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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

13-6
2007-04-23 08:49
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

You can see how the 2005 season continues to scar me in my latest contribution to SI.com's Fungoes blog. "Some folks" includes me.

You'll forgive some folks in Los Angeles if they're still a little gunshy about the Dodgers, the winningest team in the National League so far at 13-6. Two years ago, their team, just like this one, was 13-6 and leading the National League West, only to finish the year in disastrous 71-91, Jim Tracy- and Paul DePodesta-firing fashion.

The common assumption is that the 2007 Dodgers can suffer no similar collapse because they are deeper. Luis Gonzalez and Nomar Garciaparra have been producing, but many fans root for players like Matt Kemp and James Loney to rise from understudy status (see below). Meanwhile, strong Aprils by Mark Hendrickson and Brett Tomko have shown that the Dodgers can handle an injury to a starting pitcher (Jason Schmidt) before even asking promising youngsters like Chad Billingsley and the rehabilitating Hong-Chih Kuo to move into the rotation.

When Russell Martin hit a walkoff grand slam in the bottom of the 10th inning Saturday, an inning after the Dodgers scored the tying run on a walk, wild pitch, error and passed ball, you sensed that the opening scene of the "How They Reached October" highlights package was in the can.

But when Juan Pierre dropped a fly ball to center field Sunday, allowing the Pittsburgh Pirates to score their third run on their way to a 7-3 victory in Los Angeles, the rewrite team had its say. ...

I have no desire to get into a DePodesta argument today, but my feeling is that although the Dodgers are deeper this year thanks to the maturing farm system, this year's team could be in just as much trouble if the same number of injuries again hit the most critical personnel.

So much crashed down upon the Dodgers at once in 2005, it made the overall roster look worse than it was at the season's outset. After all, plenty of people, DePodesta fans or not, predicted that team to do well.

When you look at the '07 team, even with Mike Lieberthal as a backup, Martin appears almost indispensible - instrumental to the team's success. And no one truly knows what Kemp, Kuo, Billingsley, Loney or Andy LaRoche would do over a full season if forced to carry the load.

Are the Dodgers significantly better off at third base in 2007 than they were in 2005? Significantly better off in the outfield? I think these are fair questions.

Perhaps the pitcher's mound is the one place that this year's team seems in significantly better shape. But pitching is inherently unstable - the area most vulnerable to capricious injuries.

Personally, I'm optimistic about the 2007 Dodgers - but then again, I was optimistic in '05. Given that the 2006 team followed a midsummer 3-15 tailspin with a 17-1 reboot, all I know is this: One stretch of 18 or 19 games only sets the stage for the next.

Also in the column, I asked five NL West bloggers what the most common misconception was about the teams they follow - take a look.

Comments (262)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-04-23 09:09:10
1.   D4P
The common assumption is that the 2007 Dodgers can suffer no similar collapse because they are deeper

And yet, the Dodgers haven't fared too well in the few games where at least a few starters were given the day off

2007-04-23 09:11:56
2.   underdog
Well said. I'm apprehensively positive about this year's model, excited but nervous.

There's no question in my mind that the pitching is unilaterally deeper, both on the roster and those in AAA. Starting pitching and the bullpen will make or break this team.

2007-04-23 09:13:44
3.   underdog
Off subject, but this is a tricky poll up on the LA Times:
Who is the best first baseman in L.A. Dodgers history?
Greg Brock
Ron Fairly
Steve Garvey
Gil Hodges
Eric Karros
Eddie Murray
Wes Parker

Assuming it means all-around, as opposed to defensively, then it makes it a harder call. Murray did most of his damage before LA. Parker was a great defensive firstbaseman and not a bad hitter, but don't know if he was the best all-around. Still, he'd get my vote, followed by, dare I say it, Karros...

2007-04-23 09:14:47
4.   underdog
(This coming from someone who knows very little about Gil Hodges. But I could see voting for him, too. And Steve Garvey, but I never liked him...)
2007-04-23 09:20:27
5.   Benaiah
This a small note, but you got the score in yesterday's game wrong. It was 7-5 not 7-3.
2007-04-23 09:25:42
6.   Bob Timmermann
For as much grief as people give Steve Garvey now, I don't see how he would not be chosen as the best first baseman in L.A. Dodgers history.

Murray played just three years in L.A. and he had a good year (by his standards) just once. Parker was a consummate fielder, but he only had one year where he hit well. Hodges was breaking down by the team he got to L.A.

Yes, Garvey couldn't throw the ball, but he did hit. Like Nomar, most of his value was from batting average, but he did that.

2007-04-23 09:26:02
7.   Benaiah
This is a quote from the article:

"Tim Lincecum is striking out 27.5 hitters per nine innings in AAA"

This is borderline impossible. He has struck out every single out and he has a dropped strike three?

2007-04-23 09:30:46
8.   Bob Timmermann
That's hyperbole, son...
2007-04-23 09:31:53
9.   Jon Weisman
5 - Nuts - thanks.

7 - Hyperbole is allowed outside of Dodger Thoughts.

3 - The most noteworthy name on that poll is the esteemed Greg Brock. Was Mike Kinkade not available?

2007-04-23 09:32:23
10.   Benaiah
7 - He is striking out 13.5 per nine innings in AAA, which is still excellent, but not impossible.
2007-04-23 09:33:28
11.   Benaiah
8 - Ouch. Sarcasm doesn't read well. I guess it was just so specific that I thought it was the real number. Sorry.
2007-04-23 09:37:14
12.   Bob Timmermann
I guess I need a sarcasm detector.

Like that would be a useful invention.

2007-04-23 09:40:25
13.   Benaiah
12 - No, I need one, and a thesaurus/dictionary. What I meant by sarcasm was, I didn't understand that the quote as hyperbole. You were fine.

I wouldn't mind some sort of sarcasm indicator, but I guess that all the winks would take away from the humor, such as it is.

2007-04-23 09:49:43
14.   ToyCannon
I won't be LAT'd:)
Per Joey - Milton is back on the DL. You can include JD but since Ned neither traded him or waived him and he left on his own I didn't include him.

After the spate of ex-Dodger injuries I was wondering if Ned has traded or released anyone who is performing at a higher level then when they were with the Dodgers so I went over the transaction wire. It is possible I've missed somebody.

Milton Bradley hurt again
Gagne hurt again
Willie Aybar missing in action
E Jackson is starting but he still has the same problems he had with us a year 1/2 later
Tiffany is still out due to surgery, should return this summer but he's no longer even mentioned as a prospect
Navarro is starting but a year later still hasn't done anything to date other then play alot
Pedroza has been moved to catcher
Ruggiano is in AAA
Joel Guzman is in AAA, both Guzman and Ruggiano are scuffling for Durham, but it is early in the year.
Sanchez was good until he got hurt, then suspended, then hurt again.
Milton has been okay when healthy but not healthy enough to warrant much concern.
Choi is out of Major League baseball.
Robles is in AAA
Seo struggling in Tampa Rotation
Baez barely a setup man in Baltimore
Jason Philips backup catcher in Toronto
Jose Cruz on the short side of a platoon but doing what he does best, smacking lefties
Ketchner - doing nicely in AAA, have to wait to see what he does when given a Major League chance with the Padres
Odalis Perez - Yikes
Dessens -
Schmoll - AAA fodder
Cody Ross - part time player, can't crack the starting lineup of one of the worse outfields in the league
Blake Johnson & Julio Pimental - to early to tell as both are in A ball for KC
Ricky Ledee - out of baseball
Johnny Nunez - Heard great things but the 21 year old is in low A and has been creamed so far in limited innings.
Jose Valentin - Now we have a winner, excellent year last year but he left as a free agent and wasn't released or traded but who wouldn't rather him in CF last year and this year?
Jeff Weaver - Nuff said

Players he has traded for or signed and then traded or released during his reign include Baez, Carter, Seo, and Dessens.

2007-04-23 09:59:46
15.   Marty
It has to be Garvey.
2007-04-23 10:07:58
16.   old dodger fan
14 Great Report-Thanks

I was surprised to see "Gagne hurt again". He has appeared 4 times and pitched well, I hate to see it. Rangers web site says, "Injured hip-day-to-day". Does anyone know more?

Some of the guys above I find myself rooting against just to justify the decision to let them go. I just can't bring myself to root against Gagne and I really do wish Aybar the best.

2007-04-23 10:11:42
17.   ToyCannon
16
Strained hip flexor and is day to day. It looked bad when he made the pitch and left the mound but this shouldn't be very serious and he could be pitching by the end of the week.

