I feel comfortable in saying that impersonating a member of the opposing team is lame (Rule 1 conscious). vr, Xei

Is Lasorda somebody A-Rod would want on his side on this?

1 It's also something that's been going on since the beginning of time. Guys used to do that in the deadball era too.

If you're against it for safety reasons or whatever, that's cool. But those who are against it because it violates their "old school" sense of propriety are (to be polite) mistaken.

2 - I find the partnership rather intriguing, don't you?

1 - Yeah, it's lame, but I just can't make myself care.

on my sunday league team i would never/have never done that so i'm thinking i would probably be very upset. if you would have done that when i was 16 or 17 years old i would have probably punched you in the face. JBH.

I'm sure some people would be appauled to hear that I just keep laughing everytime I see that play, but I do. Not as funny as the Mark Hendrickson timber balk, though.

All I know is that he's getting a fastball in his ear the next time the Jays see the Yanks. If their manager would challenge Shea Hillenbrand to a fight when he was on his team, you know it's on against a division rival.

I think the most interesting thing about the issue is how split down the middle the reaction seems to be here. As many people seem to think it was totally out of line as think it was perfectly fine. And then there's Jon who just doesn't care.

3. I don't see how I can be "mistaken", when it's just my opinion. Your logic isn't exactly bullet proof. vr, Xei

A workmanlike effort from Evan O'Dorney. He didn't preen. He didn't faint. Nary a magic finger to be found. The young man just went out there and got a job done. A win for the ages.

Booya.

8 I didn't say you, specifically, were mistaken. I said those who rely solely on "old school" knowledge of the unwritten rules to knock the play are by definition mistaken, since that type of play has been going on in baseball since long before any of us were born. I wasn't talking about you, unless you meet that description.

7 -- And of course the split in opinion fell along predictable lines. I was the one who raised the issue here, and before I posted I said to myself that Greg Brock, JoeyP, and GoBears are going to defend A-Rod on this. No great prophetic skills were needed. It just stood to reason that the people who make fun of Colletti for caring about "character" were not going to be botherd by the Hall of Fame-bound superstar acting like a jerk, especially if it helped his team score a run.

9 - Act like you've been there before. Right on.

Maybe it was a tad bush. Maybe you shouldn't get spooked like a nine year old. Instead of using "mine" or "I got it" teams use other words, like "ball" or "Omaha" or "Blue" instead of the normal garbage.

Whatever. It's A-Rod. Everybody's always eager to kill him anyway.

9 I guess it will surprise nobody that all those antics are created specifically for TV. Back in the day, maybe 1 in 100 spellers preened. Now the ratio is nearly the opposite.

10. I'm not against it for "safety" reasons, so what group does that pigeon-hole me in to?
vr, Xei

11 I called three of my friends, each of whom played baseball at D-1 or higher. They all hate A-Rod, and still didn't think it was that big a deal.

Saying that I don't care about "character" stuff is a roundabout way of saying something a little insulting. Maybe it's not what you mean, but that insinutation is there. I care, but it seems that you care about it to a degree that I don't understand.

I don't really appreciate it, but that's okay.

11 - But Lasorda would be considered a character guy (ironic as that may seem). Certainly, he cares about character. So what do you make of that?

Beyond that, I don't think anyone minds a GM caring about character - just when a GM assumes character trumps production, which is something different (and more rare). I mean, wouldn't you rather have A-Rod than Oscar Robles on your team?

15 - Looking at 3, there is still the "whatever" group.

18 There are also those who just think it's lame, without giving out all the old-school blather as a reason. I was assuming Xei was one of those.

I stand by my grouping of it with Hendrickson's balk. It's not anything I'd want in a game, but the replay is hilarious.

So we've got the defenders, the disgusted, the appauled for saftey reasons, the whatevers, and I am in the peanut gallery.

I think it's slightly more interesting to talk about A-Rod's "psych!" moment than it is to talk about the Dodgers' little (ultimate meaningless) bullpen implosion tonight, and probably just as (un)important.

I'm looking forward to seeing Hong-Chad Kuolingsley pitch on Saturday (whoever it is) and hope for a good series against Pittsburgh.

By the way, sorry if someone asked this earlier, but what do we think the odds are that the Dodgers don't send one of the young infielders down to make room for Kuo, but instead (if they do call him up) cut Ramon Martinez? I know it seems kooky because Grady and Colletti are attached to him, or like him, and it might be good for LaRoche or Abreu to get full time action in for awhile, but... is this is another possibility?

