I've been quite surprised by the romanticization of Vero Beach. I always think of Vero Beach as being more of a symbol of an era when the Dodgers organization was far more successful than it is now on the field. But does Vero Beach have meaning beyond that?

But is there any sport other than baseball where fans would come out to watch the players practice in any large numbers? A few NFL camps I suppose. Would anyone want to watch an NBA training camp?

While Dodgertown was a decent enough facility, it doesn't strike me as a tragedy that the Dodgers are leaving. It's not like the Red Sox where every ST game is sold out - I would say the games were maybe 2/3 full when I went, even on the weekends. Sure there were a good amount of older folk who are devastated that the team is moving, but the facility itself isn't all that special - we're not talking Wrigley Field here.

I'm usually all for keeping tradition in sports, but when a team's home base is 3,000 miles from its training facility it doesn't make much sense. I'm really excited to be able to go to Arizona every spring for a week to watch the youngsters just like I was able to do this year for a fraction of the cost. Purists may be scoffing now, but no one will give a crap in 10 years.

To tie a discussion from the last thread to the current one...

I know I'll get some flack for saying it, but I would add Fever Pitch to my favorite baseball movies list. Sure it's silly in parts and follows a somewhat typical romantic comedy path, but it really does an excellent job of capturing how it feels to be a super-fan. I'm not to the level that Fallon is in that movie, but to be honest I really would like to be. If games were a little cheaper and transportation more convenient, I would love to go to every home game every year until I died. And the way he decorates his apartment? Awesome.

Oh yeah, the tie-in is a quote from the movie that cracks me up every time I hear it:

"Fallon: uh, me and my friends,we go down to Florida.

Barrymore: You and your buddies go down
to Florida for spring break? At your age?

F: No, no, no, not spring break. Spring training with the Red Sox.

B: Oh, you get to train with the Red Sox?Are you allowed to do that?

F: Well, we don't actually - We watch the games.

B: Aren't those just practice games?

F: Yeah, yeah, but there's more to it than that. We scout the players. We-We say which players they should keep...which they should get rid of.

B: And the Red Sox ask your opinion?

F: Well, not yet. But if they ever do, uh-"

And a challenge to the Score Bard rises in the east.

http://dcbb.blogspot.com/2007/03/al-preview.html

Worth "clicking".

1 I think part of it is the connection to the Brooklyn days, though the team was only playing in Brooklyn for the first 7-8 years they trained at Vero Beach.

Also, the stories about the sliding pits, the strings, the old barracks and streets named after former players and one broadcaster.

I've mentioned this before, but I think the loss of Dodgertown is yet another step in the diminishment of the Dodger brand. The history and tradition of Vero Beach was something special that only the Dodgers had. It was a tangible, organic connection to the past that the entire nation could appreciate about our team. Now, that's gone. The Dodgers are just like all the other teams with regional appeal and nothing more.

The Dodgers won't even have their own camp anymore. The team is going to be sharing a facility with the White Sox, for crying out loud. It's nice that it'll be more accessible for Dodger fans in SoCal, but it's still a depressing development to me.

Although the move may be nice for the California fans to have better access to spring training games, it leaves those of us from east of the Mississippi with many fewer opportunities to see the Dodgers. We have already lost many regular season games around here since the realignment and interleague play, now we lose spring training too. I for one will miss them being in Florida, where an East Coast fan has reasonable access. West Coast fans already get them for the entire season. All we get here is MLB Extra Innings, and we have to change our staellite provider just to get that.

Just my anecdotal evidence, but it seems like Dodgertown holds more importance to those of us who are Dodger fans and don't live in southern California/West Coast. I grew up in Iowa but a Dodger fan thanks to my Dad who took a liking to the Dodgers as a farmer's son in the 1940s and 50s. When I was 9, we went to a spring training game in Vero Beach while on vacation visiting relatives in Florida. I was already a Dodger fan, but that cemented it for life. Autographs from Garvey, Lasorda, Cey and others. Lee Lacy also hit a home run.
I completely understand the reasons for moving spring training to Arizona. But I would also argue that it does diminish the Dodger brand on a national scale.

The other thing about Vero is that (at least the times I've been there, last in 1999 so things could have changed somewhat) it's one of the most fan friendly camps. Most of the newer camps I've been to are designed to keep fans as far from the players and training fields as possible, usually with very high chain link fences. At Vero you could wander around, and players and coaches were accessible, and many were happy to chat with you. You could watch bullpen sessions and BP from close by. I like Holman quite a bit, too. Its design practically encourages wandering around in during the game, viewing the action from different vantage points. And from a fan's point of view, I much prefer 2/3 full to packed to the gills.