Love this quote I pulled off of BP:

""I said, 'Manny, let me ask you something. I was just wondering why you get back in the batter's box after ball four.' He said, 'I don't keep track of the balls.' He said, 'I don't keep track of the strikes, either, until I got two.' Then he said, 'Duke, I'm up there looking for a pitch I can hit. If I don't get it, I wait for the umpire to tell me to go to first. Isn't that what you're paying me to do?'"
--Dan Duquette, former Red Sox GM.

2007-04-23 10:16:57
18.   ToyCannon
I rarely root against ex-Dodgers unless they left on their own or I didn't like them as Dodgers in the 1st place. E Jackson, Aybar, Ruggiano, Joel Guzman, Choi, and Ketchner were all favorites of mine and I hope they succeed.
2007-04-23 10:19:23
19.   KOREAN GUY
No love for Eric Karros? He never put up spectacular numbers, but his consistency was better than average, no?...(?) From his very first year he was consistent, up until the last 2 1/2 years(as a dodger)...Mike piazza's last year numbers remind me of Karros's numbers latter part of his dodger career...

He did hold the record for most HR as a Dodger at some point, right? not just as a 1basemen but in the history of dodgers, no? (LA)

2007-04-23 10:19:48
20.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, I loved hearing from other bloggers in your Fungoes piece, and I hope you continue that periodically.
2007-04-23 10:27:19
21.   DXMachina
14 - Antonio Perez is in AAA for Oakland.
2007-04-23 10:29:13
22.   capdodger
14 Wasn't Choi re-signed by Ned before he was cut? Or was that during Kim Ng's Reign of Terror?
2007-04-23 10:29:50
23.   tskent
11 days till Dodger Heaven....
2007-04-23 10:31:17
24.   Bob Timmermann
Karros is the alltime L.A. Dodger home run leader with 270. Duke Snider holds the franchise record with 389, 316 in Brooklyn and 73 in L.A.

That said, Garvey wins out over Karros in my book for longevity and also playing on teams that did things like win playoff games.

2007-04-23 10:36:07
25.   kngoworld
22 ???

23 ???

2007-04-23 10:37:33
26.   dsfan
I enjoyed reading Toy Cannon's list. Something to think about the next time one gets worked up over players who are sent packing. Realistically, most franchises should have a list that is comparable to that one. Reason being, no one should know a player better than the employer. It appears Ned is listening to Logan White when evaluating the minor leaguers, getting rid of the ones least likely to succeed.
2007-04-23 10:41:35
27.   DXMachina
22 It was Ned who re-signed Choi.

A couple of other Dodgers who've left the Dodgers since Colletti took over are Jayson Werth, who is playing, and Bill Mueller, who isn't.

2007-04-23 10:43:09
28.   Zak
Which current Dodger has hit the most home runs for LA? The number probably has to be the lowest for any team in the ML. Is it Kent? I can't think of anyone else.
2007-04-23 10:45:50
29.   Jon Weisman
14 - That was worthwhile - thanks.
2007-04-23 10:47:10
30.   capdodger
28 Only the NorCal teams, Colorado, Nats, and Twins have hit fewer home runs than the LAD.
2007-04-23 10:57:00
31.   capdodger
27 Thanks. I only bring up C--i (May his massive smile brighten the days of those around him) because he was a Ned sign and waive player.

That said, his loss was cheap.

2007-04-23 10:59:54
32.   Faramond
14 --- That list is very interesting.

I think it does show a positive for Ned, though perhaps a limited one. I suspect that most players traded or released will go on to do worse than they did before. That's why they were expendable in the first place, right, because it had become clear they weren't going to produce? I think many other GMs would also have lists very much like this one. How many current Dodgers would make another GMs list of players who have done worse after moving on? Perhaps not that many. But Baez, Carter, Hendrikson, Seo, all did worse right after they were obtained.

And yet, for all of the people who worry ( including me ) about Ned selling low, he hasn't been burned by what he's traded away yet.

I would add a "failed to resign" player to that list of players Ned has seen move on, though.

JD Drew --- doing very well in Boston, so far, as long as he stays HEALTHY

I have a feeling Drew may never hit 25 homers again, but I'd still love to have him.

2007-04-23 11:07:43
33.   ToyCannon
If it wasn't for a certain CF I'd be feeling very giddy about this team and the future. The prospects just seem to keep growing on tree's and we have a valid replacement for every position by either a vet or a prospect. I think the difference between a 2005 collapse and this team is very large. Don't think we are the best team in the NL but I do think that unless Furcal/Martin go down for a long time this team will be in the thick of the race all year.
1st Nomar - Kid Loney
Vet Saenz
Possible Future Dunlap
Far Future Orr

2nd Kent - Kid Abreu
Vet M Anderson, Martinez, Valdez Timo Perez
SS Furcal - Kid Abreu
Vet Valdez, T Perez
Future DeJesus, Hu

3b Betemit - Kid La Roche
Possible Future - DeWitt
Far Future - Bell

C Martin - Vet Lieberthal, Stinnet
Far Future Backup - May, Santana

RF - Ethier - Kid Kemp, Loney
Vet Clark,Bigbie
Possible Future(Raglani, Paul)
CF - Pierre - Kid Kemp
Vet Clark, Bigbie
Far Future - Mattingly

LF - Gonzo - Kid Kemp, Loney, Young
Vet Clark, Anderson, Bigbie
Possible Future(Hoffman, Rogowski)
SP - Schimdt, Lowe, Penny, Wolf,
Vets - Tomko, Hendrickson, Mays, DJ Houlton
Kids - Kuo, Billingsly, Miller, Stultz
Future - Elbert
Limited future - Orenduff, MeGrew
Far Future - Kershaw, Morris, S Johnson

RP - Saito, Broxton, Tsao, Beimel
Vets - White, Hamulack
Kids - Meloan, LaMura, Alexander, Akin
C Alveraz, W White
Future - Hammes, Troncoso
Far Future -
Really hard to gauge prospects as relief pitchers. Probably some failed starters will be the ones to make the most impact.

2007-04-23 11:07:52
34.   still bevens
32 I think the biggest issue with Drew is that he was perceived as being the key to our offense alongside Kent and that included hitting his share of home runs. In Boston he's producing very well, but not with the same impressive home run displays that will be put on by Manny and Ortiz and that's totally fine with his new perceived role. But it will be interesting to see how he holds up, especially since Francona doesn't seem to be giving him as many days off as Grady did.
2007-04-23 11:14:30
35.   JoeyP
14--Bradley isnt on the DL according to the Oakland MLB site.

There were the AP notes from yesterday: "Oakland CF Milton Bradley left the game in the sixth inning with a left hamstring strain. He is day to day."

2007-04-23 11:14:48
36.   Telemachos
I've always thought of Drew as a "complimentary star" -- not someone you'd build your team around, but put him in a lineup with a superstar and he'll be quietly, tremendously productive.
2007-04-23 11:17:27
37.   KOREAN GUY
24 -

right, that playoff winning thing....sorry, i don't know too much about Garvey and his history in the playoffs and so forth...

Ok, so do you concede Karros as being the all-time 2ND greatest 1st basemen in Dodgers history? given the longevity and consistency?(30/100, 25/90...)

2007-04-23 11:17:47
38.   ToyCannon
35
4/23/2007
Bradley (hamstring) will likely be put on the 15-day DL, the Contra Costa Times reports.
2007-04-23 11:19:35
39.   underdog
I just want the Dodgers to bring up Ivan DeJesus so I can mispronounce his name, affect an accent a la John Turturro in Big Lebowski and say, "You don't mess with de Jesus."

That'll be funny. After quite a few beers it will anyway. Trust me.

Y'know, I thought more about it and realized I was just biased against Steve Garvey and he probably is the best one on that list. I still like Karros for consistency though, and Parker for defense. Greg Brock made the list either a) to placate a certain Dodger Thoughts commenter, or b) because it was better than having Franklin Stubbs.

