean?

I think the Dodgers should sign Barry Sanders to play left field :-)

43

makes sense ... given that they'll undoubtedly be offering "Colonel Sanders" in that all-you-can-eat section out there ...

43. DOH

42- I don't. Look at their necks! How does anybody go about getting a neck like that, legitimately? What kind of neck weightlifting programs are there? I'm not a football fan, so, I don't know why football fans give the game a pass, but it does seem like they do. Who was that guy from OSU who was caught boarding a plane with a Wizzinator, or whatever? That's a funny story, in football. In baseball there'd be a commission to investigate it, lead by former senator George Mitchell.

Nats blogger briefly comments on "Luis Gonzalez + Juan Pierre = JD Drew + Kenny Lofton". http://tinyurl.com/39poe5

The risks of football are one of the reasons I'm not surprising that Jeff Samardzija signed to play baseball exclusively. The NFL plays an exteremely violent game that leaves almost all players somewhat debilitated and offers smaller dollars in non-guaranteed contracts. If you have the skills for baseball to offer you $10 million, you ought to take it - few NFL players ever earn that much.

To tell you the truth I don't even know what the drug policy is in baseball, football, hockey, basketball, tennis, golf or any other sport for that matter. I doubt very many casual fans do know. I don't think the casual fan even wants to have to be concerned about those things. Myself, I just love the game, whatever sport it happens to be. I just want there to be a strong drug policy in place and not have to worry about such things. I don't think football fans accept cheating in the sport, especially when they don't even know the drug policy rules. vr, Xei

All this talk about the Giants walking away from the Bonds 1 year deal lead me to see what the lineup analyzer had to say about a Bonds and No-Bonds lineup. The most efficient lineup with Bonds in it, had them at 802 runs and the most efficient lineup without Bonds (replaced by Linden) had them at 726 runs. That said, the Giants better have a (remarkable) trade lined up if they don't resign Bonds. vr, Xei

Steroids are seen as worse in baseball than in football because:

1. People are sympathetic to football's strength demands, which are more explicit than baseball's. Football is hand-to-hand combat. Baseball is tennis.

2. People feel sorry for old football players having to match strength and quickness with young players. Diminished strength in baseball means lower stats. In football it means unemployment.

3. Football players are freakishly large to begin with, and further obscured by padding. So the muscular obscenity isn't in-yer-face, as with baseball.

4. We watch football to see a war of savage beasts. To see people NOT like us...outlandish. Baseball players are expected to be at least humanly athletic. Excessive bulk appears out of place and brutish.

5. Football's alleged brain damage issues, while sensational, are not at all pervasive. Further, there is no established adverse direct causal link, as with steroid use.

6. In baseball you can see a man's face and look into his eyes. This fosters an expectation of honesty.

7. TV image of baseball game: Vast numbers of impressionable boys & girls eating pink cotton candy.

TV image of football game: Mean men fist pumping in rhythm with their mustard breathed obscenities.

We half believe the later deserve what they get. The former do not.

48. Good point, how long would it take him to make $10mil in the NFL? vr, Xei

51 - I like that.

51. Not sure I agree with the premise.
vr, Xei

47 -- who says that? Tom Malthus? Paul Ehrlich? Droopy Dog? Forrest Gump?

While I have no opinion on Jon's column I've never understood why the American Athlete has choosen football or basketball over baseball given the money and health factors. The money is better, the chances for employment are better, the chances of a life altering injury is small, and you get laid more because your on the road more. What more could a 18-25 year male ask for who was raised in the United States?

55 Jon Heyman at SI.com, who is increasingly deserving of being grouped those esteemed induhviduals.

51 - I don't know. I agree with you in part, but I don't think it entirely speaks to the double standard.

Point 2: Diminished physical ability in baseball also means unemployment, and I think people are aware of that.

Point 3: I don't think the bulk of baseball fans were offended by the looks of Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro. Is there any evidence that they were? Even in the case of Bonds, I think that it's his personality more than his appearance that alienates.

Point 4: I think people watch football for excitement - maybe savage excitement, but excitment nonetheless. I think people treasure the excitement more than the brutishness, and would be content if no players weighed 300 pounds or looked like Tex Cobb in Raising Arizona.

Point 5: I think that when asked to think about it, the bulk of people believe that the physicality of football causes long-term injury, and that the causal link is at least as strong as that of steroids. But people care as much about the danger of football as they did about steroids in '98.

Point 6: Um, maybe. In general, I concede this reflects what may be an acceptance that football has drug use. But it still doesn't explain the acceptance once confronted with it.

Point 7: More football fans use drugs than baseball fans? :)

I find myself here in 2007 seeing people wondering how the media ignored the steroids problem in baseball 10 years ago. In 2017, we may well find the same 10-years-later sentiment toward football.

56 - Because they don't grow up playing baseball as much anymore? So it's really a choice they make around the time they're in Pop Warner or playing pickup hoops at their elementary school?

It is possible to become too strict with testing and punishments; see Floyd Landis and countless other cycling, running, and other athletes participating in international competitions subject to the USADA. The LA Times had a great article on this a little while ago.