I doubt very much if the new facility will be designed for fan access, and I think that's a shame.

Branding is an art backed up by some great books, big-time university marketing degrees, and some famous people that have made their niche in developing and preserving brands. A thread about what the Dodger brand means to each of us would be very interesting.

I feel for the East Coast Dodger fan, but the fans who followed the Brooklyn dodgers and moved to Florida are passing away while the Los Angeles fans are retiring to Arizona not Florida. Your right as time passes the Dodger brand East of the Rockies will continue to diminish but this is a West coast club and it is more important to build the brand where the fan base lies. For years the West Coast Dodgers had the whole area west of the Rockies to themselves but with expansion they are now competing with the Padres, Rockies, and Diamondbacks for attention. Spring training in Arizona is a breeze compared to Florida. Almost all the stadiums are within an hour of each other so no long drives or busrides for the players. The stadiums are all modern with multiple practice facilities and no humidity or bugs.
To me this is a decision that is 10 years overdue.

3 Y'know, I really enjoyed Fever Pitch, too - more than I expected, given I'm not a big Jimmy Fallon fan (but he was actually good in that film, even subdued at times) and it is schmaltzy at times, but it was definitely more watchable than I figured it to be.

I will make one last pilgrimage to Dodgertown next year. Having been a Dodger fan for 51 years, I have been to Vero dozens of times. If anyone thinks this isn't a special place, then you don't get it.

The community of Vero Beach has thrived with the Dodgers' presence, and no other team can fill the void that they'll leave. It may make sense for you West Coast guys, but for eastern Dodgers fans, we're losing the last crumb of local contact that we had.

Hope the place in AZ is great, but you'll have to go a long way to achieve the same history (shared though it may be with the White Sox) to ever equal what Vero has become with almost 60 years of spring training. Not trying to be overly sentimental, I know how you stat guys hate that.

Branding is perception based.

Does the Dodger brand stand for old non-air conditioned army huts that players like Duke Snider had to live in during Spring at Vero Beach? Does it stand for playing games in small old Ebbits Field in Brooklyn where kids like Vin Scully could watch a game through a key hole or get inside for free on bring an instrument night?

Or does the Dodger brand stand for leading MLB to new eras by having the guts to move west, giving playing opportunity to Blacks, helping make baseball international by being one of the first to reach out to the world for players?

Yes the Dodgers are morphing into an organization that is more revenue driven, but as of yet is not doing that via the Texas Instrument route by merely seeking gross sales increases by buying companies that produce cheap watches and calculators, etc. So far, they are more like Hewlett Packard and staying true to the concept of making a contribution through great engineering and innovation. (the latter remains to be seen and it discounts HP's purchase of Compact Computer)

11 - "The stadiums are all modern with multiple practice facilities and no humidity or bugs."

In other words, sterile.

Dodger Baseball--where the old guys play?

Dodger Baseball--where risk has its own rewards?

It's funny, I'm as sentimental as anyone and have been a Dodger fan since 1964, but leaving Vero Beach doesn't bother me at all.

As Allen Iverson would say, "We're talkin about Spring Training man, Spring Training."

17-It may be spring training to you and Alan, but it's the only chance I've ever had to see the Dodgers play in their home whites. Guess, I'll just have to break down and fly out to LA one of these days.

Well, Yahoo's Tim Brown and Jeff Passan both pick the Dodgers in the World Series - which will apparently be a team effort because there aren't any Dodger players on their individual achievement prediction lists (at the top).

http://tinyurl.com/2s2ueo

17 - While I might tend to agree with your overall sentiment I disagree with the notion that it is only spring training. I think perhaps it is the probably misguided hope in these days of free agency that in having the players go to this place that has its own aura will somehow endear them to us and us to them. There is that hope that some bond will be formed.

It is bottled magic that is incovenient and unprofitable and is hard to replicate. Some teams have it and others don't. The Green Bay Packers camp seems to have it as well, while the Bears don't. It's hard to say why.

I've never been to Vero, but it has that aura for me and while having the shorter trip to AZ will be nice I doubt that it will ever have that aura.

It might be the rational decision to move, but it's risks losing something that can't be rationally measured. That being said I'm not stomping my feet angry about it or anything. It's just one of those small things that will disappear and that I will miss even if I never had the chance to enjoy it in person.