2007-04-23 11:19:41
40.   ToyCannon
34
When I've watched him this year he seems to be playing like a young colt. I wonder if all those surgeries he had in the winter of 2005/2006 have all healed. Still waiting for the power. Sure wish he was our CF
2007-04-23 11:23:57
41.   Benaiah
36 - I think it was a great signing by the Red Sox. If they batted him 1st or 2nd then between him and Youk the table would nearly always be set for Ortiz and Manny. Still, he is a fine number 5 too.
2007-04-23 11:28:22
42.   bhsportsguy
Its been posted before on the Dodgers.com site but a nice story on the recording of Sandy Koufax's first no hitter in 1962 on NPR this morning.

http://tinyurl.com/ys6y44

2007-04-23 11:28:58
43.   underdog
I think the problem I always had with Bradley wasn't his attitude, and he's always had a lot of talent - it's his being so injury prone. I just never trusted that he'd stay healthy for most of a season and don't think the Dodgers did either. That said, yes, I'd still rather have him in CF right now, but there'd be some issues attached to that.
2007-04-23 11:29:18
44.   D4P
Drew makes a lot more sense to me ahead of Ortiz and Manny. His power appears to be mostly gone, but he still gets on base an awful lot.
2007-04-23 11:33:14
45.   Benaiah
37 - Karros had some really good years, but his OBP was entirely dependent on his batting average. You can't be an elite 1B if half the time you are flirting with the Sabremetric Mendoza line (.300 OBP). He had OBP of .304, .287, .310, .316 and .303 in 11 seasons, and three other times it was under .330. Of course this was before most people looked at OBP, but still.
2007-04-23 11:34:16
46.   blue22
44 - Youkilis (.378 career OBP) and Drew (.394) hitting in front of Papi and Manny would be terrifying.
2007-04-23 11:35:15
47.   DXMachina
37 Ok, so do you concede Karros as being the all-time 2ND greatest 1st basemen in Dodgers history?

I wouldn't. Gil Hodges (361 HR as a Dodger) is the greatest first baseman Dodger history. Garvey is merely the best since the team moved to LA.

2007-04-23 11:36:44
48.   blue22
Would it be too premature to put Nomar on that list? I mean, Greg Brock? Really?
2007-04-23 11:38:14
49.   bhsportsguy
38 I heard Will Carroll this morning say that he thinks Milton Bradley will end up on the DL as much for his own protection from injurying himself further.

Will also reports that he does not think that Jason Schmidt will be out much past his return date which would be April 30th. Not sure if this is a sign but I read where Grady will flip flop Hendrickson and Tomko's next starts in San Diego, which means that Hendrickson would be on track to pitch on May 2nd, which would also line up with Schmidt coming off the DL.

We won't anything until later next week if Schmidt starts throwing again and folks may think it okay to push it one more start because Hendrickson's next start wouldn't be until May 8th, so that would give Schmidt over 3 weeks off to see how his shoulder reacts.

The opinions on Schmidt varies from medical folks like Will Carroll to "scouts" that Buster Olney has talked to that believe Schmidt has some real problems.

2007-04-23 11:39:45
50.   screwballin
From CBS:

According to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, the injury that Rangers closer Eric Gagne suffered on Sunday vs. Oakland was a strained gluteus maximus muscle. It is not believed to be serious. "It's my first butt injury," Gagne said. "I feel like I got shot in the butt."
Analysis: That was good news for the Rangers because it was not related to the arm or back injuries that led to surgeries in each area the last two years. An hour after he left the field, Gagne said he was already feeling better. He planned to rest Sunday night, ice the area and also take anti-inflamatories.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-04-23 11:40:23
51.   chazmac138
Nobody's got any love for the Crimedog and the 18 games he played at first for us? Only played a handful games but boy howdy!
2007-04-23 11:41:05
52.   blue22
or Franklin Stubbs!
2007-04-23 11:44:06
53.   D4P
Ja(y)son Phillips? Brian Myrow? Norihiro Nakamura?
2007-04-23 11:45:39
54.   istillhateniedenfuer
In all time Dodger 1st baseman, I think that you have to go with Gil Hodges as #1, then the Father of Our Nation as #2. Although Eric Karros ended up with good numbers for the Dodgers, my grandmother could take him in a 40 yard dash, and I dare say that no one hit more non-clutch home runs (and fewer clutch home runs) than Eric.
2007-04-23 11:46:06
55.   ToyCannon
Boog Powell - I was ticked that Garvey wouldn't take a day off so I could see the Boog play.
2007-04-23 11:51:01
56.   KOREAN GUY
51-
52-
53-

K, guys...I get your point. Karros "descent player, bad OBP, Nakamura comparisons, etc."

i should go do in-depth research, before making statements....avg, hr, rbi, consistency does not equal "greatest 1b" stats or mentions...i get it. no need to be sarcastic....i just don't like to give an opinion on players that played in another generation that I can only form an opininon based on other people's accounts..and or stats. sorry.

2007-04-23 11:56:52
57.   LA Native
For first base it has to be for LA Dodger rankings, Garvey and then Karros. I would give Murray #3 for his one very good year even though he was obviously past his prime at this point and then Parker #4 for his defense and consistency.

People forget Garvey was an excellent defensive first baseman apart from his throwing. He must have saved Billy Russell a dozen errors a year. He was the best hitter on all 4 of the pennant winning Dodger teams he was on.

I wasn't even aware Hodges played in LA. It must have been for a year or two. I guess I would give Hodges the overall Dodger top spot, but I think he was all but done by the time he was in LA.

2007-04-23 11:56:53
58.   Benaiah
56 - Don't be sorry, I don't think anyone's intention was to make you feel foolish. I remember when I was a kid I had a Karros rookie card and I treasured it. No one realized at the time that he was anything but very good.
2007-04-23 11:58:14
59.   KOREAN GUY
54-

your grandma is apparently faster than most catchers and quite a number of other first basemens in baseball history....

any less clutch homeruns? I remember from the top of my head, a clutch hr he hit vs giants reliever F.rodriguez, a clutch game winning hr vs. b-h kim(dbacks), ....um.. maybe all those hrs he hit vs. rockies a small percentage can be labeled as "clutch"??

just a feeling i had about karros....because i followed the dodgers as a die hard fan in the 90s-current.. prior to that, i leave to the experts..

2007-04-23 11:59:55
60.   bhsportsguy
I think Karros would have been a pretty good player playing with Hodges' teams in 40's-50's and Garvey's teams in '70s and '80s.

Karros never had much opportunity to shine in postseason play. Garvey was probably the biggest "star" (my favorite players were Reggie Smith, Ron Cey and Dusty Baker) on his teams. Of course, Gil Hodges slumped so poorly that congregations prayed for him.

In LA Dodger history, I think you can compare Garvey and Karros this way.
1. Who was the bigger star on his team? Garvey.
2. Who won an MVP? Garvey (Karros was Rookie of the Year).
3. Who played in more post-season, All-Star games, magazine covers, etc. Garvey.

Certainly Karros was a good player but just not the best first baseman in LA Dodger history.

2007-04-23 12:01:36
61.   ToyCannon
59
Karros is a solid number two in LA Dodger 1st base history. On one else is close and I did think it was close between Karros and Garvey. It is not like Garv had much of an OBP either as it was all tied up in his average. I think Garvey was the better glove though his size and throwing did hurt us alot while Karros hit during the offensive years.

I don't think anyone was making fun of your support for Karros.

2007-04-23 12:02:21
62.   screwballin
33 I see a lot of hopes on DT for Kemp to take over for Pierre, but I just don't see any evidence that the Dodgers see Matt as a major league centerfielder. All of their actions seem to be to the contrary, in fact:
1) Signing Pierre for 5 years
2) Trading for Clark when they needed a CF backup.
3) Zero CF innings for Kemp this season (he may have played there in ST, but I don't remember seeing him there.)

To me this seems like the Nomar to 3b vein here: It's wishful thinking that doesn't seem to be even remotely under consideration by the people making the decisions. Am I wrong about that?

2007-04-23 12:03:17
63.   bhsportsguy
Another reason to like Karros, a local boy who supports his alma mater, he funds a scholarship for the UCLA baseball team and is on a committee to upgrade Jackie Robinson Stadium.
2007-04-23 12:04:12
64.   old dodger fan
61 If you ever saw Wes Parker play 1st base you would agree that he at least belongs in the discussion.
2007-04-23 12:05:33
65.   ToyCannon
When I get home I'll check out the win shares between the two during their stints as LA Dodger 1st baseman. I bet it is very close.
I couldn't care less about his winning an MVP he didn't deserve. He wasn't even the best player on that team, that would go to Mr. Toy Cannon.
2007-04-23 12:07:42
66.   tskent
Does anyone have the stinkin telephone number for Dodger Stadium? I want to talk to someone in a clerical/customer service department. NOTHING ABOUT TICKETS PLEASE!!!
For the love of God.
2007-04-23 12:10:44
67.   ToyCannon
64I saw Wes Parker play 1st base and I also saw his best offensive year and his translated offensive stats from BP look much better then I would have thought. His career OPS is 726 but his translated OPS is 821. Man did he get punished playing DS during the mid 60's. So yes, he belongs in the discussion.
2007-04-23 12:11:41
68.   Penarol1916
56. I think that those guys were actually making fun of the inclusion of Greg Brock on the list, just taking off from someone asking before about no Franklin Stubbs. I don't think it had anything to do with you advocating for Karros.
2007-04-23 12:14:23
69.   tskent
Do any of you rascals have the 2007 media guide?