5. Football's alleged brain damage issues, while sensational, are not at all pervasive.

If that's true, it's because the brain isn't usually the first body part to give out. But there's no way to know whether it's true, today. The studies are just starting, and it's going to be a long time before there's enough evidence to know what the cost of having one's head bashed in every Sunday, all winter, is.

Even then, even once these promised studies come to fruition, most of the numbers are going to be soft because you're going to be depending an ex-football players to tell you if they're sad.

I need to change my screen name to "Jim Otto's Knees" for this thread.

This blog seems right up Bob's alley:

http://apostrophecatastrophes.blogspot.com/

52 Hard to say, of course, but as points of comparison, since Samardzija was project as mid-first round: In 2002, Ashley Lelie and Javon Walker were the 19th and 20th picks in the first round, respectively. Walker has turned out to be the better player; Lelie's best paydays are likely behind him already. Note that large %s are in front-loaded signing bonuses. Source: USA Today database.

Career earnings (not including 2006), signing bonus, 2005 earnings, full contract value (from AP) all in millions of $:
Lelie: 6.4, 4.4, 0.575, 7.1
Walker: 6.05, 4.3, 0.515, ? (just under 7?)

Lelie had a lousy 2006 with his second team and his future earnings prospects seem dim. Walker parlayed some strong seasons into a new contract extension before the start of 2006. Details hard to find, but reportedly the total value could be $40 million. Assuming a substantial signing bonus as is typical in the NFL, Walker probably earns his $10 million the next time he steps on the field.

A significant percentage of mid first round picks wash out and never get a second contract.

From BP chat with Nate Silver:
Mike (Michigan): Wow Nate, Pecota LOVES Matt Kemp. Why? His pitch recognition seems pretty bad.

Nate Silver: PECOTA actually does think that Kemp's plate discipline problems will constrain his growth a little bit. We have him at a .286 EqA at age 22, but that only grows to a .293 EqA at age 26. That's just a 7-point gain, when ordinarily you'd expect a gain more on the order of 15 points.

With that said, Kemp is already very good. The numbers he put up in Jacksonville and Las Vegas last year were HUGE, and remember that he was seeing each of those leagues for the first time. And there were things to like about what he did in the majors too. Plus he's got excellent athleticism to round out his power, so if the plate discipline DOES come around, watch out

52 In the 2006 NFL draft, the first WR taken was at #25 in the first round, Santonio Holmes. His contract is reportedly 5-years, $8.1 million. No further details, but typically, he'll a large majority of that in the first two years.

I can think of a few guys who tried BB, couldn't hack it, then tried FB (e.g. Drew Henson), but vice-versa? I don't think Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders count, because they didn't give up FB; they had two-sport aspirations.

All I know is that the non-pleasant effects of steroids use often don't take long to become apparent, and often coming off them for teenagers and 20 somethings can be particulary emotionally nasty. I'm fairly certain some athletes I knew in the 80s were using steroids and these were multisport guys trying and getting to the next level, either in college or minors. A guy I worked with that played football told me that having his knee destroyed as junior in HS was the best thing that happened because he no longer had any incentive to do 'roids. A martial arts friend has about destroyed his marriage because of the issues he's had in quitting... started in HS. So yeah, it's not "alleged". I'm not sure the blame lies squarley or only at the feet of respective professional sports, but it's bad, bad stuff. In my experience only Oxycontin is worse ... causing the suicide at least partially of two friends.

So if there were a "professional sports playing" spectrum how would it be constructed?

NBA-MLB-NFL

With it easier to move from the left to the right on the spectrum? Or is it impossible to construct one.
vr, Xei

Also from the BP chat--

theguag (Louisville): Why does PECOTA forecast only 164 IP for Derek Lowe?

Nate Silver: Because he's 34 and doesn't strike people out. I realize that his strengths lie elsewhere but the attrition rate for this type of pitcher is very high.

Good topic and insights, Jon. I've wondered about this myself, many times, especially this year. Consider the juxtaposition of the current steroids situation in football and baseball: Shawn Merriman, more than just a current player but a rising NFL star, actually tested positive during this season for steroids and still earned a slew of NFL honors; meanwhile, Mark McGwire is buried in seclusion somewhere behind his Orange County gated community and hasn't picked up a bat in years. But when it comes to the steroid discussion what's the hot topic? McGuire while the Merriman situation is hardly discussed.

When it comes to baseball, I think the concern for steroids really comes down to protecting the integrity of the game and the statistical records that are such an integral part of the sport. The whole side topic about protecting the children from the ravages of steroids is completely disingenous. If MLB had protecting children as one of their top priorities, they would ban the use of tobacco by all players and managers. No other sport, besides maybe bullriding, has done as much to promote and glorify chewing tobacco, which I would guess has killed a lot more people than steroids (yea, I know one is legal and the other isn't, whatever).

So to echo quite a few comments here, baseball's problem with steroids stems from concerns over fairness and integrity