20 Part of the bottled magic is that the Packers training camp is that it is actually in Green Bay. The Bears train 50 miles from Chicago.

I'm sure there is some magic, but the local fan base actually gets to see the training camp stuff in nearly the same area.

I know one thing about Vero Beach. I'm going next year, and I'm sure as heck looking forward to it. (I'm also putting the request out there for restaurant rec's and other worthwhile pointers).

Others have said it better, so I won't belabor it. I think the move is a shame. A mitigated shame, since more of us will now go to ST more often, but still a shame.

What Vero Beach had that other facilities might not have is that it and the Dodgers allowed fans to get close to the players between 9:00 AM and 11:00 AM before they left to get ready for the 1:00 PM game.

Nomar has quite the banter with fans when he is hitting during batting practice. It used to be that fans would be walking down the pathways along side Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, etc. and the old players could be seen all over the place. It is harder to spot those older players now. Vero might be too far away for drop ins.

The Dodgers actually have a better chance of recreating what made Vero Beach such a great experience prior to 1995 in Glendale.

The layout is supposed to be similar to Vero Beach and now perhaps the retired players will come back in droves again.

Brooklyn to LA, Vero to Glendale. Staying in Vero is like playing Gonzo ahead of Kemp.

I guess I was disappointed by Fever Pitch bc I expected more out of it.

The directors got a good deal amount of access to the Red Sox/Fenway/Players, but to me they didnt take advantage of it like they should have.

I think the Red Sox winning it all really threw a wrench into the whole storyline, and forced some changes that the Farrelly's discuss in the DVD.

Fever Pitch is a must see for the little things they completely nail. My personal favorite... the old "I'm taping the game and someone in a restaurant starts talking about the game" deal. I have literally done the BLAH BLAH BLAH thing in that situation.

18
Dodger Stadium is the Makka, you need to make your pilgrimage.

The ending was awful but I enjoyed the rest of the movie. 3 great stuff, that.
24
I need to get the directors cut to hear those comments. Very curious what the plan was before they won the world series.

Did you give away all your tickets for tonight?

27. If you want to know how the movie was going to end, then read the book about following Arsenal in England, or see the original movie, which has so many advantages over this remake that it is ridiculous, the first of which is that Jimmy Fallon is not involved.

28
No response from anyone. I think it was at the end of a thread or just no interest.

29
Thanks, but I have no interest in reading a book or watching a movie about soccer.

The best bit in the soccer version of the movie is when the Colin Firth guy is driving in the car with his girlfriend. She's talking to him about something deeply important and he's listening to the radio in the background. He hears about some injury and blurts F*!! Again a situation I've been in countless times.

Maybe I got suckered, but looking back one of the things that I think made me a young Dodger fan was the sense of tradition. Some of that probably came out of growing up around Vero Beach.

Just think of how all of us get excited about DTs sense of community. Well it is stronger when you all meet in the real world, and the people that you call names here are looking you eyeball to eyeball.

I personally have enjoyed learning about the Brooklyn team from the reminiscing of older folks that really had a passion for them, and what I get is that to many of them, "Dem Bums" were sort of an everyman's team and made the effort to stay connected to the community around them. That was maintained in Vero.

I think that's also why the move hurt them so much.

On that note, sometimes people here seem very much like The Spirt of Brooklyn.

30
I'll take one! I'll brave people complaining about the new parking system tonight!

33 - I want a full report.

32 heh, Spirt -> Spirit

33
Great, I'll send it over.

BHSPORTSGUY or LAT are you going to the game tonight?

32
I will be so bold as to say that I know a fair amount of the history of the Dodgers franchise, but the problem I have with the people who wish to cling on to the Brooklyn days is that they are often dismissive of the Los Angeles fans.

The Dodgers were not going to be operated in Brooklyn as some sort of museum piece or cultural institution that somehow made them a superior franchise to other teams.

Ultimately, the Dodgers, whether run by Charles Ebbets, the McGreeveys, Branch Rickey, the O'Malleys, News Corp, or the McCourts, are an entertainment business. We the fans may choose to endow the team with some special glitz and glamor, but ultimately, the Dodgers are just a business.

Fans want something more, but a business can't be operated on sentiment and nostalgia. You can sell the nostalgia if you think it works though.

Uh oh- PECOTA sees the West this way:

AZ 88-74
SD 86-76
LA 80-82
CO 79-83
SF 79-83

1 win out of last place?