If so, how 'bout making yourself useful and post the info on where the Dodgers stay at on road trips. CQH..

2007-04-23 12:15:47
70.   blue22
56 - Totally! This was about Greg freakin' Brock on the list. Eric Karros certainly belongs on the list. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
2007-04-23 12:15:52
71.   GoBears
Karros is probably #2 or #3 in LA Dodger history just by process of elimination. I think Garvey, Karros, and Parker account for the bulk of those years, so it'd be hard for a 4th guy to sneak into the conversation.

Garvey had a career OPS+ of 116 (19 seasons, includes 4+ seasons as a part-timer early, and 4+ in SD). So his 10-yr OPS+ as a Dodger starter was higher. From 1973 to 1982, his OPS+ ranged from 101 to 137, with a media of 130 and a mean of 124.

Karros had a career OPS+ of 108 (14 seasons including one in Chicago and a part-time gig in Oakland). His best offensive season was better than Garvey's best (145 OPS+ vs. 137), but he was more mediocre overall.

Factor in defense, and I think it's pretty clear.

Parker's career OPS+ was 111. 9 full seasons with the Dodgers. Short career, done at 32.
Much better defense than Karros, so EK might drop to #3 in LA firstbasemandome.

2007-04-23 12:19:29
72.   GoBears
71. Oops. Median.
2007-04-23 12:20:59
73.   Icaros
I can't read 69 without picturing someone assembling a care package for NBC.
2007-04-23 12:28:34
74.   ToyCannon
I have to admit before I did some research I would have scoffed at the idea that Wes Parker belonged in the discussion.
According to BP:
Wes Parker - EQA - 285
Garvey 281
Karros 273

Yes, Parker had a shorter career but he played only for the LA Dodgers and was a member of two world championship teams.

2007-04-23 12:31:19
75.   Marty
And Parker hit for the cycle!
2007-04-23 12:36:21
76.   old dodger fan
74 Parker was on 2 WC teams? 1965 and what other year? Was he on the '63 team?
2007-04-23 12:37:28
77.   GoBears
74. Are those EQAs just for their Dodger years? For their Dodger-starter years? Or full careers?

Just trying to reconcile the EQA numbers with the OPS+ numbers (Per 71 ). Of course, I'd be happy to factor in Parker's superlative defense and call it even.

2007-04-23 12:38:41
78.   bhsportsguy
69 Its one thing to be a Ned supporter (though he does a pretty good job himself) but to call out everyone to make themselves useful, that's just not called for at any time.

Also if you did just a little work, you would discover that one, I posted where you can find the media guide online and two, if you want to spend some bucks you can get one at Dodger Stadium.

2007-04-23 12:40:48
79.   GoBears
75. And he was on the Brady Bunch!

Wait, is that right?

2007-04-23 12:48:28
80.   screwballin
This was in the LAT Morning Briefing today:

Not to put a damper on the Dodgers' fast start or anything, but local fans will be fascinated to scan some new statistics released by Forbes.

According to Forbes:

• The value of the Dodgers' franchise increased 31% last year, to $632 million, ranking the club fourth in the major leagues behind the New York Yankees and Mets and the Boston Red Sox.

• The Dodgers last year had the second-best operating income, $27.5 million, behind only the Florida Marlins.

• Frank McCourt bought the Dodgers for $421 million in 2004 and has seen the worth of the franchise jump more than 50% in only three years.

Despite this, McCourt raised ticket prices by up to 40% this season and the price of parking by 50%, a $5-a-car increase.

The Dodgers may not win the National League West this season, but it's obvious that for McCourt, 2007 is championship-or-bust in the Forbes Division.

2007-04-23 12:48:48
81.   bhsportsguy
79 Wes Parker, Don Drysdale, Joe Namath and Deacon Jones all played themselves with Greg being the central character with Drysdale, Bobby with Joe Namath and Peter with Deacon Joned. Wes Parker was the only one who came in at the end of the show as the date/boyfriend of Greg's "groovy" math teacher.

Other cameos as themselves on the Brady Bunch included:
Davy Jones (Marcia)
Don Ho (Cindy and Bobby)
Desi Arnaz, Jr. (Marcia)

I was going by memory (no IMDB.com fact check)

Wes Parker may have the most memorable role on the Brady Bunch, Steve Garvey has done several things on the screen while Eric Karros has a "Port Charles" appearance to his name (this I looked up.)

2007-04-23 12:50:49
82.   capdodger
78 If you and two other people answer his question, maybe he'll let us be.
2007-04-23 12:51:53
83.   blue22
81 - Wes Parker may have the most memorable role on the Brady Bunch, Steve Garvey has done several things on the screen while Eric Karros has a "Port Charles" appearance to his name (this I looked up.)

Sounds like a tie-breaker to me. Wes Parker it is!

Although Garvey might be most memorable (to Cheap Seats devotees only maybe) for his Deep Sea Fishing special from the 70s. If you factor that appearance in, I'd be inclined to give him the edge.

2007-04-23 12:53:51
84.   capdodger
80 It looks like Frank and his creditors made a good call with the LBO. If only my house would appreciate as quickly.
2007-04-23 12:54:16
85.   dzzrtRatt
Garvey is #1
Parker is #2

Everyone else is a testament to the fact that the Dodgers don't grow good first basemen. If forced to choose, I would put Murray #3 and Nomar #4. At least Nomar and Murray excelled, if only briefly so far. In less time, both players had more of an impact on the Dodgers fortunes than Eric Karros, who merely appeared on the field and in the lineup card without doing hardly anything exceptional. Sure, like all players who play MLB regularly, he had a few big moments. That's just a reflection of Woody Allen's rule that 90 percent of life is just showing up. Karros showed up. That's about all I can say for him.

The fact that during much of his tenure he was the Dodgers' second-best offensive player is a good indication of why the 1990s were such a forgettable period in Dodger history.

In 10 years, I hope the list will be:

Loney #1
Nomar #2
Garvey #3

2007-04-23 12:55:50
86.   bhsportsguy
82 This is it.

http://tinyurl.com/3294v7

2007-04-23 12:58:03
87.   blue22
85 - Loney #1
Nomar #2
Garvey #3

I don't see how it's possible that they both surpass Garvey at 1B (without a couple MVP-quality seasons from Nomar over the next 2-3 years).

2007-04-23 12:58:35
88.   bhsportsguy
I think Eric Karros is not getting enough credit here, not sure if that is due to his complaints about his Oakland A's tenure or not.

I don't think you can give Eddie Murray or Nomar that ranking on the list.

2007-04-23 12:59:51
89.   ToyCannon
77
Full careers, I wouldn't know how to break out just the Dodger years but for Parker it was both.
2007-04-23 13:02:06
90.   Bob Timmermann
Wes Parker led the NL in sacrifices in 1965 with 19!

Since then, the following Dodgers have led the league in sacrifices:
Orel Hershiser
Brett Butler
Jose Offerman

2007-04-23 13:02:20
91.   ToyCannon
The guy that should be the greatest LA Dodger 1st baseman has an EQA of 289 for his career.
2007-04-23 13:04:17
92.   al bundy
From the "It Should be Noted" Department: Joe Sheehan at BP pointed out today that Juan Pierre cost the D's 2 runs yesterday because of his arm. Once in the 1st when he played Jason Bay's shallow fly as if the runner would tag and in the process of making a quick transfer of the ball to his throwing hand, dropped the ball. The second occurrence was in the 6th when Baustista challenged Pierre on a ball hit to left center and was safe at second, and later scored on McLouth's single to center (with no play at the plate because Juan can't throw).

Now I can't get the lyric/tune out of my head, "Juan can't throw," sung to the tune of "Johnny Can't Read."

2007-04-23 13:06:18
93.   Benaiah
85 - Karros was very good a few years.

1995: .298/.369/.535/.904 145 OPS+, 32 HR
1999: .304/.362/.550/.912 131 OPS+, 34 HR

He was about league average as a 1B for most of his time as a Dodger, but those two years were both very nice.

2007-04-23 13:07:02
94.   ToyCannon
88
I don't know, kind of hard to ignore his 1990 season which is probably the greatest single season for a Dodger 1st baseman. I mean an EQA of 337. It was his 2nd best season and were talking a HOF here.
2007-04-23 13:09:17
95.   ToyCannon
Days like this I get very little work done. If only I could combine passion with work instead of ignoring work for passion.
2007-04-23 13:09:41
96.   blue22
91 - Mike Piazza?
2007-04-23 13:09:59
97.   Jacob L
Single greatest tv cameo by a member of the Los Angeles Dodgers? Mike Piazza on "Baywatch." If there was any doubt.
2007-04-23 13:10:40
98.   Jacob L
91 Loney?
2007-04-23 13:12:14
99.   ToyCannon
98
No, every Karros hater should know this guy. Over 1000 at bats but very very few as a Dodger.