21. Looks like it's Guo. I just hope that Grady doesn't choose that day to rest half the regulars like he is prone to do on occasion. If he does, then whatever! :)
vr, Xei

I really think the whole A-Rod situation tells more about people's views of ARod than ARod or anything else. If Jeter or Chipper or Pete Rose, or any other favorite son, did the same thing, sportswriters nation-wide would be crediting his 'toughness,''tenacity,''will to win,'and 'heads-up play.' But since it's the guy that signed with a last place team for a 1/4 billion dollars he's a bad guy.

For Dodger fans, think of it this way, if Russell Martin did this, what would your reaction be, honestly?

Look, if he caught the ball, no one would even know about this incident. But because A-Rod SUCCEEDED - then it's something worth talking about - what does that say? If something succeeding is news, but something failing isn't, then it isn't the the incident that is news, it's the news itself.

I really think the whole A-Rod situation tells more about people's views of ARod than ARod or anything else. If Jeter or Chipper or Pete Rose, or any other favorite son, did the same thing, sportswriters nation-wide would be crediting his 'toughness,''tenacity,''will to win,'and 'heads-up play.' But since it's the guy that signed with a last place team for a 1/4 billion dollars he's a bad guy.

For Dodger fans, think of it this way, if Russell Martin did this, what would your reaction be, honestly?

Look, if he caught the ball, no one would even know about this incident. But because A-Rod SUCCEEDED - then it's something worth talking about - what does that say? If something succeeding is news, but something failing isn't, then it isn't the the incident that is news, it's the news itself. This is just a funny anecdote to tell your kids one day, that's it, don't make it anything more.

22. Ramon Martinez is the emergency 3rd string catcher, but then again who even knows who the backup catcher is.
vr, Xei

24. That question about Martin was asked yesterday. If Martin did it, I would think it was lame and wouldn't feel bad for him if he got plunked with a pitch later on.
vr, Xei

22 I wish it were a possibility, but I don't think it is.

As a utility man, Abreu offers everything Martinez does and then some. But I think they still want him to play every day. I wouldn't mind seeing him spend the rest of the year in LV, getting called up in September, and possibly taking Martinez's spot on a playoff roster (if in fact there is a playoff roster in our future).

It's a pretty good bet that we won't need Martinez next year, because Abreu will be ready for the majors and will serve as an excellent utility infielder in '08 before taking over second base in '09. (I'm operating under the assumption that Kent will get the ABs he needs for his option to vest.)

26 Yeah, that can't be the only reason for keeping him around at this point. Lieberthal barely plays as it is. Heck, they could train someone (Brady Clark?) to be 3rd string catcher. Still, my guess is it probably won't happen.

If Martin did what Arod did, I would have thought it was cool that it worked, in the same way I think it's cool when I am able to get my opponents to commit to an alliance in Risk that is only beneficial to me. As the Romans would say, "Mirabile dictu!" A wonderful thing to talk about!

16 -- What was the insult you think I am painting you with in a roundabout way? I thought I was just stating people's positions matter-of-factly. This is the sort of thing I was wondering about when ToyCannon said I implied he was an idiot some time in the past. That people seem to think I have a tone of hostility in my posts is puzzling me.

So the Giants get Randy Messenger from the Marlins in exchange for Benitez, to make that deal a reality tonight. Sounds like a good deal for all parties. Benitez will be better in Florida I bet, the Giants rid themselves of the object of most of their fans' scorn, and acquire a decent reliever - though not a closer. The Giants still don't have a real closer. Well, as long as they don't shoot the Messenger. Sorry, that sounded funny in my head but not as much now.

>>> Little implied that one reason for being non-committal is the repercussions a callup would have on his current club. If Kuo or D.J. Houlton were promoted, it would likely mean the demotion of another player, perhaps infielders Andy LaRoche or Tony Abreu. <<<

http://tinyurl.com/26oy7q

If Brazoban has to go on the DL would this problem be solved?

33 Possibly, if Hendrickson's moving to the bullpen anyway. Then Kuo would take Brazoban's place on the roster but Hendy's place in the rotation. On the other hand, they may still want another short reliever. Who knows -- this starts to get more complicated than my brain can handle right now so presumably they'll figure this all out soon and let us know how it turned out. ;-)

Night all.

My views are about the same as Casey's.