36 Yep, I will be there. Infield Reserve behind home plate.

33 Happy to chime in on the Parking and other park details too. Oh, I guess how the team looks but it may be a little early for that.

38 I love BP but they do not have the best record (as if anyone does) of predicting division winners.

30 Thanks, but I have no interest in reading a book or watching a movie about soccer.

Fever Pitch (the book, anyway) is about soccer the same way Citizen Kane is about sleds.

There are some things that are just universal about being the fan of a sports team, and that book captures the essence of it better than anything else I've read.

Historically I don't think Pecota has a leg to stand on when it comes to team wins. Ask White Sox fans how wrong it has been with their team. Or Detroit last year and on and on.

I will be armed with a camera and see if I can get any decent shots of the parking area. I am aiming for the Academy Gate, ingress and egress point for discriminating South Pasadenans since 1992.

39
I've lost your email, send me a message with your location. We can come upto you but you can't come down to us. I'll be there about 1 1/2 hours early to check out the new digs.

Bob check your email.

40
Good point, I'll give it a shot.

Historically I don't think Pecota has a leg to stand on when it comes to team wins

This seems beside the point. The point is how well PECOTA does relative to other prediction schemes. I don't know the answer to that question, but I would guess that PECOTA does relatively well.

Kemp again--who has the most HRs in spring training for the D's.

I'll be happy to report on the parking and the all you can eat pavilion. My brother bought me tickets for my birthday and he was jonesing to try the pavilion thing.

41 Did anyone predict the Tigers to do well last year? PECOTAs 83-79 seems better than most people gave them credit for.

Yes, it's made some mistakes, but so has any other projection system or any expert. Dismissing someone because they were wrong about one thing is pointless. We've all made mistakes.

Nate Silver actually makes some personal adjustments to PECOTA and came up with this:

Diamondbacks 88-74
San Diego Padres 86-76
Los Angeles Dodgers 82-80
San Francisco Giants 81-81
Colorado Rockies 76-86

I have my ticket and am all ready to go.

Academy Gate or bust!

PECOTA had the 2006 Dodgers at 87 wins. It had 5 of the 6 division winners right (if you consider us a division winner). Their biggest boot was Cleveland 88 wins- but if you read their '07 annual you'll see how historically freakish the 06/07 Indians have been. Wish we could see the RS/RA that drive these standings.

Kemp is starting to get a little feisty.

Apparently Maine made the mortal sin of walking the opposing pitcher, who Loney drove in.

Fernando Tatis is in the Mets' lineup

Damn, I got the Mets game on DTV, but ist thier other game.

52

and he is BITTER

Bob,

I will be heading for the Academy gate too. I wonder how congested it will be turning right before the Golden Gate (?). I may even try parking outside and walking in, but I will see how my passengers feel about that.

I keep reading how Arizona is gonna surprise everyone this year and win the division, but I just don't see it. Even IF Randy Johnson holds up, their 3-5 starters are just average at best.

And their offense seems to be counting on several rookies or young players to show up and contribute immediately.

They just seem to have a lot more "ifs" than we do, and nowhere near as good a pitching staff.

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I had no idea our hero was in the NL West now.
http://tinyurl.com/yrc86e

The MLB live box has been frozen for what seems like an hour.

I would be all over a Freeway Series ticket if I lived there. :-(

57 That was a shocker to me too, Eric

56 Here's my reasoning. There are three worthwhile teams in the division, the Diamondbacks, Padres, and Dodgers. The Diamondbacks have two of the three best starters in the division, and compared to the Dodgers, their 3-5 really isn't bad. Penny is much better than Davis, but is there much difference between Wolf and Tomko versus Livan and Micah Owings?

Offensively, this team is much better than the Dodgers and the Padres. Both those teams don't have any shot at a stand out hitter as they are currently constructed. Between Drew, Quentin, Young and Tracy, the Diamondbacks could have the four best hitters among the contending teams. If they falter, they have a lot of depth to back them up. The Diamondbacks simply recognize that their young players are their best players, and they are using them to their full advantage.

But what do the DBacks have for Veteran Leadership™? Do they have Veterans who are Committed to Winning™, or just a bunch of young players who only want to put up big numbers?

I guess I'm not convinced that Randy Johnson is still one of the three best starters in the division. His ERA was 5.00 last year, and Arizona has a far better hitter's park than NY.

And is Owings their 5th starter? BP's depth chart has Edgar Gonzalez listed, but that could be out of date.