The Gagne injury can't be to simple as he was just put on the 15 Day DL.

2007-04-23 13:15:41
100.   kinbote
62 - while i think it's true that we're stuck with pierre, i think the nomar-to-3b possibility still has some legs. it's possible there's some kind of secret timetable before essentially giving up on betemit. if nomar is willing to move AND it would improve our team, we'd be foolish not to consider it seriously. i salivate at the thought of loney at 1b for us . . .
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-04-23 13:16:20
101.   Benaiah
99 - Eddie Murray?
2007-04-23 13:18:59
102.   D4P
Hint for 91: The guy we got instead has/d a career ERA+ of 118
2007-04-23 13:21:00
103.   robohobo
99 - Konerko
2007-04-23 13:22:17
104.   capdodger
103 - I was going to say the same.
2007-04-23 13:22:23
105.   ToyCannon
103Winner
2007-04-23 13:22:50
106.   dzzrtRatt
Konerko!
2007-04-23 13:24:27
107.   Benaiah
103 - Garvey is pretty one to one with Konerko for his career, and it lasted longer. Paulie isn't that consistent.
2007-04-23 13:26:31
108.   dzzrtRatt
rats, a minute too slow.

88 I was a little skeptical when Ned picked up Nomar, but I think I'm finally sold. I do not think his best years are necessarily behind him. I've finally reached the point where seeing him on deck makes me think happy thoughts. An MVP type season from Nomar seems completely doable.

I just hope we can stash Loney in the outfield for a few years until Nomar is finally done.

2007-04-23 13:29:13
109.   D4P
Alyssa: the Anti-Danica...?

I'm not particularly concerned with baseball's game of numbers. I only check the box score if I couldn't watch the game (which means rarely).

2007-04-23 13:29:13
110.   ToyCannon
107
Paulie had one real down year in 2003 but other then that once his career got going he's been very consistent with 3 straight years of an EQA over 300 going from 300 to 312 to 314. Garvey had two in his entire career (301 & 303).
2007-04-23 13:29:42
111.   JT Dutch
I think it should be rather obvious that Garvey was the best 1B since the team moved to L.A. Parker is second, Karros third.

Garvey didn't deserve the 1974 MVP (he wasn't even the best player on his team, Jim Wynn was) and he certainly didn't deserve the multiple Gold Gloves, but he was the most consistent performer offensively and defensively.

Parker was excellent defensively and better with the bat than most realize. Karros was a little better with the bat than Parker, and a worse defender (although Karros was classically an underrated fielder at 1B).

2007-04-23 13:41:05
112.   Benaiah
110 - Their career OPS+ are identical. I don't know if EQA adjusts for era. I am not a big EQA fan in general.
2007-04-23 13:41:08
113.   ToyCannon
Nice story over at Bronx Batter about Paul Blair one of my favorite players to ever watch play CF.
2007-04-23 13:41:51
114.   gibsonhobbs88
111 - I mostly agree with you except to say Garvey didn't deserve the multiple Gold Gloves. While Cey and Lopes were pretty steady with accurate throws to first, I would close my eyes every time Russell got ready to throw. Garvey saved his bacon countless times and as long as Garvey didn't have to throw, he was strong on defense. Of course, Keith Hernandez eventually wrenched the Gold Glove away from Garvey in the late 70's, early 80's because he could do it all (while snorting coke):)!!
I am getting scared now about JP. I first thought, okay, we may have to live with his Venus de Milo arm, but he can at least run down and catch a lot of balls that Lofton misread. Does JP need glasses? Why is he so poor getting a read on balls hit his way?
Besides the easy one he dropped yesterday, the one he let fall in the 6th or 7th after LaRoche's homer led to another run and that ball looked catchable when it left the bat.
JP is making Lofton look like Willie Mays out there. OF defense in left and center and 3B are definitely our "two achilles heels" right now.
2007-04-23 13:43:08
115.   ToyCannon
112
If you don't know what EQA entails how can you be a fan or not a fan? I could understand a neutral position.
2007-04-23 13:47:21
116.   Jon Weisman
112 - EQA does adjust for era. Why are you down on it?
2007-04-23 13:47:38
117.   bhsportsguy
105 That was another reason why some fans tend to downplay Karros, his tenure and contract caused the Dodgers to make a deal they really didn't need at that time.

I know one of the things people look at is the lack of power on the Dodgers so a key for them is to keep Nomar and Jeff in the lineup.

I may get blasted for saying this but Nomar is probably among the top ten best batters to have up in a run scoring opportunity in the game today. I think sometimes we tend to downplay batting average but Nomar is a player that when healthy, he is a very good if not excellent run producer. And Kent also does well.

So for the Dodgers to fall back to earth in that regard, the question really is, is this year that Nomar, Kent and to a lesser degree Luis Gonzalez start their descents and that is not balanced by continued improvement by the Martins, Ethiers and whoever plays 3B.

That will be one of many things to watch for but at least for now, everyday that Nomar and Kent are healthy, is a good sign for the Blue Crew.

2007-04-23 13:48:38
118.   Benaiah
115 - I have read a Tango Tiger article about EQA, and apparently it has a nonsense adjustment to make it look like batting average and it breaks down at the extremes. It convinced me that EQA wasn't a very good statistic. Linear weights are better, OPS+ is easier to understand and in general, I just don't like EQA. That said, I can't remember if EQA adjusts for era, or whether it is something like a linear weight.
2007-04-23 13:50:27
119.   Jon Weisman
OPS+ doesn't incorporate basestealing, so while I like it more than OPS, it falls off there.
2007-04-23 13:50:56
120.   D4P
Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. EQA considers batting as well as baserunning, but not the value of a position player's defense. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty
2007-04-23 13:54:24
121.   Benaiah
Here is the article I mentioned:

"Why is EQA so complicated?"

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/why_is_eqa_so_complicated/

2007-04-23 13:57:25
122.   Benaiah
121 - There is a link in that article that leads here, which I have read once, but don't want to go through again, about why EQA isn't technically sound.

http://gosu02.tripod.com/id13.html

2007-04-23 14:01:22
123.   Benaiah
122 - That article is extremely math heavy, and I like math. However, the conclusion is this:

"Personally, I don't like EQA because it distorts the relationship between players:

PLAYER R/O EQA

A .2 .276

B . .3 .325

Player B has a R/O 1.5x that of player A, but his EQA is only 1.18x player Bs-the 2.5th root of 1.5."

2007-04-23 14:04:01
124.   ToyCannon
I'd love to see a breakdown of the stat's that we throw out and the + and - for each one.
Bill James - Win Shares(Offense+Defense)
BP/EQA - offense
BP/VORP - offense
OPS+ - offense
BP/WARP-
Bill James RC/G - to many sites use different versions
2007-04-23 14:08:59
125.   Benaiah
119 - Just using Andrew's linear weight numbers, it becomes apparent that steals have a negligible effect on a player's value.

Here are the runs added by two events.
Stolen Base 0.178
Caught Stealing -0.441

Last year Jose Reyes had 64 SB and he was caught 17 times.

His steals are worth 11.392 runs, and his caught steals cost 7.497, so the steal leader is worth an extra 3.895 runs for the year.

By comparison a Hit by Pitch is worth 0.342 runs, and the league leader, Rickie Weeks, had 19, worth a total of 6.498 runs. So even hit by pitches end up adding more runs than steals.

2007-04-23 14:15:07
126.   Benaiah
125 - To be fair Dave Roberts had 49 steals and was only caught 6 times, for a total run value over 6. That is a guy who attempts 55 steals and succeeds almost 90% of the time, just to add almost as much value as the league leader in HBP.
2007-04-23 14:18:44
127.   bhsportsguy
125 But to be fair to the stolen base is good crowd, wouldn't it be fair to examine each situation that the stolen base or caught stealing occurred and see its outcomes versus how many times did Weeks getting hit result in a positive outcome.

I think that is my biggest problem with that kind of blanket analysis is that on a case by case basis, it might the turn out the way the values says it will.