31 Canuck, it is so not a big deal. But to say that some posters don't care about "character" is, in some ways, an indictment of the posters themselves. As though we could never understand the noble and virtuous aspect of baseball, or, dare I say, life. It's just a bit much.

Of course, I think you're totally obsessed with character, and I just don't get it. As if it's the end-all-be-all of human existence. I'm not. I like flawed people, because I am one. I like players that draw controversy, because the alternative is so absolutely boring.

Again. Not a big deal. You're good people. I hope to be at some point in the future.

And we're not even talking huge character issues here. We're talking about some really small stuff. When it comes to murderers and wife beaters and thugs, well, I don't like them either.

17 -- Lasorda the character guy? I have never heard him talk about the importance of good character, which is not to say he hasn't, but he wouldn't be the first person to pay lip service to virtue while being very far from virtuous. I have always thought of Lasorda as a pretty shady individual. All smiles around the cameras, but a terrible human being out of the spotlight.

And do I have to choose between A-Rod on my team or Oscar Robles? It seems like a false dilemma. So lets make it more realistic: I would rather have Juan Pierre on my team than Milton Bradley. It has caused me real despair over the years, as a Dodger fan, when so many Dodgers -- Darryl Strawberry, Carlos Perez, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown, Milton Bradley, Odalis Perez, etc. -- have been scumbags nobody should root for in life, but on whom I have had to wish success just because of the uniform they were wearing.

That thing that A ROD pulled. I seen it tried many times in the sand lots but I never saw it work.

Character is what you are in the dark. History is made at night.

Bob is always good for a solid Buckaroo Bonzai quote.

No matter where you go, there you are.

35 Awesome. Although it took me about 10 minutes before I got it.

35- I didn't realize your cat had weighed in. Will have to see if he was LATed. . .

For what it's worth (nothing), I'm with StolenMonkey. I think it was funny, and I'll think it's funny when he gets dropped in the next game. It's the gift that keeps on giving; Thanks A-rod!

36 -- Well that clarifies things, so let me state categorically that I don't think fans who downplay players' character faults are themselves immoral. But to me, when I root for baseball players, I don't want to feel like I am just "rooting for laundry." If I hear that a guy is a jerk, is a bad teammate, or is just a "bad sport," it bothers me, and it usually bothers me more if he is really talented, because I think the guy behaves badly out of a sense of being beyond consequences, when a more marginal talent would be conscious of the fact that he has to watch himself or his career is over. There is a reason why Manny Ramirez acting like a fool is dismissed as "Manny being Manny," when it is unthinkable that a misbehaving Oscar Robles would be cut slack because "Oscar is being Oscar." The double standard cuts against my sense of justice and basic fairness.

Better appreciation of Bob's jokes through Google.

http://tinyurl.com/2kron2

45 If you get lost, just scroll to the end of Stengel's testimony.

44 Your post implies that you believe that "hearing" something means it is cold fact. I think one of the problems the non-character-caring folks have is that it's so hard to figure out who is a good guy and who isn't from their portrayals in the media.

44 I'm a big believer in superior performers getting special treatment. Not just in sport...In life. Special treatment is awesome. Double standards are incredibly important. Why should I be treated the same as some buffoon who doesn't do what I can do? What's my incentive to work harder if I'm treated the same as some random nobody? Forget that. You're the best, you get bennies. If other people are jealous, well...Work harder, meat.

Everybody treated equally...what's it called, kids?

COMMUNISM!

Manny should be treated differently. Manny is a Hall of Famer. Brian Daubach is a scrub. You'll get nothing and like it, Daubach.

44--Shouldnt it bother you more if you hear about a player being a philanderer or a wife beater? To refer to Ned as a character guy, is just picking and choosing what traits you think are important.

There are things that are more important than being a 'bad' teammate. In baseball, there really arent any 'bad' teammates. Because in baseball, pretty much everything a player does for himself, is going to help the team too.

What exactly is wrong with Kevin Brown, Manny Ramirez, or Gary Sheffield? All 3 were great players, have world series rings, and their teams probably wouldnt have won the WS without their contributions.

It just stood to reason that the people who make fun of Colletti for caring about "character" were not going to be botherd by the Hall of Fame-bound superstar acting like a jerk, especially if it helped his team score a run.

I value results more than effort.
All capitalists do.

If Manny got four strikes per AB, that'd be a double standard I'd have a problem with. As it is, there is some (if theoretical) penalty for players like Manny being like Manny--money. A good, dependable, salt of the earth kind of superstar would tend to be more highly valued than a flibbertigibbet superstar, no? Two players of equal talent, one's Manny-esque, the other's like, what, LoDuca without the wandering eye? Who gets the bigger pay day?