63

Yea, its Gonzalez, pretty tough to think he is better than anyone based on limited data... well see. If (BIG IF) the Unit is healthy hes pretty solid, not a 5 ERA guy I dont think, but not one the divisions best either.

Olberman just said on the Dan Patrick show that the Giants could compete if Russ Ortiz is back.

Gammons picked the Dodgers to win due to their pitching depth.

Olberman just said on the Dan Patrick show that the Giants could compete if Russ Ortiz is back

That comment is special...

If you keep sounding the Russ Ortiz alarm, we'll ignore it and then we'll be caught unprepared for a sneak attack.

59
But how do you decide which child to take?

Russ Ortiz is in the majors.
Mark Prior is in the minors.

Discuss.

Cite comparisons when relevant.

But how do you decide which child to take?

It's usually the first-born male, which I believe in this case would be Etienne

The MLB box score froze at 2-2. Unfrozen MLB box score now shows the Mets up 12-2.

The Mets' scoring included a 3-run HR by Fernando Tatis

68 My wife, obviously. She needs a break!

When choosing a child to go to an event in our family, we use a complicated seeding process, complete with an NCAA-style selection committee made up of parents, grandparents, and neighbors. You get a bye in the first round if your room is clean and you brushed your teeth that night. Competitions are decided based on who can complete their chores first.

I assumed with 15 kids you had multiple wifes. So which wife?

Competitions are decided based on who can complete their chores first.

That would be CCI (chore completion index). If you complete a lot of chores away from home, you get a higher score.

Children of UCLA alums don't do many chores on the road.

Gosh, just saw the boxscore. Had to do a double-take when I saw L. Gonzalez pitching. I thought, "Wow, they're desperate!" (Yeah, I know, I know.) But looking at the other guys pitching today, they're almost that desperate.

Well, at least Kemp went yard.

Tatis - that's painful. But I'm glad the guy's not on our team. I hope he doesn't go all Valentin on us and have a great year in revenge.

Children of UCLA alums don't do many chores on the road

And when they do, it's usually the easiest chores.

If the Mets wish to play Fernando Tatis at third instead of David Wright, I would say, "Be my guest" and then go to Las Vegas and bet a lot on the Braves and Phillies.

37 Bob, you're one of the "older folks" I was talking about. :-)

I'm not all up and bothered by the move to AZ, just sort of sad to see it. I agree on the whole business thing (and maybe the tradition thing was partly "branding" in the 70s), it also seems like a good move for the players, coaches, heck the whole organization. I was just trying to say that there might be some merit to the idea that Vero beach represented something beyond the ordinary for a lot of fans. Sort of like DT is more than a "blog".

74
When I was in Vegas I visited an old friend who has a backyard that could use your family. He has a full length outdoor basketball court with that outdoor sports floor. This can be turned into a tennis court, volleyball, numerous games built into the floor for the kids. Not to mention the putting green and batting cage with a pitchback screen. He is a single male with few friends and this awesome yard is wasted on him except for when his friends visit him from LA.

56 I keep reading how Arizona is gonna surprise everyone this year and win the division

The thing is, if everyone thinks Arizona will win, it won't consititute much of a surprise if they do.

I really think all 5 teams are in it, because the better teams are also more likely to succumb to injury woes. Well, OK, the Giants are bad AND fragile, but if they get luckier than anyone else...

The Dodgers had just better hope that their injuries are not at 2b or SS. Or catcher.

I agree. I think the Giants bullpen will let them down but they have the wildcard in Linecrum who could stablize a bad situation. All the teams have a shot at the division as I don't see anyone heads and tails above the rest. Should be a fun year.

why does the box score have gonzo pitching?

76, 78 This is my role on this blog, to be the straight man to funny guys like you.

81 We have a neighbor with a sports court like that. Kids are over there all the time during the spring and summer. No putting green or batting cage -- yet. I hope to put a putting green in my backyard one of these summers.

to be the straight man

Not that there's anything wrong with that

At least Brian Akin pitched a good inning. Had great numbers last year in Vero Beach and Jacksonville, but he's 24.

I'm pretty sure the Luis Gonzalez who pitched is not the LF LuGo but the minor league pitcher who had pitched for Jacksonville. Guess it didn't matter much either way.

So the Dodgers play again tonight vs. Angels? Weird. As Grady Little said, it's because of the almighty dollar they scheduled these games today and not due to any logic or logistical sense.

New post coming up top.

Actually, two new posts coming up top.