2007-04-23 14:21:36
128.   bhsportsguy
Of course my little comment 127 kind of sums the stats vs. scouts issue anyway.
2007-04-23 14:22:03
129.   Benaiah
127 - Do you mean looking at Win Probability situations before and after certain events? I don't know if anyone has done a linear weights type of thing for Win Expectancy, maybe because it would encorporate a lot of "clutchiness" into the mix. However, linear weights themselves are built on the history run outcomes of baseball events. Historically, a steal adds x, a home run add y, a strike out subtracts z, ect.
2007-04-23 14:26:15
130.   Fallout
I think that the Dodgers have a good shot to consistently win because of their bullpen depth. The guys who are hurt are going to press the ones on the current roster. "...pitching is inherently unstable" is true but the Dodgers have so much potential to draw from...

Last year I felt that the Dodgers needed to keep 2 of 3 players healthy to win. That was Kent, Drew and Mueller. (Funny how 2 of them aren't even on this year's team.)
This year I would say that Kent, Martin and Furcal are the keys. Why not Garciaparra? He's a first baseman with what I think is a fine backup in James Loney. If he was playing third, he would be on my list.
This team really needs some production from third base to be solid.

2007-04-23 14:27:27
131.   D4P
127
If you consider context for stolen bases, shouldn't you then do it for all other stats as well?
2007-04-23 14:31:56
132.   Benaiah
131 - I don't think context matters as much as you would think. For every time Dave Roberts steals second in game 4 of the ALCS, there would be 4-5 times when someone would get caught stealing and end the game or the inning. I absolutely believe that a steal can be a game changing force, but usually it isn't and 90-95% hitter's value is found in OPS+.
2007-04-23 14:33:49
133.   D4P
132
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that context be considered, just pointing out that if it IS considered for stolen bases, it should be considered across the board.
2007-04-23 14:35:42
134.   Benaiah
133 - What is the ratio of game winning home runs to game winning stolen bases?
2007-04-23 14:37:57
135.   D4P
134
Um, 3.142857...?
2007-04-23 14:41:07
136.   bhsportsguy
134 I think my comment was directed more towards the HBP comparison but your point is well taken.
2007-04-23 14:46:47
137.   bhsportsguy
Just to close out the thoughts on former Dodgers on the DL, ESPN.com reports that both Gagne and Bradley went on the DL today (and for the A's, Rich Harden too).
2007-04-23 14:49:18
138.   capdodger
132 133 You also can't forget those key stolen bases before walks.
2007-04-23 14:55:17
139.   Bluebleeder87
112,115,{116} ToyCannon & Jon piling on poor Beniah. :o)
2007-04-23 15:03:48
140.   ToyCannon
139
Beniah gave the best response I've ever seen on this board when asked Why?
2007-04-23 15:15:05
141.   Bluebleeder87
140

He was well informed on EQA from the comments I read.

2007-04-23 15:26:30
142.   chazmac138
Can EQA stand for Everybody Quit Already! Let's get back to dogging Pierre and his chicken wing arm,Goonzo's inevitable decline, what Mike Kinkade has been up to lately, and most importantly, whatever happened to Trinidad Hubbard?
2007-04-23 15:26:40
143.   imperabo
I agree with the criticism of EQA. I'd like it fine if it was normed to 100 like OPS+. Norming it with BA is completely pointless to me. We're supposed to have an intuitive grasp of what a good/bad/average BA is, but that changes by era anyway. I'll take the metric system thank you.
2007-04-23 15:27:50
144.   Bob Timmermann
Trenidad Hubbard recently won a Pulitzer Prize for biography writing.
2007-04-23 15:32:18
145.   Jon Weisman
For my part, I have a better sense of what a .300 EQA means than what a 125 OPS+ means.

I may have to take Benaiah's word for it as far as the objective problems with EQA, but I find the scale quite pleasing in how you can aesthetically substitute it for batting average.

2007-04-23 15:33:32
146.   Bluebleeder87
144

isn't he still playing down in Mexico?

2007-04-23 15:34:52
147.   imperabo
145 I agree it's a mater of taste, and if it gets some people to accept a comprehensive state of the art stat who might otherwise be resistant then it could be a good thing.
2007-04-23 15:45:14
148.   Bob Timmermann
Mike Kinkade won a Nobel Prize in Economics for a study on the effects of getting hit by a pitch extra times in an effort to get an increased salary. He shared it with Craig Biggio.
2007-04-23 15:48:36
149.   trainwreck
Reading that article on EQA made me feel like a moron.
2007-04-23 15:50:37
150.   D4P
149
I bet you picked CroCop to win the other night, too
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-04-23 15:52:21
151.   Benaiah
140 - Thanks, it is easier when you have someone like Tangotiger backing you up.

149 - The second is incredibly dense. I read through the whole thing once upon a time, didn't really understand it, but it seemed right.

2007-04-23 15:52:55
152.   trainwreck
I was watching the fight at a betting room in Vegas. I immediately jumped out of my seat and went looking for my friends who went to go eat food to tell them what happened.
2007-04-23 15:54:26
153.   trainwreck
151
He makes it easier to understand at the end thankfully.
2007-04-23 15:54:27
154.   D4P
152
I think Gonzaga is probably for real, but I also think CroCop hasn't been the same fighter in the UFC that he was in PRIDE.
2007-04-23 15:55:14
155.   trainwreck
Gonzaga had perfect game plan. CroCop absolutely hates when fighters are really aggressive against him.
2007-04-23 15:55:42
156.   Icaros
That was one of the sickest KOs I've ever seen. If I concentrate hard enough on the image of his leg twisting under itself, I can make myself pass out.
2007-04-23 15:58:11
157.   ToyCannon
145
I agree on that.

The whole best stat thing is fascinating to me but I expect 99% of the baseball public couldn't care less.

2007-04-23 15:58:58
158.   screwballin
I agree with the criticism of EQA. I'd like it fine if it was normed to 100 like OPS+.

I don't see how adjusting the baseline makes it any less effective, and I agree with Jon that it definitely makes it more understandable.

2007-04-23 16:09:14
159.   Marty
I saw that KO on Deadspin. Not my cup of tea.
2007-04-23 16:10:27
160.   Marty
RIP David Halberstam.

From a car crash, sad.

2007-04-23 16:15:53
161.   trainwreck
It is a good thing I could not persuade my friends to go to a 51's game since the team was in Sacramento.
2007-04-23 16:17:51
162.   das411
FYI tonight's ESPN game (at least on the East Coast-ish out here) is Yankees @ Tampa Bay, get a good look at your favorite future Dodgers everybody!
2007-04-23 16:20:18
163.   Benaiah
158 - I don't think that is the real problem, its scale is somewhat meaningless. The 100 scale is pretty simple, a 105 OPS+ means the player performed 5% better than a 100 OPS+. A .315 EQA isn't 5% better than a .300 EQA. It is probably more like 10-15% better.
2007-04-23 16:20:51
164.   Jon Weisman
160 - That's awful.
2007-04-23 16:21:15
165.   Andrew Shimmin
That's awful.
2007-04-23 16:23:50
166.   Andrew Shimmin
Oops.

Not nearly the worst thing about it, but certainly something I'm dreading, is who the networks are going to put on the air to talk about it. Halberstam deserved to outlive his peers.

2007-04-23 17:00:43
167.   Jim Hitchcock
Apologies if this has been covered, but did anyone hear the story of Vin Scully covering Sandy Koufax' first no hitter on NPR this morning?

Apparently, a guy named Guvercallo (sp?) found the reel to reel tape while cleaning out his dads garage. It's going in the Dodger
archives.

2007-04-23 17:29:25
168.   underdog
So the Yankees are calling up Philip Hughes to pitch Thursday (if anyone's fantasy team needs a spot starter, too). Seems a little early for him but on the other hand he has to do better than the two guys they tossed out there this weekend.
2007-04-23 17:37:03
169.   Andrew Shimmin
Rats. That's pretty much the end of my master plan.
2007-04-23 17:42:03
170.   underdog
Which was...?
2007-04-23 17:42:39
171.   trainwreck
You can't pick him up in the DT league until he plays. I tried hours ago.
2007-04-23 17:43:48
172.   underdog
Look out NL West! The Padres called up former Dodger Oscar Robles today.
http://padres.scout.com/2/638086.html

(PS: Does anyone think that, er, may not be Oscar in that Scout.com photo? Sure doesn't look like him to me.)

2007-04-23 17:45:18
173.   Bob Timmermann
172
That's a photo of Marcus Giles.
2007-04-23 17:46:39
174.   Andrew Shimmin
170- Trade them the dregs of our rotation for something shiny and new. Admittedly, it wasn't much of a master plan to begin with, but it was mine.
2007-04-23 17:47:58
175.   Andrew Shimmin
173- It could be Robles wearing Giles' jersey as a Halloween costume.
2007-04-23 17:52:15
176.   underdog
...and blonder and paler, yeah, I can see that now.
2007-04-23 17:53:59
177.   dzzrtRatt
Really sad about Halberstam.