Would baseball be better if players got suspended, or released (I don't know how much you resent Manny) for taking a bathroom break in the middle of an inning?

44 -- Is it really so hard? What I know about Strawberry, Sheffield, Brown, and Odalis is just from the media, and sometimes their own quoted words in the media. I have yet to hear about a sports "villain" who really just got a bad rap from the media. The media often fail to measure a player's talent accurately, but I think reporters are deadly accurate when it comes to pegging the guys in sports who are bad character people, and more often than not, all the media people have to do is print the player's own words or point a camera at him and the player reveals his own nature.

48 -- Better players get treated differently by how they are paid. That should be enough. In other respects they should be treated the same. Its like a doctor and a homeless man. One guy is more valuable to society, and his salary reflects that, but the two should be held to the same standard by the police when it comes to obeying the law.

51- See now, this I don't get, since you were irritated the other day by Mariano Duncan's antics. You were adamant that everybody just play the game, and keep quiet about it.

48 Better players get treated differently by how they are paid. That should be enough.

Who is the arbiter of what is "enough" in baseball or society? Who gets to decide what "enough" is? The market decides. The workplace decides. Employers decide. You don't get to make that decision, and neither do I. I'm perfectly fine with that.

We could always establish a tribunal of "enough" without letting these things sort themselves out. No thanks.

A-Rod actually causing a player to miss a ball is playing the game.

Duncan just running his mouth isnt.
I dont believe in "getting in the head" of the opponent, especially for an opposing coach.

If you want to yell something that will directly impact a play--fine.

But just general trash talking doesnt help you win games.

51 -- I am a conservative and if I were an American I would be a "right-wing Republican," yet your idea of capitalism sounds like the caricature presented in RoboCop: a liberal's vision of heartless, lawless efficiency.

In an earlier thread, I stated it was bush. I still believe that, but I neglected to state that it is MORE bush - in fact downright pantywaisted - for the Blue Jays to complain about it. You got deked - take it like men and settle your scores as needed at a later time.

48 I've heard Colin Cowherd say something similar. FWIW (close to nothing) mid-morning radio: Colin Cowherd was on ARod's "side" on this; Jim Rome thought it was bush league.

57
Don't knock heartless yet effective society. If not for the Gilded Age, America wouldn't be what it is. The Gilded Age sucked for 8 out of 10 people. The other two people were Carnegie and Vanderbilt.

There is something to be said for a heartless yet effective society. Not that I'm advocating it (I'm not), but everything in its time.

58 Now that I know Cowherd was on A-Rod's side, I've changed my mind. Kill A-Rod.

53 Reporters, like people in all walks of life, tend to overgeneralize based on their own personal experience. Thus players who are nice to reporters are painted as good guys, and those who are not nice to reporters are painted as bad guys. Period. So judging someone's character based on media reports is fine, as long as your only criteria for good character is being nice to journalists.

Tommy Lasorda, since we've been talking about him, is a good example of the disconnect between perception and reality. He was a PR hound, and look at the worshipful treatment he got from the press throughout his career, the occasional Peter Richmond article notwithstanding. Despite the adulation he received from the media, I think many if not most who know him agree that Lasorda is a rather despicable person. (Or is my perceived reality merely a different version of perception? When does perception become reality? We may never know. Somebody ask Liberty Valance. Or Charlie Kaufman.)

Kirby Puckett would be another example.

Another problem is that reporters also realize that the more simple-minded among their readers demand that every character in the drama be depicted as either good or evil. Shades of gray, which obviously exist in real life, do not exist in baseball reporting.

57- If there were an honest to Ch-i rule against distracting an infielder, I don't think anybody would take his side. There isn't. It's not about lawlessness, it's about how to value one moré. I think men who wear shorts in public are irredeemable boors, but I recognize that that's a bit (at least) sanctimonious.

61- Also, Bill Gurnick is a sports reporter. Anybody really want to trust his judgment implicitly?

Shades of gray, which obviously exist in real life, do not exist in baseball reporting.

Or sports reporting in general. Witness the false Kobe Bryant dichotomy - so many are willing to go all-or-nothing in their opinion when the reality is far more subtle, textured and fuzzy at the borders. He is neither entirely to blame nor entirely to credit for any situation the Lakers find themselves in. Is he a good guy? a bad guy? completely selfish and horrible teammate? just trying his hardest to win? Yes, no and somewhere in between, all at once.