In addition to his fine sports books and his famous Vietnam book, his "The Powers that Be" is a great history of four news media organizations: the NY Times, the Washington Post, CBS and the LA Times. Reading the chapters on the LA Times would provide a great basic education on the history of Los Angeles for anyone who needed one.

2007-04-23 18:08:42
178.   underdog
Another AL East pitchers' duel there in Tampa today. Sheesh.
2007-04-23 18:12:57
179.   Marty
This is interesting:

ATLANTA - The Atlanta Braves are selling ticket packages with 90-day, interest-free financing.

The plan announced Monday is limited to ticket packages worth at least $200.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277788/

2007-04-23 18:20:11
180.   D4P
179
Interesting, yet interest-free at the same time...?
2007-04-23 18:23:22
181.   Bob Timmermann
What happens if people default on their payments?

Do the Braves get the right to pelt you with garbage during the game?

2007-04-23 18:25:28
182.   Gen3Blue
Whoa! the Yanks are in truly desperate need of interim early season starting pitching, and possibly for the longer term!
2007-04-23 18:28:35
183.   Andrew Shimmin
If the Dodgers did that, you could gladly pay them Tuesday for all the hot dogs you could eat, today.
2007-04-23 18:31:09
184.   Benaiah
"Parking is 15 dollars, sir."
"Could I have a loan application, please?"
2007-04-23 18:32:01
185.   Bob Timmermann
184
Are you familiar with our state's usury laws?

Usu-what?

Silly me, imaginary word!

2007-04-23 18:32:22
186.   Benaiah
Ugh. I can not believe how stupid "The Real Wedding Crashers" looks. Yet, I expect it to be a huge hit.
2007-04-23 18:33:13
187.   D4P
Most huge hits are stupid
2007-04-23 18:34:22
188.   natepurcell
just a reminder, there is a dodgers chat tomorrow at 2PT with our new farm director De Jon Watson.

I wont be around when that happens but can someone make sure to ask him how Elbert is doing and the time table on his injury or something related to that. Thanks!

2007-04-23 18:37:09
189.   D4P
Jimmy Rollins needs a double for the cycle. I'll never remember what color the alert is.
2007-04-23 18:37:26
190.   Benaiah
187 - Is it because most people who consume media (since bad movies are hits too) are stupid, or is it because most people in general are stupid?
2007-04-23 18:39:10
191.   Benaiah
189 - Yellow?
2007-04-23 18:39:44
192.   Andrew Shimmin
189- Orange.
2007-04-23 18:40:50
193.   preacherroe
Re:great Dodger firstbasemen.IMHO-

1)Parker played in a pitcher's era.Wasn't that around the time that Bob Gibson had about a 1.60 ERA for the season.He was smooth at firstbase.

2)I think Garvey was a far better all around player than Karros.Can anybody remember offhand a clutch hit from Karros?

3)If Brock and Stubbs even jokingly are getting props what about Mike Marshall?

4)If alltime Dodgers what about Dolph Camilli?For that matter what about Wally Moon and Frank Howard in LA?

2007-04-23 18:40:50
194.   preacherroe
Re:great Dodger firstbasemen.IMHO-

1)Parker played in a pitcher's era.Wasn't that around the time that Bob Gibson had about a 1.60 ERA for the season.He was smooth at firstbase.

2)I think Garvey was a far better all around player than Karros.Can anybody remember offhand a clutch hit from Karros?

3)If Brock and Stubbs even jokingly are getting props what about Mike Marshall?

4)If alltime Dodgers what about Dolph Camilli?For that matter what about Wally Moon and Frank Howard in LA?

2007-04-23 18:41:07
195.   Andrew Shimmin
I thought triple was yellow. Double was Orange. Single was Red. But now I don't remember home run, so that could be orange. Or whatever comes between yellow and orange.
2007-04-23 18:41:30
196.   natepurcell
OT but when do puppy boxers understand that they arent little lap dogs and when their 70lb bodies climb on top of you, they crush all your manood?
2007-04-23 18:43:21
197.   preacherroe
Sorry for the double post.That's what I get for bringing up Dolph Camilli from the pre-Cambian age.
2007-04-23 18:43:28
198.   D4P
Is it because most people who consume media (since bad movies are hits too) are stupid, or is it because most people in general are stupid?

Good question. Either explanation is plausible.

2007-04-23 18:44:26
199.   Gen3Blue
Whoa! and the Yanks need bullpen help too.
2007-04-23 18:48:28
200.   Suffering Bruin
On on off day... 200 posts!
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-04-23 18:49:02
201.   Bob Timmermann
A double missing for the cycle is an Orange Alert.

If you need a single, it's a Red Alert
If you need a double, it's an Orange Alert
If you need a triple or homer, it's a Yellow Alert.

2007-04-23 18:50:03
202.   Gen3Blue
190 an excelennt discusion leading to the concept of sets and subsets!
193 And Gil Hodges, where any discussion end.
2007-04-23 18:50:09
203.   Bob Timmermann
I am going to downgrade the Cycle Alert to a Yellow Alert for Rollins since he likely won't bat again.
2007-04-23 18:51:15
204.   D4P
I'd like to calculate the following ratio for each team:

Total pitcher salaries / Total non-pitcher salaries

Does anyone know of an easy way to do this without having to actually calculate the numerator and denominator for each team by adding up individual salaries?

2007-04-23 18:53:24
205.   Gen3Blue
Whoa, the Yanks need pitching period. They would be so glad to get two so-so starters and a third baseman or prospect for the sure to bolt A-rod. But no one has either the payroll or the desire to work with A-rods agent. So they can sit on it.
2007-04-23 18:53:32
206.   Bob Timmermann
Wally Moon played just 33 games at first for the Dodgers and Frank Howard played just 11.
2007-04-23 18:54:00
207.   Benaiah
195 - Oh, I guess I had it backwards. I thought that green was better, like a single is green.
2007-04-23 18:54:07
208.   D4P
I'd be inclined to give triples and homers a different color, such that the respective colors reflect the relative scarcity of triples compared to homers
2007-04-23 18:55:07
209.   Suffering Bruin
160 Wow.

Halberstam is without question one of this countries greatest journalists. This is a baseball site so it should be said that he was far more careful, far more interested in the minutiae of politics and history than he ever was in baseball where his interest was on a macro level. That's being kind because his baseball books, in truth, were carelessly researched.

But you can't ever say that about his historical works. Now as much as ever (in my opinion, more than ever) it's important for journalists to be good at what they do. The death of Halberstam is a huge loss to the profession and to the country.

2007-04-23 18:55:28
210.   D4P
How much would the Yankees be willing and able to pay Clemens for half a season?
2007-04-23 18:55:44
211.   Andrew Shimmin
204- You could tell us to make ourselves useful and do it for you. Sometimes that works.
2007-04-23 18:58:16
212.   Gen3Blue
Of course if the Yanks can take being below .500 in May or June as the Red Sox pull away, they can stand pat and hope their old starters recover.
2007-04-23 19:00:12
213.   Bob Timmermann
Jayson Werth must reach safely to give Rollins a chance and restore the Orange Alert.
2007-04-23 19:01:55
214.   Gen3Blue
The way things are going maybe 50 mil. Unless someone rational marries Georges daughter fast.
2007-04-23 19:02:17
215.   Gen3Blue
214 responds to 210
2007-04-23 19:03:32
216.   Bob Timmermann
Cycle alert canceled.

Stand down.

2007-04-23 19:06:20
217.   D4P
You could tell us to make ourselves useful and do it for you

Or, I could just say "You do the math"

2007-04-23 19:10:01
218.   Bob Timmermann
The Yankees have GIDPed for the cycle tonight.

They have hit into a 6-4-3, 4-6-3, 5-4-3, and a 3-6-3 DP tonight.

2007-04-23 19:10:30
219.   Gen3Blue
Poor A-rod. Not much of a career. If he takes up most of a teams payroll, it doesn't work. If he goes where pay means nothing, it doesn't work. It may well be that only his career stats will work.
2007-04-23 19:14:27
220.   Gen3Blue
I had a comment, but the Yanks could still win so it would be improvident.( if thats a word --perhaps imprudent is better.). So I will just say that in any case, their pitching is horrendous at this time.
2007-04-23 19:16:01
221.   underdog
218 The Yankees aren't even doing well at Texas Hold 'em tonight, for that matter.

Maybe Andrew's sinister master plan won't work exactly as planned, since they'd be loathe (or idiotic) to trade away good pitching, but perhaps we could steal a good position player away in exchange for a 5th starting pitcher/middle reliever over the age of 26.