61 Spelling, however, is black and white.

63 Bill Gurnick is ten times worse than Ken Gurnick.

It's like the journalistic equivalent of George Stark.

62 I think men who don't wear shorts in public are irredeemable boors.

62 Shorts in public are far less of a problem than what is worn with them.

66- Darn.

What I was going for was. . .

Darn.

For the first and I hope last time, I am in complete agreement with every word of a Bill Plaschke article.

71 -- You weren't in complete agreement with his article about how Nomar should be allowed to go away to make room for Loney? That was the highpoint of the man's career.

Is today Christine Daniels' first piece under the new byline?

71 -- I was refering to post #70 there.

70 Even this part? Rodriguez attempts to knock the ball out of pitcher Bronson Arroyo's glove in the 2004 playoffs, and he's ripped for being unprofessional.

That little move is against the written rules, I think, in which it doesn't bolster Plaschke's argument.

A-Rod's play - slightly bush, not a huge deal, would be nothing if he wasn't behind the player at the time, he should get one in the ear and that should be the end of it

Character guys - I prefer for my players to be warm and fuzzy like Russell, but above any off-the-field problems I want my players to be good teammates.

- I didn't like Bradley because he distracted his teammates and had an attitude on the field - nothing about his arrests made me respect him less as a ballplayer.
- I didn't particularly like Sheffield as a person, but I enjoyed having him on my team because he played hard and performed well.
- Kevin Brown was one of my favorite because he was such a competitor and had such nasty stuff

62 What do you wear when it's hot outside, a skirt?

75 "I didn't like Bradley because he distracted his teammates"

That's a supposition that is supported by absolutely zero evidence. Most of Bradley's teammates have raved about him. It's everyone else who has a problem with him.

76- Same thing I wear every other day. If I have to wear a tie on a hot day, I usually try to get away without wearing a coat.

Plaschke uses only part of the Torre quote. In the AP story, "Said manager Joe Torre: "I don't know what to feel for it. It's not like he said, 'I got it."'"

I've heard people use the first half to show Torre is not backing ARod on this, and others use the second half to show Torre is on ARod's side and saying, essentially that this is no big deal. And ultimately that's it - it's a silly move, but no big deal.

77 It's everyone else who has a problem with him.
Including his (now ex-?) wife.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/1705006.html

78 That's what my father is like, or at least was before retirement. He's 73.

Going back to what I posted in an earlier thread, if Billingsley and Kuo (but especially Billingsley) aren't ready for the "rigors of 200 innings," now, well, then when? How long does the babying have to occur? I mean, this is the major leagues here, what, are the dodgers just going to wait until their 4th season before taking the training wheels off? I mean, Chad pitched like over 160 innings last year right? Why shouldn't he pitch a full season now? I guess I could see the logic with Kuo, considering he's never pitched that many innings, but I don't see it with Chad.

The worst character guy (according to people around me) I ever played with is a reliever with the Marlins. Every single person I know loved him as a teammate. Catching him was the most fun I've ever had as a baseball player. He was the funniest guy I've ever played along side.

If you base your character evalutations on what the press says, well, I'm sorry. There is a distinct possibility that the press doesn't have a clue.

72. Is today Christine Daniels' first piece under the new byline?

No. She has been reporting daily for about a week. In fact, I commented on one of her columns a few days ago (concerning the Dodgers possibly being stuck with both J.D. Drew and Pierre).

Web Spotlight
May 23, 2007
,
...Starting today, check out latimes.com/sports for Christine Daniels' "Day in L.A.," a daily column on the sports...updated throughout the day as events happen. Daniels has covered major sports in the Southland for more...

It's June, now. They're not in line to throw 200IP. Especially from the fifth spot. Keeping their IP down is no longer a good reason for starting somebody else.

84- I remember your blurb, but I must not have followed the link. Often your excerpts satisfy any appetite I might have had for reading the article. For which I thank you. You read the Times so I don't have to!

Despicable struck me as a pretty strong word to use, especially for Lasorda and his p.r. image as a yearly Santa at hospitals among other things. So I looked up the word on line. Immediately under the word Despicable were two two-line ads for "Get Ann Coulter - Free" and "Beware of Hillary Clinton". Funny coincidence? Then I looked up Ethical. Under that was an ad for the Dow Chemical Company. Wow. Individual words are literally bought and paid for. For some reason