2007-04-23 19:16:49
222.   Bob Timmermann
Picking up D-Backs castoffs to fill your bullpen (Messrs. Vizcaino and Bruney) is not a key to success.
2007-04-23 19:16:50
223.   underdog
Good news everyone (as Professor Farnsworth would say), my Las Vegas 51s shirt has arrived.

I can now win the Most Obscure Baseball Shirt Worn to the Office Award.

2007-04-23 19:20:13
224.   Benaiah
Heroes is so-so tonight. No spoilers, but I guess I expected more or maybe the hiatus makes it hard to get too invested. I have to ramp up my interest.
2007-04-23 19:21:15
225.   Marty
Heroes is back? I'd forgotten what happened it has been so long. Curious programming move.
2007-04-23 19:26:08
226.   Benaiah
Is it because most people who consume media (since bad movies are hits too) are stupid, or is it because most people in general are stupid?

Now that I think about it, the best explanation is that a great many intelligent people are stupid in their media consumption. Many smart people I know don't have much of a filter on their media consumption. If one's opinions on art in the media is something like "truthiness," where the gut reaction is the primary concern, than the aesthetic standard will probably just be enough spectacle to prevent changing the channel.

2007-04-23 19:33:03
227.   D4P
The "smart" way to avoid getting sucked into watching bad TV is to not watch bad TV in the first place. Then there's no fear of the spectacle preventing the channel change.
2007-04-23 19:34:50
228.   Bob Timmermann
#14 for A-Rod.
2007-04-23 19:37:23
229.   D4P
Given the team's losing record, ARod apparently doesn't hit True Yankee homeruns
2007-04-23 19:39:25
230.   Gen3Blue
The Yankees lose! Theeeeahhh Yankees lose! Allright. Panic should begin in Doodle-town.
2007-04-23 19:39:39
231.   Benaiah
227 - A lot of my friends have an ironic appreciation for bad television (like MTV for example), so bad television is good television to them. I just wish more people wanted to really think about a movie or show after they watched it. There is not a lot to discuss about most reality shows, the best that can be said is they fill up the days between now and dying. So if you are sell your time really cheaply, and I do, there you go.
2007-04-23 19:42:18
232.   trainwreck
I find 24 to be terrible, yet I watch it a lot.

I get some kind of sick pleasure watching a show I find to be laughably bad, yet so many people like it.

2007-04-23 19:43:13
233.   preacherroe
206-Gosh Bob,got me there....next thing you're going to tell me Dolph Camilli sold roasted chestnuts outside Ebbets Field.
2007-04-23 19:43:38
234.   Benaiah
229 - Why is he batting 5th? Is Joe Torre insane?
2007-04-23 19:46:15
235.   D4P
ARod has batted cleanup all season thus far
2007-04-23 19:47:03
236.   Benaiah
232 - I really don't get 24. It is terrible on nearly every level, though I know tons of people who swear by it. I thought "Studio 60" was terrible, but I still watched it every week. It was just the right kind of terrible; it took itself so seriously, and yet was ridiculous.
2007-04-23 19:47:50
237.   Benaiah
235- Sorry, ESPN box score tripped me up.
2007-04-23 19:48:38
238.   Bob Timmermann
236
"24" is terrible, but this year it has been terrible in a way that is not even entertaining.
2007-04-23 19:49:12
239.   Bob Timmermann
233
I bought a roasted chestnut from Dolph Camilli, but it was at the Polo Grounds.
2007-04-23 19:51:26
240.   Gen3Blue
232 is 24 network?
2007-04-23 19:52:43
241.   trainwreck
Yeah, it is on Fox.
2007-04-23 19:54:14
242.   Benaiah
ARod through 18 games:

.400/.465/1.068, 14 Home Runs and 34 RBI, on pace for 126 home runs, 306 RBI and 270 hits.

All I can say is that his ISOpatience looks a little weak for such a premiere hitter ;)

2007-04-23 19:56:54
243.   still bevens
Jered Weaver just did a fine Jeff Weaver impersonation for the Angels just now. 5 ER in 1.2 IP.
2007-04-23 20:02:51
244.   Greg Brock
David Halberstam was one of the great historians that made me fall in love with history. I am very sad tonight.

And all this ripping on Greg Brock doesn't help.

2007-04-23 20:03:56
245.   trainwreck
Thanks to Baseball Tonight, I know that A-Rod has hit 13 of his 14 homeruns off fastballs.
2007-04-23 20:04:13
246.   Andrew Shimmin
242- He's been truly Alex Gordon-ian.
2007-04-23 20:06:36
247.   Benaiah
246 - Just like Jeter got even better at defense once A-Rod came to the Yankees, Gordon's presence has lit a fire under fair Alex.
2007-04-23 20:11:12
248.   underdog
I always liked and rooted for Greg Brock, actually, it was just a continual disappointment that he wasn't as good as I, and many others, expected (probably unfairly) him to be. But I always wanted him to be good. Even Franklin Stubbs had some good moments, though he too was a disappointment.

My dad got teary eyed when I told him about David Halberstam tonight. Luckily I didn't also tell him the Yankees score.

2007-04-23 20:11:40
249.   nick
242 having watched many of these games, I can say that basically every one of those base hits was an absolute rocket....but will he get credit for carrying the Yanks now if he has a couple bad weeks in August? I hope so--
2007-04-23 20:13:49
250.   Gen3Blue
Thanks to the Great Turtle. My love of the D's led me to a my Karma. In the ninety's, in order to watch the Dodgers, I got DTV with a dish. At that time you mostly had to forego cable or Network TV. I survived by occasionally seeing a Simpsoms episode at the neighbors and later a few Soprano's episodes. Guess what. I seem to have missed nothing and don't seem deprived( although I may be depraved). I had to make do with shows like Imus, Discover, and Science. Now my (supposedly) adult children brag that they are recording "Planet Earth" in HD on DVD, and are hooked on "The Most Extreme". I probably owe the Dodgers for saving my whole family from network TV. Praise Be.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-04-23 20:14:59
251.   Gen3Blue
241 Thanks train was all I meant to say.
2007-04-23 20:19:18
252.   imperabo
I know it's bordeline impossible, but I think even more than the Dodgers winning the series I would love to see A-rod erase Bonds' single season homer record this year to overshadow Bonds' breaking Aaron's record. That would also make the odds pretty good that A-rod would one day get the carreer record too.
2007-04-23 20:19:39
253.   trainwreck
The Most Extreme is great.
2007-04-23 20:21:07
254.   ToyCannon
Greg Brock was one of my 1st real Dodger prospect downers. I really thought he'd be a better slugger then Garvey and when he hit two dingers against Montreal I thought he had arrived. Instead that was the highlight of his career. His failure shook me up.
2007-04-23 20:23:56
255.   Andrew Shimmin
Don Nelson looks like Boris Yeltsin. That's probably not a novel insight, but there you go.
2007-04-23 20:26:29
256.   regfairfield
24 was a really good show in the first season, and arguably the second.

Now I just watch for the same reason that I watch Hard To Kill.

2007-04-23 20:30:11
257.   Jon Weisman
New post up top, though you all have already commented.
2007-04-23 20:34:15
258.   dodgerkramer1
Why don't the Dodgers just shut down Matt Kemp for a month or two? Before he hurts that shoulder permanently. That's my first reaction to this note in the Times...

Stan Conte, the Dodgers' director of medical services, acknowledged getting "a tad greedy" with the progression of right fielder Matt Kemp's recovery from a separated shoulder.

Kemp had to terminate his rehabilitation assignment with triple-A Las Vegas and return to Los Angeles on Friday when he experienced soreness in his shoulder after making a throw earlier in the week.

"We just went a little quicker than we should have," Conte said. "We found out that he couldn't do what we wanted him to do, and that's why we pulled him back."

2007-04-23 20:51:51
259.   trainwreck
256
You watch 24 to see Steven Seagal run?
2007-04-23 21:01:05
260.   Xeifrank
Was watching the 2nd inning of the Angels game tonight. The Tigers were in the midst of a big rally. My two year old climbed on the couch with me and said she wanted to watch the game. Of course she called it football. I tried to explain how the guy threw the ball and then the guy with the big stick tried to hit it. Right then the camera panned to Gary Sheffield sitting in the dugout. My 2-year old looked at me and asked "Is he in time out?". :)
vr, Xei
2007-04-23 21:03:27
261.   trainwreck
How was your trip Xeifrank? Sorry if you answered this over the weekend.
2007-04-23 21:59:42
262.   Xeifrank
261. I didn't really talk about it yet. I will write something about it in tomorrow's thread. It was a doozy of a trip. Thanks for asking. vr, Xei

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